Why aren't there better sub-compact DA/SA options?

[matto]

DA/SA is really appealing to me for a lot of reasons. Particularly for carying aiwb. But sll of the DA/SA options tend to be midsized. CZ P07, P01, etc. These are the size of a glock 19, and significantly heavier than a glock 19.

With striker fired we have an entire class of guns that doesn't exist in the hammer fired world. Sig p365/p365xl, glock 43/43x, etc.

I bought a P-01 and I absolutely love it. But it's additional weight and size is noticeable over a smaller gun.

Why aren't there more hammer fired options in the subcompact world? The best option I know of is the PX4 Storm compact. But it's damn near the same weight and size as a P07 yet has only a 3.3" barrel. Ewwe

I ordered a sig P365XL to have a lighter carry gun, but I really like thumbing the hammer on the CZ and have mixed feelings about carrying the Sig aiwb since it doesn't have that option.

The closest option I know of is a glock with the little plate on the back that you can thumb to prevent a negligent discharge. Maybe I need to suck it up and enter the glock world?

[Cory]

DA/SA are more complex action mechanisms in my understanding. They simply have more stuff to fit in.

There is the Springfield Xd-e model available from Langdon Tactical. I'll agree that this is a hole in the market, albeit rather niche. Most who value the DA first pull are willing to deal with all DA pulls in subcompact guns. That lends to small revolvers, Kahr, and stuff like that being used more than DA/SA stuff I think.

[olstyn]

Walther P99c. It's striker-fired, but it's DA/SA and roughly identical to a G26 in size. DA is a smooth 9-ish pounds, and the SA is essentially identical to the PPQ trigger.

[pastaslinger]

I no longer see a lot of point in subcompacts if we are talking about appendix carry, not to say there isn't value in overall small guns and thin guns though. One issue I can see is the mainspring having far less space in a subcompact potentially causing issues like awful triggers.

[Clusterfrack]

I no longer see a lot of point in subcompacts if we are talking about appendix carry...

^^^This. With a modern AIWB holster like the JMCK wing claw 2.5, a P-07 carries so easily that I almost never bother with anything else. I haven't carried anything but a P-07 or a snubby (LCR 9mm) in over a year*.

I still have an irrational desire for a CZ Rami.

*Wait. That's not true. I have a G26 that serves a particular purpose in a particular place, and is easy-on / easy-off. But I don't find the 26 any easier to carry, and I shoot the P-07 measurably better.

[Wheeler]

DA/SA is really appealing to me for a lot of reasons. Particularly for carying aiwb. But sll of the DA/SA options tend to be midsized. CZ P07, P01, etc. These are the size of a glock 19, and significantly heavier than a glock 19.

With striker fired we have an entire class of guns that doesn't exist in the hammer fired world. Sig p365/p365xl, glock 43/43x, etc.

I bought a P-01 and I absolutely love it. But it's additional weight and size is noticeable over a smaller gun.

Why aren't there more hammer fired options in the subcompact world? The best option I know of is the PX4 Storm compact. But it's damn near the same weight and size as a P07 yet has only a 3.3" barrel. Ewwe

I ordered a sig P365XL to have a lighter carry gun, but I really like thumbing the hammer on the CZ and have mixed feelings about carrying the Sig aiwb since it doesn't have that option.

The closest option I know of is a glock with the little plate on the back that you can thumb to prevent a negligent discharge. Maybe I need to suck it up and enter the glock world?


There isn't a perceived, significant demand that would induce the manufacturers to pursue the engineering and marketing.

[matto]

^^^This. With a modern AIWB holster like the JMCK wing claw 2.5, a P-07 carries so easily that I almost never bother with anything else.

I wanted a keepers holster for my P-01 but they don't make one. I bought a Vedder Lighttuck for my P-01 and Ruger SR9C. I love it for the Ruger but not so much for the P-01. It not bad but I can't say that the gun disappears.

Maybe I should try a JMCK for my P01 (and P07 when it arrives)

[Duelist]

S&W Chiefs Specials based on the 3913/4013 were very much what it sounds like you are looking for, but have been out of production for some time. There is a spot in my safe reserved for a couple of them, if I ever find one I can afford.

[OlongJohnson]

I've had my P250s apart, and I see no reason that action couldn't be packaged into a P365 size gun. Make it a P265XL and I'd be all over it.

Packaging and trigger niceness does seem to be a thing. SP101s apparently have a shorter spring strut stroke than GPs, so are believed to require an inherently heavier pull weight to stay reliable. USP Compacts have a shorter spring strut and aren't quite as slick as full sizes.

I've talked with Frank Glenn about the DAO 3rd gen Smiths and he said in all the work he did with them back in the day, any significant lightening of the press was incompatible with sufficient ignition reliability. I was specifically asking about DAOs, so I don't know whether that still applies to the non-DAO models.

[TheNewbie]

I don't AIWB, so I would like a thinner/smaller DA/SA option.

[Spartan1980]

DA/SA is really appealing to me for a lot of reasons. Particularly for carying aiwb. But sll of the DA/SA options tend to be midsized. CZ P07, P01, etc. These are the size of a glock 19, and significantly heavier than a glock 19.

With striker fired we have an entire class of guns that doesn't exist in the hammer fired world. Sig p365/p365xl, glock 43/43x, etc.

I bought a P-01 and I absolutely love it. But it's additional weight and size is noticeable over a smaller gun.

Why aren't there more hammer fired options in the subcompact world? The best option I know of is the PX4 Storm compact. But it's damn near the same weight and size as a P07 yet has only a 3.3" barrel. Ewwe

I ordered a sig P365XL to have a lighter carry gun, but I really like thumbing the hammer on the CZ and have mixed feelings about carrying the Sig aiwb since it doesn't have that option.

The closest option I know of is a glock with the little plate on the back that you can thumb to prevent a negligent discharge. Maybe I need to suck it up and enter the glock world?

You might test drive a H&K P30. Not sub-compact as it's actually a DA/SA (V3 version) G19 (basically identical in size), polymer frame and all.

[pangloss]

HK P30SK in a JMCK Wing Claw 2.5 is a good option, especially with the 13 round mags, though obviously a double stack pistol. My problem is that I buy a gun and sometimes a holster and then just keep carrying my Glock 19 (or sometimes a 26 or 43). I'd like to get a P-07 someday. I should probably buy some standard cap mags while I can. I wish that Beretta would make a thinned down version of the M92 Type M in G configuration. Problem solved.

[JN01]

There is the CZ 2075 RAMI.

[David S.]

Ernest Langdon has worked over the Springfield XD-E. (https://www.langdontactical.com/products/guns/xd-e/)

I shot a few rounds through a one several months back. It didn't do anything for me, but I'm also satisfied with my J-frame/P-07/P-09 carry rotation.

Beretta also makes the PX4sc (https://www.beretta.com/en-us/px4-storm-subcompact/) that's G26 sized. It seems well liked by the PX4 groupies. All seven of them. ;)

[guitarsampsandguns]

Agreed 100%!

Thinner da/sa options would be great. Right now there is no competition for springfield xde which isn't great. Its ok and nice that there is the langdon version.

I'd love to see for example sig release new version of p239 that takes p365 magazines. While at it, a p938 version that also takes p365 magazines would be cool. A new subcompact SP2022 polymer series that also took p365 magazines for lighter option.

Then maybe beretta could make a 92g subcompact that's thinner and barrel is shorter then the current compact. Have it use a p365 type magazine. Perhaps also release a striker fired model that's direct competition for p365 at same time using same magazine.

Perhaps Arex might release a rex zero 1 compact or subcompact that's thinner.

[guitarsampsandguns]

I no longer see a lot of point in subcompacts if we are talking about appendix carry, not to say there isn't value in overall small guns and thin guns though. One issue I can see is the mainspring having far less space in a subcompact potentially causing issues like awful triggers.

A p225 that takes p365 magazines or perhaps takes sheild arms glock 43x/48 magazines would be a nice compact option.

[guitarsampsandguns]

There is the CZ 2075 RAMI.

Those aren't exactly thin right? If they released new a single stack version or thinned down version with double or stack and half mag would be cool. A thinned down p01 or p07 might be nice too.

These days having thinner da/sa options for those that prefer to carry carry a thinner pistol or to have for times that would prefer a thinner option.

[Bigghoss]

Why aren't there more hammer fired options in the subcompact world? The best option I know of is the PX4 Storm compact. But it's damn near the same weight and size as a P07 yet has only a 3.3" barrel. Ewwe


There's also the PX4 subcompact. It's a little bit bigger than a Glock 26. Sounds like it's bigger than you're looking for but it is smaller than the compact.

[TheNewbie]

There's also the PX4 subcompact. It's a little bit bigger than a Glock 26. Sounds like it's bigger than you're looking for but it is smaller than the compact.

Like the M&P subcompact size?

[Jared]

OP: Yes you definitely should try JM Custom Kydex as Clusterfrack advised. Email Tony (the owner of JM) and tell him what you’re wanting to hide and where you’re wanting to hide it. You should probably mention if you’re shorter or taller longer torso, all that stuff. He’s always had excellent answers for me when I needed help.

All the halfway viable answers I know of for subcompact DA/SAs are the PX4 subcompact, the P30SK, the Walther P99C, and the Springfield XD-e. I wouldn’t have and XD-e unless it was purchased from @Langdon_Tactical.

Why aren’t there more? Market demand. Everyone pretty much wants striker fired pistols and the demand doesn’t really justify the investment expense for most makers. Smith and Wesson used to make the 3913 and 3953 for example, but market forces ended it.

[Bucky]

I haven’t seen the P2000SK mentioned. I think that’s a little less bulky than a PX4 sub compact.

The Beretta 9000 was pretty compact as far as I recall, but stay far away from that turd.

[matto]

There's also the PX4 subcompact. It's a little bit bigger than a Glock 26. Sounds like it's bigger than you're looking for but it is smaller than the compact.My issue with the PX4 is that it weighs as much as a P07, is almost as large, and yet has a 3.3" Barrel. But I guess if it's somehow significantly more comfortable than a P07 maybe that's still OK.

[matto]

My problem is that I buy a gun and sometimes a holster and then just keep carrying my Glock 19 (or sometimes a 26 or 43)

I've been trying to avoid glocks for various reasons.. But when I compare the P07 and G48 - they are the same length, but the G48 is much lighter (7 oz less is huge), is thinner, has a much longer barrel (4.17 vs 3.75). Those are seriously impressive specs. And you can buy a striker control back plate to be safe when reholstering.

Arg... I might need to get sucked into the dark side.

[CraigS]

While it's not DA/SA the Shield EZ might interest you because it is an internal hammer trigger. Going from a striker to a hammer is how S&W got the effort needed to rack the slide so low.

[Zincwarrior]

Walther P99c. It's striker-fired, but it's DA/SA and roughly identical to a G26 in size. DA is a smooth 9-ish pounds, and the SA is essentially identical to the PPQ trigger.

Hey let's not forgot the unforgettable Walther PPK! Bersa has a version as well.

[Duelist]

I've been trying to avoid glocks for various reasons.. But when I compare the P07 and G48 - they are the same length, but the G48 is much lighter (7 oz less is huge), is thinner, has a much longer barrel (4.17 vs 3.75). Those are seriously impressive specs. And you can buy a striker control back plate to be safe when reholstering.

Arg... I might need to get sucked into the dark side.

That’s kinda what happened to me. I was carrying a 3913, competing with a CZ75 that I swapped for a 92A1, and pocket carrying a 642. At one point, I had a 3913, 3913LS, 3953 (pair and a spare), and 4516-1 (because Sonny Crocket and .45 ACP), and was looking for a 5906 in a condition I could live with for a price that didn’t give me heartburn.

I went through several small guns trying to find something (1) still in current production, (2) lighter and a bit smaller than a 3913 or 4516, (3) with more capacity than a 642, (4) that still worked reliably (5) that I could run safely.

A brand new pistol that everyone seems to love (that I was seriously liking) barfed on me with less than 200 rounds through it. I had just ordered an original SCD from Tom so I could see how it worked for myself, and in disgust, swapped my brand new gun for a used G26.3. I cleaned and lubed it, installed the SCD, and ran over 2000 rounds through it without cleaning it again. I had *no* weapon-related malfunctions. A couple of steel cased Russians and one aluminum cased Independence rounds didn’t work right, but when you buy a bunch of crap ammo and it doesn’t all work right, you can’t blame the gun.

I accidentally dunked it one day. Detail stripped, dried, lubed, and reassembled with instructions from a 5 minute YouTube video.

It’s lighter than a 3913 and a bit more compact (but fatter in some ways). It holds anywhere from 11 rounds up to 34. I can thumb the back of the slide on the SCD to replicate the DA hammers on my revolvers and TDA pistols.

Damn it, said I, the dark side *does* have cookies. And they’re actually *good*!

[45dotACP]

I don't actually own a subcompact handgun. I'm either carrying a LCP in the pocket, or I carry a pistol AIWB in a JMCK holster.

I think I posted a photo some while ago which was me carrying a CZ-P07 with only a rash guard on and still it was concealed.

With that level of concealment, I see no real reason to go smaller for a belt carried pistol. That said, if I weren't carrying appendix I'd probably look at something like a P30SK

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[matto]

I don't actually own a subcompact handgun. I'm either carrying a LCP in the pocket, or I carry a pistol AIWB in a JMCK holster.

I think I posted a photo some while ago which was me carrying a CZ-P07 with only a rash guard on and still it was concealed.


Make sense in terms of length. But weight and width still play a roll with aiwb. Taking 7 oz off the weight if your P07 wouldn't provide any added comfort?

[P30]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/HK_P2000_SK.jpg/640px-HK_P2000_SK.jpg
hk-usa.com/hk-models/p2000-sk (https://hk-usa.com/hk-models/p2000-sk/)

Not sub-compact enough?

PS:
Oh, it was already mentioned in #21 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?45744-Why-aren-t-there-better-sub-compact-DA-SA-options&p=1151149&viewfull=1#post1151149). I've seen that only after my post.

[45dotACP]

Make sense in terms of length. But weight and width still play a roll with aiwb. Taking 7 oz off the weight if your P07 wouldn't provide any added comfort?Possibly it would, but I tend to carry a 1911 nowadays so I probably am not the best person to speak on how much my carry gun weighs :D


Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[olstyn]

Hey let's not forgot the unforgettable Walther PPK! Bersa has a version as well.

I've never actually shot a PPK, but I keep hearing about how the DA trigger is absurdly heavy and the slide will slice open your hand, plus .380 is the biggest caliber they come in, so overall not a great option IMO. YMMV of course. :)

[Clusterfrack]

I've been trying to avoid glocks for various reasons.. But when I compare the P07 and G48 - they are the same length, but the G48 is much lighter (7 oz less is huge), is thinner, has a much longer barrel (4.17 vs 3.75). Those are seriously impressive specs. And you can buy a striker control back plate to be safe when reholstering.

Arg... I might need to get sucked into the dark side.

I think a G48 with a SCD is a good option--as are the G43 and G26. I've settled on CZs and Glocks as my main 'platforms'. Both are well-designed, reliable, robust to dirty conditions, mechanically simple, and spare parts are cheap and easy to find. The grip angles are similar enough that my index is precise with both. I used a G43 as my deep concealment gun until I jumped on the snubby bandwagon.

[Bigghoss]

Like the M&P subcompact size?
I think so. Never had an M&P subcompact.


My issue with the PX4 is that it weighs as much as a P07, is almost as large, and yet has a 3.3" Barrel. But I guess if it's somehow significantly more comfortable than a P07 maybe that's still OK.

Are you talking about the [i][b]compact[\i][\b] or the [i][b]sub[\i][\b]compact? I'm talking about the subcompact.

[JAH 3rd]

I like my HK P2000 9mm. 13+1 Partial to DA/SA.

https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/heckler-koch-p2000-vs-glock-g19

[Zincwarrior]

Also the Commie Makarov.

[Zincwarrior]

I've never actually shot a PPK, but I keep hearing about how the DA trigger is absurdly heavy and the slide will slice open your hand, plus .380 is the biggest caliber they come in, so overall not a great option IMO. YMMV of course. :)
Those are issues indeed.

[Duke]

Tda sucks and the die hard sub compact guy isn’t going to train enough to master it


And tda sucks.

[matto]

I think so. Never had an M&P subcompact.



Are you talking about the [i][b]compact[\i][\b] or the [i][b]sub[\i][\b]compact? I'm talking about the subcompact.Ahhh, yes I was thinking the PX4 compact.

[Spartan1980]

I think a G48 with a SCD is a good option--as are the G43 and G26. I've settled on CZs and Glocks as my main 'platforms'. Both are well-designed, reliable, robust to dirty conditions, mechanically simple, and spare parts are cheap and easy to find. The grip angles are similar enough that my index is precise with both. I used a G43 as my deep concealment gun until I jumped on the snubby bandwagon.

I got to fondle a friends G48 with Shield Arms mags. It makes a damned compelling argument for replacing my S&W 9 Shield as a main carry gun.

[Navin Johnson]

Tda sucks and the die hard sub compact guy isn’t going to train enough to master it


And tda sucks.

Is that a Beretta in the avatar?

[Navin Johnson]

Couldn't empty my wallet fast enough if S&W made and supported the 39xx guns again.

[Duelist]

Is that a Beretta in the avatar?

You know it is!!

[Guerrero]

Tda sucks and the die hard sub compact guy isn’t going to train enough to master it


And tda sucks.

Wow... tell us how you *really* feel, Mr. "I earned a FAST coin with a TDA pistol."

;)

[MolonLabe416]

SiG P225a1. Which is of course now discontinued.

[MattyD380]

I've never actually shot a PPK, but I keep hearing about how the DA trigger is absurdly heavy and the slide will slice open your hand, plus .380 is the biggest caliber they come in, so overall not a great option IMO. YMMV of course. :)

I found my PPK to be very accurate (i.e., I found it easy to shoot really tight groups). But it was quirky... dropped mags when shooting. Had a FTF when firing from a topped-off mag. And yes, the DA was horrible on my 1973 example... and it hurt to shoot. I sold it. Don't miss it. My guess is the new ones assembled in Forth Smith are better. But still... I think a PPK is probably just better suited to 7.65. And of course they're not offering that.

In my opinion, the Makarov PM is the best of the DA/SA blowbacks. My 1962 EG is every bit as accurate as my PPK, more reliable, more powerful and more comfortable to shoot. It's a little bigger than a PPK... but still very slender and concealable.

[RJ]

I no longer see a lot of point in subcompacts if we are talking about appendix carry, not to say there isn't value in overall small guns and thin guns though.

Yep.


There isn't a perceived, significant demand that would induce the manufacturers to pursue the engineering and marketing.

Yep.

Not sure I would agree with Duke that TDA sucks. But the point about training with it, I’d agree with. At some higher than average skill level (above mine, that’s for sure) one can probably run one well. But few shooters are (say) A class or better, and there are fewer still Ernest Langdons out there.

There was a novice next to me at my last class shooting a TDA of some kind, Sig maybe. He was very proud of it. He could not get a first hit on target for nothing. At lunch he asked the instructor, what should I do? He was told ‘sell it and buy a modern pistol.” :cool:

Lastly, in the spirit of ‘lighting a candle’ I got a lot of good info out of this older thread from 2016:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25459-What-are-the-BENEFITS-of-Two-Different-Trigger-Pulls

[Duelist]

I found my PPK to be very accurate (i.e., I found it easy to shoot really tight groups). But it was quirky... dropped mags when shooting. Had a FTF when firing from a topped-off mag. And yes, the DA was horrible on my 1973 example... and it hurt to shoot. I sold it. Don't miss it. My guess is the new ones assembled in Forth Smith are better. But still... I think a PPK is probably just better suited to 7.65. And of course they're not offering that.

In my opinion, the Makarov PM is the best of the DA/SA blowbacks. My 1962 EG is every bit as accurate as my PPK, more reliable, more powerful and more comfortable to shoot. It's a little bigger than a PPK... but still very slender and concealable.

A 3913 is every bit as thin and concealable as a PM, and has a much nicer trigger, and is more powerful. :)

[Cory]

Tda sucks and the die hard sub compact guy isn’t going to train enough to master it


And tda sucks.

