Value of timers debate (sidebar conversations moved to new thread)

[HCM]

***SIDE BAR CONVERSATIONS CULLED FROM EXISTING THREADS INTO THEIR OWN - MODERATOR***




Which is a shame. The .40 is a good cartridge. When I shoot full power duty loads in both calibers (124 HST vs 165 HST) I notice a difference, but not anything appreciable for me.

What does the timer say?

[Hot Cereal]

What does the timer say?

I don’t use timers. If I were to use a timer the difference would be negligible, in fact one of the fastest guns I can shoot is a Glock 23. I’m with Clint Smith on timers for training. Shoot good before you shoot fast. You’re going to shoot fast when there’s shit in your shorts.

[HCM]

I don’t use timers. If I were to use a timer the difference would be negligible, in fact one of the fastest guns I can shoot is a Glock 23. I’m with Clint Smith on timers for training. Shoot good before you shoot fast. You’re going to shoot fast when there’s shit in your shorts.

Timers, like targets, don't lie.

You either have quantifiable data, or you don't. As PF's late founder Toff G. said so well, feelings lie.

https://pistol-training.com/archives/5108

[Hot Cereal]

Timers, like targets, don't lie.

You either have quantifiable data, or you don't. As PF's late founder Toff G. said so well, feelings lie.

https://pistol-training.com/archives/5108

I’m not getting worked up over it. If I have to use a firearm in a social environment it won’t be on a known course of fire with static targets. Shoot good before anything else.

[DaBigBR]

I respect where Clint is coming from on timers, BUT...a timer can definitely give you information on performance improvement, particularly when you're working on component skills like draws, reloads, and transitions. Part of shooting "good" is shooting efficiently and it's hard to judge efficiency without measuring time.

[BehindBlueI's]

Stick with shooting for accuracy. All these kommandos that have Instagram or YouTube accounts with lots of followers, those guys are no doubt shooting with blazing speed and accuracy, but they’re doing it on a known course of fire with static targets that don’t move or shoot back.

I don't have instagram or youtube. I'm just a guy who's investigated a metric shot ton of these and been involved in a "non static shooting back target" shooting.

You definitely need a blend of speed and accuracy. Both have diminishing returns, and I don't care about a few tenths in splits but it's disingenuous to imply that speed doesn't matter at all. You aren't going to suddenly get better when the targets aren't static and are shooting back so it behooves you to be even better in those then you think you need to be.


I get you're anti-timer. That's fine. Without a timer you can't really evaluate different techniques. When you say things like "I shot this duty round and that duty round and didn't notice a difference" it's of little value since there's no data. Like taking Shrek's class and seeing what you're doing in real slow motion video vs what your brain thinks you're doing, objective feedback makes you better then going by feels will.

[lwt16]

After years of refusing to purchase a dedicated shot timer, I finally caved and bought one. I consider it one of the best purchases I ever made related to my training.

1. ammo by the case
2. B8 repair centers
3. Competition Electronics Pocket Pro original

To the OP......

I get that you can't do live draws at most ranges due to policies and liability. I will say that in my recent experience, dry draw practice as well as dry fire practice has paid HUGE dividends for me. My living room has been my main spot to train since ammo got so scarce. It didn't come overnight, but a dedicated training regimen has cut my times from the concealed draw as well as from the duty holster a bunch. I remain shocked at how effective focusing on efficiency is in relation to getting the gun into action. Even when I "blow" a draw, I'm still much much faster than I was a year ago.

I helped with a new shooter class the other day and performed a dry draw at speed utilizing a weighted blue gun. While not trying to impress anyone, even the other instructor was sort of shocked at how fast I can go now. At work, I've had to draw on suspects and the other cops were also remarking on how fast I was.

Split times, however, I would like to slow those down some and shoot at "assessment speed" as Daggaboy refers to it. I feel that is important at this stage of the game in LE. I find that to get the hits on drills....especially at 15 and 25 yards.....my splits aren't as fast as they used to be. A balance of speed and accuracy is what I seek.

Real gunfights happen real fast. As long as the accuracy is there, fast as possible is inherently a good thing in a real encounter.

Regards.

[Zincwarrior]

After years of refusing to purchase a dedicated shot timer, I finally caved and bought one. I consider it one of the best purchases I ever made related to my training.

1. ammo by the case
2. B8 repair centers
3. Competition Electronics Pocket Pro original

To the OP......

I get that you can't do live draws at most ranges due to policies and liability. I will say that in my recent experience, dry draw practice as well as dry fire practice has paid HUGE dividends for me. My living room has been my main spot to train since ammo got so scarce. It didn't come overnight, but a dedicated training regimen has cut my times from the concealed draw as well as from the duty holster a bunch. I remain shocked at how effective focusing on efficiency is in relation to getting the gun into action. Even when I "blow" a draw, I'm still much much faster than I was a year ago.

I helped with a new shooter class the other day and performed a dry draw at speed utilizing a weighted blue gun. While not trying to impress anyone, even the other instructor was sort of shocked at how fast I can go now. At work, I've had to draw on suspects and the other cops were also remarking on how fast I was.

Split times, however, I would like to slow those down some and shoot at "assessment speed" as Daggaboy refers to it. I feel that is important at this stage of the game in LE. I find that to get the hits on drills....especially at 15 and 25 yards.....my splits aren't as fast as they used to be. A balance of speed and accuracy is what I seek.

Real gunfights happen real fast. As long as the accuracy is there, fast as possible is inherently a good thing in a real encounter.

Regards.

What you can do is get the timing of your draw up to a ready position in dry fire. Then in box range fire do the splits and other timing tests from that ready position. Ad A + B and violin! a crude time.

[lwt16]

What you can do is get the timing of your draw up to a ready position in dry fire. Then in box range fire do the splits and other timing tests from that ready position. Ad A + B and violin! a crude time.

Sort of what I am doing to speed up reloads too.

[HCM]

Do Gen 1-4 .40 S&W Glocks fit into Gen 5 9mm holsters? I’ve got a lot of .40 to burn through and nothing to burn it up with anymore...figure I’ll buy a used Gen whatever Glock shoot up all the ammo and sell it. Also, one of the main benifits to shooting with a timer in a training situation is the random start function not necessarily the timing function.

Gen 1-4 Glocks fit in Gen 5 9mm holsters.

There are many benefits to a timer. Random start is one, using progressive par times to increase your speed is another.

And of course having real data to track progress (or lack there of).

Humans suck at measuring time in small increments and many times the fastest performance “feels” slow, while runs that “feel” fast often aren’t.

[HCM]

I respect where Clint is coming from on timers, BUT...a timer can definitely give you information on performance improvement, particularly when you're working on component skills like draws, reloads, and transitions. Part of shooting "good" is shooting efficiently and it's hard to judge efficiency without measuring time.

Agreed.

Even those old school types which eschew timers used to regularly conduct man on man competitions in class to push speed- which is nothing but a random par time on a meat timer.

[WobblyPossum]

I’m not getting worked up over it. If I have to use a firearm in a social environment it won’t be on a known course of fire with static targets. Shoot good before anything else.

How do you know if you “shoot good” without data on how long it takes you to complete certain shooting tasks? You need two things to track progress accurately: targets, so you can see where you hit when your shoot, and a way to measure your speed so you know how long it takes you to get those hits.

[Casual Friday]

I don’t use timers. If I were to use a timer the difference would be negligible, in fact one of the fastest guns I can shoot is a Glock 23. I’m with Clint Smith on timers for training. Shoot good before you shoot fast. You’re going to shoot fast when there’s shit in your shorts.

Without a timer, how do you know the G23 is one of the fastest guns for you to shoot?

[Hot Cereal]

How do you know if you “shoot good” without data on how long it takes you to complete certain shooting tasks? You need two things to track progress accurately: targets, so you can see where you hit when your shoot, and a way to measure your speed so you know how long it takes you to get those hits. I use targets just like everyone else. In fact, I prefer paper to steel purely because steel can hide poor fundamentals with marginal hits. I complete shooting tasks quickly and efficiently, something I don't need a timer to tell me. I use video to document my training sessions. I review the video, break it down, and find things I did that I can do better and then I practice those things dry. Then, next training session I incorporate those changes, slowly at first and then I always finish with a course of fire that includes those changes, running, calisthenics, things to elevate heart rate, etc. I force myself to shoot while under physical exertion and even incorporate mental tasks to force me to think under stress and make proper decisions. I do this the best I can by myself because I am only one man.

I am not going to get bogged down on tenths of a second. Brainpower, tactics, accuracy are far more important than speed. If I am in a situation where my life depends on tenths of a second difference in a reload or shot split 1- I am probably using terrible tactics; 2- The Lord has decided to call me home. Review video footage of actual incidents and you will see exactly how unimportant being uber blazing fast is. I'm not saying you can shoot super slow, but brainpower, tactics and accuracy are more important. I can have the fastest shot split, fastest reload, etc. even make all my shots, but if the other guy put holes in me then those things really didn't matter.

One thing I notice about people that shoot with timers a lot, they have a tendency to become obsessed with the time and start training for the timer and not for the tactics. Draw while moving to cover and putting one or two rounds on target is far better than standing put, drawing and sending 5 rounds in blazing fast speed. You might get them, but action always beats reaction and they probably got you too. Brainpower, tactics, accuracy. If you're doing something too slowly you won't need a timer to tell you that- it will be blatantly obvious.


Without a timer, how do you know the G23 is one of the fastest guns for you to shoot?
The rhythm of the gun. I can tell based on how the gun recoils and settles back on target. I don't really know how to describe it. I definitely shoot a Glock 17 slightly faster, but I have very good rhythm with my M&P45 and Beretta APX. I am required to carry a Glock 21. Despite what people say, I don't love it. The rhythm is weird to me. Something with the way the sights realign on target. I think all Glocks are "snappy" but the 9mm guns just have less kinetic recoil energy so you can go faster and the .40 guns have faster slide velocity so if you stay on top of the gun you can drive it down and back on target quickly. I guess I find the big 21 to just lumber in the rhythm. We did a timed drill at 25 yards where you start with your back to the target, on signal turn, draw (from a level 3) and hit a (roughly) 11x14 inch steel target. It was a competition within our dept and I won with a time of like 1.21 seconds or something like that, I can't remember exactly. That's probably slow for all the pistoleros on here, but it was blazing fast compared to the 99% of the people I work with.

Like I said above, I am not getting myself bogged down in tenths of a second. Being too slow is blatantly obvious. In real life there is no "Load, make ready, stand by, beeep!" I view them as theatrics more than anything. Now, if you're training for gun games, they're ultra important.

ETA: If you have a finite amount of money to spend on training gear I'd buy a GoPro or a similar type of camera before I bought a timer. I think video is so much more important and such a better training tool. Then, I'd buy more ammo before I bought a timer.

[Hot Cereal]

I just... hate missing. I like to see tight groups and ragged holes. I guess that always seemed more useful than hitting targets AFAP. But hey--it's all part of the equation.

And I agree you with on the 3rd gens. They'd be expensive and boutique-y, but I think people would buy them. Especially with modern features like G10 grips and melonite finishes, etc. Something like a "4th gen."

I'd love to see a new version of the 69XX or even kind of a retro-modern model 39. That would be very cool.


I don't have instagram or youtube. I'm just a guy who's investigated a metric shot ton of these and been involved in a "non static shooting back target" shooting.

You definitely need a blend of speed and accuracy. Both have diminishing returns, and I don't care about a few tenths in splits but it's disingenuous to imply that speed doesn't matter at all. You aren't going to suddenly get better when the targets aren't static and are shooting back so it behooves you to be even better in those then you think you need to be.


I get you're anti-timer. That's fine. Without a timer you can't really evaluate different techniques. When you say things like "I shot this duty round and that duty round and didn't notice a difference" it's of little value since there's no data. Like taking Shrek's class and seeing what you're doing in real slow motion video vs what your brain thinks you're doing, objective feedback makes you better then going by feels will. Read my post in the Gen 5 .40 thread. You'll see that we're basically saying the same thing. I'm not saying you can be slow, but being too slow is blatantly obvious and you don't need a timer for that.


