Which electronic ear protection?

[Jaywalker]

I need to buy a replacement ear protection. After 15 years my old Peltor Ear Pros Dimension 1 have got too old to have effective maintenance kits - replacement ear pads, mic covers, inner pads. I'll be shooting pistols inside under a cover and possibly walls, and an AR under cover.

Is there any reason to look beyond the Howard Leight Impact or the Howard Leight Honeywell? Do either or both need Noise Fighters Sightlines gel ear cups? ( [url]https://noisefighters.com/products/sightlines1/url ) Will the large ear cups of the 30 dB reduction sets work with an AR stock?

[DMF13]

Peltor Tactical 500, with gel ear seals, and add some foam earplugs.

The 500s offer a 26dB NRR, work very well, and are reasonably priced. I use them for shooting both pistols and rifles.

You can spend more, but you won't get better.

[Coyotesfan97]

I’ve been wearing MSA Sordins with gel caps for awhile. We were issued Peltors but I used my Sordins instead.

[flyrodr]

I’ve been wearing MSA Sordins with gel caps for awhile. We were issued Peltors but I used my Sordins instead.

This. My Sordins are several years old, and other than looking a bit ragged, still work fine. And don't forget the gel caps!

I got mine at SRS Tactical. Nice folks, and in my experience, are very willing to help you decide which set is best for you in your price range.

And since you mentioned indoors, I'd also second the suggestion to double up with plugs, regardless of which set you get.

[Jaywalker]

And since you mentioned indoors, I'd also second the suggestion to double up with plugs, regardless of which set you get.
Absolutely. I double up indoors or out.

[BillSWPA]

I have both Peltor and Sordin. I like both, but tend to reach for the Sordin. I have had the Peltor for several years, with no durability issues. My Sordins are newer.

The Peltor uses 9v, while the Sordins use AA or AAA (I cannot recall which one). The Sordins can use Eneloops, making battery costs negligible. I have not yet found a NiMH 9v that is any good at holding a charge, and I stay away from alkaline to avoid leaks, so I am using lithium primary batteries in the Peltor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Casey]

My original pair of Sordin Supreme Pro-X are still going strong after over 10 years of use. The outer layer of the cable finally gave out within the last year due to rubbing on the wire parts that hold the earcups, which exposed some of the individual wires, but SRS Tactical fixed that for a nominal charge. I'd estimate I have around 900 hours of use on them since November 2010.

I would use caution with current production models, though. We purchased six pairs of the MSA Pro-X variant about two years ago for our instructors, and three of the six crapped out within a year and stopped providing ambient sound pass-through.

I also have a pair of TCI DEHPs (not to be confused with the newer Liberator HP, about which I've read mixed reviews). They are on par with the original Sordins. This is my backup pair, purchased in 2016, and I probably have just shy of 100 hours on them.

SRS now sells SWATCOM Active8 earpro, which is an evolution of the original Sordins. I tested out a set for a few days and found the sound quality to be a little better than my old Sordins, but not anything earth-shattering. If I was in the market for new ears and didn't want to drop a grand on the Ops-Core AMP, I would get a set of Active8s.

I have NoiseFighters on both my Sordins and TCIs, and I consider them an upgrade over regular gel seals. To use the notch effectively, based on my head shape, I have to lift the temples of my glasses about half an inch above where my ears meet my head so that they rest inside the notch and not below it. This means the lenses of my glasses end up being at a bit of a downward angle. I don't really mind that.

I have not used the Howard Leights. I started back in 2010 with a pair of Peltor Tac-6s, and they were just garbage compared to the Sordins. You get what you pay for.

[RJ]

My MSA Sordin Supreme Pro-X with OD Green Cups and Black Leather headband I bought in 2015 still work perfectly. I added a padded headband and a set of gel Noisefighters ear seals. I use AAA Eneloops. Zero issues in 5+ years use. I just bought my wife a set of MSA Sordin Pro-X black w gel seals from SRS Tactical a few weeks ago. She really likes them.

[Default.mp3]

On sale: https://www.gastonglockstyle.com/ear-muffs-active.html

They're just the Pro, rather than the Pro-X, so somewhat less environmental resistance (i.e., water and dust intrusion), but it's a pretty good deal.

This is assuming you're looking more for budget than big money shit (e.g., Ops Core AMP or COMTAC VI).

[tango-papa]

On sale: https://www.gastonglockstyle.com/ear-muffs-active.html

They're just the Pro, rather than the Pro-X, so somewhat less environmental resistance (i.e., water and dust intrusion), but it's a pretty good deal.

This is assuming you're looking more for budget than big money shit (e.g., Ops Core AMP or COMTAC VI).

Curious if you've done business with that seller?
That price looks waaay too good to be legit.
Also, notice the yellow banded announcement at the bottom of the page?
Seems like a good way to lose $100...

If you've done business with them and they are good to go, please advise and if yes, I'm getting a set.

[bofe954]

Curious if you've done business with that seller?
That price looks waaay too good to be legit.
Also, notice the yellow banded announcement at the bottom of the page?
Seems like a good way to lose $100...

If you've done business with them and they are good to go, please advise and if yes, I'm getting a set.

Look like a Sordin knock off to me. Doesn't show the Sordin sticker in the pic.

Plus this bit:

Important NOTE:
Our webshop is closing soon.
Purchased items cannot be returned or refunded.
Thank you for your understanding.

Please place an order only if you agree to the above.

Scary.

[tango-papa]

I need to buy a replacement ear protection. After 15 years my old Peltor Ear Pros Dimension 1 have got too old to have effective maintenance kits - replacement ear pads, mic covers, inner pads. I'll be shooting pistols inside under a cover and possibly walls, and an AR under cover.

Is there any reason to look beyond the Howard Leight Impact or the Howard Leight Honeywell? Do either or both need Noise Fighters Sightlines gel ear cups? ( [url]https://noisefighters.com/products/sightlines1/url ) Will the large ear cups of the 30 dB reduction sets work with an AR stock?


I've owned and/or used most, if not all of the different brands of electronic ear pro on the market over the years.

Current earpro is two sets of MSA Sordin Supreme Pro-X (one standard and one behind the neck).
They are worth every penny - recommend without reservation.

SRS Tactical is good to go.
The new SWATCOM Active8 stuff looks to be legit/good to go - if I ever need to replace one of the MSA's, it will likely be with a SWATCOM set.

https://srstactical.com/

[vcdgrips]

My Ear Pro is weak.

I have been using OEM HL Impacts in OD Green for 10 +years. First set gave great service for 5ish years. I then forgot them at the PD range for a good little while right before I had a class with TG. Got replacements from Prime in 36 hours shipped to my hotel in the middle of KS. They exceptionally well with my thin templed ESS eye pro and well enough with the std templed ones.

Forgotten ones came back 4+ yrs later as they had been put in a lost and found box that got lost, then found. Cleaned out the battery compartment and they are GTG as well.

I always use plugs with them, indoors or out, hot or cold. When they crap out, I will step up to the Sordins.

[Jaywalker]

[QUOTE=BillSWPA;1154652The Sordins can use Eneloops, making battery costs negligible. ... I stay away from alkaline to avoid leaks, so I am using lithium primary batteries in the Peltor.
[/QUOTE]
I'm with you on the rechargeable Eneloop batteries - I'm deeply invested in their AA and AAA. I won't put alkaline batteries in anything that's expensive that leakage could destroy. Unlike you, however, I stay away from Lithium batteries (except in my outdoor thermometers) - I've read some horror stories about burning Lithium separate batteries (not cell phones and laptops, fortunately).

AA or AAA would be great. Finding "N" batteries for my old Peltors was always a pain.

[FNFAN]

Peltor Tactical 500, with gel ear seals, and add some foam earplugs.

The 500s offer a 26dB NRR, work very well, and are reasonably priced. I use them for shooting both pistols and rifles.

You can spend more, but you won't get better.

Would you say they're reasonably roomy for folks with larger heads?

[Jaywalker]

There seems to be a consensus that Sordin is the best bet. I note that the noise reduction rating (NRR) is less than 20 dB, compared to others that commonly rate 22 dB and some to 30dB NRR. Is this a result of differences in the way NRR is measured?

[beenalongtime]

I am going to say, if you normally wear glasses, get the noisefighters for ANY of your choices of hearing protection, IMHO.

I have both Howard Leights and the Sordin Active8's and double up with plugs in an indoor range. IMHE the Sordin's are better, but not for the cost verses the amount I actually get to go shoot. That is an individual, cost/time/use calculation and ammo is up, my time is down, and I might get a second range trip, THIS YEAR, since dealing with some death issues.

[Default.mp3]

Curious if you've done business with that seller?
That price looks waaay too good to be legit.
Also, notice the yellow banded announcement at the bottom of the page?
Seems like a good way to lose $100...

If you've done business with them and they are good to go, please advise and if yes, I'm getting a set.I have not, personally, but I have personal friends who have ordered, and it's literally just MSA Supreme Pros. From one of them, this is what he got:
https://i.imgur.com/3uIPG41l.jpg

If you dig a bit deeper, it's just a webshop from Glock (the son of the founder, not the company) that seems to be getting shut down.

[Archer1440]

I’ve used everything from high end Peltor to Pro Ears over the years.

I like my Sordin supreme Pro-x’s and use them with lithium AAA’S with no issues.

They are absolutely not adequate for indoor range use with rifles or anything compensated or braked- I always double-plug indoors with a set of Surefire Ep’s refitted with a set of Final Audio Design silicone plugs. Very comfortable, still allows me to hear voices very easily, but is good for concussion sound (as in when the guy in the next bay cuts loose with something ridiculous like a .50 Barrett- BTDT)

Outdoors they are great, especially with the gel cups and my Smith Echo Elite eye pro, which have the flattest ear stems (stainless steel) of any eye pro I have ever used. Absolutely zero sound leak or temple pressure, with this combination. You need to plan on double-plugging when shooting rollover prone though- any muff will get cracked open if you’re doing it as I was instructed to at Gunsite over the years, and having your muzzle that close to the ground concentrates the report.

The Sordins allow me to have a good cheek weld with all my long arms as well. Enough clearance for just about anything.

If however, you have a very big noggin, or want to wear a thick skullcap/toque for winter conditions, the Sordin’s might not fit, especially if you also have a padded headband on them.

I have a 59-60 CM head measurement (medium-large in motorcycle helmet nomenclature) and they are just short of maxed out for adjustment with a US Tactical Sewing AHMC on the headband, and on a buttonless shooting cap or thin Arcteryx skull cap on my head.

[tango-papa]

I have not, personally, but I have personal friends who have ordered, and it's literally just MSA Supreme Pros. From one of them, this is what he got:

If you dig a bit deeper, it's just a webshop from Glock (the son of the founder, not the company) that seems to be getting shut down.

Thank You!!

Ordered a set at $141.94/shipped
($107.70 + $25.26 UPS Ground + $8.98 tax)

Damn good deal - thanks for the heads up & confirming the deal is legit.

[RJ]

Look like a Sordin knock off to me. Doesn't show the Sordin sticker in the pic.

Plus this bit:

Important NOTE:
Our webshop is closing soon.
Purchased items cannot be returned or refunded.
Thank you for your understanding.

Please place an order only if you agree to the above.

Scary.

That looks sketchy as hell.

And: if these are in fact "gray market" imports, you don't have any standing, if your earpro goes Tango Uniform. You may have to end up dealing with the OEM in Sweden if they croak. When sold in the US, the Pro has a 1 year warranty, vs. 5 year that the Pro-X has. The Pro is not fully waterproof, like the Pro-X.

[DMF13]

Would you say they're reasonably roomy for folks with larger heads?
Yeah, my head is a bit narrow, but I've got.some friends with some wide craniums that like them just fine.

[DMF13]

There seems to be a consensus that Sordin is the best bet. I note that the noise reduction rating (NRR) is less than 20 dB, compared to others that commonly rate 22 dB and some to 30dB NRR. Is this a result of differences in the way NRR is measured?No, to be able to put the standard EPA labeling for average NRR rating you must follow the same testing standards.

Further, the low profile sets like the MSA Sordins are designed for use with helmets, and with command, by tactical teams. The low profile, and comm controls, require they sacrifice noise reduction.

There are some who have claimed the MSA Sordins perform well at the important frequencies, but that is not true when compared to larger (and less expensive) darkroom.

Here is are links to previous posts where I showed the MSA Sordins greatly underperformed compared to less expensive Peltors:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37844-Need-new-electronic-hearing-protection-Suggestions-please&p=913219&highlight=Peltor#post913219

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22470-Electronic-ear-protection-current-state-of-groupthink&p=789234&highlight=Peltor#post789234

If you're part of a tac team, and need to wear very low profile head gear with a helmet, get the gear designed for that. However, if you want quality ear pro to protect your hearing, and not wearing a helmet, get something that provides better protection.

Also, when not using a helmet you can use radios with the Peltor 100, 300, 500, and RangeGuard headsets, along with the Howard Leight electronic earpro, as they all accept a 3.5mm auxiliary cord, and can be connected to radios. I've done it before and it works great.

[DMF13]

BTW, here is link to the "hack" for using the Peltor gel ear seals with their 100, 300, 500, and RangeGuard headsets:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23077-Life-Hacks-Thread&p=601494&highlight=Peltor#post601494

There are some companies that sell gel seal for the Howard Leight sets.

Gel ear seals, and eye pro that have thin temples are essential to getting a good seal, both for protecting your hearing, and comfort.

[Default.mp3]

Thank You!!

Ordered a set at $141.94/shipped
($107.70 + $25.26 UPS Ground + $8.98 tax)

Damn good deal - thanks for the heads up & confirming the deal is legit.Ironically, now that I look back, it was TomV that apparently had found that deal in another channel I'm in.

[Jaywalker]

No, to be able to put the standard EPA labeling for average NRR rating you must follow the same testing standards.

Further, the low profile sets like the MSA Sordins are designed for use with helmets, and with command, by tactical teams. The low profile, and comm controls, require they sacrifice noise reduction.

There are some who have claimed the MSA Sordins perform well at the important frequencies, but that is not true when compared to larger (and less expensive) darkroom.

Here is are links to previous posts where I showed the MSA Sordins greatly underperformed compared to less expensive Peltors:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37844-Need-new-electronic-hearing-protection-Suggestions-please&p=913219&highlight=Peltor#post913219

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22470-Electronic-ear-protection-current-state-of-groupthink&p=789234&highlight=Peltor#post789234

If you're part of a tac team, and need to wear very low profile head gear with a helmet, get the gear designed for that. However, if you want quality ear pro to protect your hearing, and not wearing a helmet, get something that provides better protection.

Also, when not using a helmet you can use radios with the Peltor 100, 300, 500, and RangeGuard headsets, along with the Howard Leight electronic earpro, as they all accept a 3.5mm auxiliary cord, and can be connected to radios. I've done it before and it works great.

MF13, that looks pretty conclusive for a recreational shooter. Let me ask one uncomfortable question, please: do you have any affiliation with Peltor?

[kobuksonhwacha]

I used Howard Leights for several years and they were perfectly serviceable, especially with the Noisefighters gel cups. I was turned onto the AKT1 Sport electronic muffs by Paul Sharp last year, and they're far superior in comfort, sound attenuation, and durability for essentially the same cost once one figures in the price of gel earcups.

[Default.mp3]

MF13, that looks pretty conclusive for a recreational shooter. Let me ask one uncomfortable question, please: do you have any affiliation with Peltor?Eh, it's just the nature of the ear pro itself. The Peltor ComTacs (both the III and VI) have about the same NRR as the Sordins (20 NRR for the ComTacs), just due to how low profile the cups have to be. The Peltor Sport Tactical 500 is a much bulkier muff, so it stands to reason that it has better protection.

This is why I doubled up with the SureFire plugs when I used Sordins and TCI Liberator HPs, and also partially why I switched over to the NFMI-enabled Ops Core AMPs. The ComTac VIs have the method of having an earplug mode, which appears to be an extra loud mode to compensate for people doubling up.

Beyond that, NRR in it of itself tells an incomplete story as to the total protection provided: https://trevoronthetrigger.wordpress.com/2014/05/01/msa-sordin-supreme-performance-the-misleading-nrr18db-rating/

[Jim Watson]

I applied the Trevor Formula to my plain vanilla passive Midway-Peltors and got a value of 44 Trevor Points vs his 30 for the Sordin.
Quieter is quieter, no matter how you slice it and the Sordin Kewl Factor does not make up for its low attenuation on any frequency.

Same deal, there are a lot of HL Sports out there, largely because they are cheap. But they are not very quiet.
I have the HL Pro which is reasonably quiet, but clunky. I wear passives unless I just HAVE to converse with shooting going on.

[DMF13]

MF13, that looks pretty conclusive for a recreational shooter. Let me ask one uncomfortable question, please: do you have any affiliation with Peltor?No I have no association with Peltor (or it's parent company 3M).

However, I am a person that believes in objective facts, not subjective nonsense. Further, due to a misspent youth, and more than 2000 hours of flying time, most of it in old (and very noisy) USAF aircraft, with screwed up comms systems (that were known to cause high frequency hearing damage),, I have both a severe hearing loss, and tinnitus. So, I am very serious about making sure I have good hearing protection, to retain what hearing I have, and to keep the hell that is tinnitus from getting worse. So I research the hell out of the stuff I buy for earpro.

For example I know that decibels are on a logarithmic scale, and therefore even 2 or 3 decibels is a huge difference in sound energy. It's one of the reasons why I have always worn both earmuffs style earpro, and earplugs. While the combination isn't additive, and seems to add only a few decibels of protection, it's actually a huge difference in sound energy reaching the ear. It's also why I was late to get into electronic earpro, and stuck with passive ears for so long. In the early days, the best you could hope for was a set that offered 15-20db noise reduction. I wasn't going to trade in passive earpro, that offered 30db NRR, for a set that offered so little. I was issued an old set of Peltors I never used, because they only had a 16dBNRR.

My first electronic ears were H-L Impact Sports, and I only wore them when instructing and needed to talk with students, and used passive sets for everything else. They had problems, both with inability to get a good seal (gel providers weren't around then), and with comfort. I then bought a set of RangeGuards, but again only used them for instructing, but also upgraded them with gel seals. I was issued a set of Tactical 100s, but by then I had already bought a set of Peltor 500s, which I still only use for instructing or competitions, as I need to be able to talk with students, and I want to hear any commands during a match clearly. Everything else I use passive muffs.

I had, or tried, a variety of earpro, including the MSA Sordins, over the years. However, I recommend the Peltor 500s when asked about electronic earpro, because they offer superior protection, at a good price. I will say, if you aren't worried about talking to other people while shooting, just stick with passive muffs, as you can get very good ones, with a 30+dB NRR.

[DMF13]

Eh, it's just the nature of the ear pro itself. The Peltor ComTacs (both the III and VI) have about the same NRR as the Sordins (20 NRR for the ComTacs), just due to how low profile the cups have to be. The Peltor Sport Tactical 500 is a much bulkier muff, so it stands to reason that it has better protection.

This is why I doubled up with the SureFire plugs when I used Sordins and TCI Liberator HPs, and also partially why I switched over to the NFMI-enabled Ops Core AMPs. The ComTac VIs have the method of having an earplug mode, which appears to be an extra loud mode to compensate for people doubling up.

Beyond that, NRR in it of itself tells an incomplete story as to the total protection provided: https://trevoronthetrigger.wordpress.com/2014/05/01/msa-sordin-supreme-performance-the-misleading-nrr18db-rating/See my posts above, where I showed the data for the all the frequencies. "Trevor" is trying to justify his "cool guy tactical" earpro, and spreading BS. First he's flat out wrong about NRR, as you can't put the EPA NRR label on and cherry pick frequencies. Also, when comparing the data for the individual frequencies the MSA Sordin earpro way underperforms when compared to larger earpro.

If you need low profile earpro for use with a helmet, then the MSA Sordin gear is a great choice. If you won't be using it with a helmet, then you're sacrificing hearing protection for no reason.

[Jaywalker]

No I have no association with Peltor (or it's parent company 3M).

However, I am a person that believes in objective facts, not subjective nonsense. Further, due to a misspent youth, and more than 2000 hours of flying time, most of it in old (and very noisy) USAF aircraft, with screwed up comms systems (that were known to cause high frequency hearing damage),, I have both a severe hearing loss, and tinnitus. So, I am very serious about making sure I have good hearing protection, to retain what hearing I have, and to keep the hell that is tinnitus from getting worse. So I research the hell out of the stuff I buy for earpro.

Thanks. Your story is much like mine. The B-52s and F-4s I flew did a job on my high range hearing, too. Add in gunfire and I'm lucky to have what I have left. I also mostly stay with good passives, but there are times that electronic reductions and their related voice capabilities are necessary. Most sadly, I don't shoot as a much as I like in order to avoid the additional damage.

Now to review for the largest muffs with which I can shoot a rifle...

[Default.mp3]

See my posts above, where I showed the data for the all the frequencies. "Trevor" is trying to justify his "cool guy tactical" earpro, and spreading BS. First he's flat out wrong about NRR, as you can't put the EPA NRR label on and cherry pick frequencies. Also, when comparing the data for the individual frequencies the MSA Sordin earpro way underperforms when compared to larger earpro.

If you need low profile earpro for use with a helmet, then the MSA Sordin gear is a great choice. If you won't be using it with a helmet, then you're sacrificing hearing protection for no reason.Fair enough on him being wrong on the ability to cherry pick what the EPA NRR label states. That being said, the fundamental argument is sound, AFAIK, in that the EPA NRR ratings in themselves do not provide adequate information about how much of the noise impulse is being protected against. As noted, gunshots cover only a specific frequency of sound, and it's not as simple as saying "the Sordins only reduce noise by 18 dB".

As for "underperforming", I don't really think that's necessarily a great way to put it; it absolutely does not perform as well, but the question isn't how much sound it can attenuate, but merely does it attenuate enough noise for the given sound impulse. Once you're below the threshold for hearing damage for the length of time of a gunshot, then does it really matter how low the energy impulse is that's reaching your ear? Good enough is good enough, a gunshot attenuated to 130 dB is not going to be any more harmful than one attenuated to 120 dB.

[Jim Watson]

I was with you down to the last. 130 dB is a lot more energy than 120.

[Default.mp3]

I was with you down to the last. 130 dB is a lot more energy than 120.Oh, it is. But the thing is, 120 dB is harmful to the human ear if exposed for more than 8 seconds (or so the NIOSH guidelines usually say). 132 dB is harmful if exposed for a more than half a second. A gunshot is going to be far less than a half second, so that's my argument that 120 dB and 130 dB are about the same when it comes to gunshot attenuation. Yes, the NIOSH guidelines are for cumulative noise exposure per 8 hour work day, but at the same time, gunshots are in like the high single digit milliseconds, IIRC, so yeah. Hrm. I guess it does play a role in how many gunshots per day is safe depending on the muff you have.

Man, long story short, just fucking double up. Plugs are a good back-up anyway for if your muffs get knocked loose or something.

[Jaywalker]

Right now I expect to buy two Peltor headsets, a passive Peltor Sport Ultimate Hearing Protector (NRR 30 dB) and an active Peltor Sport Tactical 500 Smart Electronic Hearing Protector(NRR 26 dB) for when I need to hear conversation.

Will both of these be suitable with a rifle stock? I imagine the 500 being thinner would be okay, but what about the bulkier passive set?

How do the $26 Peltor gel ear pads work compared to the Noise Fighters at $50 - $60? I understand the Noise Fighters have a slot for shooting glasses.

[Jim Watson]

Depends on the shape of your head and the length of your neck.
I have not found a muff that a rifle or shotgun does not knock off my ear.
Other folks do quite well with them.

[Default.mp3]

Right now I expect to buy two Peltor headsets, a passive Peltor Sport Ultimate Hearing Protector (NRR 30 dB) and an active Peltor Sport Tactical 500 Smart Electronic Hearing Protector(NRR 26 dB) for when I need to hear conversation.

Will both of these be suitable with a rifle stock? I imagine the 500 being thinner would be okay, but what about the bulkier passive set?

How do the $26 Peltor gel ear pads work compared to the Noise Fighters at $50 - $60? I understand the Noise Fighters have a slot for shooting glasses.Why not just double up with a lower profile muff instead of having to fuck with two different muffs? Hell, if you go by raw NRR numbers, the cheap 3M yellow foamies are 29 dB. The plugs will help with when you shoulder a rifle in an unorthodox position and it cracks the muffs, too, as noted by Archer1440, or if you have a bulkier set. Plugs by themselves I would be a bit leery, simply because of the bone conduction issue, but I've heard arguments that for shooting it's not really an issue given the frequency involved. Of course, if plugs are uncomfortable for you, it is what it is, but otherwise, I've never seen a convincing reason to use the large muffs with great attenuation instead of simply doubling up (in fact, as I noted earlier, I would double up regardless of the muff used).

[DMF13]

Fair enough on him being wrong on the ability to cherry pick what the EPA NRR label states. That being said, the fundamental argument is sound, AFAIK, in that the EPA NRR ratings in themselves do not provide adequate information about how much of the noise impulse is being protected against. As noted, gunshots cover only a specific frequency of sound, and it's not as simple as saying "the Sordins only reduce noise by 18 dB".The problem is the available data doesn't support what "Trevor" claims, as other, larger earpro, provides greater protection across all frequencies, including the impulse (ie, explosive, like gunshot) noise.

As for "underperforming", I don't really think that's necessarily a great way to put it; it absolutely does not perform as well, but the question isn't how much sound it can attenuate, but merely does it attenuate enough noise for the given sound impulse. Once you're below the threshold for hearing damage for the length of time of a gunshot, then does it really matter how low the energy impulse is that's reaching your ear? Good enough is good enough, a gunshot attenuated to 130 dB is not going to be any more harmful than one attenuated to 120 dB.The answer is the "the more the better," when it comes to how much you should attenuate the noise. Further, scientific data has shown impulse noise does more damage than sources of continuous noise.

https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2018/07/18/impulse-noise/#:~:text=Considerable%20research%20has%20shown%20t hat,damage%20to%20the%20inner%20ear.
"Considerable research has shown that impulsive noise is more likely to cause noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL) than continuous noise of equal energy. Exposure to high-intensity impulses can cause acoustic trauma and instant mechanical damage to the inner ear."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1009246/
"Impulse noise seemed to produce permanent threshold shifts at 4000 and 6000 Hz after a shorter duration of exposure than continuous steady state noise."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16329800/
"Conclusion: The damage of impulse noise on hearing loss was much more than that of continuous noise according to equal energy rule of dosimeter data."

[Default.mp3]

The problem is the available data doesn't support what "Trevor" claims, as other, larger earpro, provides greater protection across all frequencies, including the impulse (ie, explosive, like gunshot) noise.I'm not sure I follow. The impulse and the frequency are both important components of sound, and thus the damage it can generate, but they're not correlated. Again, I'm not stating that the large muffs don't perform better, my argument is that the extra performance doesn't matter once you reach a certain threshold of performance.


The answer is the "the more the better," when it comes to how much you should attenuate the noise. Further, scientific data has shown impulse noise does more damage than sources of continuous noise.

https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2018/07/18/impulse-noise/#:~:text=Considerable%20research%20has%20shown%20t hat,damage%20to%20the%20inner%20ear.
"Considerable research has shown that impulsive noise is more likely to cause noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL) than continuous noise of equal energy. Exposure to high-intensity impulses can cause acoustic trauma and instant mechanical damage to the inner ear."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1009246/
"Impulse noise seemed to produce permanent threshold shifts at 4000 and 6000 Hz after a shorter duration of exposure than continuous steady state noise."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16329800/
"Conclusion: The damage of impulse noise on hearing loss was much more than that of continuous noise according to equal energy rule of dosimeter data."I'm not sure why "the more is better". Could you please point to where this is stated, compared to my belief of "good enough is good enough"?

As for impulse versus continuous noise, I'm not sure I see the connection. The studies show that this is the case for when equivalent amounts of energy are being generated, so exposure to 100 dB of noise for 8 hours is less damaging than exposure to 148 dB for a half second; how does this play into how we attenuate against gunshots, where the impulses are all about the same? In fact, it has apparently been shown that hearing protection provides better protection against impulses than steady state (hence TCI making a big deal about their active noise cancellation abilities), according to “hearing protection protects better for impulse noise than for continuous noise” (Johnson et al., 1998, p. 85), though I haven't been able to dig up that particular paper, but it was cited here: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA573840.pdf

[gringop]

I bought 2 pairs of Peltor Sport Ultimate Hearing Protectors to replace my 20 year old Peltor Ultimate 10s. They mainly get used when I'm running gas yard equipment, or as loaners to others when shooting pistols. They are incredibly quiet but absolutely too bulky for anything but standing pistol shooting. Double them up with plugs and you have now enter the "Quiet Zen Zone".

I use Howard Lights with Noisefighters for pistol practice and matches where I need to hear the timer and range commands. I also use them for shooting rimfire rifles on 100 yard steel so I can hear the hits and they don't get dislodged by the cheekweld on those downward sloping rifle stocks. They also work with my other lever actions and other rifles that have a good amount of stock drop.

For ARs and other straight rifle stocks I use old Peltor Shotgunner muffs with the scallop on the lower part and double up with plugs if I'm not shooting suppressed.

64607

Even with the scallop, I have to position the cup as high as possible to keep it from getting dislodged. It's just the way my face and cheekbones work with straight stocks.


To summarize, the Ultimates are quiet as hell but useless for me when rifle shooting. The HLs are comfy for me with Noisefighters on some rifles but would need plugs added if indoors. For ARs I use have to the smallest profile muffs I can find and double up with plugs.

[DMF13]

. . .including the impulse (ie, explosive, like gunshot) noise.
I'm not sure I follow. The impulse and the frequency are both important components of sound, and thus the damage it can generate, but they're not correlated. Again, I'm not stating that the large muffs don't perform better, my argument is that the extra performance doesn't matter once you reach a certain threshold of performance.

I suppose I should have worded that more carefully, and had that sentence read, ". . .including the impulse (ie, explosive, like gunshot) noise frequencies." Because the low profile sets designed for use with helmets, underperform at the specific frequencies "Trevor" is trying to say they perform well.

I'm not sure why "the more is better". Could you please point to where this is stated, compared to my belief of "good enough is good enough"?Because it's generally accepted noise energy above 85dB is where noise is dangerous, and causes hearing loss.

Gunshot noise is shown to be 150dB, and often much greater. For example, 9mm will be approximately 160dB: https://earinc.com/gunfire-noise-level-reference-chart/

Meaning you're not getting close to 85dB, or even below 100dB, even when "doubling up," as the effective of muffs and plugs together is not truly additive: https://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/extra-protection-wearing-earmuffs-and-1218
"Earplugs worn in combination with earmuffs, helmets, or communications headsets, typically provide greater protection than either device alone. However, the attenuation of the combination is not equal to the sum of the individual attenuation values (Berger, 1983), as illustrated in Figure 1. Note for example; at 1000 Hz the combination of a 26-dB plug and a 34-dB muff does not yield 60-dB overall, but rather about 41 dB."

So, you're taking a huge risk, because none of what's available is "good enough," and therefore we're in a situation where "more is better."

That's why I use these, when I'm not at a match, or instructing at work: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01BGHVPYK/ref=sspa_dk_detail_2?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B01BGHVPYK&pd_rd_w=hjabX&pf_rd_p=f0355a48-7e73-489a-9590-564e12837b93&pd_rd_wg=hQ1cv&pf_rd_r=53JKHYCF8GDRCJG80GZB&pd_rd_r=6f3efde9-bec5-412f-b172-8e7dd3010f75&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFGM1pQNVowRUJQOFcmZ W5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA0MDEzNzhDU0tERktCTUJNMDQmZW5jcnl wdGVkQWRJZD1BMTAyODAzNjMxNkxSMTBXUVpISTMmd2lkZ2V0T mFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWMmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmV kaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

That additional protection over the Peltor 500s is important, because none of them alone are really "good enough," and therefore, "more is better."
As for impulse versus continuous noise, I'm not sure I see the connection. The studies show that this is the case for when equivalent amounts of energy are being generated, so exposure to 100 dB of noise for 8 hours is less damaging than exposure to 148 dB for a half second; how does this play into how we attenuate against gunshots, where the impulses are all about the same? In fact, it has apparently been shown that hearing protection provides better protection against impulses than steady state (hence TCI making a big deal about their active noise cancellation abilities), according to “hearing protection protects better for impulse noise than for continuous noise” (Johnson et al., 1998, p. 85), though I haven't been able to dig up that particular paper, but it was cited here: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA573840.pdfAgain, it's generally accepted noise energy above 85dB is dangerous, and causes hearing loss. You aren't getting there with gunshots, with any of the currently available technology, so anytime you trade away a few decibels, you are risking more damage to your hearing.

So why pay more, for a product designed for a specific purpose, when you can get better protection?

As someone who is typing this with tinnitus ringing in his ears, and constantly having my family, friends, coworkers repeat themselves, due significant hearing loss, I wish I had been more diligent about this stuff much earlier in life.

Now, all I can do is try my best to mitigate further damage, and encourage others to do the same.

[RJ]

I don't have a particular dog in this hunt, but: there are some terms being used in this thread, such as "sound pressure", and "sound power" and "dB", that are not, maybe, being used as ah, precisely might be a good word, as they can be. I would encourage anyone to read the online OHSA Tech Manual on Noise for a good informative overview:

https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/new_noise/

NRR and gunshot noise etc. would benefit from having a common language for discussing it, and the TM does a good job of summarizing the parameters of noise and it's additive effects on us humans. I'm not trying to come across as a "male member"; but by way of offering "where I am coming from", I got my Masters in Electrical Engineering in 1983 from UVa, specializing in Acoustics, Speech and Signal Processing. For the first 11 years of my 33+ year engineering career, I designed simulation systems for passive and active beamformers, as well as modelling post-processing algorithms in time/frequency domains associated with certain underwater acoustic applications for the US Navy.

For pistol shooting, I am in the camp of:

1) Select the best fitting, best performing, most reliable, highest NRR ear protection you can afford. If you can spring to gel seals, opt for those. Even better is an an earpro with electronic amplification.

2) Always double up with properly inserted, good performing ear plugs, especially indoors, and really especially if that guy walking up in the next lane is carrying an SBR case. :cool:

[DMF13]

Thanks. Your story is much like mine. The B-52s and F-4s I flew did a job on my high range hearing, too. Add in gunfire and I'm lucky to have what I have left. I also mostly stay with good passives, but there are times that electronic reductions and their related voice capabilities are necessary. Most sadly, I don't shoot as a much as I like in order to avoid the additional damage.I was a nav too (after washing out of UPT :( ), but on the RC-135. They had screwed with the electrical systems on the jet so much the comm system had a constant loud squeal, that was known to cause hearing damage. We got issued great DC headsets, but that did nothing to help with the noise coming out of the headsets themselves.

Now to review for the largest muffs with which I can shoot a rifle...Unfortunately, that's dependent on a variety of factors specific to each person. So what works for me, might not work for you. I have no problem with the 500s, and only occasionally have a bit of problem with the larger passive muffs I use.

[Default.mp3]

I suppose I should have worded that more carefully, and had that sentence read, ". . .including the impulse (ie, explosive, like gunshot) noise frequencies." Because the low profile sets designed for use with helmets, underperform at the specific frequencies "Trevor" is trying to say they perform well.I'm not interpreting the post the same way as you. To me, the argument is that the frequencies that gunshots mostly comprise of are protected much better than than the 19 dB NRR shows. The argument isn't that the low profile design does just as well, it's that it does much better than the EPA NRR rating would suggest.


Because it's generally accepted noise energy above 85dB is where noise is dangerous, and causes hearing loss.That is what OSHA states... when being exposed for over 8 hours at a time. AFAIK, OSHA states that 120 dB is the general threshold in which short term exposure can cause permanent damage, and even then, that's measured in seconds, and not the milliseconds of a gunshot. I challenge you to find me any source that states that 85 dB is enough to cause permanent noise-induced hearing loss when not being done hours at a time.


Meaning you're not getting close to 85dB, or even below 100dB, even when "doubling up," as the effective of muffs and plugs together is not truly additive: https://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/extra-protection-wearing-earmuffs-and-1218
"Earplugs worn in combination with earmuffs, helmets, or communications headsets, typically provide greater protection than either device alone. However, the attenuation of the combination is not equal to the sum of the individual attenuation values (Berger, 1983), as illustrated in Figure 1. Note for example; at 1000 Hz the combination of a 26-dB plug and a 34-dB muff does not yield 60-dB overall, but rather about 41 dB.

So, you're taking a huge risk, because none of what's available is "good enough," and therefore we're in a situation where "more is better."So this is where we clearly disagree. By my risk assessment, I don't need it to get to 85 dB, and I don't think that's a realistic goal. I'm well aware that doubling up does not increase NRR linearly based off of the separate ear pros' ratings, and nor does the NRR rating equate a direct reduction in dB, e.g., the ear will receive 143 dB when exposed to a 160 dB sound while wearing a 41 dB NRR ear pro.

I get it, hearing loss is cumulative and permanent, and can cause serious degradation in quality of life, so hearing protection is a big deal to me, too, and that's why I always double up, even when I'm shooting my suppressed .22 LR. But I disagree with your ultra-conservative assessment of what PPE is needed in minimize risks to hearing loss while shooting.

[tango-papa]

Ironically, now that I look back, it was TomV that apparently had found that deal in another channel I'm in.

Got the MSA Sordin's today.
Thanks again for the heads-up - they are legit with the gel cups.

[tango-papa]

Look like a Sordin knock off to me. Doesn't show the Sordin sticker in the pic.

Plus this bit:

Important NOTE:
Our webshop is closing soon.
Purchased items cannot be returned or refunded.
Thank you for your understanding.

Please place an order only if you agree to the above.

Scary.


That looks sketchy as hell.

And: if these are in fact "gray market" imports, you don't have any standing, if your earpro goes Tango Uniform. You may have to end up dealing with the OEM in Sweden if they croak. When sold in the US, the Pro has a 1 year warranty, vs. 5 year that the Pro-X has. The Pro is not fully waterproof, like the Pro-X.

FYI - the MSA Sordins from Gaston are good-to-go/legit with all the correct/proper packaging, labels on the unit itself, etc.
And they do come with the Gel cups and an AUX-Input cable; no batteries included - packaging shows them included, but the wording on the label about the batteries is sharpied/blacked out.

[tango-papa]

BillSWPA
Jaywalker
@RJ

I've always used Lithium batteries for MSA Sordin's.

Please advise - what's the most best Eneloop's for use with electronic ear pro and your preferred source for a complete rig/set up?

Thanks in advance...

[RJ]

I would probably ask JAD about batteries as well...

At least ‘for me’, I’ve used regular genuine Eneloops from Amazon in both sets of Sordins we have.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JHKSMIG/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_0Zt3Fb9SBSANH?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

I have a simple AA/AAA quad charger that I bought as well:

Panasonic BQ-CC75ASBA eneloop Individual Battery Charger with USB Charging Port, White

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0777V9SWN/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_nXt3Fb0T1J3MP?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

[tango-papa]

I would probably ask JAD about batteries as well...

At least ‘for me’, I’ve used regular genuine Eneloops from Amazon in both sets of Sordins we have. I have a simple AA/AAA quad charger that I bought as well.

Thank You!

[Jaywalker]

BillSWPA
Jaywalker
@RJ

I've always used Lithium batteries for MSA Sordin's.

Please advise - what's the most best Eneloop's for use with electronic ear pro and your preferred source for a complete rig/set up?

Thanks in advance...

I use the Powerex MH-C9000 charger - lots of advantages once you learn what recharge rates work. For instance, if your AA Eneloop is 1900 milli-Amp, then you want to charge it at a rate of between 0.4 to 0.6 of 1900 (I use 1000 mA/hr rate) (500 mA/hr for AAA 800 mA batteries) - that means you can charge up to four batteries completely in about 2 hours. Or, you can condition battery to last longer by taking 40 hours. As I said, lots of choices.

Two linked advantages of rechargeables like Eneloop is that they "self-discharge" very slowly and therefore don't leak and ruin your electronics as easily as alkaline batteries. Related, since they don't discharge fast, you can leave them in your bedside ear-pro with pretty good assurance that they'll have power when you want them to.

I don't use Eneloops outside in my weather stations in the winter, however - that's a good place for Lithiums.

As a matter of interest, there are other rechargeable batteries than Eneloop, but when a big company bought them (Panasonic, IIRC) and tried to re-label them with the Panasonic brand they didn't sell. Panasonic had to reverse and label them Eneloop. I buy the regular strength 1900 mA AA and 800 mA AAA. Lots of recharge cycles in them.

[BillSWPA]

BillSWPA
Jaywalker
@RJ

I've always used Lithium batteries for MSA Sordin's.

Please advise - what's the most best Eneloop's for use with electronic ear pro and your preferred source for a complete rig/set up?

Thanks in advance...

I use the standard Eneloops in (not the Pro) in AA and AAA because these have the ability to retain a charge longest. I buy them from Battery Junction.

For C and D cells, I use Tenergy Centura. Many other NiMH cells in these sizes are very expensive, and these work well. Eneloop C and D are simply bundled AA and AAA.

My charger is a Powerex Maha 808M. This charger will handle up to 8 AA, AAA, C, or D cells, and will automatically charge each cell at the correct current.

I purchased my charger from Thomas Distributing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tango-papa]

I use the Powerex MH-C9000 charger - lots of advantages once you learn what recharge rates work. For instance, if your AA Eneloop is 1900 milli-Amp, then you want to charge it at a rate of between 0.4 to 0.6 of 1900 (I use 1000 mA/hr rate) (500 mA/hr for AAA 800 mA batteries) - that means you can charge up to four batteries completely in about 2 hours. Or, you can condition battery to last longer by taking 40 hours. As I said, lots of choices.

Two linked advantages of rechargeables like Eneloop is that they "self-discharge" very slowly and therefore don't leak and ruin your electronics as easily as alkaline batteries. Related, since they don't discharge fast, you can leave them in your bedside ear-pro with pretty good assurance that they'll have power when you want them to.

I don't use Eneloops outside in my weather stations in the winter, however - that's a good place for Lithiums.

As a matter of interest, there are other rechargeable batteries than Eneloop, but when a big company bought them (Panasonic, IIRC) and tried to re-label them with the Panasonic brand they didn't sell. Panasonic had to reverse and label them Eneloop. I buy the regular strength 1900 mA AA and 800 mA AAA. Lots of recharge cycles in them.


I use the standard Eneloops in (not the Pro) in AA and AAA because these have the ability to retain a charge longest. I buy them from Battery Junction.

For C and D cells, I use Tenergy Centura. Many other NiMH cells in these sizes are very expensive, and these work well. Eneloop C and D are simply bundled AA and AAA.

My charger is a Powerex Maha 808M. This charger will handle up to 8 AA, AAA, C, or D cells, and will automatically charge each cell at the correct current.

I purchased my charger from Thomas Distributing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you both - good stuff.

[Casey]

SRS is now carrying Sordin Supreme Pro-X (https://srstactical.com/sordin-supreme-pro-x-l-ember-cups-black-leather-headband.html?redirect_mongo_id=60f88a5655bdba001f 1ba017&utm_source=Springbot&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=60f88a5655bdba001f1ba016) in "Ember" aka P-F orange. Just sayin'...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51329045069_24087f2dd0_b.jpg

[BobM]

SRS is now carrying Sordin Supreme Pro-X (https://srstactical.com/sordin-supreme-pro-x-l-ember-cups-black-leather-headband.html?redirect_mongo_id=60f88a5655bdba001f 1ba017&utm_source=Springbot&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=60f88a5655bdba001f1ba016) in "Ember" aka P-F orange. Just sayin'...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51329045069_24087f2dd0_b.jpg

I don’t need them but I sure do want them.

[RJ]

I don’t need them but I sure do want them.

Me either, and me too. The Sordins I got in the p-f Group Buy in 2014 from SRS Tactical are still 100% functional.