Vacaville, CA officer separated from K9 after punching dog during training

[0ddl0t]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z46Zr-fqSUk


A short clip posted on Facebook last Monday shows an officer with the dog pinned between his legs near a warehouse on Vaca Valley Parkway. At one point, he reaches back and strikes the dog. According to witness Robert Palomino, the officer punched the dog repeatedly before he caught the incident on camera.
https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/K-9-removed-from-home-of-Vacaville-police-officer-15842781.php

[UNM1136]

Not enough information here to form an opinion. I have "souvenirs" from more than one canine that thought he could beat the handler. Don't misunderstand me... I have worked more than a few dogs as a decoy, and as a trainer. The dogs recruited into police work tend to be very hard and very sharp, unless you get a really, really great dog. Then they can separate training from deployment, and demo from 'work'. My old agency does demos to elementary school aged kids with their carefully selected and trained canines where the kids are tugging on tails and ears.

Canine work is complex. Not only involving dogs and handlers, but dogs and handlers and decoys and non-involved folks. It is very easy to anthropomorphize these fantastic animals, and thus sell them short.

Coyotesfan97.

pat

[vcdgrips]

To the Certified K9 operators and/or those with firsthand experience in this realm as a LEO/MIL/GOVT/Breeder etc. on the forum:

Care to comment. Understand if you do not. I am interested in hearing from those with the education/training/experience in this realm.

Blessings to you all.

DB

[El Cid]

I don't care if all the K9 experts say that behavior is okay, or necessary, or whatever... the handler in that video is a cowardly oxygen thief and I hope he's fired for cause. I'd have charged him with animal cruelty if it was my decision to make. It's not the 1940's anymore and we know training a dog doesn't require pain or violence. I'm betting the handler has complaints from citizens too - he appears to lack the temperament to be in LE.

[Robert Mitchum]

https://youtu.be/wpHKbsOAjiM

[Wendell]

There's a scene like this in the movie The Mustang (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5952594/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_25).

It stars Matthias Schoenaerts, and it's worth watching (if you haven't already).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2a-KSOCIeY

[Poconnor]

I think a lot of K-9 trainers are still using a dominance type of training. I watched the video and it looked pretty normal for a hard dog being a knuckle head. It’s a lot like watching people spank their kids in Walmart. I used dominance training on my bull terrier but that was over 25 years ago. Once while playing with my bull terrier with a large rope he re bit and got my hand and the rope. One fang got my hand thankfully between the bones in my palm. He sank that fang all the way in. Thank god I trained him to release on command. My hand swelled up so much I couldn’t bend my fingers not to mention the large hole.
Now the positive reinforcement training is all the rage. (I still miss that dog) I don’t know if the soft training would be effective on a hard dog. Large hard dogs are dangerous. I’m of the opinion if you can’t or won’t train your large dog you shouldn’t have the dog. I had to remove a Rottweiler from a home because the family never trained the dog at all and once the dog figured out it could jump the five foot back fence the dog tried to kill the mailman a few times.
I’m training our new dog the new soft way. But she is a small twenty lb dog that is a sweetheart and works for Cheerios . I talked to many schutzhund trainers over the years. 50 years ago the problem was getting dog that would bite a human. Now the problem is getting the dog to stop biting. K-9 dogs are not pets; they are working dogs. They are a very specialized tool and a great one is worth their weight in gold. A bad dog and or a bad handler is dangerous. Usually it’s the handler. If the handler is lazy the dog is worthless. Sometimes departments go cheap or expect too much from the dog. Don’t expect the dog to work for anybody. Don’t change handlers. Don’t expect the dog to be super dog. If you want a patrol dog, drug dog or bomb dog. Pick one dog for each or if you have to do patrol plus one other. Personally i think bomb dogs should be dedicated to just bombs. It’s not the odds; it’s the stakes. Try and clear your local high school with a drug/ bomb dog. Good luck. Actually I prefer a bomb robot over a bomb dog. But that’s a whole other subject

[Coyotesfan97]

This is my opinion. I don’t know any of the details in this incident other than third hand information.

This might be a long post. I was never a trainer but just being a handler you learn things. The analogy I’ve heard and like is breeders/trainers are like car manufacturers. They “build” the product. Police K9 trainers are like auto mechanics. They fix problems. Handlers are the end users or the drivers. Sometimes “drivers” take things to far and do stuff the “mechanics” never intended.

Frankly punching is a stupid way to discipline a dog. From what I understand the trainer involved uses “Alpha Rolls” to establish dominance over the dog. The thinking is if your partner challenges you you physically dominate him until he submits. Police Dogs will try to challenge you because they are high drive dogs that are bred and trained to do things that most dogs would never consider. The thing is if you are doing alpha rolls you better be picking your battles and making sure it’s worth it.

