Firm grip = flinch low left. WTF [Archive]

matto

12-05-2020, 04:02 PM

JRV

12-05-2020, 06:21 PM

How "new" is new?

You cannot learn the fundamentals of marksmanship from people on an internet forum or from videos. It'd be like trying to learn how to drive a manual transmission on YouTube. You cannot feel the clutch, you cannot feel the shifter, you cannot feel the way the engine is revving.

You need an experienced and reputable instructor that can watch you in-person, and you need to experience the tangible benefits of technique adjustments in real life.

If you're a new shooter, you have no experiential basis for diagnosing what the gun is doing, what it should look like when the shot breaks, what it should look like as you track sights through recoil. You cannot know what you don't know. If you don't know what you're supposed to feel and see, shooting a hundred or even a thousand rounds will provide you with no benefit. You can dryfire every night and livefire twice a week but have no clue how to self-diagnose errors.

Flinching low-left is very common for right-handed shooters. It's a combination of two things: squeezing all your fingers together when you pull the trigger ("milking"/not isolating trigger finger movement) and trying to muscle through recoil. You're doing those things because you don't know what a proper trigger press feels like, you don't know what a proper grip feels like, and you don't know what controlling recoil actually looks and feels like.

Every dollar that you spend on range time, until you invest in some live in-person instruction from a reputable instructor, will be largely wasted money. You might eventually figure it out, but you would be no different than a kid burning out clutch after clutch trying to learn to drive stick autodidactically. If you tell the forum where you are located, people might have recommendations for good instructors in your area.

Sharkbite

12-05-2020, 06:27 PM

Get thee to a living, breathing instructor! Anyone worth their salt can get you sorted out in short order in person. Sage advice has been given above, Please follow it!

jd950

12-05-2020, 06:47 PM

Your profile does not say where you are located. I know it is a longshot, but if you are near me, I am an instructor and primarily do basic/new shooter and remedial leo stuff, and would be willing to spend an hour at the range getting you sorted out on grip and trigger.

ETA, I meant without any charge in case that wasn't evident.

HCM

12-05-2020, 07:44 PM

I'm a new shooter and everything I've read about gripping a gun seems to make me a worse shooter.

I've developed a nasty flinch where I shoot low left. I tried improving my grip, watching video after video... but it only got worse.

I discovered that it's the grip is causing the flinch. If I completely relax my grip and let the gun recoil my shots are great. But as soon as I try to grip the gun firmly or even think about resisting recoil I'll start flinching hitting low left really badly. I need all the tension out of my arms and hands and I'm fine.

I'm thinking I need to just go with what is working for a while - shoot with a relaxed grip and learn to watch the sight go up and back. Then after a few thousand rounds slowly learn to increase the grip pressure.

Has anyone else had this happen?

You keep saying "grip." but with which hand ? or both ?

There are two schools of thought on grip. One is crush grip with both hands, the other is crush grip with the support hand relaxed grip with the firing hand.

This is a common issue. Gun Videos are like assholes, everybody has one.

However if you want to understand what is going on and why watch this one then seek out some 1 on 1 professional instruction, either in person or via a video session.

https://youtu.be/eETQjJQT68w

Clusterfrack

12-05-2020, 07:54 PM

matto, a pre-ignition push ("pushing down on the gun") can happen for a few reasons. Are you shooting multiple shots and maybe trying for fast splits? Or are you just shooting a single shot?

matto

12-05-2020, 08:33 PM

How "new" is new?

4,000 rounds new.

You need an experienced and reputable instructor that can watch you in-person, and you need to experience the tangible benefits of technique adjustments in real life.
If I knew an expert to help me I'd hire them in a second. Any idea how to find a good one? I'm roughly 1.5 hours north of NYC.

I did have one in-person lesson. They taught generic stuff. But from what I've read it's not easy to diagnose and fix a flinch. This is even mentioned in the video referenced below - that many instructors have never experienced it and don't know how to correct it.

I have what looks to be a good grip. If I fire slowly so there's a surprise break, I have fantastic accuracy. And I recently discovered that if I fire quickly I'm also decent - as long as I keep my arm and arm muscles mostly relaxed. Clamp down on the grip at all (even with just the left hand) and I'm low, left, or both.

matto

12-05-2020, 08:37 PM

You keep saying "grip." but with which hand ? or both ?

