Cold weather camping, what do I need to know?

[Bio]

A buddy and I are talking about a winter camping trip early 2021. I've done a fair bit of nice weather camping, but nothing cold. We're not going anywhere off the beaten path, just a state park in a camp site most likely, so we'll have a car on hand in case we run into issues. Basically, what I want to know is 1.) What should I know to mitigate the cold and enjoy the trip as much as possible. 2.) Are there any basic prices of equipment not used in regular camping that make a big difference?

We expect temperatures in the 20s-30s.

[Zincwarrior]

To my kids in Illinois, thats shorts weather...:cool:

[MickAK]

A buddy and I are talking about a winter camping trip early 2021. I've done a fair bit of nice weather camping, but nothing cold. We're not going anywhere off the beaten path, just a state park in a camp site most likely, so we'll have a car on hand in case we run into issues. Basically, what I want to know is 1.) What should I know to mitigate the cold and enjoy the trip as much as possible. 2.) Are there any basic prices of equipment not used in regular camping that make a big difference?

We expect temperatures in the 20s-30s.

Bring some sheets of scrap cardboard from big boxes to insulate the ground with. As a bonus, you can burn it in the morning to warm up quick. Check what your sleeping bag is rated for. 20s-30s isn't that bad but a solid 0 degree bag will make it nothing. Are you bringing your own firewood or harvesting on site?

[41magfan]

If you will be sleeping on the ground, make sure your underside is well insulated. The ground (or even the air movement under a cot) will suck the warmth right out of you if this is inadequate. Along those lines, take whatever you need to sleep warm as failing to get good rest can ruin any trip. Take steps to make sure your water, water filters and relevant food items don't freeze and keep your electronics warm, as well. The nice thing about car camping vs backpacking is the flexibility to take all sorts of "contingency" items, since you're not going to be lugging it around on your back.

[whomever]

A buddy and I are talking about a winter camping trip early 2021. I've done a fair bit of nice weather camping, but nothing cold. We're not going anywhere off the beaten path, just a state park in a camp site most likely, so we'll have a car on hand in case we run into issues. Basically, what I want to know is 1.) What should I know to mitigate the cold and enjoy the trip as much as possible. 2.) Are there any basic prices of equipment not used in regular camping that make a big difference?

We expect temperatures in the 20s-30s.

There's the obvious thing of warm clothes and sleeping bag.

Make sure you have enough insulation between you and the ground ... it doesn't matter how warm your bag is because your body weight compresses the insulation between you and the ground, and you don't have enough body heat to heat the 20 degree ground. We usually take as many as three closed cell ('Ensolite' type) pads because they don't spring a leak and deposit you on the ground, but whatever works.

If you are hiking, have some way to keep water warm (thermos, foam wrap for water bottle, ...). When it's 20 degrees you don't want to knock back a big slug of ice cold water, so it's easy to get dehydrated ... plus the bottle lid can freeze shut. If you are sure your bottle doesn't leak you can fill it with hot water after dinner and use it in your bag as a hot water bottle, and it will give you warm water to drink at night, and you won't find it frozen shut in the morning.

Mittens beat the heck out of gloves, both because they are way warmer when you have them on, and because you can get in and out of them quickly to do fine motor control tasks (e,g, tie your shoes). I guess I should rephrase that last: 'make sure your mittens let you get in-n-out fast'.

Some camp stoves (pure butane??) don't work well in cold temps and low altitudes. I think they are uncommon today.

If you are bald, have a warm hat to sleep in.

Long nights ... headlamp.

[mtnbkr]

Most of what I do is winter camping, which in Virginia means temps ranging from below zero to mid 40s (Mostly 20s to 30s though). Most of my camping is now hammock-based.

Clothing:
Layers, especially if you're being active.
Fabrics that capture air (wool, fleece, etc) with an outer layer that blocks wind and/or moisture.

Tent:
If you're buying one, get a 4-season tent. However, a good 3-season tent with a good ground pad and sleeping bag will do in the temps you mention.
Get a quality tent in either case. Check out REI and similar stores.
If the tent is big enough, a Buddy propane heater can make it a more pleasant experience. If you're looking at a backpacking-size tent, a candle lantern can take the edge off. When I did that sort of thing, I'd light the candle a couple hours before I got into the tent.


Bedding:
Get a good sleeping pad. Even if you're in a tent big enough to allow a cot, you need a good insulating layer.
Do you know if you're a cold or hot sleeper? It's not necessarily tied to how hot or cold natured you are during the day. I'm a hot natured person, especially if I'm moving, but I'm a cold sleeper. As a result, I use a -15deg bag when temps get below 40deg.
If you're not backpacking, get a rectangular bag. You'll appreciate the extra space.
A pillow is good for comfort, more than many realize.
Don't sleep fully clothed, but do wear a base layer (ie your long johns) and a stocking cap.
Down is more insulating, but could be a problem when damp.


What are you doing for food, cooking, and general camp kitchen concerns? That's as important as the other items IMO because you'll want hot food and drink when you get up. If you're a coffee drinker, prep your coffee the night before. We use a giant percolator, so the last thing we do before going to bed is to fill it with water and pre-measured coffee so all we have to do is turn on the stove and then go about getting dressed, planning breakfast, etc.

Chris

[vcdgrips]

Note-many chimed in as I was writing. Sorry for the repeats.

Where to begin? I am writing based on camping with BSA and strategies that worked for me and my boys. I have camped down to single digits on 10 inches of snow. I have camped multiple times in the temp ranges you are setting forth. I have hiked Philmont (100+ miles over 10 days with everything on my back, temps freezing with flurries to 80 ish)

1. It is imperative that you change out of your day clothes into something warm and dry when you get into your sleeping bag for the night. I have a set of synthetic long underwear, some set aside merino wool socks and a fleece beanie for that very purpose. NOTHING COTTON here as it gets wet and stays wet.

2. In that vein, my clean,dry synthetic sleep gear and sleeping bag are going to be double bagged so no matter how wet I got before going to bed, my sleep system will be dry.

