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Mitchell, Esq.
06-23-2012, 11:45 PM
When you train, sometimes you wonder why you are pushing so hard...

Here's one answer...

http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1235&highlight=todd


That long thread about Aikido got me thinking about the assumptions that we make about our potential opponents when we enter into any kind of "self-defense" training. I suppose that virtually any martial art or fighting system will work if your opponent is a moron, but how does it fare when you have to go up against the rare "black swan" event---the perfect storm opponent situation?

Since you cannot control who you will run into, maybe it is prudent to create a template for a worst case opponent and assume that is who you will have to face in a fight for your life? Let's call him "Todd."

Physical fitness? Discipline? Motivation? Todd is a former Division I-level athlete. He benches over 350 and runs an all-out quarter-mile in just over 50 seconds. Todd spends his mornings pounding out miles of hard roadwork, pumps iron like a maniac in lieu of eating lunch, and spends his evenings dry-firing his EDC handgun, studying ways to hurt people, and beating the hell out of his Spar-Pro and heavy bag. He maintains an extensive library of books and videos on combat and survival-related topics.

He goes to bed tired but satisfied every night, satisfied because he has no other hobbies and because he looks at training as money in the bank---he will cash in his full paycheck on the fateful day that he faces you in a fight.

Todd spends his weekends doing strenuous physical activities and competing in IPSC Limited or IDPA matches. He spends his vacations going to places like Crucible, the Rogers Academy, and BSR. Todd has no other hobbies and he is not really concerned with being a "weird, paranoid freak" in the eyes of many normal people. Todd does not really hang out with "normal" people, anyway---he prefers to hang out with people like himself.

Warning of an attack? Deception? Good luck trying any Jedi mind tricks on Todd: he studies NLP and evolutionary psychology. Todd does not dress like some kind of thug, either: he knows that a clean-cut appearance increases his time/distance window of opportunity to ambush his prey. Pay very close attention to Todd's choice of boots, belt, and watch---they may be the only warnings that you get.

Todd knows that anonymity is the most important weapon in his formidable arsenal. He does not threaten, he does not warn, he does not talk shit or insult---those things take time and telegraph intentions. Todd just makes a binary decision and then acts.

Training? Background? Todd trains in the most effective fighting and survival techniques that he can. He is open-minded and non-judgmental, caring only that techniques fit within an overarching framework of logic and ruthless pragmatism. He lives his whole life this way---it is his structure, his discipline, his religion. Todd may have a black belt from Rickson Gracie, may have been a Golden Gloves boxer or a freestyle wrestler or a linebacker, may have trained in the famous Muay Thai gyms of Holland, maybe a student of WWII Combatives or battlefield jiu-jitsu methods. Maybe---and now the plot gets chilling (as Marcus Wynne describes in his books)---Todd has been the recipient of millions of dollars in government-sponsored training...money that was specifically spent to turn him into some kind of professional shadow-warrior badass, like John Macejunas or Kelly McCann.

Maybe Todd is all of the above: operator, martial artist, fighter, contact-sport athlete.

It does not really matter where he got his start, because he has synthesized his approach into a combination of very destructive, attack-oriented techniques that he can perform with maximal effort without much fear of hurting himself in the process. He can strike and he can grapple, and most importantly he always tries to hit first.

Weapons? Equipment? This is the best part: trying to beat Todd in an unarmed fight is largely an academic exercise, because you will never, ever catch Todd unarmed. He carries a Glock or 1911, Fox OC spray, and a fixed-blade with him CCW every single day of his life. Todd is not interested in hitting you with his hands or feet---given even the slightest provocation, his opening gambit will be to present his handgun from the holster and to demand that you remain very still and quiet. If you then try to disarm Todd, strike Todd, or reach for your own weapon to attack Todd, Todd will not hesitate to shoot until slide lock.

Todd also trains in ways to use his knife to great effect---maybe pikal, maybe more of a Kni-Com technique, maybe both. Names like James Keating and the Dog Brothers are very familiar to Todd.

Todd will run you over with his SUV if you give him reason to. If you are more of a distant problem, he keeps an M4 or a DSA FAL in a Pelican case in the trunk, next to his trauma med kit and bugout ruck.

Forget trying to get to Todd at home: his place is like a fortress, complete with crazy locks (Todd studies B&E, too), a large dog, and the ubiquitous Scattergun Technologies 12-gauge with Sure-Fire light.

Remember that Todd likes to move first---his first move is to draw a weapon on you. Todd is not stupid. This isn't Bloodsport or a Sho Kosugi film. Todd wants to win...period.

Todd sounds like a nightmare, doesn't he? Well, let's all take heart---while we cannot control whether or not we will ever have to face a Todd, we CAN control our own training and preparation. We can become "Todds" (!). Many of you probably consciously found similarities between your own lifestyles and habits and the ones that were described above. I think the idea is to imagine the most ferocious and skilled opponent that you could face in a nightmare, then try to become that person (within whatever constraints that you face). If you are not willing to become a Todd, then you need to ask yourself who it is that you believe you are training to face.

We can become the "worst-case scenario" for someone else to have to deal with. I believe that these forums are about this...the mindset, the techniques, the equipment. There has been a lot of heated debate lately on various subtopics beneath the mantle of self-defense, but we are all students (no one has all the answers) and we are share far more similarities than we do differences. I don't believe that anyone here is interested in promulgating some kind of massive mind-meld---dissenting opinions are what fuels progress and interesting debate.

Corlissimo
06-24-2012, 12:16 AM
When I first read this on TPI it was very sobering. While I had considered the possibility of being on the "short end" of an SD situation, this post made it seem much more real to me. Currently looking for some good, defense oriented MMA/BJJ training close to home since this training will need to be a regular and ongoing affair. No joy yet.

The scariest part of that scenario: the BG above just HAD to be "Todd". What a psycho!

the_swede
06-24-2012, 05:04 AM
Interesting thoughts but one thing came to my mind. Todd spends a lot of time training and preparing. Rangetrips, matches, working out, unarmed combat classes, knife classes, reading etc etc. This obviously comes at a cost as written above. Todd only hangs out with equals and doesn't have "normal" friends. Sure we all like to be prepared as much as possible should we ever get into trouble and to match Todd's "lethality" we would have to put in as much time and effort as him. But there needs to be some balance as I'm quite sure that most people can't or won't be like Todd even if that means taking risks in that specific troublesome situation. People have families, kids, wanna hang out with their friends. Being Todd basicly means doing nothing else with your life except going to work and preparing for that one moment.

Going to the range a couple of times a month and working out. Maybe just taking a basic self-defense course I think you know more than most people you'll ever face in a fight. But as with all performace gains, whether it's tuning your car or preparing for a fight, it's those last percent that cost so much to get ahold of and most people I've met so far are not willing to go that extra mile.

Joe in PNG
06-24-2012, 05:30 AM
We've seen guys like the above before, and typically a "Todd" gone bad will have a partner. Guys like Matrix/Platt and Phillips/Mătăsăreanu. Rare, but rather scary when it happens.

TGS
06-24-2012, 10:54 AM
This "Todd" guy is exactly who I don't want to be.

If that means I get my ass kicked or killed some day, then so be it. Feel free to piss on my grave and use me as an example to make yourselves feel better. I'm here to live and experience a good life. My self-defense training is to secure a good life to a reasonable degree, not the point of living itself.

With the exception of someone who's doing this stuff for his job where he's expecting to use it, I would go so far to say that someone who acts like "Todd" needs to get a girlfriend, go on a vacation, or volunteer themselves to a selfless cause...because they're really missing out on what could be actually worth saving, rather than harping all their energy on preparing for "that day" and not living at all in the meantime.

Balance. Don't be the proverbial Todd. Train hard and focused when you train, but don't make it your purpose of waking up every morning.

Kyle Reese
06-24-2012, 10:57 AM
This "Todd" guy is exactly who I don't want to be.

If that means I get my ass kicked or killed some day, then so be it. Feel free to piss on my grave and use me as an example to make yourselves feel better. I'm here to live and experience a good life. My self-defense training is to secure a good life to a reasonable degree, not the point of living itself.

With the exception of someone who's doing this stuff for his job where he's expecting to use it, I would go so far to say that someone who acts like "Todd" needs to get a girlfriend, go on a vacation, or volunteer themselves to a selfless cause...because they're really missing out on what could be actually worth saving, rather than harping all their energy on preparing for "that day" and not living at all in the meantime.

Balance. Don't be the proverbial Todd. Train hard and focused when you train, but don't make it your purpose of waking up every morning.

Thanks for being Captain Bringdown........ ;)

voodoo_man
06-24-2012, 10:59 AM
I have no issue being "Officer Todd."

This mentality has saved my life a few times over, not going to change it.

TGS
06-24-2012, 11:05 AM
I have no issue being "Officer Todd."

This mentality has saved my life a few times over, not going to change it.


I guess I wasn't clear enough when I wrote the following:

With the exception of someone who's doing this stuff for his job where he's expecting to use it,

TGS
06-24-2012, 11:14 AM
Also on TPI, HH wrote something that strikes what I'm getting at:


Yesterday, I had the opportunity to attend the Picasso to Warhol exhibit at the High Museum here in Atlanta...[snip]...

On the way over, she and I discussed how frequently members of the gun culture limit themselves in their opportunities to be a part of the American experience because of their security needs. Balance is an important part of being a “normal” human being. It’s one of the key things that distinguish us from the crazy Jihadis. One of the main reasons they’re nuts is because they spend all their time focused on one thing, their religion; it makes them unbalanced.

NETim
06-24-2012, 11:17 AM
Always someone bigger, badder, faster, stronger, younger and/or meaner somewhere. At 56 years of age, no matter how hard I train, there are those who will be able to take me with nowhere near the training "Todd" engages in. Not to say one shouldn't attempt to prepare to the best of their ability, but one must be realistic about this stuff.

In my world, I am more likely to come in contact with some little psycho punk kid with an SKS who feels bad 'cause Susie the Cute Girl doesn't like him. I just hope I am not the first one in his sights.

Jay Cunningham
06-24-2012, 11:25 AM
858

Some people just aren't gonna let that bully kick sand in their face ever again...

voodoo_man
06-24-2012, 11:44 AM
I guess I wasn't clear enough when I wrote the following:

I read this post on TPI before on here.

If you wanted to be "clear enough" maybe you should have posted "this post does not apply to..."

Kyle Reese
06-24-2012, 11:46 AM
Gents,
Lets keep this civil and constructive.

Thank you.

JM Campbell
06-24-2012, 12:19 PM
I think a lot of people forget a major part of the skill set.

MENTAL FORTITUDE

You may not know the most, be the strongest, shoot the fastest or most accurate but using your shear mental will and determination to win the fight matters just as much as the physical skill.

I may have 6 burning bloody rounds in my *SS but I'm still going to try to eliminate the threat period.

To die not trying to fight the threat in anyway possible that faces us is pretty contradictory of this forums montra and mindset.

Personally I have no ground game or instruction on a stand up fight, but I find myself in a situation that has me on the ground and almost out of the fight and all I have is a cigarette lighter....you bet your *SS I'm gonna find a way to shove that sucker into your temporal lobe to end the fight and get home to my wife.


Become the most mentally prepared mother trucker.

....OK I'm going to swerve back into my lane.

secondstoryguy
06-24-2012, 01:18 PM
Fortunately I find things like combatives, staying in shape, and shooting fun. I see these things as a hobbies with an endgame as opposed to many other hobbies that have no real function outside of the venue on which they are practiced.

TCinVA
06-24-2012, 10:20 PM
I'd be fine with having fangs just big enough to make "Todd" reluctant to pick a fight with me. I'm in better shape these days but I'm afraid I'll never be a one on one match for this blend of Chuck Norris, Bill Hickock, and Ronnie Coleman. I'd rather he figure that in the process of destroying me he might get shot just enough that he wouldn't be competitive in his next MMA event and leave me and mine alone rather than risk losing out on his chance to beat up Chuck Liddell.

BaiHu
06-24-2012, 10:45 PM
I'm with TGS on this one. I want my "Todds" 'on the wall' so I can sleep soundly and 'walking the beat' so I can stroll casually.

Anyone who knows me, knows I take training seriously and that I'm a bit competitive, whiney, but self-deprecating. Whatever gets me through my training-be it a smile, joke, anecdote or someone teasing my anal retentive behavior.

I love this stuff. I love my life. I want this stuff to be a part of my life, but not rule it-I like people too much to "have a plan to kill you when I first saw you" (although I appreciate it and think of it when I see some people), but it doesn't mean I won't "turn myself on" when I go into unfamiliar territory. I know, I know, it's too late then!

A balanced warrior should know and study life so they recognize a life worth living, saving and killing when/if the time comes.

But alas, I have this luxury where I live.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

Slavex
06-24-2012, 10:46 PM
Strangely enough fangs actually do work well for this.

TCinVA
06-25-2012, 08:23 AM
Strangely enough fangs actually do work well for this.

They're good at opening bagged milk in a hurry, too.

voodoo_man
06-25-2012, 08:28 AM
They're good at opening bagged milk in a hurry, too.

Is that like a bag of Fanta?

Byron
06-25-2012, 10:23 AM
Some people just aren't gonna let that bully kick sand in their face ever again...
I'm not sure who is the intended target of this snark; the original author, the original poster, or someone else in this thread.

It's worth mentioning a few things, both in response to the snark and in response to some comments in the thread;
This piece was written more than 7 years ago (probably closer to 10) on a forum that no longer exists
It was not written by Mitchell. He gives credit to "Belisarius" in the TPI thread, but curiously (and confusingly) not in this thread. I realize there is a link back to TPI, but given that it requires registration to view, I don't expect everyone to set up an account just to check a citation. (Side note: I'd be curious to know whether Mitchell requested permission before a wholesale copy-paste of someone else's work to a new forum)
"Belisarius" isn't worried about bullies kicking sand in his face, and likely never has been. Were he to join this forum, I have no doubt that the Staff would gladly bestow him with an SME title. It's not my place to speak of his background, but he's not a cliche chubby kid who decided to become a training ninja.


Those who attended the Mid-Atlantic Tactical Conference may have seen him present. Those who socialized with him in the evenings know that he indeed lives a great and balanced life.

It's also valuable to note the caveats in the original passage:

I think the idea is to imagine the most ferocious and skilled opponent that you could face in a nightmare, then try to become that person (within whatever constraints that you face). If you are not willing to become a Todd, then you need to ask yourself who it is that you believe you are training to face.
(Emphasis added)

It's right there; don't try to train beyond your lifestyle, but be honest with yourself about who you are prepared to face. It's a philosophical question that is worth pondering for anyone who trains.

Matt C.
06-25-2012, 10:34 AM
" Somewhere someone is training while I am not, and if we should meet in battle, I will be defeated."

The first thing I think about every morning for the last 25 yrs.

David Armstrong
06-25-2012, 11:30 AM
Interesting thoughts but one thing came to my mind. Todd spends a lot of time training and preparing. Rangetrips, matches, working out, unarmed combat classes, knife classes, reading etc etc. This obviously comes at a cost as written above. Todd only hangs out with equals and doesn't have "normal" friends. Sure we all like to be prepared as much as possible should we ever get into trouble and to match Todd's "lethality" we would have to put in as much time and effort as him. But there needs to be some balance as I'm quite sure that most people can't or won't be like Todd even if that means taking risks in that specific troublesome situation. People have families, kids, wanna hang out with their friends. Being Todd basicly means doing nothing else with your life except going to work and preparing for that one moment.

Going to the range a couple of times a month and working out. Maybe just taking a basic self-defense course I think you know more than most people you'll ever face in a fight. But as with all performace gains, whether it's tuning your car or preparing for a fight, it's those last percent that cost so much to get ahold of and most people I've met so far are not willing to go that extra mile.
Emphasis added as that is the key. Few people are willing to do that, fewer still have the resources. I Don't worry about a Todd any more that I worry about an attack by a man-eating tiger while I'm going about my daily life. I have better things to do with my life than prepare for the outer realm. Doesn't mean I'm not prepared, it simply means I've decided that resources can be better spent on other things than preparing beyond a certain level. Life must be balanced. Should I be a better gunfighter or should I help send my daughter to school? Should I become a better Aikido player or spend those resources becoming a better driver? Do I expend resources now for what might happen or reserve and invest them for will happen later? Always an interesting choice. I think TGS summed it up quite well:
"If that means I get my ass kicked or killed some day, then so be it. Feel free to piss on my grave and use me as an example to make yourselves feel better. I'm here to live and experience a good life. My self-defense training is to secure a good life to a reasonable degree, not the point of living itself."

Mitchell, Esq.
06-25-2012, 12:47 PM
I'm not sure who is the intended target of this snark; the original author, the original poster, or someone else in this thread.

It's worth mentioning a few things, both in response to the snark and in response to some comments in the thread;
[LIST] This piece was written more than 7 years ago (probably closer to 10) on a forum that no longer exists
It was not written by Mitchell. He gives credit to "Belisarius" in the TPI thread, but curiously (and confusingly) not in this thread. I realize there is a link back to TPI, but given that it requires registration to view, I don't expect everyone to set up an account just to check a citation. (Side note: I'd be curious to know whether Mitchell requested permission before a wholesale copy-paste of someone else's work to a new forum)

Byron is 100% correct it isn't my work, and I should have asked Bel if I could repost his work, not assumed.

As to credit being omitted in this thread, that was my fault for improper copying, and I'll correct that if I can edit the original thread.

Lomshek
06-25-2012, 02:32 PM
" Somewhere someone is training while I am not, and if we should meet in battle, I will be defeated."

The first thing I think about every morning for the last 25 yrs.

Very true but as with all things I try to keep some perspective. I (we) are not likely the targets of a SEAL hit team nor are we in the sights of a SWAT team.

There will always be the outlier but as with Todd's post about the NYC stats and SHO/WHO use do we obsess about the 1% of 1% of 1% or do we focus on the statistically more likely opponent.

The Platt/Matix (et al) example is interesting because the one thing they all had in their favor was going up against average LEO's (not bashing in any way) who were not exactly training junkies. I would expect most PF.com users have a significantly higher level of competence than the average cop/agent just because of who frequents a forum like this.

I'll live my family life with a background of physical and martial training to do what I can to keep us all safe but I won't neglect all else in the pursuit of battle readiness.

rob_s
06-25-2012, 02:43 PM
Is the point here to be Todd or get beat by Todd?

I guess I'm too dense to understand the rambling point of the quoted content in the OP.

voodoo_man
06-25-2012, 03:00 PM
Is the point here to be Todd or get beat by Todd?

I guess I'm too dense to understand the rambling point of the quoted content in the OP.

It all depends on what you are going for, so its subjective. Some people do not want to be Todd, some people have to be Todd, some people are Todd naturally.

These are concepts everyone should figure out before they carry a firearm.

rob_s
06-25-2012, 03:09 PM
These are concepts everyone should figure out before they carry a firearm.

How likely is that to happen, do you think?

BaiHu
06-25-2012, 03:14 PM
It all depends on what you are going for, so its subjective. Some people do not want to be Todd, some people have to be Todd, some people are Todd naturally.

These are concepts everyone should figure out before they carry a firearm.

That's a great point, voodoo man. As Sun Tzu said:

"If you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle."

I think this goes back to the magic talisman that can be imbued to any skill/tool, be it a gun, knife, knowing a martial art, etc. If you don't know yourself, specifically your strengths/weaknesses and attitudes/biases, then you will be opening more doors of trouble than need be.

voodoo_man
06-25-2012, 03:14 PM
How likely is that to happen, do you think?

Unlikely.

Is it absolutely required in order to get shit straight? Yes.

I have heard many people give me the "I cannot believe this happened" line when all they had to do was sit down think about the possibilities, realistically, that may occur.

Guess its the reason why we have forums and post this information on them, I would not want anyone to go through extensive trouble because they failed to be informed.

Failure2Stop
06-25-2012, 03:29 PM
I train to be better than I was yesterday.

ToddG
06-25-2012, 03:49 PM
I train to be better than I was yesterday.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/avatar_9be9f660f961_128.png

It's all well and good to set long term goals. Heck, I write about it on my blog frequently. But the reality is that improvement happens incrementally and when people start looking at the Big Goal At The End sometimes they lose sight of what they need to do today.

I realize there are those who find the uber-villain motivational, and if that is what motivates them, so be it. But if you go back and read that description seriously, you're talking about someone who is a full time athlete, full time martial artists, full time shooter, full time tactical bookworm ... all wrapped into one. He's someone, candidly, without a life. Or time to sleep. Ever.

Me, I enjoy a good nap once in a while.

Luckily, being a Todd just comes naturally to me.

(and for God's sake if we're going to continue this conversation further on this forum, we need a different name for the uber-villain... I vote for Thanos)

jetfire
06-25-2012, 04:00 PM
You know, I've never thought of all the physical training (running, lifting, pt) that I do as training for a fight. I do it because I like bacon and beer but I also like looking with my shirt off, and those are frequently mutually exclusive.

Jay Cunningham
06-25-2012, 04:10 PM
(and for god's sake if we're going to continue this conversation further on this forum, we need a different name for the uber-villain... I vote for thanos)

spoiler alert!!!!

ToddG
06-25-2012, 04:17 PM
spoiler alert!!!!

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ogERtmp8Uuo/0.jpg

sheperd80
06-25-2012, 06:16 PM
This "Todd" guy is exactly who I don't want to be.

If that means I get my ass kicked or killed some day, then so be it. Feel free to piss on my grave and use me as an example to make yourselves feel better. I'm here to live and experience a good life. My self-defense training is to secure a good life to a reasonable degree, not the point of living itself.

With the exception of someone who's doing this stuff for his job where he's expecting to use it, I would go so far to say that someone who acts like "Todd" needs to get a girlfriend, go on a vacation, or volunteer themselves to a selfless cause...because they're really missing out on what could be actually worth saving, rather than harping all their energy on preparing for "that day" and not living at all in the meantime.

Balance. Don't be the proverbial Todd. Train hard and focused when you train, but don't make it your purpose of waking up every morning.

This^



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2

Mr_White
06-25-2012, 10:27 PM
I've always felt that the uber-threat Todd was really just a boogeyman. A Keyser Soze. He's shorthand for an opponent who is top-tier in the phase of conflict under current discussion, whatever that discussion is anytime Todd is invoked.

"Yes, that technique/gear (hip-shooting, a warning shot, bluffing with an empty gun, a side headlock, a finger lock, a Swiss Army knife, a Seecamp carried C3 at the bottom of your purse) worked in situation X, but what happens when you are dealing with Todd?"

We at pistol-forum, who train and practice in our chosen area(s) of dedication, are well aware of the self-defense oriented gun folks who fail to adequately prepare for anything other than a real dunce. The same phenomenon occurs with practitioners of all other sub-sets of self-defense skills too - that is, self-delusion about the potential efficacy of a threat and what it might actually take to overcome them. And the Todd idea addresses that delusion from every angle.

Uber-threat Todd is an impossibility. As pointed out by Todd Green, each of his mastered sub-disciplines is itself a lifetime undertaking and study. He'd generally be unbeatable, and we'd never fight him anyway. We wouldn't be aggressing against him, and what do we even have that he wants? If he were going to rob people, he'd be a bad-guy hedge fund manager or something.

Uber-threat Todd has no balanced life to be sure. He doesn't exist or have any life at all, except as an idea to remind all of us not to get complacent, and to correctly recognize the potential level of threat we could face in any given situation.

How about the old man that Mike Tyson beat the crap out of after a fender-bender? That was Todd.

How about the combat-experienced Rangers who were taking down banks several years ago in Washington State? They were Todd.

He's a multifaceted motivational tool and walking worst-case scenario boiled down to a single four-letter word, and he exists to help us not kid ourselves.

Ed L
06-26-2012, 02:06 AM
I've always felt that the uber-threat Todd was really just a boogeyman. A Keyser Soze. He's shorthand for an opponent who is top-tier in the phase of conflict under current discussion, whatever that discussion is anytime Todd is invoked.

"Yes, that technique/gear (hip-shooting, a warning shot, bluffing with an empty gun, a side headlock, a finger lock, a Swiss Army knife, a Seecamp carried C3 at the bottom of your purse) worked in situation X, but what happens when you are dealing with Todd?"

You don't even need a fictionalized ultimate threat like Todd to recognize that things that may work against incompetant boobs or marginal threats would not work against a serious violent criminal, many of whom you can learn about by reading crime reports and police reports.

You can even read first hand accounts of defensive gun usages by Tom Given's students and see where certain less capable, methods, skills, or guns would not have worked.


How about the old man that Mike Tyson beat the crap out of after a fender-bender? That was Todd.

This is true. That old man could have spent his whole life doing nothing but training full time in boxing and would have still gotten his ass kicked by Mike Tyson. Tyson was a champion for a reason and was only beatable by a few people in his weight class who did nothing but train full time to do so. Even after not training for a few years or decades he would still be very dangerous. This is where I have trouble with the whole Todd paradigm and training to beat Todd or training to be Todd.


He'd generally be unbeatable, and we'd never fight him anyway. We wouldn't be aggressing against him, and what do we even have that he wants?

Exactly how I feel.

By the description and definition, this Todd--a golden gloves boxer, MMA fighter, BJJ black Belt who benches 350lbs, a superskilled shooter who is always armed, a former SPECOPS, who always strikes first--ths Todd is unbeatable, be it in an armed or unarmed confrontation.

If most people were to quit their jobs and spend the entire waking hours of the rest of their life training (assuming that they had the money to do so), 99.999% of the people out their still would not be able to beat this Todd or survive a violent encounter with him.

I understand the point of the original post and mental exercise, but I think it is over the top in that it is a completely unbeatable threat that most people would not stand a chance against. They wouldn't stand a chance even if they devoted the rest of their waking moments to nothing but training. It's like worrying about how I would defend myself if a drug cartel paid off a corrupt SWAT team from Mexico to launch an attack on my house.

By studying crime and criminal activities, there are enough real threats to worry about and prepare the best you can for.

Just to clarify, I am a huge believer in training & preparation, but not a fan of this Todd paradigm--be it preparing to beat a Todd or seriously expecting to become near Todd level.

I'm not saying that it isn't a goal that some people may choose to strive for, just an unrealistic objective for most people.

GOP
06-26-2012, 02:22 AM
This thread makes me laugh.

I believe a couple of us (or 99% in this thread) have completely missed the point.

BaiHu
06-26-2012, 08:49 AM
This thread makes me laugh.

I believe a couple of us (or 99% in this thread) have completely missed the point.

To add to the 'missing the point', let's look at this another way for my own amusement.

Anyone can beat you anytime. The old man with a cane with bad vision could also be randomly pointing and gesticulating at Tyson while calling him a 'big jerk' and accidentally poke him in the eye and detach his retina.

I believe it was John Stuart Mill (someone find this quote for real, plz) who said something akin to this: "Man is equal only in his ability to do each other in."

Dropkick
06-26-2012, 09:16 AM
I don't think the point of TODD is that he's unbeatable.

I think the real point is that TODD is that he is a multi-disciplinary. TODD knows how to fight hand to hand, knows how to shoot pistols/rifles/shotguns, he knows wilderness survival, he knows first aid, he knows how to stay in shape and eat right, he knows how to wear a designer suit, he knows out to mix a cocktail, he knows the scent of a woman...

To me, TODD is motivation keep learning about different things. I may never attain the unconscious competence TODD has about everything, but I can very well try to have conscious competence about as many topics as I can.

Mr_White
06-26-2012, 11:31 AM
This thread makes me laugh.

I believe a couple of us (or 99% in this thread) have completely missed the point.

What do you think the point is?

Just curious, particularly as you are skilled in both MMA and shooting.

bdcheung
06-26-2012, 12:28 PM
This is who I'm training to fight:
862

GOP
06-26-2012, 12:52 PM
What do you think the point is?

Just curious, particularly as you are skilled in both MMA and shooting.

I just think it was written as a motivational tool, not to be taken literally at all. It definitely pumped me up on my run last night (at 2AM...my schedule sucks lol)!

Just to add to what Baihu said, anyone can beat anyone.

Mr_White
06-26-2012, 01:20 PM
I just think it was written as a motivational tool, not to be taken literally at all. It definitely pumped me up on my run last night (at 2AM...my schedule sucks lol)!

Just to add to what Baihu said, anyone can beat anyone.

Thank you for the further explanation. I really wasn't sure, since so many different people see this different ways. Sounds like you and I see it pretty similarly.

jwperry
06-26-2012, 09:04 PM
When faced against a sociopath who has spent every minute training for the past 10 years for an episode of death and destruction, I'd rather be lucky than good.

That doesn't mean that I'm going to stop pistol training, my attempts to regain my former physical stature and my search for "one carbine to rule them all".

Robert Mitchum
06-27-2012, 12:54 AM
Take the pistol part out and I have seen a few Todds and had to deal with them.
But at the time I was a Todd myself and could hold my own and did.
Now retired I still train but I have cut way down on every being in a situation where
my My inner Todd will every come out again..
Life is to short to worry about the Todds of the world learn how to read them and you find out
that anyone can go down fast and hard ...
Everyone has there Kryptonite..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Exrpoc6GP60

matman
06-27-2012, 07:16 AM
I think many here see Todd as a insurmountable obstacle, and further rationalize their own inner laziness and overall weaknesses. Do I lack skill Todd has? Yes, do I have greater skill in areas Todd may not? Probably so. Should the day come (it probably will, I hope it won't) that I meet Todd AGAIN, how have I prepared with the time I have to enable me to best this guy? I've been in bad situations and been shot at by guys that had the training, had the mindset, had me right where they wanted me... I'm still here Thank God! Do I take that as I should just lay up, eat chips and ice cream and say I'm "enjoying life"? Hell no! I wake up early and train until exhaustion many days physically or mentally to be better the next time I meet Todd. I still place a priority on having fun and enjoying my life, wife, son.

Good example last Saturday I awoke, rucked 10 miles, got home got cleaned up, took my family out, had a great day, then got a sitter and took my wife out for drinks and dancing. Yes I was tired... But I didn't make excuses to NOT train, I made myself better in more then one sense that day!

I hate seeing people who are over weight, out of shape and lack technical or tactical proficiency use excuses to make themselves feel better for not Training things they dislike doing. I find things I hate every week and do them to make myself both mentally and physically stronger.

The point to Todd is get rid of those excuses and TRAIN! Todd's really not that far fetched this day in age... Don't believe me, just look in the prison system.

rob_s
06-27-2012, 08:20 AM
I think many here see Todd as a insurmountable obstacle, and further rationalize their own inner laziness and overall weaknesses.

Or they've already gone down the path of chasing the impossible dream, realized what they are sacrificing to chase that 0.001% chance encounter, understand that avoidance has way more to do with surviving such an encounter than anything else, and got sensible about their training and their needs and goals.

You have to have priorities. If you're not going to the range or exercising in order to sit on the sofa with a gallon of rocky road, then yeah you're jacked up. But if the reason you're not doing those things is because you are spending good quality time with your kids, I'd say you understand very well the concept of priorities.

Men seem to chase proficiency in inconsequential crap like women chase looking like a Barbie doll. We hold up Tiger, and Mike, and Leatham, and Operator-whoever as these goals for ourselves that are just ridiculous. Hell, even in business, I've met very, very few wildly successful men with well-adjusted kids. Priorities? Yay! You got a Ferrari and your kid got another stint in rehab!

Goals need to be realistic and attainable, but just out of our immediate reach. And they need to be weighed against other priorities in life.

JHC
06-27-2012, 10:29 AM
Take the pistol part out and I have seen a few Todds and had to deal with them.
But at the time I was a Todd myself and could hold my own and did.
Now retired I still train but I have cut way down on every being in a situation where
my My inner Todd will every come out again..
Life is to short to worry about the Todds of the world learn how to read them and you find out
that anyone can go down fast and hard ...
Everyone has there Kryptonite..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Exrpoc6GP60

Bob Mitchum and I have discussed this at some length as his experience is VAST. IMO he raises a couple points that are key for my world. I'm in good shape. Have some functional HH ability that I'd really really never want to be Plan A (but have decent foot speed still ;). I have way above average gun skills. And I think I have pretty well tuned awareness aptitudes that have worked pretty well plus excercised judgement to diffuse events or otherwise avoid them. But sometimes there's no diffusing anything and there's the rub.

The thing the evil Todd has that gives him his big advantage is the willingness to GO! Right now. That is the big disadvantage I have living a decent balanced civilian life; the risk of getting off the line too slowly vs Todd. So what's left is all on the software side. To be able to see it and get that OODA loop cycling fast. If I can "see" it; just for a second or two, Todd doesn't have a chance but for dumb luck. If I miss it; visa versa.

JHC
06-27-2012, 10:31 AM
Or they've already gone down the path of chasing the impossible dream, realized what they are sacrificing to chase that 0.001% chance encounter, understand that avoidance has way more to do with surviving such an encounter than anything else, and got sensible about their training and their needs and goals.

You have to have priorities. If you're not going to the range or exercising in order to sit on the sofa with a gallon of rocky road, then yeah you're jacked up. But if the reason you're not doing those things is because you are spending good quality time with your kids, I'd say you understand very well the concept of priorities.

Men seem to chase proficiency in inconsequential crap like women chase looking like a Barbie doll. We hold up Tiger, and Mike, and Leatham, and Operator-whoever as these goals for ourselves that are just ridiculous. Hell, even in business, I've met very, very few wildly successful men with well-adjusted kids. Priorities? Yay! You got a Ferrari and your kid got another stint in rehab!

Goals need to be realistic and attainable, but just out of our immediate reach. And they need to be weighed against other priorities in life.

+1

jetfire
06-27-2012, 10:41 AM
That's why I'd rather have a Ferrari than a kid. The Ferrari needs less maintenance.

David Armstrong
06-27-2012, 10:47 AM
from rob_s:
Or they've already gone down the path of chasing the impossible dream, realized what they are sacrificing to chase that 0.001% chance encounter, understand that avoidance has way more to do with surviving such an encounter than anything else, and got sensible about their training and their needs and goals.
QFT. As I'm fond of pointing out, we all compromise with pretty much everything we do. And different people will compromise at different points for different reasons.

MadMax17
06-27-2012, 10:50 AM
+1

Not to get all sappy, but reminds me of a quote I'm fond of. "Not every successful man is a good father, but every good father is a successful man.'

JHC
06-27-2012, 11:11 AM
Not to get all sappy, but reminds me of a quote I'm fond of. "Not every successful man is a good father, but every good father is a successful man.'

Word. And my new sig line.

GOP
06-27-2012, 12:04 PM
I think many here see Todd as a insurmountable obstacle, and further rationalize their own inner laziness and overall weaknesses. Do I lack skill Todd has? Yes, do I have greater skill in areas Todd may not? Probably so. Should the day come (it probably will, I hope it won't) that I meet Todd AGAIN, how have I prepared with the time I have to enable me to best this guy? I've been in bad situations and been shot at by guys that had the training, had the mindset, had me right where they wanted me... I'm still here Thank God! Do I take that as I should just lay up, eat chips and ice cream and say I'm "enjoying life"? Hell no! I wake up early and train until exhaustion many days physically or mentally to be better the next time I meet Todd. I still place a priority on having fun and enjoying my life, wife, son.

Good example last Saturday I awoke, rucked 10 miles, got home got cleaned up, took my family out, had a great day, then got a sitter and took my wife out for drinks and dancing. Yes I was tired... But I didn't make excuses to NOT train, I made myself better in more then one sense that day!

I hate seeing people who are over weight, out of shape and lack technical or tactical proficiency use excuses to make themselves feel better for not Training things they dislike doing. I find things I hate every week and do them to make myself both mentally and physically stronger.

The point to Todd is get rid of those excuses and TRAIN! Todd's really not that far fetched this day in age... Don't believe me, just look in the prison system.

You'd all be very wise to listen to this guy's advice.

You can accomplish a lot in a short amount of time if you simply do it. None of us are advocating trying to be a professional fighter, a professional shooter, and trying to win the Crossfit Games all at the same time. I think some of us are advocating having a combined skill set to include a high level of skill shooting, with empty hands/blades, and being very physically fit. I think it would shock many of you how much skill you can develop in all of these areas in a short amount of time weekly if you are consistent. I know Matman has a family and is a very good Husband/Father but still is one of the most skilled dudes I know, all because he pushes himself and is consistent. Some of us love self-improvement and pursue training (and the associated sports) because there really isn't a higher level of competition on the planet than combat.

Through proper time management and smart training, you can be an amazing family man, successful at your job, and excellent at your hobbies. People have been doing this since the beginning of time in various aspects. That 2 hours you spend watching TV at night? Dry fire or hit a heavy bag instead. Want to spend time with your family? Cut off the TV, grab your ruck, and all of you go on on a long walk...have kids? Make it fun for them to go with you. My training has improved tremendously when I cut out the TV and had all breaking news sent to my iPhone. Have 30 minutes on your lunch break? Pack your lunch, change, go for a 20 minute run at a fast pace, change back, get back to work. Have 45 minutes free one night a week? Go in the gym, Squat heavy, Overhead Press heavy, and Deadlift heavy. Want to try some MMA/Kali/H2H stuff? Wake up an hour early, hit up the MMA gym 1x a week (most have early classes), then go to work. Of course, since we may not ever be a Todd, maybe we should sit around and eat cake instead?

JHC
06-27-2012, 12:40 PM
Apparently is ain't for everyone but my days start a 0430 and it's workout first. Over many years I've found that's the only sure way to get it in daily.

LittleLebowski
06-27-2012, 01:14 PM
The title of this thread made me think of Fight Club.

Jay Cunningham
06-27-2012, 01:15 PM
The title of this thread made me think of Fight Club.

You're not supposed to talk about it though.

NickA
06-27-2012, 01:18 PM
You're not supposed to talk about it though.

I forget, is that the first or second rule?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

LittleLebowski
06-27-2012, 01:21 PM
Or they've already gone down the path of chasing the impossible dream, realized what they are sacrificing to chase that 0.001% chance encounter, understand that avoidance has way more to do with surviving such an encounter than anything else, and got sensible about their training and their needs and goals.

You have to have priorities. If you're not going to the range or exercising in order to sit on the sofa with a gallon of rocky road, then yeah you're jacked up. But if the reason you're not doing those things is because you are spending good quality time with your kids, I'd say you understand very well the concept of priorities.

Men seem to chase proficiency in inconsequential crap like women chase looking like a Barbie doll. We hold up Tiger, and Mike, and Leatham, and Operator-whoever as these goals for ourselves that are just ridiculous. Hell, even in business, I've met very, very few wildly successful men with well-adjusted kids. Priorities? Yay! You got a Ferrari and your kid got another stint in rehab!

Goals need to be realistic and attainable, but just out of our immediate reach. And they need to be weighed against other priorities in life.

Well said, my friend.

LittleLebowski
06-27-2012, 01:23 PM
Gandhi. I'd fight Gandhi.

Tony Muhlenkamp
06-27-2012, 01:24 PM
That's why I'd rather have a Ferrari than a kid. The Ferrari needs less maintenance.

True, but...

My father thinks that raising kids is the most rewarding thing he has ever done. I'm still at the point of taking that on faith with my own kids (4 teenage daughters), but I am far enough along to know what he means.

ToddG
06-27-2012, 01:28 PM
Gandhi. I'd fight Gandhi.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/Sillie82/Supernatural2/505PS14.jpg

Tony Muhlenkamp
06-27-2012, 01:42 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/Sillie82/Supernatural2/505PS14.jpg

I saw that episode; Ghandi totally kicked a$$.

LOKNLOD
06-27-2012, 01:51 PM
Maybe he meant Indira, not Mohandas.

I always pictured him with the stretchy legs like Dhalsim.... scary.

SouthNarc
06-27-2012, 02:08 PM
Since the forum this originated from is mine and I have a personal relationship with the original author let me TRY and qualify a few things.

"Todd" was an archetype and an academic exercise. Nothing more nothing less. The purpose of the original thread over seven years ago WAS to explore the extremes. The author himself is probably as close to Todd as one could get though he would never say that. Former SEAL officer, trained MMA with Wanderlei in Curitiba, a Ph.D in Decision Science from Oxford UK, and he currently manages a boutique hedge fund worth about $100 million driven by a proprietary algorithem that he developed as his thesis for his doctorate.

Here's his blog:

http://bastiatblogger.blogspot.com/

I think this thread has strayed well away from Mitchell's original intent in posting this, and is certainly not the original spirit that the post was intended to be taken.

jetfire
06-27-2012, 02:10 PM
True, but...

My father thinks that raising kids is the most rewarding thing he has ever done. I'm still at the point of taking that on faith with my own kids (4 teenage daughters), but I am far enough along to know what he means.

But kids don't go 210 MPH. And if they do, they're the Flash.

NickA
06-27-2012, 02:21 PM
But kids don't go 210 MPH.

Ever been in a room full of five year olds that just polished off an ice cream cake? :)



Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

Kimura
06-27-2012, 10:43 PM
So forgive me for my ignorance, but what is the point of this thread? I see seven pages of people saying they do or don't train for the possibilities and a lot of opinions on a "balanced life". Still not sure what that implies. A lot of opinions on others training habits etc. A post on chasing the unattainable, which is not why most of us train to fight, but that's ok. etc, ect. So, what's the point?

l8apex
06-28-2012, 12:30 AM
The point is, train to fight an enemy that may have equal to more skills than you possess. Train in a way that will make you incrementally better at every session. Train for your environment, for the enemy you would normally face.

Most of all be able to recognize the threat early, OODA, where most fights are won even with rudimentary skills. Being ahead of the curve increases your chances exponentially. You could have all the ninja fantastic skills in the world, but if you are easily ambushed or have a non-existent awareness level where you can't see things/situations that are developing/escalating, your skills aren't worth shit.

JHC
06-28-2012, 06:20 AM
The point is, train to fight an enemy that may have equal to more skills than you possess. Train in a way that will make you incrementally better at every session. Train for your environment, for the enemy you would normally face.

Most of all be able to recognize the threat early, OODA, where most fights are won even with rudimentary skills. Being ahead of the curve increases your chances exponentially. You could have all the ninja fantastic skills in the world, but if you are easily ambushed or have a non-existent awareness level where you can't see things/situations that are developing/escalating, your skills aren't worth shit.

Word.

Sometimes I think I may sound like an assh$%# but train to standards until you feel confident. No of course don't be over confident. Don't think your superman. But fer crissakes if I didn't feel pretty confident in my total skill set after working on them for several decades, something went way wrong. IMO this is part of mindset as is the mental awareness. It has come in very handy managing some tight situations.

I don't think Jeff Cooper was so far off when he pondered the question long ago: "When do you know you are proficient?" IIRC his only answer distilled like a Modern Technique Aristotle was "When your attacker is in more danger from you than you are from him." Not possible without avoiding getting totally blindsided.

rob_s
06-28-2012, 06:32 AM
Most of all be able to recognize the threat early, OODA, where most fights are won even with rudimentary skills. Being ahead of the curve increases your chances exponentially. You could have all the ninja fantastic skills in the world, but if you are easily ambushed or have a non-existent awareness level where you can't see things/situations that are developing/escalating, your skills aren't worth shit.

Starts way before that.

Don't live in a crap-hole neighborhood. Can't afford not to? Move to another part of the country. If your income level is that low you don't have ties that bind anyway. Go find the same low-paying job in an area that's not full of problem people. Don't go to the ATM at 3 AM. Don't do drugs. Don't associate with people who do. Even family. Generally speaking, don't be an idiot. There was a kid that posted on M4C that he got his hat rack cracked because he was out drinking at a dirtbag bar and made friends with a drifter. Yeah, stupid hurts. A lot.

Outside of burglary gone wrong (like someone home when they don't expect it) it is very rare to just find some random act of street violence, and even rarer in the middle to upper-middle class.

None of this means you can't go out, have to go to the beach with an NAA .22 mag shoved in the crack of your ass, etc. It's a balance. But outside of a professional like a cop or a very rare, very bad, situation if you've gotten to some OODA problem you done f-ed up several times just to get to that point.

Being ahead of the curve is right. Stay in school Get a good job. Ditch your idiot childhood friends. THAT'S being ahead of the curve.

Be fit enough to carry your unconscious wife to the car. Make her be fit enough that it's not harder than it has to be. Be fit enough yourself that she at least has some fighting chance of dragging you. Be able to tote your kids. and don't make them heavier than necessary, thus making them harder to carry, either. They are all much more likely of falling and hitting their head on the floor than they are of falling victim to a home invasion murder. If that's not true, move.

Priorities.
Compromises.
Reality.

ghettomedic
06-28-2012, 09:45 AM
Being ahead of the curve is right. Stay in school. Get a good job. Ditch your idiot childhood friends. THAT'S being ahead of the curve.

Be fit enough to carry your unconscious wife to the car. Make her be fit enough that it's not harder than it has to be. Be fit enough yourself that she at least has some fighting chance of dragging you. Be able to tote your kids. and don't make them heavier than necessary, thus making them harder to carry, either. They are all much more likely of falling and hitting their head on the floor than they are of falling victim to a home invasion murder. If that's not true, move.

Priorities.
Compromises.
Reality.

Amen, brother.

As an epidemiologist-in-training, I can tell you that having a college degree, household income over $75,000/yr, BMI of less than 25, eating 5 or more servings of vegetables a day, not developing hypertension or insulin resistance and exercising for 30 min/day 5x/wk will do more to ensure your long-term ability to protect, provide for and live to enjoy your family than any instrument of mayhem you can tuck IWB.

We train with firearms, edged weapons, empty hand, etc for the end goal of imposing our will onto another person to protect our lives, the lives of our loved ones or the lives of innocents. Perhaps if we scaled back 10-20% on the firearms/ammo/training/gear budget and used the money and time saved to impose our will inwards we could drop some pounds, gain some cardiorespiratory endurance, lower our cholesterol, unf**k our financial situations, take that local First Responder/CPR course, eat healthier and get that physical we've been putting off.

Same end goal, right? Save the lives of our loved ones or protect our own life so we can continue to provide for those we care about?

GOP
06-28-2012, 11:39 AM
Priorities.
Compromises.
Reality.
Defeat.

TGS
06-28-2012, 12:00 PM
Priorities.
Compromises.
Reality.
Defeat.

DILLIGAF

GOP
06-28-2012, 12:22 PM
DILLIGAF

No. :D

I can't help but laugh at this thread. It really is a train wreck.

I guess my goals are different than most here, I'm young enough and skilled enough to pursue a career in the shooting sports and eventually become an instructor, so I devote a larger amount of time to training than most. My life is also very happy, joyous, and balanced in other areas. I guess not having kids yet is a benefit?

Jay Cunningham
06-28-2012, 12:33 PM
Since this thread has turned into "you just don't understand, it's an ultimate warrior thing" I'm going to say it's run its course.