Just curious, have you ever shot a USPSA match? Yes I have. I have done my share of participating in gun games. They are fun and I hope to shoot them more frequently as my schedule and current events allows. I've never had a consistent enough schedule or been able to juggle all the kids to be able to do it regularly. Normally I'm only able to get to the range on random days.

[BigT]

I use targets just like everyone else. In fact, I prefer paper to steel purely because steel can hide poor fundamentals with marginal hits. I complete shooting tasks quickly and efficiently, something I don't need a timer to tell me. I use video to document my training sessions. I review the video, break it down, and find things I did that I can do better and then I practice those things dry. Then, next training session I incorporate those changes, slowly at first and then I always finish with a course of fire that includes those changes, running, calisthenics, things to elevate heart rate, etc. I force myself to shoot while under physical exertion and even incorporate mental tasks to force me to think under stress and make proper decisions. I do this the best I can by myself because I am only one man.

I am not going to get bogged down on tenths of a second. Brainpower, tactics, accuracy are far more important than speed. If I am in a situation where my life depends on tenths of a second difference in a reload or shot split 1- I am probably using terrible tactics; 2- The Lord has decided to call me home. Review video footage of actual incidents and you will see exactly how unimportant being uber blazing fast is. I'm not saying you can shoot super slow, but brainpower, tactics and accuracy are more important. I can have the fastest shot split, fastest reload, etc. even make all my shots, but if the other guy put holes in me then those things really didn't matter.

One thing I notice about people that shoot with timers a lot, they have a tendency to become obsessed with the time and start training for the timer and not for the tactics. Draw while moving to cover and putting one or two rounds on target is far better than standing put, drawing and sending 5 rounds in blazing fast speed. You might get them, but action always beats reaction and they probably got you too. Brainpower, tactics, accuracy. If you're doing something too slowly you won't need a timer to tell you that- it will be blatantly obvious.


The rhythm of the gun. I can tell based on how the gun recoils and settles back on target. I don't really know how to describe it. I definitely shoot a Glock 17 slightly faster, but I have very good rhythm with my M&P45 and Beretta APX. I am required to carry a Glock 21. Despite what people say, I don't love it. The rhythm is weird to me. Something with the way the sights realign on target. I think all Glocks are "snappy" but the 9mm guns just have less kinetic recoil energy so you can go faster and the .40 guns have faster slide velocity so if you stay on top of the gun you can drive it down and back on target quickly. I guess I find the big 21 to just lumber in the rhythm. We did a timed drill at 25 yards where you start with your back to the target, on signal turn, draw (from a level 3) and hit a (roughly) 11x14 inch steel target. It was a competition within our dept and I won with a time of like 1.21 seconds or something like that, I can't remember exactly. That's probably slow for all the pistoleros on here, but it was blazing fast compared to the 99% of the people I work with.

Like I said above, I am not getting myself bogged down in tenths of a second. Being too slow is blatantly obvious. In real life there is no "Load, make ready, stand by, beeep!" I view them as theatrics more than anything. Now, if you're training for gun games, they're ultra important.

ETA: If you have a finite amount of money to spend on training gear I'd buy a GoPro or a similar type of camera before I bought a timer. I think video is so much more important and such a better training tool. Then, I'd buy more ammo before I bought a timer.


So to clarify, you don't know if its faster or slower and by how much. Its feels fast, which, were you to try a timer, often mean absolutely nothing.


For the record timers measure in increments bigger than tenths too


In my experience in real life you want to do thing pretty quickly, but you don't get an opportunity to learn how at the time...

[GJM]

Considering Jeff Cooper’s DVC or “Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas” (accuracy, power, speed), how do you assess the speed part without a timer?

[Hot Cereal]

So to clarify, you don't know if its faster or slower and by how much. Its feels fast, which, were you to try a timer, often mean absolutely nothing.


For the record timers measure in increments bigger than tenths too


In my experience in real life you want to do thing pretty quickly, but you don't get an opportunity to learn how at the time...

I guess I don't care. To me it's common sense. If I shoot too slow, it's obvious. If I'm going fast enough to determine performance differences by increments smaller than tenths of a second I don't think that matters much in the world outside competitions. Like I said- brainpower, tactics, accuracy.

Really, some of this stuff is subjective and a mind game. If I think or feel that gun X is faster or better for me than gun Y, and the difference between the two is measured in less than tenths or even tenths of a second in favor of gun Y, the subjective confidence that gun X provides me outweighs the slight performance increase that gun Y provides. Now, to your point, perhaps if quantitative data is provided that proves gun Y to be "better" maybe that would influence my confidence decision making, but maybe not. Look at the NYSP decision to transition to .45 GAP years ago, after the Trooper Sperr murder. Today they issue Glock 21 Gen 4 pistols in place of the GAP, but they chose to transition from a 17+1 9mm to a 10+1 .45 for large part, because they viewed the .45 GAP as "more powerful", even though the .45 GAP probably would have produced similar ballistic results in that shooting. The bigger bullet makes people feel more confident. Sometimes that is worth more than raw data.

[GJM]

Leaving aside competition, a timer can provide brutally honest feedback in an individual practice session while providing you data to benchmark your own performance over time.

[Hot Cereal]

Considering Jeff Cooper’s DVC or “Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas” (accuracy, power, speed), how do you assess the speed part without a timer?

Jeff Cooper was also a big proponent of the Colt 1911, 45ACP, and worked on the 10mm. One could ask the same question of power- how does one measure power? Kinetic energy? Power factor? Taylor knockout? We can make the argument that 10mm, .45, .357, .40, are more powerful than 9mm, but then we follow that up with jello testing and comparative analysis that (in my opinion) is a lot of confirmation bias to provide whatever result we want. We're all shooting 9mm now and arguing over tenths or less than tenths of a second differences in performance.

Same thing for accuracy. Ok, you can shoot a static target and score X points. Ok, you can shoot that static target and score X points while you're moving. Ok, you can shoot that moving target and score X points while you're moving. Now, can you shoot that unpredictable moving target that is also shooting at you and score X points? See where I'm going with this? All of this is subjective.

Doing generally static shit on a range and obsessing over the times is worthless once you enter into the FoF arena and have to out-smart, out-tactic, and out-shoot your opponent. Last year we did FoF scenarios, one involving two occupants of a vehicle on a traffic stop. Both were armed with concealed sim guns and the passenger had a warrant. They were tasked with engaging the officer when they felt they had a tactical advantage (ambush) on the officer. Back-up was not available (we're in an urban environment, someone is able to come, I thought this was stupid but it was part of the drill). Everyone got into a gunfight. I didn't. I used sound tactics, cover, situational awareness, and again, sound tactics to avoid a gun fight. I am not tooting my own horn. The vast majority of shootings and fights start due to poor tactics. Speed measured in tenths of a second will not save you from poor tactics. I am currently out on injury and had a shoulder surgery because I didn't execute the best tactics. I could have done it slightly differently. Maybe it was the PCP in the guy, but I know I could have had better tactics.

[BehindBlueI's]

Read my post in the Gen 5 .40 thread. You'll see that we're basically saying the same thing. I'm not saying you can be slow, but being too slow is blatantly obvious and you don't need a timer for that.

I think on the bigger picture we're largely in agreement. I don't think we are on the value of timers to get you there. You use video to improve performance. The point is, presumably, objective feedback and to evaluate what works and what doesn't. The exact same thing applies to timers. If you get caught up in hundredths of a second difference is a different question. I don't and use a timer, especially in dry fire. But even if you are obsessing over the most minute of gains...you're getting better so how is that a bad thing? If watching numbers get better motivates you to practice more and get better why would anyone have an issue with that?

Yes tactics matter more. As you yourself point out, that doesn't always happen. Especially for armed civilians who may not have the luxury of a preemptive draw and must do a draw under pressure in a brief opening of a bad guy being distracted. However that whole conversation is just setting up a false dichotomy, as though you can't have both sound tactics and increase your fundamental proficiency with the weapon itself. Why not both? I will also disagree it's blatantly obvious if you're too slow. Not until hindsight anyway, if you get that opportunity.

[Casual Friday]

The rhythm of the gun. I can tell based on how the gun recoils and settles back on target. I don't really know how to describe it. I definitely shoot a Glock 17 slightly faster, but I have very good rhythm with my M&P45 and Beretta APX. I am required to carry a Glock 21. Despite what people say, I don't love it. The rhythm is weird to me. Something with the way the sights realign on target. I think all Glocks are "snappy" but the 9mm guns just have less kinetic recoil energy so you can go faster and the .40 guns have faster slide velocity so if you stay on top of the gun you can drive it down and back on target quickly. I guess I find the big 21 to just lumber in the rhythm. We did a timed drill at 25 yards where you start with your back to the target, on signal turn, draw (from a level 3) and hit a (roughly) 11x14 inch steel target. It was a competition within our dept and I won with a time of like 1.21 seconds or something like that, I can't remember exactly. That's probably slow for all the pistoleros on here, but it was blazing fast compared to the 99% of the people I work with.

Like I said above, I am not getting myself bogged down in tenths of a second. Being too slow is blatantly obvious. In real life there is no "Load, make ready, stand by, beeep!" I view them as theatrics more than anything. Now, if you're training for gun games, they're ultra important.

ETA: If you have a finite amount of money to spend on training gear I'd buy a GoPro or a similar type of camera before I bought a timer. I think video is so much more important and such a better training tool. Then, I'd buy more ammo before I bought a timer.

So you do use a timer. Thanks for the clarification.

[Zincwarrior]

Also note, for dry firing if you don't have a timer or don't want to mess with it: there are free apps that do timers on the phone. You can set it for what time interval you want. It won't show how fast you are doing something but you can set it so that you have to do something in 1.2 seconds, and then set it to do multiple times.

[Hot Cereal]

So you do use a timer. Thanks for the clarification. Personally, I don't. In training at work sometimes they're used.


I think on the bigger picture we're largely in agreement. I don't think we are on the value of timers to get you there. You use video to improve performance. The point is, presumably, objective feedback and to evaluate what works and what doesn't. The exact same thing applies to timers. If you get caught up in hundredths of a second difference is a different question. I don't and use a timer, especially in dry fire. But even if you are obsessing over the most minute of gains...you're getting better so how is that a bad thing? If watching numbers get better motivates you to practice more and get better why would anyone have an issue with that?

Yes tactics matter more. As you yourself point out, that doesn't always happen. Especially for armed civilians who may not have the luxury of a preemptive draw and must do a draw under pressure in a brief opening of a bad guy being distracted. However that whole conversation is just setting up a false dichotomy, as though you can't have both sound tactics and increase your fundamental proficiency with the weapon itself. Why not both? I will also disagree it's blatantly obvious if you're too slow. Not until hindsight anyway, if you get that opportunity.

I am not 100% against timers. As I pointed out previously I notice a training scar in those that use them a lot. They start training solely to be fast and nothing else. I am NOT opining training tactics and training speed are mutually exclusive. I'm opining that I can watch myself or other people come and to the conclusion that X was performed too slowly. If I put it on a timer, sure it would provide some kind of quantitative feed back, but I can video record it and break it down frame by frame for a similar effect. Timers were developed to measure the incredibly small increments of time that stop watches and stop plates couldn't measure.

When it purely comes to shooting skill, nothing else, I am training accuracy first. With repeatable accuracy comes an increase in speed. When you perform the same task over and over again eventually you naturally become faster at performing. If we come to a point in training where we're working to increase an already fast skill and we're using incredibly small increments of time to measure the progress of that skill, I am of the opinion that instead of trying to make ourselves even faster at that skill, we should incorporate that skill into another skill and train that. As long as we aren't regressing in our abilities, we should not bog ourselves down splitting hairs on time.

As for civilian draws. I don't know. I have spent literally hours watching Active Self Protection videos (mostly on mute) and have come to a conclusion that the vast majority of draws during some type of civilian encounter are best when performed at a tactical advantage not purely at blazing fast speed. Sure, getting out of the holster and putting effective hits on target quickly is an important skill, but too often, even in the LE training world, we're training those skills in a worthless training environment. Having a draw to shot time of less than 1.2 seconds is worthless if you aren't moving effectively. Action beats reaction. Someone pointing a gun at you takes what, .25 seconds (I can't remember the exact average time) to make the determination to fire and execute the physical action of pressing the trigger. Even a .5 second draw to first shot speed loses. How often is anyone training to actually draw, shoot, and move at the same time? Not many. Lots of places view it as too much of a safety risk so they stand still, draw, and then move.

