Someone Explain the $5Bln Uniform SNAFU to me....

[BaiHu]

http://www.thedaily.com/page/2012/06/24/062412-news-camouflage-fiasco-1-5/

[Kyle Reese]

What I never understood was the aversion to letting troops wear MC CONUS in garrison. Friend of mine here said they have to switch right back to ACU when they get back to CONUS, and wear of MC is no longer authorized.

[Shokr21]

I was a member of the first Brigade Combat Team to be issued multicam before heading to Afghanistan. All the "go-fast" guys had the pattern of course but we were the first "regular guys" to be issued the pattern.

We were initially told that when we went on leave we'd be required to change out of multicam in Kuwait and into ACU's so as not to wear the multicam's out of country. That "good idea fairy" eventually got shot down.

I still have multiple sets of multicam uniforms and some of the gear that they didn't want back. I was also re-issued my complete gear in ACU once I got home.

I think the end result is to take a look at how the Corps does things. Two patterns, keep multicam as one and develop something similar to 3 color deserts (that aren't pink when first issued) and have all body armor and related gear be coyote tan.

I don't understand how Big Army could have messed up so badly with ACU, it was obviously a good ol boy decision that failed. At least they're trying to make it right now.

[LittleLebowski]

Not Invented Here.

[Corlissimo]

From the outside, it looks like this was a key point (not to mention the political interference): “Brand identity trumped camouflage utility,”

[Al T.]

I don't really care about the foul up, I want to read the transcript of the courts-martial that sent Officers to prison. :mad:

[TGS]

I think the end result is to take a look at how the Corps does things. Two patterns, keep multicam as one and develop something similar to 3 color deserts (that aren't pink when first issued) and have all body armor and related gear be coyote tan.


This isn't what the Corps does.

1 pattern, not two. MARPAT=Marine Pattern. It comes in woodlands or deserts. Granted most guys who deploy get frog suits now, but all the uniforms are still 1 pattern: MARPAT.

I wouldn't get the idea behind having multicam, but then a desert uniform as well. Multicam works legitimately well in many environments, including wooded areas and deserts. Why have multicam and then a 3 color desert? Just use multicam for everything, it's awesome.

This part of the article got me:


It’s worth noting that, flawed as it was, the universal pattern did solve the problem of mismatched gear, said Eric Graves, editor of the military gear publication Soldier Systems Daily, adding that the pattern also gave soldiers a new-looking uniform that clearly identified the Army brand.

Eric Graves apparently thinks having woodland pouches when you're wearing desert uniforms was such a bad thing. Oh, the humanity....we'll definitely lose the war because of it, and the much better choice is obviously dressing people up in gray and white. Because hey, at least it matches itself......don't worry about it matching the environment, though.

[Shokr21]

Fair enough TGS, good points.

Brand spanking new multicams are bright green and do not mesh well with wide open desert IMHO. Once they have been worn and washed some they start to fade and then they are truly as close to universal as any other style of camo. I washed mine at least a dozen times before I even wore them, they were still fairly bright, but had begun the sought after fade.

I think the point of wearing woodland body armor with desert uni's is valid. Doing so provided an easily recognizable center mass for an aggressor to aim at.

I think multicam is as good as it can get, for now, if we are truly trying to standardize on one uniform. I do still like what the MC does, ONE pattern with different colors more suited for their intended environment

[TCinVA]

"clearly identified the Army brand"

I'm not an expert, but that being listed as a positive when discussing a piece of kit that's supposed to make it harder to kill your personnel seems to identify a big chunk of the problem: Maybe marketing dudes shouldn't be allowed in the room when you're developing gear for the field.

[ford.304]

If that's the main criteria I hear that brightly colored jackets and cross-belts work wonderfully :P

[Byron]

Hasn't branding/marketing been a pretty obvious factor for some time now? Not just the Army...

Just a few years ago, even a dude like me (who doesn't keep up with military stuff, and couldn't decipher 90% of the acronyms that get tossed around the forum) could identify any branch by their combat/working uniform. I could walk through the airport and with only a glance take mental note: "Army, Marines, Army, Navy, Air Force... etc."

Now that more and more troops seem to be getting Multicam, I no longer have that "skill." If I see a bunch of dudes in Multicam at the airport, I have no idea who they are. That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me.

[Shokr21]

Hasn't branding/marketing been a pretty obvious factor for some time now? Not just the Army...

Just a few years ago, even a dude like me (who doesn't keep up with military stuff, and couldn't decipher 90% of the acronyms that get tossed around the forum) could identify any branch by their combat/working uniform. I could walk through the airport and with only a glance take mental note: "Army, Marines, Army, Navy, Air Force... etc."

Now that more and more troops seem to be getting Multicam, I no longer have that "skill." If I see a bunch of dudes in Multicam at the airport, I have no idea who they are. That makes a hell of a lot more sense to me.

There was a time not too long ago that we all wore BDU's. The only distinguishing mark was rank and the tape that displayed military branch.

Even with multicam it's still much the same, Air Force uses brown stitching in their name tapes and doesn't have unit patches (for the most part) Army uses black stitching on their name tapes and will always have a unit patch on the left sleeve.

[LittleLebowski]

There's always haircuts, sideburns, shaving, boot blousing method, and manner of carrying one's self. Not to mention patches and rank placement.

[Byron]

I didn't mean to imply that troops could not be told apart by knowledgeable folk; simply that when every branch wants their own modern uniform, even an ignorant dolt like me can spot the difference from a mile away.

I grew up in the era Shokr21 notes, where everyone wore BDU's. As a kid, they all looked exactly the same to me. As an adult, I find it weird to be able to distinguish the different branches from any distance, without knowing the finer points of boot blousing.

That's interesting about the name tapes on Multicam. Again, something I never would have known or thought to look into.

[will_1400]

I find it telling that my ABUs (which SUCK for camo) do a better job at being camo than ACUs (based on my very limited airsoft/paintball experience). Of course the Marines got it right and I'd like to know why we can't just follow the Corps' lead as far as camo patterns/coloration go.

[TGS]

Of course the Marines got it right and I'd like to know why we can't just follow the Corps' lead as far as camo patterns/coloration go.

The USMC holds the rights to MARPAT, and has previously refused to let other services use it when requested (the US Army). If you mean, "why couldn't we just use sensible colors for camouflage instead of purple," then yeah I see your point. Same with the Navy. What's the point in having a fake camo for utilities, and still needing real camo for field purposes?

I know my brother was pretty happy about the Navy getting their camo. Compared to the old dungarees, they last much longer and also hide grease stains better. During shipyard work (dunno what the Navy calls it officially), he would have to go through several sets of dungarees in just 1 month because they would get too soiled to wear again, and apparently wear through or rip easily. Still, the point stands that they could've just authorized wearing coveralls like they do on his sub when underway, or adopt the blue BDU's already worn by the USCG. Instead, they went ahead and wastefully spent tons of money on a new camouflage pattern that's completely unnecessary and useless. Same with our airmen friends, I guess: Why? What's wrong with the current crop of coveralls and BDUs?

The MARPAT thing started specifically as a way to further distinguish the US Marines from other service branches. If I recall correctly it was because General Jones, Commandant of the USMC, was smitten with how the Republic of Korea Marines wore tiger-stripe uniforms to differentiate themselves. So, MARPAT was developed. If you look at it, MARPAT is actually a digitized tiger-stripe, a way of paying homage to the source of inspiration while putting their own modern, very effective twist on camouflage. The current methods of wearing an 8 point cover, whites-out sleeve-rolls, boots properly bloused instead of tucked in, and ironed on EGA's just wasn't enough, and I guess going to MARPAT was just going too far.

This isn't an uncommon thing in the history of military, so I can't really point a finger at the USMC and vehemently blame them for starting a kool-aid war. What's interesting to note is that the Marines have always made their uniforms to distinguish themselves from other services but not themselves......a Marine is a Marine first and recon, tracker, intel, whatever is second to being a Marine and so you don't see unit patches, berets, ect on current Marine uniforms unlike the Army which has a lot of features to distinguish between fields of specialty or units.

Jump boots have long been a part of pride for airborne units in the Army, as well as maroon berets for Airborne and black berets for the 75th Rangers. Then I guess some Army general got butt hurt that he didn't earn a cool beret, so they took the black berets away from the Rangers and made it Army standard, at which time the 75th changed to tan. Also as a matter of pride, the first US special forces were trained by the British Royal Marines. Upon passing the Commando course, they were awarded the green beret just like any other person who could pass the Royal Marines Commando course. So, there's where the whole green beret comes from (to my knowledge, someone correct me if I'm wrong). As I understand it, the old paratrooper field-only BDU was also a symbol of pride with the Airborne, just like wearing a stetson hat is a hold-over paying homage to the cavalry history of Army armor units.

MARPAT is cool and all, but in reality I think multi-cam is a much better choice for the Marines. It would align better with the mission of flexibility/world-wide readiness on short notice. When you go on a float where space is at a premium, why have your Marines pack 2 different sets of camo? Why not just 1? Seems much more sensible given the requirements of a MEU.