Is this the best 9mm defense ammo?

[Mystery]

For M&P shield?
What's your experience?

P9HST1 124 grain.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50805572633_8a8f1bafeb_c.jpg

[revchuck38]

It's not on Doc's list (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo), though the +P version is. The +P version is my choice for 9x19.

[Hambo]

The question right now isn't whether it's the best, or even if it's on Doc's list. It's a matter of what you have or what you can find. It's Federal, it's HST, and I'd carry it without worry.

[Caballoflaco]

The question right now isn't whether it's the best, or even if it's on Doc's list. It's a matter of what you have or what you can find. It's Federal, it's HST, and I'd carry it without worry.

To quote a certain mod out of context “standards are for the good times”

[Sauer Koch]

Actually, he did say it was approved.

If you read the ‘9mm 147gr Approved Duty loads’ sticky thread, post #144

DocGKR
Palo Alto, CA
Prdator--much like with the 124 gr GD, both the standard pressure and +P 124 gr HST work, the +P is a just a bit better for LE duty use and neither are as good as the 147 gr HST. And before you ask, the 147 gr +P HST is not quite as ideal as the standard pressure 147 gr HST.

[RJ]

I’d probably want to make sure it ran in my gun, is all.

But if that was all I had available to me, yes, I’d carry it. As has been said by folks smarter than me, the selection of ‘optimum’ performance SD ammo should be less of a concern than shot placement.

[revchuck38]

Actually, he did say it was approved.

If you read the ‘9mm 147gr Approved Duty loads’ sticky thread, post #144

DocGKR
Palo Alto, CA
Prdator--much like with the 124 gr GD, both the standard pressure and +P 124 gr HST work, the +P is a just a bit better for LE duty use and neither are as good as the 147 gr HST. And before you ask, the 147 gr +P HST is not quite as ideal as the standard pressure 147 gr HST.

Sheesh, you're right. Neither of the standard pressure loads is on the list.

[blues]

FWIW, Doc also said the standard pressure Gold Dot in 124 gr. was fine as well, and he wouldn't hesitate to carry it.

[RJ]

FWIW, Doc also said the standard pressure Gold Dot in 124 gr. was fine as well, and he wouldn't hesitate to carry it.

Ah, I think I remember that now.

I've accumulated a variety of carry ammo over the last 24 months, some due to supply issues, some due to selecting a load that will run in the (various) carry guns. Generally these have all been 4.1" barrel length or less in 9mm. These include Federal HST 147, Speer GD 124+p, 124 standard, and 115 standard. The only hesitation I've had is when the discussion popped up on "concerns" related to the HST 147, the details of which escape me. That brought me to order a few boxes of GD 124+p again. Specifically for the P365, I selected GD 115 for concerns the heavier 147 would not run reliably in the little Sig; so far it's been 100%. However I can't find the 115 at an affordable price, and the few jewel boxes I bought early last year are about out; this is my wife's gun and we are clocking through it at a regular pace. Those 20 round boxes don't last forever.

Still, all of it "works", and should be effective, so I load up what I can get and make sure it runs, then get on with training. Mostly these days that's the GD 124+p.

EDIT TO ADD I will also say I'm very satisfied with the recoil impulse of the +p 124 GD in the Glock 48; it is much softer than I would have thought, and (if I had an unlimited supply) would run it exclusively for SD *and* training. I also have found it groups very well in my pistols.

[Greg]

Some smaller pistols function better with standard pressure ammo.

[blues]

The only ammo I've had issues with in recent years out of a G26, 19 and 17 is Blazer (brass) 115 gr. All other carry and training ammo has worked well, though some are better, (147 gr HST), with accuracy out of my guns.

[JAD]

Standard pressure GD 124s, at least, don't expand out of a G43 -- Chuck Haggard and Tamara demonstrated that to me repeatedly in 2016.

As mentioned, +P loads may not run great in some compact pistols.

Short barrel pistols are not as good as service pistols. Load and carry appropriately.

[Mystery]

So I read a lot of threads before buying the P9HST1.
My options were either that or 147 gr hst.
Lots of articles mentioned 124 gr is better than 147 gr.
Oh well. It's too late to change to 147 gr.

BTW, it's not only for the Shield.
I'll load my M&P M2.0 4" as well.
50 rounds are more than enough for both and still some left over so not going to buy 147 gr anytime soon.

[SAWBONES]

Dunno if 124gr standard pressure Federal HST is "best" or not, but since Doc gave it his approval, and since my daily CCW is a compact gun (Gen 5 G26), it's what I carry, and I long ago squirreled away a case of it, since it's reliable and shoots right to POA.

I don't worry much about any "single best" round. I insist that POI = POA, in my hands, in my gun, and that it's among the known "good options" available, as based on evidence. I'd be OK with Gold Dot short barrel 124gr too.

[Duelist]

Standard pressure GD 124s, at least, don't expand out of a G43 -- Chuck Haggard and Tamara demonstrated that to me repeatedly in 2016.

As mentioned, +P loads may not run great in some compact pistols.

Short barrel pistols are not as good as service pistols. Load and carry appropriately.

And yet, they will still group really well and punch through bone. If that’s what you have, I’d rather use it than ball, or a sharp stick.

[Mystery]

The question right now isn't whether it's the best, or even if it's on Doc's list. It's a matter of what you have or what you can find. It's Federal, it's HST, and I'd carry it without worry.

True.
I went to local store and they were either out of defensive ammo or wanted $2 per round.
Luckily found someone with those Federal HST.

Haven't been to the range for a while so haven't tried these at all from either gun.

[JAD]

And yet, they will still group really well and punch through bone. If that’s what you have, I’d rather use it than ball, or a sharp stick.

Sure. I have avoided the issue by largely putting my subcompacts away. The point isn't that GD is bad, it's that subcompacts should be avoided.

[Elwin]

Dunno if 124gr standard pressure Federal HST is "best" or not, but since Doc gave it his approval, and since my daily CCW is a compact gun (Gen 5 G26), it's what I carry, and I long ago squirreled away a case of it, since it's reliable and shoots right to POA.

I don't worry much about any "single best" round. I insist that POI = POA, in my hands, in my gun, and that it's among the known "good options" available, as based on evidence. I'd be OK with Gold Dot short barrel 124gr too.

Similar to where I'm at. I like simplicity, so I wanted to be able to stock a lot of one load to use in all 9mm guns (was previously using PDX-1 124 +P in larger guns and Gold Dot short barrel loads in small ones). This happens to be that one load for me. Runs great in all my guns, shoots to the sights, is plenty accurate, and is a known performer. That's pretty much everything I need, so all I have to do know is buy it when I see it.

[JBP55]

I have a good supply of 124gr. HST and it works great in my pistols regardless of size.

[revchuck38]

I like simplicity, so I wanted to be able to stock a lot of one load to use in all 9mm guns...Runs great in all my guns, shoots to the sights, is plenty accurate, and is a known performer.


I have a good supply of 124gr. HST and it works great in my pistols regardless of size.

+1, but I went with the +P version and have a decent supply.

[jd950]

Sure. I have avoided the issue by largely putting my subcompacts away. The point isn't that GD is bad, it's that subcompacts should be avoided.

My subcompact/micro guns run fine on both 124 and 147. I prefer 147 generally and particularly in a tiny gun. Not sure why subcompacts should be avoided...

[Mystery]

My subcompact/micro guns run fine on both 124 and 147. I prefer 147 generally and particularly in a tiny gun. Not sure why subcompacts should be avoided...

Is that personal preference or does 147 help with something on subcompact guns?
I can probably get the 147 if it's much superior to the 124 and sell the 124 pack to recoup $$.

[Clusterfrack]

I only use 147gr HST or Win Ranger for defense ammo. Having a subsonic load is a big advantage, with no measurable disadvantages.

[revchuck38]

I only use 147gr HST or Win Ranger for defense ammo. Having a subsonic load is a big advantage, with no measurable disadvantages.

Other than in a suppressor-equipped pistol, what's the advantage? 147s shot high for me when I tried them, most sights seem to be regulated for 124s.

[Clusterfrack]

Other than in a suppressor-equipped pistol, what's the advantage? 147s shot high for me when I tried them, most sights seem to be regulated for 124s.

No suppressor involved. 147 are just not as loud as 124 or especially 124+p.

Sights: I haven't found that--especially in Glocks. Mine shoot POA at 20yds with 147 HST

[revchuck38]

No suppressor involved. 147 are just not as loud as 124 or especially 124+p.

Sights: I haven't found that--especially in Glocks. Mine shoot POA at 20yds with 147 HST

Okay, got it.

[JAD]

My subcompact/micro guns run fine on both 124 and 147. I prefer 147 generally and particularly in a tiny gun. Not sure why subcompacts should be avoided...

In priority order for me:
1) most people shoot service pistols better than subcompacts
2) gun handling (drawing, reloading, clearing malfunctions, running controls) is easier and therefore more reliable with service pistols
3) subcompacts are more vulnerable to shooter induced malfunctions, which are common for even well trained people with reliable pistols in actual shootings
4) bullet expansion may be a factor in terminal performance, and expansion is less reliable in short barrels
5) magazine capacity is generally much less for subcompacts

[jd950]

Is that personal preference or does 147 help with something on subcompact guns?
I can probably get the 147 if it's much superior to the 124 and sell the 124 pack to recoup $$.

It is personal preference and if I could not carry 147, I would not fret over using 124. I find that the 147gr stuff usually has "less" or "better" recoil, and I shoot it better. That is more noticeable to me in tiny guns. The difference is not night and day. I also find that most 147 grain loads have a bit less blast and flash than the 124gr. More objectively, 147 grain defensive ammo has less of a velocity drop as barrel length shortens, compared to lighter bullet loading. So, one "loses" less when going to a smaller gun. This can be confirmed by going to places like the Federal and Speer ballistics charts on their websites, ballistics by the inch and similar internet sources. I doubt there is any measurable effectiveness difference between good 147 and 124gr ammo. Proper bullet design, proper function in your gun, ammunition quality, etc., matters far more.