Dude, I love you. :p

I'm over here thinking deep thoughts about my 92s, people management triggers, and exactly how to get the absolute most out of my guns...

And then you bring reality. Work fuckin' harder. Regardless of gun, I think the "train enough to master it" is the bigger part of that sentence. If you train enough to acheive mastery, I think the tool becomes largely irrelevant. I'm gonna keep working on it with my 92s cause they're what I have, what I like, and it's just financially smarter. But I need to be more honest with myself about what the goal is (mastery) and what training enough to get there actually looks like.

[MattyD380]

A 3913 is every bit as thin and concealable as a PM, and has a much nicer trigger, and is more powerful. :)

I wanted to love my 3913TSW. It carried great. Reliable. I just didn't shoot it that well. I've kinda wanted to get another one, to give it another shot. But... the P239 works well for me. Though it is slightly fatter.

Still, I think the blowback/"spring-around-the-barrel" architecture of Maks and PPKs gives them an inherent dimensional advantage. In a Kahr holster, my PM is great to carry. And... so is the Kahr. But we're talking DA/SA...

[Zincwarrior]

A 3913 is every bit as thin and concealable as a PM, and has a much nicer trigger, and is more powerful. :)

Are these made and imported to the US?

[Polecat]

Dare I say redesign the P250 maybe a tweener, like between p365 and subcompact? The old Sphinx 2000 offered a subcompact Cz75 if you will, and they offered a subcompact Alpha, which to mee resembled a smaller P07. It fet great in the hand. I would like to see more of these offered as well and plenty of room in the market. I wonder what Sig will do with the 2022, if it will get redesigned and updated and the line expanded?

[P30]

Is that a Beretta in the avatar?
There is also a FAST coin (https://pistol-training.com/fastest) in the avatar.

[olstyn]

Not sure I would agree with Duke that TDA sucks. But the point about training with it, I’d agree with. At some higher than average skill level (above mine, that’s for sure) one can probably run one well. But few shooters are (say) A class or better, and there are fewer still Ernest Langdons out there.

I think people make a bigger deal of this than it truly is. Do you have to put in a little bit of work to get decent results with TDA?

Yes.

Is it an insurmountable problem for people who aren't going to put in thousands upon thousands of hours of training and become A class or higher?

Speaking as a sample size of one, I'd say no - I'm only at the upper end of C class in Production. (I've had a few classifier scores that have crept into B class territory, but to date, never enough in a row to actually get me out of C.) I get good hits with a TDA pistol out of the holster roughly X times/match where X is the number of stages, and that was true even when I was a U and then a D. I did a decent amount of dry DA presses/wall drill early on in order to get used to how the trigger worked, but beyond that, nothing special.

TDA is not rocket surgery - it's just learning to pull the trigger straight back without disturbing the sights too much...or, you know, learning to shoot a pistol. Much like every a manual transmission car's clutch is a little bit different from every other one, every trigger is a little bit different, right? I would be willing to bet that if we spent an hour on the range together with you shooting my P99 and me shooting one of your Glocks, we'd both be able to at least be baseline competent by the end of the hour. (I have never live fired a Glock, and have only dry fired one or two of them briefly.) The trouble is that we'd have to do everything from the low ready because you're wrong-handed so none of the holsters would transfer. Well, that and you're in FL. :)

[RJ]

I think people make a bigger deal of this than it truly is. Do you have to put in a little bit of work to get decent results with TDA?

Yes.

Is it an insurmountable problem for people who aren't going to put in thousands upon thousands of hours of training and become A class or higher?

Speaking as a sample size of one, I'd say no - I'm only at the upper end of C class in Production. (I've had a few classifier scores that have crept into B class territory, but to date, never enough in a row to actually get me out of C.) I get good hits with a TDA pistol out of the holster roughly X times/match where X is the number of stages, and that was true even when I was a U and then a D. I did a decent amount of dry DA presses/wall drill early on in order to get used to how the trigger worked, but beyond that, nothing special.

TDA is not rocket surgery - it's just learning to pull the trigger straight back without disturbing the sights too much...or, you know, learning to shoot a pistol. Much like every a manual transmission car's clutch is a little bit different from every other one, every trigger is a little bit different, right? I would be willing to bet that if we spent an hour on the range together with you shooting my P99 and me shooting one of your Glocks, we'd both be able to at least be baseline competent by the end of the hour. (I have never live fired a Glock, and have only dry fired one or two of them briefly.) The trouble is that we'd have to do everything from the low ready because you're wrong-handed so none of the holsters would transfer. Well, that and you're in FL. :)

I gotcha, no worries. It's all good. :)

But in the interest of spirited debate, let me ask the broader question, that I asked in 2016, again: (this isn't aimed at "you" olstyn specifically, but to everybody in the thread.)

If you are a .civ shooter, and not law enforcement or military, what are the benefits of having a TDA, i.e. a pistol with a stiff first trigger pull and a lighter one for all subsequent shots? Why would you opt for additional cost and complexity of a TDA over a SFA design? Why would you want to "do a little bit of work" if you didn't have to? Wouldn't that time be better spent in mastering trigger control?

[MattyD380]

There was a novice next to me at my last class shooting a TDA of some kind, Sig maybe. He was very proud of it. He could not get a first hit on target for nothing. At lunch he asked the instructor, what should I do? He was told ‘sell it and buy a modern pistol.” :cool:

Lastly, in the spirit of ‘lighting a candle’ I got a lot of good info out of this older thread from 2016:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25459-What-are-the-BENEFITS-of-Two-Different-Trigger-Pulls

Here's a different take on it...

My wife is a novice. She comes to the range with me, sometimes. I hand her a 92, a PX4, BHP, 1911 (even in .45) she puts groups on paper at 10 yards. Not super tight, but shot groupings nonetheless. A Glock? She hits... the paper.

If she decocks the 92? Yeah, she sucks with it. But she doesn't shoot it any worse than she does a Glock--and a Glock's trigger doesn't get better.

Not to pick on Glocks--I know they shoot well in the hands of "a master"--but Glocks and M&Ps comprise the vast majority of pistols I see at local ranges. And just about every target looks like they're shooting a sawed-off shotgun. Hypothesis: they'd shoot better with TDA guns, thanks to the SA capability; and they wouldn't shoot much worse on the first shot than they already do.

[Guerrero]

RJ it's a "decision-making" trigger when you need to make decisions, and a "shooting" trigger when you need to shoot.

[olstyn]

Why would you want to "do a little bit of work" if you didn't have to? Wouldn't that time be better spent in mastering trigger control?

For me personally, I was primarily concerned with safety when I was a new shooter, and right or wrong (no matter how much research we do, none of us really know what we don't know at that stage), I thought that TDA was how that concern fit best in my world, so I went to some gun shows and gun shops, put my hands on various TDA guns (IIRC I was looking primarily at SIG, HK, and Walther), and decided that the Walther offerings fit my hands best. (Again, don't know what you don't know at that point, but it seems to have worked out for me.)

As far as "doing a little bit of work" goes, it's my view that you have to do a little bit of work to learn any trigger, except possibly the straight-up cheat mode that is a tuned 2011. (If anybody ever offers to let you shoot theirs, say yes - it's a whole different experience.) Like I said, I did wall drill until I was satisfied that I could mostly not move the sights in DA, then went to the range and confirmed that it had worked. YMMV of course, but I feel like once you learn the DA trigger, the SA part is pretty easy.

[RJ]

Here's a different take on it...

My wife is a novice. She comes to the range with me, sometimes. I hand her a 92, a PX4, BHP, 1911 (even in .45) she puts groups on paper at 10 yards. Not super tight, but shot groupings nonetheless. A Glock? She hits... the paper.

If she decocks the 92? Yeah, she sucks with it. But she doesn't shoot it any worse than she does a Glock--and a Glock's trigger doesn't get better.

Not to pick on Glocks--I know they shoot well in the hands of "a master"--but Glocks and M&Ps comprise the vast majority of pistols I see at local ranges. And just about every target looks like they're shooting a sawed-off shotgun. Hypothesis: they'd shoot better with TDA guns, thanks to the SA capability; and they wouldn't shoot much worse on the first shot than they already do.

Most people I see at the square range suck. We must shoot at the same range because I see the same shotgun targets. Hell it amazes me people can put rounds into the target carriers, or worse, the damn ceiling.

My wife has a P365. She has taken one class beyond basic CCW. That gun fits her very well. She does not Dry Practice, nor is she interested in taking any more training classes. But she can put 5/5 rounds inside a 5" circle at 5 yards, cold, consistently, with 115 Gold Dots. She's not going to put in the effort to learn a TDA, it's just not going to happen. I would submit that for "most" new shooters, which judging by 2020 gun sales is a huge amount, are better paired up with a modern SFA gun whether it be a Glock, a S&W, Sig, anything, really, than a TDA pistol.


Hell why are we even arguing. 99% of people that buy a gun will shoot it once, if at all, then put it in the sock drawer. I should probably get back to Dry Practice. I'll shut up now. :cool:

[RJ]

RJ it's a "decision-making" trigger when you need to make decisions, and a "shooting" trigger when you need to shoot.

Ok, just one more comment: The counter argument to the "stiff" trigger is that a "stiff" trigger is not a barrier to shooting. From what I recall, the "startle" reflex easily can overcome even the stiffest DA pull.

What's importance in terms of "threat management" and more of a detterent to a ND/AD/UD is the length of the press, not it's weight, as I've been told...?

Hence me trying to work through a P30SK LEM V1, with a relatively light 1" press, from around 2015 to 2017. I ended up selling it because I could not mentally come to grips with it. (I will freely admit that shooting a VP9 in USPSA and attempting to carry the P30SK was a stupid idea. Maybe if I'd have bought a P30 LEM V1 and messed with the springs, I might have done better. But I didn't know then what I (barely) know now...but what might have been...:)

64144

PS did you get the WiFi stuff sorted out?

[MattyD380]

If you are a .civ shooter, and not law enforcement or military, what are the benefits of having a TDA, i.e. a pistol with a stiff first trigger pull and a lighter one for all subsequent shots? Why would you opt for additional cost and complexity of a TDA over a SFA design? Why would you want to "do a little bit of work" if you didn't have to? Wouldn't that time be better spent in mastering trigger control?

I see TDA as a compromise.

You give up a little precision on the first shot so you can carry the gun in a safer, more "de-escalated" condition--but it's still ready to shoot, when/if you need it. Then... you get a single action gun. Which, objectively, shoots better than just about any other action. I like Guererro's take on it as a "decision making" trigger. I had a recent situation where I drew my gun; the added "detente" of DA was a comfort. No shots were fired.

Another thing...

I get the sense there's this... expectation... of experiencing zero change in accuracy between the first and second shot (with TDA). I guess I just never saw it like that; I never expected that from that system. To put it another way: if a DA "crunch" was intended to shoot as well as an SA "tick"--why even include SA on the gun? And that's a rhetorical question... I believe the answer is that SA gives most people greater accuracy.

[Navin Johnson]

There is also a FAST coin (https://pistol-training.com/fastest) in the avatar.

Right.....with a sucky DA to boot......

[BehindBlueI's]

I get the sense there's this... expectation... of experiencing zero change in accuracy between the first and second shot (with TDA). I guess I just never saw it like that; I never expected that from that system. To put it another way: if a DA "crunch" was intended to shoot as well as an SA "tick"--why even include SA on the gun? And that's a rhetorical question... I believe the answer is that SA gives most people greater accuracy.

I expected, and received, the same level of accuracy on DA and SA when I was shooting them a lot. I'm sure I suck ass now because it's such a perishable skill and I haven't messed with TDA for awhile. What was different was the time it took to get that accuracy, the splits.

Not particularly impressive to many here, but I did a 9 shot group (one magazine +1 in the chamber) from a P220 into a 1" square at 10y with a decock between shots. It was reaaal slow fire. It required so much concentration I was tired when I was done and had sweat on my forehead. But I did it. So I do expect the same accuracy, just not the same splits.

[olstyn]

I expected, and received, the same level of accuracy on DA and SA when I was shooting them a lot. I'm sure I suck ass now because it's such a perishable skill and I haven't messed with TDA for awhile. What was different was the time it took to get that accuracy, the splits.

Not particularly impressive to many here, but I did a 9 shot group (one magazine +1 in the chamber) from a P220 into a 1" square at 10y with a decock between shots. It was reaaal slow fire. It required so much concentration I was tired when I was done and had sweat on my forehead. But I did it. So I do expect the same accuracy, just not the same splits.

I strongly doubt I could replicate that performance...because I don't think I could do it in SA either, but who knows, maybe with enough forehead sweat. :)

I think your point about slower splits (or really maybe just slower trigger press, since every shot after the first should be easier/faster) is very well taken, though, an I think that's where a lot of the "people management/safety" benefit to TDA comes in - you're required to be more careful with that first shot, and you know it.

[MattyD380]

My wife has a P365. She has taken one class beyond basic CCW. That gun fits her very well. She does not Dry Practice, nor is she interested in taking any more training classes. But she can put 5/5 rounds inside a 5" circle at 5 yards, cold, consistently, with 115 Gold Dots. She's not going to put in the effort to learn a TDA, it's just not going to happen. I would submit that for "most" new shooters, which judging by 2020 gun sales is a huge amount, are better paired up with a modern SFA gun whether it be a Glock, a S&W, Sig, anything, really, than a TDA pistol.


Hell why are we even arguing. 99% of people that buy a gun will shoot it once, if at all, then put it in the sock drawer. I should probably get back to Dry Practice. I'll shut up now. :cool:

Haha. No, it's an interesting discussion.

Obviously one should go with a gun they shoot well with and feel safe/comfortable with, regardless of other factors. But... I'd venture to say that a P365, like the rest of the 320 line, is an SAO gun. So, again, people shoot SA better than DA. And better than half-cocked strikers, like Glocks. Personally, I'd want a safety on such guns... but... that's a whole different conversation, I suppose.

My argument for TDA is that you're getting a superior/easier to shoot trigger for all but the first shot... and for most shooters, they're probably not gaining a whole of accuracy on that first shot, by staying with a Glock, M&P, etc. For a P320, VP9, PPQ, yeah, those mitigate the typically mushy SFA trigger AND the heavy first pull... but... I feel like you lose some measure of safety, without a manual safety. This is all theoretical, of course. But if not for theoretical discourse on guns... what is Pistol Forum for?

[BehindBlueI's]

I strongly doubt I could replicate that performance...because I don't think I could do it in SA either, but who knows, maybe with enough forehead sweat. :)


I was just trying to see what a particular load would do and realized I had something big going on at the personal skill level. I almost stopped after 5 shots until I saw what I'd done. Note this was a zero stakes situation. I was on an indoor range completely alone with nothing on the line...but it remains one of my most cherished "personal best" moments.

[Jared]

Haha. No, it's an interesting discussion.

Obviously one should go with a gun they shoot well with and feel safe/comfortable with, regardless of other factors. But... I'd venture to say that a P365, like the rest of the 320 line, is an SAO gun. So, again, people shoot SA better than DA. And better than half-cocked strikers, like Glocks. Personally, I'd want a safety on such guns... but... that's a whole different conversation, I suppose.

My argument for TDA is that you're getting a superior/easier to shoot trigger for all but the first shot... and for most shooters, they're probably not gaining a whole of accuracy on that first shot, by staying with a Glock, M&P, etc. For a P320, VP9, PPQ, yeah, those mitigate the typically mushy SFA trigger AND the heavy first pull... but... I feel like you lose some measure of safety, without a manual safety. This is all theoretical, of course. But if not for theoretical discourse on guns... what is Pistol Forum for?

I know I don’t gain anything with most striker fired triggers over what I can get on a DA shot from a good DA gun. Good DA means the trigger doesn’t stack at the end or have any nasty hitches in it. It also means reasonable in weight. I consider a Beretta 92 with a D spring to have a perfectly reasonable weight. I can manage the old standard 20# spring from the M9 pretty well as long as there’s no stacking.

For @RJ

I’ve been a TDA dude since before I found P-F. One of the reasons I loved this place initially was because I could talk TDA and not get told to go sit in the corner like some other sites did. I’ve been on a 25 yard kick the last couple of weeks, inspired by a Lucky Gunner blog post.

Last weekend I was running a 22 conversion kit on a bone stock Beretta 92F-XR. I was shooting 2” dots at 7 yards, one DA, one SA, decock and repeat. I do this a lot with the 22 kit and that gun. Anyway, I was loading the mag up for another run. The trailer I was storing my ammo on (out on the farm shooting into a backstop dad piled up with the tractor). Realized I was about 25 yards away from the IDPA target I was using as a backer. So I dropped the slide, aimed, fires a SA shot at the 4” circle on that target. Walked up there and I was about half an inch outside the circle. Ok, challenge accepted, here we go.

I didn’t shoot another 2” dot that day. I just kept slinging lead at that 4” circle, hitting it or missing it but staying in the head box. I got brave and shot a 5 shot group DA only, decocking every shot. Guess what? Couldn’t really tell the difference between that group and the ones I had shot with 5 SA shots, or the ones that had been one DA and one SA.

So “for me” the DA shot is not a hindrance to marksmanship. As a matter of fact, I’d wager that I could shoot better groups SAO, DAO, or DA/SA from a 92 or PX4 at any distance exceeding 15 yards better that “I” could shoot with any Glocks I’ve owned (including 3 different G34s). Yes, I’m probably in a tiny minority. No, I absolutely don’t expect you to emulate me (no one should ever emulate me). It’s just that even with “two separate triggers” on a TDA, I shoot both of them better than I can work a Glock trigger, or a 320 trigger, or an M&P trigger....

I also realize that means my trigger control with a SFA gun is deficient. I’m just too lazy to learn a SFA trigger when I’ve already got a setup that’s doing everything I want it to do.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I gotcha, no worries. It's all good. :)

But in the interest of spirited debate, let me ask the broader question, that I asked in 2016, again: (this isn't aimed at "you" olstyn specifically, but to everybody in the thread.)

If you are a .civ shooter, and not law enforcement or military, what are the benefits of having a TDA, i.e. a pistol with a stiff first trigger pull and a lighter one for all subsequent shots? Why would you opt for additional cost and complexity of a TDA over a SFA design? Why would you want to "do a little bit of work" if you didn't have to? Wouldn't that time be better spent in mastering trigger control?

Benefits of TDA:
1. Safety, manual of arms: With any hammer fired gun, you can see or feel the mechanical condition of the gun. With a TDA You can mechanically control this condition without putting your finger on the trigger, i.e. thumbing the hammer. This allows total confidence while reholstering, and leads to point 2.
2. Safety, mechanical: I mainly carry appendix. If the gun goes bang while reholstering (due to something getting into the trigger guard) or while holstered (due to catostrophic mechanical failure) I could DIE. the ability to thumb the hammer prevents the former possibility, and the fact the gun is mechanically decocked prevents the second. However unlikely either of these possibilities are, they could happen, and the stakes are tremendous. I carry a gun basically all the time I am not in my home, adding up to thousands upon thousands of hours. By contrast the time I spend actually shooting said gun in self defense has so far been 0 minutes. Therefore, eliminating a negative outcome while carrying/reholstering/etc. Is worth a small decrease in shootability.
3. Safety, shooting. DA is more of a "thinking trigger". I wont go into it since Dagga Boy said it best in his thread on this forum you can look up.
4. Shootability: I am not an A class shooter, not even close at this time. I find the first shot to be just as shootable as any other action type, and the DA pull allows for a bit more "agression" on the draw. There might be a small performance decrase on the first shot SHO/WHO, but thats pretty much it. However, I can shoot my guns in SA with more accuracy and speed than I can almost any striker. The strikers that I have found give equal performance to my TDA's in SA (p365xl, vp9 so far, APX fairly close) are literally single action guns with no safety, which I find to be inferior for serious use due to points 1 and 2 above.
A gadgeted Glock comes close in safety but still not as safe as a TDA, and FOR ME lags behind in shootability, especially for more precise shots.
5. Dryfire, maintaining proficiency: i dont know about you, but sometimes (ok most of the time) I dont do as much dryfire as I want to on a daily/weekly basis. However, if I am lazy I find it is more likely I will do at least a little dryfire with a TDA, since you can just continually pull the trigger, not having to worry about racking the slide each time. When I dont shoot for long periods, I typically find my DA shots are closer to my personal standards (i.e. degrade less from not shooting) than the SA shots, which is surely explained by this dry fire tendency.
6. Versatility of skill: generally speaking, if you can shoot a DA well you can shoot most anything well. I find I can switch to SAO or strikers with just a bit of familiarization, with surprisingly little performance drop in most cases. As someone who enjoys shooting lots of different types of guns, this is a big benefit to me.

In conclusion, TDA has a number of benefits, especially benefits to safety while carrying which we all do exponentially more than actually shooting. The only downside to me is slightly degraded performance on SHO/WHO first shot, and the improved performance I get from the rest of shots being SA way more than makes up for that. I dont really find it to be more work at all, since I can be more lazy and get in more dry fire reps, which I feel more than makes up for the perceived "learning two trigger pulls" which is itself mostly a nothingburger, but going into that would take another very long post.

I will say a TDA isnt a great choice for non-enthusiasts who have no interest in practicing. However, such an individual is going to suck regardless of what action type they are armed with.

[Clusterfrack]

Does this have to turn into another TDA vs. striker debate? With a TDA with a DA pull 7lbs or less, I have no problem making any shot I can in SA mode, and no slower. Heavier DAs require a bit more care, but it’s not a big deal.

The primary difference is the manual of arms of a decocker.

[Cory]

RJ and others. I'm just going to leave this here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27191-DB-diatribe-on-triggers

[Wheeler]

I gotcha, no worries. It's all good. :)

But in the interest of spirited debate, let me ask the broader question, that I asked in 2016, again: (this isn't aimed at "you" olstyn specifically, but to everybody in the thread.)

If you are a .civ shooter, and not law enforcement or military, what are the benefits of having a TDA, i.e. a pistol with a stiff first trigger pull and a lighter one for all subsequent shots? Why would you opt for additional cost and complexity of a TDA over a SFA design? Why would you want to "do a little bit of work" if you didn't have to? Wouldn't that time be better spent in mastering trigger control?

#FearNotTheDoubleActionShot (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=FearNotTheDoubleActionShot)

The DA trigger breaks at the same spot as the SA trigger on all my TDA guns. It's not really as hard as folks make it out to be. If one is having issues connecting with the All Important First Shot, then one should practice that until the problem goes away. I prefer having a DA trigger because #1 I shoot it better and #2 there just might be a time where I've suddenly realized that I don't need to shoot whom or what ever I'm pointing a gun at. I'd rather "do a little more work" than make an irreversible choice that results in a Negative Outcome.

Also, cops are civilians too. :)

[David S.]

But the point about training with it, I’d agree with. At some higher than average skill level (above mine, that’s for sure) one can probably run one well. But few shooters are (say) A class or better, and there are fewer still Ernest Langdons out there.

Data point. If you include the CZ Shadow lineup of pistols and its clones, DA/SA are not at all unique to weirdos like Mr. Langdon.

[GAP]

I know it’s boring and doesn’t bleed you financially, but you could do what I did years ago and just focus on your actual performance with G19/G26 and carry the one that best fits your lifestyle..

The weapon is you.. the tool is just something you get used to working in a specific configuration.

Especially now with the gadget available, it is basically a no-brainer for balancing safety, reliability, and value.

[HeavyDuty]

I really only shoot three TDAs these days, and none of them are primaries. (One is an honorary TDA, a P99c.) I concentrate enough on shooting them DA that I actually have to remember to shoot some of the session over the transition so I don’t have NDs from not being used to the SA pull. All three are easy to decock, so... (P220, SP2022, P99c.)

I think I could be happy living in a TDA world again. But, from a subcompact standpoint there really isn’t much out there. The XD-E is interesting, but... XD. The PX4 is to chunky for me.

[RJ]

I’ll add one more comment, in the form of an anecdote.

I was asked recently by a friend to examine his collection of stored guns to make sure they were generally ok and not rusting away quietly in the safe. He has a couple modern DA/SA guns which I was able to field strip fairly easily (USPs, one in .45 and one 9mm).

He also owned a WWII battlefield pick up P38. This was possibly a Walther, and I have no idea of the datecode stamp or S/N but would have been collected somewhere in the region of 1942-1943. It was in a leather holster marked P.08, and had a single stack 9mm heel release mag. As a pistol of that significance to the owner, I didn’t really want to mess with it too much. So I just examined the chamber and bore, oiled it lightly and wiped it down.

Checking the Action was interesting. Cycling the slide cocked the hammer. Leaving the Safety on prevented the trigger from dropping the sear. I know zip about these guns, but I guessed ‘maybe it has a decocker’ and sure enough, I rotated the safety the other way and the hammer ended up resting on the back of the slide.

I showed the owner how the gun could go from safe in the holster, to a draw, to a first heavy DA press, then subsequent SA, then if it needed to be holstered, could be done safely, by using the decocker.

It was pretty cool to do this with a gun that was probably at least 75 years old.

[claymore504]

OP: Yes you definitely should try JM Custom Kydex as Clusterfrack advised. Email Tony (the owner of JM) and tell him what you’re wanting to hide and where you’re wanting to hide it. You should probably mention if you’re shorter or taller longer torso, all that stuff. He’s always had excellent answers for me when I needed help.

All the halfway viable answers I know of for subcompact DA/SAs are the PX4 subcompact, the P30SK, the Walther P99C, and the Springfield XD-e. I wouldn’t have and XD-e unless it was purchased from @Langdon_Tactical.

Why aren’t there more? Market demand. Everyone pretty much wants striker fired pistols and the demand doesn’t really justify the investment expense for most makers. Smith and Wesson used to make the 3913 and 3953 for example, but market forces ended it.

I may need to give them a try and call and see what they say. I am a big CZ P07 fan and I have not had any luck trying to AIWB carry any handgun. I have tried my P07 and M&P Shield 9mm. I am short at 5'4"

[Duke]

Dude, I love you. :p

I'm over here thinking deep thoughts about my 92s, people management triggers, and exactly how to get the absolute most out of my guns...

And then you bring reality. Work fuckin' harder. Regardless of gun, I think the "train enough to master it" is the bigger part of that sentence. If you train enough to acheive mastery, I think the tool becomes largely irrelevant. I'm gonna keep working on it with my 92s cause they're what I have, what I like, and it's just financially smarter. But I need to be more honest with myself about what the goal is (mastery) and what training enough to get there actually looks like.

Okay. It isn’t that TDA sucks. Yes I got a coin with one. Old news. Tda helped me break a skill set plateau and for that it was a net positive.

But TDA mastery is a perishable skill. Double that on a super small gun. Triple becuase that small tda probably isn’t red dot equipped. And even E Langdon says it’s not the best for training a new shooter. There be a metric shit ton of new shooters out there.

So the real head scratcher for me is - guys with untrimmed nose hairs, dirty finger nails and such getting all nerdy about the maintaining proficiency aspect of irons only/TDA/ effective ranges of un-scoped guns etc.

At one point i was a most fervent disciple of TDA for safety, people management and all those other PF founded answers looking for a problem.

If 2020 has shown me one thing it’s the benefit of a platform that offer me an advantage - even if forced to be neglected.

Put dot on shit bag...move consistent trigger until shit bag doesn’t need any more holes.

And I sold my coin gun. Cause TDA sucks and Sentiment is totally lost on my lizard brain

Even Todd green switches to a striker gun in the end.

[Duelist]

Are these made and imported to the US?

PMs have been out of production a lot longer than S&W 3rd gens.

[Quantrill]

A lot of people have to work at shooting a stock Glock trigger well. Just for perspective.....

[matto]

To put it another way: if a DA "crunch" was intended to shoot as well as an SA "tick"--why even include SA on the gun? And that's a rhetorical question... I believe the answer is that SA gives most people greater accuracy.

In the case of drawing from your holster, there is a fundamental difference between the first shot and follow up shots. The first shot you are moving the gun away from your body and finding sight alignment. You can use this time to begin the DA pull.

In Langdon's "fear not the double action" videos, and various interviews, he argued the DA is actually an advantage for the first shot because it allows him to be really aggressive in finding and beginning the trigger press while extending to the target, without fear of a premature discharge.

Then after that of course, the remaining shots are with an awesome trigger that works well once you're extended and on target.

[Kanye Wyoming]

A single data point:

Over Thanksgiving I took my daughter’s commie boyfriend to the range for the third time. (Not really a commie, just a Democrat, but it’s more fun to call him a commie.)

He shot a G43X, VP9 and P-07. Loved the P-07 and of the three he shot it the best by far. After we worked on some DA/SA pairs, he had the transition down cold. Go figure.

[Hot Cereal]

One way to look at it, aside from the user interface experience- TDA vs Striker, as pointed out earlier is the safety aspect of a DA pistol.

It would be very difficult for a DA pistol to cock it's self and discharge it's self without any manipulation of the action. The hammer is fully at rest, not able to initiate ignition.

In a striker gun, the majority of recent entries to the market being a version of cocked and 'semi-locked' SA mechanisms, the action relies on a series of mechanical safety devices to prevent unintended discharge.

While an argument can be made that these mechanical safety devices would have to fail in unison to allow for an unintended discharge, which is rare, nigh maybe impossible, there is still a required reliance on mechanical safety devices.

I pretty much only carry the APX and M&P Shield these days. That should give you an idea of where I stand on it, but I've been reevaluating my approach since the P320 debacle. I refuse to carry a Sig P320.

As for the OP, auction and resale outlets are your friend. My pick would be a CS9 if the budget allowed.

[MattyD380]

I expected, and received, the same level of accuracy on DA and SA when I was shooting them a lot. I'm sure I suck ass now because it's such a perishable skill and I haven't messed with TDA for awhile. What was different was the time it took to get that accuracy, the splits.

Not particularly impressive to many here, but I did a 9 shot group (one magazine +1 in the chamber) from a P220 into a 1" square at 10y with a decock between shots. It was reaaal slow fire. It required so much concentration I was tired when I was done and had sweat on my forehead. But I did it. So I do expect the same accuracy, just not the same splits.

Certainly there's no physical barrier that precludes anyone from shooting all DA shots through the same hole. It can be done, and is. I've never had results quite like that. But I have surprised myself on occasion with some "all decocked" shot strings. And yes--it takes time and concentration, for sure.

That said, I just don't think that was the intended purpose of the system. I mean, we can't really ask Fritz Walther what he was thinking when he designed the PP... but... my guess is, it was something like "Yeah, it's a bit of a compromise; obviously single action is better. But hey, now you can carry one in the chamber without shooting yourself."

[Wheeler]

Certainly there's no physical barrier that precludes anyone from shooting all DA shots through the same hole. It can be done, and is. I've never had results quite like that. But I have surprised myself on occasion with some "all decocked" shot strings. And yes--it takes time and concentration, for sure.

That said, I just don't think that was the intended purpose of the system. I mean, we can't really ask Fritz Walther what he was thinking when he designed the PP... but... my guess is, it was something like "Yeah, it's a bit of a compromise; obviously single action is better. But hey, now you can carry one in the chamber without shooting yourself."

SA isn’t better, it’s just different and doesn’t highlight bad trigger discipline like DA does.

[BehindBlueI's]

SA isn’t better, it’s just different and doesn’t highlight bad trigger discipline like DA does.

I was going to say the same. SA is easier to shoot, but it's also easier to shoot. Every trigger is a compromise. Ease of firing vs safety vs reliability vs ease of manufacturing vs etc.

A DA first shot can be prepped during the presentation if the decision to shoot has already been made. I think that's the primary advantage over a DAO from a shooting standpoint, the extra time is time you're using to present the pistol and couldn't be accurately shooting yet anyway.

[Doc_Glock]

TDA is super cool. And stupid. And it has nothing to do with the DA pull.

Two different trigger pulls on one defensive gun that will be used in a panic? Stupid.

Extra decocking step after shooting before holstering after a panic situation? Stupid.

Getting “aggressive” on the DA trigger during presentation? Stupid. Setting yourself up for shooting something unintentionally with a different trigger which OMG you have the potential to have on this platform.

More parts, more to go wrong, more expensive to make.

The SA part of TDA allows one to shoot faster after the first
shot. That is it. Not more accurately, not more anything except more faster.

So: after trying everything for my own education, my serious defensive pistols are SFA or DAO with no safeties.

My TDA guns are hobby fidget spinners.

There are no small TDA guns to speak of because manufacturers and most people with common sense know it is a dumb mechanism for the masses and they just won’t sell.

The lack of more small DAO options does astound me though.

[BehindBlueI's]

TDA is super cool. And stupid. And it has nothing to do with the DA pull.

Two different trigger pulls on one defensive gun that will be used in a panic? Stupid.

Extra decocking step after shooting before holstering after a panic situation? Stupid.

Getting “aggressive” on the DA trigger during presentation? Stupid. Setting yourself up for shooting something unintentionally with a different trigger which OMG you have the potential to have on this platform.

More parts, more to go wrong, more expensive to make.

The SA part of TDA allows one to shoot faster after the first
shot. That is it. Not more accurately, not more anything except more faster.

So: after trying everything for my own education, my serious defensive pistols are SFA or DAO with no safeties.

My TDA guns are hobby fidget spinners.

There are no small TDA guns to speak of because manufacturers and most people with common sense know it is a dumb mechanism for the masses and they just won’t sell.

The lack of more small DAO options does astound me though.


Right. Because if I were to forget to decock my Sig it'd be like...well, like having a striker fired gun. Of course, if you habituate yourself to thumbing the hammer you have to screw up twice. Once forgetting to decock and twice to forget to thumb the hammer. Then you'll need a third strike of an obstructed holster. Whereas with a striker fired gun (assuming no SCD) you just need the third.

Yes, you might have to practice. I got so ingrained with decocking that when I went back to Glocks I "decocked" an imaginary lever for quite awhile until I broke the habit. It's not *that* tough to make it a subconscious reaction. Certainly no tougher then running the thumb safety on an AR.

Literally the only reason I carry a Glock is because I get one for free and I have to maintain proficiency with it. Else I'd still be carrying Sig P2XX.

[MattyD380]

SA isn’t better, it’s just different and doesn’t highlight bad trigger discipline like DA does.

Well, the vast majority of the shooting public has some bad--or sub-optimal--trigger control characteristics. Myself included. Which is why SA is a useful component on DA/SA guns. Even Blueis said his one inch DAO group surprised him. And he was probably at the apex of shooting skill, at that time.

Personally, I feel like I'm missing something on a DAO gun. Tried DAK this summer on a P239--because the logic of "why two trigger pulls?" does make sense, from a intellectual perspective. Could I hit center-body mass consistently, reasonably quickly? Sure. There was nothing about it that suggested I couldn't defend myself with it. But after I converted the gun to DA/SA, my two-shot groups--DA to SA--were faster and more accurate then letting the trigger entirely out again, and squeezing it back down again with DAK. If SA is a crutch... I'll take it every time. And I think most people would. And I think that's why the system was designed as it was.

[BehindBlueI's]

. Even Blueis said his one inch DAO group surprised him. And he was probably at the apex of shooting skill, at that time.


In fairness, I'd probably have been equally surprised/impressed with myself had it been an SAO group. Or a striker fired group. Actually more surprised with a striker fired gun. I'd probably shit myself if I did it with a Glock. I'm a little worked up just thinking about it. (EDIT: I think this is going to be a goal for myself with my newly RDS equipped Glock 45. If I can afford 9 shots. Fuck me, I need to get on the reloading bench and crank out some 9mm.)



Personally, I feel like I'm missing something on a DAO gun. Tried DAK this summer on a P239--because the logic of "why two trigger pulls?" does make sense, from a intellectual perspective.

DAK is designed to slow you down. It's specifically designed to attempt to counter the "run the trigger like a sewing machine due to stress" cyclical rate some people do under pressure. It is not, IMO, a good trigger for any purpose other then selling to liability minded agency purchasers. A good DAO trigger like, say a well tuned k-frame, well that's just fucking magic. Seriously.

[HCountyGuy]

64186

[TC215]

The last shooting we had at my old agency before getting rid of the USPs (DA/SA) was a 35 yard shot on a guy that was only exposed from his neck up. The officer shot him in the neck about 2 seconds after putting his cruiser in park.

I guess the DA shot really is less accurate...he was aiming for the suspect’s head. :rolleyes:

[Jared]

64186

Every once in a while I get the itch to get a pair of V1 P30s and just use them for carry and training. I like the LEM a lot on the samples I’ve borrowed (but never bought one sadly).

I absolutely will get a P30SK LEM at the soonest available opportunity, it’s gonna take the place of the G26 I already sold.

[BehindBlueI's]

64186

Definitely nothing wrong with it. For me, I don't want the logistics of adding H&K to my roster. Same reason I didn't buy a Langdon Beretta even though I think they are tits. I'm just too invested in Sig and Glock to want to start over with holsters, spare parts, magazines, etc.

[EVP]

I also think a HK p30sk or p2000sk would be great to fit that role.

I think the HKs are excellent for what would want in a sub-compact pistol.

[M2CattleCo]

I used to be a big time DA/SA guy with a P239 and P226, lots of time on an M9 too.

I can shoot those old things more easily and accurately than any other handgun, $3K+ 1911s included.

But.

Everything besides shooting them at stationary paper is worse.

The whole concept is just about as sound a parlor trick.

Training new shooters, which I do a lot of, is quite simply more dangerous with a TDA and I generally won’t allow it anymore. It’s not that someone *only forgets* to decock, it’s when they forget to decock the whole process has been fouled and they usually have a hard time backing up one step in the process/procedure and that’s when the fundamentals crumble and the situation quickly degrades.

[RJ]

I absolutely will get a P30SK LEM at the soonest available opportunity, it’s gonna take the place of the G26 I already sold.

If you do, I highly highly highly recommend, from personal experience, to cast whatever HK witchcraft spell is needed to get a heavier than "V1" LEM trigger. Thinking back on my experience with a P30SK LEM V1, my shooting likely would have been improved dramatically if I'd have chosen a set of springs which increased the trigger pull weight over the V1 standard (I am not sure what that weight is; I'd defer to the HK guru's here. Just heavier, is all).

The other problem I had with my P30SK is that I decided to take my first Tom Givens Rangemaster course in 2017 with it at West Coast Armory North, while we were on the road with the RV. I did not shoot it very well, because I suck, but also because of the aforementioned trigger. In addition, reloads on the clock under pressure (for which, read Tom Givens timing you with a stopwatch; talk about high stakes) were literally painful as slamming the 13 round HK magazine I had pinched my hands something awful.

Otherwise it was a great gun. I concluded it just was not the one for me for CCW. I ended up selling both the VP9 and P30SK for a Gen 5 Glock 19/26 combo, but only because the SCD was introduced for the Gen 5 Glocks that year.

[Clusterfrack]

[Facepalm] We've been through all this so many times. But for the new folks, I suppose it's worth revisiting?

IMO, TDA guns are not good guns for new shooters, or those who don't practice. The rest of your concerns are easy to address.

More expensive? A CZ P-07 costs slightly less than a Glock. An HK is a bit more. The prices are all within $100-200.

More parts, more to go wrong? That depends. Some TDA guns are quite simple. Some are extraordinarily reliable under challenging conditions. Some striker fired guns are poorly engineered, and are not reliable even under ideal conditions.

"Prepping" the trigger on presentation? The top shooters in the world don't do this, and neither do I. DB has addressed the "shooting" unintentionally issue, as have many others. A longer trigger pull reduces this concern. Some striker fired guns, including a shit ton of modded Glocks have shorter, lighter pulls than the SA pull of many TDA guns.

BehindBlueI's addressed the decocking issue above.

No really tiny TDA guns. Ok. I'll give you that.


TDA is super cool. And stupid. And it has nothing to do with the DA pull.

Two different trigger pulls on one defensive gun that will be used in a panic? Stupid.

Extra decocking step after shooting before holstering after a panic situation? Stupid.

Getting “aggressive” on the DA trigger during presentation? Stupid. Setting yourself up for shooting something unintentionally with a different trigger which OMG you have the potential to have on this platform.

More parts, more to go wrong, more expensive to make.

The SA part of TDA allows one to shoot faster after the first
shot. That is it. Not more accurately, not more anything except more faster.

So: after trying everything for my own education, my serious defensive pistols are SFA or DAO with no safeties.

My TDA guns are hobby fidget spinners.

There are no small TDA guns to speak of because manufacturers and most people with common sense know it is a dumb mechanism for the masses and they just won’t sell.

The lack of more small DAO options does astound me though.

[BehindBlueI's]

"Prepping" the trigger on presentation? The top shooters in the world don't do this, and neither do I.

Side bar: You aren't on the trigger during the press out phase of presentation? I'm certainly no top shooter, and it's been awhile since I took EL's class but I thought getting on the trigger and starting the press in the final stage of presentation was the way to do it. I get not in the presentation as in not as soon as you clear the holster, so maybe this is semantics as I consider the press out part of presentation.

[Clusterfrack]

Side bar: You aren't on the trigger during the press out phase of presentation? I'm certainly no top shooter, and it's been awhile since I took EL's class but I thought getting on the trigger and starting the press in the final stage of presentation was the way to do it. I get not in the presentation as in not as soon as you clear the holster, so maybe this is semantics as I consider the press out part of presentation.

No, I don’t. But my draw doesn’t lend itself to that because the sights align with the target only near full extension. My trigger press is the same for DA and SA. When I see what I need to see, I press all the way through.

My final stage of presentation from AIWB or strong side is an inch or two, and if the target is easy enough, I’ll commit to a shot right at the beginning of that.

Side side note. cheby and I were discussing how we have slightly better accuracy in DA than in SA these days. It’s interesting. Here’s a 1 shot from draw on 8” steel at 35 yds. I think I shot 8 in a row, all the same time within +/- 0.03s.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201206/4ed285161cf599bf23b4b038df3ef303.jpg

[BehindBlueI's]

No, I don’t. But my draw doesn’t lend itself to that because the sights align with the target only near full extension. My trigger press is the same for DA and SA. When I see what I need to see, I press all the way through.

Ah, ok. I use the "four stroke draw process" where the gun comes to the center of the chest for a body index leading to the press out. If the decision to shoot has been made and the target is close enough for a body index to have the gun on target I am not worried about an early discharge so I'll be on the trigger during that press out. It's not that it's a different press then the SA, or even striker fired, it's just accepting that I can break the shot anywhere between there and full extension but am most likely to be most accurate at full extension. That's why I prefaced with "the decision to shoot has been made" when I talked about prepping. Probably poor word choice on my part.

[olstyn]

More expensive? A CZ P-07 costs slightly less than a Glock. An HK is a bit more. The prices are all within $100-200.

Agreed. My Walther P99c was $600ish 10+ years ago, and my full size P99 was a touch over $400. The pair of them average out to ~$500 each, or just about identical to Glock pricing. HK and SIG options will be a bit more, but certainly not by any catastrophic amount.

[RJ]

This is actually turning into a pretty interesting thread.


Clusterfrack dammit man that is some pretty impressive shooting. Thumbs up.


Question: Does anybody think that CZ is working on a 10 round single stack-ish P07? Or is there such a thing and I missed it? Not that I looked at the CZ web site last night or anything. Just askin'.

[Jared]

If you do, I highly highly highly recommend, from personal experience, to cast whatever HK witchcraft spell is needed to get a heavier than "V1" LEM trigger. Thinking back on my experience with a P30SK LEM V1, my shooting likely would have been improved dramatically if I'd have chosen a set of springs which increased the trigger pull weight over the V1 standard (I am not sure what that weight is; I'd defer to the HK guru's here. Just heavier, is all).

The other problem I had with my P30SK is that I decided to take my first Tom Givens Rangemaster course in 2017 with it at West Coast Armory North, while we were on the road with the RV. I did not shoot it very well, because I suck, but also because of the aforementioned trigger. In addition, reloads on the clock under pressure (for which, read Tom Givens timing you with a stopwatch; talk about high stakes) were literally painful as slamming the 13 round HK magazine I had pinched my hands something awful.

Otherwise it was a great gun. I concluded it just was not the one for me for CCW. I ended up selling both the VP9 and P30SK for a Gen 5 Glock 19/26 combo, but only because the SCD was introduced for the Gen 5 Glocks that year.

Appreciate the heads up. I’m really just looking at the P30SK for a particular niche, a niche that I’m passionate about for my own uses and other people find to be less important. At any rate, I’ve done enough shooting with a full sized P30 V1 that I’m fairly confident I’ll be fine with the SK in box stock condition. I’m definitely not buying one until all the nonsense calms down, I’ve pretty much sworn off purchases until things at least normalize somewhat.

[Casual Friday]

The sub compact market has always been small, but it seems tiny now for reasons already mentioned. The downsides to them far outweigh the upsides in my opinion.

I like easy buttons. Glocks are easy buttons. My first handgun was a gen 3 Glock 19 in 2001 when I turned 21, good grief I'm coming up on 20 years of concealed carry, but I digress... I went through the whole "errbody on PF is shootin a Sig" days with a couple Sig Pro's and a lot of range time. I got pretty good with the TDA system.

But when life would get in the way, and those weekly range trips turned into monthly or every other, that TDA was less than optimal.

Then, when "errbody on PF is shootin a LEM", I jumped onboard too. I found LEM to be the least desirable shooting trigger of the big three.

During those TDA/LEM days, occasionally I'd shoot a striker fired gun and force myself to ignore the fact that I was shooting it at least as good if not better than the gun in my waistband. I could go longer periods of time without shooting a Glock and retain a more acceptable level of proficiency compared to taking some time off the TDA or LEM.

So back to Glock I went with a pair of gen 5 G17's in 2019. Then came the red dot. I could go into a monologue about how pistol mounted red dots are an easy button too but this isn't really a red dot thread and they've been covered already by Duke.

BTW I trim my nose hairs and eyebrows every Sunday morning and I hate having dirty fingernails.

[David S.]

Question: Does anybody think that CZ is working on a 10 round single stack-ish P07? Or is there such a thing and I missed it? Not that I looked at the CZ web site last night or anything. Just askin'.

I suspect you'll see a single stack P-10 long before you see a single stack P-07.

For what it's worth.

Glock 48: 0.87"w (based on Glock website)
Spgfld XD-e: 1.0"w ("grip width" based on Springfield website)
SIG P-365: 1.0"w (based on SIG website)
CZ P-07: 1.14"w (measured on my personal example, excluding de-cock levers)
Glock 19: 1.26"w (based on Glock website)

[RJ]

I suspect you'll see a single stack P-10 long before you see a single stack P-07.

For what it's worth.

Glock 48: 0.87"w (based on Glock website)
Spgfld XD-e: 1.0"w ("grip width" based on Springfield website)
SIG P-365: 1.0"w (based on SIG website)
CZ P-07: 1.14"w (measured on my personal example, excluding de-cock levers)
Glock 19: 1.26"w (based on Glock website)

Oddly enough, this came up on another forum, and I measured the following on three places on the slide yesterday on our two small blasters:

Glock 48 - 0.871, 0.878, 0.879
P365- 0.902, 0.939, 0.922

[Clusterfrack]

This is actually turning into a pretty interesting thread.


Clusterfrack dammit man that is some pretty impressive shooting. Thumbs up.


Question: Does anybody think that CZ is working on a 10 round single stack-ish P07? Or is there such a thing and I missed it? Not that I looked at the CZ web site last night or anything. Just askin'.

I agree. Who would have thought there was more to discuss about TDAs vs. other guns? Deep rabbit hole.

Glock 43 & 48s are skinny little fuckers. It's hard to imagine a TDA that thin, and I doubt CZ will try.

Thanks. I've been finishing up every practice session with a mag worth of draws to far steel. I wouldn't say a 1.7s hit on an 8" plate at 25-35 is truly "on demand" yet, but fairly frequently I'll get strings of 5-10 straight hits and that's encouraging.

Here's another interesting thing to consider: on Accelerator (https://www.benstoeger.com/livefire-drills), at least for me times are faster and points are better shooting far to near. I'd rather draw to the 25yd target and shoot it in DA than transition to it and shoot it in SA.

64224

[olstyn]

Here's another interesting thing to consider: on Accelerator (https://www.benstoeger.com/livefire-drills), at least for me times are faster and points are better shooting far to near. I'd rather draw to the 25yd target and shoot it in DA than transition to it and shoot it in SA.

Interesting. You are not the first better-than-me shooter who I've heard express that opinion. Do you have a working theory about why it's better to draw to the theoretically harder target?

ETA: "opinion" is the wrong word. "State that they've measured that result" would be better.

[Clusterfrack]

Interesting. You are not the first better-than-me shooter who I've heard express that opinion. Do you have a working theory about why it's better to draw to the theoretically harder target?

Draws and transitions are sort of the same thing. You look at the target, move the gun to the target, and break the shot. But before that happens you have to get a good grip and index. If I take the first shot on the near target, I may save a few 10ths but often pay the price in points down or a jacked grip. If I invest the time in good points on the far target first, my grip and index will be solid, and then I can save more time and still get good points shooting fast transitions and splits on the close targets. I'm still of two minds on whether to reload to the close or far targets. I'm tending toward far also because of the grip.

[Miragetex]

You could look at the Bond Arms Bullpup. Bond is best known for its high quality derringer pistols that dominate their class in Cowboy Action, but they've had the Bullpup in their line for several years. It's very small (pocketable), handles +P 9mm, and thin with 7 + 1 capacity. It's DAO, so you can't cock the hammer, but the hammer (which doesn't look like most hammers, no spur - remember it's DAO) works like you would expect and you can put your thumb on it like the Glock accessory you mentioned, which is comforting with AIWB. Trigger pull is light and crisp. It's made of stainless steel in Texas. It is a little pricey, MSRP around $1k. It's different from just about any other pistol in the world because it uses a reverse feed - as the slide moves back, either from the initial rack or after firing, it pulls a round backward out of the magazine, then raises it up to line with with chamber as the slide moves forward. That allows the firing chamber to be directly above the magazine, so the barrel length is about an inch longer than it looks - the smallest one has a 3.3" barrel with a slide barely 5" long. It's a locked breech with rotating barrel, which seems to reduce felt recoil, and the slide is very easy to rack.
The Bullpup works very reliably with good ammo, but some 9mm FMJ ammo (especially the cheap stuff) doesn't have much crimp on the bullet, and it can pull the case off of the bullet, making a messy jam. This is the same issue that sometimes comes up with heavy loads in revolvers where the bullets in the other chambers can move forward in the case from recoil. I've shot many different brands of HP ammo in my Bullpups and never had this happen with any of them (even the cheapest off-brands of HP seem to have plenty of crimp), and Winchester WhiteBox FMJ has good crimp and works well. Full disclosure - I'm not a Bond employee nor do I have any financial interest in the company, but I have done some work for them in the past, so I'm familiar with the company and its people. I bought my Bullpup with my own money, and I confess to being a big fan of the guns. I've shot more than 500 rounds through mine, and some of the factory guns have over 10,000 rounds. They are capable of more accuracy than I am for sure.

[olstyn]

Draws and transitions are sort of the same thing. You look at the target, move the gun to the target, and break the shot. But before that happens you have to get a good grip and index. If I take the first shot on the near target, I may save a few 10ths but often pay the price in points down or a jacked grip. If I invest the time in good points on the far target first, my grip and index will be solid, and then I can save more time and still get good points shooting fast transitions and splits on the close targets. I'm still of two minds on whether to reload to the close or far targets. I'm tending toward far also because of the grip.

Ah, so it's mostly a way to avoid the natural internal tendency to want to go at a speed that outruns our abilities, then? That makes a fair amount of sense.

[Clusterfrack]

Ah, so it's mostly a way to avoid the natural internal tendency to want to go at a speed that outruns our abilities, then? That makes a fair amount of sense.

Partially. I guess I would say it’s more about investing the time in a solid grip and index, so you can go faster. Sort of like BJJ “position before submission”?

[Clusterfrack]

You could look at the Bond Arms Bullpup. ... small (pocketable), handles +P 9mm, and thin with 7 + 1 capacity. It's DAO, so you can't cock the hammer...

That is a cool mouse gun. I think I’ll stick with my LCR for that role, but I’m glad you posted about it.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Why aren't there good micro compact TDA options? Market demand and engineering difficulties would be my guess. A TDA has more moving parts that have to fit together more precisely compared to a typical striker, so they tend to cost more both to engineer and produce. The engineering is made more difficult if trying to hit the size/weight of, say, a P365. In addition buyers in this segment tend to be very price conscious, so a mini-TDA would either be more expensive and appeal to an even smaller market, or it would have tighter margins, making it harder for a company to recover that initial R&D investment.
I would love to see a P365XL size/capacity TDA and would probably buy one immediately even if it were made by a company I don't really like such as Springfield or Sig.
The conclusion most TDA folks come to is the next best thing is a DAO instead, and there are at least a few options there. Personally I carry either a Kahr P9 or an LCR .38 when I can't carry a CZ P01 or P07. Here's a rundown of the DAO and DAO-ish options I am aware of:

1. Kahr: For the price of my P9 I am dissatisfied with the fit/finish, the apparent build quality (plastic frame rails!), and the long break in period (yes, its very real). On the other hand, since break in ended the gun has been fully reliable with JHP and FMJ rounds. It doesn't have a hammer you can thumb and I dislike how I can't see the condition of the striker like I can a hammer fired gun. The recoil is about like every other gun in this size class. The accuracy is solid. I like the trigger, although it does feel somehow hollow and less satisfying than a true hammer fired DAO trigger (totally subjective). I strongly dislike how I have to rack the slide every time I want to dry fire. The cheap Kahrs have a front sight that cannot be changed out, and the expensive ones are a bit pricey for what you get, given the above downsides. However, on the whole I feel the Kahr is the best micro option for the TDA shooter. Decent night sights are available, and they are very size and weight efficient, with the 7 round 3.5" P9 concealing in the pocket of most dress pants.
2. Revolvers: S&W J frame and Ruger LCR. Very lightweight, concealable, and versatile. However, harder to shoot well and maintain proficiency if you mainly train with automatics.
3. Bond Bullpup: If anyone is interested I'd be happy to do a mini-review. I owned one for a while. It was very defective, Bond replaced the whole slide assembly, and the gun they returned worked great. After it was repaired I had a range day shooting the Bond, Kahr P9, and G43 back to back. I found the Bond the most shootable, though it was only a marginal advantage. It is a true DAO auto, a really cool piece of engineering, and can carry in pockets only a G42 would fit in. However, it is at least twice the price of everything else in the segment, holster selection sucks, it can experience catastrophic failures due to the unique design, and there are NO night sight options I am aware of.

I really wish someone would make a gun the size/weight of the Kahr but with a real hammer, and the ability to take Glock sights. There was a company called Naroh that appeared to be making just that gun but they had some problems with quality control and I think they are out of business. Even better would be a true DAO G48/P365-ish gun. I think Sig could produce this fairly easily using the P250 engineering, but I won't place any hope on them doing so.

[EVP]

"Prepping" the trigger on presentation? The top shooters in the world don't do this, and neither do I. DB has addressed the "shooting" unintentionally issue, as have many others. A longer trigger pull reduces this concern. Some striker fired guns, including a shit ton of modded Glocks have shorter, lighter pulls than the SA pull of many TDA guns.
.


I am not saying that this is a accurate or inaccurate statement but could you reference who you might be alluding too? What type of pistol were they shooting?

I remember hearing that most people will get in the trigger early when speed is a factor and that if you put them in slow motion on tape that they are in fact prepping earlier in the process.

So for educations purposes and to see if that was indeed the case, I watched accomplished shooters and competitors on youtube and found that to mostly be the case.


It does not matter to me on way or other just curious.

[Clusterfrack]

For those coming to this late in the thread, this question was specifically about when in the draw process you start pressing the trigger in traditional double action guns. Ben Stoeger is a good example, but there a lots of others examples in the top 16 USPSA production shooters.

What do you mean by "prepping"? Do you mean staging the trigger so the hammer is partially back, slowing or stopping the press, and then completing the press when the sights are on target?

Here's a podcast that I think discusses this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhBia_qybKg



I am not saying that this is a accurate or inaccurate statement but could you reference who you might be alluding too? What type of pistol were they shooting?

I remember hearing that most people will get in the trigger early when speed is a factor and that if you put them in slow motion on tape that they are in fact prepping earlier in the process.

So for educations purposes and to see if that was indeed the case, I watched accomplished shooters and competitors on youtube and found that to mostly be the case.


It does not matter to me on way or other just curious.

[jd950]

1. Kahr: For the price of my P9 I am dissatisfied with the fit/finish, the apparent build quality (plastic frame rails!), and the long break in period (yes, its very real). On the other hand, since break in ended the gun has been fully reliable with JHP and FMJ rounds. It doesn't have a hammer you can thumb and I dislike how I can't see the condition of the striker like I can a hammer fired gun. The recoil is about like every other gun in this size class. The accuracy is solid. I like the trigger, although it does feel somehow hollow and less satisfying than a true hammer fired DAO trigger (totally subjective). I strongly dislike how I have to rack the slide every time I want to dry fire. The cheap Kahrs have a front sight that cannot be changed out, and the expensive ones are a bit pricey for what you get, given the above downsides. However, on the whole I feel the Kahr is the best micro option for the TDA shooter. Decent night sights are available, and they are very size and weight efficient, with the 7 round 3.5" P9 concealing in the pocket of most dress pants.


Just a few of comments. The PM9 has steel insets in the plastic rails, so in operation is is steel on steel. The plastic rails are not "load bearing" if you that term fits.

The break in is intended to let the parts wear in together and for the spring to take a set. I have never really understood the gripes about the 200 round break in. Many Kahr pistols I have had will have a feed problem several times in the first 50-100 rounds but settle in after that. The thing is, though...I would never carry a pistol for serious purposes until I had run at least a couple hundred rounds through it anyway, including both range and defensive ammo, preferably with different bullet shapes, manufacturers, etc. So the break in period is kind of a non-issue for me.

As far as the condition of the striker, if the gun is loaded, the gun is cocked. Needing to rack the slide for a second strike is common with many guns, including guns with true hammers. There is a trigger pull benefit to guns that utilize the slide movement to fully or partially cock the hammer.

If you want a "true" DAO subcompact with double strike capability, you could look for a Sig P290 RS, but I doubt you will like the trigger. There are probably others I do not know of, but I have yet to find anything that fulfills the micro 9 pistol concept better FOR ME than the PM9 or MK9 (if you are okay with the weight of an all steel gun).

[EVP]

For those coming to this late in the thread, this question was specifically about when in the draw process you start pressing the trigger in traditional double action guns. Ben Stoeger is a good example, but there a lots of others examples in the top 16 USPSA production shooters.

What do you mean by "prepping"? Do you mean staging the trigger so the hammer is partially back, slowing or stopping the press, and then completing the press when the sights are on target?

Here's a podcast that I think discusses this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhBia_qybKg


Thanks for the link, I listened to it and it had some good bits of info.

I think the terms used to describe some techniques are what sometimes leads a little confusion.

I was referencing the act of pulling the trigger in one smooth continuous motion while final alignment of the sights are being cleaned up in the presentation. That seems to be what Ben is an advocate for and that staging is not desirable. I totally agree and have heeded the advice of accomplished Da/sa shooters and others. Even when knowing that it is not good to stage, I played around with it to just see for myself. I found that it is not consistent as well and I would have bad misses that I could not account for. So I quickly figured out “yup that’s what those guys were talking about”

I guess I was confused and did not think “prepping” meant “staging”. I do not stage as I have heard that is a no-go since before I even started experimented with the LEMs back some years ago.

[Clusterfrack]

I hesitate to continue to discuss this because it's not the focus of the OP. I hope it's not out of line to say one more thing on the topic.

Let's set "staging" the DA trigger aside (bad idea IMO) and talk about "prepping". One type of prepping is taking up slack in the trigger--something that people do with a variety of trigger systems. With a longer and more continuous DA trigger pull, some people begin pulling before the sights are aligned. The question is WHEN in the targeting process the slack-taking / pulling happens.

With a "competition" draw, where the horizontal press-out phase is reduced or virtually eliminated, a lot of people (including Ben and a bunch of top TDA shooters) wait until the draw is virtually complete to begin pressing the trigger. Pressing while cleaning up the sight picture is happening while the gun is pretty much completely extended.

With a traditional 5 step press-out draw, it's possible to start pressing a DA (or striker) trigger much earlier.


Thanks for the link, I listened to it and it had some good bits of info.

I think the terms used to describe some techniques are what sometimes leads a little confusion.

I was referencing the act of pulling the trigger in one smooth continuous motion while final alignment of the sights are being cleaned up in the presentation. That seems to be what Ben is an advocate for and that staging is not desirable. I totally agree and have heeded the advice of accomplished Da/sa shooters and others. Even when knowing that it is not good to stage, I played around with it to just see for myself. I found that it is not consistent as well and I would have bad misses that I could not account for. So I quickly figured out “yup that’s what those guys were talking about”

I guess I was confused and did not think “prepping” meant “staging”. I do not stage as I have heard that is a no-go since before I even started experimented with the LEMs back some years ago.

[BehindBlueI's]

Let's set "staging" the DA trigger aside (bad idea IMO) and talk about "prepping". One type of prepping is taking up slack in the trigger--something that people do with a variety of trigger systems. With a longer and more continuous DA trigger pull, some people begin pulling before the sights are aligned. The question is WHEN in the targeting process the slack-taking / pulling happens.

With a "competition" draw, where the horizontal press-out phase is reduced or virtually eliminated, a lot of people (including Ben and a bunch of top TDA shooters) wait until the draw is virtually complete to begin pressing the trigger. Pressing while cleaning up the sight picture is happening while the gun is pretty much completely extended.

With a traditional 5 step press-out draw, it's possible to start pressing a DA (or striker) trigger much earlier.

That's more in line with what I meant. If I try to stage, my which I assume we mean get the trigger to just before the break and hold it there until sights are aligned then break the shot, that's a recipe for shanking a shot with anticipation/trigger snatch for me. I catch myself trying to do it on occasion with a DA revolver in accuracy work with no time pressure and *always* shoot worse then I would have with a bit of time pressure and a rolling break, if that's the correct term. I never do it in dry fire practice, but something about live fire with no pressure and if I'm not careful I can revert to looking for that perfect sight picture and NOW on the trigger trying to grab it.

[JAD]

With a traditional 5 step press-out draw, it's possible to start pressing a DA (or striker) trigger much earlier.

The five count is not a press-out, and the press-out is not a five count.

Press out *has the primary function* of beginning the trigger press earlier, because the sights are aligned with the target very early.

Five count (here's an excellent description, if you don't own a copy of Morrisson: https://www.recoilweb.com/monday-morning-gomez-overview-of-the-drawstroke-60175.html) specifically does not go to the trigger early because step four is a low ready.

Four count, which has you going straight to the target from retention, permits a press at any point in the 3-4 transition but doesn't specifically get on the trigger because there is no visual verification.

Prepping the trigger during the extension is a specific feature of the press-out. With the right trigger I really like it.

ETA: There are lots of great threads on the press-out in this forum, but this is the best: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2093-press-out-or-punch-out-AFHF-class-question/

In it, clever readers will note that I said (in 2011, as a pure 1911 shooter) that I prep the trigger from 'smack' for the five and four counts, and was taught so at Gunsite. 'Prep' has a different meaning in a 1911 context vs. a longer trigger manipulation, but there you go: I contradict myself. I'll go back to Gunsite in April and see what they're teaching then.

[Elwin]

I posted a similar thread a while back, when I was using a DA/SA P99 as my main pistol and a PPS as the small gun (has a Glock style striker firing system with a striker indicator that’s basically a built in SCD). I’ve since switched back to a Kahr CM9 for the small gun for the true DA trigger and because it’s just that much smaller and lighter than the Shield-sized PPS, and therefore works better for some of my applications. I’ve also switched to a 1911 as my main gun, but even with that change I’m still sticking with the CM9 because there’s a similar problem with finding good SA options in that size and weight range.

All to say that whether your main gun is a TDA or a single action, unless a striker gun is your thing, your best small gun option will likely still end up being a revolver or a DA auto. For the latter, I’m not aware of anything I’d personally consider other than Kahr.

[Duelist]

Why aren't there good micro compact TDA options? Market demand and engineering difficulties would be my guess. A TDA has more moving parts that have to fit together more precisely compared to a typical striker, so they tend to cost more both to engineer and produce. The engineering is made more difficult if trying to hit the size/weight of, say, a P365. In addition buyers in this segment tend to be very price conscious, so a mini-TDA would either be more expensive and appeal to an even smaller market, or it would have tighter margins, making it harder for a company to recover that initial R&D investment.
I would love to see a P365XL size/capacity TDA and would probably buy one immediately even if it were made by a company I don't really like such as Springfield or Sig.
The conclusion most TDA folks come to is the next best thing is a DAO instead, and there are at least a few options there. Personally I carry either a Kahr P9 or an LCR .38 when I can't carry a CZ P01 or P07. Here's a rundown of the DAO and DAO-ish options I am aware of:

1. Kahr: For the price of my P9 I am dissatisfied with the fit/finish, the apparent build quality (plastic frame rails!), and the long break in period (yes, its very real). On the other hand, since break in ended the gun has been fully reliable with JHP and FMJ rounds. It doesn't have a hammer you can thumb and I dislike how I can't see the condition of the striker like I can a hammer fired gun. The recoil is about like every other gun in this size class. The accuracy is solid. I like the trigger, although it does feel somehow hollow and less satisfying than a true hammer fired DAO trigger (totally subjective). I strongly dislike how I have to rack the slide every time I want to dry fire. The cheap Kahrs have a front sight that cannot be changed out, and the expensive ones are a bit pricey for what you get, given the above downsides. However, on the whole I feel the Kahr is the best micro option for the TDA shooter. Decent night sights are available, and they are very size and weight efficient, with the 7 round 3.5" P9 concealing in the pocket of most dress pants.
2. Revolvers: S&W J frame and Ruger LCR. Very lightweight, concealable, and versatile. However, harder to shoot well and maintain proficiency if you mainly train with automatics.
3. Bond Bullpup: If anyone is interested I'd be happy to do a mini-review. I owned one for a while. It was very defective, Bond replaced the whole slide assembly, and the gun they returned worked great. After it was repaired I had a range day shooting the Bond, Kahr P9, and G43 back to back. I found the Bond the most shootable, though it was only a marginal advantage. It is a true DAO auto, a really cool piece of engineering, and can carry in pockets only a G42 would fit in. However, it is at least twice the price of everything else in the segment, holster selection sucks, it can experience catastrophic failures due to the unique design, and there are NO night sight options I am aware of.

I really wish someone would make a gun the size/weight of the Kahr but with a real hammer, and the ability to take Glock sights. There was a company called Naroh that appeared to be making just that gun but they had some problems with quality control and I think they are out of business. Even better would be a true DAO G48/P365-ish gun. I think Sig could produce this fairly easily using the P250 engineering, but I won't place any hope on them doing so.

They did make that: the Sig P290RS. Pretty cool little gun, a bit chunky. 9mm and .380. 6rds flush, 8rds extended. 3” or so barrel. I had one for a while. Accurate, decent factory night sights, easy to shoot, reliable cycling, enough mass that the recoil wasn’t punishing (to me -Mrs Duelist disagreed vehemently).

Weighs almost as much as a G26.3 - within a couple of ounces, IIRC, and is pretty thick for a pocket gun. Slide is short, and my copy had one of the “pretty” Sig finishes that are too slick. The slick finish scared me a couple of times when the slide got away from me - it was sprung pretty heavily. The magazines worked well, except when pocket carried as a spare. The top round would walk out while carrying it in a pocket or smart carry, and then the next. I think my record was 4 loose rounds in my pocket.

I finally sold it when I decided the slide is too short for me: the end of my shooting thumb could get close to the muzzle, and the end of my support thumb would cross the line sometimes if I didn’t modify its position. I got my G26.3 during my ownership of the P290RS, and its negligible weight increase, endurance of the 2k round test, shooting and handling performance, slightly longer slide, better magazines, and capacity increase made me choose it as the better mousetrap in this case.

ETA: but I don’t use the G26 as a pocket gun. I either use the 642 or the G42 as my pocket gun.

[Clusterfrack]

The CZ Rami BD needs a place in this thread.
64303

It is comparable in all dimensions, and capacity to a Glock 26.
64304
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/glock-g26-gen4-vs-cz-2075-rami

[Duelist]

The CZ Rami BD needs a place in this thread.
64303

It is comparable in all dimensions, and capacity to a Glock 26.
64304
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/glock-g26-gen4-vs-cz-2075-rami

Always been an intriguing pistol to me.

That said, while it is only .5 or so taller, and 4oz heavier, the price search I just did shows it at anywhere from $640-$845 retail, and I can’t remember the last time I saw one for sale in an LGS.

I can get a new Glock anywhere, in normal times at least, and they usually cost right about $500 new, much less used. Online search shows a few in stock to order at a premium, $630. Sucks, but it is what it is. Just saw one the other day for sale at the LGS.

I’d like to try a Rami sometime. The CZ75 I used to have was a nice, reliable, accurate gun.

[Polecat]

The Rami is way too chunky. I would envision a CZ poly version of the Sphinx Alpha subcompact as it is already CZ based and actually resembles a P07 in slide profile, only go a bit thinner.

I think there is room in world for a gun in between a P365 and P07. That would give you about a half inch of wiggle room. What I have noticed with the little guns is it is easier to shoot of the grip is a little longer front to back like a 503, or a bit more “cylindrical” like a hellcat. If a 10 round limit enues they should optimum the width and grip into more narrow guns in Da/Sa. Imagine a thinner P30, with width of P365!

[Clusterfrack]

I won't argue about the chunkiness of the Rami--or the 26. But the ergos of the Rami are excellent (as usual for CZs), and the gun feels much larger than it is.

If a 10 round limit ensues, I'll probably be found carrying my P-07 with a 10 round mag. Small size is good, but shooting the gun really well is also good. I might also drown my tears with a Cajunized Rami.


The Rami is way too chunky. I would envision a CZ poly version of the Sphinx Alpha subcompact as it is already CZ based and actually resembles a P07 in slide profile, only go a bit thinner.

I think there is room in world for a gun in between a P365 and P07. That would give you about a half inch of wiggle room. What I have noticed with the little guns is it is easier to shoot of the grip is a little longer front to back like a 503, or a bit more “cylindrical” like a hellcat. If a 10 round limit enues they should optimum the width and grip into more narrow guns in Da/Sa. Imagine a thinner P30, with width of P365!

[fatdog]

They did make that: the Sig P290RS. Pretty cool little gun

I had one of those for a couple of years. It ran great, probably put 2-3K rounds through it. It was accurate enough, it worked for me in a Mika holster in the pocket.

But I could not manage the grip well, just too small for me to control shot to shot and acquiring a grip on the draw was difficult, sometimes a fail for me. Same exact reason I gave up on the G43 years ago. I can do better work with a J frame or a D frame than I could with the P290 or the G43.

[Jared]

The CZ Rami BD needs a place in this thread.
64303

It is comparable in all dimensions, and capacity to a Glock 26.
64304
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/glock-g26-gen4-vs-cz-2075-rami

I like that one, didn’t know about it previously. Are they very uncommon?

[Clusterfrack]

I like that one, didn’t know about it previously. Are they very uncommon?

I’ve seen a few around, but not many.

[Joe in PNG]

I had the polymer 2075 a number of years back, that I sold to a friend because "DA sux".

I tried to buy it back a couple of times, but he's not selling it.

[TheNewbie]

I thought the Rami had some reliability issues. Maybe not, and I hope I’m wrong.

[Doc_Glock]

The CZ Rami BD needs a place in this thread.
64303

It is comparable in all dimensions, and capacity to a Glock 26.
64304
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/glock-g26-gen4-vs-cz-2075-rami

Those are super cute! Shopped one hard for a while. Hmmmm.

[HeavyDuty]

I had one of those for a couple of years. It ran great, probably put 2-3K rounds through it. It was accurate enough, it worked for me in a Mika holster in the pocket.

But I could not manage the grip well, just too small for me to control shot to shot and acquiring a grip on the draw was difficult, sometimes a fail for me. Same exact reason I gave up on the G43 years ago. I can do better work with a J frame or a D frame than I could with the P290 or the G43.

One thing that greatly enhanced a consistent grip for my G43 (also G26 and G33, for that matter) was going to Geeplate floorplates.

[MattyD380]

I thought the Rami had some reliability issues. Maybe not, and I hope I’m wrong.

I had a rami for a while. I did have a few FTFeeds. One was the last round of the very first mag I shot through the gun. I gave it a pass on that. It was fine for a few hundred rounds, then it gave me two FTFs in one range session—somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 rounds. I think I did read somewhere that you’re supposed to change the outer recoil spring every 500? Not sure that’s true... The ammo that choked (at 500) was reman. But my P239 didn’t give a shit. Nor did any of my other guns.

Also, it looked like the front edge of the barrel hood (where it locks up) had a bit of peening? Not as bad as some pics I googled... but... meh. I got rid of it. Plus, it was very thick. I don’t know that it was any more comfortable to carry or concealable than a P239.

I will say it shot GREAT though. Very easy to make accurate hits. Recoil wasn’t bad at all. Felt great in the hand. If it wasn’t for the FTFs, I would have kept it.

[Bucky]

One thing that greatly enhanced a consistent grip for my G43 (also G26 and G33, for that matter) was going to Geeplate floorplates.

Agree 100%, those plates lock the 43 into my hand.

[LHS]

I would legit love to see an inexpensive TDA version of the Shield, i.e. a true polymer successor to the 3913 series.

I've been having such great fun shooting my Beretta 81BB in local BUG matches, and having a modernized version of that would be pretty sweet. If they could do something in that size in 9mm, even better. But I'd settle for an 81X or 81G Elite LTT ;)

[Navin Johnson]

Yes....S&W has the background and size to make the M&P line in TDA.

Not likely unless large PD's are interested. The gun community has likely changed the direction for ever of the combat pistol. Split times and mag changes are SO much more important than safety.....

Played with a NIB 39xx (blued DAO) recently at the LGS and forgot how svelt and ergonomic they are.

[MattyD380]

Yes....S&W has the background and size to make the M&P line in TDA.

Not likely unless large PD's are interested. The gun community has likely changed the direction for ever of the combat pistol. Split times and mag changes are SO much more important than safety.....

Played with a NIB 39xx (blued DAO) recently at the LGS and forgot how svelt and ergonomic they are.

My 6904 feels great in hand and the DA trigger is buttery smooth with no stacking and no overtravel. Wish something like that was still made.

[Jared]

I would legit love to see an inexpensive TDA version of the Shield, i.e. a true polymer successor to the 3913 series.

I've been having such great fun shooting my Beretta 81BB in local BUG matches, and having a modernized version of that would be pretty sweet. If they could do something in that size in 9mm, even better. But I'd settle for an 81X or 81G Elite LTT ;)

I would probably buy 3, and I know I’d buy 2.

[Wheeler]

I would legit love to see an inexpensive TDA version of the Shield, i.e. a true polymer successor to the 3913 series.

I've been having such great fun shooting my Beretta 81BB in local BUG matches, and having a modernized version of that would be pretty sweet. If they could do something in that size in 9mm, even better. But I'd settle for an 81X or 81G Elite LTT ;)

I had resisted buying a Beretta for years until I bought a Series 81 in .32 ACP. It didn't take me long after that experience to buy an M9, then an Elite 2, and recently a Cougar. Now I've caught myself looking at Cx4s trying to rationalize how practical it would be to have one that took 92 series magazines because CoMpatIbilITy WiLL KeEp you aLiVe on da Streets! :D

[OfficeCat]

Imagine a thinner P30, with width of P365!

My dream gun.

[LHS]

I had resisted buying a Beretta for years until I bought a Series 81 in .32 ACP. It didn't take me long after that experience to buy an M9, then an Elite 2, and recently a Cougar. Now I've caught myself looking at Cx4s trying to rationalize how practical it would be to have one that took 92 series magazines because CoMpatIbilITy WiLL KeEp you aLiVe on da Streets! :D

Did you get an original, no-suffix 81, or a more modern variant?

[Clusterfrack]

If we’re including DAO guns, the KelTec PF9 and Ruger LCP should be mentioned.

[AdioSS]

If we’re including DAO guns, the KelTec PF9 and Ruger LCP should be mentioned.
The PF-9 (along with the P3AT & P32) are hammer fired, but they do not have second strike ability.

And even though it was recently discontinued after 25 years, the old P-11 was true DAO hammer fired with 2nd strike & flush fit 12rd mags available from KelTec. That was my first pistol. I still carry it often.

I also often carry a Beretta MiniCougar. Mine was a D, but I added the parts to add single action. It is very close in size to the 81 Series guns, but is definitely chunky.

64415

[Wheeler]

Did you get an original, no-suffix 81, or a more modern variant?

Mine is one of the no suffix, Italian Police trade-ins. 64417

[LHS]

Mine is one of the no suffix, Italian Police trade-ins. 64417

I have a couple of those as well. FYI, I found that Wolff's springs fit these (the BB and later guns use different spring diameters), and Wojtek Weaponry has done a run of replacement firing pins (since they're somewhat fragile and Beretta no longer makes spare parts for anything unique to the older-pattern guns).

[TheNewbie]

If we’re including DAO guns, the KelTec PF9 and Ruger LCP should be mentioned.


I would really consider the PF9 if I thought it would be reliable. My copy, years ago, was perfect with FMJ, but not with HP. Plus it was one of the few guns that I actually found painful to shoot.

However I still have a, possibly irrational, desire for one.

[LHS]

I would really consider the PF9 if I thought it would be reliable. My copy, years ago, was perfect with FMJ, but not with HP. Plus it was one of the few guns that I actually found painful to shoot.

However I still have a, possibly irrational, desire for one.

I found the exact same issues with my 2005-vintage P11. It ran well with FMJ, wouldn't feed any JHPs I could source. And the sharp corners of the grip frame were painful to shoot more than a couple mags through.

[revchuck38]

I would really consider the PF9 if I thought it would be reliable. My copy, years ago, was perfect with FMJ, but not with HP. Plus it was one of the few guns that I actually found painful to shoot.

I had one for a couple of months. After 50 rounds of standard velocity 9x19, my hand was shaking so much that hits were iffy. It was decently accurate and ran 100%, though. I still have the Mika pocket holster for it.

[Wheeler]

I have a couple of those as well. FYI, I found that Wolff's springs fit these (the BB and later guns use different spring diameters), and Wojtek Weaponry has done a run of replacement firing pins (since they're somewhat fragile and Beretta no longer makes spare parts for anything unique to the older-pattern guns).

Thanks for the info. I’ll add that to my list of things to get for spare parts.

[Elwin]

The .40 version belonging to a family member was probably the worst pistol shooting experience I’ve ever had. A springy, spungy, flexy DA trigger pull that never ends and recoil that may have been worse than the titanium snubbie with full power magnum loads. Granted that’s a .40 and not a 9mm, but damn it was awful. I may have unloaded and passed on finishing the one mag I was going to put through it, I don’t recall.

ETA this is regarding Kel Tec, not Beretta.

[Joe in PNG]

Put me in the "damn, that PF-9 is hella painful" camp. I dumped mine after my first range trip.

[Clusterfrack]

I would really consider the PF9 if I thought it would be reliable. My copy, years ago, was perfect with FMJ, but not with HP. Plus it was one of the few guns that I actually found painful to shoot.

However I still have a, possibly irrational, desire for one.

I do not have a desire for anything from KelTec. Their track record is too spotty. In this form factor, give me a G43 with a SCD any day of the week.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

If we’re including DAO guns, the KelTec PF9 and Ruger LCP should be mentioned.

Is the LCP a true DAO with a trigger you can pull continually for dryfire? I only have experience with the LCP 2, which is something like an SAO, and not interesting to me for that reason.

Despite my above gripes about my Kahr I cant imagine leaving it for a Kel Tec, based on my experience which includes a PF9. I also played with the SCCY (P11 clone) and it was just too chunky and cheap feeling for me to consider replacing my Kahr with.

