Not Flaring With Dillon Powder Measure

[mmc45414]

I am probably just being anti-establishment, but one thing I never liked was flaring with the powder measure. It just seems like consistently measuring powder is important enough that the measure should just have one job. A while back I migrated to using the Hornady Lock-N-Load measure and I like them and will continue to use them for rifle, but it seems like with high volume pistol loading I was experiencing problems with the thing returning, even after I added more symmetrical springs like I posted about here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36137-Hornady-Measure-Extra-Spring&p=869796&viewfull=1#post869796). But I really liked being able to flare with the Universal Case Expanding Die (https://leeprecision.com/universal-case-expanding-die.html) and since the Hornady measure wasn't using the return rod it was no problem to flare separately in station two and move the measure to station three. But it seems like no matter how much spring pressure I added the Hornady measure was more prone to getting dirty and sticking. The no-brainer would be to clean the thing more often, but...

I decided to go back to the Dillon measure and use station three for the powder check probe I got for rifles. But after only a couple hundred I remembered what I do not like, pulling the flare die out of the case is just clunky, and maybe I am just becoming a old girly man, but is at an awkward point in the cycle of the handle. And I think this is why there is a lot of spilled powder, because this happens while the shell plate is being rotated.

Then it occurred to me that if there is room for the bullet on top of the charge there would be room for the flare tool to do its thing after the case had been charged. So I shortened the flare tool to leave only what it needs to do a 9mm case and installed one of the rifle powder funnels that doesn't flare. But the rifle funnel was too short to actuate the measure. I looked at the chart to see if maybe there could be a longer rifle funnel, but then decided I had an extra 9mm funnel to experiment with. Used a cutoff wheel and then a sander and this is working great!

64701

I decided that with the mechanical reset of the measure I can live without the powder check.

Anyway, just throwing this out in case anybody else cares :cool:

[OfficeCat]

I'm not a fan of Dillon's powder die and expander system either, for the same reasons you mentioned. Too much of a clunk when the case pulled free of the expander, causing various disruptions. I switched over to a Lee Auto Drum powder measure in conjunction with a Lee expander die and am much happier.

[Hambo]

Video, man. I need to see this thing run.

[LittleLebowski]

I’m confused, I’m guessing this is for 9mm?

[mmc45414]

I’m confused, I’m guessing this is for 9mm?
Yes, 9mm, but I got the idea from the rifle funnels that are an inverse funnel that centers the case under the hole the powder is falling through. My first thought was to drill away the nipple that goes down in the case (that must be yanked out) and leave the drill tip angle up in the funnel. I tried to but the funnel is harder than woodpecker lips and the drill wouldn't scratch it. I decided the hole would be small enough to be centered enough so I cut the sucker off as pictured.


Video, man. I need to see this thing run.
Not sure you may remember any of my posts in the F.A.R.T. thread about how I am not that worried about having a dryer for my wet tumbled cases, blah, blah, blah, but it will be tomorrow at this time, at the soonest, before I can get any action video. But it is just like the thing is now, without the nasty clunk right in the middle of the upstroke of the handle. :cool:

[LittleLebowski]

I’m still confused, bear with me. I’ve no problem flaring for 147s, why isn’t your setup working?

[mmc45414]

I’m still confused, bear with me. I’ve no problem flaring for 147s, why isn’t your setup working?
The factory setup works, I wasn't having trouble flaring, just IMO it is literally (legitimate use of the word literally...) clunky. The flare funnel runs down into the sized case, probably almost 0.200", before it gets to the part that flares. Then on the way back down the powder measure follows along until it hits the bottom of it's travel with a clunk, and then it takes some force to continue to move the handle upward to pull the flared case down offa the flare funnel. Coincidently about the same time the indexing is indexing, causing the shell plate to surge and sometimes spill a little powder, and all this is when your arm (I am doing this standing) is in a funky spot with less leverage. If you have used the Dillon measure with one of the conical rifle funnels it is much smoother, that is what I was aspiring to replicate, and did. But the case leaves the charge/flare station without being charged, so I had to scheme a way to flare it in the next station.

I am probably just being a snowflake about this, but it really is nice and smooth now. I am also currently loading empties that have been sized/decaped on the APP (so I could swage the primer pockets on the APP) so loading is smooth as butter now (ETA: Explanation of why I sized on the APP is here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39391-New-Lee-Automatic-Processing-Press!&p=1092368&viewfull=1#post1092368)and here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39391-New-Lee-Automatic-Processing-Press!&p=1106088&viewfull=1#post1106088)). But if you are sizing on the press the force of extracting the case from sizing (I still have a size in the 650 in case something snuck past the APP, but typically it is doing little or nothing) then the force to pull it from the die is followed by the force to pull it from the flare funnel right at a time in the stroke you are trying to slow down and smoothly index the shell plate.

