Backpacking: bears

[iakdrago]

With my schedule clearing up for the rest of the summer i will be doing a lot backpacking during the rest of the summer. Besides my own stupidity the only threats on the trail would be two legged or black bears. I understand that the chances of being attacked by a black bear are slim to none, but i also carry a gun while running errands. I carry an m&p9 fs, but was thinking of picking up another autoloader in a "bigger" caliber to take with me while on hikes. I've been convinced that when dealing with 2 legged threats, the difference between calibers is negligible. However, when dealing with something like a black bear would it benefit me to pick up either a .40, a .45 or go with the glock 20 in 10mm?

I suspect that most people would say to get a revolver in a magnum caliber. However, i would feel more comfortable with the higher capacity of an autoloader, especially when dealing with potentially fast moving target.

For now i'm going to try and find a 147 grain fmj rounds with the same poi as my current jhp, and stagger them in my mag.

[GJM]

A Glock 29 with Double Tap 200 grain FMJ penetrator loads for critters, and the Barnes 155 JHP X bullet for other uses, is our solution for what you describe.

[skoro]

I have a remote cabin in bear country. It's extremely unlikely that you'd be attacked by a black bear, They're pretty timid, normally. And if it turned into a situation where I had to defend myself, I'd be more comfortable with a can of bear spray than a handgun.

[DocGKR]

As noted, black bears are generally not a huge issue and you could probably get away with most service calibers. Brown bears need something like a 12 ga w/a deep penetrating slug or a hot .45-70, not a handgun...

[F-Trooper05]

If you call Alaska Fish & Game they'll tell you that a .44 Mag or larger is recommended for grizzlies. Like the OP though, I can get faster, more accurate hits with a semi-auto than a revolver, so last year I switched over from a S&W 629 to a Glock 20. A year or two ago, someone at Denali National Park dropped a grizzly with a .45 1911, which goes to show that shot placement is still key.

Carrying a rifle or shotgun is ideal, but when you're standing in the middle of a river with a fly rod in your hand, or humping a 30 pound ruck on a 20 mile hike, it's not always an option.

[GJM]

Carrying a rifle or shotgun is ideal, but when you're standing in the middle of a river with a fly rod in your hand, or humping a 30 pound ruck on a 20 mile hike, it's not always an option.

Absolutely. The handgun is hopefully secondary, but try as you might, at times the shotgun/rifle is in the aircraft, on the bank of the river, tied to your pack frame in rough terrain, or otherwise unavailable.

Since you aren't hunting grizzly with it, the requirement is that the handgun be able to penetrate the bear's skull inside 15 yards with a penetrator load. My four inch 329 .44 shoots a Garrett Defender load of 320 +/- grains at 1,020 FPS and the Glock 29 shoots a 200 grain penetrator load at just over 1,200 fps. Neither would be a first choice, but I believe both would penetrate the skull with a properly placed shot.

[iakdrago]

I have a remote cabin in bear country. It's extremely unlikely that you'd be attacked by a black bear, They're pretty timid, normally. And if it turned into a situation where I had to defend myself, I'd be more comfortable with a can of bear spray than a handgun.

I completely agree, but i'm the type of person that, to an extent, would rather be safe than sorry--i carry a handgun on my belt every time i step out the door. The chances that i will ever have to rely on that handgun are extremely small--as are bear attacks.

Going back to black bears. Because they are timid, in case of an attack something seriously went wrong and they feel severely threatened for their life or the life of their cubs (worst case scenario). In either of those cases i don't see bear spray being too effective.

--i understand that chances of the attack are very small
--i understand that a high power rifle or a 12 gauge shotgun would be a better choice
--i undersetand that magnum revolver calibers are also more powerful, but i prefer the higher capacity of an auto pistol

For black bear threat, not grizzly bears, i'm torn between the three caliber options: .40, .45, and 10mm. The .40 and .45 are readily available for the m&p--the handgun that i shoot the best and have the most rounds fired with. Hence i would prefer a .40 or a .45. I'm trying to gauge whether the general consensus is "go 10mm or might as well stick with the 9mm."

[deeHKman]

For a semi. with a nice capacity the Glock 20 loaded with Buffalo Bore 200gr or above Hardcast is one i would choose. Hardcast is what most like even in magnum revolver's...some deep penetrating ammo...i had a G20sf set-up and it was a real nice gun. I have no glock's now but this has me thinking of another one. I like 10mm's in a Norma like range no watered down stuff, good luck

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=219

Mike McNett of Double Tap would be my second choice. He started out on "The 10 ring" a sub forum on Glocktalk year's back.
DT has 200gr HC and 230gr HC link below,
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158

[EMC]

Glock 20 is issued to the Danish Navy Arctic Sirus patrols for polar bear defense. Not saying it's a good idea. I'm sure they have primary weapons that are more effective.



Edited: changed Dutch to Danish (big geographical mistake)

[DanH]

I'm not sure I'd trust anything but a 10mm in an auto. After all, we are talking about a freaking bear here.

Personally, I doubt I'd go hiking without a .44 mag revolver or carbine. But then I believe in firepower when the possibility exists of running into something not only bigger than me, but that might look at me as food.

And yes, this includes black bears, although the size comparison is closer than I'd like it to be :p

[JFK]

Bear Spray is best for Black Bears. They tend to be more like coyotes. They try to avoid you unless you surprise them or threaten the cubs. Bear spray is easier to deploy more accurate with a charging bear. A bear bell on a walking stick is a good preventative measure from startling a feeding bruin. If you are in the Southwest you are more likely to run into a cougar than a bear. If you run into a brown bear all bets are off.

A tip to tell if you are near brown bears or black bears is the scat. Black bear scat looks like bear scat, brown bear scat looks like bear scat but has bells in it and smells like pepper spray.

[JDM]

If you are in the Southwest you are more likely to run into a cougar than a bear.

Which is many times more freighting and, I believe, dangerous.

[JonInWA]

Glock 20 is issued to the Dutch Navy Arctic Sirus patrols for polar bear defense. Not saying it's a good idea. I'm sure they have primary weapons that are more effective.

Their primary defensive weapon is a 30-06 M1917 Enfield bolt-action rifle, due to the combination of cartridge effectiveness against polar bears, and the rifle's durability and reliability in the Arctic environment.

In most circumstances that the original poster described, I'd feel comfortable with a Glock 20 in 10mm or a Glock 21 in .45 ACP, with judiciously chosen loadings.

Best, Jon

[bdcheung]

A tip to tell if you are near brown bears or black bears is the scat. Black bear scat looks like bear scat, brown bear scat looks like bear scat but has bells in it and smells like pepper spray.

I LOL'd.

[FotoTomas]

Simple answer...Glock 20. :)

[GJM]

For a semi. with a nice capacity the Glock 20 loaded with Buffalo Bore 200gr or above Hardcast is one i would choose. Hardcast is what most like even in magnum revolver's...some deep penetrating ammo...i had a G20sf set-up and it was a real nice gun. I have no glock's now but this has me thinking of another one. I like 10mm's in a Norma like range no watered down stuff, good luck

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=219

Mike McNett of Double Tap would be my second choice. He started out on "The 10 ring" a sub forum on Glocktalk year's back.
DT has 200gr HC and 230gr HC link below,
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158

Neither the Buffalo Bore 200 grain penetrator, nor Corbon 200 grain penetrator loads feed reliably in our three Glock 20's (2 20SF models and 1 20) that I tested the loads in. I have heard similar reports from some forest service types in Alaska.

The reason I run the Double Tap 200 grain penetrator FMJ load is it runs in every Glock 29 and 20 my wife and I own.

[iakdrago]

Thank you for everyone's valuable input. I think i will end up going with the glock 20, now it's time to figure which holster would work with a hip belt--i'm thinking drop leg?

[TGS]

Thank you for everyone's valuable input. I think i will end up going with the glock 20, now it's time to figure which holster would work with a hip belt--i'm thinking drop leg?

For backpacking? Consider the Hill People Gear Kit Bag. It wouldn't get in the way with your backpack waistbelt and would also provide a good place to keep your survival kit.

[GJM]

My two favorite holsters for a Glock when carrying a heavy pack, are the Survival Sheath Systems chest rig, or the Hill People runner's pack with a Vanguard 1 to cover the trigger.

I find drop leg holsters to be uncomfortable because of the interaction between the pack waist belt and your belt holding the drop rig, clumsy because the pistol bangs on things, obviously not concealable, and a pain to adjust with rain pants and trying to keep the pistol out of the elements.

[Kyle Reese]

Glock 20 is issued to the Dutch Navy Arctic Sirus patrols for polar bear defense. Not saying it's a good idea. I'm sure they have primary weapons that are more effective.

Danish, bro. Danish. :)

You are correct, though.

[EMC]

Danish, bro. Danish. :)

You are correct, though.

My bad!

[tmoore912]

Thank you for everyone's valuable input. I think i will end up going with the glock 20, now it's time to figure which holster would work with a hip belt--i'm thinking drop leg?


My two favorite holsters for a Glock when carrying a heavy pack, are the Survival Sheath Systems chest rig, or the Hill People runner's pack with a Vanguard 1 to cover the trigger.

I find drop leg holsters to be uncomfortable because of the interaction between the pack waist belt and your belt holding the drop rig, clumsy because the pistol bangs on things, obviously not concealable, and a pain to adjust with rain pants and trying to keep the pistol out of the elements.

Another option is the Guides Choice Chest Holster from http://www.diamonddcustomleather.com/Chest_Holsters.php

It works very well, even with a backpack.

[FotoTomas]

When I back pack and pack heat I tend to keep it concealed. Technically FL law allows open carry when backpacking but I prefer not scaring the sheeple and having a surprise available if I meet any two legged wolves. I also generally carry my .357 Magnum revolver in a disguised pouch in plain sight. I prefer the revolver with some snake shot and heavy loads in the same cylinder.

[GJM]

Another option is the Guides Choice Chest Holster from http://www.diamonddcustomleather.com/Chest_Holsters.php

It works very well, even with a backpack.

I have one for my 329, and it is well made, but prefer the Survival Sheath Kydex holster for a number of reasons. The Guides Choice strap/hardware arrangement in back creates a hot spot with a heavy pack, the SS is substantially lighter, and the SS locks the pistol in using typical click retention as opposed to friction and a loop with the DD.

I have a Gen 4 20 inbound, and if the OP is set on a 20, wouldbe inclined to get a Gen 4, given how well the 21's have turned out.

[JonInWA]

Two holsters that I've personally found to be quite good for use in the field are The Wilderness' Safepacker, and Bianchi's M12/UM84 flap holster (a modular system with a host of carry options).

Best, Jon

[10mm]

I like my RZ-10 for when extra power might be needed.Very accurate and I'd handload some Barnes copper HP's for bear.Solid copper bullets penetrate well and do a lot of damage.SS pistols don't rust very easy also.A glock would work also.I don't like the glock grip so never owned one.I would carry my 454 casull if I didn't want to carry an auto.My 320 grain HC bullets from a custom mold at 1650 fps would work well for bears.I'd feel safer with the 454,bears are no joke.They are tougher than hell.

[GJM]

I have owned Safepackers since they came out, and for five or more years had a Safepacker mounted to the waist band of my Dana Astroplane hunting pack, to hold a .44. Even shot a grizzly, with a 45-70, wearing that Dana pack with the Safepacker.

While the Safepacker does a great job of protecting the handgun, the weakness is when your pack comes off, so does your handgun, unless you carry a separate holster.

[LHS]

As someone who is also going to be in bear country shortly, and without a heavy pistol in my collection, I'm in a similar boat. I notice that Doubletap has a 147gr flat-point 9mm +p loading. Would that be a significant improvement over 124gr NATO ball against bears?

I don't have a very warm or fuzzy feeling about packing a 9mm, but it's either that or a .38 snubby. At least two others in the group will have heavy pistols, so I think I'd be more geared up for two-legged critters, but I wouldn't mind having a spare mag loaded up with something that would give more penetration than my usual carry ammo if the need arises.

[TGS]

As someone who is also going to be in bear country shortly, and without a heavy pistol in my collection, I'm in a similar boat. I notice that Doubletap has a 147gr flat-point 9mm +p loading. Would that be a significant improvement over 124gr NATO ball against bears?

I don't have a very warm or fuzzy feeling about packing a 9mm, but it's either that or a .38 snubby. At least two others in the group will have heavy pistols, so I think I'd be more geared up for two-legged critters, but I wouldn't mind having a spare mag loaded up with something that would give more penetration than my usual carry ammo if the need arises.

147gr has a higher sectional density than 124gr, and a flat-point will offer the greatest chance of penetrating bone without deflection.

Theoretically, yes it's a better load. I don't think I'd put "significant" in front of the word "improvement" when talking about shooting bears, though. Brown bears? Forget it. Black bears? As noted, they're usually not a problem if you're conscious about where you put your food and stuff. Of course, take what you can get. If buying/borrowing a bigger smoke-wagon isn't in the cards, then I'd at least want to have something in case I have to deal with small/medium sized animals with fangs that like to nibble on people. Of course, I just watched Liam Neeson in "The Grey" last night, so I'm all about taping broken airplane booze bottles between my fingers and going to town on a wolf. Who needs guns? :cool:

[mnealtx]

Of course, I just watched Liam Neeson in "The Grey" last night, so I'm all about taping broken airplane booze bottles between my fingers and going to town on a wolf. Who needs guns? :cool:

Some who wants a little less "bitey-bitey" in their interaction with them? Just sayin.... :cool:

[Cookie Monster]

I'm not much of a shooter but I've backpack 8,000 miles. Never worried about a black bear, been close to a bunch. In grizzly country I have carried the standard bear spray you get at REI, been close to a few but never had to hose one down with the bear spray.

There are some things you can do while cooking and camping that can reduce your chances of having to shoot one in the face. I'm always weight conscience so I won't necessarily go big on the gun. Even for a 10 day trip my pack is under 40 pounds with food and water. I'd take the gun I carry everyday backpacking and something like from Hill People Gear seems to the best way to carry, except in high heat.

People hiking long distances often say "Hike your own hike." So I'd recommend you follow that.

Cheers,

Cookie Monster

[LHS]

147gr has a higher sectional density than 124gr, and a flat-point will offer the greatest chance of penetrating bone without deflection.

Theoretically, yes it's a better load. I don't think I'd put "significant" in front of the word "improvement" when talking about shooting bears, though. Brown bears? Forget it. Black bears? As noted, they're usually not a problem if you're conscious about where you put your food and stuff. Of course, take what you can get. If buying/borrowing a bigger smoke-wagon isn't in the cards, then I'd at least want to have something in case I have to deal with small/medium sized animals with fangs that like to nibble on people. Of course, I just watched Liam Neeson in "The Grey" last night, so I'm all about taping broken airplane booze bottles between my fingers and going to town on a wolf. Who needs guns? :cool:

Unfortunately it's going to be in Grizzly country, and I don't have time or funds to get a new blaster beforehand. On the plus side, two other competent shooters will be there with larger-caliber handguns, and we're not going into the backwoods, just sticking with the roadside attractions and such, so I don't think it'll be such a big deal. We'll have a cabin, and won't be backpacking much if at all. I was just planning to carry a spare mag of NATO ball (or the Doubletap stuff if I can find it locally) in case we run into Yogi and he's in a foul mood. A 9mm may not do much, but it's better than a .38 snubby or a poke in the eye with my Benchmade. I do believe I'll pick up some bear spray while I'm there, though. I suppose the other two can be on bear duty, and I'll go all Neeson on the wolves.

BTW, did you catch the easter egg at the end of the credits in The Grey? It really adds a dimension to the ending.

[F-Trooper05]

Unfortunately it's going to be in Grizzly country, and I don't have time or funds to get a new blaster beforehand. On the plus side, two other competent shooters will be there with larger-caliber handguns, and we're not going into the backwoods, just sticking with the roadside attractions and such, so I don't think it'll be such a big deal. We'll have a cabin, and won't be backpacking much if at all. I was just planning to carry a spare mag of NATO ball (or the Doubletap stuff if I can find it locally) in case we run into Yogi and he's in a foul mood. A 9mm may not do much, but it's better than a .38 snubby or a poke in the eye with my Benchmade. I do believe I'll pick up some bear spray while I'm there, though. I suppose the other two can be on bear duty, and I'll go all Neeson on the wolves.

BTW, did you catch the easter egg at the end of the credits in The Grey? It really adds a dimension to the ending.

Get bear spray, brother. It works.

[Up1911Fan]

I'm thinking a Gen4 G20 is in my future as a wood's gun.

[GJM]

By chance, I just realized the July/August issue of Alaska Magazine has an article on the use of firearms with bears, written by Tom Smith and Stephen Herrero. Herrero wrote "Bear Attacks -- Their Causes and Avoidance," and Smith is with BYU and has written a number of things on this topic.

Interestingly there were not statistically significant difference between handguns and long guns, with 84 per cent of handgun users and 76 per cent of long gun users successfully able to stop an attack. They gave an edge to the shotgun, with 16 successes and 2 failures, but for example, a .357 handgun was successful five times, with just one failure.

I tried to find a link to it online, but couldn't.

[TGS]

By chance, I just realized the July/August issue of Alaska Magazine has an article on the use of firearms with bears, written by Tom Smith and Stephen Herrero. Herrero wrote "Bear Attacks -- Their Causes and Avoidance," and Smith is with BYU and has written a number of things on this topic.

Interestingly there were not statistically significant difference between handguns and long guns, with 84 per cent of handgun users and 76 per cent of long gun users successfully able to stop an attack. They gave an edge to the shotgun, with 16 successes and 2 failures, but for example, a .357 handgun was successful five times, with just one failure.

I tried to find a link to it online, but couldn't.

Thanks for mentioning it, that sounds interesting.

Could you talk further as to what a success is? Meaning the bear stopped attacking immediately but may have still been alive, or was the bear killed, ect.

[GJM]

The article doesn't clearly say, but my assumption (and you know what can happen when you assume) is that success is defined as stopping the attack.

Their data is a collection of 269 incidents involving 444 people, 218 brown bears, 30 black bears and 6 polar bears.

Here are a few more tidbits from the article. In the instances where firearms didn't stop the attack, in 27 per cent of the cases, the person couldn't get a shot off in time, in 13 per cent of these cases, the gun malfunctioned, in 9 per cent the shooter missed the bear, in 3 per cent the shooter tripped or fell, and in 17 per cent the shooter just didn't shoot, despite being able to.

[iakdrago]

Thank you for all the input again. I think i will go with glock 20 (gen 4) and hill people's runner rig.

[JConn]

A Glock 20 is definitely on my "someday when I give into my impulse buying mood" list. I carry my 9 when camping. It's better than nothing.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

[daltona117]

A Glock 20 is definitely on my "someday when I give into my impulse buying mood" list. I carry my 9 when camping. It's better than nothing.


Just gave into that impulse myself. Picked up a Gen3 G20 a few weeks ago. Gotta say, you won't be disappointed with it if you get one. With such a variety of different types of ammo out there for the 10mm, its a pretty neat and handy pistol to have, IMO.

[DakPara]

While I have not encountered a bear, I have a G20SF with a 6" Glock Factory barrel. The most powerful factory loads I can find are 180 gr Buffalo Bore about 800 ft-lbs of ME. I like the idea of those 16 rounds in the gun.

With the standard length barrel is it one of my EDCs and a home defense gun.

I have been eyeing a Smith & Wesson 629 recently though.

Of course if you thought a bear encounter was a real possibility, the biggest rifle you could carry would trump just about anything.