There are two schools of thought on grip. One is crush grip with both hands, the other is crush grip with the support hand relaxed grip with the firing hand.
I've tried various combos. Just left, both, etc. So far my takeaway is that any tension at all allows the flinch to manifest. Relaxation keeps it at bay.

video
Thanks very much, I'll watch it now.

matto

12-05-2020, 08:41 PM

matto, a pre-ignition push ("pushing down on the gun") can happen for a few reasons. Are you shooting multiple shots and maybe trying for fast splits? Or are you just shooting a single shot?
I'm talking single shot.

If I shoot really slowly, so I'm surprised by the break, I hit dead center.
If I keep my arms and hands relaxed, I can pull the trigger with more urgency and still hit center
If I try to grip the gun firmly at all, or even thing of resisting recoil, my accuacy goes to complete sh!t

matto

12-05-2020, 08:52 PM

Your profile does not say where you are located. I know it is a longshot, but if you are near me, I am an instructor and primarily do basic/new shooter and remedial leo stuff, and would be willing to spend an hour at the range getting you sorted out on grip and trigger.

Thanks man for the offer. But yeah we're not close. If you're in the southern NY area, let me know? ;)

pangloss

12-05-2020, 09:13 PM

I hit low and left for years. Some things that helped me were 1) keeping a really tight grip with my support hand 2) relaxing my trigger hand/finger 3) shooting at 2" dot instead of silhouettes. Relaxing the trigger hand/finger is the tricky part. I just kind of let my mind go empty and focus on the sights. The part of the pistol that I "feel" the most is where my left (support) hand that presses against the edge of the backstrap. Hitting the 2" dots took a lot of concentration at first. It's easier than it was a year ago and I'm faster. I spent lots of time shooting at 3x5 notecards too, but for whatever reason the dots have helped me more than the cards did. I'm by no means a great shooter, but I'm a lot better than I was a couple of years ago--even one year ago.

Also, pay attention to where the bullet impacts relative to your sights. If you think the bullet should hit top of the front sight at 7", but the sights are really set for "drive the dot" at that range, then you'll always shoot low regardless of your flinch. It took me longer to fully appreciate this last point that it should have.

Lastly, shoot some ball and dummy drills. Load a mag with alternating live and dummy rounds. Shoot a live round, "shoot" a dummy round, tap rack, shoot a live round, repeat. This is not fun, but I think it helps. Right now I have a friend with a terrible flinch, but he refuses to do this because of how much it highlights his flaws, which, of course, is the point of doing it.

NoTacTravis

12-05-2020, 09:13 PM

4,000 rounds new...

But from what I've read it's not easy to diagnose and fix a flinch. This is even mentioned in the video referenced below - that many instructors have never experienced it and don't know how to correct it.

I'm a newer shooter than you but have a couple of thoughts on your post...

It is NOT difficult to diagnose a flinch. You just did and you're a new shooter. It's also a super common problem. I can't imagine that any reputable instructor hasn't seen it in their students and helped their students with it. Fixing it is considered "difficult" because it can take a lot of work on the part of the student.

I consider pre-ignition push to be the biggest area of improvement I need to work on personally as well and as a right handed shooter I also flinch my shots low and left although I'm generally able to keep them in the 10 ring on "The Test" drill at 10 yards now.

The two drills that have been helping me the most are:

1) Dryfire- Trigger control at speed
2) Live fire- Alternate Ball and dummy

Better to google these than have me describe them.

In my first month of shooting I was also frustrated by my low left flinch and noticed that a super light grip was yielding me a lot of X ring shots at my beginner distances. Wasting my time on two range sessions shooting that way only served to let me know I needed to fix my flinch and properly train/practice my shooting grip.

Generally my first cold shot of the day at the time was a "bullseye" and then the flinch would crop up and worsen as my session continued in those first months.

matto

12-05-2020, 09:13 PM

https://youtu.be/eETQjJQT68w

Wow, that video was great, thank you. His points lined up exactly with my experiences.