So maybe a point of clarification might be that this is not a fix, it is a tweak.

[EricP]

Did you get rid of the powder check station?

I replaced my Dillon powder funnel with SSI Alpha funnel. It’s shorter and doesn’t engage the case quite as much. It is still clunky, but not as bad as it was.

https://benstoegerproshop.com/ssi-alpha-dropper-powder-funnel-by-shooting-sports-innovations/

[SecondsCount]

I’m still confused, bear with me. I’ve no problem flaring for 147s, why isn’t your setup working?

Nothing against the OP but I don't have any issues or clunks with 9mm, 40, or 45ACP. For rifle, I have been playing with the auto drum as I feel it is more consistent than the Dillon measure, but it still isn't perfect.

[TiroFijo]

I've reloaded a lot of rounds into a lot of calibers with the Dillon setup, and never had any problems.

[mmc45414]

Did you get rid of the powder check station?
Yes, I did. I figure if the Dillon measure is mechanically being reset the potential for a squib is almost none, and with the indexing on the 650 the potential for a double charge is almost none, and with the drop of Clays a double would be spilling over. I still plan to use the powder check on rifle cases that I cannot see down into.


I replaced my Dillon powder funnel with SSI Alpha funnel. It’s shorter and doesn’t engage the case quite as much. It is still clunky, but not as bad as it was.
I had seen those and had contemplated that angle. (ETA: I was at the beginning of a run of loading 3k and decided since I had three F funnels on hand I could butcher one of them and see how it worked rather than order something and wait)


Nothing against the OP but I don't have any issues or clunks with 9mm, 40, or 45ACP.
I have been using the Lee dies, and one reason people like them is because they are alleged to size a little extra small. The rounds have been utterly reliable, but I wonder if they might be holding onto the powder funnel just a little extra tight?


For rifle, I have been playing with the auto drum as I feel it is more consistent than the Dillon measure, but it still isn't perfect.
For rifle I have been using the Hornady measure, and they have been giving pretty good drops, even with Varget. And 223 loads with Varget is another thing that started me deviating from the Dillon measures, I got some rounds that I presumed bridged in the funnel, and this is also why I started using the powder check as well (I changed to the 650 in 2016, it wasn't an option on the 550s I had before then).


I've reloaded a lot of rounds into a lot of calibers with the Dillon setup, and never had any problems.
Yeah, I probably should reiterate that this is a tweak that makes the operation smoother, not fixing a problem that makes the loader or the rounds not function. I got my first 550 in 1984 and have loaded 380, 9mm(lots), 40(lots), 38, 357, 45(lots), 44, 223 and 300BO. The only real Dillon problem I ever had was dropping that Varget through the Dillon measure on the 550 when the powder check wasn't a potential option, and that was probably just a bad idea in the first place. But I have never enjoyed the way the flaring works, and this is just chasing an alternative setup that smoothed things out.

[OfficeCat]

I have been using the Lee dies, and one reason people like them is because they are alleged to size a little extra small. The rounds have been utterly reliable, but I wonder if they might be holding onto the powder funnel just a little extra tight?

You may be right. I posted earlier in the thread that I had experienced similar issues and resolved them with a switch to a Lee expander die and powder measure. I was also using Lee sizing dies and had this issue with both 9mm and 40.

[willie]

Expander plugs have two sections. One flares the case mouth. The other enters the case and slightly expands a front section of the case interior to more easily accept a bullet. The op removed this section. Cast bullet shooters might fret that the case will now size down and reduce bullet diameter. But let's try to figure out why he observed a noticeable effort to remove the expander from the case. Perhaps his size die is undersized and is excessively reducing the diameter of the case. This means that an expander would be entering a case that is now very much reduced in diameter. Greater effort would be required to remove it. Hand loaders experiment. The op did and found a workable solution.

[rdtompki]

The OP mentions his LNL: I struggled to get the LNL powder measure with expander feature to work reliably and at that point, several years ago, I bought a 1050. I've never had a problem with my powder drops on the 1050 and that's after 150K rounds, most with a Mark VII. I did initially find that the MisterBullet expander would stick in the case, but I worked through that.

[mmc45414]

I came here to snag a reference for a similar discussion elsewhere and thought I would make a quick necro post... :cool:

I ended up getting the bullet feeder (and eventually the 1100) so I lost the station that I was flaring with and was (reluctantly) forced to discontinue this process, but damn that bullet feeder is nice! Also, the MBF provided powder funnel was not all that nice, and I got an Armanov funnel and it is pretty nice.

But the main thing I wanted to mention is that it seems that folks that are most bothered by the sticky powder funnel extraction are wet tumbling (I am), and it does not leave any dust behind like dry tumbling does. I sure love my shiny wet tumbled brass, but it is probably also sticky! I have been using the tribe recommended Wash & Wax soap, but one thing I am now trying is not rinsing it so thoroughly, and it may be helping.