Generally, I tend to go for the heaviest standard weight in most auto pistol calibers (.40-180 / .45-230) because I think they work well and tend to have a recoil impulse that makes them easier to shoot. For me. I would advocate adding a box of 147 and shooting both weights in your gun, even mixing them in a single magazine some, to see how they do for you and pick what works best for you. If that is not feasible, don't sweat it, spend the energy on being as good as possible with the gun and ammo you have chosen.

[RJ]

Still, all of it "works", and should be effective, so I load up what I can get and make sure it runs, then get on with training. Mostly these days that's the GD 124+p.

EDIT TO ADD I will also say I'm very satisfied with the recoil impulse of the +p 124 GD in the Glock 48; it is much softer than I would have thought, and (if I had an unlimited supply) would run it exclusively for SD *and* training. I also have found it groups very well in my pistols.

In another discussion, GJM referenced this interesting thread on 147 / 124 115 in the G48 and G43, might be relevant to this discussion:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37625-Two-years-with-G43-six-months-with-a-G48

This is the impetus that led me to choose GD 115 for Mrs. RJ's P365, and switch from 147 HST to GD 124+p (carry)/AE 124 (range) for my G48. The G48 is particularly interesting, as it has a 4.1" barrel, but the RSA of the G43/43X. Odd beast.

I still have the multiple boxes of 147 HST put by. In today's climate, I am hanging on to them; since they will run in my bigger Glocks (which include a 19.5 and a 34.5) You know, in case of Zombies.

[jd950]

In priority order for me:


Thank you for expanding on your comment.

1) most people shoot service pistols better than subcompacts
-True, to a point.

2) gun handling (drawing, reloading, clearing malfunctions, running controls) is easier and therefore more reliable with service pistols
-I am not so sure about drawing, since we are probably talking about drawing from concealment, but otherwise, I tend to agree. Shorter guns can be much easier/faster to draw.

3) subcompacts are more vulnerable to shooter induced malfunctions, which are common for even well trained people with reliable pistols in actual shootings
-Highly dependent on gun, caliber and shooter

4) bullet expansion may be a factor in terminal performance, and expansion is less reliable in short barrels
-Highly dependent on caliber, bullet weight, cartridge design

5) magazine capacity is generally much less for subcompacts
-Somewhat caliber dependent, but otherwise I agree. However, this only matters if one feels the greater capacity is of sufficient value.

Like so many things in life, it is a question of compromise. Would I rather be armed with a P226 than Kahr PM9 or MK9 if I had to defend myself with a handgun? Clearly, yes. But, which gun am I likely to carry when I run to the grocery store or go out to dinner (back when we used to be able to go out to dinner)? Which of those would I want to have attached to body armor on duty as a BUG? Which of those can I put in a pocket of sweat pants, shorts or jeans in a little kydex pocket holster?

And of course, life is more complicated than that. If I am in an environment where concealment is not important, and I am wearing slacks or 5.11-type pants, but the threat is low, such as working in an administrative or teaching position in a secure environment, I am likely to carry a compact gun in an owb holster and if I am in the mountains where I may have to contend with two or four legged problems, I am likely to carry something else altogether. As the Brits say, "horses for courses."


I don't think either of us is wrong, we just choose slightly different compromises. I appreciate hearing your thoughts and you make some good points.

[Jason M]

My agency was unable to acquire 147gr HST this ammo cycle. We are confidently carrying 124gr HST. With that being said, I think the last part, and often overlooked part of Doc's list is equally important. Here it is:


The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

[FrankB]

Yeah, it’s clear gel, but it’s something...


https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-124-grain-jhp-hst-federal-premium-20-rounds#geltest

[Default.mp3]

Haven't been to the range for a while so haven't tried these at all from either gun.Wait, are you saying you haven't tested the ammo at all through your guns? Because if so, I'd rectify that immediately if that's what you're loading your guns for. Yes, it's likely to work, but function checking for life-saving equipment should always be done.

[Mystery]

Wait, are you saying you haven't tested the ammo at all through your guns? Because if so, I'd rectify that immediately if that's what you're loading your guns for. Yes, it's likely to work, but function checking for life-saving equipment should always be done.

I just used range ammo and Covid started so never really got chance to shoot anything else.
Also lost job right around that time so just stayed home pretty much the whole year.

[Default.mp3]

I just used range ammo and Covid started so never really got chance to shoot anything else.
Also lost job right around that time so just stayed home pretty much the whole year.I would be wary of using defensive ammo that you've never run through the gun before as actually loaded ammo, simply because you don't know how well the ammo itself will feed and/or eject.

[Mystery]

I would be wary of using defensive ammo that you've never run through the gun before as actually loaded ammo, simply because you don't know how well the ammo itself will feed and/or eject.

Yes each firearm may behave differently but M&P is popular gun and a lot of tests are done with that particular ammo.
I watched this video and went for the 124.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lGqdMdbir0

[4given]

124gr HST standard pressure is what I carry in my Sig 365. 124gr HST +P in my G19

Once I am out of the standard pressure I'll probably just keep it simple and use the +P in both.