Please recommend good instructor's courses

[DacoRoman]

I may be in the un-enviable position of needing to provide some basic training in my area, to fill a need for a good number of beginners.

My experience level is decent in the general sense, but pretty modest vis a vis the experience level on this forum. Please refer to the classes I've taken in my "about me" page for reference. I have given informal lessons to beginners before, with, I believe, acceptable results.

So I'm exploring the issue.

If I agree to give people lessons, I feel like I ought to charge a nominal fee, just to eliminate people that are not serious, and to cover range materials, and possibly some sort of insurance? The more I think about it, the less I want to do it actually.

If I was to charge a fee, I would want to get some sort of certification. This would be pretty expensive these days, given ammo costs, and also because I don't live within easy driving range to a course. When I lived in the DFW area I could have gone to CSAT that offers instructor's courses. When I lived in N. GA I could have taken a course from Tom Givens. Ammo is another obvious problem now.

I now live in N. AZ. and Gunsite is close, but I have to see if they even offer instructor's courses. Frankly I'd rather take the Tom Givens course, and the CSAT course, but traveling will be an issue.

Is NRA instructor certification worth considering? Will it be the low hanging fruit to reach for to start with?

Again, currently, this is in the realm of thought experiment and data gathering only. But I can think of no better place to ask for help regarding exploring this issue than in this forum.

Thanks y'all!

[Moylan]

If I was to charge a fee, I would want to get some sort of certification.
Why?

Certification as such is meaningless. Your training resume suggests that you have a pretty solid background and are more than knowledgeable enough to be able to teach the basics to beginners. The idea that you need a certificate that says so before you can do it....that's a mistake.

If you are actually saying that before you teach, you'd like to spend some time with a master teacher learning how to teach, then that's different and of course it's a wonderful idea, especially if you're not very comfortable or confident teaching people, or if you've never put together any kind of lesson plan, or whatever. But certification for certification's sake is, in my opinion, pointless.



Is NRA instructor certification worth considering?

IMHO, no. The NRA doesn't teach you how to teach, it walks you through reading their slides to your students, at least at the low levels. In their instructor classes, you don't read slides in front of real students, and you don't coach any real students on the line. Just fellow instructor students. I'm not sure how things work in their higher level classes like PPOTH.

One alternative to the NRA is Project Appleseed, which I'd like to plug for. Their instructor training program is like the NRA's in one sense, because they don't teach you to design a curriculum, they teach you to deliver theirs. But in other ways, it's radically different, because you're doing this live, running real firing lines, coaching real paying students, and giving real instruction. The program is best known for its traditional rifle marksmanship program, but they are rolling out a pistol program now, too (roughly similar to NRA Basic Pistol, but better, IMHO), so you can get both rifle and pistol certified, depending on how active Appleseed is in your neck of the woods. And it's dirt cheap. You must shoot at two Appleseed clinics as a paying customer, which is very cheap, and then after that the instructor training program is all free, since you're working for them as a volunteer.

I'm not saying you need these certifications (see above!) but I am saying that Appleseed presents an inexpensive way to get meaningful instructor certification if you want it, and simultaneously to get real experience teaching, all while doing some important volunteer work teaching people about our American heritage, and spending time at the range with some super high quality people.

(Hopefully it's obvious that nothing I've said above is meant in any way to suggest that I'm somehow arguing against taking an instructor class with someone like Tom Givens. If you have the opportunity, there are all kinds of reasons to pursue that. I'm just talking in a context where you're trying to think through alternatives since classes like Givens's are a long way away and might be very expensive for ammo and travel related reasons.)

[Totem Polar]

The above post about covers it. I’m not big on paper creds—and I say this as a university faculty member. The only thing I’d observe is that your resume—which is pretty cool so far—is skewed a bit towards high speed. Maybe look at a more civilian/edc course (eg. Givens et al.) as a longer range goal for some ideas and POI structure and then get after it. JMO.

[JAD]

I think Givens would do an unmatchable job of teaching your how to teach. While you may have to travel he goes to places that are cheap.

[Kanye Wyoming]

I think Givens would do an unmatchable job of teaching your how to teach. While you may have to travel he goes to places that are cheap.
What he said. I took the instructor class this past August and I feel confident now that I have the tools to take someone who is below a 6 out of 10 up to a 6, maybe even a 6.5.

I happened to take a gander at the Rangemaster schedule just now and in April Tom is holding several instructor classes in various parts of Texas. Not quite an easy drive from Northern Arizona, but an easy and probably a cheap flight.

[Wendell]

Great question!

Related threads:

Becoming an Instructor
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2682-Becoming-an-Instructor

NRA Instructor Certification VS Anything else...
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3065-NRA-Instructor-Certification-VS-Anything-else

The journey of becoming a firearms instructor. Advice requested.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20680-The-journey-of-becoming-a-firearms-instructor-Advice-requested

So you're an instructor, hm?
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7596-So-you-re-an-instructor-hm

NRA Certified Instructor
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19349-NRA-Certified-Instructor

[vcdgrips]

What JAD said.

Tom Givens is one of the last 1st Gen post Cooper pistolcraft
masters still teaching.

He understands that the pinnacle of pistolcraft was not reached in 1980 or 1990 or 2000.

Like all high level bodily kinesthetic endeavors, pistolcraft and the teaching of the same is an evolving, breathing thing.

Take his instructor class while you can.

[DacoRoman]

Why?

Certification as such is meaningless. Your training resume suggests that you have a pretty solid background and are more than knowledgeable enough to be able to teach the basics to beginners. The idea that you need a certificate that says so before you can do it....that's a mistake.

If you are actually saying that before you teach, you'd like to spend some time with a master teacher learning how to teach, then that's different and of course it's a wonderful idea, especially if you're not very comfortable or confident teaching people, or if you've never put together any kind of lesson plan, or whatever. But certification for certification's sake is, in my opinion, pointless.




IMHO, no. The NRA doesn't teach you how to teach, it walks you through reading their slides to your students, at least at the low levels. In their instructor classes, you don't read slides in front of real students, and you don't coach any real students on the line. Just fellow instructor students. I'm not sure how things work in their higher level classes like PPOTH.

One alternative to the NRA is Project Appleseed, which I'd like to plug for. Their instructor training program is like the NRA's in one sense, because they don't teach you to design a curriculum, they teach you to deliver theirs. But in other ways, it's radically different, because you're doing this live, running real firing lines, coaching real paying students, and giving real instruction. The program is best known for its traditional rifle marksmanship program, but they are rolling out a pistol program now, too (roughly similar to NRA Basic Pistol, but better, IMHO), so you can get both rifle and pistol certified, depending on how active Appleseed is in your neck of the woods. And it's dirt cheap. You must shoot at two Appleseed clinics as a paying customer, which is very cheap, and then after that the instructor training program is all free, since you're working for them as a volunteer.

I'm not saying you need these certifications (see above!) but I am saying that Appleseed presents an inexpensive way to get meaningful instructor certification if you want it, and simultaneously to get real experience teaching, all while doing some important volunteer work teaching people about our American heritage, and spending time at the range with some super high quality people.

(Hopefully it's obvious that nothing I've said above is meant in any way to suggest that I'm somehow arguing against taking an instructor class with someone like Tom Givens. If you have the opportunity, there are all kinds of reasons to pursue that. I'm just talking in a context where you're trying to think through alternatives since classes like Givens's are a long way away and might be very expensive for ammo and travel related reasons.)

Thank you very much for your thoughts and great information, you've given me some great things to consider for sure!

[DacoRoman]

The above post about covers it. I’m not big on paper creds—and I say this as a university faculty member. The only thing I’d observe is that your resume—which is pretty cool so far—is skewed a bit towards high speed. Maybe look at a more civilian/edc course (eg. Givens et al.) as a longer range goal for some ideas and POI structure and then get after it. JMO.

Yes, I totally get what you are saying about my skewed resume, good points. Thank you for your input!

[DacoRoman]

I think Givens would do an unmatchable job of teaching your how to teach. While you may have to travel he goes to places that are cheap.

Thanks for your input...I'm really starting to chomp at the bit to take that Rangemaster Instructor Development course at some point.

[DacoRoman]

What he said. I took the instructor class this past August and I feel confident now that I have the tools to take someone who is below a 6 out of 10 up to a 6, maybe even a 6.5.

I happened to take a gander at the Rangemaster schedule just now and in April Tom is holding several instructor classes in various parts of Texas. Not quite an easy drive from Northern Arizona, but an easy and probably a cheap flight.

That's awesome that you had the opportunity to take that class! Great validation too, that you found it very useful.

My Sister in Law lives in Dallas...and my wife always laments that I never want to go with her when she visits over there, so now I'll be like...."OK, so when are we going to visit your sister!?" ;)

Thank you for your input!

[DacoRoman]

Great question!

Related threads:

Becoming an Instructor
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2682-Becoming-an-Instructor

NRA Instructor Certification VS Anything else...
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3065-NRA-Instructor-Certification-VS-Anything-else

The journey of becoming a firearms instructor. Advice requested.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20680-The-journey-of-becoming-a-firearms-instructor-Advice-requested

So you're an instructor, hm?
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7596-So-you-re-an-instructor-hm

NRA Certified Instructor
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19349-NRA-Certified-Instructor

Super awesome! Thank you so much for that, I really appreciate it!

[DacoRoman]

What JAD said.

Tom Givens is one of the last 1st Gen post Cooper pistolcraft
masters still teaching.

He understands that the pinnacle of pistolcraft was not reached in 1980 or 1990 or 2000.

Like all high level bodily kinesthetic endeavors, pistolcraft and the teaching of the same is an evolving, breathing thing.

Take his instructor class while you can.


Well said, and great point. Thanks!

[Mike C]

DacoRoman I have also taken Tom Givens' instructor course and to put it mildly it is the best class I have ever taken. Everything is covered and covered well. You get a higher quantity and quality of information in three days than you get from other's in five. The material alone is worth the price of admission, let alone the statistical information and range work. I would disagree with others about not needing a certification, mainly from the standpoint of liability and personal responsibility.

I would absolutely want to have some sort of a certification for training as justification for what is taught and why so that in the even of a student shooting, injury or whatever if you are called to a stand you have good reason to say I taught XYZ; this is why. Not to point the finger to someone else but provide aid to a student if necessary in their defense, or yours if you are called into question. I have thought long and hard about instructing and it is not something to be taken lightly. Tom will repeatedly tell you so and he is THE authority. Not to sound like a fanboy it is just the truth.

I am not saying this to discourage you but encourage you to seek instructor level training from Mr. Givens. I believe that Mr. Givens is correct in saying that instructing/teaching is truly a matter of life and death, it is serious deadly business. Apologies if I miss quoted. The POI matters significantly but IMHO it is the why behind the how that is absolutely necessary. Being able to articulate or at least being able to speak intelligently/intelligibly about all manners of weapons, safety characteristics, functions, marksmanship, modern defensive techniques and reasons for being armed at all times are just the start. This is just some dude on the internets opinion so you can take all this for what it's worth but do think about every aspect. You will be open for scrutiny and liability if something goes wrong or even right for that matter with any one of your students. Best of luck.

[David S.]

What type or level of instruction are you expecting to do?

[DacoRoman]

DacoRoman I have also taken Tom Givens' instructor course and to put it mildly it is the best class I have ever taken. Everything is covered and covered well. You get a higher quantity and quality of information in three days than you get from other's in five. The material alone is worth the price of admission, let alone the statistical information and range work. I would disagree with others about not needing a certification, mainly from the standpoint of liability and personal responsibility.

I would absolutely want to have some sort of a certification for training as justification for what is taught and why so that in the even of a student shooting, injury or whatever if you are called to a stand you have good reason to say I taught XYZ; this is why. Not to point the finger to someone else but provide aid to a student if necessary in their defense, or yours if you are called into question. I have thought long and hard about instructing and it is not something to be taken lightly. Tom will repeatedly tell you so and he is THE authority. Not to sound like a fanboy it is just the truth.

I am not saying this to discourage you but encourage you to seek instructor level training from Mr. Givens. I believe that Mr. Givens is correct in saying that instructing/teaching is truly a matter of life and death, it is serious deadly business. Apologies if I miss quoted. The POI matters significantly but IMHO it is the why behind the how that is absolutely necessary. Being able to articulate or at least being able to speak intelligently/intelligibly about all manners of weapons, safety characteristics, functions, marksmanship, modern defensive techniques and reasons for being armed at all times are just the start. This is just some dude on the internets opinion so you can take all this for what it's worth but do think about every aspect. You will be open for scrutiny and liability if something goes wrong or even right for that matter with any one of your students. Best of luck.

Excellent points that are resonating very strongly. Thanks for taking the time. Other than wanting to provide solid instruction, the liability issue is probably the most daunting factor in this whole equation for sure.

I’m pretty much convinced that taking the Tom Givens instructor’s course, if I can swing it, will be all win.

[DacoRoman]

What type or level of instruction are you expecting to do?

The students are new gun owners in the community with zero, or bad habit, experience, so it would have to include:

Basic stop the bleed and activate Emergency Response safety brief
Basic gun safety Rules
Range safety etiquette

Proper administrative handling, loading, unloading
Stance, grip, ready positions, presentations
Sight and trigger management
Safe Basic Retention and Movement
Holster Presentations and Re-holstering, OWB, IWB
Presentations from concealment, OWB, IWB
Malfunctions
Reloads, tactical, emergency
Cover/Concealment indoctrination
Self Defense Anatomy and ballistics
Dispelling stopping power myths


I’d want to introduce them to the OODA loop and relay the pearls from Dr. Aprill’s excellent “Unthinkable” Lecture, may Dr. Aprill R.I.P.

Optimizing and refining a proper gear load out will be needed at some point, maybe even as a preliminary thing, but I’d also like to help people be safe and effective with what they have... which in most cases will be a gun and the box it came in.

Then when appropriate, if ever, also considering the ammo problem , timed standards and drills, shooting and moving
, getting off the X, etc.

And that’s just off the top of my head. I’d have to carefully devise a step by step curriculum.

Due to the ammo issue a good gas blow back airsoft clone would be super helpful too I think. But that’s additional cost and maintenance that most won’t be into.

[David S.]

The students are new gun owners in the community with zero, or bad habit, experience, so it would have to include:

Is the potential student base big enough to host existing instructors?

Independence Training (https://www.independencetraining.com/), for instance, does all that. Several years ago I attended a SouthNarc ECQC that they hosted in Prescott / Chino Valley area. They regularly co-instruct with Cecil Burch.

AJZ also teaches in the Prescott / Prescott Valley area. I'm sure there are others. I'm not trying to talk you out of instructing, just making sure you are availing yourself of existing resources.

In my very limited experience working with new shooters, I find a lot of benefit to short 1-2 hour, low student count lessons that methodically work a couple specific things. It's a better way to learn a new skill than the typical two day class. It's also a niche that most full time instructors can't afford to work in, or rather most new students can't afford their $100-250/hr rates.

For instance, I'm working a co-worker now who had no previous experience.

The first range trip was for funzies and casual introduction. Then he decided to get serious.
The second trip we worked loading and unloading, introduced basic marksmanship fundamentals and hammered on The 4 Rules. I sent him home with some basic dry practice on those things.
The third trip, he demonstrated acceptable proficiency with those, so we introduced the 4 count draw from a OWB. We shot the TX LTC course of fire.
The fourth trip some time next week will include him demonstrating all of the above. We'll continue to fine tune.
There probably won't be a lesson five with me. I'll continue pushing him to pursue professional training as the opportunities come up.

I think there's something to be said for the well trained guy who's willing to do the unglamorous work of getting newbies ready for a comprehensive two day Combative Pistol / First Responder type class.

Additional resources to shape your potential future as an educator.
@FPF Training is running his excellent class in Phoenix in Feb. I can't recommend it highly enough. It's what a CHL class should be.
Active Self Protection and Citizen's Safety Academy are running some online (Zoom?) classes that are likely worth your while given your target demographic.
Claude Werner has a couple books, particularly Common Mistakes Gun Owners Make.

[DacoRoman]

Is the potential student base big enough to host existing instructors?

Independence Training (https://www.independencetraining.com/), for instance, does all that. Several years ago I attended a SouthNarc ECQC that they hosted in Prescott / Chino Valley area. They regularly co-instruct with Cecil Burch.

AJZ also teaches in the Prescott / Prescott Valley area. I'm sure there are others. I'm not trying to talk you out of instructing, just making sure you are availing yourself of existing resources.

In my very limited experience working with new shooters, I find a lot of benefit to short 1-2 hour, low student count lessons that methodically work a couple specific things. It's a better way to learn a new skill than the typical two day class. It's also a niche that most full time instructors can't afford to work in, or rather most new students can't afford their $100-250/hr rates.

For instance, I'm working a co-worker now who had no previous experience.

The first range trip was for funzies and casual introduction. Then he decided to get serious.
The second trip we worked loading and unloading, introduced basic marksmanship fundamentals and hammered on The 4 Rules. I sent him home with some basic dry practice on those things.
The third trip, he demonstrated acceptable proficiency with those, so we introduced the 4 count draw from a OWB. We shot the TX LTC course of fire.
The fourth trip some time next week will include him demonstrating all of the above. We'll continue to fine tune.
There probably won't be a lesson five with me. I'll continue pushing him to pursue professional training as the opportunities come up.

I think there's something to be said for the well trained guy who's willing to do the unglamorous work of getting newbies ready for a comprehensive two day Combative Pistol / First Responder type class.

Additional resources to shape your potential future as an educator.
@FPF Training is running his excellent class in Phoenix in Feb. I can't recommend it highly enough. It's what a CHL class should be.
Active Self Protection and Citizen's Safety Academy are running some online (Zoom?) classes that are likely worth your while given your target demographic.
Claude Werner has a couple books, particularly Common Mistakes Gun Owners Make.

Im not sure if there would be enough to host a class, but maybe... but thanks for the great suggestions for sure, and many thanks for listing all of these existing resources. I’ll be checking them out! Frankly I’d step into the role of instructor more out of necessity, so being able to refer people to good regional training opportunities will be a handy option.

[ST911]

Buy, read, and follow Dustin Salomon's books "Building Shooters" and "Mentoring Shooters." Within those books, expressly and by default, are roadmaps.

https://www.amazon.com/Building-Shooters-Applying-Neuroscience-Research/dp/0692621784
https://www.amazon.com/Mentoring-Shooters-Building-Firearms-Responsibility/dp/0692890564

Dustin has also appeared on several podcasts if you want a preview of his material and approach.

[DacoRoman]

Buy, read, and follow Dustin Salomon's books "Building Shooters" and "Mentoring Shooters." Within those books, expressly and by default, are roadmaps.

https://www.amazon.com/Building-Shooters-Applying-Neuroscience-Research/dp/0692621784
https://www.amazon.com/Mentoring-Shooters-Building-Firearms-Responsibility/dp/0692890564

Dustin has also appeared on several podcasts if you want a preview of his material and approach.

Excellent, thank you!

[Jeff22]

In my very limited experience working with new shooters, I find a lot of benefit to short 1-2 hour, low student count lessons that methodically work a couple specific things. It's a better way to learn a new skill than the typical two day class. It's also a niche that most full time instructors can't afford to work in, or rather most new students can't afford their $100-250/hr rates.

I think there's something to be said for the well trained guy who's willing to do the unglamorous work of getting newbies ready for a comprehensive two day Combative Pistol / First Responder type class.

[/I].

Absolutely!

[jlw]

Buy, read, and follow Dustin Salomon's books "Building Shooters" and "Mentoring Shooters." Within those books, expressly and by default, are roadmaps.

https://www.amazon.com/Building-Shooters-Applying-Neuroscience-Research/dp/0692621784
https://www.amazon.com/Mentoring-Shooters-Building-Firearms-Responsibility/dp/0692890564

Dustin has also appeared on several podcasts if you want a preview of his material and approach.


Excellent, thank you!


Solomon's approach presumes/necessitates repeated, frequent contact with the students. This works fine for an institutional setting or working with a neighbor or friend, but it isn't feasible as a workable model for one-time students.

[jlw]

The NRA certifications are of little practical value. They do have marketing value in that some states recognize them for carry licenses/permits.

You will probably need an instructor certification to get liability insurance.

I can't speak directly about the USCCA certifications, but based on indirect evidence, I would rate them similarly to the NRA value.

Rangemaster is the tops for actually preparing students to walk about armed. As you already have experience with CSAT, completing their instructor course would also be a consideration.

[DacoRoman]

The NRA certifications are of little practical value. They do have marketing value in that some states recognize them for carry licenses/permits.

You will probably need an instructor certification to get liability insurance.

I can't speak directly about the USCCA certifications, but based on indirect evidence, I would rate them similarly to the NRA value.

Rangemaster is the tops for actually preparing students to walk about armed. As you already have experience with CSAT, completing their instructor course would also be a consideration.

Thanks for your response. Good things to consider.

When I did the CSAT courses I was living in Dallas, so CSAT was about 4 hrs away but yes I would love to do their pistol and carbine instructors courses!

But alas, shit happens when one leasts expects it, as they say, and my plans for taking an instructors course will have to wait until I rehab my right shoulder. I recently had surgery to repair a high grade shoulder separation that I got this early January after going over the handle bars of a ski bike while going down a slope. I hit an ice patch and ooopsies..
So I’ll have 3-4 months most likely to think about what course I’ll end up taking... I wonder how much more expensive ammo and gas will be by that point, yikes!

Thanks again y’all for the great tips.