3. As you are car camping, bring the heaviest sleeping bag you got, for 20 degrees, I would bring my 0 bag as I sleep cold. My 0 bag for car camping is a 5 lb mummy from Walmart. If you do not have or want to buy a 0 degree bag, if you put one bag inside of another, a 30 inside of a 30, and that will get you there as well, particularly with the warm dry sleeping gear outlined above.

4. I bring a pee bottle in the tent these days on cold weather camp outs. Not having to get out of the tent is quite nice. ( 1 qt wide mouth sport drink bottle that looks and feel different for my nalgene water bottles.)

5. As you are car camping, just bring the firewood, fat wood sticks and some fire starters. I make my own fire started with dryer lint and vaseline and store 6-8 of them in a Altoids tin, in a zip lock bag with a small bic.

6. Anything mission critical, one is none and two is one.

7. If your air mattress is not insulated, it is much colder to sleep on that a pile of blankets and/or stacked foam pads

8. Bring a chair or something to sit on around camp/fire etc.

9. Bring a cheap, 3.00-4.00 std bed pillow from walmart/target. I have done it all re pillows: none, using the edge of my pack, an extra puffy jacket stuffed into a bag, a purpose designed "camping" pillow, all in the pursuit of less weight/bulk. I sleep much better on a bigger pillow, you are car camping so bring it. Even when I was not car camping the last couple of seasons, I brought it anyway
as it fit inside of my 75 liter pack with ease and I was never camping more than a couple days in the field or 5 in a permanent scout camp.

10. Pre hydrate the week before you go if you are not a water drinker by nature. Shoot for at least 1/3 to 1/2 your body weight in ozs of water per day. Do not forget to hydrate along the way.

Tell us about the gear you already have and/or what you want to buy anyway and I am sure we can offer more.

[JohnO]

Holiday Inn is your friend. ;)

On a serious note: No cotton clothing! Stay hydrated. Don't underestimate Mother Nature. Extra Socks!

[TGS]

1) Anything below 40* is pretty hard to get any sleep if you don't have some sort of ground insulation. 20-30* outside and you'll likely be near-hypothermic without a sleeping pad due to heat loss from conduction, regardless of your bag rating. You don't need anything crazy expensive expedition quality.....a simple foam roll sleeping mat will do well. If you're using a tent, use a ground sheet as well.

2) Cleanliness can make a substantial difference in your ability to sleep well in cold weather because of how cleanliness plays into sweating. Bring some wet wipes to give yourself a whore-bath prior to point number 3...

3) On that last part, wear clean, long underwear and socks when you go to sleep. Reserve that clean lightweight set specifically for sleeping, wear something else for all other activities. Don't wear something too heavy that will make you sweat. I always chose thin, lightweight long underwear...YMMV. The big idea here is not so much about giving you more insulation, but that the material sleeping bags are made out of will typically trap moisture if you are skin-on-sleeping bag, instead of having an intermediate barrier. That moisture will then stay wet and suck heat away from you 25x faster than if it wasn't there, so even a small patch can make a difference. Ideally, that moisture should migrate to the exterior of the bag where you'll find it frozen when you wake up.

4) If you're doing this with a cheap square sleeping bag and not a mummy bag, wear a hat and wrap your upper body in a fleece shawl. That's a workable option for mildly-cold temperatures if you have a heatsource going nearby and use a sleeping pad....the latter almost being just as, if not more important than the bag itself.

These are my suggestions based on a fair bit of cold weather camping experience. MickAK made a good suggestion about the cardboard scraps, which is a very common thing in snow environments (ice fishing, snowsport spectating, etc).....they can make a tremendous difference even if you're just sitting/standing around. It's insane how much heat you lose to conduction with the ground when sedentary.

[blues]

Good suggestions here, so I won't repeat them and my winter backpacking trips of extended sub-zero temperatures in Yosemite, the White Mountains and Adirondacks are (thankfully) behind me.

Keep hydrated, keep your body fuel level up, stay as dry as possible, and mind the wind and overhead limbs near your site. Hypothermia can occur in less than brutal conditions.

Enjoy yourself.

[41magfan]

Holiday Inn is your friend. ;)

On a serious note: No cotton clothing! Stay hydrated. Don't underestimate Mother Nature. Extra Socks!

Yea, my wife says her idea of "roughing it" is a Holiday Inn with no pool.

[Default.mp3]

Random shit that hasn't been covered yet that might be overkill if you're next to your car:

Flip your water bottles upside down, that way the ice forms at what is technically the bottom of the bottle.
Snow anchors are straight legit when formed correctly.
Put your hardshells under your sleeping pad for that extra bit of performance and to keep the pad from freezing to the tent bottom.
Make sure your tent is ventilated well, to prevent a bunch of frozen condensation.
Wear a balaclava or hat regardless of if you're bald or not, given that the head is a place that you lose so much heat from.
It's not gay if you're spooning strictly for warmth.
Put your feet/lower legs inside your ruck.
Put handwarmers at your toes.
Put hot water bottles in your groin (warms up the body better due to interacting with all the blood there).
Canister stoves are unreliable in the cold unless you have a way to keep the canister warm.
Do not burrow into your sleeping bag, as this introduces moisture from your breath and decreases insulation performance.
Already said before, but the pee bottle is a huge deal.
Bring Biffy bags; trying to dig catholes in the snow ain't fun.

[BobM]

I bought a roll of Reflectix and cut pieces to fit under our sleeping bags in addition to our pads. The USGI MSS sleeping bag system used to be a great value for this type of camping, about everyone in our group ended up with one. I’m not sure what the current pricing a d availability is.

[Bio]

This is awesome, all. Thanks. This is what I've got for normal camping gear:

Kingdom 6 tent from REI with ground tarp
Old mummy sleeping bag (rated for 0, I think)
Various foam sleeping pads
Propane camp stove
Various water tanks/bottles, but not insulated
Cooking supplies

I've also got a parka with a fleece layer and a shell layer, as well as good hats and wool socks, but no cold weather pants, really. Sounds like long underwear, pants, mittens, and insulated water bottles are probably the highest priority things?