It is not a trigger pull issue (where my trigger finger causes the gun to go off target). I have no problem with dry fire. But once I start live firing, the tactile response to my brain of the trigger about to break, and I flinch
His solutions were mostly mental. Yes, he said the weak hand support can help minimize the damage, but most if it was tricking your brain to not be able to react before the gun goes bang
I've observed that more of a firm wall the trigger has, the worse I shoot the gun. On a DA/SA gun I do as well with the DA as the SA because it's just along linear pull and at some point you're surprised by a break. But give me a gun with a firm wall to push through and I'm terrible

Unfortunately, he admitted it's not easy to fix - he continues to struggle with it. He also points out that a lot of instructors don't understand it and don't know what to do with it.

I'm quite pleased that I've already figured out how to mitigate it by keeping my grip more relaxed. I hoping I can work from there and build some positive muscle memory, and slowly start adding in more and more grip - left hand first.

Clusterfrack

12-05-2020, 09:18 PM

I'm talking single shot.

If I shoot really slowly, so I'm surprised by the break, I hit dead center.
If I keep my arms and hands relaxed, I can pull the trigger with more urgency and still hit center
If I try to grip the gun firmly at all, or even thing of resisting recoil, my accuacy goes to complete sh!t

A lot of people have confusion between gripping the gun hard and returning the gun after recoil. These are not the same thing, and aren't directly related unless the gun is slipping inside the grip, or the grip is coming apart. Gripping the gun hard doesn't "fight recoil" or return the gun. It can reduce flip, but locking the wrists has more effect.

You need to use your muscles to return the gun to the target after the first shot. This should happen after the first shot is fired and before the second one. So, there's some critical timing that has to happen. That gets tricky when you try to shoot fast splits, like in the doubles drill. As you're learning to do this, sometimes the timing is wrong and you fire after you push the gun down, or you fire before the gun returns. This isn't a flinch. It's part of the learning process. As you develop your grip, stance, and relaxation, the amount of force needed gets smaller, and it starts to feel like "just letting the recoil happen".

Here's a quote from Hwansik: "Most pistols have a high bore axis. Mixing in physics, when we fire the gun, there will be an upward force created by the leverage related to the bore axis and the grip axis. If the operator doesn’t push the gun down, the gun will stop higher than the original spot after a shot."

There's some really good info about this on the PSTG, but it's behind a paywall.
https://www.practicalshootingtraininggroup.com/topic/measurement-drill/

JRV

12-05-2020, 09:23 PM

4,000 rounds new.

So about a year's worth of shooting? That's a little over 300 rounds per month. Just long enough to develop some bad habits.

If I knew an expert to help me I'd hire them in a second. I've an in person lesson. I find they teach generic stuff. But from what I've read it's not easy to diagnose and fix a flinch. This is even mentioned in the video referenced below - that many instructors have never experienced it and don't know how to correct it.

Sounds like you're around Poughkeepsie. If I were you, I'd check the regional training section of PF and see if anyone south of Albany or in West Connecticut holds or has attended classes. Another option will be checking with your local USPSA club(s). If you have local GMs, they'll either be instructors or know good instructors. If I can impart any helpful information over the internet... most "instructors" that teach carry classes or work at gun ranges are absolute garbage. They can teach a class of people to hit a big B27 target at 7 yards without probably shooting themselves. They have little-to-no diagnostic skills or experience, and very few have taken classes from real, nationally- or regionally-recognized instructors.

If an instructor says they cannot fix a low-left flinch, they have no clue what they're talking about. Consequently, most people on local gun forums have no clue what they're talking about. PF has a much lower signal-to-noise ratio. "Low-left" is such a common problem with students that it's a meme.

Fixing "milking" requires an understanding of how hard you should be grasping. Most people have no clue how to hold a gun, they just know what the grip looks like. You cannot feel me grabbing your hand over the internet. If I was doing a one-on-one training session with you, I would literally place my hand over your strong hand to show you how much force you should be applying. I would also show you how hard to squeeze your support hand by literally squeezing my hand over yours.

No one can explain to you what a proper grip feels like, and until you feel one, you have no framework for "firm, but light enough to allow trigger finger isolation" on the strong hand and "absolutely crushing in order to minimize the effects of human error" on the support hand. A proper grip will prevent, or at least ameliorate, milking with the strong hand. But, those descriptions are just words until you actually feel what they mean.

Flinches are easy to fix in-person. Flinches are usually one of two things: anticipation of concussion/recoil or a prophylactic attempt to control recoil. Sometimes, it's a combo of both. I used to have students just dump rounds in the berm five or six at a time, after learning a proper grip and athletic stance, until they saw a flash sight picture and sight-tracking in recoil. Shooting at a cadence without worrying about the accuracy helps people experience (1) concussion inoculation (a big component of flinches... when a student says they finally saw the sight pictures tracking through recoil, that means their eyes stayed open for the first time) and (2) how little muscle is needed, post-ignition, to get a return to zero. It's impossible to maintain pre-ignition pushes while shooting a string at cadence.

I have what looks to be a good grip. If I fire slowly so there's a surprise break, I have fantastic accuracy. And I recently discovered that if I fire quickly I'm also decent - as long as I keep my arm and arm muscles mostly relaxed. Clamp down on the grip at all (even with just the left hand) and I'm low, left, or both.

You said it. You have what looks to be a good grip. It is not, however, a good grip. You should never have to fire with a "surprise break." You should be in control at all times. A surprise break is not in control. A proper grip imparts control.

Good luck on your search for an instructor!

Yung

12-05-2020, 09:24 PM

If I knew an expert to help me I'd hire them in a second. Any idea how to find a good one? I'm roughly 1.5 hours north of NYC.

Onsight Firearms Training are solid folks from what I hear, and should be fairly close to you.
https://oftllc.us/events/category/new-york/list/
https://oftllc.us/our-instructors/

David Jenkins is further north but he has one of the most extensive training and instruction backgrounds in your state, to include a good chunk of it from Onsight.
https://safeinrochester.com/
https://safeinrochester.com/team/david-jenkins/

One of our esteemed members, David S., created and continues to develop Firearms Training Hub, which is a very handy reference to locate quality classes around the country.
https://www.firearmstraininghub.com/all-classes/

matto

12-05-2020, 09:26 PM

It is NOT difficult to diagnose a flinch.

Right, I should have said "fix".

The two drills that have been helping me the most are:

1) Dryfire- Trigger control at speed
2) Live fire- Alternate Ball and dummy

Thanks for sharing your experiences! I did a ton of dry fire. I had my pistol for about 6 weeks before having access to a range, and I spent that time dry firing. I'm not sure it was a good use of time. I learned how to minimize disturbance to the sights. But once the gun started going *bang* my brain freaked out and now flinches.

I'll try more ball and dummy drills and see what happens. At first I thought these were the magic ticket. But as he points out in the video above, its not as simple as "don't move on the click". A downward dip *after* the click isn't bad. It's only the pre-click dip that is a problem. There are other videos that say the same - If your goal is to be motionless on the *click* then you will suck at double taps.

matto

12-05-2020, 09:42 PM

So about a year's worth of shooting? That's a little over 300 rounds per month. Just long enough to develop some bad habits.
Two months :D So about 500/week. And I wasted the first 6 weeks of that dumping ammo hoping to magically get better. It included several competitions (USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge) - mostly because it was the only way to get range time. The club allowed non-members to shoot competitions, but not show up to practice with a target. :rolleyes:

Then I gained membership to a range so I spent the last 2 weeks focused on diagnosing my problems. I identified the flinch and started working on fixing it. I'm already a lot better now that I figured out the problem.

most "instructors" that teach carry classes or work at gun ranges are absolute garbage. They can teach a class of people to hit a big B27 target at 7 yards without probably shooting themselves. They have little-to-no diagnostic skills or experience, and very few have taken classes from real, nationally- or regionally-recognized instructors.
This is my experience as well. Pulling one random local instructor out of a hat is almost guaranteed to be less helpful than youtube + internet forum discussions.

But that doesn't mean I should try to find a good one. I appreciate the pointers.

Flinches are easy to fix in-person. Flinches are usually one of two things: anticipation of concussion/recoil or a prophylactic attempt to control recoil. Sometimes, it's a combo of both. I used to have students just dump rounds in the berm five or six at a time, after learning a proper grip and athletic stance, until they saw a flash sight picture and sight-tracking in recoil. Shooting at a cadence without worrying about the accuracy helps people experience (1) concussion inoculation (a big component of flinches... when a student says they finally saw the sight pictures tracking through recoil, that means their eyes stayed open for the first time) and (2) how little muscle is needed, post-ignition, to get a return to zero. It's impossible to maintain pre-ignition pushes while shooting a string at cadence.

