Spectacular French rescue by helicopter

[LittleLebowski]

The pilot clearly has a hard time walking. GJM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0z9HRC7hlU

[Coyotesfan97]

That’s some flying! I hope he doesn’t have to buy his drinks:cool:

[GJM]

Very impressive flying!

[blues]

Stud!

[TheNewbie]

Wow.

The French have some quite impressive units in both the military and the police.

[blues]

Wow.

The French have some quite impressive units in both the military and the police.

It's not politically correct to discuss their units.

(It's twue, it's twue. ;))

[TheNewbie]

It's not politically correct to discuss their units.

(It's twue, it's twue. ;))


That's why I went with Mexico.

[Hambo]

It's not politically correct to discuss their units.

(It's twue, it's twue. ;))

That pilot certainly does have impressive cojones. :cool:

[Trigger]

I dunno. I watched the Phoenix PD do an impressive rescue off Camelback mountain in an MD520 Notar. In some gusty swirly winds. Before they built the pad about 2/3 of the way up. Stopped on one skid, offloaded a PJ, on loaded a pax in small basket stretcher. I think some of those folks get a lot of time in those birds and get really skilled about how to move them. Ask the 160SOAR about that.

[GJM]

These kind of rescues are either spectacularly successful or they can go really bad. Recently, Phoenix was lifting a woman off with a leg injury, and the litter went cyclic, leading to a lawsuit.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2019/11/27/woman-spinning-helicopter-basket-files-notice-claim-against-phoenix/4319034002/

Experienced mountain pilots know there is substantial risk to these kind of operations, and a risk/reward analysis should be made before undertaking this kind of op.

[John Hearne]

I worked in the Las Vegas area in the late 90's. The air ambulance service we regularly used tended to be staffed by Vietnam Vets. I personally saw a pilot land on a rock that was maybe 6" wider than the distance between the skids at a remote boat crash site. I heard a lot more stories from older officers who had seen flying like shown in that video.

If those guys told you that they were going to fly you through the gates of Hell and bring you back, you'd load up because that shit was going to be spectacular.

[GJM]

Las Vegas has had a long established helicopter program with extensive rescue experience in the terrain around Las Vegas. My buddy was doing a cool toe in with a Bell 407 there that was in the Bell calendar. The 530F was their rescue work horse for many years. Here is one doing a toe in.

65091

[blues]

We had quite a few awesome rotary wing pilots in our Air Unit based down at Homestead AFB. Mostly former Marines. It was a pleasure flying with them on our ops.

[AKDoug]

Coast Guard Pilot Laura Guth.. Alaskan Monarch rescue in 1990. Amazing piloting in 50 knot winds.. She drags the basket under a block of ice at 7:20 in this video to rescue the captain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_wn8_yZ2xs

[Totem Polar]

That’s pretty great.

[Coyotesfan97]

Las Vegas has had a long established helicopter program with extensive rescue experience in the terrain around Las Vegas. My buddy was doing a cool toe in with a Bell 407 there that was in the Bell calendar. The 530F was their rescue work horse for many years. Here is one doing a toe in.

65091

That’s a great shot! We usually trained toe ins at in areas where the skid back of the skid was 6-10 feet off the ground. We trained at a CAP pumping station. One day we did toe ins on the roof which had a fairly tall parapet. It was at least six stories tall. There was a bit of pucker factor moving down the skid. I think everyone did it once and our commander stopped it. He was pretty worried about a fall.

We got off the building getting on the skids while the pilot hovered about a foot off the roof. It’s a coordinated finesse act getting four kitted out SWAT guys stepping on the skid together. We had some great pilots.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I'm confused. A guy with an M1A SOCOM, just like the one he carried in 'Nam when he was a sniper, that shoots 1/4 MOA all day and has never jammed except that one time I happened to be there, specifically told me they were cowards?

I mean he seemed to know what he was talking about...he killed a lot of Cong with his SOCOM, that's for sure.

[Caballoflaco]

Coast Guard Pilot Laura Guth.. Alaskan Monarch rescue in 1990. Amazing piloting in 50 knot winds.. She drags the basket under a block of ice at 7:20 in this video to rescue the captain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_wn8_yZ2xs

Great flying by that pilot too.

Also, frozen oceans with 30 foot seas are way up there on the “Damn Nature you scary” scale.

[TiroFijo]

Who foots the bill for expensive and risky rescue operations like this?
Do you need a special insurance to play in the mountains or you can do it at the expense of the state budget?

[GJM]

Who foots the bill for expensive and risky rescue operations like this?
Do you need a special insurance to play in the mountains or you can do it at the expense of the state budget?

Regardless of whether there is a rescue fee, the taxpayers foot the bill. The helicopters are ungodly expensive to buy, maintain and operate, and maintaining crew proficiency is extremely costly. One hour of recurrent training at Bell for example, is $2,000 to 4,000 an hour.

[TiroFijo]

Regardless of whether there is a rescue fee, the taxpayers foot the bill. The helicopters are ungodly expensive to buy, maintain and operate, and maintaining crew proficiency is extremely costly. One hour of recurrent training at Bell for example, is $2,000 to 4,000 an hour.

I know... every time I see this kind of thing I think playing in high risk environments needs a special insurance to cover the real costs of rescue operations.

[hufnagel]

he needs to donate his testicles to science when he dies; there must be made of some unknown element.

[SeriousStudent]

I worked in the Las Vegas area in the late 90's. The air ambulance service we regularly used tended to be staffed by Vietnam Vets. I personally saw a pilot land on a rock that was maybe 6" wider than the distance between the skids at a remote boat crash site. I heard a lot more stories from older officers who had seen flying like shown in that video.

If those guys told you that they were going to fly you through the gates of Hell and bring you back, you'd load up because that shit was going to be spectacular.

I was working for Dr Red Duke in the early 1980's at Memorial Hermann Life Flight in Houston. Our pilots were all multiple-tour Dustoff pilots.

Dr Duke was an amazing boss and medical director, and taught us a ton of very useful stuff. The pilots were truly skilled, and were famous for saying "The forecast is heavy on trauma, but light on SAM's. Let's go."

[Hambo]

The air ambulance service we regularly used tended to be staffed by Vietnam Vets.

The first air ambulance service in the area I worked had Vietnam vets as well. I remember a semi vs. car wreck early in the morning, and when FD called, the helo pilot said they wouldn't be able to get there because of fog. About 10-15 minutes later we heard a helicopter. He did one pass over the scene and then set it down in the road. The pilot told us he really didn't think he could get there, but he still wanted to try. Somehow he found a route that worked. Later on, they changed the policy so that the pilot made fly/no fly decisions without any knowledge of whether it was an emergency or not. Smarter and safer, but there's nothing like knowing that the pilots will do anything they can to get to you.

[Jason M]

In my MedEvac days we operated a BK117 like was shown in the video. The AC shown seems to be the same series as ours so I'm guessing same engines/fuel consumption. We charged $1250 just to go to the roof and start up. That was in late 80's dollars.

[ST911]

The first air ambulance service in the area I worked had Vietnam vets as well. I remember a semi vs. car wreck early in the morning, and when FD called, the helo pilot said they wouldn't be able to get there because of fog. About 10-15 minutes later we heard a helicopter. He did one pass over the scene and then set it down in the road. The pilot told us he really didn't think he could get there, but he still wanted to try. Somehow he found a route that worked. Later on, they changed the policy so that the pilot made fly/no fly decisions without any knowledge of whether it was an emergency or not. Smarter and safer, but there's nothing like knowing that the pilots will do anything they can to get to you.

That's the norm now. Officially, most policies are to go/ng based on flight safety and operating windows without incident info. It mostly works that way. The decision may be made by a service's detached dispatch center relying on data, possibly non-rated personnel relying on a matrix, not local personnel. (This, applicable to "normal" air ambulance services not necessarily specialized airborne SAR types, which may operate differently.) I think we have some of both types here that could comment further?

[TheRoland]

I know... every time I see this kind of thing I think playing in high risk environments needs a special insurance to cover the real costs of rescue operations.

I think something like this exists, but knowing you'll get rescued drives a lot of outdoor activities that translate to economic activity. I havn't done the math but it's possible that the state covering this sort of thing might be worth it, as long as you get paid at least sometimes.

[TiroFijo]

I think something like this exists, but knowing you'll get rescued drives a lot of outdoor activities that translate to economic activity. I havn't done the math but it's possible that the state covering this sort of thing might be worth it, as long as you get paid at least sometimes.

Risk is always out there, but one thing is normal outdoor activities, quite another high risk ones... rescuing a bunch of guys that went trekking and got trapped into a blizzard is different than rescuing a free climber or somebody that decided that skiing down an ultra steep slope in a inaccessible mountain was a good idea.

If state money is covering rescue and medical treatment for free (or at a nominal fee) then they are sponsoring with other people's money the very small amount of people that enjoy these activities and the also small fraction of businesses that support them.

[Wise_A]

That doesn't seem so bad, I mean it wasn't really an airlift-type emergency, but....oh. Oh. Okay. Yeah, I see where the two million comes in.

[Mark D]

Very impressive flying.

On the subject of rescue... my buddy on a SoCal SAR team once approached Yvon Chouinard (founder and owner of Patagonia, and an old school alpinist and climber) and asked if Patagonia would donate some gear to the SAR team. Yvon refused, saying that SAR creates an artificial safety net for activities that are supposed to be risky.

I can see his point, but I'm always thankful there's resources available if my backcountry excursion goes tits up.

[TOTS]

I dunno. I watched the Phoenix PD do an impressive rescue off Camelback mountain in an MD520 Notar. In some gusty swirly winds. Before they built the pad about 2/3 of the way up. Stopped on one skid, offloaded a PJ, on loaded a pax in small basket stretcher. I think some of those folks get a lot of time in those birds and get really skilled about how to move them. Ask the 160SOAR about that.

I caught myself comparing a little watching the video too. After flying helicopters for a decade and a half and working with both the 160th and Air Force PJs, I found myself saying “I could probably do that“. But I wouldn’t ever want to take anything away from that pilot. He performed on demand when it counted (especially while being video’d) and got the bird, crew, and package back with no loss. Some true “cowboy the fuck up’ flying. Impressive.

[Dog Guy]

In the USA, by far the majority of man hours and cost in SAR is missions for the Average Joe, Jane, or Little Johnny. It's just folks doing what they do like hiking, hunting, camping, overlanding or whatever and something doesn't go as planned. Occasionally it's a face palm decision, but usually it's just someone having a bad day or stacking up a series of small poor decisions. The extreme athletes or true thrill seekers are a very small portion of the victims. Their rescues draw the most attention because they're the most visually spectacular.
I say this as a guy who just started my 42nd year in SAR in the western US. It's come up several times in presentations at the International Technical Rescue Symposium, usually when a politician has been on their high horse about cutting funding for a helicopter or other high end capability. Rescue is usually a corollary duty for aircraft and crew that have a lot of other primary assignments. I can't speak accurately as to how it's done in the European alpine countries. I know they have a different paradigm for how SAR is done, often using only professional mountain guides and dedicated SAR resources but I don't know the details.
The "should we charge for SAR" question would be it's own thread.

[ST911]

In the USA, by far the majority of man hours and cost in SAR is missions for the Average Joe, Jane, or Little Johnny. It's just folks doing what they do like hiking, hunting, camping, overlanding or whatever and something doesn't go as planned. Occasionally it's a face palm decision, but usually it's just someone having a bad day or stacking up a series of small poor decisions. The extreme athletes or true thrill seekers are a very small portion of the victims. Their rescues draw the most attention because they're the most visually spectacular.
I say this as a guy who just started my 42nd year in SAR in the western US. It's come up several times in presentations at the International Technical Rescue Symposium, usually when a politician has been on their high horse about cutting funding for a helicopter or other high end capability. Rescue is usually a corollary duty for aircraft and crew that have a lot of other primary assignments. I can't speak accurately as to how it's done in the European alpine countries. I know they have a different paradigm for how SAR is done, often using only professional mountain guides and dedicated SAR resources but I don't know the details.
The "should we charge for SAR" question would be it's own thread.

This. Like everything else it's the basics. I think you'd agree with this list, Dog Guy...

Out of water.
Cell battery dead.
Too far to walk back.
Not having a couple of essentials, much less 10.
Not knowing the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
Not telling someone where you're going, and/or being overdue at destination or return.
Ground level fall with disabling injury.
Mental illness and suicide.
Other medical emergency.
Not enough mind over matter.
Panic.
Lost kiddos.
Doofus.

[GJM]

In western Canada, mostly BC and the mountains in Alberta, helicopters were very involved in resource development. Not surprisingly, great training evolved there, and Canadian Helicopters in Penticton is world renown for their mountain course. Many elite military operators have cycled through Penticton as part of there development.

https://verticalmag.com/features/a-higher-standard-html/

https://www.canadianhelicopters.com/services/flight-training/topflight/

[Dog Guy]

This. Like everything else it's the basics. I think you'd agree with this list, Dog Guy...

Out of water.
Cell battery dead.
Too far to walk back.
Not having a couple of essentials, much less 10.
Not knowing the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.
Not telling someone where you're going, and/or being overdue at destination or return.
Ground level fall with disabling injury.
Mental illness and suicide.
Other medical emergency.
Not enough mind over matter.
Panic.
Lost kiddos.
Doofus.

Yeah, that's pretty accurate. I'd add overestimating personal capability (especially fitness) or underestimating the terrain difficulty, leading to just getting in over your head. And the number of people who don't know that there's a thing called a weather forecast that you can get FOR FREE any time you want..

[Wise_A]

Yeah, that's pretty accurate. I'd add overestimating personal capability (especially fitness) or underestimating the terrain difficulty, leading to just getting in over your head. And the number of people who don't know that there's a thing called a weather forecast that you can get FOR FREE any time you want..

