PDA

View Full Version : What are you doing to your production/ssp guns?



sheperd80
06-24-2012, 12:13 AM
Just getting started in competition (uspsa/idpa) and I'm wondering what kind of mods and customizations people are doing to production guns.

Ive done a few very minor things to my m&p 9 fs. Added grip tape, filed inside magwell just slightly to remove burrs and enhance the bevel a little. I also plan to get an apex kit and an ameriglo probably...

What else?




Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

the_swede
06-24-2012, 04:47 AM
I think the you've done the most important thing already. On most polymer guns I've tried the frame is seriously slippery when not using grip tape. Not much else is allowed as I'm sure you know. If you like you're current sights than I would just leave it as it is and shoot a lot. Getting good hits is vital shooting Production. Also being limited to 10 rounds in USPSA reloads and stage tactics are really important.

The only other "tuning" I've seen is people switching guns to something that was specifically made for Production to begin with. E.g. CZ SP-01 Shadow with a slighlty bevelled mag well etc.

BigT
06-24-2012, 05:58 AM
I think filing that magwell would be considered a permanent frame modification and could bump you out of both.


My SSP guns have decent sights and triggers. Thats about it.

Chris Rhines
06-24-2012, 08:46 AM
I'll say here what I've said elsewhere - every modification you make to your competition pistol needs to be done with a specific purpose in mind. Tinkering with your guns 'just for fun' is a waste of time and money that could, and should, be better spent on ammo.

Also, remember that the equipment rules for USPSA Production are basically, "If it iz not mandantory, it iz forbidden!" In particular, moving any metal (or plastic) is verboten, unless it is for a purpose specifically covered in the rulebook. Here's the rulebook, Production equipment rules start at page 77. (http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf)

But anyway, you asked what I do to my Production/SSP guns. So here's my list:
1.) Take one recent-production Gen4 Glock 34.
2.) Install a Lone Wolf 3.5# connector. ($15)
3.) Install a Wolff extra power trigger spring. ($3)
4.) Install a Glock Gen4 extended 'FBI' magazine release. ($4)
5.) Snap in a Glockmeister Grip Plug. ($7)
6.) Install a set of Warren Tactical sights, plain rear and fiber-optic front. As an aside, I've had the best luck with the 0.245" front sights on the long-slide Glocks. ($77)

That's it. Go shoot! :D

There are some things I'm going to be experimenting with in the near future - namely, I want to try an internal overtravel stop of some kind, to see if it helps with my long-range accuracy. I'm also thinking about having a Bar-Sto barrel fitted, same reason.

-C

sheperd80
06-24-2012, 12:38 PM
I think filing that magwell would be considered a permanent frame modification and could bump you out of both.


My SSP guns have decent sights and triggers. Thats about it.

Uspsa allows 1/4 inch gap front and back, and i didnt even get close to that. I mainly just smoothed out the rough edges and burrs created by me slamming mags in over and over, and increased the bevel by a hair.

Idpa is pretty strict about it but its almost not noticeable and at my club they dont even look so i think im ok.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

BigT
06-24-2012, 12:47 PM
Uspsa allows 1/4 inch gap front and back, and i didnt even get close to that. I mainly just smoothed out the rough edges and burrs created by me slamming mags in over and over, and increased the bevel by a hair.

Idpa is pretty strict about it but its almost not noticeable and at my club they dont even look so i think im ok.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

Our guys shoot IPSC here as opposes to USPSA so sorry using their rules.

With regards to SSP rules while I think some are stupid I am a stickler for keeping to them if youre going to play the game.

ToddG
06-24-2012, 12:58 PM
Idpa is pretty strict about it but its almost not noticeable and at my club they dont even look so i think im ok.

Or alternatively you could just shoot in ESP and not cheat...

sheperd80
06-24-2012, 01:05 PM
Im not trying to cheat. I respect the rules and limitations of both sports. If u saw the amount of work i did on it you wouldnt think its cheating. Again, i basically just removed burrs caused by lots of mags getting rammed into it, and smoothed out the opening. I took off maybe 1/32" of material... probably less.

The edge was all chewed up looking so i just made it smooth again. Ill show it to my RO if it makes u feel better. He'll laugh and go back to what he was doing no doubt.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

sheperd80
06-24-2012, 01:17 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/6c4e365f-5963-2084.jpg

Looking at it again, i didnt even remove anything really. Its back to the original profile minus the burrs and just looks scratchy because of the file i used

Not sure why pic isnt showing up.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

theblacknight
06-25-2012, 06:38 PM
You have a pro ? I filed the ledge on the rear between the grip tool and magwell on both my guns.After soo many hundred reloads, its hard to tell anything was done anyway.


Sevigny fibers
Apex
Polish feed area
grip tape and stippling.

cdunn
06-25-2012, 07:32 PM
I could be wrong but the apex trigger would be cheating?

Chris Rhines
06-25-2012, 08:33 PM
I could be wrong but the apex trigger would be cheating? The AEK trigger would be illegal in Production/SSP, because it's externally visible. The Apex DCAEK is good to go in Production, and I'm pretty sure it's okay in IDPA SSP as well. Oddly enough, the Apex Failure-Resistant Extractor is okay in USPSA Production, because it's specifically mentioned in the rulebook.

-C

tremiles
06-25-2012, 08:45 PM
I'm under the impression that the FSS isn't legal in SSP because of the change in the trigger, but the comp AEK may be legal because it's internal and isn't a frame mod. I haven't read up enough to see if there's a minimum weight though for SSP which may disqualify the comp AEK. I have the DCAEK, but shoot ESP because I stippled the front strap.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2

ToddG
06-25-2012, 09:50 PM
Dear IDPA,

Please merge ESP and SSP. Thank you.

BigT
06-26-2012, 03:44 AM
I'm under the impression that the FSS isn't legal in SSP because of the change in the trigger, but the comp AEK may be legal because it's internal and isn't a frame mod. I haven't read up enough to see if there's a minimum weight though for SSP which may disqualify the comp AEK. I have the DCAEK, but shoot ESP because I stippled the front strap.

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2

There isnt a minimum trigger pull weight in SSP. As long as all safeties are in place obviously.

Stuffbreaker
06-26-2012, 08:43 AM
My SSP gun is a two-week-old 5" M&P Pro that helped me get a match bump to EX last weekend.

Grip tape around grip and underside of trigger guard. An awesome mod that proved to be a liability when switching to WHO mid-stage. Couldn't get my hand to move where it needed to be.

Apex sear, RAM, USB & striker spring. Factory TRS and sear spring. Breaks at 3.8 lbs. Still managed to slap it under stress.

13lb recoil spring and non-captive guide rod. Mine wouldn't cycle my 147g loads running 130 PF with the factory recoil assembly. The slide stop was virtually impossible to operate by thumb with the stiff factory recoil spring, but got much easier with the lighter spring installed.

Will be getting a KKM barrel, soon. Accuracy with factory barrel is OK, but not stellar. Coming from a P30L, I was really dissappointed in how my M&P Pro groups at distance. I recently hit an 18" plate at 175 yds with the HK, but would struggle to do that at half the distance with the M&P. My ammo runs roughly 30-40 fps slower through the M&P than the P30l.

Factory sights are OK for now, but will probably try something with a smaller diameter fiber optic.

Ray Keith
06-26-2012, 09:45 AM
deleted

gringop
06-26-2012, 10:08 AM
It's all there in Black and White ( and red). It doesn't matter what the local SO does or does not do. It does matter that you have the integrity to not cheat when the difference in shooting SSP vs. ESP is just a matter of circling the right spot on the score sheet.

Gringop

Stock Service Pistol Division (SSP)
PERMITTED Modifications (Inclusive list):
1. Sights may be changed to another conventional notch and
post type (see “sights” in glossary for further information).
2. Grips may be changed to another style or material that is
similar to factory configuration (no weighted grips; see
“weighted grips” in glossary for further details).
3. A slip-on grip sock and/or skateboard tape may be used.
4. Internal action work may be used to enhance trigger pull as
long as safety is maintained (no visible external modifications
allowed).
5. Reliability work may be done to enhance feeding and
ejection.
6. Internal accuracy may be worked to include replacement of
barrel with one of factory configuration and original caliber.
7. Plastic plugs may be used to fill the opening behind the
magazine well.
8. Custom finishes may be applied.
NOTE: The slide releases and magazine releases that are standard
on the Glock 34 and 35 models are available as a factory option on
all Glocks available in the USA. Because of this, that type of slide
release and magazine release are legal on all Glocks for SSP.
EXCLUDED Modifications (NON-Inclusive list):
1. Externally visible modifications other than grips or sights.
2. Robar style grip reduction.
3. Add-on magazine well opening.
4. Guide rods made of a material different from the factory part
it replaces.
5. Seattle Slug Grip Plug and similar weighted products.
6. A barrel of another caliber that is not offered in the original
factory model.
7. Slide lightening (see “slide, lightening” in glossary for
further information).
8. Checkering and stippling.

Chris Rhines
06-26-2012, 10:37 AM
I don't think that it is necessary (or accurate) to throw the 'cheater' accusation around. I don't care how black-and-white you think the rules are - there's ALWAYS room for some interpretation...

For instance, the IDPA SSP rules are silent on beveling the magwell. External add-on magwells are prohibited, and beveling the magwell is not listed as an allowable modification. However, internal modifications to improve reliability are specifically permitted. Does the beveling displayed count as internal or external? Particularly since it was done to remove burrs that can hang up the magazine and not for any competitive advantage? I think that it could be argued either way.

It really does come down to the professional opinion of the SO or the match director.

-C

ToddG
06-26-2012, 10:53 AM
Beveling the mag well was specifically forbidden at some point as I recall. It was either in the Tac Journal, one of the HQ posts, or a ruling at Nationals. I could be wrong but that is what I recall.

Stuffbreaker
06-26-2012, 10:55 AM
4. Guide rods made of a material different from the factory part
it replaces.


The non-captive guide rod in my M&P is steel, the same material as the factory guide rod. My IDPA lawyering kit includes printouts from reputable sources where this mod was deemed legal for SSP. One of the prominent IDPA Masters who has blessed this mod on multiple forums was a CSO at the match I just ran.

ToddG
06-26-2012, 10:59 AM
Agreed, the non-captured rods have always been legal for Glocks.

sheperd80
06-26-2012, 11:54 PM
Well if it was truly banned then so be it. But i still tend to think no one would bat an eye at what i did. I have no interest in cheating just want my gun to work with me as a well oiled machine with as few snags and hiccups as possible.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

ToddG
06-27-2012, 12:05 AM
SSP

PERMITTED Modifications (Inclusive list):
1. Sights may be changed to another conventional notch and post type (see “sights” in glossary for further information).
2. Grips may be changed to another style or material that is similar to factory configuration (no weighted grips; see “weighted grips” in glossary for further details).
3. A slip-on grip sock and/or skateboard tape may be used.
4. Internal action work may be used to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained (no visible external modifications allowed).
5. Reliability work may be done to enhance feeding and ejection.
6. Internal accuracy may be worked to include replacement of barrel with one of factory configuration and original caliber.
7. Plastic plugs may be used to fill the opening behind the magazine well.
8. Custom finishes may be applied.

ESP

PERMITTED Modifications (Inclusive list): 1. Sights to another notch and post type (see “sights” in
glossary for further information).
2. Grips (no weighted grips; see “weighted grips” in glossary for further details).
3. Enhanced Service Pistol Division (ESP)
21
3. Internal accuracy work (includes: replacement of the barrel with one of factory configuration, the use of Accu-Rails, the use of Briley Bushings).
4. Internal reliability work.
5. Checker frontstrap and backstrap.
6. Checker or square and checker trigger guard.
7. Cosmetic checkering/serrating.
8. Extended thumb (may be ambidextrous) and Beavertail grip safeties.
9. Extended magazine release (button may not be oversize in diameter or protrude more than .2” out from the frame).
10. Factory installed cone style barrels on pistols with a barrel length of 4.2” or less.
11. Full length guide rod manufactured of material that is no heavier than common steel.
12. Hammer and other trigger action parts to enhance trigger pull (includes the use of over travel stop).
13. Beveled magazine well and add-on well extensions.
14. Custom finishes.

The fact that it's specifically listed under ESP and not SSP is dispositive. Beveling the mag well is not legal in SSP.

I've got no opinion on whether what the OP did to his mag well would constitute beveling under the rules, but I wouldn't use "no one can tell" as part of my justification...

jetfire
06-27-2012, 11:18 AM
This is why I ditched my SSP guns and went back to revolver. Less complicated.

Shokr21
06-27-2012, 11:25 AM
I shoot a gen4 g17 in production.

My mods are ameriglo defoor sights and a glockmeister grip plug.

It does just fine for me.

sheperd80
06-27-2012, 07:55 PM
I've got no opinion on whether what the OP did to his mag well would constitute beveling under the rules, but I wouldn't use "no one can tell" as part of my justification...

Fair enough. Didnt mean it like im trying to sneak by with unnoticed modifications.

But its kind of ridiculous to just start shouting "cheater" over something so minor but i guess ( edited for tact--> ) internet people will be internet people....lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

ToddG
06-27-2012, 08:32 PM
But its kind of ridiculous to just start shouting "cheater" over something so minor but i guess ( edited for tact--> ) internet people will be internet people....lol

I went by your initial post, which specifically said you'd intended to "enhance the bevel" of your magwell. When it was pointed out that doing so was against the rules for SSP, your response was that the work was "almost not noticeable" and that at your club "they dont even look." You didn't say you thought you were within the rules, you said you thought it wouldn't get caught.

It was only later that you clarified and, most importantly, dropped the "enhance the bevel" claim.

GJM
06-27-2012, 09:21 PM
I'll say here what I've said elsewhere - every modification you make to your competition pistol needs to be done with a specific purpose in mind. Tinkering with your guns 'just for fun' is a waste of time and money that could, and should, be better spent on ammo.

Also, remember that the equipment rules for USPSA Production are basically, "If it iz not mandantory, it iz forbidden!" In particular, moving any metal (or plastic) is verboten, unless it is for a purpose specifically covered in the rulebook. Here's the rulebook, Production equipment rules start at page 77. (http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf)

But anyway, you asked what I do to my Production/SSP guns. So here's my list:
1.) Take one recent-production Gen4 Glock 34.
2.) Install a Lone Wolf 3.5# connector. ($15)
3.) Install a Wolff extra power trigger spring. ($3)
4.) Install a Glock Gen4 extended 'FBI' magazine release. ($4)
5.) Snap in a Glockmeister Grip Plug. ($7)
6.) Install a set of Warren Tactical sights, plain rear and fiber-optic front. As an aside, I've had the best luck with the 0.245" front sights on the long-slide Glocks. ($77)

That's it. Go shoot! :D

There are some things I'm going to be experimenting with in the near future - namely, I want to try an internal overtravel stop of some kind, to see if it helps with my long-range accuracy. I'm also thinking about having a Bar-Sto barrel fitted, same reason.

-C

Two questions:

1) A few months back, Jeff Wilson from Glocktriggers.com told me that he would never use a non-Glock connector in a serious pistol. I reported that here, and not a week or two later, Todd broke his LW connector. I pulled them out of all my Glock pistols and replaced them with a factory - connector. Why are you running the LW connector instead of a factory -?

2) You mention improving accuracy, but also that you run a fiber optic front sight. In my testing, shooting the one inch square at 7 yards, and the 3x5 at 25 yards, my groups with a fiber optic front sight are about double what I shoot with a Trijicon HD set-up or a Heinie .235 serrated/tritium, painted orange, combined with a Warren tactical rear?

sheperd80
06-27-2012, 09:56 PM
I went by your initial post, which specifically said you'd intended to "enhance the bevel" of your magwell. When it was pointed out that doing so was against the rules for SSP, your response was that the work was "almost not noticeable" and that at your club "they dont even look." You didn't say you thought you were within the rules, you said you thought it wouldn't get caught.

It was only later that you clarified and, most importantly, dropped the "enhance the bevel" claim.

Well yeah i dropped the claim as it became apparent it was an overstatement of what was done, and was taken more seriously than i expected. Thats why i.posted the pic.

But anyway, i think were understanding each other at this point. I dont like cheaters anymore than the next guy. I just want to shoot and have fun while gaining some experience shooting under pressure.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

Chris Rhines
06-28-2012, 10:35 AM
Two questions:

1) A few months back, Jeff Wilson from Glocktriggers.com told me that he would never use a non-Glock connector in a serious pistol. I reported that here, and not a week or two later, Todd broke his LW connector. I pulled them out of all my Glock pistols and replaced them with a factory - connector. Why are you running the LW connector instead of a factory -?

2) You mention improving accuracy, but also that you run a fiber optic front sight. In my testing, shooting the one inch square at 7 yards, and the 3x5 at 25 yards, my groups with a fiber optic front sight are about double what I shoot with a Trijicon HD set-up or a Heinie .235 serrated/tritium, painted orange, combined with a Warren tactical rear?
Two very good questions.

1.) It's quite subjective, but I think that the LW 3.5# connector provides a superior feel to the Glock OEM '-' connector. Less of a wall, more of a rolling break. Considering the high round count on Todd's connector before it failed, I'm not too worried about it breaking on me. I may replace it at the end of the year, just to be safe.

2.) I bounce back and forth on fiber vs. plain front sights. I also shoot smaller groups with a plain black sight (not half the size, more like an inch at 25 yards) but I prefer the fiber front sight for shooting indoors (where I do the bulk of my training.) I really don't like colored or painted front sights - they're a little bit faster to pick up, but they spoil the contrast between the front sight and the target. I find that painted sights force me to soft-focus on the target, just so I can see what portion I'm aiming at.

When Glock 34 #2 arrives, I might put a Tritium front sight on it for indoor shooting, and switch to a 0.115"x0.235" plain black front on my outdoor gun. We'll see.

-C

fuse
06-28-2012, 11:47 AM
I dont like cheaters anymore than the next guy. I just want to shoot and have fun while gaining some experience shooting under pressure.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

So shoot ESP.

sheperd80
06-28-2012, 02:15 PM
So shoot ESP.

Why on earth would i do that?...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

fuse
06-28-2012, 03:36 PM
Because your gun is not legal in SSP and you
just want to shoot and have fun while gaining some experience shooting under pressure.

Sal Picante
06-29-2012, 11:19 AM
SSP, ESP, Production... It doesn't matter.

I still shot the *wrong* gun, a Glock 22 in .40, in both divisions and USPSA production.

Only thing I change is my sights.

Now for shooting Bianchi, or PPC, some trigger work is beneficial...

Sal Picante
06-29-2012, 11:24 AM
Dear IDPA,

Please merge ESP and SSP. Thank you.

Ain't that the truth!

ToddG
06-29-2012, 12:27 PM
Ain't that the truth!

Those of us who were around when the draft IDPA rules were first passed around know ESP was intended to save stock gunners from the predations of gamers. Reality has shown us that's not necessary. All SSP does is create a division where people find themselves "cheating" for inadvertent minor crap.

GOP
06-29-2012, 12:51 PM
While I certainly don't compete much and just started competing recently (I'll have shot 2 majors and 8-12 local matches by years end), I don't really get the difference in ESP and SSP. My bone stock PPQ ended up being classified as ESP, but guys with much better sights (etc) were able to shoot SSP. If you look at the division times at a major match, they are almost identical. I really wish IDPA was organized more like USPSA Production instead.

Heck, in my limited experience, IDPA is the most inconsistent sporting organization regarding rules I have ever seen. It really is a major turn-off to me, but it is all I have available locally. Not only are the rules extremely confusing at times, so much is left up to the RO/SO. Whether it be specifics about guns, cover garments, procedural errors, etc. I recently heard about a very locked on friend of mine who is in SOF (an extremely skilled shooter who knows a ton about tactics) pick up procedurals related to tactics from a 325lb truck driver. I understand the rules have to be in place, I just wish they were more consistent. Maybe the tiger teams will fix that. End rant.

Shawn.L
06-29-2012, 12:56 PM
Grip tape. Sights. Thats it.
I wish they had made a RTF2 G34.

ToddG
06-29-2012, 01:28 PM
Not only are the rules extremely confusing at times, so much is left up to the RO/SO. Whether it be specifics about guns, cover garments, procedural errors, etc.

That's certainly not limited to IDPA, though. Head over to Enos and you'll find plenty of people disagreeing about USPSA rules and their interpretation, too. Heck, I almost got DQd from the very first match (USPSA) I ever shot back in the mid-90s because the RO insisted that my G27 in an IWB holster under a sweatshirt was "inherently unsafe." In fact, he thought any concealed gun was "unsafe" and illegal in USPSA. I had to get the MD involved.

Having said that, there is no question that IDPA has far more subjectivity than USPSA when it comes to rules. When it formed, the guys running IDPA thought it would top out at around 2,000 members... very like-minded members. Then it took off because it was far more achievable for newer shooters or less competition-oriented shooters than USPSA at the time (remember, this is well before Production existed in USPSA). But the rulebook has been slow to catch up and a lot of it still relies on the idea that those "very like-minded members" will be designing the stages, making the calls, etc.

Just as importantly, the "old guard" of IDPA remains very intrenched in the sport's original mission which was defense-oriented. I cannot tell you how many major matches I've attended where stage design was literally unfair (like flip a coin and if you're lucky you shoot one target, if you're unlucky you have to shoot five). "Life aint fair and neither are gunfights!" is a mantra that a lot of folks follow. And in my experience the vast majority of IDPA competitors are fine with that... because they're less about competition and more about practice, camaraderie, etc. Does it drive me nuts? Yes. But there are an awful lot of very satisfied IDPA members.


I recently heard about a very locked on friend of mine who is in SOF (an extremely skilled shooter who knows a ton about tactics) pick up procedurals related to tactics from a 325lb truck driver.

Without knowing what those procedurals were, it's hard to judge. But I've been given both PEs and even FTDRs for doing things what I considered "the right way" on a stage. That's your choice when you go to an IDPA match: do it their way and get the best possible score, or do it your way and don't get riled about your score. For example, tactical sequence is one of the dumbest and most unrealistic things on Earth. But it's part of the game. You can either look at a sequence stage as a shooting problem and shoot it as prescribed, or you can look at it as a "fight" and shoot it the way you want without concern for your score. But I can't say "I'm real, man, and I don't care about the score!" while simultaneously arguing that they should change the rules so my score is better.

PPGMD
06-29-2012, 02:05 PM
Getting back to the equipment, and ignoring the IDPA stupid rules (which I agree are stupid).

My USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge gun:
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 Pro Series 5"
Apex D/C AEK
Apex RAM
Apex Competition Striker Spring
Warren Tactical Fiber Optic Sights
Stippiled Rear Back Strap
Much dry firing

I will probably buy a second one and send them one at a time to Apex for barrel work. But I've honestly haven't been held back in normal action shooting sports with this gun. I mostly want a barrel that can handle 147gr minor loads better then the stock one (using 115gr ammo right now).

My current NRA Action Pistol Gun:
Springfield Armory XD-M 9 5.25"
Powder River Precsision Ultimate Match Kit
Reduced Power Striker Spring
Reduced Power Striker Safety Spring
Removed disassembler spring

I am not sure the vintage of the two striker springs, TGO put them in my gun (Thanks Rob)

My future NRA Action Pistol Guns:
Two Smith & Wesson M&P 9 Pro Series 5"
Sent to Apex with the following instructions, make it rock at 50 yards.
I will play with the triggers when they get back.

John Hearne
06-29-2012, 04:47 PM
I'm trying to put the money together for a P226 Enhanced Elite. I'm committed to the Sig platform and want something in 9mm. The only things I'm planning are putting a Dawson .125 front sight on it and dry firing it until it's smoothed out.

joshs
06-29-2012, 05:19 PM
I primarily shoot USPSA Production. My P30s (LEM) both have P2K heavy trigger springs, lighter FPB springs, 12lb mainsprings, and Heinie sights. I used to paint the mag well, but the USPSA BoD decided that paint on the mag well is illegal "refinishing."

GJM
06-29-2012, 05:49 PM
I'm trying to put the money together for a P226 Enhanced Elite. I'm committed to the Sig platform and want something in 9mm. The only things I'm planning are putting a Dawson .125 front sight on it and dry firing it until it's smoothed out.

John, why the Enhanced over the regular 226 E2 SRT -- do you prefer the beavertail?

I wanted a TDA, and a month or two ago, bought a new 226R E2 with SRT and tritium sights for $670 thru a Gun Broker auction from Osage County Guns. I was pleasantly surprised by the DA and SA trigger pulls.

Wes Peart
06-29-2012, 06:02 PM
While I certainly don't compete much and just started competing recently (I'll have shot 2 majors and 8-12 local matches by years end), I don't really get the difference in ESP and SSP. My bone stock PPQ ended up being classified as ESP, but guys with much better sights (etc) were able to shoot SSP. If you look at the division times at a major match, they are almost identical. I really wish IDPA was organized more like USPSA Production instead.

Heck, in my limited experience, IDPA is the most inconsistent sporting organization regarding rules I have ever seen. It really is a major turn-off to me, but it is all I have available locally. Not only are the rules extremely confusing at times, so much is left up to the RO/SO. Whether it be specifics about guns, cover garments, procedural errors, etc. I recently heard about a very locked on friend of mine who is in SOF (an extremely skilled shooter who knows a ton about tactics) pick up procedurals related to tactics from a 325lb truck driver. I understand the rules have to be in place, I just wish they were more consistent. Maybe the tiger teams will fix that. End rant.

How is that even possible?

joshs
06-29-2012, 06:14 PM
How is that even possible?

I'm not 100% on why the PPQ was put in ESP, but usually SFA guns are put in ESP when they are fully cocked before the trigger is pressed. SSP requires that the trigger at least partially cocks the gun.

John Hearne
06-29-2012, 07:25 PM
John, why the Enhanced over the regular 226 E2 SRT -- do you prefer the beavertail?

I wanted a TDA, and a month or two ago, bought a new 226R E2 with SRT and tritium sights for $670 thru a Gun Broker auction from Osage County Guns. I was pleasantly surprised by the DA and SA trigger pulls.

Wow, that's a good price, better than Sig's direct to LEO's price.

Regarding the beavertail, I do like it. I don't think it helps with recoil or hammer bite but it makes a dandy and stop. Especially in an open carry holster, like a duty rig, it makes it very easy to drive your hand on to gun in a proper grip.

rob_s
06-30-2012, 07:34 AM
As someone who shoots both IDPA and USPSA I get really tired of all the bellyaching about the rules. And it's usually from folks that "just want to have fun" or "just want the practice". If that's the case why do you care about the rules, or the scores, at all? Walk with the scorekeeper and look for your hits and be done.

I once ran a USPSA shooter at his first IDPA match. He had no cover garment and informed me that he was just there for practice. I told him that I was going to give him a FTDR then for every stage so that he didn't skew the results for those that did care. He tells me no problem. At the time we were scoring live so he takes his scoresheet back to the computer and the stats guy tells him "hey, you got an FTDR" guy says "no problem, not here for score". Repeat this for the next stage and they tell him it's 20 seconds or whatever and he goes ballistic. Demands his money back and leaves in a huff. Wait, I thought you were just there for practice and didn't care about your score?

A lot of these rules debates remind me of that. Props to Todd at least for starting his own game where the rules are to his liking. The rest just seems like whining, and the motives for that whining seems kind of blurry. What it usually seems to come down to is "I want the rules changed so that my particular way of doing things will be more competitive". Next thing you know the Israelis will take over and insist that everyone start with an empty chamber.

If you want to shoot your gun with your mods and do it for practice then shoot in whatever division they tell you you're supposed to be in and move on. I shot a mostly stock Glock 19 in Limited for quite a while because I wanted to load my mags up. I wasn't competitive (although I was never last, either, which was funny) but that was ok because I wasn't there for the score and was only there for the practice.

Wes Peart
06-30-2012, 07:43 AM
I'm not 100% on why the PPQ was put in ESP, but usually SFA guns are put in ESP when they are fully cocked before the trigger is pressed. SSP requires that the trigger at least partially cocks the gun.

So you can shoot a DA/SA CZ75/Sig/Beretta where your first shot is double action and the following however many rounds of the stage are single action, but if your gun starts in single action that's not OK. That sounds about like the kind of rules I expect from IDPA :p

PPGMD
06-30-2012, 09:00 AM
I agree with the shooter, a FTDR per a stage is way too hefty. If you don't want people without cover garments shooting, just don't let them. Otherwise use a better fine, like a procedural per a stage (which is more inline with what little advantage he would have without those stupid vests).

FTDR are for the following:

PC 1. Failure To Do Right (FTDR):
A. Adds twenty (20) seconds to total score.
B. Is assessed for any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques.
C. Is assessed for unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions, or the use of illegal equipment, which, in the opinion of the MD, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting sport. This will result in an FTDR or DQ from the entire match at the discretion of the MD. Repeated offenses reported to the AC or HQ can result in having membership revoked.
D. Examples: (Non-inclusive list)
1. Firing extra rounds so that you may reload at a more convenient time.
2. Purposely committing a procedural error because your score will be better even with the penalty
3. Not reloading to fire one more round because your score will be better even with the miss.

Is him being there for practice, and not using a vest a travesty to IDPA? In fact I would say your actions were the travesty. Instead of perhaps turning him into a convert (at least shooting both sports), you widened the gulf between USPSA and IDPA for that shooter and any other USPSA shooters that he talks to.

When I run new USPSA shooters, if it's outright gamer gear we will put a notation that they are outlaw class. If it is fairly normal gear, but isn't allowed in the rules, then we let them shoot, but tell them in the future they will need to make some gear changes. In the end at worst we give them a procedural or two, but a FTDR more likely results in what you saw. It also cheapens the purpose of the FTDR (which I think should be removed from the rules), which is to punish people that purposely and willfully bypass the rules of the sport for a competitive advantage.

rob_s
06-30-2012, 09:26 AM
I agree with the shooter, a FTDR per a stage is way too hefty. If you don't want people without cover garments shooting, just don't let them. Otherwise use a better fine, like a procedural per a stage (which is more inline with what little advantage he would have without those stupid vests).

FTDR are for the following:


Is him being there for practice, and not using a vest a travesty to IDPA? In fact I would say your actions were the travesty. Instead of perhaps turning him into a convert (at least shooting both sports), you widened the gulf between USPSA and IDPA for that shooter and any other USPSA shooters that he talks to.

When I run new USPSA shooters, if it's outright gamer gear we will put a notation that they are outlaw class. If it is fairly normal gear, but isn't allowed in the rules, then we let them shoot, but tell them in the future they will need to make some gear changes. In the end at worst we give them a procedural or two, but a FTDR more likely results in what you saw. It also cheapens the purpose of the FTDR (which I think should be removed from the rules), which is to punish people that purposely and willfully bypass the rules of the sport for a competitive advantage.

He said he was there for practice and didn't care about the score, then threw a temper tantrum when he was told of the impact to his score. Which is it?

The point of the story wasnt to continue this pointless argument about the rules (is anyone here on the rules committe for either game? Why not? It matters so much to you that you'll pitch a bitch on the Internet but not get involved in making the changes everyone thinks are so critical?) but to point out that, relative to the topic and the OP, people are rarely honest when they start talking about scores and rules, equipment or otherwise, and their motivations for meeting, or flaunting, them.

PPGMD
06-30-2012, 10:18 AM
He said he was there for practice and didn't care about the score, then threw a temper tantrum when he was told of the impact to his score. Which is it?

Temper tantrum eh? He may not have cared about his exact score (I know I don't when I shoot IDPA), but he still likely wanted to know about where he stands. Without a frame of reference scores on their own are useless. By giving him a 20 second penalty you removed that ability. And add to that fact you prove what many USPSA shooters say about IDPA, that the rules, and penalties are very subjective to the person running your stage. IMO you very much improperly used the FTDR, and perhaps you should learn from his reaction, the FTDR should only be given to people that you can outright call a cheater.


The point of the story wasnt to continue this pointless argument about the rules (is anyone here on the rules committe for either game? Why not? It matters so much to you that you'll pitch a bitch on the Internet but not get involved in making the changes everyone thinks are so critical?) but to point out that, relative to the topic and the OP, people are rarely honest when they start talking about scores and rules, equipment or otherwise, and their motivations for meeting, or flaunting, them.

Out of the sports I shoot I personally do little moaning about USPSA rules because I can change them, as I vote for the various leadership positions in the sport. NRA Action Pistol doesn't have an election process (except through the NRA Board), but the leaders are quite approachable and listen to suggestions (and have implemented a number of them). But other then bitching on the internet either on a public message board, or via more private means, with IDPA there is little we can do about the rules. There are no elections, we have no direct say in the direction of the sport.

ToddG
06-30-2012, 10:46 AM
I'm with Rob on this, too. Shooting a concealment stage without concealment is by definition flaunting the rules. Instead of being concerned about the guy who didn't want to play by the rules, I'd be thinking of all the other competitors who do play by the rules. Is it fair for even a single one of them to lose to someone who doesn't play by the rules?

There is no "outlaw" division in IDPA and the sport specifically says there should be none. Rob did what he could within the rules.
We've had people show up to KSTG matches whining about some rule or other, too. Tough. Don't like it? Play another game. You think you could tackle the pitcher at the local softball game and say "not my fault, I wish this was a football league instead" without getting kicked out?

Game. Rules. Period.

PPGMD
06-30-2012, 11:20 AM
I'm with Rob on this, too. Shooting a concealment stage without concealment is by definition flaunting the rules. Instead of being concerned about the guy who didn't want to play by the rules, I'd be thinking of all the other competitors who do play by the rules. Is it fair for even a single one of them to lose to someone who doesn't play by the rules?

At club level matches, if you lose to someone that uses different equipment you lose nothing, you gain nothing. Honestly I never know why people get worked up over a precise score at a club level match. At a higher level matches where prizes, and trophies are on the line, ok I can understand it. But beyond that live and let live, in some areas you might be the only accessible match.


There is no "outlaw" division in IDPA and the sport specifically says there should be none. Rob did what he could within the rules.
We've had people show up to KSTG matches whining about some rule or other, too. Tough. Don't like it? Play another game. You think you could tackle the pitcher at the local softball game and say "not my fault, I wish this was a football league instead" without getting kicked out?

Really did he do what he could within the rules? Read the rules for a FTDR I quoted above, IMO he doesn't support that. A traditional procedural would.

You can't really use a football vs softball comparison. With exception of open division the equipment differences are pretty minor, and the shooting differences are also pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. Now I don't disagree that you shouldn't try to get him into the game as it was meant to be played, simply that there are better ways to do it. On a persons first match you give them a ton more leeway, and try to mold him into it, not give him 20 second penalties and drive him away from the sport.

With your KSTG, we know where you stand, it's a local outlaw match, and you make the rules. If someone walks away unhappy you don't care because you don't really carry about expanding the sport. OTOH IDPA is a much larger organization, Rob's actions reflect on the entire sport, the bad blood that Rob generated (either rightly or wrongly) will not help bridge the gulf between the shooters of each sport.

sheperd80
06-30-2012, 12:33 PM
I will probably buy a second one and send them one at a time to Apex for barrel work. But I've honestly haven't been held back in normal action shooting sports with this gun. I mostly want a barrel that can handle 147gr minor loads better then the stock one (using 115gr ammo right now).



Whats the problem with 147gr loads in the stock barrel? Personally ive only ever shot 115 and 124 due to cost.

ToddG
06-30-2012, 01:33 PM
At club level matches, if you lose to someone that uses different equipment you lose nothing, you gain nothing. Honestly I never know why people get worked up over a precise score at a club level match.

Because some people expect a game, especially one organized on a national level, to be fair regardless of whether big prizes are at stake.


But beyond that live and let live, in some areas you might be the only accessible match.

If it's the only accessible match to me, I don't want the results to be based on what buddies do for each other, I want it to be based on the rules.


Really did he do what he could within the rules? Read the rules for a FTDR I quoted above, IMO he doesn't support that. A traditional procedural would.

"B. Is assessed for any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques."

I'd certainly say I don't wanna use a concealment garment because I'm just practicing for USPSA would count.


You can't really use a football vs softball comparison. With exception of open division the equipment differences are pretty minor, and the shooting differences are also pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.

It wasn't minor enough for the guy to shoot from concealment as required, was it? I'd say the concealment garment difference is quite important and separates the two sports pretty significantly. If the only difference between two sports was that one allowed cleats and one didn't, if you showed up to the one that disallowed cleats and wore cleats, guess what? You're cheating. Period.


Now I don't disagree that you shouldn't try to get him into the game as it was meant to be played, simply that there are better ways to do it. On a persons first match you give them a ton more leeway, and try to mold him into it, not give him 20 second penalties and drive him away from the sport.

Again, you're focused solely on the violator and not the other dozen, score, or maybe hundred of people shooting the match. They showed up expecting a fair playing field... not someone getting special exemptions.


With your KSTG, we know where you stand, it's a local outlaw match, and you make the rules. If someone walks away unhappy you don't care because you don't really carry about expanding the sport. OTOH IDPA is a much larger organization, Rob's actions reflect on the entire sport, the bad blood that Rob generated (either rightly or wrongly) will not help bridge the gulf between the shooters of each sport.

Incorrect on all counts. I can't speak for USPSA, but IDPA actually used to allow local "outlaw" exceptions. Know what they learned? It caused chaos because people would show up to bigger matches or matches at other clubs and expect to follow their local club rules. Often they didn't even know their clubs had different/special rules. That's why the rulebook exists and if you want to run a match, you follow the rules. That's why we wrote the KSTG rulebook instead of just saying "IDPA, but you can shoot from appendix."

PPGMD
06-30-2012, 02:46 PM
Because some people expect a game, especially one organized on a national level, to be fair regardless of whether big prizes are at stake.

If it's the only accessible match to me, I don't want the results to be based on what buddies do for each other, I want it to be based on the rules.

"B. Is assessed for any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques."

I'd certainly say I don't wanna use a concealment garment because I'm just practicing for USPSA would count.

I've bent the rules quite a number of times to get first time shooters in the game. Often with the admonishment that I am only doing this because it was their first match and they weren't familiar with the equipment required. The key to this conversation is that we are talking about a first time shooter.

At later matches I will start requiring proper equipment and give them procedurals as necessary. The FTDR was never meant to be used that way, it was explained to me that the only thing higher is DQing someone for cheating, and that it was meant as a warning level before a DQ.


It wasn't minor enough for the guy to shoot from concealment as required, was it? I'd say the concealment garment difference is quite important and separates the two sports pretty significantly. If the only difference between two sports was that one allowed cleats and one didn't, if you showed up to the one that disallowed cleats and wore cleats, guess what? You're cheating. Period.

You mean those stupid fishing vests that don't slow someone who is used to using it down one bit? Cheating comes down to intent, which is the difference between a FTDR, and a procedural. Lets leave the vest aside for a moment, lets say the course of fire requires one array of targets to be shot weak hand only. I get the array and I don't fire weak handed, is it a procedural or a FTDR? Intent comes into play, if I did it because my score would be better even with the 3 seconds added by not firing weak handed it is a FTDR, but if I simply forgot it's a procedural. Same with the vest, the shooter wasn't coming into it to cheat with the purpose to get a higher score, he simply preferred to shoot without it.

Again I don't see how applying the second highest penalty in the game applies. FTDR were meant to be used on people that purposely violate the rules for a higher score. The shooters initial response (until he found out just how high of a penalty he was getting), show that he was never intending to do that. His response of being practically called a cheater is a little over blown, but understandable.


Again, you're focused solely on the violator and not the other dozen, score, or maybe hundred of people shooting the match. They showed up expecting a fair playing field... not someone getting special exemptions.

Nearly everyone would understand that first time shooters get a bit more leeway in an attempt to get them into the sport. Chances are unless they are part of the crew that started it all the Leatherslap contest with COL Cooper they've been cut some slack at their first match.


Incorrect on all counts. I can't speak for USPSA, but IDPA actually used to allow local "outlaw" exceptions. Know what they learned? It caused chaos because people would show up to bigger matches or matches at other clubs and expect to follow their local club rules. Often they didn't even know their clubs had different/special rules. That's why the rulebook exists and if you want to run a match, you follow the rules. That's why we wrote the KSTG rulebook instead of just saying "IDPA, but you can shoot from appendix."

Again we are talking about first time shooters not long term shooters.

tremiles
06-30-2012, 04:44 PM
Summary.

"I'm shooting without concealment because I'm just practicing for USPSA"

"You're going to get a FTDR penalty on each stage that calls for shooting from concealment"

"OK"

~FTDR~

"OK"

~FTDR~

"OK"

~scores calc'd"

"WAH! FTDR? WTF? WAH! MATH...WAH!"

Sent from my DROID2 using Tapatalk 2

sheperd80
06-30-2012, 09:41 PM
ANYWAYS.....

Id love to hear more about gun modifications if anyone has input on THAT SUBJECT.

MEH
07-01-2012, 07:36 AM
OK, so here's what I've done to my production guns lately.

Sold the M&P's.
Bought Glock's. Change factory sights.
Shoot them.

ToddG
07-01-2012, 07:50 AM
Sold the M&P's.
Bought Glock's. Change factory sights.
Shoot them.

Gamer.

taadski
07-01-2012, 11:33 AM
My SSP/Production pistols are both Sig P226s. The stock grips get stippled or grip tape (rule dependent), sights get changed out (currently with Dawson FO front/Warren rear). I install SRT parts and typically swap the main spring seats for the newer type as I like the feel (and the convenience) of them a bit better. Springs remain stock, although I will say it seems like "stock" mainsprings have gotten a touch subjectively lighter over the last few years (shrug).

T

WyoXd
07-01-2012, 11:57 AM
My current SSP gun is a Gen 4 Glock 17.

I am running a Warren Tactical rear sight with a Dawson Fiber Optic front.

Jager Polymer Guide Rod w/13 lb. ISMI recoil spring. (I bought this guide rod when Glock was still trying to come up with their final version of their factory RSA. I also tried a 15 lb. spring, but I really like the way the gun behaves with my loads with the current set up. I do have Glock's latest iteration of their RSA and it has been flawless--I use it for my carry ammo)

Lonewolf Barrel--I shoot lead for practice and matches. I tried lead with the factory barrel, but the amount of cleaning required wasn't worth it to me. And paying the cost of the LW barrel didn't take long when comparing jacketed(or plated) vs. lead bullet costs. I do switch to the factory barrel and RSA for carry.

Glockmeister grip plug.

Ghost Ultimate 3.5 connector with heavier trigger spring and a polish job.

Glock extended slide stop lever. I didn't originally want this, but when ordering some other stuff I decided to give it a try. Now, for me, it is much preferred.

sheperd80
07-01-2012, 12:28 PM
Why the dawson front with warren rear? And what heights are they?

Im still on a quest for sights and just cant make my mind up. I like the idea of ameriglo pro because this is also my nightstand gun, but they dont look great for competition.

The warren plain rear with fiber front is appealing and a good price.

A tall dawson fiber front with adjustable rear looks nice too but a little pricey and i dont think i quite need that kind of setup this early in my competitition days.

MEH
07-01-2012, 01:10 PM
Gamer.

lol. You can only say that if one of them was a 34. Oh wait, nevermind. ha ha.

WyoXd
07-01-2012, 01:14 PM
Why the dawson front with warren rear? And what heights are they?

Im still on a quest for sights and just cant make my mind up. I like the idea of ameriglo pro because this is also my nightstand gun, but they dont look great for competition.

The warren plain rear with fiber front is appealing and a good price.

A tall dawson fiber front with adjustable rear looks nice too but a little pricey and i dont think i quite need that kind of setup this early in my competitition days.

Ok, so here is my sight story: Initially I bought the package deal with the Warren rear/fiber front combo for two reasons: Price and I wanted to try Warren's fiber front as I had been running a Dawson on my XD. The Warren's width was between the two Dawson offerings and narrower than what I was used to. After trying the Warren front for a while, I just didn't like it for a few reasons. The main reason is probably that I spent so much time with the Warren rear/Dawson(.125") combo on my XD. Now I have two identical sight pictures on my two main guns. The Warren has a smaller diameter hole for the fiber optic "bulb" that you look at; so the dot is essentially smaller. The Dawson is also a longer sight resulting in a longer fiber optic tube which makes it brighter. To me the bigger, brighter dot is quicker to pick up. The Warren fiber is also situated higher in the sight post than the Dawson which just really messed with my point of impact--again I was just too used to my XD's setup. I also discovered that I apparently like a little bit wider front post too--definitely better accuracy wise for me.

sheperd80
07-01-2012, 04:40 PM
Yeah im still not sure what front width i want. Slightly smaller than the factory m&p seems ideal but as u mentioned the warren is quite a bit smaller. So i dunno im still on the fence.

I dont want my poi to change too much either. I could adapt to a slight adjustment because this gun is still fairly new to me. But i really like the way it is now...

Up to about 10 yds poa=poi (right behind the dot) then beyond that the poi rises slightly out to about 20 yds or so, meaning i use a 6 oclock hold at longer range, which is great because i can see more of the target. I havent shot a whole lot beyond 25-30yds but poi comes back down slowly. This is perfect for me and i really dont want to change that too much. I like that the poa is "close enough" all the way out to almost 30yds.

I guess ill just have to go with trial and error and see what works.

John Hearne
07-01-2012, 05:19 PM
Springs remain stock, although I will say it seems like "stock" mainsprings have gotten a touch subjectively lighter over the last few years.

It has been my experience that the stock Sig parts have huge potential if polished and cleaned up. I've had on P220 worked by Teddy Jacobson and its amazing how much the trigger improves with good cleanup.

My current duty gun is a P220. Nobody believes that it is stock because it is so smooth and light. I've done nothing to it but dry fire it a lot. When I say, a lot, I mean breaking firing pin position pins lot. That combined with a regular detail strip and lubing the internals with TWB-25 makes for a good trigger.

taadski
07-02-2012, 05:44 PM
I have to agree with you completely, John. The "mileage" trigger job does wonders on the P series pistols. Re my spring comment, I've had the chance to mess around with replacing a bunch of older mainsprings in some of our agency pistols with newer "standard weight" ones direct from Sig and noted what seemed like a significant difference in DA weight. It could be I'm losing my marbles, but I did a number of before and after comparisons and the newer mainsprings sure subjectively seemed lighter, pretty much across the board. Talking to their LE CS folks, it doesn't sound like it's a change they're owning though, FWIW. Different spring vendor maybe? Not sure.

Re the Dawson/Warren question, I went with em because they were fairly inexpensive and available. In addition, the Dawsons have a bunch of height/width combos available and at the time I wasn't sure what I wanted in that regard as I was messing around with some POI issues with the stock sights.


T

Cowtown44
07-02-2012, 07:24 PM
Unknowingly DQed my gun from production by having the trigger guard undercut and applying an aggressive stip job to some parts of the pistol. I love the work, feels great in my hand but illegal for production. I hadn't shot or had any interest in IDPA or USPSA when I had it done.

sheperd80
07-03-2012, 05:46 PM
Unknowingly DQed my gun from production by having the trigger guard undercut and applying an aggressive stip job to some parts of the pistol. I love the work, feels great in my hand but illegal for production. I hadn't shot or had any interest in IDPA or USPSA when I had it done.


Aw thats a bummer. But now you have a great excuse to start adding a magwell and raceholster and stuff if your already limited or limited 10 :)

VolGrad
07-04-2012, 06:53 AM
IDPA guns

SSP
OD Gen3 G17
grip tape
grip plug
GLOCK OEM extended mag catch & slide stop
Ameriglo sights ... GL405L all black wide notch rear, front is lime green paint only in super skinny width (can't recall dims)
Vogel Challenger trigger kit from www.GlockTriggers.com
silver paint marker inside magwell

ESP
M&P9fs
stippled backstrap MED
Costa Ludus mag catch
Ameriglo HACK night sights
Apex hard sear, RAM, and USB (factory springs retained)
silver paing marker inside magwell

CDP
stock, non-magwelled Wilson Combat CQB
10-8 all black rear sight
front night sight (can't even recall what maker)

G60
08-29-2012, 11:30 PM
Can anyone say if sanding down the 'hump' behind the magazine release on an m&p is legal for USPSA production?

The hump falls within the area where 'checkering, stippling, or other texture' may be applied, but the language of specifically prohibited modifications and features says "Grips – any addition or
removal of material which
changes the factory profile or adds function..." is prohibited.

I'm guessing it is prohibited since it doesn't so much change the factory profile of the grip (maybe a little), but adds function in making the magazine release easier to activate.

joshs
08-29-2012, 11:52 PM
Can anyone say if sanding down the 'hump' behind the magazine release on an m&p is legal for USPSA production?

The hump falls within the area where 'checkering, stippling, or other texture' may be applied, but the language of specifically prohibited modifications and features says "Grips – any addition or
removal of material which
changes the factory profile or adds function..." is prohibited.

I'm guessing it is prohibited since it doesn't so much change the factory profile of the grip (maybe a little), but adds function in making the magazine release easier to activate.

I think your interpretation is correct. My understanding of the rule is that any change to the grip profile, other than what is necessary for stippling, is prohibited.