See? This little gem of wisdom is the kind of thing you find on the internet. :cool: Thanks. I'm going to give it a try.

I forgot to add - what helped me most so far is focusing on not blinking, and watching the sights go up and down. Big difference. I'm still failing when I "grip" the gun, but I'll try gripping with just the left hand and see how it goes.

Also - Bob Vogel talks here about how to grip with your strong hand here. Not "like a monkey grabs a hammer", but with a "pinch grip". But I find it makes no difference for me (so far) in terms of the flinch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=688tyvWxaYg&feature=youtu.be&t=90

NoTacTravis

12-05-2020, 09:47 PM

My understanding of the ida behind Ball and Dummy is that it slowly convinces your brain that the round that goes bang is really the same thing as the one that goes click. Think of it like the auditory version of the visual learning problem of learning to shoot with both eyes open for people who see two images and over time merge them into a single one.

Round goes BANG! and maybe you flinched. Next one is done within 3 seconds and just goes "click". Your brain realizes it didn't need to flinch even though all the other inputs were the same. Take a pause before the next live round so the shots don't all run together. Your brain over time starts seeing the click and the bang as the same thing. You're showing it immediately after the BANG! that "nope it's really no big deal. Just a click. Nothing to flinch at here."

^At least this is the interpretation of the drill that I've been operating on for the last few months.

Personally I try to do a 10 round mag with 5 and 5 after every single drill that's all live ammo. For me it's a little by little accumulation week by week of my brain not differentiating between click and bang.

..oh and dryfire is your friend. Translating my dryfire progress to live fire progress has been the other major focus of my efforts these days. Dryfiring at the range in addition to at home has been the biggest help to me linking them together so that my live fire looks more like my dryfire hero self of undisturbed sights.

matto

12-05-2020, 09:53 PM

My understanding of the ida behind Ball and Dummy

...

Dryfiring at the range in addition to at home has been the biggest help to me linking them together so that my live fire looks more like my dryfire hero self of undisturbed sights.

I'm sold. I think my problem with dry fire was doing 6 weeks of it with zero life fire. Once I started the live fire, it became a whole new thing.

I'm going to:

1. Do a shit load of ball and dummy...
2. Do dry firing *at the range* between mags.

FYI: Langdon also has a pretty good video on trigger on recoil anticipation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StE60VgxR74

I've been doing his "poor man ball and dummy drill" and it helped a little..... maybe?

matto

12-05-2020, 10:00 PM

Onsight Firearms Training are solid folks from what I hear, and should be fairly close to you.
https://oftllc.us/events/category/new-york/list/
https://oftllc.us/our-instructors/

David Jenkins is further north but he has one of the most extensive training and instruction backgrounds in your state, to include a good chunk of it from Onsight.
https://safeinrochester.com/
https://safeinrochester.com/team/david-jenkins/

One of our esteemed members, David S., created and continues to develop Firearms Training Hub, which is a very handy reference to locate quality classes around the country.
https://www.firearmstraininghub.com/all-classes/

Awesome thank you. Ironically enough I'm actually already signed up for a group defensive shotgun class with Onsight. I'll reach out to them to ask about a 1-1 pistol session. (EDIT: Already setup a lesson)

David sounds great but Rochester is a looong ways away.

matto

12-06-2020, 02:23 PM

Holy crap, holy crap, holy crap.

Cliff notes:

Today I tried everything but nothing helped. I gave up in despair and shot my .22lr Browning Buckmark for 30 minutes. After that I magically shot 9mm fine. OMBWTFBBQ.

Full version:

I went to the range and tried everything: shoot the berm, watch the sights go up and down, ball and dummy (with mostly dummies) dry fire between shots. Here's a good thread on this subject with lots of other folks experiences btw: https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/211112-best-fix-for-anticipating-recoil/?tab=comments#comment-2347231

However, after 2 hours of trying all those drills, nothing helped at all. All my targets looked like a comet tail headed low left. And the more tired I got it only seemed to get worse. I was really frustrated so I decided to stop.

I was demoralized so I decided to see how well I could shoot with my 22 Buckmark - and I confirmed that I shoot it just fine. This was my second target that I shot at medium speed (not fast but not super slow surprise break either). No signs of problems pulling the gun off target with my trigger finger or flinching.

64218

This was the third target shooting the Buckmark at a much faster pace. Still awesome (for me).

64219

At this point I concluded that I need to give up on 9mm and just focus on 22 (steel challenge, etc). If some day I find an instructor who can fix me, fine, but until then I'm done wasting 9mm ammo.

I decided to shoot one more 9mm target to take a picture to document how crappy I am with 9mm. I would show it to the instructor to argue it's not a trigger issue but a 9mm recoil-anticipation problem. And this is what I shot.

64220

HOLY CRAP WTF? It's a little high but that group is A+++ compared to the garbage I had been shooting for the previous 2 hours. I proceeded to repeat it a several more times with similar results. Firm grip, loose grip, I had no issues with low-left. I even shot a whole mag at a fast pace with good results.

So while I'm elated that I suddenly stopped anticipating, I'm still a little concerned that it's still mostly out of my control. It's not something I did differently. My subconscious brain activity just decided to stop anticipating and ruining my day. For all I know it will be back the next time I shoot. But hopefully if I continue to shoot the 22 a lot the pattern and muscle memory will get ingrained and become permanent.

Jared

12-06-2020, 08:17 PM

MGW

12-06-2020, 08:24 PM

Assuming your mechanics are good.

I have to constantly work on correcting preignition push. Shooting 22 helps. Shooting pellet guns helps.

What has probably helped me more than anything is what Langdon taught in the video linked previously. Intentional ball and dummy where I know when the dummy round is coming. I’ve also used this with a lot of success with other shooter.

I’ve used dryfire on the range in between live fire.

I’ve also been known to double up my ear pro. That has helped.

Believe it or not working on relaxing my face and neck muscles has helped too. Squinting in particular seems to encourage flinching.

matto

12-06-2020, 08:40 PM

I didn’t see it mentioned what 9mm you are shooting, but is it a model that you can acquire a 22 conversion kit for?

CZ 75 Shadow, so yes I suppose I could get the Kadet kit. I suspect shooting my 22 pistols will work just as well though?

Believe it or not working on relaxing my face and neck muscles has helped too. Squinting in particular seems to encourage flinching.

YES! I discovered that the anticipation was coming from from my arms and shoulders, not my wrists. My entire arms moved downward. And for whatever reason, having any tension in my body was allowing it to manifest. Relaxing everything from the top down was what allowed me to start shooting better as I mentioned in the original post. I think maybe it was like pretentioning the pathway so the flinch made it to my hands just a millisecond earlier when I was tensed up.

I also found that I was more relaxed with both eyes open. Closing one eye takes tension and made it harder to follow the sights.

It's funny because if you watch Jerry Miculek videos on shooting fast he teaches to tighten up everything (he specifically mentions the arms) to resist recoil. Maybe some day I'll get there, but for now that advice is wreaking havok.

nycnoob

12-06-2020, 09:25 PM

Also consider taking classes with Chris Fry: https://www.mdtstraining.com/
He is also deep into combatives with Craig Douglas if you wish to go in that direction.

I had a similar incident to yours this fall.

I was teaching a female friend of mine to shoot a G19
and she had hellatious flinch. She could not keep the bullets on the paper at 10 yards.
and could not see her flinch. I gave her a heavy revolver (S&W Model 66) with a red dot.
After just a few cylinders she went back to the Glock and was able to call her shots
and fix her problem. I think the heavy long trigger helped her see what she was doing.

Jared

12-06-2020, 09:26 PM

CZ 75 Shadow, so yes I suppose I could get the Kadet kit. I suspect shooting my 22 pistols will work just as well though?

YES! I discovered that the anticipation was coming from from my arms and shoulders, not my wrists. My entire arms moved downward. And for whatever reason, having any tension in my body was allowing it to manifest. Relaxing everything from the top down was what allowed me to start shooting better as I mentioned in the original post. I think maybe it was like pretentioning the pathway so the flinch made it to my hands just a millisecond earlier when I was tensed up.

I also found that I was more relaxed with both eyes open. Closing one eye takes tension and made it harder to follow the sights.

It's funny because if you watch Jerry Miculek videos on shooting fast he teaches to tighten up everything (he specifically mentions the arms) to resist recoil. Maybe some day I'll get there, but for now that advice is wreaking havok.

Big advantage to the 22 kit is that it’s the exact same trigger you’re using normally.

I do not find excess tension to be helpful at all and have struggled with it myself. Learn to grip the gun, lock the wrists, but otherwise relax. Yes, it’s tough. Finding an instructor will absolutely shorten the process.

rca90gsx

12-07-2020, 04:45 PM

A lot of great advice in this thread. Dry fire at speed is a great drill to utilize, it will help with sympatheticly moving the trigger with your whole hand (tensing up firing hand) i had this issue during live fire. I had to tell myself the recoil is going to happen, do not fight it, locked wrists, really strong support hand grip, firing hand with just enough tension to hold on so the grip doesn't slip around. I would do the measurement drill by hwansik kim to learn to let it recoil and then you return it. Not fighting it. In addition, video'ing the range time and watching it in slow motion will help you to see. Pay attention ti the last round slide lock back, doors it recoil up and stop like learning to do in the measurement drill?

I didn’t see it mentioned what 9mm you are shooting, but is it a model that you can acquire a 22 conversion kit for? I’ve found rimfire practice to be of great value over the years. Some folks disagree with me on that, and make valid points, but I’ve never felt like a session with a 22 was wasted.

Clusterfrack

12-07-2020, 05:15 PM

I do not find excess tension to be helpful at all...

This is really important, and I'm really glad you posted about it. As in other fighting arts, tension in the right places at the right times is necessary. But for me, tension is usually detrimental otherwise. I think people get tense because of unfamiliarity or because they are mimicking styles that cause tension. Often, and especially in males, tension comes from trying to look manly while shooting a gun.

Jared

12-07-2020, 06:38 PM

This is really important, and I'm really glad you posted about it. As in other fighting arts, tension in the right places at the right times is necessary. But for me, tension is usually detrimental otherwise. I think people get tense because of unfamiliarity or because they are mimicking styles that cause tension. Often, and especially in males, tension comes from trying to look manly while shooting a gun.

I know for me it was rooted in two things:

1: Trying to hold the gun absolutely perfectly still, frozen in place. Then I’d press the trigger S-L-O-W-L-Y, just building and building tension until I finally got a Bang. Jeez, no wonder I shot like shit. Learning to trust a wobble zone and working on my trigger control helped a ton.

2: Trying way too hard to completely eliminate muzzle flip. I’d try to crush the gun to death worrying that a few degrees of muzzle rise was a critical error.

Those two factors together did little for my shooting but make me miss. One dry fire drill that really helped me was holding the gun, and pulling the trigger during the start beep without disturbing the sights. Doing that helped me a ton and taught me a lot about how much tension to apply and with what muscles.

ETA: I also found “The Test” and 25 Yard Bill Drills to be very helpful live.

JRV

12-07-2020, 08:03 PM

Often, and especially in males, tension comes from trying to look manly while shooting a gun.

Or having your first exposure to pistol shooting come from a LE academy.

Butts back, shoulders scrunched to the ears, arms locked, “flinch reaction/body index” nonsense. The whole line looked like a jazzercise class mid-squat.

Be flexible, be mobile, head stays up, gun comes to the eyeline, and let grip strength, visual feedback, and experience with cadence drive the pace.

Clusterfrack

12-07-2020, 08:31 PM

....“flinch reaction/body index” nonsense. The whole line looked like a jazzercise class mid-squat.

LOL!

NoTacTravis

12-07-2020, 08:33 PM

An earlier poster mentioned doubled plugging. I wanted to chime back in to second that. Double plugging made an immediate BIG difference in my flinch. I totally forgot about it until I read the previous poster mention it. That and shooting outside vs. inside. Less perceived bang, less flinch from me. I imagine it's similar to what you're seeing with the .22 vs. 9mm

Another quick thought. You mentioned "mainly dummy rounds" in the mag. I know it sounds very similar but that is a very different drill than the alternating ball and dummy drill. Knowing exactly which is the live round and then following immediately with the dummy is the key part of the progress to that drill to my understanding. I wasted a lot of time with random ball and dummy "surprises" in the mag and made much faster progress with Ball, Dummy, Ball, Dummy... shot as a 1...2...pause, 1...2...pause.

Also, two quick questions for the OP...

1) What distance were those last targets you posted at? If I was putting up targets like that at 10 yards I'd be looking to add speed and splits at the same distance by practicing doubles to check my grip.

2) You mention "medium speed" and "much faster". Is that 1 second splits? 0.5 splits? Faster than that for "much faster pace"? (might be about time to get a shot timer if you don't have one yet)

Personally, a truly light grip leaves me splitting at over a second per shot if I just let the gun fall back into place on its own and I can't get into the 0.2's unless I really crank down on the gun. But I've also got under 4k rounds downrange so that's not necessarily advice to take to heart unless seconded by the more experienced on here.

Doc_Glock

12-07-2020, 08:59 PM

Wow, that video was great, thank you. His points lined up exactly with my experiences.

It is not a trigger pull issue (where my trigger finger causes the gun to go off target). I have no problem with dry fire. But once I start live firing, the tactile response to my brain of the trigger about to break, and I flinch
His solutions were mostly mental. Yes, he said the weak hand support can help minimize the damage, but most if it was tricking your brain to not be able to react before the gun goes bang
I've observed that more of a firm wall the trigger has, the worse I shoot the gun. On a DA/SA gun I do as well with the DA as the SA because it's just along linear pull and at some point you're surprised by a break. But give me a gun with a firm wall to push through and I'm terrible

Unfortunately, he admitted it's not easy to fix - he continues to struggle with it. He also points out that a lot of instructors don't understand it and don't know what to do with it.

I'm quite pleased that I've already figured out how to mitigate it by keeping my grip more relaxed. I hoping I can work from there and build some positive muscle memory, and slowly start adding in more and more grip - left hand first.

You have a lot of insight and are well on your way to becoming an excellent shooter.

This is also a nice drill:

https://youtu.be/CtKFCyupJ_0

I also found it helpful to do a drill where you pull the trigger almost to the break then let off. Do this multiple times slowly increasing pressure until the shot finally breaks. You should not know which press will break the shot and it will be dead center.

JCN

01-17-2021, 12:44 AM

Wait, did you self diagnose and correct your issue without a live instructor but just with your powers of observation, Internet chatter and YouTube videos?!! :D

You will go far with powers of observation and experimentation. That’s what makes this sport great.

I love my Kadet kits BTW! I mocked one up to better simulate the weight of my competition gun for transition training and memory stage practice.

66273

Mark D

01-17-2021, 06:26 PM

I like ball and dummy, and do it almost every range session. I don't alternative live and dummy rounds - I just randomly load my magazine while staring into the distance and thinking deep thoughts. And I insert the mag into the pistol with my eyes closed, so I don't see the rounds at the top of the mag. That way I don't know when the dummy rounds are coming. I use 5 - 6 dummies per mag.

Ernest Langdon's "Load One Shoot 2" drill (also called the "Poor Man's Ball and Dummy Drill") is good if you don't have dummy rounds, or picking up the dummy rounds is problematic (long grass etc.) However, it's predictable because the second trigger press will always yield a "click".

Shooting heavier calibers is a good way to acquire a flinch, in my experience, so I suggest sticking with softer shooting calibers.

Good luck.

Bergeron

01-18-2021, 12:17 AM

I think the conversation about tension is a great one, and as long as we're showing various useful videos, I liked this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEBd3ColVJ0&t=1375s

The details offered were that the only really tensioned part of the grip was in wrists, and the exceprt with Ron Avery about "sticky" grip was also great. My hope in my shooting is to have a grip that is strong from structure more than muscular tension. Mike Seeklander's advice on grip, focusing on pushing the palms past one another, seems to help me in the tense wrists, relaxed hands and arms, strong grip that I'm working on achieving.

I'm a big fan of ball and dummy, and of shooting rimfire. When I first got into pistol shooting, I had a consistent and hugely frustrating low left problem. Once I decided to only shoot randomly mixed ball and dummy, and to switch back and forth between rimfire and centerfire in shooting session, the low left went way.