A proper #2

[SouthNarc]

For whatever reason I've been seeing alot of BAD retention position shooting around the 'net. Here's a pretty good piece of video that was shot from a class I did in New England last year. That's slightly abbreviated from the usual way I teach retention shooting in ECQC but you get the idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_pi0WIrho

[gtmtnbiker98]

Thanks for sharing.

[Shellback]

Thanks for posting that. Great info!

[KentF]

+1

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[Savage Hands]

Thanks for sharing!

[BigT]

Outstanding stuff!

[John Ralston]

Wasn't sure I wanted to watch a video of you doing a proper #2, but that wasn't what I expected ;)

Good stuff there - that is what I really like about this forum and TPI - great information presented for the benefit of all who are willing to seek it out.

[SouthNarc]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! You're a funny motherfucker John Ralston!!:D

[Dropkick]

Was that second part of that video from VCAST?

[SouthNarc]

No but that drill is in the VCAST course.

[Bill Lance]

I have a couple of DVD';s, but good reminder. I use that number two--and I absolutely think it is the best for the fight concept of carrying a pistol.

Bill

[Dropkick]

Are there any pros/cons to rotating your hips slightly (to the left, for right handed shooters) so that the Pec-Index aligns with the center line of the target when shooting from #2?

[SouthNarc]

Translating the Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu hip escape to the seated vertical plane is a cornerstone of how I teach maneuvering in a vehicle, whether that is shooting from interior to exterior, a gunfight within the confines of the driver's compartment, or de-buss. For the most part I feel like the hip escape offers far more pros than cons.

It's not only the hip shifting but also where you grasp the steering wheel and how you use that as a handle to pull and push yourself into position so that you don't muzzle mask yourself or a passenger. This will vary from strong-side hip, A-IWB and off-body carry in the vehicle.

[Dropkick]

Translating the Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu hip escape to the seated vertical plane is a cornerstone of how I teach maneuvering in a vehicle, whether that is shooting from interior to exterior, a gunfight within the confines of the driver's compartment, or de-buss. For the most part I feel like the hip escape offers far more pros than cons.

It's not only the hip shifting but also where you grasp the steering wheel and how you use that as a handle to pull and push yourself into position so that you don't muzzle mask yourself or a passenger. This will vary from strong-side hip, A-IWB and off-body carry in the vehicle.

I'm was asking more in regards for a standing engagement. But the above is good to know about seated problems.

[SouthNarc]

Ah I'm sorry I was still tracking you on the vehicle question previously.

If you have to turn into the shot to actually hit then okay, but what I see generally with guys that try and do that in a Sims evolution is that they tend to cross their centerline and lose the ability to stay upright if they don't move their feet also.

Does that make sense the way I wrote it?

[Dropkick]

Ah I'm sorry I was still tracking you on the vehicle question previously.

If you have to turn into the shot to actually hit then okay, but what I see generally with guys that try and do that in a Sims evolution is that they tend to cross their centerline and lose the ability to stay upright if they don't move their feet also.

Does that make sense the way I wrote it?

Yes, reminds me of a short clip I saw where you mentioned always keeping your hips squared up with un/known contacts while moving. Likewise, standing still the same should apply. I'm making the connection from A to B now. Thanks! :)

[phil_in_cs]

Are there any pros/cons to rotating your hips slightly (to the left, for right handed shooters) so that the Pec-Index aligns with the center line of the target when shooting from #2?

I have you talked into ECQC this fall, right?

[Dropkick]

I have you talked into ECQC this fall, right?

Yup. :D

[fm2]

Wasn't sure I wanted to watch a video of you doing a proper #2, but that wasn't what I expected ;)


LOL, and yet you still watched it.
Context, John Ralston, context.

[MTechnik]

LOL, and yet you still watched it.
Context, John Ralston, context.

He was hoping to see howard stern in a leglock.

[NickA]

Might be kind of a dumb question but is flagging the thumb to the pectoral only done when actually shooting from retention, or do you make that part of the draw every time?

[SouthNarc]

Part of the draw every time.

[NickA]

Part of the draw every time.
Thanks...I've been trained to tilt the gun out some at #2 to keep the slide clear, but it never felt natural. Flagging the thumb would seem to make it much more consistent.

[SmokeJumper]

Good stuff. I actually got to do this at a dept. training in an evolution we did with a vehicle on the range, it was a great tool to add to the tool box.

[VolGrad]

This thread isn't for shit. :p

Thanks for posting. What I like about your videos is seeing you don't have to be built like a linebacker to be a badass. I like that. Keep them coming.

[fm2]

Thanks...I've been trained to tilt the gun out some at #2 to keep the slide clear, but it never felt natural. Flagging the thumb would seem to make it much more consistent.
Having the gun kinda winged out from the body doesn't inspire confidence in your shot line.

The value of a stable #2 position usually isn't appreciated until it is REALLY NEEDED.

[NickA]

Having the gun kinda winged out from the body doesn't inspire confidence in your shot line
Exactly. Granted I've never really put it to the test but it just doesn't feel natural.

[TGS]

Confidence in the shot line, as in confidence of where your shot is going?

If so, the distance I was taught to use retention shooting at isn't really requiring much. What distance are you training to use retention shots for?

I was also taught to cant the gun, but not wing my elbow. My first shot I forgot to do such and the gun suffered a FTE from the slide making contact with my body. Does referencing the thumb against the pec give sufficient room for the slide to operate in an unperfect world? I personally would value the function of the weapon much more than techniques for accuracy on a contact shot......it seems pretty strange since they're so close, but I'm not sure if you also train to use shots from retention at a longer range than I was introduced to. We did all of our retention shots within a foot of the target in combination with either a blow to the face or grappling the target, so I never considered it for more than contact distances. Canting the gun almost completely horizontal also felt very natural to do such as it mimics the position my hand, wrist and arm would be in to punch somebody in the lower torso or genitalia.

Thanks

[Dropkick]

TGS,
This video might help explain things:
http://youtu.be/WlNlv_bRVKs

When I've got a peck index and compressed and high elbow, the muzzle is pointing at a 35*ish downward direction. Anyone a little over an arms length away the rounds will miss even low center mass.

The thing about shooting from this position, which isn't show in videos, is that it works in a lot of positions. You could be standing up, knocked down on your back, rolled over on your side.

[SouthNarc]

Confidence in the shot line, as in confidence of where your shot is going?

Yes.


If so, the distance I was taught to use retention shooting at isn't really requiring much. What distance are you training to use retention shots for?

If you're close enough to touch the adversary or they can touch you, then you need to hold a 2. Anything outside of touching distance is appropriate extension or compression based on proximity of threat. This is whether you are on your feet in the vertical plane or grounded in the horizontal plane.

The confidence you need is not only that you'll hit the adversary but NOT hit yourself. You only figure that out by trying retention position shooting with Simunitions in a completely unconsensual training environment with a partner that's willing to drive you through sheetrock.


Does referencing the thumb against the pec give sufficient room for the slide to operate in an unperfect world?

In teaching it that way since '94 with LE using concealed body armor, tactical officers using visible tactical armor carriers with exterior pouches and citizen students wearing everything from t-shirts to down parkas, the thumb/pectoral index seems to be the most reliable and consistent place to hold the gun when shooting from a retention position.

[NickA]

TGS - just to be clear what I was shown is as you describe, elbow tucked in and wrist canted (though not horizontal), done as part of the drawstroke. My previous description may have been lacking. It's just always felt a little awkward but that could be for any number of reasons including lack of practice.
That was in a couple of different basic classes and a brief seminar on retention. My experience actually shooting from #2 is very limited, so I'll leave the pro's and con's of each method to those of you who know much more than I do.

[TGS]

TGS - just to be clear what I was shown is as you describe, elbow tucked in and wrist canted (though not horizontal), done as part of the drawstroke. My previous description may have been lacking. It's just always felt a little awkward but that could be for any number of reasons including lack of practice.
That was in a couple of different basic classes and a brief seminar on retention. My experience actually shooting from #2 is very limited, so I'll leave the pro's and con's of each method to those of you who know much more than I do.

Thanks, Nick. My experience with taking a #2 is also very limited. I did some in 2 courses, but it wasn't the focus of the course only a part of it. I'd love to get some more training on it, but unfortunately ShivWorks isn't running another Culpeper ECQC course anytime soon and I don't know of any other retention/close quarters instructors in the area. Maybe I'll send an email to John Murphy(FPF Training) or Noel of VATactical and ask if they have the experience to run a one day seminar in the NoVa area.

[TGS]

Yes.



If you're close enough to touch the adversary or they can touch you, then you need to hold a 2. Anything outside of touching distance is appropriate extension or compression based on proximity of threat. This is whether you are on your feet in the vertical plane or grounded in the horizontal plane.

The confidence you need is not only that you'll hit the adversary but NOT hit yourself. You only figure that out by trying retention position shooting with Simunitions in a completely unconsensual training environment with a partner that's willing to drive you through sheetrock.



In teaching it that way since '94 with LE using concealed body armor, tactical officers using visible tactical armor carriers with exterior pouches and citizen students wearing everything from t-shirts to down parkas, the thumb/pectoral index seems to be the most reliable and consistent place to hold the gun when shooting from a retention position.

Thanks SouthNarc! If you won't be in the Virginia area for the rest of the year, do you have any instructors that you could recommend for training this stuff?

When I learned it, we were taught to aim for the pelvis simply as a means of giving ourselves a large margin for error in not shooting our defensive arm. IIRC, we were taught to reference at the hip with the butt of the handgun, and the thumb/pec thing wasn't touched on. At least thats the way I've remembered to reference, as it's in keeping with the limited knife fighting techniques I learned in Arnise and MCMAP on where to keep the knife(tight against the hip).

[NickA]

My experience with taking a #2 is also very limited.
Must. Resist. Poop joke.:)
Looks like it got all cleared up while I was slow-typing, just wanted to make sure I wasn't causing a problem.
Thanks again to all for the great info.

[SouthNarc]

I don't have any instructors at all TGS but there are plenty of guys in your neck of the woods who have done the coursework who should be able to coach a good 2 for you. I'll try and rustle some names.

[irishshooter]

with a partner that's willing to drive you through sheetrock.


this is what its about. what an awesome quote.

[Joe Chen]

Sorry for the necropost. I recently saw a video where SN is working an IPSC target with live fire and talks about leaning in and pulling the attacker toward you instead of leaning back a la speed rock. Having trouble finding it again, and have no idea where I saw it. Any leads?

[Josh Runkle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ_pi0WIrho

Looks like Rob Pincus behind you.

[SouthNarc]

Looks like Rob Pincus behind you.



It is. And that's Debethencort that's doing the standing demo with me. This was at the NE Shooters Conference.

[Joe Chen]

Not the video I had in mind. This one was a live fire exercise shot from a low angle, multiple shots on target. A quick talk on pulling the opponent in instead of rocking back.

SN - been working on jits so I hopefully don't lose EVERY contact next class. I know you say it's not about winning or losing, but I'd like to find out if there's also something to be learned from not getting shot in the face.

[justintime]

finally something i'm an authority in! the art of taking a proper #2!

[JFK]

1.) How can this thread go two + years and 4+ pages without anyone saying "phrasing"?

2.) After taking ECQC twice, working the thumb flag thing into your normal draw, if you use a press out is extremely easy and relatively natural, especially if you carry appendix. I would say, however it is something that benefits from seeing in person and having hands on instruction.

I would like to add, about the reliability of it....

I try to practice this whenever I can and I have yet to induce a failure because of it. Although being left handed I need to make sure my mouth is close or I get a nice hot brass lunch... Now if I can find a way to do this without getting GSR on my Huntsman Bespoke... Life would be good.

[TCinVA]

SN - been working on jits so I hopefully don't lose EVERY contact next class. I know you say it's not about winning or losing, but I'd like to find out if there's also something to be learned from not getting shot in the face.

Of course. You learn that being shot in the groin or the taint repeatedly is also unpleasant.

As for the #2, just like I said in my writeup on the blog, the utility of the #2 position is instantly clear the first time you find yourself on the ground trying to shoot someone entangled with you.

[Joseph B.]

I have always ran the retention firing position with a slight outboard roll, but the “thumb flag” looks a bit more natural to the draw stroke. I am going to give a few reps this next weekend and see how it feels.