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View Full Version : What's your definition of, or threshold for, range and gun-handling safety?



rob_s
06-25-2012, 01:11 PM
This has been a topic of some discussion in my various circles of late, and I'm interested in hearing from a wider audience.

For example, what's your tolerance level for being swept? for sweeping other? Is it OK to sweep a foot with an empty gun but not a head with a loaded gun, or what is your in-between? Do you have a different definition of "swept" than "pointed at"? Do you believe that every range session needs to have a safety brief? Or that none do? If in-between, what does that entail and what is the determining factor(s)?

Feel free to add more to the discussion. What I'm finding is that more and more people get interested in competition and training we get more and more shooters that are starting with less and less experience, and more and more instructors and supervisors that don't know how to deal with people at that level properly.

JV_
06-25-2012, 01:20 PM
Is it OK to sweep a foot with an empty gun but not a head with a loaded gun, or what is your in-between?

Are you excluding or including sweeping yourself, especially the lower extremities, during a draw or reholster?

I see people, especially those carrying IWB at 4 o'clock, sweep their strong side feet/legs all the time. There's also a lot of sweeping of the entire leg for those carrying in collapsible holsters where they have a hard time getting the muzzle in to the holster, and they wiggle it around.

gtmtnbiker98
06-25-2012, 01:29 PM
If you carry daily, isn't it nearly impossible not to sweep yourself at some point?

rob_s
06-25-2012, 01:33 PM
Are you excluding or including sweeping yourself, especially the lower extremities, during a draw or reholster?

I see people, especially those carrying IWB at 4 o'clock, sweep their strong side feet/legs all the time. There's also a lot of sweeping of the entire leg for those carrying in collapsible holsters where they have a hard time getting the muzzle in to the holster, and they wiggle it around.


If you carry daily, isn't it nearly impossible not to sweep yourself at some point?

Hopefully we can get beyond this.

If it's ok to sweep your leg when you holster, is it then ok to sweep someone's head when you're walking around the range?

I'm asking questions here. What is YOUR standard. What are YOU ok with? How do YOU address it when carrying or working or at the range? Is it different for each of those situations or others? Do you behave differently than you accept from others (i.e., is it ok for an instructor to sweep the students but not vice/versa?)? Does it make a difference to you if it's a loaded vs. unloaded gun?

Jay Cunningham
06-25-2012, 01:33 PM
That's quite a question, Rob.

Not a bad one in any way, but wow I can see this thread getting contentious.

:cool:

rob_s
06-25-2012, 01:34 PM
That's quite a question, Rob.

Not a bad one in any way, but wow I can see this thread getting contentious.

:cool:

I hope that it does. But we're going need more replies, and more depth, and more people willing to offer an opinion, for it to get there. :p

gtmtnbiker98
06-25-2012, 01:49 PM
I'm sure that it will become educational:

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd254/gtmtnbiker98/popcorn-gazelle-1.gif

JV_
06-25-2012, 01:52 PM
What is YOUR standard.You can sweep yourself, within reason, you can't sweep anyone else. It's (probably) going to happen when holstering/drawing, but it's not OK to stick your hand in front of the muzzle during a press check.


How do YOU address it when carrying or working or at the range?Unless it's an urgent matter, like someone handling a gun behind the line, I'll notify the on-duty RSO. If it's urgent, I'll tell them, otherwise the RSO can deal with it.


Does it make a difference to you if it's a loaded vs. unloaded gun?For me, in general, there is no difference. But it does become difficult to do things like a between-the-knee/thigh WHO/SHO reload without pointing the muzzle at your own knees. This probably follows the drawing/holstering relaxed enforcement.

In summary, some of the rules are a bit "relaxed" when you're doing it to yourself, it's never OK to do it to someone else. Should you avoid it when doing it to yourself? Absolutely. If you have other methods which avoid the issue, those might be preferred.

peterb
06-25-2012, 02:02 PM
OK....

I try not to point my muzzle at any of my body parts, or at anybody else. I know I'm not perfect and I believe that if I shoot long enough I will have an AD or ND. If my muzzle control is good nobody else will be hurt.

I will do things with an unloaded gun(demonstrate, try a new technique) that I will not do with a loaded gun, but I still try to maintain good muzzle awareness and control.

If I see a muzzle pointed at me, I get uncomfortable. If the same person does it more than once or does it deliberately I'll say something.

If an instructor wants to demonstrate a point that requires muzzling someone, they should first show empty and let the person who will be muzzled verify it.

If you want to do a lot of training that involves pointing guns at people, get a bluegun/training barrel/simgun/etc.

JV_
06-25-2012, 02:04 PM
If you want to do a lot of training that involves pointing guns at people, get a bluegun/training barrel/simgun/etc.I was in a class where I swept someone with a SIRT and was corrected. They thought the SIRT and blue guns should be treated as regular guns.

peterb
06-25-2012, 02:09 PM
I was in a class where I swept someone with a SIRT and was corrected. They thought the SIRT and blue guns should be treated as regular guns.

I'd think that would depend on the skill being taught. Gun handling 101 and force-on-force are very different animals.

rob_s
06-25-2012, 02:23 PM
Another follow-on, do you have different safety standards for yourself vs. others? For example, if you have an unloaded gun in your hand are you ok with sweeping yourself but still would not sweep others?

and this is about more than sweeping, FWIW.

What about things like dedicated bagging/unbagging areas on a range? Is a brief at every event a necessity? Good idea? waste of time?

Shokr21
06-25-2012, 02:35 PM
I'd have to say that I'm as close to zero tolerance as possible in regards to muzzle and overall weapons safety.

I consider any gun loaded at all times (as we all should).

I strive to never muzzle myself or anyone around me. I'm not saying I've never swept myself while holstering, but it's something I try to minimize or rather eliminate.

I get nervous when we use "rubber ducks" (rubberized m16/m4) in training and some idiot thinks it's completely ok to point the damned thing at my head. I know that nothing will come of it, but it still bothers me. The military is a terrible place for weapons safety, we put a blank adapter on a weapon or leave the bolt out of it and people think it's completely ok to disregard all weapons safety rules. It drives me insane!

A weapon is a mode of destruction, treat it as such and nothing else and we'll get along just fine. Act in a safe manner always. Treat the weapon as if you were on the other end of it. The golden rule equated to firearms if you will.

ETA:
A safety brief is and always will be mailed in by people who have heard and seen it all (or so they think). I do think it's important for competitions and ranges where not everyone is familiar with each other or proper procedures. A safety brief is a necessity in my mind.

Sparks2112
06-25-2012, 02:57 PM
I spend a large majority of my day having customers point empty firearms at my nuts. For some reason the fact I just checked empty is small comfort to me. :(

As a result I'd like to think I've developed a hyper awareness of my muzzle direction at all times.

JAD
06-25-2012, 02:57 PM
The four rules exist to prevent unintentionally shooting something or someone. They are effective to the degree that they are observed, proportionally; in other words, if they are absolutely observed, they are absolutely effective. Deviations always detract from the absolute, but shooting isn't an absolutely safe activity, and most people who engage in it know that.

'All guns are always loaded' can be practically applied as "never tell me (or yourself) "it's OK, it isn't loaded."" In other words, it may or may not be loaded; but don't break rule three just because you think it isn't. I am tolerant of dry fire, by myself and other persons, without the encumbrance of a training barrel (though they're certainly a good idea and I do own one) -- but I don't break rule 3 when I do it, and I don't like other people breaking rule 3. I always 1/100th expect a 'bang' when rules one and two are broken at the same time. It's a little unnerving, but it's good to take dry fire seriously.

Rule 2 is similar -- I'm tolerant of breaking it intentionally but if others or I appear to be breaking it unintentionally I get really concerned. This came up recently for me when messing with a Browning High Power -- I had to slow down my reloads because for whatever reason I wasn't convinced I was in hard register when going full speed. I didn't actually catch myself, but I had a notion.

Rule 3 is more absolute for me. I guess I am moderately willing to destroy my butt cheek, heel, and calf; when I holster at 3:30, I may be covering them a bit. I don't like it, but that's what it takes for me to wear an IWB holster and an IWB is what it takes for me to CCW, so it's a pretty conscious choice. AIWB is messy; I'm sure it will be discussed enough in this thread. Other than holster-related stuff, I am completely intolerant of all sweeping, in myself and in others. Other than as related to holstering, I can't think of a reason you should ever have to even flirt with sweeping. In training, I expect the trainer to have absolute muzzle discipline; if he has to demonstrate something that requires pointing in, I expect him to use a blue gun or a slide-less frame. Rule three to me is really the core rule; everything else can go to hell, and if you have good enough muzzle discipline you'll do no more than startle the horses.

I am cautious about rule 4 both on the range and when thinking through engagement scenarios. I try to think about what direction I would step when I'm in the stop and rob, in order to create the best possible non-cashier backstop.

BaiHu
06-25-2012, 03:58 PM
I think the 4 rules are incredibly important and as doctorpogo said, especially if they are observed absolutely.

Now that I've donned my flame retardent suit on, I will add that I am hyper aware when I am around people that are new to me or people that I know have poor booger-hook-discipline or muzzle control, b/c they are the most important 2 on a square range. I'm already assuming it is loaded, since we're in a range and I'm quite certain that 3 of the 4 sides of the square are relatively 'safe' to shoot towards. However, if I'm shooting with people I trust, like rsa-otc and TGS as well as other people in my local area, I tend to let my guard down. This doesn't mean that I don't look/pay attention, it's just that I feel that I've developed enough trust in them, that I'm not 'watching them like a hawk.'

That being said, I have a friend of mine this past Friday muzzle me as he was taking his gun out of his case and he had no clue that he muzzled me, but I recognized that his finger was indexed on the slide.

So, what do you say and how do you say it? I've seen some people lose their sh*t before and one time my own friend lost his sh*t on me b/c he thought I did something.

What I'd like to add here is how do you handle it if it is a stranger vs an acquaintance/friend? Especially if you're in a range like mine, where the RSO is everyone that is present and there is no designated RSO with a badge/gun/authority?

FWIW, I shoot from AIWB even though I can't carry in NJ, but I've also developed my own little contortion to minimize flagging/sweeping my Johnson:
1. I keep my thumb on the hammer during the whole re-holstering process (I learned this from TGS and I know people who do it whether it is a hammer/gadget/striker indicator 'pin').
2: I point the muzzle away from my body in b/w my feet.
3. I suck my stomach in and this tends to pull the opening of the holster toward me and the muzzle away from me.
4. I smoothly push the muzzle down and forward pushing the muzzle away from my body and pressing the grip into my belly.

When drawing, I do everything the same except sucking in my belly and having my thumb on the hammer-it is flagged against my belly.

ToddG
06-25-2012, 04:03 PM
For example, what's your tolerance level for being swept? for sweeping other? Is it OK to sweep a foot with an empty gun but not a head with a loaded gun, or what is your in-between? Do you have a different definition of "swept" than "pointed at"?

In my classes I always tell people that the muzzle rule is the golden rule. You can break all the others simultaneously and worst case scenario is you'll have an embarrassingly loud noise. Pointing guns at others is never OK. It's a bright neon sign that the handler isn't aware of what he's doing and as such isn't someone I want to be around.

Having said that, I've been to countless events and meetings -- like SHOT -- where that rule is ignored by almost everyone. It's bad but it's reality.

Re: blue guns, SIRTs, etc. I am always amazed at people who insist on treating them like live guns. They were specifically invented so we could do things with them that we wouldn't do with live guns! If you cannot differentiate between how you handle a chunk of solid plastic and a real handgun, you probably shouldn't own either one of them.


Do you believe that every range session needs to have a safety brief?

No, not every session. For example, a bunch of the Staff and friends shoot together regularly. We don't have a big meeting about range safety beforehand because we've spent a hundred or more hours on the range with one another. We all know the rules and have proven it countless times. We all know the medical emergency procedure, where the blow out kits are, etc. Candidly, if someone wasn't competent enough to be trusted that much, he wouldn't be invited to attend.

In general and especially with unknown or less experienced shooters, though, yes, I think it's always a good idea to cover range safety. Even if people "know" the rules, they don't always KNOW the rules. A quick refresher before the day's activities is a good way to get people thinking along those lines. It reminds them that first and foremost we're trying to be safe.

jetfire
06-25-2012, 04:07 PM
I say this (or a variation of it) before any class I teach: "Gun handling rules: please obey the four rules. Also, and I can't stress this enough, don't point your gun at me. Don't point it at your classmates. Don't point it any of your bits you don't want shot off." Then I'll explain various range rules, etc.

As far as a safety briefing goes, it depends entirely on the environment. If I'm at a class or a match with unknown shooters, I want there to be a safety brief so any newbies understand what the range rules. I also really, really like having safety areas if you need to screw with your gun. I've had guns stripped down to the bare frame on a safety table and rebuilt in between stages once, so I really like 'em.

As far as gunhandling on public ranges go, if someone is breaking one of the posted rules and there aren't any ROs around, I'll ask them very politely to stop, and point to the sign or whatever. If they don't, I'll either 1) move, or 2) get an RO.

Ultimately, my selfish bottom line is "If you want to get a Darwin Award for yourself, no skin off my ass. Just don't endanger my lovely ass while you do it and we're cool."

JAD
06-25-2012, 04:09 PM
So thread split maybe, but I'm at the indoor range a timer or two ago. There's a glassed in observation area with chairs behind the line of stalls. I glance behind me (swear to god it was a three sixty, really, I'm that ninja) and I see bubba showing betty this or that about his plastic pistol (don't know what kind, but the bore was freaking HUGE) directly behind me. Bubba looks like he's an excellent DM and betty has white girl dreads, so I'm thinking this is going to be a fun interaction. I reload, holster, and step back (leaving my izzy on the bench, by the way, rather than the Yost high power that went with me). "Hi there! Could you not point your pistol at me please?" Bubba's mouth flaps open, and I can see "but it's not loaded" bubbling in his medula. "Yes sir. Of course. Sorry."

I'm sure my tone was friendly. My wife says that when I say stuff like that it does not sound or seem friendly even though I think it sounds friendly.

Bubba rotates back to his stall after a while and resumes instruction. I smile and nod at Betty as I leave, who is picking up each piece of brass as it hits the floor. Betty's mouth flaps open, but sometimes it's nice to be wearing passive earpro.

ToddG
06-25-2012, 04:15 PM
I've had people at the range who, upon getting some personal one-on-one time from me free of charge to adjust their unsafe "pointing guns at other people absentmindedly" habits, have actually complained to the range management that I wasn't being nice. I'm not sure how nice you expect me to be when you've pointed a loaded gun at me multiple times on the range, but anything above zero is an unrealistic expectation on your part.

Seriously. They're guns. Pointing them at people anywhere else means those people get to shoot you. Being on the range is not some kind of protected zone where you get to be criminally negligent around me, thanks.

BaiHu
06-25-2012, 04:26 PM
....Pointing guns at people anywhere else means those people get to shoot you. Being on the range is not some kind of protected zone where you get to be criminally negligent around me, thanks.

I'm thinking we need a PT shirt that says this. I'd be in line to get one in 3 colors: Tacticool Tan, Glock Green, and Badass Black.

Hope you didn't mind that I edited that a bit for clarity :D

bdcheung
06-25-2012, 04:32 PM
Re: blue guns, SIRTs, etc. I am always amazed at people who insist on treating them like live guns. They were specifically invented so we could do things with them that we wouldn't do with live guns! If you cannot differentiate between how you handle a chunk of solid plastic and a real handgun, you probably shouldn't own either one of them.

Tangent, but I had a blue gun pointed at me at a class I did recently (as part of a demonstration) and, even though I knew it was a hunk of plastic and totally inert, it still gave me a really uneasy feeling in my gut.

I thought that was the weirdest, most irrational response I could have had. But still, seeing it pointed at me was unnerving.

MikeyC
06-25-2012, 05:00 PM
I think safety briefs are imperative for groups of unknown shooters, particularly intro shooting classes, and any sort of shooting event open to the public. I'm inclined to think that safe handling zones are overly dogmatic for cold guns, but that's me. I spent 3 years working at a shotgun range after high school and the most dangerous thing I ever saw (repeatedly) was any dude trying to teach his girlfriend/wife how to shoot. Because I spend most of my time at public ranges and public events I'm more inclined to be patient with heavier handed safety regulations, I just prefer that those regulations are clear enough to be followed without additional explanation.

The last time I got swept on a public range I had my 9 year old with me, my response while not rude was certainly far from friendly. I also spoke loud enough to make sure the entire range heard me.

Al T.
06-25-2012, 05:09 PM
"but it's not loaded"

I have responded previously "mine is". I regard getting flagged as a crime (and it here in SC), regardless of weapon status or intent.

Rob, I'll reply with more in a bit.

tremiles
06-25-2012, 05:45 PM
I'm not an instructor, but I frequently bring guests with me to shoot, and they often shoot my guns. I always give a safety brief to my guests before approaching the range and uncasing. I'm ultimately responsible for my guns and I reinforce how important the rules are for their AND my benefit.

I have zero tolerance for getting flagged/swept. My reaction to it depends on the situation. If I'm at a monitored range, I'll report to the range officer/operator. If I'm at an unmonitored range, like the Ocala National Forest public range, I'll politely approach the offender and politely advise them of what they did. If I get grief or it happens a second time, I simply leave. I'm not going to argue with an armed idiot.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2

rsa-otc
06-25-2012, 06:04 PM
The only person who has been hurt over the 32 years I have been running classes is me. I had a student turn point the gun at me and pull the trigger to prove to me it was empty. BaiHu & TGS can vouch for the bullet graze scar on my arm proving it was not as empty as the student assumed. A few years later I had another student dry fire in the center of my back as I was changing a target (the company’s personnel manager and I had a long talk about the intelligence of her new hires after that). So as you can imagine I'm pretty sensitive about this kind of thing.

I run a “Semi Hot Range”; everyone reports to the range with a cold weapon, at my command the entire class reports to the line and loads on my command. From that point on the students are responsible for keeping their guns loaded until the end of the class at which time when they finish the last exercise they will holster an unloaded weapon. There's no "let me check my weapon to see if it is loaded" at the beginning of any exercise. The weapon should have been topped off at the end of the last exercise. All loading and unloading is done on the firing line and not anywhere else on the range unless under my direction.

Normally I don't want anyone flagged by a muzzle; I even harp about support hands holding holster flaps out of the way and people flagging themselves as the gun passes into the holster. Sometimes depending on their stance students will inadvertently flag a foot or knee while drawing and I have to accept this. But holstering I try to instill an awareness of the muzzle in all my students and they shouldn’t have to flag a body part while holstering. AIWB is a different creature and this weekend was the first time I had those on one of my ranges and guys I was watching. But flagging anyone else is verboten period.

When doing demos that may require pointing guns at others the blue guns come out. If for any reason I have to use a real gun because a blue gun is unavailable, the entire class verifies that the gun is clear, the only person that the gun is pointed at is me and I have physical control of the weapon during the entire demo.

When I go to public ranges or gun shops I find myself flagged constantly. It unnerves me and I try to avoid those places when they are busy lessening the likely hood of being flagged.

dbm
06-25-2012, 06:08 PM
Just a fun tale from me to break the mood. One day at the local outdoor range, a car with two middle-aged couples pulled up. They took the station next to me. Their looks and actions immediately gave me pause. Don't think they had been drinking, but looked like the types where that would not have been out of the question. After breaking out a couple of revolvers, one woman took the position and emptied what looked like a .38 of some brand down range. She then turned to the other woman, pointed the gun/barrel directly at her chest and said Ok it's your turn. I really couldn't say if her finger was on the trigger or not because I was IMMEDIATELY in the process of collecting my stuff and leaving.

Worst range experience I've ever had.

Jared
06-25-2012, 06:28 PM
My personal threshold for having a gun pointed at me is zero tolerance. I won't have it, and I won't do it to others. That said, I shoot at home, and after reading plenty of public range stories across the 'net, I'm very glad I have what I have. I do have trusted friends and family shoot with me here at times, and my personal rules on that are that you are only loaded on the firing line (wherever that may be at the time). If you aren't up shooting, I want to see the action open (slide locked back, cylinder swung out, bolt locked to the rear, etc) until you are on the firing line.

That said, I have had one ND in my life, when I was at my fathers house. I was doing a sort of "Mad Minute" drill with a bolt action 22 that had a very light trigger. I was changing mags, went to cycle the bolt home, my hand slipped off the bolt as it was closing, and from there, the momentum of the hand caused my thumb to slap the trigger as it passed it. One of Eley's fine TENEX rounds sailed off to the general direction of the berm, but may have gone over it, I'm still unsure, it's been several years. I'm a lot more careful myself when I do the sorts of things with bolt guns now, and actually became a much safer shooter from the experience.

As far as demo's and the like, I believe that's what Blue Guns and training barrels are for myself. My cousin (who has quite the collection of all things firearm related) has a couple of blue guns, and we have used them at times to try different HD scenarios, and they don't bother me. He has a training barrel for another of his guns, but I myself always preferred the Blue Guns. I didn't protest (we were at his home), but he could tell what my preference was, so we went with that.

I remember a horror story from a year or two ago that was on another forum about a class where there seemed to be a lot of flagging going on, and I would have left that class personally.

rob_s
06-26-2012, 10:11 AM
Thanks for the replies guys.

My take goes along the same lines as many of yours. I have a group of guys I go to the range with monthly, and other than when we have a new guy join us there really isn't much in the way of a safety brief. Everyone knows where the safe table is, everyone knows where to keep their muzzle, etc.

My view is that if you have a gun in your hand, loaded or not, you need to be aware of where the muzzle is pointed. Always. and I don't believe there is an acceptable time to point a gun at someone on the range (obviously excluding some sort of violent escalation that just happens to be at a range) regardless of whether it's loaded or unloaded.

In a training environment, I think it's always beneficial to review the rules with everyone, and to have policies in place that stop problems before they happen, and to be clear about where and when guns are to be handled. Some find the idea of a safe table or safe area to be too much, but I don't see a way that it hurts anything, and especially when dealing with shooters new to that environment (whether it be training or a match) it can help prevent a lot of problems. "don't handle a firearm unless on the firing line or at the safe area. Don't handle ammunition at the safe area." Seems pretty easy and straightforward to me. Standing behind the line and realizing that you're not loaded and everyone else is, is not an acceptable time to whip out your hogleg and charge it up, pointing it at the backs of everyone else.

I don't have a problem leaving the line with loaded handguns if they are holstered, but I'd always prefer to clear out carbines first in the majority of class environments. Something about a rifle hanging in front of you just seems to be too much for some people to resist fiddling with. And once they start paying attention to other things that muzzle starts to swing wildly when bending over, etc.

What seems to get missed a lot is that the need for perhaps Draconian safety measures is inverse the the level of the shooter, but that you have to base your range safety standards on the lowest level of shooter. So when someone says something like "we don't need all that extra safety stuff" they are usually right that THEY don't, but others on the range most likely do.

peterb
06-26-2012, 10:49 AM
Tangent, but I had a blue gun pointed at me at a class I did recently (as part of a demonstration) and, even though I knew it was a hunk of plastic and totally inert, it still gave me a really uneasy feeling in my gut.

I thought that was the weirdest, most irrational response I could have had. But still, seeing it pointed at me was unnerving.

Good. It should feel wrong.

The reason a blue gun is pointed at you in training is usually to simulate a bad situation. You're supposed to react as if it were real.

When I do good EMS training scenarios with simulated "victims" I still get a knot in my gut if they don't go well.

TCinVA
06-26-2012, 12:44 PM
For example, what's your tolerance level for being swept?


Low. As in I typically say something when it happens. I try the friendly approach at first. If that doesn't work, I try the less friendly approach. If that doesn't work I either involve range staff or, since I'm often at a range where there either is no staff or they are useless, I leave.

The vast majority of the time people who are safety problems in their gun handling do not respond generously to correction. Quite the opposite. Given that they are being morons about a legit safety issue I generally cut my losses rather than invoke a confrontation with an armed idiot.



for sweeping other?


I don't tolerate it. I tend to get pretty pissed off at myself I find that I've even come close.



Is it OK to sweep a foot with an empty gun but not a head with a loaded gun, or what is your in-between?


For the most part I try to handle "empty" guns essentially the same as loaded ones. Pointing a gun at someone is, at the very least, impolite...and so I tend to not do it. In gunstores if I'm handling a firearm I try to do so in the safest direction I can find even though the gun's empty.