We had a guy just recently that decided to go for a drive in the snow in one of our smaller state parks. It was a pretty major blizzard--we wound up getting 30". Here's how that went:

(1) I'm gonna be in the car anyway, so why not shorts and a t-shirt?
(2) I bet the park will be prettiest. And I'm sure that the road crews will spend just as much time plowing this empty park as they do the main roads.
(3) Fuck, I'm stuck.
(4) Tow trucks are expensive. I think I will walk out in my shorts and t-shirt and low-cut sneakers without socks.
(5) Fuck, it's cold.
(6) Okay, I do not know where I am. But I'm sure that help and warm cocoa is just around the bend!
(7) "911, where is your emergency?"
(8) Fuck.

Then after rescuing him, the fire department had to carry him out. They tried to take a shortcut and got lost. It was a fun night!

[ST911]

We had a guy just recently that decided to go for a drive in the snow in one of our smaller state parks. It was a pretty major blizzard--we wound up getting 30". Here's how that went:

(1) I'm gonna be in the car anyway, so why not shorts and a t-shirt?
(2) I bet the park will be prettiest. And I'm sure that the road crews will spend just as much time plowing this empty park as they do the main roads.
(3) Fuck, I'm stuck.
(4) Tow trucks are expensive. I think I will walk out in my shorts and t-shirt and low-cut sneakers without socks.
(5) Fuck, it's cold.
(6) Okay, I do not know where I am. But I'm sure that help and warm cocoa is just around the bend!
(7) "911, where is your emergency?"
(8) Fuck.

Then after rescuing him, the fire department had to carry him out. They tried to take a shortcut and got lost. It was a fun night!

One variation has that car somewhere down the road from a "Seasonal Maintenance Only" or "No Winter Maintenance" road sign. And another, "High Clearance Vehicles Only."

[Dog Guy]

Charley Shimanski is a past president of the Mountain Rescue Association and has vast experience in helicopter rescue operations. He collaborated with Ken Phillips, another highly experienced helicopter SAR guy with lots of experience in the National Park Service (Zion, Grand Canyon, and running the NPS SAR training program.) They put together a presentation for the 2017 ITRS about crashes during mountain rescue ops. The slides can be found at http://itrsonline.org/when-angels-fall/ . The slides alone don't do justice to the talk but they're pretty informative and will point the inquisitive towards other sources if you're interested. A key quote: "Rescue mountaineers are more likely to be killed in an aviation-related accident than by ALL other means combined."

Helos are fantastic tools. There are a lot of people alive today who would have died without the capability that helo-based rescue and EMS provides. But when things go bad, they go really bad. Between Mrs. Dog Guy and I, we've been on four SARs with crashed helicopters, plus two training missions with main rotor strikes that didn't crash. Fortunately we've weren't on board any of the crashes. We've learned to turn down flights that aren't necessary. That was one of Ken Phillip's quotes: "I never pass up a chance to turn down a ride in a helicopter." Too often, the helo becomes the easy button when we have other options that could provide an equivalent outcome at lower risk. Question number one should always be "Is the flight necessary?" If it's not necessary, don't launch.

[Trigger]

I caught myself comparing a little watching the video too. After flying helicopters for a decade and a half and working with both the 160th and Air Force PJs, I found myself saying “I could probably do that“. But I wouldn’t ever want to take anything away from that pilot. He performed on demand when it counted (especially while being video’d) and got the bird, crew, and package back with no loss. Some true “cowboy the fuck up’ flying. Impressive.

True. You are correct, that is some impressive flying. I’ll buy him/her a beer anytime.

[Wise_A]

One variation has that car somewhere down the road from a "Seasonal Maintenance Only" or "No Winter Maintenance" road sign. And another, "High Clearance Vehicles Only."

I can tell you a variation on that story. It involves a snowmobile trail, an open gate, a patrol car, about 6' of wintertime accumulation, and just enough of an ice crust support the weight of said patrol car until the deputy gets out to check on a burglary alarm.

[GJM]

Without mentioning names, one of our PF members was in a SAR helicopter crash, but luckily walked away. Let’s just say that helo SAR accident rates don’t compare favorably to airline flying.

I remember when a Chinook crashed on a 14 thousand foot peak in CO. You know how you retrieve that — in many small pieces carried out on donkeys.

[NEPAKevin]

Yeah, that's pretty accurate. I'd add overestimating personal capability (especially fitness) or underestimating the terrain difficulty, leading to just getting in over your head. And the number of people who don't know that there's a thing called a weather forecast that you can get FOR FREE any time you want..

I recall reading something about some states enacting laws fining people who require extreme rescues which needlessly endanger emergency workers.