[Casual Friday]

Also note, for dry firing if you don't have a timer or don't want to mess with it: there are free apps that do timers on the phone. You can set it for what time interval you want. It won't show how fast you are doing something but you can set it so that you have to do something in 1.2 seconds, and then set it to do multiple times.

The free ISPC timer app picks up dry fire. I use it almost every day. This is from just now.
64705

[BehindBlueI's]

As for civilian draws. I don't know. I have spent literally hours watching Active Self Protection videos (mostly on mute) and have come to a conclusion that the vast majority of draws during some type of civilian encounter are best when performed at a tactical advantage not purely at blazing fast speed.

Total agreement, and I've written fairly extensively (and occasionally professionally) about the value of the disguised draw, the importance of the OODA loop and finding your time to counterambush, that you can't outdraw a drawn gun vs someone who's willing to shoot without that sort of setup, etc.

As far as training scars, I'm sort of to the point I hate that phrase. Name a type of training that does not have the potential to create "training scars". That's why you vary your training so the weaknesses of one sort are covered by the strengths of another.


When it purely comes to shooting skill, nothing else, I am training accuracy first. With repeatable accuracy comes an increase in speed. When you perform the same task over and over again eventually you naturally become faster at performing

Timers help that process, just like your video does. The video is an awesome tool, I certainly don't see them as incompatible. I sped up my draw significantly by dry fire work and par times. I don't believe the simply audio stimulus is the same as complex visual stimulus in the real world, but there's likely some value to reacting to stimulus to start a draw as opposed to making the conscious decision prior to starting the action as well.

And, for what it's worth, I no longer use my fastest draw stroke, I use the slightly slower 4 step draw due to the other advantages I believe it offers over my purely fastest draw. But if I can find efficiencies and time inside that draw and presentation without giving up those advantages...why wouldn't I?

[BehindBlueI's]

Also note, for dry firing if you don't have a timer or don't want to mess with it: there are free apps that do timers on the phone. You can set it for what time interval you want. It won't show how fast you are doing something but you can set it so that you have to do something in 1.2 seconds, and then set it to do multiple times.

There's even websites that will let you do par times or will try to use your mic for shot timing.

I like my little ShotMaxx, but for par times sometimes just use a website.

[Zincwarrior]

There's even websites that will let you do par times or will try to use your mic for shot timing.

I like my little ShotMaxx, but for par times sometimes just use a website.

Yes, I have a timer, but use my phone for dry firing. Its just easier. Admittedly I don't use a timer for dry firing very much. In my defense:
1) I suck.
2) It interfere's with whatever WW2 discussion I am watching on youtube. Zincie can't dry fire unless his people are rolling coal in JS IIs bound for Berlin.

[Clusterfrack]

Here's my perspective: A shot timer is one of the most valuable tools for improving "practical" shooting ability. By practical, I mean USPSA type competition or defense. I would place it just below dry fire in value, and the combination of timed dryfire is essential for serious improvement. When used appropriately, a timer provides unbiased feedback on your progress (time sense is very inaccurate--especially under stress). The stress inoculation alone makes it worthwhile. Video, and high-speed video in particular is my close 3rd for important training tools.

Should you chase stupid-fast par times (e.g. 0.7s AIWB draws, <1s reloads)? Probably not, and for sure not until you've worked on a whole slew of other things. Speed by itself isn't helpful, and can build some bad habits. Dryfire--especially with a shot timer--requires brutal honesty and the right goals and drills. There are some good books that make this easy.

Since we're talking about draws for defensive scenarios, here's a simple drill I do regularly with my carry gun: 10 draws to a good grip, stable sight picture, good trigger press on a 7yd target, under my current par time. If something goes wrong (fouled garment, bad grip), I simply fix it, and take the shot. The shot timer tells me how much time the error cost me. Typically it's a lot less than I would have thought without the timer. Clearing a fouled shirt or fixing my grip costs about 0.2-0.4s. Take-home lesson for me: it's ok to screw up my draw. It happens less and less, but I'll never have 100% consistency. I know I can fix it quickly. This has led to a level of relaxation that I didn't have before.

I've only drawn my carry gun a few times, and fortunately haven't had to shoot anyone or anything. However, the last time I drew, speed was important. The scenario went from "Look at those deer lying down in the grass" to "FUCK! There are 3 mountain lions 10 feet away lying in wait for me and my wife!!!" By building a consistent, fast AIWB draw, I had time to get a sight picture, track the closest cougar, begin to press the DA trigger, and then abort the shot when the animal turned and fled. My guess is the whole thing was over in 1.5s.

[BehindBlueI's]

Here's my perspective: A shot timer is one of the most valuable tools for improving "practical" shooting ability. By practical, I mean USPSA type competition or defense. I would place it just below dry fire in value, and the combination of timed dryfire is essential for serious improvement. When used appropriately, a timer provides unbiased feedback on your progress (time sense is very inaccurate--especially under stress). The stress inoculation alone makes it worthwhile. Video, and high-speed video in particular is my close 3rd for important training tools.

For me personally, a timer or a par time helps me keep my mind on dry fire and it be real practice vs just going through the motions. It's so easy to just get in a rut and have my proverbial thumb up my ass as I go through motions without actually getting anything out of it. A par timer helps keep me in the now and pay more attention.

Now that I have a RDS equipped pistol, I'm finding value in it as a training tool as well. I was able to watch and be honest with myself about the front sight in dry fire, but holy shit is it easier with a dot to see what's moving when.

[Casual Friday]

As for civilian draws. I don't know. I have spent literally hours watching Active Self Protection videos (mostly on mute) and have come to a conclusion that the vast majority of draws during some type of civilian encounter are best when performed at a tactical advantage not purely at blazing fast speed.

This is true. If I'm in a Stop N Rob and that is being held up, and I'm in the back aisle undecided on what ice cream I want, I have the advantage of concealment and can draw in the quietest way possible while calculating my next move. Skinning leather at break neck speed is not an advantage here.


Sure, getting out of the holster and putting effective hits on target quickly is an important skill, but too often, even in the LE training world, we're training those skills in a worthless training environment. Having a draw to shot time of less than 1.2 seconds is worthless if you aren't moving effectively. Action beats reaction.

This is also true. If I'm in a Stop N Rob that is being held up, drawing on a subject with a gun pointed at me is a losing battle. I may put one or three in him, but he's likely to put a few in me first. If there is a moment when his attention is occupied on something else, I want to be able to get that gun out of the holster and Mozambique his ass before he realizes the score just changed.


How often is anyone training to actually draw, shoot, and move at the same time? Not many. Lots of places view it as too much of a safety risk so they stand still, draw, and then move.

I do. Which is why I drive to secluded places to train rather than deal with range rules that cater to the lowest common denominator. Going to an indoor range and having to follow a bunch of "no drawing from a holster, only 1 shot every 3 seconds" rules is completely uninteresting to me.

If I'm able to get my draw from concealment to first shot on target time down to 1.2 seconds, cold and on demand, through dry fire and live fire with a shot timer, why wouldn't I want to have that skill? It's not a detriment to have the ability to do something and not always use it. I can go slower if the situation dictates, but if I've only ever trained in a manner to be able to do it in 3.5 seconds I'm not going to be able to go faster if I need to.

[Clusterfrack]

How often is anyone training to actually draw, shoot, and move at the same time? Not many. Lots of places view it as too much of a safety risk so they stand still, draw, and then move.

Everyone I train with does this so frequently that it’s a given. As well, that’s a common requirement in competitive shooting.

A shot timer can help a shooter reach the goal of a shot from the draw while moving in the same time as while static.

[GJM]

A key to using a shot timer, is to make the timer work for you, and not be a slave to the timer.

For example, when training with Rob Leatham and JJ on accuracy focused drills, they won’t even give you a time if your accuracy is below the specified standard. I start most drills with the timer, but many days don’t look at splits — just see the aggregate time, or don’t look at all.

[JHC]

A key to using a shot timer, is to make the timer work for you, and not be a slave to the timer.

For example, when training with Rob Leatham and JJ on accuracy focused drills, they won’t even give you a time if your accuracy is below the specified standard. I start most drills with the timer, but many days don’t look at splits — just see the aggregate time, or don’t look at all.

That right there gored me in the nads. Esp in my train up for Gabe White school and while in the class. Timer's are vital tools for training to document performance just like scoring hits. It's taken a pretty fair effort for me to stop shooting for an outcome and shoot for process as Pat Mac calls it IIRC.

[Hambo]

I don't know how PACT sets their timers, but mine is all kinds of fucked up. I feel Jim Zubiena/Miami Vice fast, but my PACT reads slow every single time.

[JHC]

I don't know how PACT sets their timers, but mine is all kinds of fucked up. I feel Jim Zubiena/Miami Vice fast, but my PACT reads slow every single time.

LOL nice! Reminds me of the first time I watched a video shot of me shooting a stage in a USPSA match. It looked SOOO fast through my eyes!

[HCM]

The rhythm of the gun. I can tell based on how the gun recoils and settles back on target. I don't really know how to describe it. I definitely shoot a Glock 17 slightly faster, but I have very good rhythm with my M&P45 and Beretta APX. I am required to carry a Glock 21. Despite what people say, I don't love it. The rhythm is weird to me. Something with the way the sights realign on target. I think all Glocks are "snappy" but the 9mm guns just have less kinetic recoil energy so you can go faster and the .40 guns have faster slide velocity so if you stay on top of the gun you can drive it down and back on target quickly. I guess I find the big 21 to just lumber in the rhythm. We did a timed drill at 25 yards where you start with your back to the target, on signal turn, draw (from a level 3) and hit a (roughly) 11x14 inch steel target. It was a competition within our dept and I won with a time of like 1.21 seconds or something like that, I can't remember exactly. That's probably slow for all the pistoleros on here, but it was blazing fast compared to the 99% of the people I work with.



The reason we use technology to measure is because human beings simply aren’t good enough at eyeballing, estimating, and judging time on small scales. This is compounded when you’re trying to evaluate your own performance… because your brain is focused on the performance, not the evaluation.

You don't have to be obsessed with tenths of a second for timers to be useful. Humans are bad at measuring seconds, half seconds and quarter seconds when they are focused on something else.

You have a blue line avatar, so you should be familiar with how unreliable the perceptions of eyewitnesses are, even when they are trying to be as forthcoming and accurate as possible.

The techniques for improving performance with firearms are no different than coaching / training in any other physical endeavor. You need reliable data which can provide objective feed back to track progress or lack there of.

You don't have to give up accuracy to shoot faster. That is the whole point of training.

As a 25 year LEO in an agency that doesn't really support outside training below the Academy / National Firearms unit level, I can tell you that most LE agencies are "small ponds" in terms of shooting skills. If you are "blazing fast" compared to 99% of the people you work with then you need to seek higher level shooting elsewhere to push yourself and hopefully bring some of that back to your agency and "raise all boats."

Being the 1% at your dept usually makes you middle of the pack, at best , among skilled shooters. Ask me how I know. There is an old saying that "Graveyards are full of middling swordsmen." You can hope you don't run into anyone competent or you can up your game. This is why I train on my own and seek outside training with those who perform at a higher than myself . It's a constant process.

Re: moving and shooting- even in agencies where they attempt moving and shooting they don't move enough to make a difference. Again this is why I train on my own and seek outside training.

[vcdgrips]

Hot Cereal:

Bless your heart.

To the others who are reading this thread re timers. I offer a couple of data points.

My first cold drill I do anytime I am on the range which is an amalgam of training with Tom Givens and Todd Louis Green, the founder of the forum is as follows:

1. From concealment-Step off line, present my firearm and shoot 5 rounds at 5 yrds on an 8 inch circle. All fully in or it is a fail.
2. I do it 3x, once to the left, once to the right and usually once to the slower side again.

Because I have timed this with a timer, I know what my first shoot time is and all five shots.
With a 180g Lawman load out of my Glock 35, I am clocking 2.6 to 2.85. First shot is typically 1.5 to 1.75, perhaps a bit faster on a good day. ALWAYS under 2.0
With a 115g WWB, Fiocci or Federal out of a identically configured Glock 34 , I am at 2.35 to 2.6. First shoot is typically the same as above.

