SRO false dot with a low sun angle

[GJM]

This weekend, my wife and I shot a two day match at our winter time local club. The match starts early, and a known issue is when the sun comes over the berm behind certain targets. My wife shoots a Romeo 3 Max, which is awesome with low sun angles. I was using an SRO.

On the second stage, as luck would have it, I encountered an in-line plate rack near the end of the stage with the sun right behind it. It was only about 12 yards, and I didn’t give it a second thought. I was firing, watching the dot lift, hearing the sound of impacts on the steel, but the plates weren’t going down. This went on for nearly a magazine, and finally I turned to the RO and asked if he was going to stop me because of a range equipment failure. He said “no, that I was hitting the splash guard low below the plate rack.” I was like WTF. At that point I reloaded and shot some targets left and right of the plate rack, including some harder targets like skunks with no issue. We went over to the plate rack and it was working properly, and there was a magazine of hits tightly clustered at the bottom of the plate rack on the splash guard.

What we figured out, was with the sun directly behind the inline plate rack, I was getting a false dot with the SRO, and shooting the wrong dot. As I mentioned, the Romeo 3 Max has no false dots. My experience with the RMR and DP Pro is you will get splatter with a low sun angle, but that makes it obvious what is going on. The SRO can suck you in because the false dot looks just like the real dot.

We had dinner with a friend who was at Nationals, and the SRO was a big enough problem there at Frostproof in the morning that numerous competitors were putting blue tape over the front SRO lens and shooting it occluded on the morning stages. My friend had taped his SRO over the first two stages at this match, although I didn’t know at the time since we were on different squads.

Obviously this ruined my match, but if you were depending on the SRO for something serious, and encountered the wrong sun angle, it could lead to a bullet striking somewhere you weren’t intending for it to go.

[MGW]

What’s the difference between the Max and other dots that eliminates this issue? Do other recent Romeo MRDS have this issue? I’m thinking specifically of the new Romeo Pro that looks very similar to a DPP.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Thanks for this.

[GJM]

The RTS2 from C-More is also good with a low sun angle and I understand it and the R3Max are made in the same plant in Japan. Not sure if it the glass or the design — there has been speculation that the curve of the SRO lens contributes.

[Tokarev]

Seen the same thing with the Aimpoint ACRO and the SIG Romeo4M.

[GJM]

Seen the same thing with the Aimpoint ACRO and the SIG Romeo4M.

I have seen it with the Acro, but the false dot is a metallic color and obviously not the primary red dot.

[frozentundra]

Can this happen with car headlights, flashlights, or other light sources at night?

[SoCalDep]

Can this happen with car headlights, flashlights, or other light sources at night?

In theory yes. If you go into a dark garage and set up a bright flashlight pointed at you then present the pistol you will likely see a false dot. This requires a BRIGHT light and the false dot is clearly (on my SRO) not the main dot, especially when moving the pistol.

I used a Fenix PD32UE at about eight feet away because it was close at hand. The modes are 9, 40, 140, 400, and 740 lumens. At the "turbo" (400lm) mode I got a faint dot that I don't consider being confused for the actual reticle when the muzzle was depressed a fairly significant amount (30 degrees maybe?). On the burst (740lm) setting I got a bigger dot but it still required a significant deviation from on target to pick it up. It also seems pretty far from the actual dot unless you have it set at an unrealistically low brightness.

I did this with an SRO and an ACRO. The results I summarized above applied to both optics, though the ACRO's phantom dot was less than the SRO. That said, they both exhibited it and they both could still (in my opinion) be used with little problem when one if familiar with what the dot is supposed to look like.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Can this happen with car headlights, flashlights, or other light sources at night?

A member here had the false dot issue, also with a SRO, during a Gunsite pistol class in October. Interestingly, it was only in the afternoon on a west facing range when the sun was still well elevated to his left-front.

I haven't had headlights, legit flashlights pointing right into my Acro or RMR so I can't opine.

[GJM]

Let’s just say it is a big enough SRO problem guys are taping over their front lens for early morning stages, and I have never heard of taping over another red dot at matches. Where it shows up is running and gunning in matches, where the positions and sun angles are changing.

[SoCalDep]

Let’s just say it is a big enough SRO problem guys are taping over their front lens for early morning stages, and I have never heard of taping over another red dot at matches. Where it shows up is running and gunning in matches, where the positions and sun angles are changing.

So why aren’t they just running other dots?