One of the problems is it has to be pretty calculated with a police dog because you run the risk of fight or flight. You really don’t want to push a police dog to the point where he says fuck it if I don’t run I’ll die. He’s broken now. You just trained him to flee during a fight. The other problem is you push far enough that he decides he’s got to fight or I’ll die. Now you’ve got a berserker on your hands.

From the video and what I’ve heard the dog didn’t want to give up his toy during training and came up the leash on the handler. Yep that’s a bad day and that’s something you can’t let go unchallenged. The dog is trying to be the alpha and if he senses fear he’s got your number and he’ll keep challenging you. I don’t know what happened to cause that. I don’t know how the handler was trying to get the toy back but the dog decided fuck you and tried to bite him. Unless he put holes in you and isn’t actively trying to bite you put him back in the car and take it to the trainer to fix.

The dog not wanting to out the toy is a problem you take to the trainer and you both work on fixing it. I won’t go into the various methods other than one method might be a second toy. When he outs the toy he gets the second one and you play with him. Rinse and repeat and hopefully it gets into his little pea brain that if I give up my toy I get another and good things happen. Does that mean he gets a second toy during detection training or deployments? No but I’m means he’ll out because he thinks he’ll get another toy. He does his work again and gets rewarded. It sounds simple. Command, mark the behavior, and reward or correct depending on the outcome. If you’re giving a dog a command he knows then he’s got to make the right decision. Letting go is a learned decision. He knows what you’re telling him.

Another way is corrections whether it’s leash or e-collar. The out command is given. If he outs he gets rewarded with good boy. If he doesn’t he gets a correction. Eventually it gets through to him he does what you tell him and he gets a good boy or he doesn’t and he gets a correction.

The parking lot of a fire station probably isn’t the place you want to do that. If you’re doing alpha rolls you can generally induce the same behavior you want to fix on the training field in a controlled environment with the dog muzzled. Yep muzzled because if your physically controlling a bite trained dog you’re going to get bit. I don’t know if the handler in the video was bitten but punching a bite trained dog usually gets you a hand bite.

A police dog that becomes handler aggressive is a pretty scary thing. If you’ve got a dog on lead with the leash attached to the live ring you have a chance at catching him and correcting him. If it’s on the dead ring less of a chance and if it’s on a harness yeah it’s a pretty much a sure thing you’re getting extra holes. One of the most scary things I saw in my career was a handler aggressive dog go after one of our handler/trainers. One of the best trainers I’ve worked with. He had a new dog that had already bitten a handler. Something triggered that dog and he turned on him and was actively trying to seriously bite him. The trainer got him to miss twice but the third time he got a bad arm bite. Luckily it was on the training field and we could get the dog off right away.

If you play with bite trained dogs you’re going to be bit. It’s a fact. It’s the first thing I tell people who want to do K9. We require going through an agitation/decoy school to test for K9. It washes people out.

Like Pat said Police K9 work is a complex in depth field. Dogs don’t think like we do and we don’t think like dogs. Dogs are brilliant at reading us and are capable of training us. You’re dealing with genetics and specifically bred dogs that are trained to find and bite, if needed, humans. The dogs we use are the professional athletes of the canine world. Malinois are the smartest dumbest dogs you’ll ever meet. They are highly trained but have the impulse control of a toddler. It takes a special (take that either way you want) person to handle a dog. It’s a lifestyle change to go to K9. It was the best job I ever had.

I liked the video Robert Mitchum. I enjoyed watching it.

[Oldherkpilot]

I don't care if all the K9 experts say that behavior is okay, or necessary, or whatever... the handler in that video is a cowardly oxygen thief and I hope he's fired for cause. I'd have charged him with animal cruelty if it was my decision to make. It's not the 1940's anymore and we know training a dog doesn't require pain or violence. I'm betting the handler has complaints from citizens too - he appears to lack the temperament to be in LE.



You got all that from a 1 minute video?

[El Cid]

You got all that from a 1 minute video?

Yep. People who hurt animals are in their own category. And if he treats his partner that way, how will he treat subjects?

[Suvorov]

This is my opinion. I don’t know any of the details in this incident other than third hand information......

Wouldn’t it be nice if the news that reported this story would have provided 1/1000th of the context you just provided? Instead we get a pretty face who just graduated college warning us about how *disturbing* the video they are about to show is.

Thanks for your excellent reply.

[WobblyPossum]

Thanks Coyotesfan97. I hadn’t thought about the context you provided as I’ve never been a K9 handler.

[Bratch]

A police dog that becomes handler aggressive is a pretty scary thing. If you’ve got a dog on lead with the leash attached to the live ring you have a chance at catching him and correcting him. If it’s on the dead ring less of a chance and if it’s on a harness yeah it’s a pretty much a sure thing you’re getting extra holes. One of the most scary things I saw in my career was a handler aggressive dog go after one of our handler/trainers. One of the best trainers I’ve worked with. He had a new dog that had already bitten a handler. Something triggered that dog and he turned on him and was actively trying to seriously bite him. The trainer got him to miss twice but the third time he got a bad arm bite. Luckily it was on the training field and we could get the dog off right away.


Awesome post.

We adopted a 2 y/o GSD 6 months ago that had bounced around a little. We took him to training immediately to start getting some manners. The first night we had him I tried to measure his neck for a new collar and he got snippy. The second day at training the trainer wanted to try a pinch collar because he was pulling hard. Went to put the collar on and he came up the leash with an “I’m going to kill you” attitude. Put him on the tie out lines and let him calm down for the rest of class. I’m convinced that someone over trained him with a collar in his past. We can now put collars on and off for the most part and have been able to use a plastic pinch, he gets weird but isn’t aggressive. Him coming up the leash like that was a scary sight luckily he didn’t get anyone and at 6’3” I could hold him up until he chilled a little

[paherne]

I don't care if all the K9 experts say that behavior is okay, or necessary, or whatever... the handler in that video is a cowardly oxygen thief and I hope he's fired for cause. I'd have charged him with animal cruelty if it was my decision to make. It's not the 1940's anymore and we know training a dog doesn't require pain or violence. I'm betting the handler has complaints from citizens too - he appears to lack the temperament to be in LE.

So, are you or have you been a K9 handler?

[El Cid]

So, are you or have you been a K9 handler?

Nope. Don't need to be in order to recognize unacceptable behavior. But feel free to read Cotyotesfan97's post if you want an expert opinion.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who harms an animal (except in defense of self or others) is deserving of wearing handcuffs - badge or no badge.

[paherne]

Nope. Don't need to be in order to recognize unacceptable behavior. But feel free to read Cotyotesfan97's post if you want an expert opinion.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who harms an animal (except in defense of self or others) is deserving of wearing handcuffs - badge or no badge.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has an emotional reaction to a video of part of an incident, without context or the backstory is probably going to make a fine LE administrator some day. Don't need an expert opinion, I'd qualify as one in court.

[Crawls]

Nope. Don't need to be in order to recognize unacceptable behavior. But feel free to read Cotyotesfan97's post if you want an expert opinion.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who harms an animal (except in defense of self or others) is deserving of wearing handcuffs - badge or no badge.

Did he really harm the dog? Really?

I think you're confusing a correction with causing physical harm. Though I don't like the officers chosen method in the video, I'm not going to criticize the actions until I know more about the dog and more about the actions that proceeded the alpha roll. I know the correction shown in the video is way beyond what is necessary with most dogs, but I've seen very high drive dogs take a correction like this an re-engage with the bad behavior like nothing ever happened - almost like they enjoyed the reaction they got out of their handler. It's a tough balance to maintain. You want the dog to be full of confidence and lacking of any fear. But the dog needs to be responsible to the handler and respect the handler's authority. It can be a serious safety issue if you don't get that aggression under check. I have a friend and co-worker who lost an eye and almost lost a bicep to a dog who came up his leash. I worked with a professional decoy who nearly died after a GSD reengaged following a release and purposefully went up the guy's bite suit to get his neck. If you don't curb that aggression, be prepared for the handcuffs after your dog really harms someone else.

If you really feel the officer in the video is harming the dog, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on pinch collars, e-collars or even the concept of neutering animals to curb aggression. There is a huge spectrum of tools and techniques out there used to train our canine friends. The level of correction in the video applied to a "hard" dog pales in relative comparison to corrections I see all the time by untrained owners on their unsuspecting pets.

[El Cid]

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has an emotional reaction to a video of part of an incident, without context or the backstory is probably going to make a fine LE administrator some day. Don't need an expert opinion, I'd qualify as one in court.

lol! Stop... please... you're gonna hurt my feelings. :rolleyes:

Some things (especially video) don't need the "rest of the story." The dog is not a threat to the handler or anyone - it's pinned under his weight. But by all means, let's hear your "expertise" so you can explain why punching a dog repeatedly in the face is acceptable.


Did he really harm the dog? Really?

I think you're confusing a correction with causing physical harm. Though I don't like the officers chosen method in the video, I'm not going to criticize the actions until I know more about the dog and more about the actions that proceeded the alpha roll. I know the correction shown in the video is way beyond what is necessary with most dogs, but I've seen very high drive dogs take a correction like this an re-engage with the bad behavior like nothing ever happened - almost like they enjoyed the reaction they got out of their handler. It's a tough balance to maintain. You want the dog to be full of confidence and lacking of any fear. But the dog needs to be responsible to the handler and respect the handler's authority. It can be a serious safety issue if you don't get that aggression under check. I have a friend and co-worker who lost an eye and almost lost a bicep to a dog who came up his leash. I worked with a professional decoy who nearly died after a GSD reengaged following a release and purposefully went up the guy's bite suit to get his neck. If you don't curb that aggression, be prepared for the handcuffs after your dog really harms someone else.

If you really feel the officer in the video is harming the dog, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on pinch collars, e-collars or even the concept of neutering animals to curb aggression. There is a huge spectrum of tools and techniques out there used to train our canine friends. The level of correction in the video applied to a "hard" dog pales in relative comparison to corrections I see all the time by untrained owners on their unsuspecting pets.

Those punches look fast and hard to me. And they are closed fist strikes, not open hand slaps. While most K9 handlers are professional and love their dogs, there are many who do it for the wrong reasons - to include special pay, improved schedules, better vehicle, etc. And we have plenty of overly aggressive assholes in LE. When one of those types of cops gets a partner that can't talk back or tell others what he does... sometimes you get officers who abuse their animals. Like so many things in life, some folks just don't have the right attitude to be trusted with the welfare of another living thing. And people show their true colors when they believe nobody is watching... just like the clown in the video.

I'm not a fan of electronic collars or fences. Pinch or choke collars work sometimes, depending on the dog, but can be abused like anything else.

[UNM1136]

Some more thinking.

There are plenty of trainers who can take a sharp, hard dog and get it through a course with some old school, potentially barbaric techniques. Table training is an example, if done like many do it. Like anything else in dog training some of the tranining concepts can be valid, but when your only tool is a hammer....They look for someone who wants a hard dog, and sell the dog down the road.

Two of the best dogs I have seen work in my career were the smallest, hairiest furballs I have seen. They were trained old school (both were Czech long haired GSDs) "yank and crank" and had serious chips on their shoulders. The vendor discounted the dogs due to how hard they were. One of them owned me during my early days decoying. He knew when he smelled me I was a chew toy and he would not give me up. This dog more than once was choked unconcious to get him off of me. And he frequently regained consciousness trying to bite. The proudest day in my decoying career was keeping him clean with stick corrections while wearing only a bite sleeve. He challenged his handler freely, at every opportunity. I still have a driver's license with teeth marks in it, where my wallet was used for an evidence search. Handler got bit getting my wallet back.

Then came time to deploy. We were looking for a homicide suspect, and I was in plain clothes, and I was the only available cover officer for the handler. Both the hadler and I tensed up as the dog cruised over to me, gave me a sniff and wandered off in the area search. I like to imagine a chin jut, saying "come with me, bro". We searched a couple of city blocks and he never once fired on me, or the handler. The only street bite I recall from this dog was spitting out an arm and biting an incoming fist on a robbery suspect as dude tried to punch dog. Several bones were broken in the hand. RIP Agar.

When you look at dog training over the years hard dogs were sought because they had to be hard to survive the training. Some trainers still train that way, and train handlers in that way. We talk frequently about "not knowing what you don"t know". With the explosion of the need for working dogs since 9/11, there weren't that many hard dogs to go around. Litters were selection tested and the weaker dogs culled while the "good" dogs got top dollar. Breeders, vendors, and trainers had to make due with more and more "marginal" dogs, and they had find ways to train the dogs to a standard. Suddenly by finding different ways to train may have taken longer, but many of those marginal dogs became stellar performers. The word "balanced" entered the converstion at several points.

Now the hard core old school "crank and yank" trainers are falling away. It is good to know some of the crank and yank stuff in case it becomes necessary with a specific dog with a specific problem, but they are fortunately in the minority. My best friend's GSD was trained old school and was a nervy bastard. No confidence, afraid of getting the shit beat out of him if acted out. He walked around head down, tail down, and he barked at everything, usually over his shoulder unless he thought he was going to get a bite. Then he was all business. A new vendor, a new trainer, and a new training philosophy over the course of about 12 weeks completelly transformed this dog. He is now confident, and it shows in his body language as he walks around. Total transformation in a six year old dog.

Dog training by and large has gotten better over the last three or so decades, and everyone benefits from the improvements. Especially the dogs.

pat