[TheNewbie]

Is the LCP a true DAO with a trigger you can pull continually for dryfire? I only have experience with the LCP 2, which is something like an SAO, and not interesting to me for that reason.

Despite my above gripes about my Kahr I cant imagine leaving it for a Kel Tec, based on my experience which includes a PF9. I also played with the SCCY (P11 clone) and it was just too chunky and cheap feeling for me to consider replacing my Kahr with.


The LCP Gen 1 does not have second strike capability.

[Evil_Ed]

Sig tried, with the P224...they were moderately successful with the P245 and P220 compact(s; 2 generations of them), then they tried the P224 in both 9 and 40. That one...not so successful. Sig doesn't make any of them now, though since the 220 compact wasn't a total failure, maybe they might bring that one back some day...

It wasn't that they couldn't make the DA/SA part work; it was that for whatever reason, they couldn't make them reliable, IIRC. I don't know why/what the issues were specifically, but I've never heard of anyone putting one through a rigorous test and it succeeding. I've read of plenty of stories on sig talk and other forums of people sending 224s back for repair/replacement, and never being happy with how they run.

They've done sporadic runs of P229s and P220s with the Compact 224/220 slides (usually called "Carry" models)...I don't know if they're more reliable due to the frame size, or what. I'm guessing they're not as reliable as the longer slide/barrel versions, but people want them anyway, so..

FWIW my P220 compact has been %100 reliable with everything factory I've fed it; I'm probably around 1200 rounds through it or so by this point, most of them (north of 800) my reloads. A few handful of failure to fires that went off on the 2nd/3rd strike; undoubtedly stretched brass and primers not fully seated each time. Same thing from the same batch happened on a full size P220 and a USP 45, so...I'm sure it wasn't the gun. It's fed HST, Hydra-Shok, and of course ball, all of the 230 grain variety.

The first gen P220 Compacts are easy to tell by their large beavertail...I've heard/read those were pretty unreliable for "reasons". The 2nd gen, which looked more like a standard 220 that someone put the photocopier on %65 before copying, seems to be much more reliable from what I've read...and for me, it's true.

I've heard the 245 was a bit flippy...FWIW, my 220 compact shoots nicer than a Colt Combat Commander. I shot them side by side, and I seriously felt that the 220 compact flipped less and was more comfortable to run for longer round counts. A combination of less punishing to shoot and less weight to carry...two things that often don't happen at the same time.

[MattyD380]

My P245 is awesome. I’d say it’s probably the most “accurate” gun I own. I’ve heard/I gather that Sig P2xx .45s kinda have this “x factor” when it comes to accuracy; I’ve had a few P245s, and I’d say my experience corroborates that. I bought an older P220 recently, which I haven’t actually shot yet. It’ll be interesting to see if I feel the same way about the P220.

I don’t shoot my P245 a ton... but even after a long hiatus, it always puts rounds right where I want them. And I honestly feel like it’s softer shooting than the Colt Commander (steel frame) I had for a while last year.

Also can’t forget the P239 if you’re talking about (sub?)compact Sigs.

[BehindBlueI's]

My P245 is awesome. I’d say it’s probably the most “accurate” gun I own. I’ve heard/I gather that Sig P2xx .45s kinda have this “x factor” when it comes to accuracy; I’ve had a few P245s, and I’d say my experience corroborates that. I bought an older P220 recently, which I haven’t actually shot yet. It’ll be interesting to see if I feel the same way about the P220.

I don’t shoot my P245 a ton... but even after a long hiatus, it always puts rounds right where I want them. And I honestly feel like it’s softer shooting than the Colt Commander (steel frame) I had for a while last year.

Also can’t forget the P239 if you’re talking about (sub?)compact Sigs.

I've got a P245 and a covey of P220s. I am a fan.

[JAD]

If we’re including DAO guns, the KelTec PF9 and Ruger LCP should be mentioned.

Kel Tec, really?

[Clusterfrack]

Kel Tec, really?


I do not have a desire for anything from KelTec. Their track record is too spotty. In this form factor, give me a G43 with a SCD any day of the week.

Since a bunch of DAO guns were being discussed, as well as some very unreliable and crappy guns, I thought we should mention KT. But maybe not...

[Hot Cereal]

I think the P224 was introduced too late. Reliability issues aside. By the time is was introduced (2011) the concept of ultra slim subcompacts were starting to float around. The Shield came out in 2012 and basically had instant success or thereabouts. I don’t think many people wanted a double stack, 29oz subcompact-ish pistol when they could just buy a P229 for the same money. Not to mention by 2011/2012 a lot of places were ditching or had already ditched DA/SA platforms for cheaper plastic striker guns- Glock and M&P, for the most part.

[Cecil Burch]

For awhile, I was running a P2000sk LEM. I thought it might be the "one ring to rule them all" gun for my EDC. Big enough to shoot decently well, but small for concealment. The issue that was the deal breaker was that it was just too thick. It did not conceal any better than the full size P2000, and not as well as the bigger PX4cc.

A single stack PX4cc or a single stack P2000sk would truly be the uber gun for me. And I also know that neither will ever be made, and most likely nothing approaching them will either. There just is not enough demand to justify it.

IF the XDe had sold overwhelming numbers, a number of companies would have jumped on the bandwagon. But it has not, and they will not. And so I continue to balance carry between the carry size gun and the snub to fill my needs.

[luckyman]

For awhile, I was running a P2000sk LEM. I thought it might be the "one ring to rule them all" gun for my EDC. Big enough to shoot decently well, but small for concealment. The issue that was the deal breaker was that it was just too thick. It did not conceal any better than the full size P2000, and not as well as the bigger PX4cc.

A single stack PX4cc or a single stack P2000sk would truly be the uber gun for me. And I also know that neither will ever be made, and most likely nothing approaching them will either. There just is not enough demand to justify it.

IF the XDe had sold overwhelming numbers, a number of companies would have jumped on the bandwagon. But it has not, and they will not. And so I continue to balance carry between the carry size gun and the snub to fill my needs.

Cecil any thoughts on why the PX4cc conceals better? Is it the rounded back end of the slide?

[Cecil Burch]

Cecil any thoughts on why the PX4cc conceals better? Is it the rounded back end of the slide?


I think so. Along with a more general roundness of the entire pistol.

I was carrying a P07 and put on a PX4cc in the exact same holster (both in a Keepers) so it was a true apples to apples comparison, and it was freakish how much better the Beretta was hidden. Lay the two guns down side by side and the look like they have the identical footprint, but the concealment is night and day.

[Polecat]

Sig should try the P224 concept with the P239!!

[Jared]

Sig should try the P224 concept with the P239!!

I wish I’d never sold the first P239 that I had. Sadly SIG has decided, probably rightly, that their time and money is best spent on striker fired models. I’ll be very very surprised to see any DA/SA line extensions or new models from them.

[Hot Cereal]

Sig should try the P224 concept with the P239!!

I would like to see a polymer frame P225 before I see that. It’ll never happen though. I think we might see a resurgence in the popularity of metal framed guns. Polymer guns were designed to be carried more than they’re shot, which is a valid analysis of both general civilian, military and law enforcement pistol use. Personally, I don’t think very many poly guns hold a candle to shooting a well designed metal framed pistol. Just my opinion.

ETA: I’m not implying polymer guns aren’t durable or anything of that nature.

[MattyD380]

Sig should try the P224 concept with the P239!!

So that would be... a p239 with a shorter grip?

Interesting. Maybe take a half inch off the slide too. You’d something rami sized, but single stack. Cool.

It’d be kinda like a CS9, really. I guess that’s probably ultimate DA/SA carry 9.

[BigDaddy]

I've got a P245 and a covey of P220s. I am a fan.

I like the 245 but it just doesn't seem to hold enough rounds. I much prefer the 220.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Tda sucks and the die hard sub compact guy isn’t going to train enough to master it


And tda sucks.
I couldn't say whether this is true but I do think that this perception is the reason there haven't been more options.

I think TDA guns have a decade plus of Glock and glock-knockooff supremacy to overcome in the minds of a lot of buyers and it's only been recently that mainstream buyers are starting to look at other options.

The whole "one trigger pull" thing is pretty seductive. I think it's mostly boredom with Glocks that's stirring the market a bit.

[Joe in PNG]

To be fair on the Kel-Tec PF9 thing, a lot of us have gone through the following process:
1) "Wow, that's a tiny and lite little 9mm!"
2) "And cheap too! I can absolutely throw a couple of Franklins and give it a go!"
3) :BANG: "HOLY @$@#@$ @#$@#% @#%$^&^#@@#%^^ THIS THING @^$#^& HURTS!!!! @&%$#$$#%#@#$@#$@^&&!!!!!"
4) "What will you give me for this PF9?"

[MattyD380]

I couldn't say whether this is true but I do think that this perception is the reason there haven't been more options

I tend to think gun companies realized their margins are higher on polymer striker-fired guns so that's what they've largely made available to the gun buying public. And that's what the public buys, so that's what they keep making. Could be wrong, but I get the sense that most gun buyers don't think as much about as whether it's a SFA, TDA, SAO, etc. as we do.

[Joe in PNG]

I tend to think gun companies realized their margins are higher on polymer striker-fired guns so that's what they've largely made available to the gun buying public. And that's what the public buys, so that's what they keep making. Could be wrong, but I get the sense that most gun buyers don't think as much about as whether it's a SFA, TDA, SAO, etc. as we do.

The likely general metric is 1) Price 2) Brand Name 3) "Feel" 4) Caliber 5) Reputation 6) All that other stuff like 'action'

[Navin Johnson]

So that would be... a p239 with a shorter grip?

Interesting. Maybe take a half inch off the slide too. You’d something rami sized, but single stack. Cool.

It’d be kinda like a CS9, really. I guess that’s probably ultimate DA/SA carry 9.

And weigh 26 oz. empty while holding 6 rounds?

[BehindBlueI's]

I like the 245 but it just doesn't seem to hold enough rounds. I much prefer the 220.

Meh. If I can carry a revolver I can carry a P245. I'm not real worried about capacity in the situations I carry either in, although I haven't carried a Sig for awhile.

That said, P220 magazines will work in a P245, and Sig sells (or at least used to) a sleeve that will act as a grip extension and keep the magazine from wobbling. I've got a couple of them but never used them for carry since they really bulk up the magazine.

[Casual Friday]

The whole "one trigger pull" thing is pretty seductive. I think it's mostly boredom with Glocks that's stirring the market a bit.

Tbh if it wasn't for Glock boredom we probably wouldn't have the M&P, P320, VP9, striker fired Beretta whatever they call it, striker fired CZ P-something or the other. The big pitch has always been an improvement over something Glock does. Back in like 2006, a sales rep from S&W was at the LGS for the M&P launch. He said after "massive public outcry from departments to develop a gun that can be disassembled without pulling the trigger and provides better ergos". Must not have been that big of an outcry because I rarely see M&P's in duty holsters and even fewer in regular guy use. Ask Raven Concealment how many dozen holsters they've sold for M&P's over the years and why they're reluctant to offer new holsters for them.

In the same way I would ask Biden voters to tell me why they're voting for him without mentioning Trump, a gun company should be able to tell you why you should buy their pistol without mentioning or subtly alluding to Glock or their features and characteristics in some way.

I realize I sound like a salty 1911 Boomer in the 80's when Glocks started hitting store shelves, but after shooting and carrying many different pistols over the years, I've always circled back to the pure simplicity of the Glock. In another thread I called them easy buttons and that's the best way I can describe it.

Sincerely,
The 40 year old Glock Boomer

[Duke]

I ran a series of 25yard bill drills from aiwb last night ranging from 2.36 to 2.89

Though I did fail to clean all A’s, there were also no Mike’s. Best a 4A, 2D. All runs had 3 alpha.


I’m sure Some of you can best that with a DA/SA gun.....but I can’t.


64482

[Wheeler]

I ran a series of 25yard bill drills from aiwb last night ranging from 2.36 to 2.89

Though I did fail to clean all A’s, there were also no Mike’s. Best a 4A, 2D. All runs had 3 alpha.


I’m sure Some of you can best that with a DA/SA gun.....but I can’t.


64482

What sort of results do you get when you run that with your LTT/RDS?

[Clusterfrack]

Good shooting. What were you shooting and why do you think it was an advantage over a TDA for a 25 yd Bill Drill?


I ran a series of 25yard bill drills from aiwb last night ranging from 2.36 to 2.89

Though I did fail to clean all A’s, there were also no Mike’s. Best a 4A, 2D. All runs had 3 alpha.

I’m sure Some of you can best that with a DA/SA gun.....but I can’t.

[Duke]

What sort of results do you get when you run that with your LTT/RDS?

No way to know. I dumped the rdo LTT in less than a week

[Duke]

Good shooting. What were you shooting and why do you think it was an advantage over a TDA for a 25 yd Bill Drill?

Ported barrel Zev 19 Franken gun/RM06

Advantage for me is no thought, just work the trigger.

I know we all say work the da shot the same as the SA shot...but that doesn’t jive when speaking of prepped triggers in the draw (which I never liked/ nor did)

[Clusterfrack]

Ported barrel Zev 19 Franken gun/RM06

Advantage for me is no thought, just work the trigger.

I know we all say work the da shot the same as the SA shot...but that doesn’t jive when speaking of prepped triggers in the draw (which I never liked/ nor did)

"no thought, just work the trigger", yes. That's subconscious mastery, and I don't think that is specific to a trigger system. Perhaps some triggers are easier to master.

I don't prep a DA trigger on the draw. My typical time for an A at 25 is ~1.4 - 1.5s. 1.0 to 1.2 for a hit on paper. My points are somewhat better for a CZ TDA than for a Glock, but the times are roughly the same.

One thing that may help this discussion is to mention trigger weight. All of my TDA guns have DA pulls of 7lbs or less. I do not like heavy DA pulls because that reduces my accuracy.

[Duke]

"no thought, just work the trigger", yes. That's subconscious mastery, and I don't think that is specific to a trigger system. Perhaps some triggers are easier to master.

I don't prep a DA trigger on the draw. My typical time for an A at 25 is ~1.4 - 1.5s. 1.0 to 1.2 for a hit on paper. My points are somewhat better for a CZ TDA than for a Glock, but the times are roughly the same.

One thing that may help this discussion is to mention trigger weight. All of my TDA guns have DA pulls of 7lbs or less. I do not like heavy DA pulls because that reduces my accuracy.

Concur on the heavy DA trigger

startle flinch for an average hand strength person is something like 25lbs so. Sorta makes me feel like the DA safety aspect is sorta gun world placebo.

There’s a trigger system being able to allow a reversed decision during a given trigger pull and then there’s a trigger so heavy it can’t be pulled by mistake - which imo even a 15lb da doesnt reach.

This Zev is 3lbs 8 oz. break. 4lb striker spring cause i like to get down

[Clusterfrack]

All of my TDA guns have DA pulls of 7lbs or less. I do not like heavy DA pulls because that reduces my accuracy.

Correction. All of my TDA guns have DA pulls of 8lbs or less.

[TheNewbie]

If shooting was the only consideration in regard to using a firearm, I might not carry a TDA. It’s not the only issue, so I do in fact carry a TDA.


If I could get a properly done DAO, I might even consider that.


Watching cops use guns, and people at the range, I think most people should not be carrying most SFA guns.


I understand that is not the popular opinion of the day, but I have many opinions that are outside the mainstream. They could all be right or they could all be wrong, or some mixture there of.

[MattyD380]

If shooting was the only consideration in regard to using a firearm, I might not carry a TDA. It’s not the only issue, so I do in fact carry a TDA.


If I could get a properly done DAO, I might even consider that.


Watching cops use guns, and people at the range, I think most people should not be carrying most SFA guns.


I understand that is not the popular opinion of the day, but I have many opinions that are outside the mainstream. They could all be right or they could all be wrong, or some mixture there of.

Great points. I like the idea of DA under pressure. Also like the idea of “getting it done” with DAO—but I still feel like I give up some shootability.

[HeavyDuty]

If shooting was the only consideration in regard to using a firearm, I might not carry a TDA. It’s not the only issue, so I do in fact carry a TDA.


If I could get a properly done DAO, I might even consider that.


Watching cops use guns, and people at the range, I think most people should not be carrying most SFA guns.


I understand that is not the popular opinion of the day, but I have many opinions that are outside the mainstream. They could all be right or they could all be wrong, or some mixture there of.

This is similar to the line of thinking that caused me to abandon 1911s for serious social use years ago. Great if you absolutely, positively need to grease someone tonight, not so great as a threat management tool.

[Wake27]

Because only gun hipsters or old guys want them enough to pay for them. Same with revolvers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Duke]

I don’t subscribe to the idea that everyone goes blind, forgets how their fingers work, faints like a goat or immediately shits themselves under stress.

[MattyD380]

So, one trigger pull only advocates...

Why not a 1911? Or a 2011? Even a BHP. It’s one trigger pull... and it’s probably a better trigger pull than most SFAs.

[Duke]

So, one trigger pull only advocates...

Why not a 1911? Or a 2011? Even a BHP. It’s one trigger pull... and it’s probably a better trigger pull than most SFAs.

Don’t get me started on my 2011 year....

[TheNewbie]

I don’t subscribe to the idea that everyone goes blind, forgets how their fingers work, faints like a goat or immediately shits themselves under stress.

I don't either, but most people's skill diminish under extreme stress. Since most people have limited skills to begin with (that's not even an attack), I think equipment can help negate (not totally avoid) issues. DB and Mike Panone are highly trained, been there done that kind of guys. That doesn't mean everything they say or believe is gospel, but it gives some insight into the fact DA/SA can have some real advantages for serious work.


One question I ask myself is, say in a case of mistaken identity/vehicle identity, would I want the average cop who is holding me at gun point to have a SFA or DA/SA? DA/SA all day for me.

[Caballoflaco]

So, one trigger pull only advocates...

Why not a 1911? Or a 2011? Even a BHP. It’s one trigger pull... and it’s probably a better trigger pull than most SFAs.

Cost, lack of drop in replacement parts, corrosion resistance and weight in that order are what keep me away from 1911’s as a carry gun.

I did just trade in the beretta I had been playing with for a 1911 because ‘merica and it’s the gun I learned to shoot pistols with. Also, looking at a parts fiche of a beretta makes my head hurt, even if there isn’t much to go wrong.

[Duke]

I don't either, but most people's skill diminish under extreme stress. Since most people have limited skills to begin with (that's not even an attack), I think equipment can help negate (not totally avoid) issues. DB and Mike Panone are highly trained, been there done that kind of guys. That doesn't mean everything they say or believe is gospel, but it gives some insight into the fact DA/SA can have some real advantages for serious work.


One question I ask myself is, say in a case of mistaken identity/vehicle identity, would I want the average cop who is holding me at gun point to have a SFA or DA/SA? DA/SA all day for me.

I get it.

But since we aren’t hearing about 1,000 negligent discharges a day from cops with drawn guns on suspects, we can asses it’s probably not as easy to get shot - by mistake - by an LE with a Grock/m&p/320/Fn etc as we think it is

[Duelist]

I get it.

But since we aren’t hearing about 1,000 negligent discharges a day from cops with drawn guns on suspects, we can asses it’s probably not as easy to get shot - by mistake - by an LE with a Grock/m&p/320/Fn etc as we think it is

And then we can show the video of the deputy accidentally shooting a proned, restrained suspect with a TDA Beretta 96. Nothing is truly fool-proof. Just hand the thing to a fool, and they’ll prove it.

[MattyD380]

Cost, lack of drop in replacement parts, corrosion resistance and weight in that order are what keep me away from 1911’s as a carry gun.

I did just trade in the beretta I had been playing with for a 1911 because ‘merica and it’s the gun I learned to shoot pistols with. Also, looking at a parts fiche of a beretta makes my head hurt, even if there isn’t much to go wrong.

That's legit. Just figured it was worth bringing up in this discussion. A 1911 would seem to mitigate some the complexity issues with DA/SA and just have a straight-up nice trigger to boot. And it's thin.

[Bucky]

I ran a series of 25yard bill drills from aiwb last night ranging from 2.36 to 2.89

Though I did fail to clean all A’s, there were also no Mike’s. Best a 4A, 2D. All runs had 3 alpha.


I’m sure Some of you can best that with a DA/SA gun.....but I can’t.




I can do that drill better with my CZs than any of my Glocks. Admittedly, that might not be strictly trigger related.

[HeavyDuty]

So, one trigger pull only advocates...

Why not a 1911? Or a 2011? Even a BHP. It’s one trigger pull... and it’s probably a better trigger pull than most SFAs.

See my comment above. IMO and for me only, it’s too good for a threat management tool.

[Cory]

If shooting was the only consideration in regard to using a firearm, I might not carry a TDA. It’s not the only issue, so I do in fact carry a TDA.


If I could get a properly done DAO, I might even consider that.


Watching cops use guns, and people at the range, I think most people should not be carrying most SFA guns.


I understand that is not the popular opinion of the day, but I have many opinions that are outside the mainstream. They could all be right or they could all be wrong, or some mixture there of.

The non-shooting action that I think is most important to me with a da/sa is the thumbable hammer. People managment triggers, stopping a trigger pull, and stuff like that are benefits in my mind. But I reholster a lot more than I do any of those things.

While a SCD is beneficial, it also doesn't hinge at the bottom and allow a thumb the same way a hammer does. I have a SCD on my 17. I think it's an excellent addition. But it's not quite as good as a hammer when I holster.

Plus, the initial DA shot is a single shot on the draw. After that it's the same every shot. I'm not an expert, but to me it seems a bit over blown as an issue.

I like the da/sa. Maybe because the 92 was what I cut my teeth on, maybe because of the extra layer of safety reholstering, maybe because I've stopped a trigger pull just before breaking a shot, maybe because it's what I'm most familiar with.

Debating the merits of da/sa vs the world becomes vanilla ice cream vs all the other flavors at some point. There are alot of legitimate reasons to favor a given action or manual of arms, and there are a lot of feelings and personal preferences.

[Casual Friday]

So, one trigger pull only advocates...

Why not a 1911?

To quote LAV.


"Now, I shoot a Glock," Vickers tells me. "Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass. If they don't like messing around with the pistol and spending a grand to really get it tuned, then they should forget it."

It's a 48 oz pistol that holds 7 rounds and is 8.5" long that might be reliable, or it might be a giant piece of shit. I'm not 80, and didn't come up in a time when there were no other options or grew a fondness for it from my childhood. It's a piece of history, and I may buy one someday just because, but it will never be anything but a range toy.


Or a 2011?

See the year Duke had, along with many others with their 2011's.


Even a BHP. It’s one trigger pull... and it’s probably a better trigger pull than most SFAs.

No rail so no weapon mounted light, which is kinda important to me. Can you put an RMR on one? I don't know. What does the modern holster selection look like for BHP's? How about parts availability? Can I get them from basically anywhere? Again, cool gun with lots of history but not a contender for a carry gun in 2020 for me.

I want easy buttons. Easy to operate. Easy to maintain. Easy to replace.

[BehindBlueI's]

So, one trigger pull only advocates...

Why not a 1911? Or a 2011? Even a BHP. It’s one trigger pull... and it’s probably a better trigger pull than most SFAs.

I spent a lot of time on a 1911 in the Clinton AWB years. I was never able to get the safety off 100% of the time doing resisted drills (ie foam knife attack/grappling vs a live partner). This was well before I attended ECQC, so maybe I'd be better today. Maybe not. But it's one reason I won't carry a thumb safety equipped pistol.

I had a serious altercation with a fellow where I ended up with a broken and dangling strong hand thumb and he ended up dead. I didn't kill him, he mostly killed himself via drug ingestion and excited delerium. I did not have to shoot him, but had I been alone I might have. It would have been very tough to get the thumb safety off. That's a second reason I won't carry a thumb safety equipped pistol.

There are few things easier to shoot accurately then a 5" 1911, IMO, but pure "shootability" isn't my primary decision point in a carry gun. I do not give two shits about an extra tenth of a second in split times or an extra 2" tighter group at 25y. I want something that shoots when I want it to shoot, doesn't shoot when I don't want it to shoot, that I can make good hits with at assessment speeds. If it's sexy, bonus points, but that's all I want and I won't compromise on those things for things I don't give two shits about.

[Doc_Glock]

That's legit. Just figured it was worth bringing up in this discussion. A 1911 would seem to mitigate some the complexity issues with DA/SA and just have a straight-up nice trigger to boot. And it's thin.

It uses both a grip and thumb safety, either of which can jack things up. No safeties on pistols for me.

[beenalongtime]

....but that's all I want and I won't compromise on those things for things I don't give two shots about.


Is it wrong that on a gun forum, this is how I read it?

[MattyD380]

I spent a lot of time on a 1911 in the Clinton AWB years. I was never able to get the safety off 100% of the time doing resisted drills (ie foam knife attack/grappling vs a live partner). This was well before I attended ECQC, so maybe I'd be better today. Maybe not. But it's one reason I won't carry a thumb safety equipped pistol.

I had a serious altercation with a fellow where I ended up with a broken and dangling strong hand thumb and he ended up dead. I didn't kill him, he mostly killed himself via drug ingestion and excited delerium. I did not have to shoot him, but had I been alone I might have. It would have been very tough to get the thumb safety off. That's a second reason I won't carry a thumb safety equipped pistol.

There are few things easier to shoot accurately then a 5" 1911, IMO, but pure "shootability" isn't my primary decision point in a carry gun. I do not give two shits about an extra tenth of a second in split times or an extra 2" tighter group at 25y. I want something that shoots when I want it to shoot, doesn't shoot when I don't want it to shoot, that I can make good hits with at assessment speeds. If it's sexy, bonus points, but that's all I want and I won't compromise on those things for things I don't give two shits about.

I can't imagine how much a broken thumb would hurt. But... I guess it's a case of "should have seen the other guy."

I do find 1911s intuitively shootable. I've owned a Commander, a CCO and an EMP... didn't have stellar experiences with any of those, other than, just, accuracy--they all put holes on holes on holes. At some point, I'd like to pony up for an actual government .45 and just call it a day on 1911s. I ran a BHP a few times in steel matches (i.e., I had to flick a safety off)... I'm not sure if my times were appreciably different vs. my DA/SA guns. But, I guess I'll take the peace of mind a DA affords over cocked and locked, all things being equal. I will say the safety on my MKIII feels pretty solid and I wouldn't be worried about carrying it, from a safety standpoint. Especially as heavy as a stock BHP trigger is. Though that cocked hammer is pretty much a cheese grater.

Actually just finished an advanced (subjective--yes) concealed carry class today. I feel like my P239 served me well, consistently getting DA shots squarely on target in reasonable times. It was reliable too. Others weren't.

[TheNewbie]

The non-shooting action that I think is most important to me with a da/sa is the thumbable hammer. People managment triggers, stopping a trigger pull, and stuff like that are benefits in my mind. But I reholster a lot more than I do any of those things.

While a SCD is beneficial, it also doesn't hinge at the bottom and allow a thumb the same way a hammer does. I have a SCD on my 17. I think it's an excellent addition. But it's not quite as good as a hammer when I holster.

Plus, the initial DA shot is a single shot on the draw. After that it's the same every shot. I'm not an expert, but to me it seems a bit over blown as an issue.

I like the da/sa. Maybe because the 92 was what I cut my teeth on, maybe because of the extra layer of safety reholstering, maybe because I've stopped a trigger pull just before breaking a shot, maybe because it's what I'm most familiar with.

Debating the merits of da/sa vs the world becomes vanilla ice cream vs all the other flavors at some point. There are alot of legitimate reasons to favor a given action or manual of arms, and there are a lot of feelings and personal preferences.


Totally agree.

The SCD is an amazing tool, it makes the Glock a viable option for me. However, unless I use it in conjunction with an NY1 trigger, it doesn’t work as well as a hammer. Even then, it’s still not as effective as a hammer. I understand the limitations imposed by the laws of physics, and I very much appreciate the SCD.


The hammer on my P-07 is a reassuring tool. If I have to place my gun in storage, say when entering the jail, then I can thumb the hammer as I place it in the proper storage area, or when retrieving it.

[Joe in PNG]

I did switch from TDA Beretta 92's to the 1911 & BHP, because I don't really have the practice time available to git gud and keep that very perishable skill when away from the USA.

[Jared]

I think this thread and others like it over the years are an excellent illustration of the fact that every single pistol on the market is a compromise. You look at the features of the pistol (including trigger system) then decide what compromises you are willing to live with. Then you spend your training time and energy working to get the most out of the good parts and mitigate the bad parts.

No pistol is a 100% easy button. They all require significant training to get the most out of them. Every pistol on the market has “something” about it that is probably less than ideal, but it’s fanboys will simply say is a training issue. I think everything with a pistol is a training issue. Again, my belief is that every single pistol on the market will require significant time and energy in training in order for the user to use it to its full potential. The majority of the debate is what things people are willing to invest that training time in doing.

[MattyD380]

I think this thread and others like it over the years are an excellent illustration of the fact that every single pistol on the market is a compromise. You look at the features of the pistol (including trigger system) then decide what compromises you are willing to live with. Then you spend your training time and energy working to get the most out of the good parts and mitigate the bad parts.

No pistol is a 100% easy button. They all require significant training to get the most out of them. Every pistol on the market has “something” about it that is probably less than ideal, but it’s fanboys will simply say is a training issue. I think everything with a pistol is a training issue. Again, my belief is that every single pistol on the market will require significant time and energy in training in order for the user to use it to its full potential. The majority of the debate is what things people are willing to invest that training time in doing.

Yup. Well said.

[Mark D]

...I had a serious altercation with a fellow where I ended up with a broken and dangling strong hand thumb and he ended up dead. I didn't kill him, he mostly killed himself via drug ingestion and excited delerium. I did not have to shoot him, but had I been alone I might have. It would have been very tough to get the thumb safety off. That's a second reason I won't carry a thumb safety equipped pistol.

There are few things easier to shoot accurately then a 5" 1911, IMO, but pure "shootability" isn't my primary decision point in a carry gun. I do not give two shits about an extra tenth of a second in split times or an extra 2" tighter group at 25y. I want something that shoots when I want it to shoot, doesn't shoot when I don't want it to shoot, that I can make good hits with at assessment speeds....

You've alluded to your in-fight hand injury before, but I didn't know the details. Thank you for elaborating here. Having experienced a broken metacarsal in a fight, and several hand injuries in MA training, your experience resonates with me. I'm glad everything worked out for you in the end.

I ocasionally remind myself that blazing splits and high level accuracy at speed is admirable (looking at you, @Duke (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=16355)), but that skillset is unlikely to be necessary for the threats that I might encounter. So I reconcile myself to my LEM HKs and move on. Obviously, other folks with different needs or goals will make different choices.

[ccmdfd]

I think this thread and others like it over the years are an excellent illustration of the fact that every single pistol on the market is a compromise. You look at the features of the pistol (including trigger system) then decide what compromises you are willing to live with. Then you spend your training time and energy working to get the most out of the good parts and mitigate the bad parts.

No pistol is a 100% easy button. They all require significant training to get the most out of them. Every pistol on the market has “something” about it that is probably less than ideal, but it’s fanboys will simply say is a training issue. I think everything with a pistol is a training issue. Again, my belief is that every single pistol on the market will require significant time and energy in training in order for the user to use it to its full potential. The majority of the debate is what things people are willing to invest that training time in doing.

Very very true.

Heck, handguns by definition are a compromise.
More oomph than fists, but nowhere near as much as a long gun. Yet much easier to carry and conceal.

Getting back to your point though, so many things to consider other than shootability. Dependability, concealability with your particular wardrobe, etc, etc.

[willie]

A good answer is that the forces that be have not seen the need for expanding offerings. If we had a sack full before us and tested them and discovered that each was reliable, I predict that there would be few if any advantages not found in other larger pistols.

[loper77]

There are a lot of people who don't want to walk around with a full size pistol shoved into the the front of their pants, but do want a TDA carry pistol. I would love to see an updated compact version of the browning BDM, but I don't think it will ever happen.

[BehindBlueI's]

I get it.

But since we aren’t hearing about 1,000 negligent discharges a day from cops with drawn guns on suspects, we can asses it’s probably not as easy to get shot - by mistake - by an LE with a Grock/m&p/320/Fn etc as we think it is

The trigger tab definitely helps on the Glock. A lot of 'security checks' of the trigger are on the side of the trigger more then on the face. It's just a subconscious reassurance the trigger is where the user thinks it is, and since the tab prevents movement if it's not depressed it acts as another barrier to even fairly aggressive security checks. I think this is also the basis for the likely correct notion that length of travel is at least as valuable as weight for preventing unintended discharges. I don't view safe/unsafe as a binary state and would certainly not argue Glocks are unsafe, but I would not argue they are equally safe to a DA trigger with a hammer, either.

When I tracked unintended discharges that resulted in injury or death, the *vast* majority shot themselves instead of someone else. Shooting themselves in the off hand was the #1 injury by a pretty decent margin, followed by legs/thigh/groin, followed by foot. Administrative handling was the usual cause of the hand shootings, the old failing to properly clear then pulling the trigger to break the gun down routine. The others were accidents on the draw or on the holster. The outliers were things like gut shots trying to catch a falling gun and one freak accident where a dropped gun perfectly hit the corner of an open drawer that went into the trigger guard.

My preference for a hammer equipped gun is heavily influenced by the safety of holstering and administrative handling where the hammer plays as much a role as the trigger does. Especially with appendix carry where an unintended discharge is likely to be catastrophic. The Glock/SCD is within my personal risk tolerance as well.

[Caballoflaco]

There are a lot of people who don't want to walk around with a full size pistol shoved into the the front of their pants, but do want a TDA carry pistol. I would love to see an updated compact version of the browning BDM, but I don't think it will ever happen.

There’s twenty-three of you and half a dozen are posting in this thread. The vast vast majority of people who buy guns want something that looks like a gun and makes loud noises when they pull the trigger. They’ll shoot it once or twice twice and then put it in an uncle mikes holster in the glovebox of their car and forget about it until it gets stolen.

There just isn’t a market for gun companies to invest in new designs that aren’t going to be competitive in the current market. If this wasn’t true then sig and Smith and Ruger wouldn’t have canceled their da/sa subcompact pistol lines. Newer Berettas and CZ’s and HK’s would sit on the shelves of local gunstores for ever back before the ‘rona. And that was with them being priced within $100 of a Glock and sometimes cheaper.

[Borderland]

There’s twenty-three of you and half a dozen are posting in this thread. The vast vast majority of people who buy guns want something that looks like a gun and makes loud noises when they pull the trigger. They’ll shoot it once or twice twice and then put it in an uncle mikes holster in the glovebox of their car and forget about it until it gets stolen.

There just isn’t a market for gun companies to invest in new designs that aren’t going to be competitive in the current market. If this wasn’t true then sig and Smith and Ruger wouldn’t have canceled their da/sa subcompact pistol lines. Newer Berettas and CZ’s and HK’s would sit on the shelves of local gunstores for ever back before the ‘rona. And that was with them being priced within $100 of a Glock and sometimes cheaper.

I find that to be spot on. My LGS never had more than a few new HK's for sale before 2020. Back in March I ask my dealer to locate a P30. He searched many distributors and found only one. I bought it immediately. DA/SA is fading away, especially since the military and LE started buying strikers for low bid. Nothing like a $200 striker if you need 100,000 or more.

[gato naranja]

There’s twenty-three of you and half a dozen are posting in this thread. The vast vast majority of people who buy guns want something that looks like a gun and makes loud noises when they pull the trigger. They’ll shoot it once or twice twice and then put it in an uncle mikes holster in the glovebox of their car and forget about it until it gets stolen.

There just isn’t a market for gun companies to invest in new designs that aren’t going to be competitive in the current market. If this wasn’t true then sig and Smith and Ruger wouldn’t have canceled their da/sa subcompact pistol lines. Newer Berettas and CZ’s and HK’s would sit on the shelves of local gunstores for ever back before the ‘rona. And that was with them being priced within $100 of a Glock and sometimes cheaper.

Probably too true for comfort. My dad used to say, "The masses are asses," and it must have struck a chord, since I seem to be out of step with the cattle.

Before SFA pistols were a (big) thing, I recall the bulk of them as being considered cheap crap by aficionados. As for myself, the PX4 Subcompact (something of a misnomer) has proven good enough for me, and I work around its limitations though I would nowadays just as soon carry a 640... assuming I could find one that met my approval and didn't require me donating an organ to purchase.

[Clusterfrack]

DA/SA is fading away, especially since the military and LE started buying $300 strikers. It's a damn shame because DA/SA is what I want when I buy a new pistol.

I'm not so sure it's fading away, but I agree that the TDA market is not growing. However, I'm confident that TDA will be with us for the long term--assuming we are 'allowed' to import and buy them. Why?
1. Despite the incursion of SFAs, TDA's are still common in foreign military and LE use.
2. TDAs are dominant in some divisions of IPSC and USPSA.
3. Gun hipsters like us will continue to buy them, and hopefully spread the word. We are good TDA ambassadors. I've been responsible for quite a few people either switching from SFAs or 1911s to TDAs, or getting a TDA as their first gun.

However, I still think TDAs are not the best choice for a lot of people. E.g. My older daughter has a G43 with a SCD.

Which brings me back to the OP about TDA subcompacts or mouseguns: maybe once a gun gets below a certain size, it's better to have a striker-fired gun with a SCD (Glock) or a snubby. Simpler mechanisms and controls work better in a tiny package.

[Kanye Wyoming]

There’s twenty-three of you and half a dozen are posting in this thread. The vast vast majority of people who buy guns want something that looks like a gun and makes loud noises when they pull the trigger. They’ll shoot it once or twice twice and then put it in an uncle mikes holster in the glovebox of their car and forget about it until it gets stolen.
This brings to mind a conversation the other night with my wife. We exchanged Hannukah gifts and her present to me was a squirrel-proof bird feeder to hang on our deck. Neither of us knows anything about birds, but it’s nice to see them when having morning coffee. She was telling me about all the questions the lady at the Wild Birds Unlimited store asked her. They had a bazillion different kinds of bird feed - which did she want? Just regular old bird feed. Well, do you want organic? Free range? Vegetarian? Vegan? GMO or non-GMO? Earthy and complex or light and fruity? Notes of caramel and currants? Microwave safe? Gluten free?

I embellish, of course. Her answer was “just regular old bird feed that the birds like to eat.” I said the lady at the store probably looked at you like I would if I were working in a gun store and you said you wanted to buy a gun. I would ask you whether you were looking for a rifle, a shotgun, a handgun. If a handgun, DA/SA or striker fired? To carry? Larger or smaller? Any particular caliber? Etc. And you replied that with everything going on the world, you just wanted a gun that fires bullets, do you have any of those?

[Clusterfrack]

Happy Hannukah. Generic squirrel-proof bird feeder? Maybe you really want the Squirrel Boss (https://squirrelboss.com)?


This brings to mind a conversation the other night with my wife. We exchanged Hannukah gifts and her present to me was a squirrel-proof bird feeder to hang on our deck. Neither of us knows anything about birds, but it’s nice to see them when having morning coffee. She was telling me about all the questions the lady at the Wild Birds Unlimited store asked her. They had a bazillion different kinds of bird feed - which did she want? Just regular old bird feed. Well, do you want organic? Free range? Vegetarian? Vegan? GMO or non-GMO? Earthy and complex or light and fruity? Notes of caramel and currants? Microwave safe? Gluten free?

I embellish, of course. Her answer was “just regular old bird feed that the birds like to eat.” I said the lady at the store probably looked at you like I would if I were working in a gun store and you said you wanted to buy a gun. I would ask you whether you were looking for a rifle, a shotgun, a handgun. If a handgun, DA/SA or striker fired? To carry? Larger or smaller? Any particular caliber? Etc. And you replied that with everything going on the world, you just wanted a gun that fires bullets, do you have any of those?

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm not so sure it's fading away, but I agree that the TDA market is not growing. However, I'm confident that TDA will be with us for the long term--assuming we are 'allowed' to import and buy them.

I agree. There's plenty of guns that aren't in cop/solider holsters much any more but still have a following among certain segments. The 1911, the N-frame, etc.

I wonder how many TDAs "Legion" marketing sold?

[Kanye Wyoming]

Happy Hannukah. Generic squirrel-proof bird feeder? Maybe you really want the Squirrel Boss (https://squirrelboss.com)?
Thanks.

Two different modes of operation to keep track of - the Squirrel Boss seems like the DA/SA of bird feeders. It all makes sense now. :D

[Borderland]

I agree. There's plenty of guns that aren't in cop/solider holsters much any more but still have a following among certain segments. The 1911, the N-frame, etc.

I wonder how many TDAs "Legion" marketing sold?

Looks like that was the rebranding of the standard P-2xx series. I can't see a lot of difference except the price and maybe some slide options for RDS. But I've never looked into it that much.

[BehindBlueI's]

Looks like that was the rebranding of the standard P-2xx series. I can't see a lot of difference except the price and maybe some slide options for RDS. But I've never looked into that much.

It was not so much a rebranding, it's a special edition. The "RX" indicates a RDS slide, not Legion. Legion P22X guns had a different finish, different trigger based on a Gray Guns trigger, different grips, different sights, and different controls. The grips and controls were an improvement, IMO. Many folks have trouble with the slide not locking back with a thumbs forward grip and accidentally holding down the slide stop and the Legion grip and reduced size lever addressed that. The trigger was different, if it was better then a standard trigger or SRT was debatable. The sights were kind of like the Ameri-glo agent sights, IIRC, and had a dark green insert. I didn't like the dark green as I see orange much better. I never bought one, I didn't want the trigger to be different from all my other Sigs and I'd have had to replace the sights anyway but there were several real differences over the Nitron (base) P2XX of the time.

[AMC]

It was not so much a rebranding, it's a special edition. The "RX" indicates a RDS slide, not Legion. Legion P22X guns had a different finish, different trigger based on a Gray Guns trigger, different grips, different sights, and different controls. The grips and controls were an improvement, IMO. Many folks have trouble with the slide not locking back with a thumbs forward grip and accidentally holding down the slide stop and the Legion grip and reduced size lever addressed that. The trigger was different, if it was better then a standard trigger or SRT was debatable. The sights were kind of like the Ameri-glo agent sights, IIRC, and had a dark green insert. I didn't like the dark green as I see orange much better. I never bought one, I didn't want the trigger to be different from all my other Sigs and I'd have had to replace the sights anyway but there were several real differences over the Nitron (base) P2XX of the time.

The differences between the Legion 22X series guns and the standard Nitron are mostly cosmetic, but some are nice. I agree the grips are nice, but I actually hate the reduced slide stop lever. Its unusable to me. I also suffered with the "my slide won't lock back!" Issue for years with my 226, and just accepted it. When I asked a Range staff guy from that time how to fix it, he said "Don't ever shoot empty". Wasnt until Mike Pannone's Advanced Pistol class that i fixed it. He wouldn't let myself and the other guy from my department leave until he fixed us, and he had a couple of good drills to do it.

I like the high undercut beneath the trigger guard, and the front strap checkering. I didn't think I'd like the XRay green front sight, but its grown on me. I normally prefer red/orange, but it'll do. As for the finish? I'm glad we spec'd the LE SKU Legions for our SWAT guys when we bought them, which comes with a Nitron finish. That PVD gray finish doesn't hold up, and flakes and rubs off. Sigs folks admitted as much to us, and recommended the LE SKU.

An interesting, and annoying as hell, thing about the Legions is that the frame under those proprietary grips is different. Standard grips, like E2's, won't fit without modification. Which we found out after the fact, of course.

[zaitcev]

So much complaining about companies not releasing new designs, yet nobody bought Springfield XD-E. It's like car guys talking about manual transmissions, but not buying them.

[Joe in PNG]

So much complaining about companies not releasing new designs, yet nobody bought Springfield XD-E. It's like car guys talking about manual transmissions, but not buying them.

But it's an XD. It's a Yugo or AMC Pacer with a MT.

[BehindBlueI's]

So much complaining about companies not releasing new designs, yet nobody bought Springfield XD-E. It's like car guys talking about manual transmissions, but not buying them.

That wasn't a "better" sub-compact. I was quite interested when it was announced. I was in plain clothes carrying a Sig TDA as my duty gun but a Shield as a BUG in an ankle holster. The "same" trigger system for both my duty and BUG had a lot of appeal to me. Then I got to talk to folks who had them for reviews prior to release. Zero people recommended it. One, a member here who doesn't post much any longer, offered the chance to shoot one with kind of a "you can shoot this one before it goes back...but keep expectations real low" sort of conversation. The feedback was so bad I didn't even bother to make the range trip.

Ernest Langdon sexes up a version with a trigger job, different springs, and a pinch of EL magic and while I'm sure it's a fine gun it's also a lot of money for what's still a Springfield.

[Jared]

So much complaining about companies not releasing new designs, yet nobody bought Springfield XD-E. It's like car guys talking about manual transmissions, but not buying them.

I wanted to like that gun. Handled one at a local gun shop several times. I never could really get over a couple of things that I just did not like about it. Think I handled and dry fired it on three separate occasions. Never put the money down.

I really really think that Smith and Wesson, Beretta or HK could have (still could actually) take the same size envelope and really make something of it. Springfield, not so much.

[MattyD380]

Not really a subcompact, but there’s the Rex Zero 1 compact. My appreciation for Sigs put that on my radar. But I figured I’d be better off investing in more P239s.

I think some Euro PDs use the Arex guns. Polish state police maybe? Not sure if that’s useful, one way or the other.

There’s also the Grand Power P11. Seems like that’s roughly P2000sk sized—so, subcompact territory. Got the rotary barrel, like a PX4. I’ve heard they shoot very well.

[rotorhead1026]

That wasn't a "better" sub-compact. I was quite interested when it was announced. I was in plain clothes carrying a Sig TDA as my duty gun but a Shield as a BUG in an ankle holster. The "same" trigger system for both my duty and BUG had a lot of appeal to me. Then I got to talk to folks who had them for reviews prior to release. Zero people recommended it. One, a member here who doesn't post much any longer, offered the chance to shoot one with kind of a "you can shoot this one before it goes back...but keep expectations real low" sort of conversation. The feedback was so bad I didn't even bother to make the range trip.

Ernest Langdon sexes up a version with a trigger job, different springs, and a pinch of EL magic and while I'm sure it's a fine gun it's also a lot of money for what's still a Springfield.

I did the Langdon trigger on mine; it’s much improved.

[olstyn]

So much complaining about companies not releasing new designs, yet nobody bought Springfield XD-E. It's like car guys talking about manual transmissions, but not buying them.

Every single car I have ever owned has been a manual transmission, so there's that...

[OfficeCat]

Every single car I have ever owned has been a manual transmission, so there's that...

Me too. :cool:

[HeavyDuty]

That wasn't a "better" sub-compact. I was quite interested when it was announced. I was in plain clothes carrying a Sig TDA as my duty gun but a Shield as a BUG in an ankle holster. The "same" trigger system for both my duty and BUG had a lot of appeal to me. Then I got to talk to folks who had them for reviews prior to release. Zero people recommended it. One, a member here who doesn't post much any longer, offered the chance to shoot one with kind of a "you can shoot this one before it goes back...but keep expectations real low" sort of conversation. The feedback was so bad I didn't even bother to make the range trip.

Ernest Langdon sexes up a version with a trigger job, different springs, and a pinch of EL magic and while I'm sure it's a fine gun it's also a lot of money for what's still a Springfield.

I’m having a hard time reconciling that the stock XD-E is a total dog, but if Langdon does a tune including replacing springs and a few parts it turns into something designer and sexy. Obviously the bones are good.

I’d love to know what the reviewer’s complaints were beyond “it’s an XD.”

[guitarsampsandguns]

The grip shape on a sig p239 infinitely better then a spingfield xde, at least to my hands. Talon grips helps some on the xde with grippiness but it doesn't change the parts of the grip shape that i don't like. That is what i like least about the xde. Of course different people's hands vary and could have opposite opinions.

Trigger feel and reach is much better on the sig. The spingfield xde trigger is ok and got a little better overtime. The shape and profile of lower profile hammer is way better on the sig. The Langdon xde hammer looks like that was addressed though from pics sig hammer still looks better to me. The safety/decocker on the springfield xde is actually quite good for a combo safety/decocker. A decocker only would have been fine/preferred. Since some people like the safety i have no objection them offering that. It does allow carrying cocked and locked which the sig does not. The sig decocker is excellent.

The stock sights on the xde are very good. The sig p239 sights are quite good too.

Xde is a little lighter but not massively so. With polymer frame, that is to be expected. Magazines are more plentiful and less expensive for the xde's. The Xde itself also costs lot less then the sig cost new.

[Bucky]

Every single car I have ever owned has been a manual transmission, so there's that...

That’s going to get harder and harder to find, if you like buying new.

I have 2 sports cars, one with an auto, one with a stick, but if I had to drop money on a roll race, give me the auto.

It’ll be interesting to see which fades away quicker, TDA or manual transmissions.

[olstyn]

That’s going to get harder and harder to find, if you like buying new.

I have 2 sports cars, one with an auto, one with a stick, but if I had to drop money on a roll race, give me the auto.

It’ll be interesting to see which fades away quicker, TDA or manual transmissions.

Generally speaking, I'd much rather buy lightly used and let someone else take the massive depreciation hit, but yes, manuals are becoming less and less popular over time. The real question is whether I'll have to shift to a dual clutch paddle shift system (at least they shift quickly and retain manual control!) at some point prior to internal combustion engines going away completely in favor of electric cars.

[Baldanders]

I could say a whole bunch on this topic, but it wouldn't add much, so I'll just say I really wish the G43x was available with a Kahr DAO action.

There is probably some form of Kahr 9mm in my future, alas. 😭

[medmo]

It’s been said before and I totally agree that market demand drives product availability. There just isn’t the demand for a TDA pistol in a sub compact size. The S&W genre of Gen 3 small single stack TDAs were the pinnacle. You can still find them at not unreasonable prices. If I purchased one for carry I’d do a spring refresh and replace the springs and talk to Novak about options to update the sights.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/884404681

[BehindBlueI's]

I’m having a hard time reconciling that the stock XD-E is a total dog, but if Langdon does a tune including replacing springs and a few parts it turns into something designer and sexy. Obviously the bones are good.

I’d love to know what the reviewer’s complaints were beyond “it’s an XD.”

I guess it depends on if you consider the trigger part of "the bones" or not and what level of "difficult to shoot acceptably well" you need for it to be labeled a dog. A lightweight not-particularly well stippled skinny gripped gun with a bad DA trigger and stiff controls probably isn't what most people were looking for. 12-14 lb DA trigger with a long take up, pretty noticeable stacking, and a hard wall just before the break made the gun difficult to shoot well in DA which sort of messed up the point of having a DA/SA gun to begin with. There's some older threads here you can look up, lots of people were excited for this originally but excitement tapered off pretty quickly. Making the trigger into something that allows acceptable accuracy would seem to change the nature of the gun, but I don't know how well EL's version has done. I do note how much chatter there is about his Berettas vs the XD-E, which is probably telling.

[RJ]

...It's like car guys talking about manual transmissions, but not buying them.

This.


...Never put the money down....



This


...If I purchased one for carry...



and This.

Kinda a clue, when you have a group of enthusiasts on a gun forum, discussing TDA vs SFA, and a percentage of those enthusiasts just don't buy them.

It was brought up earlier, that the switch over from Berettas' to SFA Sigs in the military context would further the demise of TDA market. I agree. At the moment, you have excellent, proficient shooters like Cory who have extreme familiarity with TDA guns from a service perspective, and chose to use one for CCW. That is cool, and makes all kinds of sense.

But as new soldiers enter, and then end up leaving the military over the next 5-10, years the pool of "experience", if you will, in the training market space that is populated (currently) by ex .mil TDA experts will diminish. Eventually, pretty much all ex service members will have been shooting Sig's M17s and M18s. Soon, no one will be around who fondly remembers their service career shooting Berettas.

Lastly, and the real reason I wanted to post in this thread again: :cool: I am as much an MT guy as anyone here. I recognize that I am slower and less efficient to shift, than modern double-clutch/PDK transmissions. If life was only about Nurburgring times, or launches at the drag strip, I'd get one. But I vastly prefer the "involvement" of an MT over an AT, good though they be these days. Maybe when I get older and can't push a clutch pedal... :)

[Clusterfrack]

Rumor is the CZ Rami has been discontinued.

[HeavyDuty]

(snip)...Maybe when I get older and can't push a clutch pedal... :)

I had a horrible few weeks when it looked like I might lose my left foot due to issues re-reconstructing my ankle after the break. I decided if it happened I would have to sell my 6MT Miata and buy one with an automatic, as much of an affront before the Gods that would be...

[medmo]

This.



This



and This.

Kinda a clue, when you have a group of enthusiasts on a gun forum, discussing TDA vs SFA, and a percentage of those enthusiasts just don't buy them.

It was brought up earlier, that the switch over from Berettas' to SFA Sigs in the military context would further the demise of TDA market. I agree. At the moment, you have excellent, proficient shooters like Cory who have extreme familiarity with TDA guns from a service perspective, and chose to use one for CCW. That is cool, and makes all kinds of sense.

But as new soldiers enter, and then end up leaving the military over the next 5-10, years the pool of "experience", if you will, in the training market space that is populated (currently) by ex .mil TDA experts will diminish. Eventually, pretty much all ex service members will have been shooting Sig's M17s and M18s. Soon, no one will be around who fondly remembers their service career shooting Berettas.

Lastly, and the real reason I wanted to post in this thread again: :cool: I am as much an MT guy as anyone here. I recognize that I am slower and less efficient to shift, than modern double-clutch/PDK transmissions. If life was only about Nurburgring times, or launches at the drag strip, I'd get one. But I vastly prefer the "involvement" of an MT over an AT, good though they be these days. Maybe when I get older and can't push a clutch pedal... :)

When I said "if I purchased one" I meant specifically a S&W 3913 not a TDA pistol. Beretta TDA 92s and Px4s are what I carry. I have two S&W 6906s and a Sig 229 in the safe that I did train with and carry prior to Ernest's development of the Px4 Compact Carry. I own and shoot other pistols that are SFA. The TDA action is what I prefer to carry and have so exclusively for many years. My money and mouth are perfectly aligned. Please don't include me in the percentages. It would be erroneous to do so. Also, I quit on subcompact pistols a few years ago as no matter how much training I invest they are too small for me to shoot as accurate and fast as a compact sized pistol.

[BehindBlueI's]

Kinda a clue, when you have a group of enthusiasts on a gun forum, discussing TDA vs SFA, and a percentage of those enthusiasts just don't buy them.


In fairness, I already did the vast majority of my buying years ago. I think I've bought exactly one new gun in the last two years. Nothing new fills any niche I don't already have covered and unless it's a real improvement I don't see the need to spend money on a niche already filled.

[RJ]

Rumor is the CZ Rami has been discontinued.

I looked at the CZ web site to get an idea of what that is. I must say I'm surprised it'd be discontinued. TDA, safety, 10/14 rounds, 26 oz (I assume unloaded?), 3" barrel; It looks like it has a lot going for it in the small DA/SA arena. Almost seems like a teeny Beretta. (not that I know anything about Berettas, or CZs, for that matter.

Any thoughts as to why? Poor sales? Something better coming along from CZ? (not trying to be a d1ck; just asking.)

[Clusterfrack]

I looked at the CZ web site to get an idea of what that is. I must say I'm surprised it'd be discontinued. TDA, safety, 10/14 rounds, 26 oz (I assume unloaded?), 3" barrel, looks like it has a lot going for it. Seems like a teeny Beretta.

Any thoughts as to why? Poor sales? Something better coming along from CZ? (not trying to be a d1ck; just asking.)

I hope the rumor is false. But, the Rami is a funny little gun that hasn’t really caught on. It feels larger than it is. That’s a good thing for shootability, but when people are comparing subcompacts, it seems big even though it’s not.

As well, there have been more reports of malfunctions than in other typically very reliable CZs (but to be fair, that’s anecdotal).

I’m guessing that poor sales are the reason. The p10M is probably the ‘replacement’.

https://www.czub.cz/en/firearms-and-products-product/cz-p-10-m

[Cory]

At the moment, you have excellent, proficient shooters like Cory who have extreme familiarity with TDA guns from a service perspective, and chose to use one for CCW. That is cool, and makes all kinds of sense.

But as new soldiers enter. . .

Thanks for the kind words. While I have a familarity, I don't consider myself an excellent shooter. I'll accept proficent I guess, lol.

I think you're right. Im just about the youngest of my era of OIF veterans (Im 29), and M9s in general will fade. It's a shame because you can get amazing levels of performance from one. Guys like Stoeger, Les, and the like have shown they are capable guns on par with current production. Perhaps my love of 92s is nostalgia, but they work.

[OfficeCat]

That’s going to get harder and harder to find, if you like buying new.

I have 2 sports cars, one with an auto, one with a stick, but if I had to drop money on a roll race, give me the auto.

It’ll be interesting to see which fades away quicker, TDA or manual transmissions.

It kind of makes car shopping easier as it greatly reduces the number of options. I suppose the same could be said of limiting yourself to TDA pistols.

[Jared]

This.



This



and This.

Kinda a clue, when you have a group of enthusiasts on a gun forum, discussing TDA vs SFA, and a percentage of those enthusiasts just don't buy them.

It was brought up earlier, that the switch over from Berettas' to SFA Sigs in the military context would further the demise of TDA market. I agree. At the moment, you have excellent, proficient shooters like Cory who have extreme familiarity with TDA guns from a service perspective, and chose to use one for CCW. That is cool, and makes all kinds of sense.

But as new soldiers enter, and then end up leaving the military over the next 5-10, years the pool of "experience", if you will, in the training market space that is populated (currently) by ex .mil TDA experts will diminish. Eventually, pretty much all ex service members will have been shooting Sig's M17s and M18s. Soon, no one will be around who fondly remembers their service career shooting Berettas.

Lastly, and the real reason I wanted to post in this thread again: :cool: I am as much an MT guy as anyone here. I recognize that I am slower and less efficient to shift, than modern double-clutch/PDK transmissions. If life was only about Nurburgring times, or launches at the drag strip, I'd get one. But I vastly prefer the "involvement" of an MT over an AT, good though they be these days. Maybe when I get older and can't push a clutch pedal... :)

Oh, I’ve put plenty of money into DA/SA guns and will continue to do so. I currently own one striker pistol. I bear them no ill will whatsoever, but I greatly prefer the DA/SA or a DAO system (including HM LEM types) for any kind of carry, HD, or competition work. I just thought the XDE was a dog.

I don’t see the DA/SA going the way of the dodo. People still use and carry DA revolvers. Hell, there’s still a noticeable market for SA revolvers. Individual models will probably disappear in time, but I’d be surprised if the entire system vanished in the next 20 years.

[Duelist]

This.



This



and This.

Kinda a clue, when you have a group of enthusiasts on a gun forum, discussing TDA vs SFA, and a percentage of those enthusiasts just don't buy them.

It was brought up earlier, that the switch over from Berettas' to SFA Sigs in the military context would further the demise of TDA market. I agree. At the moment, you have excellent, proficient shooters like Cory who have extreme familiarity with TDA guns from a service perspective, and chose to use one for CCW. That is cool, and makes all kinds of sense.

But as new soldiers enter, and then end up leaving the military over the next 5-10, years the pool of "experience", if you will, in the training market space that is populated (currently) by ex .mil TDA experts will diminish. Eventually, pretty much all ex service members will have been shooting Sig's M17s and M18s. Soon, no one will be around who fondly remembers their service career shooting Berettas.

Lastly, and the real reason I wanted to post in this thread again: :cool: I am as much an MT guy as anyone here. I recognize that I am slower and less efficient to shift, than modern double-clutch/PDK transmissions. If life was only about Nurburgring times, or launches at the drag strip, I'd get one. But I vastly prefer the "involvement" of an MT over an AT, good though they be these days. Maybe when I get older and can't push a clutch pedal... :)

I already own/have owned a bunch of TDAs. I may own more in the future. The Springfield was cool to read about, but once I handled one, didn’t turn me on at all. I already have better guns I don’t use enough.