[GJM]

So why aren’t they just running other dots?

That is a complicated question.

First, a number of people have moved to the Romeo 3 Max for this reason.

However, the SRO has a number of benefits. It is extremely reliable, it is widely available, it works with BUIS, the battery lasts a long time, and because it uses the RMR footprint, it is a plug and play solution for many pistols set up for the RMR. I have never broken a SRO, and my experience has been that is unusual compared to other optics.

[SoCalDep]

That is a complicated question.

First, a number of people have moved to the Romeo 3 Max for this reason.

However, the SRO has a number of benefits. It is extremely reliable, it is widely available, it works with BUIS, the battery lasts a long time, and because it uses the RMR footprint, it is a plug and play solution for many pistols set up for the RMR. I have never broken a SRO, and my experience has been that is unusual compared to other optics.

My next question is whether the Romeo 3 Max actually solves the problem. If they have figured out a way to make reflected red wavelength light not reflect off the partially silvered dielectric dichroic coating that no other optic manufacturer has been able to do then we have a winner and a bunch of manufacturers need to catch up big time! I can see the potential with objective coatings but I’m pretty skeptical about the whole thing based on my experience with a bunch of other optics.

I may have to pick up a Romeo 3 Max to see how it compares because from a semi-scientific standpoint (I’m too dumb to be actually scientific) the presence of phantom dots has to do with optic coatings period and if they’ve solved the problem then that’s a big deal. If it’s a matter of Glocks are popular so their problems are magnified” and SROs are popular so....

[GJM]

My next question is whether the Romeo 3 Max actually solves the problem. If they have figured out a way to make reflected red wavelength light not reflect off the partially silvered dielectric dichroic coating that no other optic manufacturer has been able to do then we have a winner and a bunch of manufacturers need to catch up big time! I can see the potential with objective coatings but I’m pretty skeptical about the whole thing based on my experience with a bunch of other optics.

I may have to pick up a Romeo 3 Max to see how it compares because from a semi-scientific standpoint (I’m too dumb to be actually scientific) the presence of phantom dots has to do with optic coatings period and if they’ve solved the problem then that’s a big deal. If it’s a matter of Glocks are popular so their problems are magnified” and SROs are popular so....

The optic was developed with input by Max Michel as a full on competition sight. He reported early on, how well it worked in low sun angles, like commonly experienced at the Frostproof (FL) range. My wife and a good friend have each used a Romeo 3 Max (R3Max) for over a year now, and have never encountered a false dot. It is supposed to have a special coating, but I am not sure why it doesn’t get splatter or false dots. I just bought an RTS2 adapter from C-More (the RTS2 and R3Max share the same footprint) so I can run the R3Max on a CORE.

It has some negatives for use as a carry/duty sight, like it doesn’t take SRO height BUIS, the footprint is big, and it seems less durable than the SRO. It is an awesome USPSA optic.

[THeHumbleMarksman]

So why aren’t they just running other dots?

Because the SRO has the best features and reliability of any of the competition sized optics taping over the optic isn’t a big deal - keep a piece of tape on your holster then use if necessary - I shot 3 stages at nationals with my optic taped on my AM relay on the east bays.


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[GJM]

Because the SRO has the best features and reliability of any of the competition sized optics taping over the optic isn’t a big deal - keep a piece of tape on your holster then use if necessary - I shot 3 stages at nationals with my optic taped on my AM relay on the east bays.


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Two things. First, I have read on Enos that if you start the match with your lens taped over, you have to finish the match that way to comply with USPSA rules. Second, some people’s eyes have issues with an occluded optic. Sometimes it seems to work for me and sometimes it causes my shots to deflect left. Possibly it is because of a torn retina I suffered five years ago, which messed with my eye dominance, as in certain lighting conditions my left eye will try to take over dominance from my normal right eye. There is one eye test that I struggle with as a result. Of course taping the lens is a competition fix and not practical for duty/EDC.

[THeHumbleMarksman]

Two things. First, I have read on Enos that if you start the match with your lens taped over, you have to finish the match that way to comply with USPSA rules. Second, some people’s eyes have issues with an occluded optic. Sometimes it seems to work for me and sometimes it causes my shots to deflect left. Possibly it is because of a torn retina I suffered five years ago, which messed with my eye dominance, as in certain lighting conditions my left eye will try to take over dominance from my normal right eye. There is one eye test that I struggle with as a result. Of course taping the lens is a competition fix and not practical for duty/EDC.

That’s the first I have heard of that - it looks like 5.1.8 is what is suggesting that- I am going to email DNROI for clarification. A buddy emailed him on whether it was legal to do period but the way it was presented didn’t spark comment on a mid match change


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[GJM]

Here are some pictures I took last winter of different optics with the same sun angle.

RMR — you can see splatter.

63637



Acro:

63638



SRO:

63639




RMS Shield:

63640




C-More RTS2:

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Romeo 3 Max (reportedly made in same factory as RTS2):

63642

[Archer1440]

A member here had the false dot issue, also with a SRO, during a Gunsite pistol class in October. Interestingly, it was only in the afternoon on a west facing range when the sun was still well elevated to his left-front.

I haven't had headlights, legit flashlights pointing right into my Acro or RMR so I can't opine.

Erick’s mentioning an issue I had with the SRO during a Gunsite 499.

It isn’t an issue for me with a correct presentation, but when working as fast as possible during certain drills, it certainly was occasionally an issue. Initially, I solved this with a very brief confirmation with the BUIS/slide alignment, and as I continued to work on what Erick taught me, it became a non issue.

What I have found is that:

1. The correct presentation completely solves this issue for me. Erick spent a lot of time helping me develop a proper presentation with the dot, I have reinforced this with daily dry fire training, and it’s quite reliable for me now. I have even found that I can even get reliable hits to COM with eyes closed out to 7 yards+ after developing the presentation Erick taught me, with my grip-customized VP9 and P30 pistols- a technique which is certainly impractical, but is a good confidence builder (and a hell of a party trick).

2. Taping over the front may or may not help this specific situation with the SRO, because the reflection that creates the false dot comes from the flat emitter window, regardless of tape over the front lens. In cases where the dot is caused by the sun coming directly into the lens, as on the Frostproof targets described by GJM, tape will no doubt help (presuming correct eyesight and no strabismus.)

I also carry an RMR, which is also susceptible to this in similar conditions, but with the RMR, the false dots are not as good of a match with the real dot, so less of an issue.

[GJM]

Standing on flat ground is a different scenario than running, bending and leaning, all the while trying to have the gun up and aimed so you can fire as soon as you enter a position.

[EricM]

GJM, do you think there's any chance having backup irons (maybe with a high-vis front sight) would have helped you recognize the situation? Like you subconsciously might pick up on the fact that hey the "dot" is on target but the front sight isn't where it ought to be? [Edit: I hadn't refreshed the page to see Archer's post or your response before hitting submit, so it seems the answer may be no.]

I'm just getting into red dots on pistols so I have not yet experienced this in real life...and the sun is nowhere to be seen here today...so I grabbed a flashlight to experiment. I was easily able to create a false dot with a small flashlight on low at close range. When the light is very close to the sight, I found it interesting that you can see the details of the emitter and orange peel reflector in the red refraction (if that's the proper term). As distance increases, the image rapidly shrinks to a point that looks like a false dot. Below is a quick pic through an SRO. With a brighter flashlight, the effect was easily created across the room. The other sight I had near is a Vortex Venom, and while it also projects a false image of the light, its false image is much dimmer, not tinted red, and could never be confused with the dot. When looking at the two sights from the front and observing the reflection of something like a ceiling light, the SRO reflects that light with a deep ruby red tint, whereas the Venom reflects it as a pale pumpkin orange. Surely Trijicon was aware of the different coatings and their effects, making me think it must be about tradeoffs somewhere, but what benefit of a coating could be worth the severity of the false dot?

Another thing I noticed with the flashlight test is when moving the sight (as in getting a sight picture), the false dot moved in the opposite direction of the real dot and much less rapidly. Have others noticed this in an actual low sun angle situation? If so, perhaps another clue the brain could use to recognize a false dot.

Close range flashlight and SRO:

63650

[EricM]

Taping over the front may or may not help this specific situation with the SRO, because the reflection that creates the false dot comes from the flat emitter window, regardless of tape over the front lens.

Are we certain about this? You have a lot more red dot experience than I do but this was not what I experienced testing with a flashlight, either up close or across the room. I could completely cover up the emitter and it did not affect the false dot. Either the emitter is not the cause, or there are two separate causes of false dots to be concerned with.

[Archer1440]

Standing on flat ground is a different scenario than running, bending and leaning, all the while trying to have the gun up and aimed so you can fire as soon as you enter a position.

I am pretty sure I don’t have to tell you, you aren’t always “standing on flat ground” in a 499. Scrambler, for example. You make a good point though. And one point of difference between us- I do see value in a BUIS to help in alignment, for the real-world “shooting from inconvenient position” issues you touch upon.


Are we certain about this? You have a lot more red dot experience than I do but this was not what I experienced testing with a flashlight, either up close or across the room. I could completely cover up the emitter and it did not affect the false dot. Either the emitter is not the cause, or there are two separate causes of false dots to be concerned with.

I should clarify, the source of the dot in the issue in my class mentioned by Erick was the sun bouncing off the emitter window.

Certainly there could be other causes of false dots, depending upon the lens arrangement, coatings on the lens/lenses, interaction between lens elements and coatings, and angles between other reflecting elements (like emitter windows) and the light source. Single-layer lenses (like the inexpensive polymer lens on a Romeo Zero) might be more or less prone to certain types of false dots vs multi-layer lenses (like that on the SRO). The image you posted is related to refraction in the lens array.

This can be complicated stuff.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Care to share those tips on refining presentation/index with a dot ? Archer1440 Erick Gelhaus

I experienced the same issue (see my post about the holosun 507c in the other thread on this topic) on a gun with BUIS. I dont think checking BUIS is a solution since you don't perceive the BUIS unless your brain perceives something to be wrong with your dot. The issue with false dots is everything looks good to go, even though your aim is crooked.

[THeHumbleMarksman]

Two things. First, I have read on Enos that if you start the match with your lens taped over, you have to finish the match that way to comply with USPSA rules. Second, some people’s eyes have issues with an occluded optic. Sometimes it seems to work for me and sometimes it causes my shots to deflect left. Possibly it is because of a torn retina I suffered five years ago, which messed with my eye dominance, as in certain lighting conditions my left eye will try to take over dominance from my normal right eye. There is one eye test that I struggle with as a result. Of course taping the lens is a competition fix and not practical for duty/EDC.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201125/2e5fd56e2aa430d5f2e855fded9f3080.jpg


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[Eyesquared]

I never thought the SRO double dot would be an issue for me until it was at a Tim Herron class. I used one for maybe 8 months of weekly shooting before I ever saw a double dot, and when I did see it, in dry fire and slow-fire conditions it didn't make any difference. Where it becomes an issue is when you're shooting at a pace where the dot never really stops, because when you're shooting using a red streak for visual confirmation it is a lot harder to distinguish which red streak is real and which isn't, vs determining which dot is real. If you just try to send it anyways, it is easy to shoot misses on a static USPSA target, if you don't you turn a 0.2s split into a 0.5-1s split while you wait for the dots to stabilize and see which one is real. Tape solved the issue and thanks to the clarification from DNROI I have no issue continuing to use the SRO for USPSA.

[backtrail540]

I was hunting today and bored out of my mind. Happened to be in a prime position to see this and decided to experiment. Pretty easy to make it happen. The more acute the angle to the sun, the closer the false dot got to the center of the optic. I run the dot bright but if you didn't i could see how you could confuse them easily, especially at speed.


63846

[HCM]

GJM, do you think there's any chance having backup irons (maybe with a high-vis front sight) would have helped you recognize the situation? Like you subconsciously might pick up on the fact that hey the "dot" is on target but the front sight isn't where it ought to be? [Edit: I hadn't refreshed the page to see Archer's post or your response before hitting submit, so it seems the answer may be no.]

I'm just getting into red dots on pistols so I have not yet experienced this in real life...and the sun is nowhere to be seen here today...so I grabbed a flashlight to experiment. I was easily able to create a false dot with a small flashlight on low at close range. When the light is very close to the sight, I found it interesting that you can see the details of the emitter and orange peel reflector in the red refraction (if that's the proper term). As distance increases, the image rapidly shrinks to a point that looks like a false dot. Below is a quick pic through an SRO. With a brighter flashlight, the effect was easily created across the room. The other sight I had near is a Vortex Venom, and while it also projects a false image of the light, its false image is much dimmer, not tinted red, and could never be confused with the dot. When looking at the two sights from the front and observing the reflection of something like a ceiling light, the SRO reflects that light with a deep ruby red tint, whereas the Venom reflects it as a pale pumpkin orange. Surely Trijicon was aware of the different coatings and their effects, making me think it must be about tradeoffs somewhere, but what benefit of a coating could be worth the severity of the false dot?

Another thing I noticed with the flashlight test is when moving the sight (as in getting a sight picture), the false dot moved in the opposite direction of the real dot and much less rapidly. Have others noticed this in an actual low sun angle situation? If so, perhaps another clue the brain could use to recognize a false dot.

Close range flashlight and SRO:

63650

Using the irons in the way you describe is possible if you have true co-witness irons but it is impractical.

Like using irons to find the dot, it’s slower than simply using irons alone.

Personally, I hate true co-witness irons on pistol RDS. The optic is supposed to be your primary sighting system, IME taking up half the window to have co-witness irons (vs lower 1/3 or lower 1/4) compromises the effectiveness of the optic. At least with rear mounted BUIS.

[Archer1440]

Personally, I hate true co-witness irons on pistol RDS. The optic is supposed to be your primary sighting system, IME taking up half the window to have co-witness irons (vs lower 1/3 or lower 1/4) compromises the effectiveness of the optic. At least with rear mounted BUIS.

Any BUIS solution tall enough to actually provide a full co-witness with an SRO would have “688” stenciled on the side of the front blade...

[HCM]

Any BUIS solution tall enough to actually provide a full co-witness with an SRO would have “688” stenciled on the side of the front blade...

I guess you've never seen the Dawson MOS co-witness sights for the DPP and Cmore / Romeo 3 MAX ? C&H makes an agency sales only MOS plate for the DPP to let the optic sit lower as the required co-witness sights with a standard plate are too tall for available duty holsters.

[Archer1440]

I guess you've never seen the Dawson MOS co-witness sights for the DPP and Cmore / Romeo 3 MAX ? C&H makes an agency sales only MOS plate for the DPP to let the optic sit lower as the required co-witness sights with a standard plate are too tall for available duty holsters.

I guess perhaps we have a failure to communicate, there. My point is, it requires a silly, super-tall blade to fully co-witness (not that anyone who knows anything would want more than a lower 1/3rd-1/4 max)?

And it’s not as if the Dawson is all that low-profile, either.

[HCM]

I guess perhaps we have a failure to communicate, there. My point is, it requires a silly, super-tall blade to fully co-witness (not that anyone who knows anything would want more than a lower 1/3rd-1/4 max)?

And it’s not as if the Dawson is all that low-profile, either.

I agree with you but there are institutional users who are not full sold on RDS and require true co-witness.

[Clark Jackson]

What’s the difference between the Max and other dots that eliminates this issue? Do other recent Romeo MRDS have this issue? I’m thinking specifically of the new Romeo Pro that looks very similar to a DPP.

I have experienced false dot with both the original Romeo and the newer Romeo Pro but from low sun angle behind the shooter and not from the front or a front oblique, FWIW.

[EricM]

Using the irons in the way you describe is possible if you have true co-witness irons but it is impractical.

Like using irons to find the dot, it’s slower than simply using irons alone.

Personally, I hate true co-witness irons on pistol RDS. The optic is supposed to be your primary sighting system, IME taking up half the window to have co-witness irons (vs lower 1/3 or lower 1/4) compromises the effectiveness of the optic. At least with rear mounted BUIS.

I didn't mean to imply an absolute cowitness, I was thinking more along the lines that given a normal low-as-possible cowitness, if the dot is roughly centered in the window the front sight will appear high above the rear notch by a distance that might become familiar to an experienced shooter. Similarly, if the dot is to the left side of the window, the front sight blade is probably just leaving the notch (dependent on the specific sight configuration and sight radius), and so on and so forth. The question then being what is the likelihood of recognizing abnormal iron sight alignment in the background of your mental processing while putting the dot on target as your primary sighting system.

In case a fuzzy picture would better illustrate things, consider the sight alignment below. If I saw a false dot on the left and real dot on the right but the dots themselves looked identical, the irons would give a strong indication which is the correct dot, and then I'd have the choice of shooting to that dot or transitioning to irons (on the chance that dot too could be false). Now what if only the false dot was visible, say the real dot was off the window as it were...might an experienced shooter pick up on the misalignment of the irons subconsciously while treating the dot as the primary sighting system? Maybe it's unlikely or unrealistic at speed, I don't know, but if we're looking for every clue we could give the brain that something isn't right, could there be a potential benefit to backup irons even on a training/competition gun...both to potentially help with recognizing a false dot and to train the brain what correct orientation of irons looks like when shooting the real dot in various positions.

63896