My take away from this, amongst other things it that presuming I am live firing 2x a month and dry firing a few times a week, I will be down in the lower times. I therefore know that over the same timeframe, I can usually get 6 shots of 9mm off in the same time as I would otherwise shoot 5 .40 caliber rounds.

Tom Givens taught me to be a huge proponent of doing all non shooting tasks as rapidly as possible so the shooter has the time to acquire the sight picture needed to make the shot one needs to make in a given time frame.

For example, If I was training a shooter that needed to shot 3 rounds center mass in 3 seconds at 7 yrds and they were failing to make time, knowing how much time they were taking on their first shot would give me a quantifiable and repeatable data point upon which I could focus my training efforts. The timer would also do the same if the training evolution had a reloading component to it.

In terms of priority re what to buy.

Gun
Ammo
Quality Holster
Quality Belt
Quality Mag Pouch
Electronic Hearing Protection
Timer

IMHO, based on my direct and vicarious experience, after shooting IPSC, IDPA training generally, and training with multiple client agencies for the last 23 years, a timer is an essential tool.

[HCM]

Timer's are vital tools for training to document performance just like scoring hits. It's taken a pretty fair effort for me to stop shooting for an outcome and shoot for process as Pat Mac calls it IIRC.

The Irony is when you succeed in "shooting the process" it feels slow but per the timer it's actually faster than when it feels fast.

Because feelings lie.

[Hambo]

The Irony is when you succeed in "shooting the process" it feels slow but per the timer it's actually faster than when it feels fast.


Quite true.

[Clusterfrack]

...We did a timed drill at 25 yards where you start with your back to the target, on signal turn, draw (from a level 3) and hit a (roughly) 11x14 inch steel target. It was a competition within our dept and I won with a time of like 1.21 seconds or something like that, I can't remember exactly. That's probably slow for all the pistoleros on here, but it was blazing fast compared to the 99% of the people I work with.

1.21s for a turn-and-draw at 25yds is smoking fast--like legit Grandmaster fast. From a retention holster, that would be even more impressive.

[littlejerry]

I use targets just like everyone else. In fact, I prefer paper to steel purely because steel can hide poor fundamentals with marginal hits. I complete shooting tasks quickly and efficiently, something I don't need a timer to tell me.

False.

"I don't need a timer" is the same as " I don't need paper "

Unless you are measuring your shot times you have no flipping clue how fast or efficient you are.

Drop your ego and measure your performance.

[vcdgrips]

"We did a timed drill at 25 yards where you start with your back to the target, on signal turn, draw (from a level 3) and hit a (roughly) 11x14 inch steel target. It was a competition within our dept and I won with a time of like 1.21 seconds or something like that, I can't remember exactly. That's probably slow for all the pistoleros on here, but it was blazing fast compared to the 99% of the people I work with."

HC

Could it have been 1.31? How about 1.51? How do you know?

Can you you do it right now cold?

I know I cannot because I use a timer.

[Oldherkpilot]

The Irony is when you succeed in "shooting the process" it feels slow but per the timer it's actually faster than when it feels fast.

Because feelings lie.

Your words reminded me of this YouTube video from Travis Haley. He uses a par timer to work on the draw to first shot. I have used the same drill in dry firing draw to first click.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckhJTXywKcQ

[HCM]

Timers were developed to measure the incredibly small increments of time that stop watches and stop plates couldn't measure.

Timers were developed to take the unreliability and recation time of the 3rd party with the stopwatch out of the equation.


When it purely comes to shooting skill, nothing else, I am training accuracy first. With repeatable accuracy comes an increase in speed. When you perform the same task over and over again eventually you naturally become faster at performing. If we come to a point in training where we're working to increase an already fast skill and we're using incredibly small increments of time to measure the progress of that skill, I am of the opinion that instead of trying to make ourselves even faster at that skill, we should incorporate that skill into another skill and train that. As long as we aren't regressing in our abilities, we should not bog ourselves down splitting hairs on time.

Speed does not come naturally. Speed can come via efficiency i.e. sooner not faster, but paradox or not you literally have to work harder to do less. It's just how humans are wired. Video and timers can both play a role here. The other part is pushing till the "wheels fall off." Think about EVOC training. Until you push hard enough to go off the track, you don't REALLY know how fast you can (or can't) take that curve. So you push, the wheels fall off, then you dial it back just enough next time. Then begin the cycle again. That is how you get faster and how fast something "feels." won't get you there. The speedometer will.


As for civilian draws. I don't know. I have spent literally hours watching Active Self Protection videos (mostly on mute) and have come to a conclusion that the vast majority of draws during some type of civilian encounter are best when performed at a tactical advantage not purely at blazing fast speed. Sure, getting out of the holster and putting effective hits on target quickly is an important skill, but too often, even in the LE training world, we're training those skills in a worthless training environment. Having a draw to shot time of less than 1.2 seconds is worthless if you aren't moving effectively. Action beats reaction. Someone pointing a gun at you takes what, .25 seconds (I can't remember the exact average time) to make the determination to fire and execute the physical action of pressing the trigger. Even a .5 second draw to first shot speed loses. How often is anyone training to actually draw, shoot, and move at the same time? Not many. Lots of places view it as too much of a safety risk so they stand still, draw, and then move.

A starting with the gun in hand via tactical or surreptitious is always preferable but not always possible.

I addressed movement and LE training in a prior post. safety / liability is not the only consideration. There is a lot of "groundhog day" in LE firearms training, especially in agencies which cater to the lowest common denominator instead of high standards and making the LCD's keep up if they want to stay employed.

Again - reason to seek higher level shooting outside the dept / state post, whatever.

A legit 1.2 draw is far from worthless. Especially if you can make good hits from that draw speed. How many cops can do a legit 1.5 draw ? Some folks have put various "draw to pointed gun" videos on active self protection on timers and figured out you need about a 1 second draw to beat "the drop" aka a pointed gun. That still doesn't mean a 1.2 or even 1.5 draw is useless.

[HCM]

Your words reminded me of this YouTube video from Travis Haley. He uses a par timer to work on the draw to first shot. I have used the same drill in dry firing draw to first click.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckhJTXywKcQ


https://youtu.be/ckhJTXywKcQ

[MickAK]

Some people need a timer. Some people don't.

You're not the same person for your entire life though. I used a timer initially then stopped because it was a distraction from what I needed to focus on. I didn't need to be on the clock to have an impulse towards speed. After an injury, moving fast hurts. It doesn't feel like it stops me but it does. I know that because of the timer. I now need the timer to get the reps in correctly, because my body wants me to slow down. My brain doesn't want to accept that I move slower, but the timer makes it.

[Oldherkpilot]

Some people need a timer. Some people don't.

You're not the same person for your entire life though. I used a timer initially then stopped because it was a distraction from what I needed to focus on. I didn't need to be on the clock to have an impulse towards speed. After an injury, moving fast hurts. It doesn't feel like it stops me but it does. I know that because of the timer. I now need the timer to get the reps in correctly, because my body wants me to slow down. My brain doesn't want to accept that I move slower, but the timer makes it.

You're not alone in this department. During introductions at a class last year, I explained that "unfortunately, I'm getting older faster than I'm getting better." No help for it, just keep swinging.

[Joe in PNG]

There was a Top Gear episode a few years back, where the Hamster tried to drive a F1 car. His feelings told him that he was driving insanely, frighteningly fast- and this is a man that is no stranger to fast cars. However, the telemetry told the crew the truth- he was actually not driving fast enough for the car to work properly. The tires and brakes weren't getting enough heat to properly function, and the aeros weren't getting enough wind for proper downforce.

Once again, feelings lie.

[Hot Cereal]

That right there gored me in the nads. Esp in my train up for Gabe White school and while in the class. Timer's are vital tools for training to document performance just like scoring hits. It's taken a pretty fair effort for me to stop shooting for an outcome and shoot for process as Pat Mac calls it IIRC. I want to go train with Pat Mac. I like his philosphies.


The reason we use technology to measure is because human beings simply aren’t good enough at eyeballing, estimating, and judging time on small scales. This is compounded when you’re trying to evaluate your own performance… because your brain is focused on the performance, not the evaluation.

You don't have to be obsessed with tenths of a second for timers to be useful. Humans are bad at measuring seconds, half seconds and quarter seconds when they are focused on something else.

You have a blue line avatar, so you should be familiar with how unreliable the perceptions of eyewitnesses are, even when they are trying to be as forthcoming and accurate as possible.

The techniques for improving performance with firearms are no different than coaching / training in any other physical endeavor. You need reliable data which can provide objective feed back to track progress or lack there of.

You don't have to give up accuracy to shoot faster. That is the whole point of training.

As a 25 year LEO in an agency that doesn't really support outside training below the Academy / National Firearms unit level, I can tell you that most LE agencies are "small ponds" in terms of shooting skills. If you are "blazing fast" compared to 99% of the people you work with then you need to seek higher level shooting elsewhere to push yourself and hopefully bring some of that back to your agency and "raise all boats."

Being the 1% at your dept usually makes you middle of the pack, at best , among skilled shooters. Ask me how I know. There is an old saying that "Graveyards are full of middling swordsmen." You can hope you don't run into anyone competent or you can up your game. This is why I train on my own and seek outside training with those who perform at a higher than myself . It's a constant process.

Re: moving and shooting- even in agencies where they attempt moving and shooting they don't move enough to make a difference. Again this is why I train on my own and seek outside training.

You come across to me as that guy who makes everything a lot more complicated than it really is. Train for accuracy: Put all your shots inside this circle. Good. Now, do it again. Ok, good. Now, do it a little faster. If I can't get someone to hit the target making them faster won't do me a bit of good. If I can get that person to hit the target I can make them faster. I don't need a timer to take one mediocre to novice shooter and compare them to another mediocre to novice shooter to determine they need to be faster. Frankly, what tells me how they're doing is putting them into an unknown FoF scenario.

Sure, a timer provides some quantifiable data, but what is your end goal? Constantly get faster? Where are you drawing the line? What kinds of expectations are you setting up? Does everyone have to be under X time? What if they aren't? Are you going to put them on the desk? Is your qual timed? How do you time all those people shooting at the same time? Oh, turning targets? An old fashioned stop watch? You're acquiring data points from a known course of fire, and at the very least using targets that are either static or don't move much. Real life isn't like that. You should know that, you probably do.

What about all the other aspects this martial art that are FAR more important? Like I said previously, I am not 100% anti-timer. I think they end up taking over the goal of training because they typically end up not being used improperly. For all this love affair with timers I don't think anyone has commented on my opinion of FoF training. The timer is useless if your tactics suck. Focus on the right things.

Sure, humans are terrible at estimating time. Eye witnesses typically get the details wrong. Feeling doesn't always equal reality. But, being able to tell when someone isn't hacking it doesn't take a timer. Once we're getting timers involved we should be at a rather high level of proficiency. How do you deal with the cop who goes on line, struggles to shoot a 2.5 second draw to shot time, now they know they are slow, now they have confidence issues, oops we ran out of time for today and now they have to go back on the road with a lack of confidence? To me, until someone is at a moderate to high level of proficiency, you're wasting your time with a timer. I would rather have confident cops than data points.

I'm sure that you and others will have X and Y data points to tell me I'm wrong, but really this is a lot of opinion and a lot of this is subjective. I am not saying we should be OK with mediocre speed, allow people to go too slow, or totally throw away the timer from tactical training, however, I am of the opinion that it's uses are not as vast and broad as this forum would have people believe.

False

"I don't need a timer" is the same as " I don't need paper "

Unless you are measuring your shot times you have no flipping clue how fast or efficient you are.

Drop your ego and measure your performance. Wrong, I just used paper today. Plenty of folks train and survive without shot timers.


"We did a timed drill at 25 yards where you start with your back to the target, on signal turn, draw (from a level 3) and hit a (roughly) 11x14 inch steel target. It was a competition within our dept and I won with a time of like 1.21 seconds or something like that, I can't remember exactly. That's probably slow for all the pistoleros on here, but it was blazing fast compared to the 99% of the people I work with."