[TGS]

Put your feet/lower legs inside your ruck.

Hadn't heard this before. Can you explain?



Canister stoves are unreliable in the cold unless you have a way to keep the canister warm.

Keeping them in the bag overnight always seemed to do the trick, though I guess it would be an issue if you're trying to do extended cooking instead of just having enough useable time to boil a cup of water for a Mountain House pouch.

[MickAK]

This is awesome, all. Thanks. This is what I've got for normal camping gear:

Kingdom 6 tent from REI with ground tarp
Old mummy sleeping bag (rated for 0, I think)
Various foam sleeping pads
Propane camp stove
Various water tanks/bottles, but not insulated
Cooking supplies

I've also got a parka with a fleece layer and a shell layer, as well as good hats and wool socks, but no cold weather pants, really. Sounds like long underwear, pants, mittens, and insulated water bottles are probably the highest priority things?

You might want to bring another tarp for making an awning above the fire/tent entrance in case it's raining/snowing. If you have some nitrile gloves laying around from other tasks they make a good base layer for your hands, followed by some wool glove liners https://www.amazon.com/RefrigiWear-Military-Style-Liners-X-Large/dp/B0761Z2SV3/. I prefer freezer gloves to mittens but everyone has their thing https://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Vinylove-Weather-Insulated-Freezer/dp/B012YEXSGW/

[Default.mp3]

Hadn't heard this before. Can you explain?Just extra bit of insulation, having the ruck around your sleeping bag. Having all your shit in your tent in general is thought to also help insulate the tent, just from all the stuff inside.


Keeping them in the bag overnight always seemed to do the trick, though I guess it would be an issue if you're trying to do extended cooking instead of just having enough useable time to boil a cup of water for a Mountain House pouch.Bigger issue is more lunch or dinner if you've left it in a place for it to get that cold... which hopefully you don't do, but people forget. That, or they don't know and just stick their canister in the snow while they try to cook. But yeah, it isn't too hard to use a canister stove, as you noted, just need to be aware of the limitations and work around them as needed.

[Dog Guy]

If you're sleeping on a cot or hammock, you still need serious insulation under your sleeping bag. The air temp can be lower than the ground temp and you'd be surprised how cold you can get with a little bit of moving air drawing heat away from underneath you.

For stoves: propane canister stoves will still work very well down to colder temps than you're talking about, but butane will fail. Some of the mixed fuels like Snow Peak Giga Power will do fine for a while since they're a mix of propane and isobutane. But, they're burning the propane off faster than the isobutane so it's not like you get linear performance until empty. Pressurized liquid white gas stoves are the gold standard for performance in the cold but they need more futzing than canisters. I don't know how many meals and drinks I prepared on an MSR XGK Expedition without failure.

For car camping at your temps you have a lot of choices for reasonable cost, either propane or white gas. Look for a larger burner that distributes heat around a pan better instead of a small burner focused in the center, and knobs that let you adjust for simmering instead of only "off" or "smelt steel". We've used propane for years when truck camping because the weight doesn't bother us.

If you add a buddy heater to your tent, bring a battery powered CO detector in with you. Get one with an LCD display that actually shows what it's reading. And have a plan to keep the heater away from your nylon floor and walls.

[TGS]

Just extra bit of insulation, having the ruck around your sleeping bag. Having all your shit in your tent in general is thought to also help insulate the tent, just from all the stuff inside

Got it. I almost always went tentless after cub scouts.

[UNM1136]

Little late, but I am an unabashed Patrick Smith fanboi. And while I am not sure I would go floorless tipi and stove from Kifaru, I am none the less getting a floorless tipi and stove before I retire and spent a bunch of preference points in Colorado or Wyoming.

https://kifaru.net/4-season-camping-written-in-1998/


https://kifaru.net/category/patrick-smiths-essays/

While I like the value/features of a competitor's setup, Mr. Smith is a true gentleman who is incredibly knowlegeable and has frequently shared his knowlege freely. Every year or so I pull up those essays to read...

A proper 8 man floorless tipi with a wood burning stove runs 12-15 pounds total, with liners available for extra insulation and to reduce condensation at an additional weight and cost penalty... Generally when looking at those tipis you divide the "man" number by two to have a comfortable shelter you can move relatively freely and have room for gear. The 8 man will squeeze in 8 people, or four comfortably with gear. I use a smaller MegaTarp with a stove and am sold on his concepts and designs for portability and comfort. VERY spendy, though.

pat

[scw2]

I've also got a parka with a fleece layer and a shell layer, as well as good hats and wool socks, but no cold weather pants, really. Sounds like long underwear, pants, mittens, and insulated water bottles are probably the highest priority things?

I think getting pants that will keep the wind from blowing away the warm air around your legs could definitely help with comfort. Having lived in MO previously, I know it can get cold in the winter anyways so those are probably pants you can use in the future anyways for outdoor activities, shoveling, etc. Same with the long underwear.

Specific to TGS' recommendation of having a set of clean clothes to sleep in, if you're wearing boxer briefs or briefs, you could probably just wear them directly over your underwear and keep just that one set clean for sleeping in as TGS recommended, then buy as many as needed for your daytime activities.

[MickAK]

If you add a buddy heater to your tent, bring a battery powered CO detector in with you. Get one with an LCD display that actually shows what it's reading. And have a plan to keep the heater away from your nylon floor and walls.

This is a really good idea even without a buddy heater. You wouldn't be the first person to bail into the car and run the heater to keep warm, and while it's rare it does occasionally kill people.

[mtnbkr]

If you're sleeping on a cot or hammock, you still need serious insulation under your sleeping bag. The air temp can be lower than the ground temp and you'd be surprised how cold you can get with a little bit of moving air drawing heat away from underneath you.

For hammock camping in below freezing temps, an underquilt is a must. I can get by above freezing with a good bag (though it's tedious to get in/out), but below freezing I add an underquilt. I haven't yet gone full retard with a dedicated topquilt yet. I have a good bag and just make do with it.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

If you add a buddy heater to your tent, bring a battery powered CO detector in with you. Get one with an LCD display that actually shows what it's reading. And have a plan to keep the heater away from your nylon floor and walls.

When I was tent camping, I did that. To be honest, virtually no 3-season tent is air-tight enough for that to be an issue. My REI Hobitat has corner vents that go almost down to ground level as well as generous roof vents. We would use that tent with two cots and an old school kerosene heater (with CO monitor). CO build-up was not an issue.

The Buddy Heaters have O2 monitors, which does not preclude CO build-up, but is safer than the kerosene heater we used before. It's all moot though, this is camping now:
First night was in the 20s, the rest were in the 40s:
64781

Believe it or not, the overnight temps in this pic were down around freezing:
64782

Chris

[TGS]

For hammock camping in below freezing temps, an underquilt is a must. I can get by above freezing with a good bag (though it's tedious to get in/out), but below freezing I add an underquilt. I haven't yet gone full retard with a dedicated topquilt yet. I have a good bag and just make do with it.

Chris

Would something like a wool/fleece poncho or a Hill People Gear "Mountain Seraph" work well for this, that way you could double-duty it during the day?

Or is this something that requires a dedicated piece of heavy-duty whatever? I've never done hammock camping, so I'm curious.

[mtnbkr]

Would something like a wool/fleece poncho or a Hill People Gear "Mountain Seraph" work well for this, that way you could double-duty it during the day?

Or is this something that requires a dedicated piece of heavy-duty whatever? I've never done hammock camping, so I'm curious.

To be honest, I don't know. I've heard of folks running the hammock through their sleeping bag, so I suppose your idea would work as long as those items provide enough insulation. Underquilts are very similar to sleeping bags in their loft and construction and work in much the same way, but hang underneath you rather than being sandwiched between your body and the hammock.

I just took a look at the serape. It looks a bit short and may not hang close enough to the hammock to be useful. Even a proper underquilt can fail if it's not close enough to the hammock. A buddy of mine suffered a cold night because the gap between his hammock and underquilt was large enough to catch a breeze. :D

Chris

[TGS]

Underquilts are very similar to sleeping bags in their loft and construction and work in much the same way, but hang underneath you rather than being sandwiched between your body and the hammock.


Ahhh, okay. That way it's got full loft and not compressed. neat.

Similar idea to making a "tent" out of an insulating fabric inside your actual tent or backwoods cabin.

[whomever]

" Pressurized liquid white gas stoves are the gold standard for performance in the cold..."

Heresy!!!!!

This is the gold standard: https://www.trailspace.com/gear/optimus/no.-00/

Harummphhh.

Joking aside, I much prefer kerosene to white gas. One major reason is that stoves all warn 'don't cook inside the tent' (or snow cave). That's good advice, until you are camped at 12000 ft, above treeline, on a barren plain, it's minus 30f, and the wind is averaging 40 MPH. There are those who say to go outside, dig a hole, and squat there while you cook. I dunno. When you are melting snow for all the water you use, you have the stove going 3 or 4 hours a day... That's a lot of time to be setting out in that wind.

But if you do cook inside and the stove has a mishap, even if you don't get burned you won't have a tent or sleeping bag (ever seen down burn?), which is going to be ... awkward in those conditions.

If,for example, a gas stove vents from over-pressurization, the venting vapor can ignite - I've seen it, fortunately not in a tent - and you get a very impressive blowtorch. Kerosene doesn't do that. In fact, the stove above doesn't have a burner control - to make it hotter, you pump more. To make it cooler, you vent vapor about two inches from the burner, and it never lights. Or I have seen gas stoves start leaking from a gasket. The leak ignites ... fireball. The same leak on a kerosene stove means a stinky kerosene mess, but no fireball.

IIRC, kerosene also yields 0.004327% more BTU's per pound, so you you won't spend your two weeks of humping a ginormous winter pack brooding that 'if I had used kerosene, this pack would weigh 1.036 ounces less' :-)


(I don't think they make Optimus 00's any more, alas. The MSR G/K is a bit more finicky, but lighter and better in the wind if you are cooking outside, maybe in fall or spring)

[mtnbkr]

Ahhh, okay. That way it's got full loft and not compressed. neat.

Similar idea to making a "tent" out of an insulating fabric inside your actual tent or backwoods cabin.

Exactly!

Speaking of making a tent inside a tent...
On the trip in the 2nd picture I was trying out the topquilt concept with a quilt that was, in hindsight, far too light (who would've expected sub-freezing temps in September). For the 2nd night, I pulled out the summer-weight bag I brought as a hedge against my A plan failing. But, since I still had the blanket and the summer bag was far too light, I hung the blanket over my ridgeline under the tarp. This created an A-frame blanket tent over my hammock. I then crawled inside my lightweight bag. I was toasty warm the 2nd night. :)

Gotta be willing to innovate out in the woods. :D

One of my other buddies went full retard on the hammock camping thing and has a proper winter-weight top and bottom quilt set. He sleeps well and is able to get in/out of the hammock with minimal fuss, but also spent a fortune (more than $500 for both pieces I think). I'll stick with my -15deg bag and 40deg bottom quilt for now (that combo has been tested down into the teens). :rolleyes:

Chris

[RevolverRob]

I've done quite a bit of high elevation, winter, camping. Most folks have covered the basics.

Bio you mentioned a mummy bag 'maybe rated to 0'. First thing's first - check the bag's rating and check how old the bag is, as well as the conditions of the zippers. A bag that has been stored someplace like the garage, can have degraded fill (if it's polyester). If it is lumpy and not fluffy, it's time to get a new bag.

A bag's rating should be considered the minimum temperature to keep you from go hypothermic, not keep you comfortable. Personally, I like a -15 bag when I'm anywhere where it may be below 15-degrees. If it's below 0, I say fuck it and sleep in the truck. ;)

Concur on base layers and not putting your head in the bag. Also with a well vented tent, because with two folks inside there will be a lot of condensation built up.

If your bag is too long for you (like mine, my bag is made for someone 6' tall, as most bags are, yet I'm 5'7"), stuff extra clothing down at the bottom to fill in the space. Mummy bags work best by reflecting heat back. Bonus, in the morning, your clothes are warm, because they've been in the base of your bag all night keeping your feet warm. Personally, I do not wear socks, but that is because my feet sweat like crazy and I've found each time I've tried to wear socks, I end up kicking them off in the middle of the night.

I looked up the Kingdom 6 Tent, that's a fairly large tent, if you get caught in a storm with any kind of substantial snowfall, you may wake up under a collapsed tent. So, make sure your rainfly is taut and the tent is guyed out firmly. I would first make sure the tent is well pitched and guyed out, then do the rainfly and run extra guylines to those upper loops on the rain fly. Your tent will probably look like the flying spaghetti monster with all the guylines. Remember to use a BRIGHT green or orange guy line. Nothing sucks worse than getting up in the morning pre-coffee, post-snowfall and tripping over a fucking guyline, because it was made from white or black cord, and bam you face plant in the snow.

In terms of clothing, once active, you'll not need, nor want a parka. A softshell, with a base-layer and a t-shirt is all you'll need. Pants wise, just wear something that dries quickly and a base layer underneath. For gloves, personally, I've never liked mittens, I've found layers work best with gloves as well. My current combo is Outdoor Research liners for temps down to ~20 or so (you have pockets!), then Outdoor Research Ice Climbing gloves without liners down to ~0. Then I go with the Ice Climbers + Liners combo for temps below that. I've done down to -25ºF (with windchills of -50ºF) with that combo. I have some big wool mittens and the only time I use them is when I have to shovel the car out, because when I'm done they're soaked and I shake them off and go to liners. Wet gloves, like wet clothes, aren't really good for insulating you.

[mtnbkr]

This is awesome, all. Thanks. This is what I've got for normal camping gear:

Kingdom 6 tent from REI with ground tarp
Old mummy sleeping bag (rated for 0, I think)
Various foam sleeping pads
Propane camp stove
Various water tanks/bottles, but not insulated
Cooking supplies

I've also got a parka with a fleece layer and a shell layer, as well as good hats and wool socks, but no cold weather pants, really. Sounds like long underwear, pants, mittens, and insulated water bottles are probably the highest priority things?

The Kingdom 6 is big enough for at least two people on cots, maybe more. Something to consider if you're car camping. I have a Hobitat, which is a 4-person tent of similar construction. It was plenty large for two adults on cots and a kerosene heater in the middle. Today I'd use a propane Buddy Heater because it's smaller, doesn't smell, and fuel is easier to get (kerosene, except for overpriced small jugs at Lowes and Walmart, is getting hard to find around here).

The water tanks don't need to be insulated unless the temps are below freezing the entire time. What I found was with temps right around freezing at the peak of the day, if the sun was out it would warm the tanks enough to melt the ice. Except one insane trip that was in the negatives overnight, water tanks never froze solid. You'd get thin ice on top and that's about it.

Chris

[RJ]

Paging Lost River Malamute

[Lester Polfus]

There has been some solid advice in this thread. I haven't read every word, so I might have missed it, but I don't think anybody addressed nutrition.

Your caloric needs go up when it's cold. Take plenty of food. I find it useful to eat something fairly high in fat before bed.

It's also important to stay hydrated. People know to drink water when it's hot out, but it's easy to get dehydrated in the cold if you're not paying attention.

As much as I enjoy the wee dram, avoiding alcohol in cold weather out door experiences is best.

[RevolverRob]

It's also important to stay hydrated. People know to drink water when it's hot out, but it's easy to get dehydrated in the cold if you're not paying attention.


A couple of other folks mentioned, but LP put it succinctly here.

Anecdotally, as the person with my field crews who was the designated 'medic' (defacto, since I was the only one with Wilderness First Aid training...:rolleyes:). I've treated more dehydration than hypothermia. In fact, I've never had to treat formally hypothermia, despite frequently being in temperatures well below freezing. Once I had to make someone change their wet socks and dry their boots by a fire, to prevent it. But that was it. By contrast at least five times I've had to administer oral rehydration salts to people and monitor them for dehydration.

By nature though, field crews tend to like to drink. And people OFTEN forget to hydrate while consuming alcohol. Made worse by the cold and feeling like you're not losing water. Dehydration is a real challenge in the cold.

[mtnbkr]

There has been some solid advice in this thread. I haven't read every word, so I might have missed it, but I don't think anybody addressed nutrition.

Your caloric needs go up when it's cold. Take plenty of food. I find it useful to eat something fairly high in fat before bed.


One of the best parts of cold weather camping is that you have an appetite (hot weather kills mine) and you have an excuse to eat well. At our winter camps we eat like kings. The last 3 trips one guy kept bringing these ginormous ribeyes (last time we estimated them at 26oz each based on the net weight of the pack). He'd cook them to perfection over hot coals while we cooked the equally huge potatoes in the fire. Did he bring chives, bacon bits, sour cream, and cheese for the potatoes? Yes he did!

I've cooked corned beef roasts with cabbage, carrots, and potatoes. Others have made insane stews. We always eat well and hearty. :cool:

Breakfasts are usually copious amounts of eggs, bacon, sausage, and black coffee (and Baileys Irish Cream).

Chris

[rd62]

There has been some solid advice in this thread. I haven't read every word, so I might have missed it, but I don't think anybody addressed nutrition.

Your caloric needs go up when it's cold. Take plenty of food. I find it useful to eat something fairly high in fat before bed.

It's also important to stay hydrated. People know to drink water when it's hot out, but it's easy to get dehydrated in the cold if you're not paying attention.

As much as I enjoy the wee dram, avoiding alcohol in cold weather out door experiences is best.

Good call out! I was going to mention the caloric needs too but you beat me to it. You burn a lot just maintaining body temp as the outside temp falls.

[littlejerry]

If the temps drop down to near my quilt/bag rating I'll usually boil a liter of water and fill my nalgene with it right before bed. Toss the bottle down by your feet and it'll be warm when you get up to pee in the middle of the night(and when you come back).

[Lost River]

Paging Lost River Malamute


HEY ALL!

I have been spending a bunch of time in the hills, back and forth at the house for a few days here and there. Been helping some folks put up meat for the winter and trying to get my elderly dad lined up on an elk. Not successful on that one so far. Will head back up tomorrow. He was not feeling too well for the first few days of the hunt and the extreme cold did not help, plus the generator konked out.. :rolleyes:

The topic of cold weather camping is timely. Sunday it was about 10 degrees, but the wind was blowing at about 25 miles an hour, wind chill probably minus 10 ish. Was pretty nasty. Ran into some mule deer that were partially covered with blowing snow and they did not even bother to run. They looked defeated. I would have chuckled but my dad who will be 79 in less than 2 months was looking like a Popsicle himself.

Anyways,I scanned through the thread. Lots of good stuff.

A few added tips.

Mad Bomber hats, like the one I am wearing here with the ear flaps folded up.

https://i.imgur.com/2tpmX8k.jpg

I have ice in my beard, but I am perfectly warm. Mad Bomber hats are G2G.



Wear them to bed with the flaps folded down and snapped, secured under your chin. This will keep you from losing heat through your head even better than a regular beanie, and makes a significant difference. You will find that if it is really cold in the morning, you won't want to take it off.

Use your Beanie/wool watch cap for your nalgene bottle. Put boiling water in your nalgene bottle, then slide it into the beanie. One in the bottom of the bag and one by your femoral.

In winter the metal bottles are good, due to the fact you can stick them next to a flame if they freeze up.



https://i.imgur.com/AXQiqNv.jpg



Few things are better to see than elk blood on your canteen BTW...


https://i.imgur.com/oNeLLcB.jpg:cool:

[randyho]

This thread is PF.com at its best. I've a lot of winter camping experience on Assateague Island (when you won't be killed by vampire mosquitoes) in my pocket and nothing to add.

[littlejerry]

Another note:. If your bag/quilt isn't rated for the conditions, layer. Liners can add 5-10F to a bag or quilt.

When hammock camping in below freezing I'll layer an additional down quilt on top of my normal underquilt. Not perfect but definitely adds warmth.

I've gotten a lot of use out of the ~$50 "outdoor" down quilt I got off Amazon. Wear it like a kilt in the morning around camp, pull it out when hunting, add it as an extra layer when sleeping in cold temps, and it packs down to almost nothing.

[Cookie Monster]

I got like 8,000 miles of backpacking in.

Lots of good info in the thread.

Get a sleeping pad with a high r value - 5 or more or stack two.
The hot water in a Nalgene is awesome
Sleeping bag liners are also awesome
I find big tents are hard to get warm but that is with single digit lows
If you are looking at precip a tarp to cover the tent or cooking area is a luxury

Have a plan for the long night, I find 12 to 14 hours of dark just hard to lay down that long.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Plenty of good advice so I'll just tell you one thing not to do: don't build up a fire so you can sleep in front of it, and then stack a bunch of firewood near it so you can toss logs on the fire at night with one hand from where you are lying, and then split various sizes down to kindling so that if you wake up and the fire's out you can easily rebuild it, and don't shield the kindling stack from the fire by keeping it six or eight feet away putting a wall of larger, more difficult to burn logs between the fire and the kindling.

I did that once, and a large spark from some pitchy lodgepole pine launched over the log wall, ignited the kindling, which burned hot enough to ignite the next largest wood, and then the next, and then the large logs and I work up three feet from a bonfire and my sleeping bag was melting and my foam pad was on fire.

Although, by that point, I was wide awake and quite warm so in that sense they had become superfluous.

[littlejerry]

I got like 8,000 miles of backpacking in.

Lots of good info in the thread.

Get a sleeping pad with a high r value - 5 or more or stack two.
The hot water in a Nalgene is awesome
Sleeping bag liners are also awesome
I find big tents are hard to get warm but that is with single digit lows
If you are looking at precip a tarp to cover the tent or cooking area is a luxury

Have a plan for the long night, I find 12 to 14 hours of dark just hard to lay down that long.

It's really surprising how well it works. It turns a frigid wake-up-every-30min-shivering night into a comfortable sleep.

And again, when you go to pee and climb back in the bag... That's when it's truly awesome.

[Lost River]

I do a lot of cooking/prep beforehand.

Even coffee, especially for hunting, as some things just waste time.

Brewing coffee prior to the trip and putting it in a gallon milk jug is something I pretty much always do. If I am by myself, I will add creamer to it. If I am going with someone else, I will leave it black. Even brewing very concentrated coffee prior to a trip, then just heating it up in the morning and tossing in some water/milk/creamer is quicker than fiddling with coffee and cleaning it all up each morning.

I also do french toast prior to a trip. Except I cut it in strips. Then stick it in tupperware containers.

https://i.imgur.com/jMUZeDU.jpg


In the mornings just heat and serve. I pre-mix the butter and syrup in a container, so you can just dip a stick and eat and go. Again, its a great fast camping/hunting breakfast. Beats the oatmeal.

Eggs can be the same way. Unless it is a casual camping trip and people want them "sunny side up" or whatever, I crack them and stick them in an old coffee creamer container. Just pour and cook scrambled eggs.

Baked potatoes are another one. Pre-cook them, then stick them in a plastic bag. Then re-warm and serve with lots of butter. That one is always a favorite in cold weather, as a hot baked potato really hits the spot.

[VT1032]

Lots of good advice that I came here to say has already been covered. I've done a lot of winter "camping" on the military side over the years including two annual trainings where I spent two weeks each living out in it. The Vermont National Guard has a major hard on for playing in the snow. Layers are your friend. I've seen a lot of new soldiers throw on the big puff suit that we get and then sweat and then freeze. You can get a long way with a thin set of wicking long underwear, a thicker thermal set over those, a thick fleece jacket and windproof layers over all of that. I've worn that combo for long periods of time outside down to -20 or so in relative comfort. Only once have I ever worn the puff suit and it was when I knew I was going to be spending hours directly exposed to high windchill without moving much. wool socks are your friend. cotton kills.

A good insulating layer between you and the ground while sleeping is critical, as is an appropriately rated bag. A big mistake I've seen a lot of new soldiers make is wearing too much while sleeping. They sweat in the clothes and get them all wet. The sleeping bags we get issued radiate body heat back into you, so by wearing the clothes, they actually prevent the bags from working properly and initially soak multiple layers with sweat, but then, because they aren't radiating enough heat, those wet clothes get cold and they freeze. I usually sleep in my base wicking layer and then change that layer for a fresh set in the morning. With a good insulating layer and a quality below 0 rated bag with a gore tex cover over it, you can actually be relatively comfortable. One of the best nights of sleep I ever had was an overnight winter drill weekend in January when it was about -15 or 20 and I had spent the previous week up most of the nights with a sick kid.

For heating up water for cooking, etc, Jetboil's are pretty hard to beat. My platoon sgt conned our supply guy into buying a bunch of them when we had excess company funds and we used the shit out of those things the next time we were in the field. You can make a lot of different stuff with boiling water and even ramen noodles can seem like a 5-star meal when you are freezing. Drink water. You won't feel like you need it. You need it even more than normal.

[zuplex]

I don’t think anyone has yet mentioned batteries and cold weather. Alkaline batteries suffer in truly cold conditions. Sticking with lithium non-rechargeables (like CR123a or Energizer lithium AAs), rechargeable nickel-metal hydrides (like Eneloops), or most lithium-ion rechargeables (like 18650s) is your best bet.

[AKDoug]

Winter camping for me is a snowmobile towing 500# of shit in a sled behind me. A 12x12 Arctic Oven tent and a Kwik Kamp wood stove that keeps it at 40F all night even at -30F. :D

[TGS]

This thread is PF.com at its best. I've a lot of winter camping experience on Assateague Island (when you won't be killed by vampire mosquitoes) in my pocket and nothing to add.

Given so many of us are from the mid-atlantic, talk to us about camping at Assateague.

What would you recommend for a February camping trip, in particular?

[littlejerry]

For coffee I use Starbucks Via. It's instant coffee that tastes like normal coffee. No mess, fast to make. I toss it in an insulated travel mug, add hot water, shake, and boom hot coffee.

Which leads me to another point: bring an insulated travel mug. The metal camp cookware mugs are trash. Bring an insulated mug with a lid that you can then take with you while you hike or hunt. I usually like some warm-ish coffee mid morning, especially if I'm hunting and it's cold.

[Malamute]

Youve had plenty of good info, Ill just add a few observations.

Cotton. Its generally condemned as death incarnate in winter. Ive worn cotton fishnet long johns tops and bottoms a fair bit, then went to Duofold cotton/wool blend long johns under deerskin pants and Carhartts pants, and heavy wool shirts. I hardly ever died. I was mainly in very dry areas, which may have a bearing, I also made fires to dry out when practical, but also have done a lot of cold camping (no fire).

I had a cheap down bag for intermediate temps and a pretty good Class V Expedition outfitters down bag from the 70s that has been stellar in twmps to 30 below with no heat. Adding anything over the cheap bag, from a GI poncho liner to cheap fleece blanket to wool blanket added 10 or more degrees colder capabilities easily. Good padding/insulation underneath has been covered previously. A largish dog also adds a significant wamth to every sleeping bag ive used. Id open the bag to about my knees, the dog lays right against you with their feet sticking out, you cover them, everybody is toasty warm and happy. Even Malamutes like sleeping warm like this when its zero outside.

Ive never peed in my sleeping bag in a bottle. When sleeping under the stars Id just get up, stand on the edge of the tarp, pee, get back in the bag, you warm back up in about a minute, and Id generally fall back asleep almost instantly.

Totally against all recommendations, I wore my damp felt pac boot liners (Sorrels) to bed and they dried on my feet in the bag overnight. Id have a heavy frost on the bottom of the bag in the morning, but also dry liners for the next day. The frost brushed off for the most part. If I could dry the bag well during the day by fire or sun, it helped over longer time out in the hills, but I never had cold feet or any other problems when doing this in my area (mainly flagstaff). If cold camping, its hard to dry boot liners, this worked for me, i did it for years regularly.

I spent around 5 or 6 years living off the back of my bike, out of the back of my truck, and in a tipi off and on a couple years of that time, I averaged staying in a real house about 2 months/year during that time. I didnt do some the things generally recommended, and Im not saying they arent good ideas, but I got by fairly well. It may have been youth and enthusiasm for the lifestyle, but I had an absolute blast when doing it and didnt have any big issues with my practices. Dry out if you get damp or wet, use good clothes when available, if you dont have all the latest and best, go anyway.

I often slept with my winchester carbine against my body depending on the area and situation, it kept it warm and instantly ready (chamber empty), and nobody else could lay hands on it. It condensated some but dried off by itself. Yes, theyd sometimes get small spots of rust stains now and then, but it never bothered me that much, just watch the bore. ARs are sucktastic to sleep with compared to Winchesters, lots of uncomfortable stuff sticking out in different directions. With the Winchesters I put the butt stock between my legs and sight side of the barrel against my body and it didnt get too uncomfortable after you adjust to it being there. You can turn over with it and never think about it after a while. Revolvers are much preferred for sleeping with over 1911s. I awoke many times with 1911s cocked and unlocked and sometimes turned around and pointed my way. I stopped carrying them for the most part, this was one factor in that. I never had any alarming incidents sleeping with a DA or SA revolver, sometimes in my hand, such as in good grizzly country out under the stars. I also wouldnt sleep with a glock the same way I would with a revolver.

Like was mentioned above, a good tent and small woodstove is pretty cushy, Ive used a 9x12 wall tent with Sims sheet metal woodstove some, but mostly in fixed camp the tipi with open fire inside was pretty nice, and shirtsleeves comfortable when zero outside.

64815

[SCCY Marshal]

Some camp stoves (pure butane??) don't work well in cold temps and low altitudes. I think they are uncommon today.

Unless you keep the canister close to your body under your jackets, even the current fuel mix sucks. People undertake any number of workarounds for this but I'm still the curmudgeon who likes his white gas stove. The cold weather process for that prettey much just involves letting the burner piss on the whole stove and setting it alight to warm the generator enough to keep humming. Spare fuel can be stored cold.

If you're made of money, MSR's current multifuel stoves than can run isobutane or various liquid fuels are neat, reliable, and give the most options possible.

If isobutane is used, remember to also sleep with it in your bag. Trying to hand-warm a canister at the crack of dawn is no fun.

[whomever]

Heh. I remember a winter trip in Colorado with the very first of the butane canister stoves, in the early 1980's. The canister had a little rubber plug like you use to inflate a football or basketball, and the stove had a prong like a football inflator. The people I was with dutifully kept the canister warm, and it worked fine when cooking breakfast on day 1, but when they pulled it apart the rubber seal was too cold to work and the canister emptied itself. Fortunately I had the trusty Svea. One of the people on that trip vowed to never go winter camping again ... when she went to unroll her ensolite, it cracked into pieces. Not a good start to the night when snow camping. And not that cold, it must have been really old ensolite.

Anyway, I don't remember having huge problems with out current 'summer' stove, a jetboil, in coldish weather. In really cold, like zero to in the minus 40's we use kerosene, but we have used the jetboil below freezing for sure. I haven't really paid attention to how cold precisely. Note that altitude affects the boiling point of propane and the varieties of butane just like it does for water, so a stove that doesn't work at XX degrees at sea level might be fine at the same temp in the Colorado Rockies. Himalayan types use canister stoves at really low temps but high altitudes.

There are other disadvantages of canister stoves in cold weather, one being that when your drinking water all comes from melted snow you use a lot of fuel; on a ten day trip you'd be humping a lot of empty canisters.

FWIW, here's a writeup on the different canister fuels:

https://www.msrgear.com/blog/ins-outs-canister-fuels/

[Cypher]

I work outside at night. Last winter I didn't need a jacket till it got down to -12 wearing these.


https://youtu.be/SIhI-MBicTs


https://youtu.be/Liwvr4tMJs4

I'm sure the PF Cognicenti will offer better options but I got the entire set (4Pcs) for 20 bucks at the local surplus store. I'd also recommend more Underwear/socks than you think you'll need especially if you're car camping. A clean under layer will keep you much warmer

I also winter camp in the mountains and I've found a fleece sleeping bag liner adds 15 degrees to the rating on my sleeping bag. I also use a self inflating sleeping pad.

[UNM1136]

I work outside at night. Last winter I didn't need a jacket till it got down to -12 wearing these.


https://youtu.be/SIhI-MBicTs


https://youtu.be/Liwvr4tMJs4

I'm sure the PF Cognicenti will offer better options but I got the entire set (4Pcs) for 20 bucks at the local surplus store. I'd also recommend more Underwear/socks than you think you'll need especially if you're car camping. A clean under layer will keep you much warmer

I also winter camp in the mountains and I've found a fleece sleeping bag liner adds 15 degrees to the rating on my sleeping bag. I also use a self inflating sleeping pad.

Nah, the PCS stuff is solid. I like merino for the anti-microbal factor, where I can bow hunt in the same pair of boxerbriefs for a solid 10 days and the wife thought my chones were only 3 days worn. (Won't discuss how she smelled them, because the Settlement is pending...). PCS stuff is such a valid choice, I bought several pieces for my daughter and like it better than my ECWS II vintage stuff. Much better.

Nice to see you back here, Brother.

pat

[randyho]

Given so many of us are from the mid-atlantic, talk to us about camping at Assateague.

What would you recommend for a February camping trip, in particular?

That is one of my favorite places in the winter. I haven't been for years and probably need to fix that with a launch from Wallops as an excuse. There were weekends where the only people I saw were park rangers rolling up and down the beach with skinny-tired suburbans. Grey skies, angry surf, gulls, egrets, a few herons, the occasional unpredictable horse, and zero mosquitoes. Bliss.

This was car camping and I rolled heavy. I was also driving fwd imports at the time so the state park, which had more pavement to the camp sites, was the better choice between that and the national park. I picked sites with vegetation as a wind break was welcome.

I had a 3 season, 3 person tent at the time with a cot due to me being too dumb to think of advanced rake technology to flatten things out prior to setting up (beaches are lumpy). The entire floor was covered with 2 layers of wool army surplus blankets. With the cot, self-inflater, and sleeping bag, I was comfy.

Weird that pre-made coffee was mentioned earlier. I did same. Had a small table and a msr white gas burner. Steak and eggs was my goto.

The showers have been completely redone since last use, fortunately. At one point, they had shutter doors set up for someone with a 34" inseam. I do not have one of those so it was show time for me and many others. When there were crowds, applause was common.

The national park, down the road, has better trails and access for anyone with 4wd. I've stayed there a bunch of times as well.

I am not a fan of nearby ocean city. But, things worth seeing nearby include the ocean city life saving station museum (https://ococean.com/location/oc-life-saving-station-museum), the air mobility museum, (https://amcmuseum.org/) with stops at Matt's Fish Camp (http://www.mattsfishcampbethany.com/) to and from. Further south, Wallops Island Visitor's Center (https://www.nasa.gov/content/nasa-wallops-visitor-center-2) is ideal if you want to get your NASA on.

Much of the same goes for Cape Henlopen in DE. The bunkers there are impressive.

[M1Garand]

Nothing more refreshing then returning to camp from the wood line with your TP at 40 below :cool: Day 1 my chair was scoffed on, later it was I should have one. Camped on a frozen creek he used small stuff sacks filled with snow for anchors. I used ice screws, both tents are the Arctic Oven Pipeline model. Everything else is manageable if you can sleep warm. Good ground pad is required, I have a folding cot that is 6" high when set up.