I don't really process a difference between a loaded and unloaded gun in terms of how I'm handling them around other people. I just try to observe the trigger finger and muzzle rules whenever I'm handling anything gun-like...including airsoft and SIRT. I was handling SIRT gun in a police officer's office some weeks ago and I was looking down the hall to check the laser's alignment with the sights and out of the corner of my eye I noticed someone approaching. Without conscious thought, my finger left the trigger and the gun came back into a SUL position. That's nice and all, but I try to think deliberately about how I'm handling a firearm, especially if it's supposed to be "unloaded" or I'm around others. I try to take a moment to remind myself that I'm handling a deadly weapon and that my attention needs to be screwed to the end of that muzzle. The autopilot stuff from training is great but I don't want to rely on my autopilot being perfect because I know it's not always perfect.



Do you have a different definition of "swept" than "pointed at"?


I consider moving the muzzle of the firearm in a fashion where the bullet would land in the personal space of another human being to be "pointed at" even if the bullet may not have actually struck them. I have that rule because looking down the muzzle I don't really see much of a difference between having said muzzle pointed at my face versus being pointed near my face. If you're room clearing as a part of a team with long guns, "at" versus "near" matters, but for most purposes I'd argue they are the same.



Do you believe that every range session needs to have a safety brief?


No. If you're with an experienced group that is very familiar with one another and with proper habits then it's not something I worry about. If I went on the range with the staff guys here I would feel no need to go through a range brief because we've been around each other long enough that we know what our rules are, what the 911 plan is in case of emergency, etc.

When not in that very limited environment, though, I do make a point of discussing safety because it's crucial that everyone is on the same page in regards to application of the major safety rules. I'll frequently have more rules (no handling guns off the firing line, etc) when I'm not in that trusted group as a means of avoiding vectors for problem.

I should also mention that the aforementioned "trust" is an objective thing. The people I'm at that level of comfort with would be one of those occasions where I'm on the range with staff (who I generally know pretty well) or SME's like Failure2Stop, SLG, ToddG, SeanM etc...individuals who I know to be exceptionally well trained and whose behavior I've observed over a number of occasions to know how they are going to behave. This is different than being around a group of friends who like guns but who don't have a similar level of training and demonstrated competence with lethal weapons. While I would certainly have any of the members of staff or our SME contingent in my home without a worry, I wouldn't necessarily trust a number of people that I would welcome in my home to be switched on when it comes time to handle firearms...if that makes sense.

Simms65
06-27-2012, 02:06 PM
Working both at a gun shop and a range I have had my fair share of guns pointed at me.

At the shop when I hand a gun to a customer if they point it at me they initially get gentle correction, because I want to give them the benefit of the doubt and I know I just cleared to the gun. If they continue I will and have taken the gun away and refused them service for being a moron.

At the range I have very little tolerance for ignorance. I have yelled at people many times. Thankfully I have never had to kick someone off my range. I've had to get pretty mean at other public ranges though. I have informed people none too politely that "You can assure me your gun is unloaded all you like, however you can be damn sure that mine is loaded." That is usually followed by "Keep your hands off it while people are down range" and/or "Do not point it at anyone."

I have accidentally swept people a few times, and each time I have been mortified. I know everyone's done it either accidentally or on purpose but it certainly does not make me feel any better.

Wendell
06-27-2012, 02:31 PM
I was in a class where I swept someone with a SIRT and was corrected. They thought the SIRT and blue guns should be treated as regular guns.

I had the same experience while demonstrating the effective (vs. ineffective) use of cover (with a Ring's Bluegun).

JSGlock34
07-01-2012, 05:35 PM
Sigh. At the range today, I was going through my drills and chatting with the pleasant fellow in the booth next to me about some of the local competitions, when a family (a father, mother their son, an older teenager) showed up to shoot a SIG P239. About two minutes later, I turned to my right to see the young man wrestling a Hogue slip-on grip onto the SIG. Unfortunately, he was jamming the muzzle of the firearm into his stomach as leverage as he was pulling the grip into place.

I was quite literally stunned watching this transpire until the gentleman in the booth next to me walked over and pointed out that this was an unsafe practice. Not sure if the family would take kindly to his unsolicited advice, I joined him in explaining that we don't point the muzzle at our own abdomen.