[Spartan1980]

I came here to snag a reference for a similar discussion elsewhere and thought I would make a quick necro post... :cool:

I ended up getting the bullet feeder (and eventually the 1100) so I lost the station that I was flaring with and was (reluctantly) forced to discontinue this process, but damn that bullet feeder is nice! Also, the MBF provided powder funnel was not all that nice, and I got an Armanov funnel and it is pretty nice.

But the main thing I wanted to mention is that it seems that folks that are most bothered by the sticky powder funnel extraction are wet tumbling (I am), and it does not leave any dust behind like dry tumbling does. I sure love my shiny wet tumbled brass, but it is probably also sticky! I have been using the tribe recommended Wash & Wax soap, but one thing I am now trying is not rinsing it so thoroughly, and it may be helping.

Wet tumbler here too. I've had some times I thought I was going to break my press or shellplate, the expander stuck so bad. I'm utterly amazed that I haven't at least bent my 9, 40 & 45 shell plates. I even sent all of my funnels out and had them TIN coated. That did help, quite a bit actually, but the main problem remains.

Your idea was a good one. I went to a Dillon 5.56 die specifically for that little carbide expander ball as I was pulling the shoulder back out. Immediately fixed that issue. Lubing case necks is a PITA and it defeats the purpose of a progressive press and it's production capacity. I'm really surprised that Dillon hasn't incorporated their rifle expander ball into their powder funnels. Sure, it would require more machining but I'd sure as hell pay for one.

[358156hp]

Are you still using the Dillon powder measure?

Uniquetek offers powder measure funnels in different configurations for both Hornady and Dillon powder measures. They're still sticky on the totally clean stainless tumbled brass.

[willie]

Spraying with Hornady 1 Shot will reduce or eliminate sticking.

[WDR]

Spraying with Hornady 1 Shot will reduce or eliminate sticking.

I too noticed brass sticking more after wet tumbling. Using some sort of lube like One Shot, or car wash/wax in the brass does help. This problem can also be caused by a dirty powder funnel/expander... or a damaged one. A small scratch from dirty brass starts grabbing brass pretty quickly, and once built up, will cause sticking on the down stroke. JB bore compound on a patch, and polishing the expander helps. I've also had that happen in a sizing die (Lee .223) and I ended up polishing the hell out of it with JB on a tight patch over an AR-15 chamber brush.

Lyman "M" dies can be helpful... and there is a company or two that makes a powder through expander with an M die type step built in.

[358156hp]

Spraying with Hornady 1 Shot will reduce or eliminate sticking.

I'm thinking about using Reddings graphite based neck lube kit. It's super fine graphite applied by dipping the case neck in a container of tiny ceramic beads before sizing. I can't see a major issue since lots of people are still using case lube to size. This should also make taper crimping easier, and more uniform.

[358156hp]

I too noticed brass sticking more after wet tumbling. Using some sort of lube like One Shot, or car wash/wax in the brass does help. This problem can also be caused by a dirty powder funnel/expander... or a damaged one. A small scratch from dirty brass starts grabbing brass pretty quickly, and once built up, will cause sticking on the down stroke. JB bore compound on a patch, and polishing the expander helps. I've also had that happen in a sizing die (Lee .223) and I ended up polishing the hell out of it with JB on a tight patch over an AR-15 chamber brush.

Lyman "M" dies can be helpful... and there is a company or two that makes a powder through expander with an M die type step built in.

I just replaced my original Dillon powder funnel because of this.Since I'm wet tumbling anymore I don't think this issue will reappear, plus my new powder funnel is hardened, Dillons wasn't.

[SecondsCount]

I don't wet tumble, but sometimes I will let extra dirty brass soak in hot water with a little lemishine, and rinse in clean water. After that, I put it in the dry tumbler to put some polish back on the brass and make it slicker.

[willie]

The Redding lube will work great.

[mmc45414]

Reviewing this topic makes me also think the Armanov funnel might be helping me, because the nipple portion that gets shoved into and drug out of the case is much shorter (just random pics I found):

100719

[mizer67]

I started wet tumbling a while back and the squeaky clean, wet tumbled brass sticks more than dry tumbled brass.

I use Armor All Wash N' Wax in the wet mixture prior to sizing and One Shot as well once the brass is dry.

I don't get any more sticking using this method than with dry tumbling.

[Pistol Pete 10]

I am probably just being anti-establishment, but one thing I never liked was flaring with the powder measure. It just seems like consistently measuring powder is important enough that the measure should just have one job. A while back I migrated to using the Hornady Lock-N-Load measure and I like them and will continue to use them for rifle, but it seems like with high volume pistol loading I was experiencing problems with the thing returning, even after I added more symmetrical springs like I posted about here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36137-Hornady-Measure-Extra-Spring&p=869796&viewfull=1#post869796). But I really liked being able to flare with the Universal Case Expanding Die (https://leeprecision.com/universal-case-expanding-die.html) and since the Hornady measure wasn't using the return rod it was no problem to flare separately in station two and move the measure to station three. But it seems like no matter how much spring pressure I added the Hornady measure was more prone to getting dirty and sticking. The no-brainer would be to clean the thing more often, but...

I decided to go back to the Dillon measure and use station three for the powder check probe I got for rifles. But after only a couple hundred I remembered what I do not like, pulling the flare die out of the case is just clunky, and maybe I am just becoming a old girly man, but is at an awkward point in the cycle of the handle. And I think this is why there is a lot of spilled powder, because this happens while the shell plate is being rotated.

Then it occurred to me that if there is room for the bullet on top of the charge there would be room for the flare tool to do its thing after the case had been charged. So I shortened the flare tool to leave only what it needs to do a 9mm case and installed one of the rifle powder funnels that doesn't flare. But the rifle funnel was too short to actuate the measure. I looked at the chart to see if maybe there could be a longer rifle funnel, but then decided I had an extra 9mm funnel to experiment with. Used a cutoff wheel and then a sander and this is working great!

64701

I decided that with the mechanical reset of the measure I can live without the powder check.

Anyway, just throwing this out in case anybody else cares :cool:

My dillon seems to work just fine. Load .44, 9MM and .38. I don't use lube as that would kind of defeat the purpose of a progressive.
I don't wet tumble as that also seems to slow things down.

[mmc45414]

My dillon seems to work just fine.

Yeah, like I have reiterated, Dillons work just fine. :cool:

[Nat Lambeth]

I changed the swaging die on my 1050 for a Lee flaring die. I removed the guts from the Lee flaring die and replaced them with NOE Expander. They come in any diameter you can want. I use a Double Alpha expander in my Dillon powder measure. It cured most of my 9mm, 38/357, 40, and 45 issues with the powder measure sticking. I put my Double alpha expanders into my lathe and polished both the inside and outside with 800 grit abrasive. I am runing a Mark VII autodrive. I have just purchased FW Arms Prime Time, primer systems for my machines. I will be moving over from Dillon OEM toolheads to Fast Brass CNC toolheads. The smoother you can make a 1050 run, the less problems you will have and the faster you can load. I am using a Fowler Bullet Dropper without issue.
Nat Lambeth

[mmc45414]

I changed the swaging die on my 1050 for a Lee flaring die. I removed the guts from the Lee flaring die and replaced them with NOE Expander. They come in any diameter you can want.
I just learned of these things over on Enos (was that you?...) and they look interesting. Will be a few months before I am back to 9mm (will be working on 223 for a while) then I intend to try them. And I even already have the Lee flare die :cool:

[Nat Lambeth]

I just learned of these things over on Enos (was that you?...) and they look interesting. Will be a few months before I am back to 9mm (will be working on 223 for a while) then I intend to try them. And I even already have the Lee flare die :cool:

I was over there less than 3 days. One of their over vigilent moderators jumped my back side. I did not want to get is pissing match and told them to just remove me from their site as I would not be posting their anymore. I only made one post in their reloading forum inquiring about a CNC Toolhead for a Dillon 1050. I put the same post on this forum. I have since found a source for the CNC Toolheads for Dillon 1050/1100. I have over 55 years of shooting, reloading, and gunsmith experience plus 34 years in Lawenforcement. I now am a licensed 007 Gun Manufacture and 006 Ammunition Manufacture. I doubt there are many other folks out there with more Dillon reloading experience than myself. I have 5 Dillon presses two with Mark VII auto drives.
So far the folks here have been very friendly and accomodating. I hope to offend no one and learn as much as possible Nat Lambeth
Custom Guns and Ammunition, LLC

[mmc45414]

I just thought it was funny, since I had never heard of the NOE expanders, until seeing them mention twice in the same week!


I have since found a source for the CNC Toolheads for Dillon 1050/1100.
Yeah, I think I found those a few weeks after I broke down and bought a second tool head, darn it...
Not like I need it, but they are pretty much the same price and it just seems goofy to me to not have anything over the priming station. I like the idea of simply having a second sizing die keeping everything aligned, but oh well...
I know there are alternatives that fit the hole in the Dillon product, maybe someday I will investigate that.


So far the folks here have been very friendly and accommodating. I hope to offend no one and learn as much as possible
Yup, this is the one of the few gun related www places where the discourse stays pretty solid and sane. If somebody is being a butthead they are told they are being a butthead, by somebody not being a butthead. So far it seems to work out pretty good... :cool: