DA/SA in a recent class...

[MattyD380]

Took an advanced concealed carry class this weekend, taught by Bob Jewell in Sharonville OH (just north of Cincinnati). While many PFers are, no doubt, much more advanced, I found the legal and mindset-related insights invaluable, as well as the range experience. Mr. Jewell was thorough, insightful and extremely knowledgeable, while making the class fun and encouraging. If you're somewhere between a noob and... well, a lot of you probably reading this... I feel like it'd be worth your time. Especially if you're near Cincinnati.

In any case...

Not surprisingly, I was the only one with a DA/SA pistol--Sig P239 in .357 Sig. Normally it'd be 9mm, but I stocked up on .357 Sig when it was still cheap, early Covid. To be clear, I'd never actually drawn and fired a gun from AIWB until today. Which is hard to believe. But ranges around here don't allow it.

64561

With the recent thread on the merits/failings of DA/SA and various other modes of action, I felt like it was worth sharing my experience. Long story short: I feel like I shot fine, nor did I feel DA/SA was hindrance to achieving serviceable results. My averages for 6 timed draws/shots were under 3 seconds. My groups were pretty tight and I found it easy to hit a 5 X 8 index card at 5 yards. Moved back to 7 and 10, no problems. Shot at a smaller card (3 x 5?), no problems. The only one I missed, I think, was the very first shot I took. Followup shots in SA grouped nicely with the DAs.

Now, I realize that's not blisteringly fast or particularly impressive to many of you. I'll also acknowledge that when I really pushed myself to go fast on the first shot, my accuracy went down. Got a few draws/shots under 2 sec (ones that didn't count against the 6), but I missed the card; I can't yet combine the arm extension with the trigger pull. It's two separate actions, at this point.

So, I'll say that--for me and likely for most--DA is probably a limiting factor to speed on the draw shot. Especially when we're talking stock triggers. I'd venture to say I was more experienced (in terms of just shooting for accuracy) than the others in the class, so my draw-&-shoot results were still better--and that's just on the first shot. In SA, I feel like I had a clear advantage as far as shot placement vs. the other shooters, all of whom had SFA guns. Maybe that's just because I was a more experienced shooter, overall? Either way, I think the SA part of a DA/SA system is part of what makes it... good. You get a 1911 after the first shot.

All that said, I believe the most important benefits of DA/SA lie outside the realm of speed. The two times I've drawn my gun under duress, it was more of a "Oh shit, what should I do?" situation than just autonomously pumping rounds into a threat. On that point, Bob (the instructor) had an interesting perspective on competitive shooting: it's not the kind of muscle memory you necessarily want, in SD situations. There are decisions to made. And, to that end, I feel like DA/SA is a benefit; though certainly not a requirement. Like all things, there are pros and cons. Personally, I like the pros that come along with DA/SA. And the cons... well, it's a little slower on the first shot.

As far as DA/SA for novice shooters...

Thinking about the students in the class (I mean, there were only 4; consider these conclusions highly "qualitative"), I can surmise that pulling a long, 10+lb trigger would have been foreign to them. But after experiencing it a few times, I hypothesize that it wouldn't have a had a big impact on overall draw/shoot results. Maybe I'm wrong? Hell, maybe it would have been better? The one guy with a Smith SD9 was rushing things and spraying every round to the left. Could a heavier trigger have helped him slow down out of the holster? Regardless, a crisp SA trigger after the draw shot is probably more innately intuitive for all humans to shoot. Considering the "total package," I still think DA/SA gets unfairly lambasted as some barbarous anachronism that's only suitable for hipsters and Navy SEALS. Okay... off the soapbox.

Also, my P239 had no issues. Strangely, the guy with a Gen 5 G19 was having all kinds of issues, which surprised me. The guy with Smith SD9 had a few FTFeeds, and the gal with the VP9 had zero issues. She struggled at first, but I think she actually had the fastest time on target with one of her shots, toward the end.

So... if this is all beneath you, my apologies. But hopefully it's helpful/interesting/insightful at some level--to some people--especially in light of the recent discussion on DA/SA. Short of that... at least there's a cool picture of a Sig with Nill grips. Peace.

[loper77]

I think your instructor was spot on. A .15 split isn't always a good thing.

[Wise_A]

I would say you are correct. Look at HCM's on the H&K LEM trigger being a "people-management" trigger.

A common drill for this sort of thing is to shoot a target under time. At a certain point, an instructor or observer will shine a light or a laser on the target. The goal is to shoot fast, but stop firing as soon as the light comes on.

[Sammy1]

Nice write up, than you.

[RJ]

Great perspective and sounds like a good useful class. Thanks for sharing.

[Cory]

I don't think this is beneath any of us. Learning is awesome.

If you haven't been able to draw and shoot, I really recommend getting to a match of some kind. While immediately drawing and shooting is a part of matches, it's a small part. The occassional match isn't going to ingrain negative habits of blazing speeds that get you in a legal battle unless you're focusing on nothing but that. What it will do is give you some stress, make you think a little with a gun in your hand, and help you see what you're doing more.

If your local ranges don't allow drawing (mine don't either) find a USPSA match. They will allow drawing there. Even if you go strong side carry, there are benefits.

[CraigS]

I agree w/ Cory. I started competing in local IDPA 3 years ago. Just shot a match yesterday. The difference between just shooting at stationary paper is unbelievable. They come up w/ lots of different scenarios. Yesterday we had one stage w/ 7 targets roughly along a 30 ft line but at different distances. Plastic barrels at each end of the line. Used 3 mags w/ 6 rounds in each. One in the gun and one on each barrel. Basically you could shoot any way you wanted, (shoot on the move), (move, stop, and shoot, move) but you had to get to the other end of the line for your reload. Another stage had you sitting at a table, gun loaded and on the table. Had to shoot the first three targets while seated. Then get up and move to shoot the last 4 targets, two of which were behind barrels so you couldn't see them w/o moving. The variety is endless. The shooters are also widely ranging. I am 72 shooting a Beretta 92. There were to other old guys. One shooting his carry gun, a Sig 365 from an IWB holster. The other, a super long, long time shooter but who was heavily rear ended in his car 2 yrs ago. He now gets around w/ one of those wheeled walkers, and a cane. His perseverance to be there and compete was an inspiration.

[Hot Cereal]

This obsession with blazing fast draw to shot times is a product of the YouTube Kommando craze. Being fluid and accurate is more important than speed. Life isn’t a John Wick movie. Clint Smith doesn’t even know what a shot timer is and that guy knows a thing or two. It sounds like you’re doing fine. Being John Wick fast isn’t as big a deal as the YouTube Kommandos would have you believe.

DA/SA hate is based in lack of fundamentals, poor training, and/or myopic “Glock is the way” view points. I’m always wary of taking the words of XYZ operator as gospel when it comes to equipment selection. Many times their viewpoints are tainted because their experience is only with X weapons, equipment etc. due to administrative not operational decisions.

In someways using a fully cocked striker fired pistol that’s tucked inside the waistband creates a fairly hypocritical situational. What are we always told- don’t rely on mechanical safety devices, they can fail. Then, we toss that ideology aside and shove a loaded cocked and “semi-unlocked” SA striker fired gun in our pants with the muzzle pointed at important bits. I’m guilty of it. Getting a DA pistol to fire on its own without action manipulation is pretty difficult. Even if the safeties all fail, it’s difficult for the hammer to cock and release its self. I suppose this ideology is a paradox of sorts.

The 5906 I just picked up has seriously the best trigger in any ‘combat intended’ pistol I’ve ever shot. The SA reset is ridiculously short, crisp, defined and the DA pull is smooth, not too heavy and clean. Breaks at the same point as the SA pull. Why people bitch about these guns I have no idea.

[M2CattleCo]

P239s are awesome and their discontinuation is proof that Sig is retarded.

[MVS]

As to your point of DA/SA being a hindrance, I wouldn't say it is a hindrance to the trained. I have been helping with CPL classes this year. We actually see a wide range of people these days. From those who have never held a gun before, to those who "have been shooting my whole life". I was seeing one or two DA/SA guns per class and most of the time the people using them were shooting two distinct groups, one containing the holes from the DA first shots, one containing holes from their SA second shots. I tell them what to work on, but I figure most won't pursue it and unfortunately it is mostly beyond the scope of the class. I am glad to hear this wasn't the case for you.

[Zincwarrior]

One comrade remarked that the DA shot forced him to stop and focus on that initial shot, then he could do follow ups or was in the proper mindset.

Practice drawing and reloading 50 times I. Dry fire before your match. Don't try to learn new skills in a stage.

[MattyD380]

Thanks, guys. Appreciate the thoughts. Definitely glad I took the class. Instructor was great and I'd recommend it anyone.

Practice drawing from concealment (and actually shooting) was valuable experience for sure. Going through the motions now, it feels... more natural. I'd like to take a more high-volume shooting course next year.

I have actually done a few competitions. So I did have some experience getting that first DA shot on target. But it's always been drawing from OWB or off a table. I guess I never really asked, but I just assumed drawing from AIWB would have been a no-go. But maybe not. I'll say I don't really compete "to win"... I usually use my carry guns (most of which are DA/SA). I guess I enjoy shooting more for accuracy, than raw speed. Used my P239 (in 9mm) last time. Had good results with it.

[GJM]

Most of us are wired to be more comfortable either shooting fast or shooting accurately, but not both. If you enjoy accuracy, I would suggest you want to learn to shoot fast if you want to progress as a shooter. If you’re wired to shoot fast, the opposite applies.

[MattyD380]

The 5906 I just picked up has seriously the best trigger in any ‘combat intended’ pistol I’ve ever shot. The SA reset is ridiculously short, crisp, defined and the DA pull is smooth, not too heavy and clean. Breaks at the same point as the SA pull. Why people bitch about these guns I have no idea.

Yeah, man. I'm with you. The 3d gens are great--and I agree, they may have the best all-around DA/SA setup. Though I've always found Sigs to be very good.

I have a 6904. I think it probably has the best DA pull of all my DA/SA guns. It's smooth and consistent, zero stacking, no overtravel. The sights just sit there when the hammer falls. The SA is also nice... and yeah, the reset is legit.

For my first few competitions, I used my PX4CC. The SA pull on that gun is fantastic, but I found myself missing most of DA shots. Next competition I did, the PX4 was in the shop getting sights or something... so I used the 6904 (mainly because I had enough mags for it). I tell ya... the difference in DA accuracy was night and day. I think I hit just about every plate off the draw. Maybe it was just because I was getting better? But still--I find it more of a challenge to keep the sights aligned with the PX4 on DA.

In any case, yeah. The third gens were/are great shooting guns. A 5906 is on my list--preferably one with the big adjustable sights.

[MattyD380]

Most of us are wired to be more comfortable either shooting fast or shooting accurately, but not both. If you enjoy accuracy, I would suggest you want to learn to shoot fast if you want to progress as a shooter. If you’re wired to shoot fast, the opposite applies.

Interesting perspective. Haven't heard that before. But makes sense.

[Hot Cereal]

I guess I enjoy shooting more for accuracy, than raw speed. Used my P239 (in 9mm) last time. Had good results with it. Stick with shooting for accuracy. All these kommandos that have Instagram or YouTube accounts with lots of followers, those guys are no doubt shooting with blazing speed and accuracy, but they’re doing it on a known course of fire with static targets that don’t move or shoot back. They are treating it like a USPSA match, obsessing over time, looking cool, being bougie and calling it ‘standards’. Train yourself to shoot accurately. If you can, take a FoF class that utilizes actual sim guns, not airsoft, but that’ll do if you can’t find sim guns. You’ll soon learn that hits really do count and tactics greatly outweigh raw speed. Train smart and be safe man.


Yeah, man. I'm with you. The 3d gens are great--and I agree, they may have the best all-around DA/SA setup. Though I've always found Sigs to be very good.

I have a 6904. I think it probably has the best DA pull of all my DA/SA guns. It's smooth and consistent, zero stacking, no overtravel. The sights just sit there when the hammer falls. The SA is also nice... and yeah, the reset is legit...

In any case, yeah. The third gens were/are great shooting guns.

Smith needs to bring some of the models back. They make revolvers and 1911s that sell for over a grand. If they offered a 5906 with integrated picatinny rail like the Mexican SF and CHP 4006 pistols I think people would drop over a grand for them. When I see beat up police trade in 3rd gens going for $800 on Gun Broker, there is a market.

[GJM]

Almost anyone can shoot accurately, without time pressure. Almost anyone can shoot fast, without accuracy pressure. The key, whether you compete or shoot living things is to be able to shoot accurately as fast as possible.

So how do you learn to shoot accurately at a relevant speed — you start by figuring out whether your weakness is speed or accuracy, and focus on that.

[hufnagel]

I would say you are correct. Look at HCM's on the H&K LEM trigger being a "people-management" trigger.

A common drill for this sort of thing is to shoot a target under time. At a certain point, an instructor or observer will shine a light or a laser on the target. The goal is to shoot fast, but stop firing as soon as the light comes on.

see sig. :D

[jeep45238]

239's are awesome.

Come out to the same place on Tuesday (22nd) and shoot an IDPA match with us. And if you're at the gun counter on the weekends, I work there - only guy named Mike.

[MattyD380]

239's are awesome.

Come out to the same place on Tuesday (22nd) and shoot an IDPA match with us. And if you're at the gun counter on the weekends, I work there - only guy named Mike.

Cool, man. Thanks for the invite. I might just do that. And I'll be sure to say hey next time I'm up there on a weekend.

And yes, P239s are awesome. They always get nailed for capacity... people seem to forget how good they shoot. In a package you can still easily carry.

[Lon]

239's are awesome.

Come out to the same place on Tuesday (22nd) and shoot an IDPA match with us. And if you're at the gun counter on the weekends, I work there - only guy named Mike.

What range?

And I carried a DA/SA gun for most of my career. Never felt handicapped. But I put the time and effort in so it was a non issue.

[MattyD380]

What range?

And I carried a DA/SA gun for most of my career. Never felt handicapped. But I put the time and effort in so it was a non issue.

Target World. Right? That's where I was...

[MattyD380]

Stick with shooting for accuracy. All these kommandos that have Instagram or YouTube accounts with lots of followers, those guys are no doubt shooting with blazing speed and accuracy, but they’re doing it on a known course of fire with static targets that don’t move or shoot back. They are treating it like a USPSA match, obsessing over time, looking cool, being bougie and calling it ‘standards’. Train yourself to shoot accurately. If you can, take a FoF class that utilizes actual sim guns, not airsoft, but that’ll do if you can’t find sim guns. You’ll soon learn that hits really do count and tactics greatly outweigh raw speed. Train smart and be safe man.



Smith needs to bring some of the models back. They make revolvers and 1911s that sell for over a grand. If they offered a 5906 with integrated picatinny rail like the Mexican SF and CHP 4006 pistols I think people would drop over a grand for them. When I see beat up police trade in 3rd gens going for $800 on Gun Broker, there is a market.

I just... hate missing. I like to see tight groups and ragged holes. I guess that always seemed more useful than hitting targets AFAP. But hey--it's all part of the equation.

And I agree you with on the 3rd gens. They'd be expensive and boutique-y, but I think people would buy them. Especially with modern features like G10 grips and melonite finishes, etc. Something like a "4th gen."

I'd love to see a new version of the 69XX or even kind of a retro-modern model 39.

[jeep45238]

Cool, man. Thanks for the invite. I might just do that. And I'll be sure to say hey next time I'm up there on a weekend.

And yes, P239s are awesome. They always get nailed for capacity... people seem to forget how good they shoot. In a package you can still easily carry.


http://www.idpamatchsignup.com/osm_match_signup.aspx - 22nd at Targetworld :-) Online registration ahead of time helps make sure the match happens, as the last was cut out since they had less than 10 sign up.


What range?

And I carried a DA/SA gun for most of my career. Never felt handicapped. But I put the time and effort in so it was a non issue.

Target World, Cincinnati. It's my hobby/debt reduction money.

[MattyD380]

http://www.idpamatchsignup.com/osm_match_signup.aspx - 22nd at Targetworld :-) Online registration ahead of time helps make sure the match happens, as the last was cut out since they had less than 10 sign up.



Target World, Cincinnati. It's my hobby/debt reduction money.

Cool, thanks. About how many rounds are we talkin? I've never done IDPA...

[jeep45238]

Cool, thanks. About how many rounds are we talkin? I've never done IDPA...

If you bring 100 rounds you'll have plenty left over. 3 mags will do the job just fine. I'm pretty sure that most bring about 50 rounds and a handful of loose rounds and shoot the matches just fine.

[MattyD380]

If you bring 100 rounds you'll have plenty left over. 3 mags will do the job just fine. I'm pretty sure that most bring about 50 rounds and a handful of loose rounds and shoot the matches just fine.

Nice! I can swing that. Just signed up. 6:30, right?

[jeep45238]

Nice! I can swing that. Just signed up. 6:30, right?

Yup. If you can make it at 6:15 for a intro/run through of the game before hand, or meet the other folks, it's a good use of 15 minutes.

[MattyD380]

Yup. If you can make it at 6:15 for a intro/run through of the game before hand, or meet the other folks, it's a good use of 15 minutes.

Cool. I'll plan on that. Thanks again!

[guitarsampsandguns]

Sig p239's are awesome! I finally got one in 9mm. It took me a while to find one in good condition at a reasonable price.

Is would still be cool if Sig released a new version that uses p365 mags. Likewise a P938 that uses P365 magazines. Imagine having P365, p239, and p938 that used the same magazines.

[RJ]

Stick with shooting for accuracy. All these kommandos that have Instagram or YouTube accounts with lots of followers, those guys are no doubt shooting with blazing speed and accuracy, but they’re doing it on a known course of fire with static targets that don’t move or shoot back. They are treating it like a USPSA match, obsessing over time, looking cool, being bougie and calling it ‘standards’. Train yourself to shoot accurately. If you can, take a FoF class that utilizes actual sim guns, not airsoft, but that’ll do if you can’t find sim guns. You’ll soon learn that hits really do count and tactics greatly outweigh raw speed. Train smart and be safe man.



Just curious, have you ever shot a USPSA match?

[TCinVA]

With a DA/SA gun, you are always going to need more discipline when firing that first shot. Even with a very nice DA trigger like the one you can get on a Langdon Beretta, you will need extra care on that DA shot.

I use timers a lot because defending oneself with a firearm is a limited time opportunity. There is always a timer running when you are playing for blood, whether that's an animal who isn't just going to stand there all day and let you shoot it or a dude who is trying to cut your head off and put it on a stick. It is useful to become comfortable accomplishing useful things within the timeframe a fight is going to last.

Because I use timers, I can quantify what I'm doing.

I've found that with the good DA trigger on my LTT gun, I'm going to need to press the trigger at about a .35 to .4 second rate to ensure the shot goes where it is supposed to. In other words, I need to take about an extra tenth of a second to help ensure I keep the trigger's movement to the rear at a consistent speed. The temptation is to accelerate through the last portion of the trigger press which results in command detonation and negates any good you were doing in the shot process up to that point.

Behind the gun it feels really slow, but it is only slower by truly insignificant fractions of a second. Another benefit of the timer is that you can put objective measure to how something "feels" and find out that your feelings are bullshit and should be ignored.

After the first shot, the SA trigger is much more forgiving, requiring nowhere near as much discipline in the shot process to get a good hit. The last time I shot my LTT gun I was hitting a 5" circle at 25 yards while essentially beating the shit out of the trigger in SA mode. The SA trigger is actually a tad too light for my taste in the gun as it sits, so I'll be putting in a heavier hammer spring.

So if you are a trained shooter who has figured out that shooting is about the discipline of observing the shot process regardless of what else is going on, a DA/SA gun will take a little getting used to but you'll be fine.

The problem is "trained shooter who understands the discipline of shooting" describes maybe .5% of the human beings on this rock who are toting a handgun. Being charitable, it might be 1% of people in a uniform who are toting a handgun as a piece of issued equipment.

It is difficult to teach people how to shoot a DA/SA gun because it is difficult to get people to actually understand that they have to grip the gun, see the sights, and manage the trigger when there is one trigger press to deal with. So difficult, in fact, that almost nobody carrying a handgun as a defensive implement is anywhere near being truly proficient with it.

Training in the institutions is oriented around getting people to pass a test which is a baseline for a legal standard of competence with a handgun. That standard is a self-licking lollipop due to the legal system. Virginia's DCJS standards are bad, but judges and lawyers don't know that because judges and lawyers don't know anything about shooting handguns. So the judges and lawyers look at the standards set by DCJS and figure those must be a good measure. And the DCJS standards stay bad because it's a "proven legal standard".

In truth, those standards are what they are so that police departments can spend as little as possible on training and ammunition.

The standards are really nothing more than a way of, as Greg Ellifritz puts it, transferring liability from the agency to the individual officer. The fact that said officer is in no way, shape, or form actually prepared for the realities of shooting to defend himself or the public in a real fight is irrelevant.

Some departments recognize this and have leadership good enough to invest in the training and resources necessary to hold officers to a higher standard. And that is highly transient because usually said leadership is temporary and retires to be replaced by someone else who says "Why do we have to have standards higher than department X?" because they came from department X where they'd worked for "years". Meanwhile if you look really hard at department X you'd find that department X had fatally shot more people by accident in a given period of time than it had criminal suspects who justified the use of lethal force. But the city and their insurance policy paid out, so it wasn't like the new leader (carefully selected because of how well they represented "diversity") actually faced any accountability for how they were training their people.

"Our training met DCJS standards!" Ah. Well, then. Case closed. The fault was on the individual officer!

And that's how departments with higher standards get eroded by a leadership change. Upgrades to leadership can and do happen, but they seem to be rarer.

Policing in general is islands of competence and professionalism under constant assault by tsunamis of mediocrity.

And that's before we even get into the human factors of teaching people how to use handguns.

Shooting requires your head and hands to work together in some form of harmony. Some human beings are so physically inept that the simplest thing imaginable requires immense concentration for them to achieve. I have run into people where the best I can do is get them to stop pointing the gun at themselves. I've had private training sessions where we never fired a shot because the person I was working with was absolutely incapable of handling the gun safely.

These people show up to police academies too. And they are going to be handed a plastic, striker-fired handgun with a 6 pound trigger because that gun is cheap and kinda works OK. And then some poor bastard is going to be expected to teach that person how to pass the state standards. And that's with one trigger press to get this person to learn. Two?

Now I know what you're thinking: Someone who is that inept shouldn't be using firearms. And they certainly shouldn't be given arrest powers and a gun and thrust into complex situations where life and death are on the line. But that's not what the courts and society say. The courts and society at large don't think that is a meaningful barrier to handing someone a badge and so those poor bastards charged with teaching firearms are expected to drag that person across the finish line.

