My kingdom for a Korth (or Manurhin)?

[jtcarm]

OK, though it’s small, not my whole kingdom.

I’ve been on a decades-long quest for my “perfect” handgun, which I’m certain is a DA revolver.

Don’t ask me what that means, it’s one of those “I’ll know it when I find it” kind of things.

Along the way I’ve picked up all sorts of S&Ws, Rugers, Dan Wessons, and a Colt (which I didn’t like.) Some have been made pretty awesome with some work.

But the quest goes on (face it: what fun would life be if you actually found the holy grail?)

Except now, rather than accumulating more Fords & Chevys to customize , I’m thinking it might be time to just order the European race car.

A medium-frame, 4” .357 checks a lot of boxes for my ideal handgun. That’s probably why I’ve owned so many over the years.

Its doable, if I clean out the safe and resist “bargains” for the next few months.

What does the hive, in its collective and infinite wisdom, think?

[NPV]

I did it on the semi-auto side and couldn’t be happier. By the end of this year I’ll have 3 custom 1911s and nothing else (excluding revolvers). I would be lying if I said temptation hasn’t crept in especially when all the new hotness gets posted but when that happens I just buy ammo and shoot what I have.

Plus nowadays I can’t afford anything after I buy ammo.

[john c]

I've never seen a Korth, but I've fired a Manurhin. It is as good as they say it is; much better than a tuned Smith. People say the Manufrance versions are better than the current Chapuis production, but I have no idea.

[MGW]

A good friend of mine sent me this picture. Roy Huntington did an article on a Korth Mongoose carry and then bought it. According my friend Roy loves it. I’ve seen one in captivity locally. If someone is willing to spend the money I think they’re pretty amazing revolvers.

65793

[Tod-13]

A good friend of mine sent me this picture. Roy Huntington did an article on a Korth Mongoose carry and then bought it. According my friend Roy loves it. I’ve seen one in captivity locally. If someone is willing to spend the money I think they’re pretty amazing revolvers.
65793

I got my wife the 4" Mongoose for her birthday.

And then got myself a 6" Super Sport.

My wife is tiny with small hands -- and the Mongoose and Kimber K6s have triggers she can actually fire double action.

[Pol]

OK, though it’s small, not my whole kingdom.

I’ve been on a decades-long quest for my “perfect” handgun, which I’m certain is a DA revolver.

Don’t ask me what that means, it’s one of those “I’ll know it when I find it” kind of things.

Along the way I’ve picked up all sorts of S&Ws, Rugers, Dan Wessons, and a Colt (which I didn’t like.) Some have been made pretty awesome with some work.

But the quest goes on (face it: what fun would life be if you actually found the holy grail?)

Except now, rather than accumulating more Fords & Chevys to customize , I’m thinking it might be time to just order the European race car.

A medium-frame, 4” .357 checks a lot of boxes for my ideal handgun. That’s probably why I’ve owned so many over the years.

Its doable, if I clean out the safe and resist “bargains” for the next few months.

What does the hive, in its collective and infinite wisdom, think?

Cannot speak for Korth, but I did buy a Manurhin. I then almost immediately bought two more and sold most of my S&W's. I'm keeping my "semi-collectable" S&W's, a few that have sentimental value, and my CCW guns. Other than that, they are of no value to me anymore. The Manurhin exceeds an S&W in every measurable parameter by a wide margin. I am simply not interested in shooting S&W's anymore. (ditto for my Pythons, Dan Wessons, Freedom Arms, Rugers etc.)

In short, if you can afford it, you owe it to yourself. YMMV, but to me it was a revelation.

Ps. I will be buying a Ratzeburg Korth (original Willie Korth design) in the future, as well as a couple more Manurhins. As many as I can afford.

[jtcarm]

I've never seen a Korth, but I've fired a Manurhin. It is as good as they say it is; much better than a tuned Smith. People say the Manufrance versions are better than the current Chapuis production, but I have no idea.

That is a problem with both guns; finding one to try.

Seems like when I researched it a while back, there was no U.S. importer for Chapuis.

[Scal]

Does anyone here have any information about the difference, if any, between the Chapuis versus Manurhin manufactured MR-73s? I don’t think that there has been anything conclusive, but I have heard complaints about the Chapuis made ones being less durable than their predecessors.

[jtcarm]

Cannot speak for Korth, but I did buy a Manurhin. I then almost immediately bought two more and sold most of my S&W's. I'm keeping my "semi-collectable" S&W's, a few that have sentimental value, and my CCW guns. Other than that, they are of no value to me anymore. The Manurhin exceeds an S&W in every measurable parameter by a wide margin. I am simply not interested in shooting S&W's anymore. (ditto for my Pythons, Dan Wessons, Freedom Arms, Rugers etc.)

In short, if you can afford it, you owe it to yourself. YMMV, but to me it was a revelation.

Ps. I will be buying a Ratzeburg Korth (original Willie Korth design) in the future, as well as a couple more Manurhins. As many as I can afford.

Where do you find the Manurhins? Are they used?
I didn’t think there was anyone importing them to the U.S.

[Half Moon]

Where do you find the Manurhins? Are they used?
I didn’t think there was anyone importing them to the U.S.

There's at least two importers I'm aware of:

https://kebcollc.com/

https://jjperodeau.com/store/?model_number=HA03543-HA03442-HA03034

They bring in small batches every few months. Prices are high. Very tempted by one but at that cost not sure I want to chance it.

[jh9]

There's at least two importers I'm aware of:

https://kebcollc.com/

https://jjperodeau.com/store/?model_number=HA03543-HA03442-HA03034

They bring in small batches every few months. Prices are high. Very tempted by one but at that cost not sure I want to chance it.

I was racking my brain trying to come up with who it was that imported them on armslist. Kebco. (Turns out it also wasn't armslist, but gunsinternational).

https://www.gunsinternational.com/kebco/-.cfm

$3200 is cheaper than the Nighthawk Korths by a fair bit.

I dry fired a Mongoose at SGC since they had one in the case. Very whelming. Not over, not under. Not for $4k.

[Pol]

I was racking my brain trying to come up with who it was that imported them on armslist. Kebco. (Turns out it also wasn't armslist, but gunsinternational).

https://www.gunsinternational.com/kebco/-.cfm

$3200 is cheaper than the Nighthawk Korths by a fair bit.

I dry fired a Mongoose at SGC since they had one in the case. Very whelming. Not over, not under. Not for $4k.


Dry firing a new gun like a Korth or Manurhin won't tell you much. They have very tight tolerances and tool steeled lockwork, which takes many many thousands of rounds to bed in.

It also takes a couple of trips to the range for a shooter to appreciate the way the trigger provides feedback. It's not something you're going to discern in the short time spent on a showroom floor. I now shoot tighter groups shooting my Manurhins in DA than what I do shooting other in single action, including my Freedom Arms revolvers. And I'm sure you're aware that Freedom Arms are very accurate revolvers.

I used to be a BIG Freedom Arms guy. Emphasis on "used to be". Now they collect dust in my safe.

For the record, I'm not particularly fond of France or French people! :D I'd have been very happy had Manurhin been manufactured by an American company.

[Inkwell 41]

Does anyone here have any information about the difference, if any, between the Chapuis versus Manurhin manufactured MR-73s? I don’t think that there has been anything conclusive, but I have heard complaints about the Chapuis made ones being less durable than their predecessors.

I’m curious about this as well. I’ve heard all the legend a lore about the MR73 as originally offered by Manurhin and some negative reviews of the Chapuis made units.

[Pol]

I’m curious about this as well. I’ve heard all the legend a lore about the MR73 as originally offered by Manurhin and some negative reviews of the Chapuis made units.

Can you perhaps provide the URLs to these negative reviews? I personally haven’t heard or seen any negative reviews. Thanks.

[Inkwell 41]

Can you perhaps provide the URLs to these negative reviews? I personally haven’t heard or seen any negative reviews. Thanks.

Pol Sure, this is what I was referring to. https://youtu.be/o0YP2iMvdCw

I’m not trolling you on this, I am truly curious about the MR73. It seems like it would provide a lifetime of service to anyone interested in owning one. That video took me back a little bit.

[Pol]

Pol Sure, this is what I was referring to. https://youtu.be/o0YP2iMvdCw

I’m not trolling you on this, I am truly curious about the MR73. It seems like it would provide a lifetime of service to anyone interested in owning one. That video took me back a little bit.

I didn't say you were trolling. I hadn't seen this video before and I am also taken aback by the video.

I first suspected the cylinder stop spring gave out putting the revolver out of time, but around 2:11 in the clip you can see the stop standing proud. So clearly it wasn't that. The other culprit would be the hand spring. Given the hand itself was broken I couldn't see either way. However, when a hand spring fails, normally what happens is the cylinder stops turning altogether. (been there) His cylinder did turn.

Both the dealer and the independent gunsmith made mention that the gun could handle the load. They had the opportunity to take a good look at the gun, so I'm inclined to go with them and suspect the ammo. He claims his ammo couldn't have been overloaded because somebody other than he reloaded them, and that really doesn't make sense. Nobody is immune to making mistakes. I think the fault was with Bubba behind the reloading press. It's not difficult to put a double charge in a .357 case and not notice.

That guy is really lucky to still have two hands and ten fingers.

[Inkwell 41]

I didn't say you were trolling. I hadn't seen this video before and I am also taken aback by the video.

I first suspected the cylinder stop spring gave out putting the revolver out of time, but around 2:11 in the clip you can see the stop standing proud. So clearly it wasn't that. The other culprit would be the hand spring. Given the hand itself was broken I couldn't see either way. However, when a hand spring fails, what normally happens is the cylinder stops turning. (been there) His cylinder did turn.

Both the dealer and the independent gunsmith made mention that the gun could handle the load, and they had a good look at the gun, so I'm inclined to suspect the ammo. He claims his ammo couldn't have been overloaded because somebody other than he reloaded them, and that really doesn't make sense. Nobody is immune to making mistakes. I think the fault was with Bubba behind the reloading press. It's not difficult to put a double charge in a .357 case and not notice.

That guy is really lucky to still have two hands and ten fingers.

No, you didn’t say that I was trolling. Considering the events of the day, I guess that I took your reply the wrong way. Your enthusiasm for the MR73 perhaps gave me that impression. In any event, I’m sorry to have implied that. My apologies.

Regarding the MR73.. I agree with you about the issue likely being ammo related.

How long have you owned yours? I’ve only seen pictures of the MR73, never one in person. How does it compare to a K and L frame in size? What speed loaders work with it?

Thanks in advance.

[Michpatriot]

Ill bite on this dream gun thread. I'd really like to someday be carrying a Sky Marshall. The redesigned Night hawk version checks all the boxes, they got rid of the picatinny rails and it even has a belt clip. No moon clip 9mm carry revolver...Yes I guess I'd better make it two. One is none you see?

[Pol]

No, you didn’t say that I was trolling. Considering the events of the day, I guess that I took your reply the wrong way. Your enthusiasm for the MR73 perhaps gave me that impression. In any event, I’m sorry to have implied that. My apologies.

Regarding the MR73.. I agree with you about the issue likely being ammo related.

How long have you owned yours? I’ve only seen pictures of the MR73, never one in person. How does it compare to a K and L frame in size? What speed loaders work with it?

Thanks in advance.

Np. I'm happy to have seen the video.

I have owned my Manurhins around 2 years, give and take. They use the same speedloaders as a K frame S&W. The frame is a little larger than a K, but closer to the K frame than the L. They look tiny compared to an L frame and a Python. I have not done any measurements, but I think the cylinder may be slightly larger than a K frame cylinder. You can use a K frame holster although best get one that will allow for a little stretch. L frame holsters are too big. The sights are good quality and sturdy, but all black.

If I had a gripe it would be the grips. I don't like them, but I also don't dislike them enough to bother changing them.

[MGW]

For what it’s worth, Wichita Gun Club (https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/korth-nighthawk-mongoose-3-357-magnum.121047/)has a 3” Korth Mongoose. They’re a Nighthawk dealer so it makes sense that they are selling Korth too. The link will take you to their post on 1911 Addicts.

[Half Moon]

Np. I'm happy to have seen the video.

I have owned my Manurhins around 2 years, give and take. They use the same speedloaders as a K frame S&W. The frame is a little larger than a K, but closer to the K frame than the L. They look tiny compared to an L frame and a Python. I have not done any measurements, but I think the cylinder may be slightly larger than a K frame cylinder. You can use a K frame holster although best get one that will allow for a little stretch. L frame holsters are too big. The sights are good quality and sturdy, but all black.

If I had a gripe it would be the grips. I don't like them, but I also don't dislike them enough to bother changing them.

If I remember right the cylinder width is almost dead center between a K and an L. I've seen the hard numbers in a review that showed the dimensions for a K, L, and MR73 side by side.

How are speed loader clearances? I've seen hints that they are tighter than a Smith K and may make some loaders more difficult to use.

[Pol]

If I remember right the cylinder width is almost dead center between a K and an L. I've seen the hard numbers in a review that showed the dimensions for a K, L, and MR73 side by side.

How are speed loader clearances? I've seen hints that they are tighter than a Smith K and may make some loaders more difficult to use.

The speedloaders I used are Safariland Comp II and the model number is "J-K2C". They work very well on the Manurhin and I didn't notice any binding. The bullets seated easily and the push release worked perfectly. On the speedloader packaging it says that these are for S&W K Frames, hence my assertion that the chamber offset sizes are the same. If they are different, it's very slight - small enough for the Comp IIs to work.

As I mentioned before, I did not take any measurements.

[jtcarm]

Ill bite on this dream gun thread. I'd really like to someday be carrying a Sky Marshall. The redesigned Night hawk version checks all the boxes, they got rid of the picatinny rails and it even has a belt clip. No moon clip 9mm carry revolver...Yes I guess I'd better make it two. One is none you see?

I did not intend this as a dream gun thread.

I’m looking for honest feedback on taking what I consider a next step in finding the best possible all-around DA revolver for me.

I won’t go though all the parameters except that a 4”, medium frame, adjustable-sighted .357 magnum checks a lot of my boxes. By “medium frame”, I mean along the lines of an L-frame or GP100.

[Pol]

I’m looking for honest feedback on taking what I consider a next step in finding the best possible all-around DA revolver for me.


Any conversation about the "best revolver" should include Janz as well. Sit down before you look at the prices though. https://janzrevolver.com/in-us-stock.

[JCN]

Ill bite on this dream gun thread. I'd really like to someday be carrying a Sky Marshall. The redesigned Night hawk version checks all the boxes, they got rid of the picatinny rails and it even has a belt clip. No moon clip 9mm carry revolver...Yes I guess I'd better make it two. One is none you see?

65845

They’re pretty impressively made and sooooo smooth.
It’s fun for the black sheep of the Korth family.

9mm does pretty decently out of short barrel revolvers.

[Inkwell 41]

Any conversation about the "best revolver" should include Janz as well. Sit down before you look at the prices though. https://janzrevolver.com/in-us-stock.

Five figures?!?!?!?!?! Ouch.

Pictures of current production MR73’s all seem to have partridge type front sights. Yours, I’m assuming the one in your picture is yours, looks like a ramp front. Was that a special order? What barrel lengths do you own? I’m partial to the 5 1/4” model.

[Half Moon]

Five figures?!?!?!?!?! Ouch.

Pictures of current production MR73’s all seem to have partridge type front sights. Yours, I’m assuming the one in your picture is yours, looks like a ramp front. Was that a special order? What barrel lengths do you own? I’m partial to the 5 1/4” model.

My understanding is the Gendarmerie models get the ramp and more rounded rear sight while the Sport models get the Patridge and a more squared off rear. Kind of like the difference between a Combat Masterpiece with the Baughman ramp and the Target Masterpiece with the Patridge. I believe both style MR73's are still available. Different sights for different intended primary use.

[Pol]

Five figures?!?!?!?!?! Ouch.

Pictures of current production MR73’s all seem to have partridge type front sights. Yours, I’m assuming the one in your picture is yours, looks like a ramp front. Was that a special order? What barrel lengths do you own? I’m partial to the 5 1/4” model.

4", 5 1/4" and 6". My 6" is a slab barrel. I bought the 5 1/4" new. I also preferred the 5 1/4" length. I wanted a partridge front sight but they only had ramped sights available.

The slab barrel I was told was a custom order and came like that from the factory, but I suspect it was done by the owner. I got it for next to nothing so no complaints - it's as accurate as the new model.

The 4" is a police surplus/beater which I have not quite decided what to do with. Lockup and functioning is still 100% even though I can see from the peening on the cylinder slots that is a very high mileage gun. Many tens of thousands of rounds I think. It has the best DA trigger of the bunch.

[Dave T]

I'm sorry gentleman but I just can't see $3K+ for a DA revolver that's going to be a shooter. For around $1K I can buy a pre-lock S&W and there are still a few excellent revolver smiths who can make it as slick as I want it to be if I'm willing to pay for it. I'll still be under the Krth/Manurhin's $3K.

Dave

[jh9]

I'm sorry gentleman but I just can't see $3K+ for a DA revolver that's going to be a shooter. For around $1K I can buy a pre-lock S&W and there are still a few excellent revolver smiths who can make it as slick as I want it to be if I'm willing to pay for it. I'll still be under the Krth/Manurhin's $3K.

Dave

Yeah, to bring it full circle a Registered Magnum isn't going to help you turn in better stage times or FAST drills than a current production 627 that's been tuned.

I appreciate the finer things in life as much as the next guy. But for a tool, being able to fix problems that come from high mileage is important. Having a deadlined multi-thousand dollar pistol that can't be put back in service until European elves bring me a bespoke screw or spring inside the Ark of the Covenant is problematic. Having to take said spring or screw with the gun to some monk living on the highest mountain in Idaho because he's the only person in North America qualified to work on the thing is similarly problematic.

Korth has a relationship with Nighthawk. If they're providing gunsmithing and service then that's a huge win for picking a modern Korth over a modern Manurhin, even if the latter looks better. (But I don't know the degree to which Nighthawk is serving as a gunsmith vs just an importer so... who knows.)

[OlongJohnson]

Paging zeleny.

This seems like your kind of thread.

[Inkwell 41]

I'm sorry gentleman but I just can't see $3K+ for a DA revolver that's going to be a shooter. For around $1K I can buy a pre-lock S&W and there are still a few excellent revolver smiths who can make it as slick as I want it to be if I'm willing to pay for it. I'll still be under the Krth/Manurhin's $3K.

Dave

Used, European police turn in MR73’s show up for sale for triple digits from time to time. This guy sent one to Dave Laubert for some tweaking....
https://youtu.be/T4CLb6IY-MQ

[Super77]

65845

They’re pretty impressively made and sooooo smooth.
It’s fun for the black sheep of the Korth family.

9mm does pretty decently out of short barrel revolvers.

I tried in vain to get one of those 9mm Korths. How did you manage to score one?

[zeleny]

Paging zeleny.

This seems like your kind of thread.To hear is to obey.

The Manurhin MR73 action is a development of the S&W Hand Ejector relentlessly rationalized in the true Cartesian tradition. Like the SIG P210, the Manurhin MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. Throughout their history, Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to machine and sinter softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. That was not an option for Manurhin in making deliveries to GIGN and SIG, to KTA. Hence the unexcelled durability and precision of their military and constabulary service handguns, combined with a more or less utilitarian finish in most of their variants.

The short action of the MR73 reduces lock time for improved accuracy in single and double action. Owing to its travel and tensioning on rollers, the rebound slide is much more supple on the French revolver, ensuring a linear double action trigger pull. The MR73 allows for much easier and more flexible mainspring and rebound spring tuning, easily switchable between the minimal tension ensuring reliable rebounding of the trigger in cycling the action, and a highly tensioned setting suitable for a “live trigger” double action rapid fire technique. The cylinder stop is much wider and stronger on the MR73, limiting the peening of the cylinder notches in rapid double action cycling. Lastly, the yoke pivot configuration eliminates the likelihood of opening up its support in the frame by swinging the cylinder open and closed.

Most importantly, the dimensions of the MR73 frame represent an ideal midpoint compromise between the .38 caliber sizing insufficient to contain prolonged firing of full-bore Magnum loads, and the .41 caliber sizing that unnecessarily weighs down the revolver frame and cylinder. The resulting sixgun remains unexcelled as a sidearm for serious social work.

Made between 1964 and 2008, Ratzeburg Korth revolver actions were built like S&W turned inside out. Their frames and cylinders are sized similarly to Manurhin. The cylinder rotates righteously clockwise, Colt-like. The ejector rod locks on by sliding its cylindrical head into a cylindrical penal, rather than by being latched on its concave head. The telescoping mainspring assembly operates via a piston sliding inside another cylinder, Schmeisser SMG-like. The crane, its English nomenclature and function another nod to Colt, likewise limits the forward cylinder travel by its collar supporting the neck of the cylinder. Korth’s barrel has been tensioned against its shroud since long before S&W took that cue from Dan Wesson. One place where the design quite literally falls short is its less than full ejector stroke; the ensuing tendency to retain the empty shells at the mouth is somewhat mitigated by the exceptionally smooth, roller burnished inner surfaces of the cylinder chambers. The Korth is easy enough to work, but the need never seems to arise. As with the MR73, the only part subject to wear on it is the forcing cone that erodes from firing Magnum ammunition. In principle, the shrouded barrel of the Korth should be relatively inexpensive and easy to replace. In practice, spare parts are unobtainable stateside, and hard to get in Germany. The MR73 seems to resist this erosion a little better. The only part liable to break on it is the floating firing pin.

Starting with the 41xxx revolver series and autopistol prototypes first shown in 2012 and 2013, Korth Lollar continued making revolvers of the original Ratzeburg design. They changed minor features by mounting the rear sight with a transverse pin in the top strap of the frame rather than longitudinal wedging into a cutout in the top rear of the barrel shroud, and adding an external adjustment to the mainspring preload. (A tendency for weak ignition remains the Achilles heel of all Korth revolver designs.) Their 2014 National Standard design, as currently imported by Nighthawk, has moved closer to S&W. The cylinder now rotates “the wrong way”, counter-clockwise to bear outward against its latches, rather than clockwise, into the frame window. Its latch has been moved from the back to the left side, S&W-style. In a practical improvement, its yoke pivot has been moved outboards to allow more clearance for loading, and its bolt notches have been shifted away from the chambers, thickening and presumably strengthening their walls. The new revolvers are made from different materials, CNC machined cold-rolled billet rather than hand-ground hammer forgings. Lastly, they differ in construction, having been designed to minimize hand-fitting and optimize drop-in assembly. The ejector rod still falls short of a full stroke. The grip frame has been standardized to the dimension of the S&W K- and L-frames, though the piston mainspring gets in the way of the grip screw on most S&W grip designs.

To sum up, if you want the best revolver ever made for social work, get an MR73. If you want the finest revolver for sport shooting, get a Korth.

More details can be found on my gun blog (https://larvatus.livejournal.com/tag/korth).

[Inkwell 41]

To hear is to obey.

The Manurhin MR73 action is a development of the S&W Hand Ejector relentlessly rationalized in the true Cartesian tradition. Like the SIG P210, the Manurhin MR73 was designed and built for an administrative market that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms. Throughout their history, Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to machine and sinter softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. That was not an option for Manurhin in making deliveries to GIGN and SIG, to KTA. Hence the unexcelled durability and precision of their military and constabulary service handguns, combined with a more or less utilitarian finish in most of their variants.

The short action of the MR73 reduces lock time for improved accuracy in single and double action. Owing to its travel and tensioning on rollers, the rebound slide is much more supple on the French revolver, ensuring a linear double action trigger pull. The MR73 allows for much easier and more flexible mainspring and rebound spring tuning, easily switchable between the minimal tension ensuring reliable rebounding of the trigger in cycling the action, and a highly tensioned setting suitable for a “live trigger” double action rapid fire technique. The cylinder stop is much wider and stronger on the MR73, limiting the peening of the cylinder notches in rapid double action cycling. Lastly, the yoke pivot configuration eliminates the likelihood of opening up its support in the frame by swinging the cylinder open and closed.

Most importantly, the dimensions of the MR73 frame represent an ideal midpoint compromise between the .38 caliber sizing insufficient to contain prolonged firing of full-bore Magnum loads, and the .41 caliber sizing that unnecessarily weighs down the revolver frame and cylinder. The resulting sixgun remains unexcelled as a sidearm for serious social work.

Made between 1964 and 2008, Ratzeburg Korth revolver actions were built like S&W turned inside out. Their frames and cylinders are sized similarly to Manurhin. The cylinder rotates righteously clockwise, Colt-like. The ejector rod locks on by sliding its cylindrical head into a cylindrical penal, rather than by being latched on its concave head. The telescoping mainspring assembly operates via a piston sliding inside another cylinder, Schmeisser SMG-like. The crane, its English nomenclature and function another nod to Colt, likewise limits the forward cylinder travel by its collar supporting the neck of the cylinder. Korth’s barrel has been tensioned against its shroud since long before S&W took that cue from Dan Wesson. One place where the design quite literally falls short is its less than full ejector stroke; the ensuing tendency to retain the empty shells at the mouth is somewhat mitigated by the exceptionally smooth, roller burnished inner surfaces of the cylinder chambers. The Korth is easy enough to work, but the need never seems to arise. As with the MR73, the only part subject to wear on it is the forcing cone that erodes from firing Magnum ammunition. In principle, the shrouded barrel of the Korth should be relatively inexpensive and easy to replace. In practice, spare parts are unobtainable stateside, and hard to get in Germany. The MR73 seems to resist this erosion a little better. The only part liable to break on it is the floating firing pin.

Starting with the 41xxx revolver series and autopistol prototypes first shown in 2012 and 2013, Korth Lollar continued making revolvers of the original Ratzeburg design. They changed minor features by mounting the rear sight with a transverse pin in the top strap of the frame rather than longitudinal wedging into a cutout in the top rear of the barrel shroud, and adding an external adjustment to the mainspring preload. (A tendency for weak ignition remains the Achilles heel of all Korth revolver designs.) Their 2014 National Standard design, as currently imported by Nighthawk, has moved closer to S&W. The cylinder now rotates “the wrong way”, counter-clockwise to bear outward against its latches, rather than clockwise, into the frame window. Its latch has been moved from the back to the left side, S&W-style. In a practical improvement, its yoke pivot has been moved outboards to allow more clearance for loading, and its bolt notches have been shifted away from the chambers, thickening and presumably strengthening their walls. The new revolvers are made from different materials, CNC machined cold-rolled billet rather than hand-ground hammer forgings. Lastly, they differ in construction, having been designed to minimize hand-fitting and optimize drop-in assembly. The ejector rod still falls short of a full stroke. The grip frame has been standardized to the dimension of the S&W K- and L-frames, though the piston mainspring gets in the way of the grip screw on most S&W grip designs.

To sum up, if you want the best revolver ever made for social work, get an MR73. If you want the finest revolver for sport shooting, get a Korth.

More details can be found on my gun blog (https://larvatus.livejournal.com/tag/korth).

So, you don’t really know much about the MR73..... kidding!

Your last blog post on the MR73 is dated back to 2017. What’s your opinion of current production MR73’s? As good as the original manufacture units?

Thanks for the insight.

Regards

[JCN]

I tried in vain to get one of those 9mm Korths. How did you manage to score one?

About two years ago, there were a bunch available on Gunbroker for pretty decent prices. Either NIB or very lightly used.

I bought one and thought about buying a second one, but I like 7 and 8 shot carry revolvers if they’re going to be that long in the grip. Super fun gun though.

[Pol]

I'm sorry gentleman but I just can't see $3K+ for a DA revolver that's going to be a shooter. For around $1K I can buy a pre-lock S&W and there are still a few excellent revolver smiths who can make it as slick as I want it to be if I'm willing to pay for it. I'll still be under the Krth/Manurhin's $3K.

Dave

Have a look at an S&W rebound slide vs. that of a MR73. The S&W relies on a metal on metal contact, the Manurhin moves on rollers. No matter what you pay a gunsmith, no amount of stoning and polishing available on this planet will make the S&W rebound slide as slick as that of a Manurhin. Now consider that just about every component that effects strength, accuracy, reliability and trigger feel in the Manurhin is an improved version of what you find in an S&W.

If an S&W is all you want, that's great. For the vast majority of people a Manurhin is not worth it. Heck, for the vast majority of people a pre lock S&W is not worth it. Each to his own. But if you are alluding an S&W can be made to match an MR73, you are mistaken. It's simply not possible.

[Lex Luthier]

To hear is to obey.

The Manurhin MR73 action is a development of the S&W Hand Ejector relentlessly rationalized in the true Cartesian tradition. <snip>

To sum up, if you want the best revolver ever made for social work, get an MR73. If you want the finest revolver for sport shooting, get a Korth.

More details can be found on my gun blog (https://larvatus.livejournal.com/tag/korth).

That is about the most concise summing up I've yet read. Thank you, and please accept the golf clap I am offering...

[Dave T]

But if you are alluding an S&W can be made to match an MR73, you are mistaken.

Pol,

I specifically said, "...there are still a few excellent revolver smiths who can make it as slick as I want it to be..." I did not say anything about matching the object of your affections.

Dave

[Pol]

... the object of your affections.



FLMAO!

Bless your heart Dave.

[zeleny]

Pol,

I specifically said, "...there are still a few excellent revolver smiths who can make it as slick as I want it to be..." I did not say anything about matching the object of your affections.

DaveS&W doesn’t make a revolver sized like the MR73. In the 4" configuration, the L-frame M686 weighs 42 oz, whereas the MR73 weighs but 33.5 oz. Even the anemic K-frame M19 is 2.5 oz heavier. The MR73 is on record outlasting both.

Good luck making the S&W rebound slide as slick as its roller-supported MR73 counterpart. You might as well try pitting a drag sled against a wheeled kart.

[zeleny]

Your last blog post on the MR73 is dated back to 2017. What’s your opinion of current production MR73’s? As good as the original manufacture units?Not enough information.

[Rex G]

I tried in vain to get one of those 9mm Korths. How did you manage to score one?

Collectors Firearms, In Houston, Texas, had several in stock, for a while. That was pre-2020, of course. I seriously considered putting one of them on lay-awake.

Collectors Firearms is a Nighthawk/Korth dealer. They have a dot com, but not all items get listed quickly on their e-commerce site. I saw some of the larger, higher-dollar Korths there, in December, at a time when I do not think they were listed on the web site.

Well, I just looked. The Korths that I saw, in December, are listed now.

https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/search?controller=search&s=Korth&category_dropdown_id=All+Products

I am not an employee of, or rep/influencer/pitch-man, for this dealer, or any business. At the moment, I cannot financially justify starting a 90-day lay-awake, on either of these, much less buy one outright.

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

This thread needs more bac1023

[Brian T]

Have a look at an S&W rebound slide vs. that of a MR73. The S&W relies on a metal on metal contact, the Manurhin moves on rollers. No matter what you pay a gunsmith, no amount of stoning and polishing available on this planet will make the S&W rebound slide as slick as that of a Manurhin. Now consider that just about every component that effects strength, accuracy, reliability and trigger feel in the Manurhin is an improved version of what you find in an S&W.

I could swear I have seen someone in the past offering a roller rebound slide part for S&W K/L/N in the past. That or it was a part and a frame modification.

[Lex Luthier]

I could swear I have seen someone in the past offering a roller rebound slide part for S&W K/L/N in the past. That or it was a part and a frame modification.

It would be really cool to see one modded up.

[Tod-13]

Collectors Firearms, In Houston, Texas, had several in stock, for a while. That was pre-2020, of course. I seriously considered putting one of them on lay-awake.


We like Collector's. When my wife is with me and asks for a gun, they show it to her and talk to her -- not me.

We got both our Korth revolvers there.

[Dave T]

FLMAO!

Bless your heart Dave.

Pol,

I should have put a smiley face at the end of that. I really wasn't trying to be a smart ass, just a silly one.

Dave

[jtcarm]

To sum up, if you want the best revolver ever made for social work, get an MR73. If you want the finest revolver for sport shooting, get a Korth.

More details can be found on my gun blog (https://larvatus.livejournal.com/tag/korth).

Very informative, thank you.

Now, what makes the MR73 better suited to SD and the Korth to sport?

[Scal]

I could swear I have seen someone in the past offering a roller rebound slide part for S&W K/L/N in the past. That or it was a part and a frame modification.

Cylinder and Slide made a Smith trigger and hammer kit with a roller bearing on the tail of the trigger where it engages the sear. That’s more similar to the Korth revolver than the Manurhin roller bearing rebound slide, though.

I don’t know about anyone making a roller bearing rebound slide for Smiths, but I am sure as hell not as knowledgeable as some other folks on this board to say that it definitely was never a thing.

[Pol]

I could swear I have seen someone in the past offering a roller rebound slide part for S&W K/L/N in the past. That or it was a part and a frame modification.

I think you are remembering something else. It would take a fairly competent gunsmith would be able to covert an S&W to a roller return slide design. The differences in design between an S&W and an MR73 to have the roller return slide are not trivial. There's more to it than a drop part or two and a few frame modifications.

[Jim Watson]

Cylinder and Slide made a Smith trigger and hammer kit with a roller bearing on the tail of the trigger where it engages the sear. That’s more similar to the Korth revolver than the Manurhin roller bearing rebound slide, though.

I don’t know about anyone making a roller bearing rebound slide for Smiths, but I am sure as hell not as knowledgeable as some other folks on this board to say that it definitely was never a thing.

Agree, I have seen roller bearing hammers on Smith and Colt; never heard of a roller rebound slide. Can't see where it would help much vs polished contact surfaces.

[zeleny]

Very informative, thank you.
Now, what makes the MR73 better suited to SD and the Korth to sport?Korth revolvers (https://larvatus.livejournal.com/401890.html) were designed and built for bullseye competition. Initially, Willi Korth made the centerfire variants with a 5-shot capacity, because the sixth round was superfluous in target disciplines. Form followed function. The key feature of the Korth trigger action design, patented in Germany as DE 1904675 A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/005723856/publication/DE1904675A1?q=pn%3DDE1904675A1), allowed for a precise and tunable stacking transition in double action, achieved through the use of variously sized rollers on the trigger impinging upon the double action sear on the hammer. This feature allowed for precise staging of the trigger pull into a smooth hammer cocking stroke followed by a hard transition to a crisp hammer release. The end result offered the well heeled German revolver shooter a sidearm that mimicked the two-stage trigger pull ergonomics of a precision service semiautomatic sidearm such as the SIG P210 (https://larvatus.livejournal.com/33732.html).

Gilbert Maillard designed the Manurhin MR73 on a very different brief. Although his sidearm was meant to be well suited for reactive deployment in precision snap shooting, its primary purpose was offensive. In the United States, the closest counterpart for these desiderata was the 1989 tender by the United States Special Operations Command (US SOCOM) of the Offensive Handgun Weapon System (OHWS) that resulted in the adoption of the Heckler & Koch MK23 Mod 0 pistol as the standard-issue handgun for most US special forces groups.

Here is the relevant part of my Manurhin MR73 article (https://larvatus.livejournal.com/519794.html):

In the early Seventies, the French constabulary faced an extraordinary criminal threat. The country remained awash in weapons left over from its occupation in WWII. Le milieu, the thoroughly updated twentieth century successor of the swell criminal mob (la haute pègre) originally mythologized by Balzac in La Comedie humaine, did not hesitate to employ military grade firearms in bank robberies. The gang of the Lyonnais employed an enviable array of handguns, submachine guns, and assault rifles to great effect in over 35 daring robberies that netted up to twelve million francs apiece between 1967 and 1977. As a result, French police agencies gradually accepted the idea of arming their personnel, traditionally equipped with blowback autopistols chambered in .32 ACP, with locked breech autopistols and heavy duty revolvers chambered in 9mm Para and .357 Magnum. American-style handgun shooting reached Europe in the 1962, with Raymond Sasia, a judo instructor employed as a bodyguard by Charles de Gaulle, who was sent to study the shooting techniques of the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia. He returned to France with an FBI certification and founded CNT, the National Center for Shooting Instruction of the National Police (le Centre National de Perfectionnement du Tir de la Police Nationale), a shooting school in Paris that taught range officers, French nationals at first, then foreigners. The latter, upon returning home, taught new range officers. Thus the method “Sasia” promulgated FBI’s revolver shooting techniques throughout the Western world. Meanwhile, CNT sought to develop and adopt a standard issue police sidearm. Sasia’s experience of training with the FBI dictated chambering the revolver in .357 Magnum. At first, Smith and Wesson developed at his behest and on his behalf, a special production run of its .357 Magnum Model 19 revolver, designated M19-3RS, equipped with a 3" barrel and fitted with fixed sights.

In 1971, the Service d’études techniques de la Police Nationale of the Interior Ministry, headed by master shooter Valéry Carmona, charged Manurhin with the creation of a new French .357 Magnum dual purpose (police-sporting) revolver. The stage was set on issuing a French product, expected to number 80,000 revolvers, in constabulary service. The Manurhin MR73 revolvers ensued from this program. Its titular year saw the production of Police/Defense fixed sight variants with 2½", 3", and 4" inch barrels, in 9mm Para and .357 Magnum. The following year Manurhin rolled out its Match and Sport versions, with 4", 5¼", 6", and 8" barrels, all in the .357 Magnum caliber. In 1977, it added 3", 5¼", and 8" GIGN (Gendarmerie) versions in .357 Magnum. In 1980 and 1981 came the turn of the MR32 and MR38 Match revolvers in .32 S&W Long and .38 S&W Special, along with the 9" MR73 Long Range. The centerfire MR range was completed in 1983 with the 10¾" MR73 Silhouette in .357 Magnum and the limited production, stainless steel MR73 10-year commemorative. The MR22 in .22LR and the small-frame 5-shot Remora in .38 S&W Special followed in 1986.The MR range culminated in 1987 with the Convertible model, fitted with interchangeable, tensioned barrels fed by hand-detachable cylinders in .38 Special, .32 S&W Long, and .22LR, with the aid of a frame-mounted firing pin selectable for centerfire or rimfire ignition.
And here is the key claim of Maillard’s US3965603A patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US3965603?oq=3965603):

At the time of pulling of the double-action, the force exerted by the marksman upon the trigger must on one hand overcome the action on the trigger by the hammer spring, and on the other hand, the force exerted upon the trigger by its spring. This last force increases as a function of the degree of displacement of the trigger; the range of travel of the trigger has to be sufficient to assure the displacement of the hammer towards its cocked position. The result of this is that the force required by the marksman to be exerted upon the trigger increases as the hammer approaches its fully cocked position in which it becomes free to perform its firing stroke: this makes it difficult for the marksman to achieve accuracy in shooting the revolver.

The present invention has among its objects the overcoming of such disadvantage. In accordance with the invention there is provided a double-action revolver in which the force exerted by the second spring upon the trigger remains substantially constant and independent of the distance of travel of the trigger, so that the revolver has a great regularity of “weight” or pull of its double-action, and thus greatly improves the sensitivity of the trigger action.Long story short, Maillard’s design is the ultimate refinement developed to date of a trigger action that suits the requirements of smooth, fast, and precise double action shooting as developed and taught by Ed McGivern and Bill Jordan.

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

Superb posts by zeleny in this thread. Thank you.

[gato naranja]

What does the hive, in its collective and infinite wisdom, think?

At 65+, my ignorance still outpaces my wisdom but I have had a couple of good bon mots pounded into me that I ignore at my peril, and one of them that really got hammered home was to never buy anything I couldn't afford to replace if necessary. (For me, the lesson was administered in the form of blackpowder cartridge rifles and the associated paraphernalia thereof.) That being said, there is much to recommend in thinning out the herd and possibly upgrading before health care/assisted living sharks, fair-weather friends and relatives, and big brother assume control of the collection.

I have never even seen a Manurhin revolver in the flesh, though I have seen a couple of Korths over the years. I am always impressed by good craftsmanship and materials, and I appreciate incremental improvements in design. This thread has ended up being pretty interesting, and while I would now like to sample a Manurhin revolver, I'm really a day late and a dollar short.

[Pol]

What does the hive, in its collective and infinite wisdom, think?

Mr Zeleny made some excellent comments. Well worth the read and IMHO totally on point.

I'll add that the notion that the MR73's made by Chapuis are inferior to the Mulhouse ones is complete and utter balony. I own both, and from both the inside and outside and accuracy, I sure cannot tell the difference. With the exception of the somewhat "interesting" australian on youtube, ALL the naysayers and "negative nellies" are individuals who have never in their entire lives even seen either a Manurhin or a Korth, never mind ever shooting either of them. For some reason, some feel the need to share their "wisdom" in spite of not having the faintest.

As an MR73 owner, I know a tiny bit. I have high degree of confidence you would be very happy with either a Manurhin or a Korth, and you would appreciate the fine engineering that went into both guns. The few other owners I have come across, are very happy with their guns. And if worse comes to worst, if you need to sell, you will get most of you money back.

Feel free to PM me.

Good luck. Pol.

[Inkwell 41]

Pol and zeleny... The information in this thread has been very helpful and interesting. I very much appreciate you both sharing your insight on the MR73.Thank you both for sharing.

Regards,

jfpatch

[Tuvia]

Enjoyed reading this thread. I have owned a Chapuis MR73. Currently own a Ratzeburg Korth and a new one from Lollar. To me it was a matter of personal preference. I preferred either Korth to the MR73. I just received my first Janz revolver and will say it is a remarkable firearm.

[Tuvia]

I would like to see Zeleny weigh in on the Janz.

[jtcarm]

Enjoyed reading this thread. I have owned a Chapuis MR73. Currently own a Ratzeburg Korth and a new one from Lollar. To me it was a matter of personal preference. I preferred either Korth to the MR73. I just received my first Janz revolver and will say it is a remarkable firearm.

What makes you prefer the Korth over the Manurhin?

[Tuvia]

It was mostly because I think the Korth is a better made revolver. I had two MR73 Both had a problem with end shake. It may have been in spec but was more than I was willing to put up with. Someone suggested a washer kit but really a revolver in that class should be perfect from the factory.

[jtcarm]

It was mostly because I think the Korth is a better made revolver. I had two MR73 Both had a problem with end shake. It may have been in spec but was more than I was willing to put up with. Someone suggested a washer kit but really a revolver in that class should be perfect from the factory.

Hmm, and I thought durability was its long suit.

It’s great to hear from so many knowledgeable folks. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[Tuvia]

Hmm, and I thought durability was its long suit.

It’s great to hear from so many knowledgeable folks. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Don't get me wrong MR73 is a durable and very nice looking revolver. I just think the new Korth from Lollar is better made.

[Pol]

While looking for the youtube video of the Australian with the ruined MR73, I stumbled upon this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZzusyfk4zU&t=142s I have no idea who the gentleman is who posted it, but he does seem very knowledgeable. Well worth watching.

[Scal]

So, trawling around the internet, I found a mention of a Chapuis MR73 revolver with proof load paperwork at something around 3900 bar, or about 56,500 psi. That’s a touch over 60% in excess of maximum pressure for .357mag. Standard proof loads for .357 are typically more like 45,000psi. I was wondering if the Mulhouse Manurhins also have proof pressure at this amount. It might be a data point in favor of the Chapuis guns being similar enough to the Mulhouse guns.

From other random internet chatter, it seems that the Mulhouse guns had an alloy from these folks: https://www.aubertduval.com/about-aubert-duval/

I have no idea if Chapuis allegedly not using whatever special alloy that was previously used means much if the proof pressure is the same, since at the end of the day, if it demonstrates similar mechanical properties, it doesn’t particularly matter if it’s exactly the same or not . Especially since as far as I know, no one who knows specifically what metals, forging processes, or other treatments were or are in used in either make of gun is talking about testable specifics here.

If anyone reading has any insight on this, or just a proof pressure certificate for a Mulhouse gun, I am all ears.

[Wyoming Shooter]

Gentlemen -

I'm impressed by the technology you've graciously explained. Given the design and execution of these revolvers, I would expect them to dominate competitions. Is this happening? I'm truly not looking to stir up feces. I just honestly don't know how these revolvers perform in competition as such events are few and far between in these parts. Thanks. ELN

[Inkwell 41]

Gentlemen -

I'm impressed by the technology you've graciously explained. Given the design and execution of these revolvers, I would expect them to dominate competitions. Is this happening? I'm truly not looking to stir up feces. I just honestly don't know how these revolvers perform in competition as such events are few and far between in these parts. Thanks. ELN

I’d guess that initial cost and relative rarity keep them from seeing much competition, at least stateside.

[Pol]

I had two MR73 Both had a problem with end shake. It may have been in spec but was more than I was willing to put up with. Someone suggested a washer kit but really a revolver in that class should be perfect from the factory.

Strange, I own three MR73s, one a well used surplus, and none have even a hint of end shake.

How do you like the Janz?

[Tuvia]

Strange, I own three MR73s, one a well used surplus, and none have even a hint of end shake.

How do you like the Janz?

Im glad You are having success with Your MR73. They are very nice revolvers.

As far as the Janz I just got it and have only shot it once so far. I really cant think of any words to describe it other than superior to anything else.

[zeleny]

So, trawling around the internet, I found a mention of a Chapuis MR73 revolver with proof load paperwork at something around 3900 bar, or about 56,500 psi. That’s a touch over 60% in excess of maximum pressure for .357mag. Standard proof loads for .357 are typically more like 45,000psi. I was wondering if the Mulhouse Manurhins also have proof pressure at this amount. It might be a data point in favor of the Chapuis guns being similar enough to the Mulhouse guns.

From other random internet chatter, it seems that the Mulhouse guns had an alloy from these folks: https://www.aubertduval.com/about-aubert-duval/

I have no idea if Chapuis allegedly not using whatever special alloy that was previously used means much if the proof pressure is the same, since at the end of the day, if it demonstrates similar mechanical properties, it doesn’t particularly matter if it’s exactly the same or not . Especially since as far as I know, no one who knows specifically what metals, forging processes, or other treatments were or are in used in either make of gun is talking about testable specifics here.

If anyone reading has any insight on this, or just a proof pressure certificate for a Mulhouse gun, I am all ears.Chapuis uses the same Aubert & Duval steel alloys in making the MR73, as were used by Manurhin. As seen below, French proof certificates make no mention of proof pressures.

66805

[Florey55]

So, you don’t really know much about the MR73..... kidding!

"Your last blog post on the MR73 is dated back to 2017. What’s your opinion of current production MR73’s? As good as the original manufacture units?"

Thanks for the insight.

Regards

I can answer your question on current production MR73s. I have seen, handled and shot quite a few. ( I own 2 MR73s) and have owned every model from original production ones.

They are of exceptional quality. The switch to 5 axis CNC machines has certainly paid dividends to Chapuis Armes and looks as though there has been a general uplift in quality.

On a side note, the take-over of Chapuis Armes by Beretta has resulted in cheaper prices for MR73s and MR88s ( at least in Australia it has) MR73s prices for the first shipment from Beretta Chapuis Armes ( due in 2 months) will be around $USD2700

[Sal Picante]

I miss my Mr73... It is at Defensive Creations getting some work done....

[Greg Bell]

I miss my Mr73... It is at Defensive Creations getting some work done....


Do tell? I was considering getting mine converted to dao and fixing adjustments. I would also like a tritium front bead

[Sal Picante]

Do tell? I was considering getting mine converted to dao and fixing adjustments. I would also like a tritium front bead

I'm waiting - I've got a fixed sight verison. Trigger work, get rid of the CAI import. Refinish... Add some sights. I'd like to see if he can install a Bowen rough country sight on there...

[Greg Bell]

Oh man that's a good idea.

[Stephanie B]

There's a MR-88 on GB (https://www.gunbroker.com/item/890272353), heading for the stratrosphere.

[jh9]

There's a MR-88 on GB (https://www.gunbroker.com/item/890272353), heading for the stratrosphere.

To be faaiiirrrrr...

That one looks pretty good. Doesn't seem to have much wear and the sideplate appears to be much better fit than the last few MR-88s I saw on GB a few years ago.

If Kebco is still importing them why not call or email and ask what NIB costs? Their MR-73s ("https://www.gunsinternational.com/kebco-.cfm) look like they're $3200 with no auction house shenanigans or prolonged wait times.

[Scal]

That MR-88 is also from Larry Vickers collection, so that probably has something to do with the price.

I got a surplus MR-88, and there’s nothing wrong with it, but it’s essentially a service/security six with a sideplate. I loaned it to a friend who broke the transfer bar dry firing it. A Ruger transfer bar from numrich dropped right in to the gun, and it has otherwise been well behaved. Looking at other parts from Ruger and Manurhin schematics, I think that the guns have enough similarities that the transfer bar is not the only part that is compatible.

Given that, and how easily and relatively cheaply the Rugers can be found, I don’t really see the point of paying a premium for an MR-88.

[Inkwell 41]

Are there commonly available speed loaders that work with the MR73? Something a guy could order online and now have to wait for it to clear customs or is so rare that they sell for as much as a new MR73?

[jtcarm]

Are there commonly available speed loaders that work with the MR73? Something a guy could order online and now have to wait for it to clear customs or is so rare that they sell for as much as a new MR73?

From what I’ve read, K-frame SLs work.

Nighthawk sells SLs for the Mongoose. Pretty pricey. I think K-frames fit the Korth as well.

[Half Moon]

With the MR73 being a moderately rare import, who are the go-to folks for parts and gunsmithing if needed?

[jtcarm]

I can answer your question on current production MR73s. I have seen, handled and shot quite a few. ( I own 2 MR73s) and have owned every model from original production ones.

They are of exceptional quality. The switch to 5 axis CNC machines has certainly paid dividends to Chapuis Armes and looks as though there has been a general uplift in quality.

On a side note, the take-over of Chapuis Armes by Beretta has resulted in cheaper prices for MR73s and MR88s ( at least in Australia it has) MR73s prices for the first shipment from Beretta Chapuis Armes ( due in 2 months) will be around $USD2700

Wow, that’s a full $1,000 less than the Mongoose.

So is that 2 months to hit Australia?

Any word from Beretta USA?

[Pol]

With the MR73 being a moderately rare import, who are the go-to folks for parts and gunsmithing if needed?

Parts at Hastings. Not much on a MR73 you don’t see on an S&W, so I suspect most competent gunsmiths will do. Small differences but the basic design is the same.

[Tuvia]

With the MR73 being a moderately rare import, who are the go-to folks for parts and gunsmithing if needed?

There is a Man in Oklahoma JJ Perrideau who imports Manurhin who is also a gunsmith. That said Cylinder and Slide should take care of anything.

[Florey55]

Wow, that’s a full $1,000 less than the Mongoose.

So is that 2 months to hit Australia?

Any word from Beretta USA?

What Chapuis Armes do is to make revolvers in a batch for different geographic locations i.e. Eastern Europe, Western Europe, Australia etc. So there may be many quarters, or years, before a geographic location received its allotment of ordered Manurhins. This is partly to help with the logistics of shipping, as French law stipulates only disassembled firearms can be exported. In the case of Manurhins, the cylinders are removed and shipped separately.

Some other points -

Manurhin Match MR73s in .32 S&W L, and .38 Special are very popular in Australia and there are probably more here than in any other country. Of the 20 shooters on the line at my range last week, 6 were using Manurhins.

Quality - The quality of the current MR73s is the best that they have ever been. Fit, finish, polishing and blueing are simply superb. They are jewels, I know a couple of shooters who have new ones, and they just can't bear to use them.

Endshake - I haven't noticed ant anything alarming on my 2 MR73s, but I do recall advice given to me by the dealer/gunsmith who sold me my first MR73 about 35 years ago. He said " Only use European cases such as Lapua in them. European cases have thicker rims and that's what they have been designed to use and tolerances adjusted to suit. Using a case with a thicker rim then contributes to an almost solid lock-up." With no endshake?

I would have liked to attach pictures of the current Manurhin brochure and a current production MR73 but the system wont let me ado this !

[Scal]

What Chapuis Armes do is to make revolvers in a batch for different geographic locations i.e. Eastern Europe, Western Europe, Australia etc. So there may be many quarters, or years, before a geographic location received its allotment of ordered Manurhins. This is partly to help with the logistics of shipping, as French law stipulates only disassembled firearms can be exported. In the case of Manurhins, the cylinders are removed and shipped separately.

Some other points -

Manurhin Match MR73s in .32 S&W L, and .38 Special are very popular in Australia and there are probably more here than in any other country. Of the 20 shooters on the line at my range last week, 6 were using Manurhins.

Quality - The quality of the current MR73s is the best that they have ever been. Fit, finish, polishing and blueing are simply superb. They are jewels, I know a couple of shooters who have new ones, and they just can't bear to use them.

Endshake - I haven't noticed ant anything alarming on my 2 MR73s, but I do recall advice given to me by the dealer/gunsmith who sold me my first MR73 about 35 years ago. He said " Only use European cases such as Lapua in them. European cases have thicker rims and that's what they have been designed to use and tolerances adjusted to suit. Using a case with a thicker rim then contributes to an almost solid lock-up." With no endshake?

I would have liked to attach pictures of the current Manurhin brochure and a current production MR73 but the system wont let me ado this !

This is all interesting to hear. I was kind of set on an original Mulhouse gun, but it seems like the Chapuis guns are probably a good bet as well.

And do you mean this brochure, or another one?

https://imthi.actioncom.fr/dbIMAGE/chapuisarmes/image/I_37BCR_1543401870594.PDF

[Florey55]

This is all interesting to hear. I was kind of set on an original Mulhouse gun, but it seems like the Chapuis guns are probably a good bet as well.

And do you mean this brochure, or another one?

https://imthi.actioncom.fr/dbIMAGE/chapuisarmes/image/I_37BCR_1543401870594.PDF

Yep, that's the one

[Tuvia]

Endshake - I haven't noticed ant anything alarming on my 2 MR73s,

I'm curious. Do You have a very sharp edge on the OD of your forcing cone.

[Inkwell 41]

From what I’ve read, K-frame SLs work.

Nighthawk sells SLs for the Mongoose. Pretty pricey. I think K-frames fit the Korth as well.

Hmmmm... I understood that the Korth’s were L frame size. Some speed loaders are more forgiving than others in that they hold the rounds rather loosely. My sons N frame HKS loaders rattle around like maracas.

jtcarm, not doubting you, I’ve heard several conflicting views and was hoping for a definitive answer.

Thanks.

[WobblyPossum]

I just want to say that I appreciate all the information posted in this thread. A 3” MR73 has been a grail of mine for a little while and I enjoyed reading everything that has been posted.

[Pol]

Are there commonly available speed loaders that work with the MR73? Something a guy could order online and now have to wait for it to clear customs or is so rare that they sell for as much as a new MR73?

Safariland Comp II Group 4 - Part # J-K2C SKU 1103418

[Inkwell 41]

Safariland Comp II Group 4 - Part # J-K2C SKU 1103418

KFrame it is, then.

Thanks all.

[Florey55]

Still after a MR73?

What about a MR73 Sniper Revolver ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1zEUGck8NE

Manurhin have commenced a limited production of these again...

[Scal]

So, trawling around the internet, I found a mention of a Chapuis MR73 revolver with proof load paperwork at something around 3900 bar, or about 56,500 psi. That’s a touch over 60% in excess of maximum pressure for .357mag. Standard proof loads for .357 are typically more like 45,000psi. I was wondering if the Mulhouse Manurhins also have proof pressure at this amount. It might be a data point in favor of the Chapuis guns being similar enough to the Mulhouse guns.

From other random internet chatter, it seems that the Mulhouse guns had an alloy from these folks: https://www.aubertduval.com/about-aubert-duval/

I have no idea if Chapuis allegedly not using whatever special alloy that was previously used means much if the proof pressure is the same, since at the end of the day, if it demonstrates similar mechanical properties, it doesn’t particularly matter if it’s exactly the same or not . Especially since as far as I know, no one who knows specifically what metals, forging processes, or other treatments were or are in used in either make of gun is talking about testable specifics here.

If anyone reading has any insight on this, or just a proof pressure certificate for a Mulhouse gun, I am all ears.

Welp, I did some more poking around and apparently 3900 bar is just standard CIP .357 proof pressure. I didn’t realize the difference between rated maximum SAAMI (35000psi) and CIP (43500psi) pressures in .357 magnum. If Chapuis uses the same kind of steel as the original Manurhin guns, which they do per Mr. Zeleny, I think that it’s likely that the new guns are just as durable as the older ones, but the proof certificates don’t do anything to substantiate that.

Since we have a pretty deep pool of experts here, can anyone speak to the large discrepancy between maximum rated pressures? This doesn’t seem to necessarily carry over to other cartridges, and even though a lot of other CIP and SAAMI maximum pressures aren’t precisely the same, .357 seems to have a noticeably large difference.

[zeleny]

Welp, I did some more poking around and apparently 3900 bar is just standard CIP .357 proof pressure. I didn’t realize the difference between rated maximum SAAMI (35000psi) and CIP (43500psi) pressures in .357 magnum. If Chapuis uses the same kind of steel as the original Manurhin guns, which they do per Mr. Zeleny, I think that it’s likely that the new guns are just as durable as the older ones, but the proof certificates don’t do anything to substantiate that.

Since we have a pretty deep pool of experts here, can anyone speak to the large discrepancy between maximum rated pressures? This doesn’t seem to necessarily carry over to other cartridges, and even though a lot of other CIP and SAAMI maximum pressures aren’t precisely the same, .357 seems to have a noticeably large difference.The original muzzle velocity of a 158 grain .357 Magnum bullet fired from a 6" barrel (https://larvatus.livejournal.com/519794.html) was advertised in 1935 as 1510 fps, motivated by the chamber pressure ranging between 40,000 and 50,000 psi. The 41st Edition of the Lyman reloading manual published in 1957, listed a maximum .357 Magnum load with a 158 grain lead SWC bullet propelled by 15.5 grains of Alliant 2400 powder to 1538 fps. After Bill Jordan collaborated with Smith & Wesson on the design and characteristics of the medium frame .357 Magnum M19 revolver, né the Combat Magnum, designed as a .38 Special revolver that could occasionally fire .357 Magnum, for police officers to carry often and shoot little, the 158 grain .357 Magnum load was downgraded to an advertised 1235 fps, amounting to nearly a 300 fps difference from the original.

Here (https://www.shootersforum.com/threads/357-magnum-saami-pressures.236651/) is a more detailed, albeit speculative, account of this transition:


According to SAAMI specs the 357 magnum operating pressure was 45000 CUP while the 9mm Luger was 33000 CUP. The magnum having approximately 50% more pressure. When we look at the piezo pressures in 2015 we find the 9mm Luger at 35000 PSI and the 357 Magnum reduced to 35000 PSI or the same as a 9mm Luger. This reduction was called for by at least three of the manufacturers of guns with side plates because the higher pressure rounds were causing problems in their lighter revolvers and rather than build stronger guns they had the pressures lowered. I haven’t been able to find copies of those communications but I did find the original data being used, unchanged, in the European market.

According to the C.I.P. rulings, the .357 Magnum cartridge case can handle up to 300.00*MPa (43,511*psi) Pmax piezo pressure. In C.I.P.-regulated countries every pistol cartridge combination has to be proofed at 130% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers. This means that .357 Magnum chambered arms in C.I.P. regulated countries are currently (2018) proof tested at 390.00*MPa (56,565*psi) PE piezo pressure.

The 9×19mm Parabellum was introduced in the year (1902) but was originally designed for smokeless powder, and for higher pressures (235.00*MPa (34,084*psi) Pmax piezo pressure).
You will notice the the 357 has approximately 50% more pressure.

At least one of the American reloading manuals are still using this data for their load information, Sierra. I have been using this data to load my 357 Magnums from nearly the very start of my reloading career 45 years ago. They are still operating with fine accuracy after the targets, competitions, practice for the competitions, training, hunting and just plinking all using the same load. According to almost all the other manuals I am shooting 1.5 grain overloads yet the cases fall out of the cylinder under their own weight and I have never had to take my gun to a smith for repair or tuning. Not bad for a gun that has had well over 30,000 rounds fired through it.

I believe most of the ammunition for the 357 is neutered to the reduced pressure and might be the reason there is so much talk about the 9mm being as powerful as the 357. What I do know is that I have been using over 19 grains of H110 with a 140 grain bullet that gives me 1599 fps from a six inch barrel. This is not the hottest load listed in the Sierra manual but it is the most accurate in my gun. The highest loads provided muzzle velocities of 1602 and 1619 fps and also dropped freely from the cylinder. Accuracy fell off with those loads. I am not a velocity reloader as I load for accuracy whether in my pistols or rifles. H110 has given me the very best accuracy at close to maximum loads and when shooting out to 100 yards that was very important. The velocity was a plus because I didn't have to adjust my sights during the match.

I have heard all the explanations of why the piezo pressures are so different from the CUP pressures but the real answer is that some gun makers didn't want to make stronger guns so SAAMI was petitioned to drop the pressures. CIP was not affected by the politics and left it where it should be.

[vtfarmer]

Welp, I did some more poking around and apparently 3900 bar is just standard CIP .357 proof pressure. I didn’t realize the difference between rated maximum SAAMI (35000psi) and CIP (43500psi) pressures in .357 magnum. If Chapuis uses the same kind of steel as the original Manurhin guns, which they do per Mr. Zeleny, I think that it’s likely that the new guns are just as durable as the older ones, but the proof certificates don’t do anything to substantiate that.

Since we have a pretty deep pool of experts here, can anyone speak to the large discrepancy between maximum rated pressures? This doesn’t seem to necessarily carry over to other cartridges, and even though a lot of other CIP and SAAMI maximum pressures aren’t precisely the same, .357 seems to have a noticeably large difference.

A rifle cartridge comparison would be 30/06. Years ago the pressure limit was always given as 50,000 CUP. Under the current system it's given as 60,000 psi. Has the pressure limit been raised?. Or is it the same amount of pressure measured two completely different ways?

[jh9]

The original muzzle velocity of a 158 grain .357 Magnum bullet fired from a 6" barrel (https://larvatus.livejournal.com/519794.html) was advertised in 1935 as 1510 fps
... The 41st Edition of the Lyman reloading manual published in 1957, listed a maximum .357 Magnum load with a 158 grain lead SWC bullet propelled by 15.5 grains of Alliant 2400 powder to 1538 fps.

That... I don't think that's right.

I don't know how they were measuring velocity in 1957, but the purpose of canister grade powder is to be consistent from lot to lot. Unless 2400 got nerfed years ago and I don't remember it, I can't imagine getting 1500fps out of a real world 6" gun with a dose at 15.5gr.

I've shot plenty of the old 14.5 standby and I think I got about what you'd expect a standard .357 to get out of a 4" barrel. I want to say mid 1200s but I could be misremembering. I know for a certainty that specific 686-5 has been crono'd on two different occasions with two different lots of Remington 125gr SJHPs and got over the cataloged 1450fps both times. So it's not like the barrel is slow. I doubt 1 grain is going to yield 300fps.

Lyman had to be using a long test barrel to get that.

[Half Moon]

That... I don't think that's right.

I don't know how they were measuring velocity in 1957, but the purpose of canister grade powder is to be consistent from lot to lot. Unless 2400 got nerfed years ago and I don't remember it, I can't imagine getting 1500fps out of a real world 6" gun with a dose at 15.5gr.

I've shot plenty of the old 14.5 standby and I think I got about what you'd expect a standard .357 to get out of a 4" barrel. I want to say mid 1200s but I could be misremembering. I know for a certainty that specific 686-5 has been crono'd on two different occasions with two different lots of Remington 125gr SJHPs and got over the cataloged 1450fps both times. So it's not like the barrel is slow. I doubt 1 grain is going to yield 300fps.

Lyman had to be using a long test barrel to get that.

I'm thinking it might more be the difference between an unvented test barrel and a real life revolver with a cylinder gap. Take a look at the test barrel numbers versus the real life numbers at BBTI:

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

The only real world tests that closely matches the test barrel is the lever action rifle and the Derringer which would both be a closed breech all the way to the barrel.

[jh9]

I'm thinking it might more be the difference between an unvented test barrel and a real life revolver with a cylinder gap. Take a look at the test barrel numbers versus the real life numbers at BBTI:

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

The only real world tests that closely matches the test barrel is the lever action rifle and the Derringer which would both be a closed breech all the way to the barrel.

Yeah. That's what I'm thinking. That in addition to whatever mechanism they used to calculate velocity before modern chronographs were available. Ballistic pendulum maybe? IDK.

I'm sure older factory ammo was hotter, but not 300fps hotter.

[jtcarm]

A rifle cartridge comparison would be 30/06. Years ago the pressure limit was always given as 50,000 CUP. Under the current system it's given as 60,000 psi. Has the pressure limit been raised?. Or is it the same amount of pressure measured two completely different ways?

Correct, CUP and PSI are two completely different measurements.

From what I’ve gleaned, there’s not even a formula for converting one to the other.

[zeleny]

Correct, CUP and PSI are two completely different measurements.

From what I’ve gleaned, there’s not even a formula for converting one to the other.Opinions differ: Denton Bramwell, “Correlating PSI and CUP”, 2002 (https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf).

[jtcarm]

That... I don't think that's right.

I don't know how they were measuring velocity in 1957, but the purpose of canister grade powder is to be consistent from lot to lot. Unless 2400 got nerfed years ago and I don't remember it, I can't imagine getting 1500fps out of a real world 6" gun with a dose at 15.5gr.

I've shot plenty of the old 14.5 standby and I think I got about what you'd expect a standard .357 to get out of a 4" barrel. I want to say mid 1200s but I could be misremembering. I know for a certainty that specific 686-5 has been crono'd on two different occasions with two different lots of Remington 125gr SJHPs and got over the cataloged 1450fps both times. So it's not like the barrel is slow. I doubt 1 grain is going to yield 300fps.

Lyman had to be using a long test barrel to get that.

My Lyman manuals don’t go back that far, but IIRC they used a universal receiver, so no B/C gap and it probably had a good bit of free-bore.