HC

Could it have been 1.31? How about 1.51? How do you know?

Can you you do it right now cold?

I know I cannot because I use a timer. I said I don't remember the exact time, but we used a shot timer. I think it was a PACT.

[littlejerry]

Wrong, I just used paper today. Plenty of folks train and survive without shot timers.


Whooosh...

That's the sound of something going over your head.

[Clusterfrack]

I'm sure we can find a lot of common ground, and I wonder if we all can bring this thread back toward that goal.

FoF is awesome. So is BJJ, and "competitive non-consensual" training in general. Combative arts that lack a reality check can lead to delusion.

I don't agree with Hot Cereal that one needs a high level of proficiency before a timer is helpful, but it's an interesting proposition. When in the course of training do we introduce a timer, and why?

Confidence is important. However, false confidence is risky. I imagine it is even riskier as a LEO. I believe it is important to know my limits, have a growth mindset, and always push myself to expand those limits. Full and partial contact combatives training, live and dryfire with a timer, and competitive shooting are all great reality checks. It's humbling and painful, but I enjoy it!

On the other hand, I will never push someone to train in a way they don't want to.


What about all the other aspects this martial art that are FAR more important? Like I said previously, I am not 100% anti-timer. I think they end up taking over the goal of training because they typically end up not being used improperly. For all this love affair with timers I don't think anyone has commented on my opinion of FoF training. The timer is useless if your tactics suck. Focus on the right things.

To me, until someone is at a moderate to high level of proficiency, you're wasting your time with a timer. I would rather have confident cops than data points.

Plenty of folks train and survive without shot timers.
.

[Joe Mac]

Hot Cereal:

Bless your heart.

To the others who are reading this thread re timers. I offer a couple of data points.

My first cold drill I do anytime I am on the range which is an amalgam of training with Tom Givens and Todd Louis Green, the founder of the forum is as follows:

1. From concealment-Step off line, present my firearm and shoot 5 rounds at 5 yrds on an 8 inch circle. All fully in or it is a fail.
2. I do it 3x, once to the left, once to the right and usually once to the slower side again.

Because I have timed this with a timer, I know what my first shoot time is and all five shots.
With a 180g Lawman load out of my Glock 35, I am clocking 2.6 to 2.85. First shot is typically 1.5 to 1.75, perhaps a bit faster on a good day. ALWAYS under 2.0
With a 115g WWB, Fiocci or Federal out of a identically configured Glock 34 , I am at 2.35 to 2.6. First shoot is typically the same as above.


Since this whole offshoot thread began with the OP mentioning the .40 cartridge and his own speed with a G23, I have data points to contribute similar to VCD's above.

The PD I recently retired from was strictly a .40 shop for 15+ years, until opening up the choice of 9mm, .40, or .45 (all Glocks) some years back. Being an unapologetically nerdy devotee of the shot timer, I set up a series of tests to decide whether it was worth converting to 9mm across the board (which would involve the not inconsiderable cost of purchasing a pile of 9mm Glocks, because...gun nerd).

One of the tests was exactly what VCD described above: how quickly can I keep 5 shots in an 8" circle at 5 yards? I happened to have identically configured G23 and G19 handy, and ran this drill many times with duty ammo (Gold Dot 180 vs. 124+P). The average difference in split times, with equal accuracy, was no more than .015 -- that's it. The same difference was found after running the FAST many times.

Granted, I'm kind of a big ape, but I do think the allegedly vicious .40 recoil (particularly in 180 gr trim) is overblown -- especially when compared with hot 9mm ammo, as opposed to mouse-fart range ammo.

I did end up switching to 9mm, which is all I use anymore -- but not for that inconsequentially tiny increase in speed.

[BehindBlueI's]

Confidence is important. However, false confidence is risky. I imagine it is even riskier as a LEO. I believe it is important to know my limits, have a growth mindset, and always push myself to expand those limits.


When I was teaching I put together a class for people who already knew the basics of shooting with the goal of imparting tactics, understanding OODA, etc. It was roughly 3/4 range time and 1/4 classroom time with video from actual cases I'd worked, etc.

The very first drill was this:

Dry fire at a target double arm's length away. Shooter assumes the role of "bad guy" and has the gun presented. Finger may be on the trigger at shooter's option (with explanation that bad guys often have shitty trigger discipline). Dry fire as a group with par times. IIRC the first par time was .80, then .60, then .40. Of course damn near everyone would beat even the hardest par time. Then I'd ask who had a sub 0.40 second draw to first shot, which nobody would. I'd then make the point they couldn't beat themselves trying to draw on a drawn gun without disguising the draw, getting inside the OODA loop, etc.

So while this was perhaps an unconventional use of a timer it was a way to make a point that was so clear cut it could not be argued against. It was incontrovertible proof that they couldn't beat anyone else on that line without cheating to gain an advantage in that situation.

Then watching videos you'd start to get an idea of how fast you needed to be, because not everybody won in the videos I showed. How much time a distraction gave you in various situations. Watch someone be too slow (and fail to implement a disguised draw, watching the body language of the bad guy go from confused to "oh shit we're about to fight" and then see the victim catch a bullet just below the jugular notch and maybe realize that fast draw competitions aren't what win the day but slow draws don't either and we don't always have the best tactics but have to fight from the hole we find ourselves in. There are diminishing returns once you're into "good enough" territory for sure, but again who wants to be slower all else being equal?


**EDIT**

Side benefit is we got to watch people's gun handling and identify any safety concerns before they were hot, which in an open enrollment class especially is useful. God bless those of you who still teach, I don't want the liability in today's climate.

[BehindBlueI's]

The average difference in split times, with equal accuracy, was no more than .015 -- that's it.

My experience with, at the time, a P229, was very similar. At first. Then the gap opened up a bit more. I think part of it was I was so ingrained to shooting the "metronome" of the pace I knew I could shoot the .40 well at that I wasn't taking advantage of the new "metronome" the 9mm allowed for until I recalibrated my brain. If it's a meaningful difference is another story. With Glocks I found the gap to be a bit more pronounced, but I have nerve damage and at that time it was still fresh enough that my left hand's grip strength was severely compromised.

[GJM]

While people latch onto better shooting performance with a 9mm, as a main justification over .40, I think the two largest benefits of 9mm are the caliber is easier than .40 on a shooter’s body and their guns. And the more shooting you do, the more pronounced those benefits are.

[Hot Cereal]

I'm sure we can find a lot of common ground, and I wonder if we all can bring this thread back toward that goal.

FoF is awesome. So is BJJ, and "competitive non-consensual" training in general. Combative arts that lack a reality check can lead to delusion.

I don't agree with Hot Cereal that one needs a high level of proficiency before a timer is helpful, but it's an interesting proposition. When in the course of training do we introduce a timer, and why?

Confidence is important. However, false confidence is risky. I imagine it is even riskier as a LEO. I believe it is important to know my limits, have a growth mindset, and always push myself to expand those limits. Full and partial contact combatives training, live and dryfire with a timer, and competitive shooting are all great reality checks. It's humbling and painful, but I enjoy it!

On the other hand, I will never push someone to train in a way they don't want to.
Valid question about when to introduce the timer. I was just thinking about that and how to describe my opinion on it. I think an appropriate time to do so would be when a shooter is able to accomplish basic accuracy and weapon manipulation efficiently, without fumbling, dropping things, making safety mistakes, etc. That they have a level of proficiency that brings them a certain level of confidence to begin with. Once that has been attained using devices to really push their performance becomes more constructive because they have the basic fundamentals to accept their results, analyze their actions and mistakes and apply that data accordingly.

In another life I coached lacrosse as a professional side hustle. I ended up building a couple good teams. What I found led to the most success was pushing fundamental skills. I drilled these kids until they were about to go crazy. When it came time to introduce offensive and defensive tactics they already had the fundamentals down so introducing more complex ideas was easy. They executed and we won games.

I view using a timer, moving targets, FoF, shooting on the move, cover, concealment, etc. in no particular order. Without base fundamentals you end up teaching or training for that specific task, not using your fundamental skills to get you there. If I tried to implement an offensive strategy with kids that can barely pass and catch that’s a losing proposition. It won’t be successful. Now I’m trying to teach an offensive tactic and basic fundamentals at the same time.

If you don’t have the basic fundamentals to be able to shoot accurately with relative speed, as some others have posted, you run the risk of becoming a slave to the timer. A large majority of shooters don’t have a base level of proficiency and fundamentals to start benefitting from that additional tool.

When I watch videos of people shooting on a timer a lot of them set the timer, put it on their belt, assume some unnatural ready position, set their stance, and wait for the beep. What part of that is grounded in any form of reality? You KNOW the timer is going to beep at some point. You KNOW that you’re going to shoot. You KNOW where the target is or generally will be. How does that training equate to assessing a situation that is unknown, with dynamic threats, which requires more assessment, analyzing your own positioning, where is cover, do I have cover, can I find concealment, is this guy going to pull out a weapon, I need to give verbal commands, etc. You’re doing so much in a real situation that timer drills make me question- why? What purpose is this drill serving me?

Like I said, I’m not 100% against them, I am just not certain what their real purpose is outside of competition. If life was a John Wick movie and everyone was a trained assassin grandmaster level shooter, fine. We are FAR more likely to come across someone with some type of MMA training level than we are someone with some level of firearms training. (That doesn’t mean we should accept mediocrity.)

[BehindBlueI's]

When I watch videos of people shooting on a timer a lot of them set the timer, put it on their belt, assume some unnatural ready position, set their stance, and wait for the beep. What part of that is grounded in any form of reality? You KNOW the timer is going to beep at some point. You KNOW that you’re going to shoot. You KNOW where the target is or generally will be.

You're asking why a fundamentals drill doesn't teach FoF components. Well, because it's not supposed to. Complaining timed drills don't replicate FoF lessons is like complaining FoF makes it tough to evaluate and adjust the shooter's grip. Do you worry that FoF isn't teaching reading pre-assault indicators because the role players aren't really behaving naturally? Or that it creates an artificial level of situational awareness because the student knows the odds of "something happening" are damn near 100%? Do you distract your student for 30 minutes of eating lunch and bullshitting until he starts to forget he's in a scenario and then start it? Do you use professional actors who are trained to display realistic pre-attack indicators? Of course not, the reality and constraints of training make that nonsensical. You teach body language reading, situational awareness, etc. as a separate component. That's why *every* type of training, practice, or gaming results in some sort of so-called "training scar". It's not real. None of it completely encompasses a real shooting. But each is a piece to the total puzzle of a well rounded fighter.

I don't know shit about lacrosse, so I can't make an analogy there but I assume everyone's familiar enough with basketball to get this one. What does dribbling the ball around an empty court by yourself have to do with dribbling the ball when someone's trying to steal it from you? What does shooting a 3 point shot with all the time in the world and nobody trying to block you have to do with shooting one in a game? Obviously it's just one component of being a successful basketball player and having a strong 3-pointer. Yet Larry Bird did those exact things a metric shit ton and did pretty well for himself.

Nobody is saying do timed drills to the exclusion of FoF. False dichotomy.

[Clusterfrack]

Yeah, there are a lot of Instagram Grandmasters :D. A lot of dryfire drills are "micro" drills, where we pick a particular skill and work on it in isolation. E.g. getting the mag out of the carrier and inserted to "just the tip".


When I watch videos of people shooting on a timer a lot of them set the timer, put it on their belt, assume some unnatural ready position, set their stance, and wait for the beep. What part of that is grounded in any form of reality? You KNOW the timer is going to beep at some point. You KNOW that you’re going to shoot. You KNOW where the target is or generally will be. How does that training equate to assessing a situation that is unknown, with dynamic threats, which requires more assessment, analyzing your own positioning, where is cover, do I have cover, can I find concealment, is this guy going to pull out a weapon, I need to give verbal commands, etc. You’re doing so much in a real situation that timer drills make me question- why? What purpose is this drill serving me?

Like I said, I’m not 100% against them, I am just not certain what their real purpose is outside of competition. If life was a John Wick movie and everyone was a trained assassin grandmaster level shooter, fine. We are FAR more likely to come across someone with some type of MMA training level than we are someone with some level of firearms training. (That doesn’t mean we should accept mediocrity.)

[Joe in PNG]

Yeah, there are a lot of Instagram Grandmasters :D. A lot of dryfire drills are "micro" drills, where we pick a particular skill and work on it in isolation. E.g. getting the mag out of the carrier and inserted to "just the tip".

A lot of athletics training is just that- picking a particular skill and working on it in isolation in order to get better at it, and to remove 'slop'.
And a lot of athletics use timers for just that purpose- to see progress in that particular isolated skill.

Likewise, musicians will isolate and practice certain parts of a whole piece of music, and will 'time' themselves with a metronome to ensure they are playing it at the right speed.

[Hot Cereal]

You're asking why a fundamentals drill doesn't teach FoF components. Well, because it's not supposed to. Complaining timed drills don't replicate FoF lessons is like complaining FoF makes it tough to evaluate and adjust the shooter's grip. Do you worry that FoF isn't teaching reading pre-assault indicators because the role players aren't really behaving naturally? Or that it creates an artificial level of situational awareness because the student knows the odds of "something happening" are damn near 100%? Do you distract your student for 30 minutes of eating lunch and bullshitting until he starts to forget he's in a scenario and then start it? Do you use professional actors who are trained to display realistic pre-attack indicators? Of course not, the reality and constraints of training make that nonsensical. You teach body language reading, situational awareness, etc. as a separate component. That's why *every* type of training, practice, or gaming results in some sort of so-called "training scar". It's not real. None of it completely encompasses a real shooting. But each is a piece to the total puzzle of a well rounded fighter. My previous agency actually paid for hired actors, special effects and make up people, and used actual buildings in our jurisdiction to conduct mandatory active shooter training every year. It was about as real as could be. We ran through at least three scenarios and not all of them were scenarios that involved shooting. It was excellent training. We did it full kit, alarms going off, comms down, you name it. Excellent training that no doubt cost a metric fuckton. But, it was a large county agency with a large county budget. Another FoF training I was fortunate enough to participate in was absolutely excellent. It was routine calls for service. Over half of them there was no use of force. Just critique on the small things. Excellent training that took away the anticipation that you’re talking about and that is very real.

Yes, I would like to put people through training that consisted of bullshitting and then a scenario. That’s realistic. You can go from bullshitting over a cup of coffee to rolling with a tweaked in 3 mins. Been there, done that.

Most times shooting drills are pretty irrelevant to an operational LE or civilian environment. If we’re doing live fire the ICTS that the Instructor Zero guy uses is pretty intriguing. I had the opportunity to train that and it’s night and day between static targets.

The majority of OIS incidents are shootings, not fights. A lot of persons armed with impact weapons that start at a stand off distance and then evolve into a shooting. Blazing fast draw to shot times aren’t relevant in those scenarios. I’d rather have a person with a decent draw to accurate shot speed that had the tactics training to help put them in the best position to make it out with no extra holes. We need relevant training. Cops are getting in bad situations because most of our training isn’t relevant.

Now, something I WOULD like to use a timer for is something like this: walk this line forward, when a threat appears move to this area behind cover while engage the threat. That’s a pretty rough scenario but I think you get the gist.



I don't know shit about lacrosse, so I can't make an analogy there but I assume everyone's familiar enough with basketball to get this one. What does dribbling the ball around an empty court by yourself have to do with dribbling the ball when someone's trying to steal it from you? What does shooting a 3 point shot with all the time in the world and nobody trying to block you have to do with shooting one in a game? Obviously it's just one component of being a successful basketball player and having a strong 3-pointer. Yet Larry Bird did those exact things a metric shit ton and did pretty well for himself.

Nobody is saying do timed drills to the exclusion of FoF. False dichotomy. If you can’t dribble with no pressure then you sure as hell can’t dribble under pressure Your example is exactly what I’m talking about. Build those fundamentals without any additional pressure before you introduce the pressure.

I’m not implying timed drills to the exclusion of FoF and I’m not suggesting that anyone is saying that. If that’s how it came across that’s not what I meant at all. I think even our shooting drills should be rooted in some reality.

This all being said, I am a constant student with an open mind, what’s a good timer to pick up for decent cash? I’m open to trying things out. I’m open to new perspectives and I really think this discussion has provided at lot of food for thought.

[BehindBlueI's]

My previous agency actually paid for hired actors, special effects and make up people, and used actual buildings in our jurisdiction to conduct mandatory active shooter training every year. It was about as real as could be. We ran through at least three scenarios and not all of them were scenarios that involved shooting. It was excellent training. We did it full kit, alarms going off, comms down, you name it. Excellent training that no doubt cost a metric fuckton. But, it was a large county agency with a large county budget. Another FoF training I was fortunate enough to participate in was absolutely excellent. It was routine calls for service. Over half of them there was no use of force. Just critique on the small things. Excellent training that took away the anticipation that you’re talking about and that is very real.

We've done the same, except I don't think they were actors. Just regular people who volunteered. I've done it *maybe* once every 5 years, and only one had more then a hundred roleplayers. Definitely not enough to maintain the level of proficiency we'd like and, face it, very few people have access to that sort of thing ever. So it's really a different discussion.

As far as what timer, I like the shotmaxx. I'm kicking around ordering a Gen 2. It's a wristwatch style timer that uses both an audio sensor and/or an accelerometer. The accelerometer is awesome because I can shoot right next to someone firing a rifle and it won't pick up any of their shots. My department range is outside but with walls and baffles and it's loud and echo-y. You don't have to worry about echoes or other shooters in accelerometer mode. The downsides are it doesn't store a lot of data (although I think the new one does plus you can hook it to an app to store more data), the face scratches fairly easily on the first gen, and if you do one handed drills it has to be on the wrist of the hand you're using (when using the accelerometer only, obviously). The audio mode will go sensitive enough to catch the hammer fall of a TDA Sig, but I pretty much just use par times for dry fire.

[mmc45414]

IMO one value of the timer is to create even a slight sense of pressure to execute and improve. Fast "enough" is going to be a big variable, knowing how fast you "can" shoot might establish a higher confidence level to do what needs to be done. A recent example might be the OIS involving Toni McBride, where body camera video shows her shooting vastly slower than she has frequently demonstrated and documented publicly. She shot fast enough to stop the charging knife guy, but if the dude was shooting at her I am sure her splits woulda been a lot less.

But the timer is just a measuring device that picks a winner in competition or measures individual progress. Blaming the timer for things people do with timers is just like my MIL blaming her TV for some of the shit that is on TV. 1/100 of a second only matters if you get first pick at the prize table.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[NoTacTravis]

Objective measurements and practice performing under pressure? Bah! Who wants that when you have the option to self evaluate and be the biggest fish your little mud puddle has ever seen?

Reminds me of uber-deadly martial arts masters who would never compete.

I'm so worried about training scars that I don't train. That way when things are for realsies NOTHING will stand in the way of the performance I've been imagining I will be capable of.

Clearly no one can argue against the supreme logic I've laid out above. I mean I don't have a timer but I'm pretty sure I shot El Presidente in some kind of local record last time I shot it. I mean it felt REALLY fast so a logical guess is a second or so faster than Sevigny ammiright?

[Clusterfrack]

Hot Cereal, the AMG Lab Commander is the best timer, but is backordered. Here’s a good basic timer:

https://benstoegerproshop.com/competition-electronics-pocket-pro-2-shot-timer/

[MickAK]

I don't agree with Hot Cereal that one needs a high level of proficiency before a timer is helpful, but it's an interesting proposition. When in the course of training do we introduce a timer, and why?


I think you can introduce a timer at any point after safe handling is ingrained. Figuring out when and if to pull a timer is more difficult. At that point you're off in the land of 'feelings'.

It's easy to say 'don't be a slave to the timer' but harder to implement. I don't respect and try to emulate the shooters that I do because of their times. I do so because their motions are natural, like breathing, not a performance to a timer. I think some people can get there while running a timer the entire time, and some people need to put the timer away and just flow. Once you go away from measurable metrics and start using words like 'just like breathing' and 'flow' you more or less lose the ability to discuss it with people on the internet, because there isn't any way to prove you're not just spouting bullshit that sounds good. They can still be important though.

[HCM]

I want to go train with Pat Mac. I like his philosphies.



You come across to me as that guy who makes everything a lot more complicated than it really is. Train for accuracy: Put all your shots inside this circle. Good. Now, do it again. Ok, good. Now, do it a little faster. If I can't get someone to hit the target making them faster won't do me a bit of good. If I can get that person to hit the target I can make them faster. I don't need a timer to take one mediocre to novice shooter and compare them to another mediocre to novice shooter to determine they need to be faster. Frankly, what tells me how they're doing is putting them into an unknown FoF scenario.

Sure, a timer provides some quantifiable data, but what is your end goal? Constantly get faster? Where are you drawing the line? What kinds of expectations are you setting up? Does everyone have to be under X time? What if they aren't? Are you going to put them on the desk? Is your qual timed? How do you time all those people shooting at the same time? Oh, turning targets? An old fashioned stop watch? You're acquiring data points from a known course of fire, and at the very least using targets that are either static or don't move much. Real life isn't like that. You should know that, you probably do.

What about all the other aspects this martial art that are FAR more important? Like I said previously, I am not 100% anti-timer. I think they end up taking over the goal of training because they typically end up not being used improperly. For all this love affair with timers I don't think anyone has commented on my opinion of FoF training. The timer is useless if your tactics suck. Focus on the right things.

Sure, humans are terrible at estimating time. Eye witnesses typically get the details wrong. Feeling doesn't always equal reality. But, being able to tell when someone isn't hacking it doesn't take a timer. Once we're getting timers involved we should be at a rather high level of proficiency. How do you deal with the cop who goes on line, struggles to shoot a 2.5 second draw to shot time, now they know they are slow, now they have confidence issues, oops we ran out of time for today and now they have to go back on the road with a lack of confidence? To me, until someone is at a moderate to high level of proficiency, you're wasting your time with a timer. I would rather have confident cops than data points.

I'm sure that you and others will have X and Y data points to tell me I'm wrong, but really this is a lot of opinion and a lot of this is subjective. I am not saying we should be OK with mediocre speed, allow people to go too slow, or totally throw away the timer from tactical training, however, I am of the opinion that it's uses are not as vast and broad as this forum would have people believe.
Wrong, I just used paper today. Plenty of folks train and survive without shot timers.

I said I don't remember the exact time, but we used a shot timer. I think it was a PACT.

You need to work both speed and accuracy. then bring them together in practical applications. Trying to work both at the same time is inefficient. Just shooting a lot and hoping you get better isn't a rational act.

You see a time solely as a "time hack" to eliminate people i.e. a form of time pressure. LE uses Time pressure in the form of turning targets and man on man competition all the time. The reason you see more turning targets than shot timers is it is simply the quickest and cheapest way to induce / enforce par times.

As myself and others have detailed, a timer is a tool to make people better, if you know what you are doing. The process is no more complicated that of coaching / training any other physical or athletic activity.

The crux of the argument is this: timers and targets don't lie. They produce objective data. There is nothing subjective about it.

We all like to stay in our comfort zone and work what we are good at but your comfort zone will kill you. Objective data will either motivate you to work on your weaknesses or deny the data.

Hint: I don't use timers because I am naturally fast...

[HCM]

While people latch onto better shooting performance with a 9mm, as a main justification over .40, I think the two largest benefits of 9mm are the caliber is easier than .40 on a shooter’s body and their guns. And the more shooting you do, the more pronounced those benefits are.

As well as ammo cost and capacity.

180 is an improvement over the 155 grain my agency issued for many years.

[HCM]

Originally Posted by Hot Cereal
When I watch videos of people shooting on a timer a lot of them set the timer, put it on their belt, assume some unnatural ready position, set their stance, and wait for the beep. What part of that is grounded in any form of reality? You KNOW the timer is going to beep at some point. You KNOW that you’re going to shoot. You KNOW where the target is or generally will be.

Random attacks to keep you sharp.. I've seen that training method before....


https://youtu.be/Tu1RZaFnkKs


https://youtu.be/ghBY8dakqJ4

[BobM]

While people latch onto better shooting performance with a 9mm, as a main justification over .40, I think the two largest benefits of 9mm are the caliber is easier than .40 on a shooter’s body and their guns. And the more shooting you do, the more pronounced those benefits are.

Now in my mid 50s I can definitely tell the difference between taking a weekend class with my 9 as opposed to my 40s.

[Joe in PNG]

To go back to a musician analogy, there's a lot a musician does in practice that has a loose relation to what they do during a performance. They may practice pure musical scales in different positions. They may may play through drills and exercises repeatedly to work up familiarity with fingerings in unfamiliar positions. They will probably do it with a metronome, slowly at first, then speed up as they get more familiar.

They may then practice the actual piece they plan on performing, but even then, they won't always play the whole piece straight through. They may focus on and repeat a particularly difficult passage- first slowly (with a metronome), then faster.

In both cases, the more familiar they are with their instrument, and with the music they are playing, the better they are able to concentrate on the song during the performance. One is able to make a two position jump on the fingerboard without looking, or play around a broken string- or even work out a pretty cool improv on the fly.

Like shooting, it's a technical skill, and I think the ideas convert well to shooting.

[Archer1440]

A recent example might be the OIS involving Toni McBride, where body camera video shows her shooting vastly slower than she has frequently demonstrated and documented publicly. She shot fast enough to stop the charging knife guy, but if the dude was shooting at her I am sure her splits woulda been a lot less.

At the risk of stepping out of my lane here, I would point out that historically, LAPD officers were trained to shoot with a cadence not faster than 0.50, and get their hits. Having trained under Larry Mudgett multiple times, I can tell you that he places marksmanship far above sheer speed. I would expect his doctrine to still have some influence in LA, but I don’t know directly.

(Or to quite Walt Wilkinson, “speed is The Devil”.)

;)

[HCM]

My previous agency actually paid for hired actors, special effects and make up people, and used actual buildings in our jurisdiction to conduct mandatory active shooter training every year. It was about as real as could be. We ran through at least three scenarios and not all of them were scenarios that involved shooting. It was excellent training. We did it full kit, alarms going off, comms down, you name it. Excellent training that no doubt cost a metric fuckton. But, it was a large county agency with a large county budget. Another FoF training I was fortunate enough to participate in was absolutely excellent. It was routine calls for service. Over half of them there was no use of force. Just critique on the small things. Excellent training that took away the anticipation that you’re talking about and that is very real.

Yes, I would like to put people through training that consisted of bullshitting and then a scenario. That’s realistic. You can go from bullshitting over a cup of coffee to rolling with a tweaked in 3 mins. Been there, done that.

Most times shooting drills are pretty irrelevant to an operational LE or civilian environment. If we’re doing live fire the ICTS that the Instructor Zero guy uses is pretty intriguing. I had the opportunity to train that and it’s night and day between static targets.

The majority of OIS incidents are shootings, not fights. A lot of persons armed with impact weapons that start at a stand off distance and then evolve into a shooting. Blazing fast draw to shot times aren’t relevant in those scenarios. I’d rather have a person with a decent draw to accurate shot speed that had the tactics training to help put them in the best position to make it out with no extra holes. We need relevant training. Cops are getting in bad situations because most of our training isn’t relevant.

Now, something I WOULD like to use a timer for is something like this: walk this line forward, when a threat appears move to this area behind cover while engage the threat. That’s a pretty rough scenario but I think you get the gist.

If you can’t dribble with no pressure then you sure as hell can’t dribble under pressure Your example is exactly what I’m talking about. Build those fundamentals without any additional pressure before you introduce the pressure.

I’m not implying timed drills to the exclusion of FoF and I’m not suggesting that anyone is saying that. If that’s how it came across that’s not what I meant at all. I think even our shooting drills should be rooted in some reality.

This all being said, I am a constant student with an open mind, what’s a good timer to pick up for decent cash? I’m open to trying things out. I’m open to new perspectives and I really think this discussion has provided at lot of food for thought.

My Agency's Academy does all the FOF, scenario, paid non cop role player training as well (Cops are lousy role players). They are important but not relevant to the timer as a tool for improving skills because scenarios and FOF aren't skill builders. They are practical applications of skills as well as stress inoculation.

If you take Clusterfrack's recommendation, the Pocket Pro II is a good timer. It's an older design, for best results don't leave the battery in it between uses. I keep mine in a Magpul Daka pouch or a ziploc bag to keep everything together.

[HCM]

At the risk of stepping out of my lane here, I would point out that historically, LAPD officers were trained to shoot with a cadence not faster than 0.50, and get their hits. Having trained under Larry Mudgett multiple times, I can tell you that he places marksmanship far above sheer speed. I would expect his doctrine to still have some influence in LA, but I don’t know directly.

(Or to quite Walt Wilkinson, “speed is The Devil”.)

;)

Assessment speed is a thing but shooting faster in training is an example of train hard, fight easy.

[HCM]

Some people need a timer. Some people don't.

You're not the same person for your entire life though. I used a timer initially then stopped because it was a distraction from what I needed to focus on. I didn't need to be on the clock to have an impulse towards speed. After an injury, moving fast hurts. It doesn't feel like it stops me but it does. I know that because of the timer. I now need the timer to get the reps in correctly, because my body wants me to slow down. My brain doesn't want to accept that I move slower, but the timer makes it.

You bring up a great point.

Using the timer to push yourself not only gets you to move faster, but eventually it resets your impression of what "feels" fast. It also seems to help you "see" faster. Seeing or at least processing more in the same period of time. I've noticed the same thing after high speed driving training.

[MickAK]

You bring up a great point.

Using the timer to push yourself not only gets you to move faster, but eventually it resets your impression of what "feels" fast. It also seems to help you "see" faster. Seeing or at least processing more in the same period of time. I've noticed the same thing after high speed driving training.

Well, somewhat, but that's also what made me drop the timer. Personally, I could draw and hammer the single target at great speed (with reloads or without) but put a target 2 yards to the left and 3 yards closer or farther away and it was *creakkkk* to the next target. Clearly I could move that fast, index and pull that fast, but I wasn't able to engage the next target. That sucks. I was a 'slave to the timer' even though I trained that way before I ever had a timer. So I had to drop the timer to "see" what I needed to see and work through the problem presented.

The problem with dropping a timer is there's a long history in shooting of using terms like 'combat accuracy' and 'assessment speed' and 'make your hits' to excuse poor shooting, and without a standard that's where you are. We all know that certain levels of accuracy and speed are unreasonable in a practical situation, but without those metrics there it's more or less impossible to set a standard and stick to it. Past a certain level it becomes a personal standard and the only way to hold yourself to a personal standard is to remember what's at stake, your life and your families lives.

[Clusterfrack]

Well, somewhat, but that's also what made me drop the timer. Personally, I could draw and hammer the single target at great speed (with reloads or without) but put a target 2 yards to the left and 3 yards closer or farther away and it was *creakkkk* to the next target. Clearly I could move that fast, index and pull that fast, but I wasn't able to engage the next target. That sucks. I was a 'slave to the timer' even though I trained that way before I ever had a timer. So I had to drop the timer to "see" what I needed to see and work through the problem presented.


I'm not sure I understand your point, so correct me if I missed it.

If faster target transitions are the goal, I would set up a timed drill that helps get the eyes to the next target. I don't understand how not using a shot timer would help.

[MickAK]

I'm not sure I understand your point, so correct me if I missed it.

If faster target transitions are the goal, I would set up a timed drill that helps get the eyes to the next target. I don't understand how not using a shot timer would help.

I think you understand it fine, I just think you're one of the people that doesn't need to drop the timer to get to where you want to be. I could set up a timed drill to that target and perform fine, but it would be a performance. I would be tense and frantic. That doesn't jive with my experience with sudden violence. Dropping the timer helped me "see" the problem and execute effectively. Once that comes natural the timer comes back.

[Clusterfrack]

I think you understand it fine, I just think you're one of the people that doesn't need to drop the timer to get to where you want to be. I could set up a timed drill to that target and perform fine, but it would be a performance. I would be tense and frantic. That doesn't jive with my experience with sudden violence. Dropping the timer helped me "see" the problem and execute effectively. Once that comes natural the timer comes back.

Copy. Makes sense.

For what it's worth I do a lot of practice w/o a timer. Relaxation is so important, and that's worth practicing as an explicit goal.

[rob_s]

A key to using a shot timer, is to make the timer work for you, and not be a slave to the timer.

For example, when training with Rob Leatham and JJ on accuracy focused drills, they won’t even give you a time if your accuracy is below the specified standard.

Someone else I’ve trained with in the past does this. Maybe Kyle Lamb? I think it’s a perfect means of using a timer.

Many moons ago when I was first developing the carbine matches I started, I proposed any hits on a non threat would result in a DNF. In fact, IIRC our first iteration of these matches did have this rule in place. An FTN may have resulted in a DNF as well, I can’t recall and it’s been close to 20 years ago now. The main reason, by far, for hits on NT and FTNs was going to fast.

The point is, timers are a tool, and you use the tool or the tool uses you. IME the #1 reason most people don’t use a tool is because they are scared of it. The louder they squawk about not using the tool, the more scared they are.

[Zincwarrior]

Whooosh...

That's the sound of something going over your head.

"Paper? Whats paper? I don't see that app."
-Random Zillennial.

[mmc45414]

At the risk of stepping out of my lane here, I would point out that historically, LAPD officers were trained to shoot with a cadence not faster than 0.50, and get their hits.
Yes, but in her case just a tiny percentage of her shooting/training/practice has been done officially on LAPD ranges. I admit that much of the blazing fast stuff that is done by the cuties on the TTI videos is more about their hooters than their hits (after watching the videos multiple times I have eventually looked at some of the targets. Some...) but she in particular can shoot plenty fast. Some of the actresses can also shoot plenty fast, but most of those targets are pretty big and many of the hits are pretty sketchy, obviously they are being slaves to the timer. OTOH watching Robert Vogel run the same course on freshly painted plates shows him center punching them all while just absolutely flying. In the McBride shooting I am sure if her opponent had been shooting at her as fast as they could at that close range where untrained people can easily shoot you she woulda been blazing back :cool:.


While people latch onto better shooting performance with a 9mm, as a main justification over .40, I think the two largest benefits of 9mm are the caliber is easier than .40 on a shooter’s body and their guns. And the more shooting you do, the more pronounced those benefits are.
I admit that when I started a shift to 9mm part of me was wondering about how I would compare on some of the drills that are posted on the www, by shooters that are always doing so with 9mm. But now that I have shifted I really do not think about that so much, but I really like having one big box of pew that can run my striker guns, or my 1911, or an AR.

But sometimes I do think the enthusiast community has thrown .40 under the bus a bit. There are things to not like about it, but split times are probably only "longer" in the context of shooting competitively, pretty sure shooting at an assessment speed can be done with a .40. And many people carry the .40 in the woods when they are potentially going to encounter a 170 pound mountain lion, but carry a 9mm when they are potentially going to encounter a 270 pound dirtbag. And I sure enjoy less recoil more than I used to, and I think 9mm is best for my volume and plan to stick with it. But somebody that goes to an indoor range every few months is not going to develop the skill to shoot faster than they can with a .40, but those people would most benefit from shooting 9mm, but they are not doing the volume that will beat up their body and equipment. Now I think I am just rambling...

[Hot Cereal]

They are important but not relevant to the timer as a tool for improving skills because scenarios and FOF aren't skill builders. They are practical applications of skills as well as stress inoculation. I 100% completely disagree. FoF is 100% skill building. I have a marital arts background, ended up earning a couple different colors of belts Andy our don’t build actual fighting skills doing katas, practicing blocks. That’s your base fundamentals and then you learn how to apply them, improve them, be more efficient, more effective when you spar, which is controlled fighting, which is the same principle as FoF training. I can teach someone how to do a traffic stop, tell them how to approach a vehicle etc., but until they start actually doing it, they aren’t building on those base skills. FoF is building on base skills. In everything we do we should be skill building. From working the road, to working an invest, to rolling with a dirtbag, to shooting, FoF we should be evaluating a building our skills.


And many people carry the .40 in the woods when they are potentially going to encounter a 170 pound mountain lion, but carry a 9mm when they are potentially going to encounter a 270 pound dirtbag
Because any analysis of terminal ballistics is pure confirmation bias bullshit. Statistics can be manipulated to prove whatever you want to prove. “The .45 bullet expanded to .80 and penetrated 14 inches.” “Yea, but the 9mm expanded to .60 and penetrated 17 inches. That 9mm is better.” Or “The .45 expanded to .80 and penetrated to 14 inches. The 9mm only expanded to .60 and penetrated to 17 inches. That 9mm penetration is a bit deep, might over-penetrate. The 45 is better.” See how I spun the exact same data in two completely different ways? The huge wave of transition to 9mm away from 40 and 45 is due to money and nothing else. The ammunition costs less, training non-gun people to shoot it is easier, which means less range time required to pass the magical qualification course, with less rounds expended. Very few places are looking at their budget and opining “hmm 1000 rounds of 45 was costing us $330 and 1000 rounds of 9mm is only $200. Man we can get about 1500 rounds of 9mm for the same price!” No, they’re looking at it and saying “we just saved $130 per case of ammo.” The “performance improvement” of 9mm was just the propaganda used to sell it. 9mm has been doing just fine for years. 124gr Gold Dot has been around a long time. Golden Sabers have been around a long time. Firearms training was lacking and marksmanship skills were poor.

NYPD study on OIS encounters. With revolvers I think the rounds per hit was 2.8 rounds fired for every one hit and 5.something rounds fired per incident. In the 90s that statistic went to 12.something rounds fired per hit and a large increase in rounds fired per incident. Clint Smith has a rant video about it. YouTube it, you’ll get the details.

I found this video on YouTube that illustrates what I’m saying about the timer vs more realistic training.

https://youtu.be/uQVErDmaqo4

[Clusterfrack]

I 100% completely disagree. FoF is 100% skill building. I have a marital arts background, ended up earning a couple different colors of belts Andy our don’t build actual fighting skills doing katas, practicing blocks. That’s your base fundamentals and then you learn how to apply them, improve them, be more efficient, more effective when you spar, which is controlled fighting, which is the same principle as FoF training. I can teach someone how to do a traffic stop, tell them how to approach a vehicle etc., but until they start actually doing it, they aren’t building on those base skills. FoF is building on base skills. In everything we do we should be skill building. From working the road, to working an invest, to rolling with a dirtbag, to shooting, FoF we should be evaluating a building our skills.


Because any analysis of terminal ballistics is pure confirmation bias bullshit. Statistics can be manipulated to prove whatever you want to prove. “The .45 bullet expanded to .80 and penetrated 14 inches.” “Yea, but the 9mm expanded to .60 and penetrated 17 inches. That 9mm is better.” Or “The .45 expanded to .80 and penetrated to 14 inches. The 9mm only expanded to .60 and penetrated to 17 inches. That 9mm penetration is a bit deep, might over-penetrate. The 45 is better.” See how I spun the exact same data in two completely different ways? The huge wave of transition to 9mm away from 40 and 45 is due to money and nothing else. The ammunition costs less, training non-gun people to shoot it is easier, which means less range time required to pass the magical qualification course, with less rounds expended. Very few places are looking at their budget and opining “hmm 1000 rounds of 45 was costing us $330 and 1000 rounds of 9mm is only $200. Man we can get about 1500 rounds of 9mm for the same price!” No, they’re looking at it and saying “we just saved $130 per case of ammo.” The “performance improvement” of 9mm was just the propaganda used to sell it. 9mm has been doing just fine for years. 124gr Gold Dot has been around a long time. Golden Sabers have been around a long time. Firearms training was lacking and marksmanship skills were poor.

NYPD study on OIS encounters. With revolvers I think the rounds per hit was 2.8 rounds fired for every one hit and 5.something rounds fired per incident. In the 90s that statistic went to 12.something rounds fired per hit and a large increase in rounds fired per incident. Clint Smith has a rant video about it. YouTube it, you’ll get the details.

I found this video on YouTube that illustrates what I’m saying about the timer vs more realistic training.

https://youtu.be/uQVErDmaqo4

It all depends on how you train. In my experience with martial arts, katas and styles that emphasize them aren’t very effective. But a single day or weekend of FoF isn’t going to be that effective either, other than as a test of skills already built.

Similarly, I disagree with Pincus, and this wouldn’t be the first time. I’ve trained with him, and his approach is not one that works for me.

Build skills, including speed in the best ways possible, using the best tools. That includes a timer.

Tactics need to be trained as well, and that requires different tools.

Test application of skills.

Repeat.

[lwt16]

Personally, purchasing a shot timer has also made me more aware of misses and how to avoid missing at speed. Or in other words, it forced me to slow down to get hits at distance and be more accountable for rounds sent.

I will agree that the majority of my agency wouldn't benefit from a shot timer because, as a collective, there is not a firm grasp of marksmanship fundamentals nor is there an emphasis on training that. Not too long ago there was a shooting class one could sign up for and it was only held a couple of times. Drills were very Pat Mac-ish and required movement, support hand shooting, speed, etc.

I'm not ashamed to admit that I was sore for three days afterwards due to the running involved (performed to get the pulse up) and even though I was 50 at the time, I showed off and shot well. Couldn't move later that night, but I was too stubborn to let the younger kids best my times.

At the start, the instructor introduced the shot timer to the students and asked me if I had one that they could borrow as they only had one and wanted to run drills at the same time. I fished mine out and handed it to the other instructor. I would estimate that I was the only student that trained with a timer as the others had this "oh crap" look at the thought of being measured against one another. It caused a lot of stress to the shooters...and since we were using steel....misses caused even more stress as the rest watching knew whether or not you got your hit.

The drills were very accuracy focused. Your time really didn't matter unless you got 100 percent hits. There were no excuses......support hand only? You better get your hit. Movement involved? Better get your hit. Low times were only compared if you got all hits. Hits mattered more.

I think that is the way to go and in personal training I try to find my fastest speeds with "all blacks" on B8s. I get sad with fast times and one miss in the 8 ring. So I slow down a tenth and get the hits.

My job requires that.

Regards.

[Clusterfrack]

Here is a training group that uses shot timers, as well as randomly placed and hidden targets.
https://www.xrayalpha.com

I would very much like to train with them.


https://youtu.be/ju3R67NW-nA?t=421

[HCM]

An example of metronome training - a different take on a "timer"


https://youtu.be/d0rbURsZxP4

[Casual Friday]

It all depends on how you train. In my experience with martial arts, katas and styles that emphasize them aren’t very effective.

The best example of that, as you're aware, is when a traditional martial artist tries BJJ.

I've lost count of how many people, adults and kids, that came to the gym myself and my kids go to with black belts in one style of martial arts or another only to never show up again after realizing none of what they've been taught is useful once things go to the ground and a 107lb teenage girl ties them up like a pretzel.

[Wendell]

The Irony is when you succeed in "shooting the process" it feels slow but per the timer it's actually faster than when it feels fast. Because feelings lie.

As demonstrated here (starting at about 3:30):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS7dgN8iu6Y

[mmc45414]

Personally, purchasing a shot timer has also made me more aware of misses and how to avoid missing at speed. Or in other words, it forced me to slow down to get hits at distance and be more accountable for rounds sent.
Using one in practice also helped me develop a condition of knowing how slow you need to go at a given range to hit a given target. I know I can shoot faster if I am hitting a 10" plate instead of a 8" plate, and I damn well better be, it is almost 60% larger. In practice I can miss, so I can keep going faster until my hit probability suffers and back the truck up from there. But I only know this from doing it, over and over and over, with a timer.


I would estimate that I was the only student that trained with a timer as the others had this "oh crap" look at the thought of being measured against one another. It caused a lot of stress to the shooters...and since we were using steel....misses caused even more stress as the rest watching knew whether or not you got your hit.
I am not LE, but shoot with enough people that are and have had an opportunity to run the basic course that is the minimal (emphasis on minimal...) requirement in my state. I would speculate your Oh Crap folks were used to meeting a pass/fail requirement rather than competing, good on them for signing up for something a bit more strenuous! :cool:

[rob_s]

When I hosted Pat McNamara several years ago he brought out the timer, clicked the button, and after it went “beep” he said “do you know what that sound is?” Lots of serious answers from all the serious gundoods in attendance, and then he said “it’s the sound of a little bit of poop coming out”.

They say if you take a class and have at least one takeaway then it was a success.

Several years later, that’s my one takeaway.

But I probably say it once a week or more so it’s a good one.

[RJ]

Came across this 60-post thread from four years ago tangentially related to this topic.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21962-Speed-loss-between-square-range-and-real-life/page2&highlight=Pincus+fast+test

Quite a few useful nuggets there.

[JRV]

Not measuring with a timer is a lot like sex as a virgin.

You don’t know what you don’t know. You could think you’re awesome at it and have zero frame of reference.

For measuring efficiency with granular skills, for developing comparative metrics on how fast is “too fast,” to compare yourself against any quantifiable metric utilized by any trainer other than the occasional crusty dude marketing himself to like-minded crusty dudes and wanna-be crusty dudes...

Timer, timer, timer.

“I’ve never seen a timer in a gunfight!”

Well then, you might as well shoot into a berm with your eyes closed, because I’ve never had a cardboard silhouette, a steel plate, or a B8 target pop off rounds at me. Training isn’t gunfighting. Force-on-Force isn’t gunfighting. It’s all a skill-building and skill-vetting laboratory, and if you’re not going to treat it as such, then don’t bother—you’re just plinking.

[TCinVA]

When I see someone griping about using a timer, I'm inclined to think that they don't really understand what the tool is for. It's like someone telling me that this crescent wrench doesn't drive nails worth a damn. That person isn't going to work on my house.

There are some areas of instruction where I don't use a timer because the people I'm working with aren't ready for it yet. But it is a priority for me to get the timer involved as quickly as possible so that the people I'm teaching become accustomed to accomplishing useful tasks in the time frame that a typical defensive situation is going to last.

One of the great stressors in an emergency situation is time. It is an emergency precisely because we know something bad is going to happen in a short period of time if we don't do something about it. In every area of emergency response timers are used. Whether that's timing how quickly a fireman can get his gear on or timing how quickly a combat medic can stop a femoral bleed using a live pig, we use timers in one form or fashion in any place where we are training human beings to respond to a lethal exigency because they need to know how to manage the extremely limited amount of time they will have to prevent a bad outcome.

The idea that armed self defense should be an exception to that rule is fucking ridiculous.

Timers exist to reliably acquaint people with getting important work done within the time frame they are actually going to have to save their life.

Splits are useful as a diagnostic tool for looking at how you are managing your grip, trigger, and sights. Especially your grip...because a good grip will allow the gun to come back to more or less where it was before you fired the shot. Which means you can start working the trigger sooner. Which means that another accurate shot to the same place takes less time. Someone who can shoot sub 1/4 second aimed splits and hit something is someone who has a good grip, has learned to process what they are seeing on the sights at speed (you can see an acceptable sight picture in hundredths of a second) and is able to work the trigger good enough to get the required hit. These are all good things. The point of looking at splits is not to chase the lowest number possible, but to get quantifiable information about what is happening in those fractions of a second where the shot is happening and recovery from the shot is happening.

Speed is the product of efficiency. Efficiency is making the best use of limited resources...and when life is at stake, there is no more limited resource than TIME. People who are accustomed to working within the time they are going to have through repeated deliberate exposure are better able to work through a pre-trained process that gives the best chance at a desired outcome.

In medicine there is the golden hour, a MEASURED period of time where medical intervention has the best chance at saving a life. In self defense we don't get an hour, we get a golden few seconds to do something useful with a life saving tool.

"Tactics" is fine.

"Tactics" isn't shooting.

When it comes time to actually shoot, you have to shoot. That requires knowing how to actually make the bullet hole appear in the spot you want it within the time frame you've got to deliver it. You can't "tactics" that.

Nor can someone who isn't able to perform with the firearm suddenly manage to handle a rapidly evolving situation AND shoot the gun with any level of intelligence.

Proficiency in the use of the tool is the price of admission for being able to problem solve with the tool.

There isn't a debate here.

Practically everyone who is involved in the effort of training people to competency or proficiency with a defensive firearm uses timers in some form or fashion. This includes every major institutional academy in policing and the military.

I don't think Pincus does, but Pincus is fucked up and can't shoot. So his opinion is moot.