See, that person represents tens of thousands of dollars already invested in performing background checks and/or clearances and the institution doesn't want that money flushed away on something as trivial as how they perform with a lethal weapon they are expected to use out in public.

Swirl all that together and you get institutions who are picking up plastic striker-fired handguns with 6 pound triggers because they are cheap and they are easier to teach recruits to pass a test with.

Proficiency with a DA/SA gun requires sufficient training to instill the discipline necessary to effectively manage the transition between trigger presses. That takes time, money, ammunition, and skilled instructors who know how to coach. All things in short supply.

Especially that last part.

[TCinVA]

Other things:

A good draw is not made on the range with live ammo. It's made through deliberate, careful dryfire practice. A good coach can give you pointers on the range, but you have to burn those in with dryfire.

Splits are useful as a diagnostic tool for looking at how you are managing your grip, trigger, and sights. Especially your grip...because a good grip will allow the gun to come back to more or less where it was before you fired the shot. Which means you can start working the trigger sooner. Which means that another accurate shot to the same place takes less time. Someone who can shoot sub 1/4 second aimed splits and hit something is someone who has a good grip, has learned to process what they are seeing on the sights at speed (you can see an acceptable sight picture in hundredths of a second) and is able to work the trigger good enough to get the required hit. These are all good things. The point of looking at splits is not to chase the lowest number possible, but to get quantifiable information about what is happening in those fractions of a second where the shot is happening and recovery from the shot is happening.

Thus when I see someone griping about using a timer, I'm inclined to think that they don't really understand what the tool is for. It's like someone telling me that this crescent wrench doesn't drive nails worth a damn. That person isn't going to work on my house.

There are some areas of instruction where I don't use a timer because the people I'm working with aren't ready for it yet. But it is a priority for me to get the timer involved so that the people I'm teaching become accustomed to accomplishing useful tasks in the time frame that a typical defensive situation is going to last.

One of the great stressors in an emergency situation is time. It is an emergency precisely because we know something bad is going to happen in a short period of time if we don't do something about it. In every area of emergency response timers are used. Whether that's timing how quickly a fireman can get his gear on or timing how quickly a combat medic can stop a femoral bleed using a live pig, we use timers in one form or fashion in any place where we are training human beings to respond to a lethal exigency because they need to know how to manage the extremely limited amount of time they will have to prevent a bad outcome.

The idea that armed self defense should be an exception to that rule is fucking ridiculous.

[AMC]

TCinVA.....Jesus man.....GET OUTTA MY HEAD!

[TCinVA]

The most fundamental and beneficial thing you can learn to do with a handgun is learn how to draw to a good grip as quickly as possible.

That can also be done without a single shot fired...IF you have the discipline to read what your sights are telling you.

Doing dryfire correctly requires immense mental discipline and brutal honesty.

[Borderland]

P239s are awesome and their discontinuation is proof that Sig is retarded.

I'll predict that in a few years the P-239 will become a classic and will be very expensive to acquire, especially in 9 MM. Parts production for discontinued Sigs will probably become a lucrative business. I don't know what models have been discontinued except P-225 and P-239. Looks like P-220 is headed in that direction also. I've had several of those and like a fool sold them.

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't know what models have been discontinued except P-225 and P-239.

P224 and P245 come to mind, although the P245 was replaced by the P220 compact, which I think has also been discontinued.

[Inspector71]

My first FI school that I attended (1997), we had half the class shooting the S&W 6906 (DA/SA), the other half shooting the S&W 6946 (DAO). All agency issued weapons with no unauthorized modifications. All 9mm and both models were three and half inch barrels. They even leveled the playing field by issuing a no retention, straight up and out holster to all students for the duration of the course. You would think that the 6906, with its lighter, second trigger pull, would provide a distinct advantage, and thusly win out over the numerous qual courses, man-on-man shoot offs, timed stress exercises, etc... that we participated in over the nearly three week school. But, our class top gun winner toted a 6946. Even your humble writer won a 12 yard steel shoot down exercise against several 6906 guys. Not a scientific conclusion, just an observation.

[jd950]

I'll predict that in a few years the P-239 will become a classic and will be very expensive to acquire, especially in 9 MM. Parts production for discontinued Sigs will probably become a lucrative business. I don't know what models have been discontinued except P-225 and P-239. Looks like P-220 is headed in that direction also. I've had several of those and like a fool sold them.

A bunch of different versions (various finishes, grip options and so on) of Sig DA/SA guns have been discontinued. As far as distinct models vs variations, in the past couple of years I believe that in addition to the P239 and P225A1, they dropped the P227 (double stack .45) and the P224 (sort of a shrunken P229) and the P290 subcompact. I wonder sometimes if they are keeping the remaining guns in production because of existing LE and military contracts and the resulting need for replacement guns and parts. Just speculation, though.

I do think the P220 compact and P245 are gone too.

Any company will make what sells and "everyone" wants short, light SFA triggers.

I have made sure I have a reasonable stock of repair parts and/or backup guns for the recently discontinued guns that I like. I did the same thing with 3rd gen S&W pistols.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Extremely strong posts TCinVA . You took the words out of my mouth and added a bunch more I hadn't yet considered. We should really have a "best of" posts in PF.

The one quibble I have is the quantification of only 1% of armed officers being highly proficient. I live in a semi rural area and we have far more than 1% of the local LEOs at our USPSA matches. All but one of them I would consider moderately to highly proficient. Just one anecdote...

[BehindBlueI's]

they dropped the P227 (double stack .45)

I bet the P227 would have sold really well if it'd been released when the Clinton AWB was still in place and the 9mm hadn't risen to ascendency in LE circles. I had one, I liked it, I just didn't like it enough to deal with how tough magazines were to source and the extra cost over P220 magazines for two extra rounds. I ended up trading for a P220 Elite.

It wasn't a bad gun, it was just a too late gun.

[Jared]

TCinVA those are some damn good posts. I regret that I have but only one like to give for each.

[jd950]

I bet the P227 would have sold really well if it'd been released when the Clinton AWB was still in place and the 9mm hadn't risen to ascendency in LE circles. I had one, I liked it, I just didn't like it enough to deal with how tough magazines were to source and the extra cost over P220 magazines for two extra rounds. I ended up trading for a P220 Elite.

It wasn't a bad gun, it was just a too late gun.

I agree. I have one and like it. Actually, the wider backstrap makes it feel a bit softer shooting than the P220, but I think for most, the extra grip width just wasn't worth 2 more rounds, especially when there are decent 10 round mags available for the P220, if one wants them. The P227 14 round mags were supposedly unreliable and that helped kill the gun. I have a couple of those mags that run fine, but if carrying the gun, I would just use the 10.

I guess they made a gun that not many were looking for.

[TheNewbie]

I agree. I have one and like it. Actually, the wider backstrap makes it feel a bit softer shooting than the P220, but I think for most, the extra grip width just wasn't worth 2 more rounds, especially when there are decent 10 round mags available for the P220, if one wants them. The P227 14 round mags were supposedly unreliable and that helped kill the gun. I have a couple of those mags that run fine, but if carrying the gun, I would just use the 10.

I guess they made a gun that not many were looking for.


They made a gun many were looking for. People were just looking for it long before they made, and no longer when they made it.


The P220 is an awesome gun. If you could guarantee me long term reliability and durability, I would probably switch to carrying one. They shoot well for me.


Did the 14 round mags make the gun massive? It looked like it in pics I have seen.

[Jared]

I bet the P227 would have sold really well if it'd been released when the Clinton AWB was still in place and the 9mm hadn't risen to ascendency in LE circles. I had one, I liked it, I just didn't like it enough to deal with how tough magazines were to source and the extra cost over P220 magazines for two extra rounds. I ended up trading for a P220 Elite.

It wasn't a bad gun, it was just a too late gun.

My brother is quite fond of SIG TDAs and he had a 227. I only ever shot it the one time but I remember liking it plenty good. I also remember wondering if it was really enough better than a P220 to be worth the hassle.

[jd950]

They made a gun many were looking for. People were just looking for it long before they made, and no longer when they made it.


The P220 is an awesome gun. If you could guarantee me long term reliability and durability, I would probably switch to carrying one. They shoot well for me.


Did the 14 round mags make the gun massive? It looked like it in pics I have seen.

Yes, the mag extends beyond the grip by about 1.5 inches. I guess I can't attach pics to a reply or I would do so.

P220? get one with an external extractor, preferably the short extractor. Keep the frame rails properly lubed with a light grease, change the recoil spring every 5k or so. About every 20k, replace about $50 worth of pins and springs and maybe a trigger bar, (or pay Sig $100 to do it and some other stuff), and it should last for the long haul. Nothing is guaranteed, but I have a P220 I bought new in 92 or 93 and it is still humming along, and I have some newer, but higher round count guns doing the same.

Guns, cameras, cars, tools...a bit of care and some maintenance makes a big difference. Worked an OIS not long ago and the gun was not just dirty but rusted inside. Literally, rust. He had never changed recoil spring and obviously never lubed the gun or cleaned it properly. It jammed and officer got shot twice trying to clear the jam and perp got away. Well, for a while he got away. Ofc asked me if I thought he should buy a more reliable gun. I suggested an alternative approach.

[MattyD380]

Yeah, I think the P229, P226 and P220 are the only DA/SA Sigs left.

[GJM]

Yeah, I think the P229, P226 and P220 are the only DA/SA Sigs left.

SP 2022?

[MattyD380]

Oh yeah. That too. It’s still on their site.

[MGW]

It wasn't a bad gun, it was just a too late gun.

Something you don’t hear about Sig very often.

[MGW]

They made a gun many were looking for. People were just looking for it long before they made, and no longer when they made it.


The P220 is an awesome gun. If you could guarantee me long term reliability and durability, I would probably switch to carrying one. They shoot well for me.


Did the 14 round mags make the gun massive? It looked like it in pics I have seen.

I know older 220’s worked pretty well. Some debate about magazines when I asked about new 220’s a few weeks ago. I think with proper maintenance, springs mostly, a pair of 220s would last a long time. They’re still my favorite Sig ever.

If I had to go to limited capacity magazines and wanted a full size gun I would seriously consider them.

[03RN]

I used to think that if I drew my gun then I was shooting...untill I drew my gun a few times and never fired. Thank God.

[MattyD380]

I know older 220’s worked pretty well. Some debate about magazines when I asked about new 220’s a few weeks ago. I think with proper maintenance, springs mostly, a pair of 220s would last a long time. They’re still my favorite Sig ever.

If I had to go to limited capacity magazines and wanted a full size gun I would seriously consider them.

I recently grabbed an older P220, actually. Kinda ratty and beat up. But it was a decent price and I’d always wanted one. Took it out yesterday (good weekend for shooting). Fired a little over 50 rounds at 10 yards, most of which ended up in a big hole on the bullseye.

64679

Such a nice gun to shoot. Effortless is the word I guess I’d pick. Bullets go right where you want them. Recoil wasn’t bad at all. I’ve had a P245 for a while but I’d never shot an actual P220. Very similar, just felt a little more planted, I guess. The .45 Sigs just kick ass.

64686

[TheNewbie]

Yes, the mag extends beyond the grip by about 1.5 inches. I guess I can't attach pics to a reply or I would do so.

P220? get one with an external extractor, preferably the short extractor. Keep the frame rails properly lubed with a light grease, change the recoil spring every 5k or so. About every 20k, replace about $50 worth of pins and springs and maybe a trigger bar, (or pay Sig $100 to do it and some other stuff), and it should last for the long haul. Nothing is guaranteed, but I have a P220 I bought new in 92 or 93 and it is still humming along, and I have some newer, but higher round count guns doing the same.

Guns, cameras, cars, tools...a bit of care and some maintenance makes a big difference. Worked an OIS not long ago and the gun was not just dirty but rusted inside. Literally, rust. He had never changed recoil spring and obviously never lubed the gun or cleaned it properly. It jammed and officer got shot twice trying to clear the jam and perp got away. Well, for a while he got away. Ofc asked me if I thought he should buy a more reliable gun. I suggested an alternative approach.


Damn! Was it a Sig?

I knew of a guy who went to qualify with his 1911. Officer I was talking to said it was so rusted they couldn’t even eject the magazine.

[jd950]

Damn! Was it a Sig?

I knew of a guy who went to qualify with his 1911. Officer I was talking to said it was so rusted they couldn’t even eject the magazine.

No. 1911 Officer model (plainclothes unit)

[Sal Picante]

64686

OMG... 2000 called and wants your laptop and your gun back...

[Hot Sauce]

OMG... 2000 called and wants your laptop and your gun back...Integrated webcams in 2000? That's some serious retro futurism, Les.

[98z28]

Extremely strong posts TCinVA . You took the words out of my mouth and added a bunch more I hadn't yet considered. We should really have a "best of" posts in PF.

The one quibble I have is the quantification of only 1% of armed officers being highly proficient. I live in a semi rural area and we have far more than 1% of the local LEOs at our USPSA matches. All but one of them I would consider moderately to highly proficient. Just one anecdote...

That is not normal, in my experience. I worked at a forward thinking/training heavy department with a decent SWAT team, at least for the place and time. The department even had a pretty competitive pistol team. Out of about 300 sworn, maybe 15 were serious about getting very good with a handgun. That was a much higher percentage of people compared to anywhere else I worked or was aware of.

[MattyD380]

OMG... 2000 called and wants your laptop and your gun back...

As long as 2000 keeps giving me guns that shoot straight and laptops with decent key travel... they're never getting their shit back.

I think the Thinkpad is, like, 2015ish, actually. I'm guessing the P220 is late 90s, early 2000s.

[revolvergeek]

see sig. :D

Thanks for that! Lots of old reading to catch up on.:cool: