New York State Bans High Capacity Thanksgiving Dinners

[Sanch]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/17/us/sheriffs-ignore-cuomo-executive-order-trnd/index.html

NY state limiting private residences to no more than 10 people. That’s a common sense reasonable number of relatives to have over for thanksgiving. No one needs more than 10 people for one holiday dinner.

Sheriffs around the state refuse to enforce this executive action from Emperor Cuomo.

Given its NY, I thought their magic number has been dropped to 7?

[TheNewbie]

Let’s hope people ignore this crap. Freedom and the health of society are on the line these days.

[Bucky]

First off, great thread title.

So we limit gatherings to 10 people. Instead of 1 gathering, a family has 3. Uncle Joe goes to one for brunch, one for dinner, and one for late night drinks. Say Uncle Joe is infected?

Of course this doesn’t compare to the number he infected when they forced nursing homes to let him in...:rolleyes:

[YVK]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/17/us/sheriffs-ignore-cuomo-executive-order-trnd/index.html

NY state limiting private residences to no more than 10 people. That’s a common sense reasonable number of relatives to have over for thanksgiving. No one needs more than 10 people for one holiday dinner.

Sheriffs around the state refuse to enforce this executive action from Emperor Cuomo.

Given its NY, I thought their magic number has been dropped to 7?


We have a restrictions on gathering limited to people who you live with in your home. Not 10, not 5, just who is with you anyway. So far till the 23d but likely to be extended through holidays.

This is in a state that has a full GOP control at every govt level, that resisted mandates for as long as they could, and that Trump just won by 21%. And that has very large extended families.

Funny thing is that, seeing how we're setting all kinds of records, daily cases, daily hospitalized, ICU use, and deaths, nobody seems to be complaining much. Common sense, eh?

[LorenzoS]

Given its NY, I thought their magic number has been dropped to 7?

The table can fit 10 chairs, but only 7 people can sit at a time.

[JAD]

We have a restrictions... Common sense, eh?

If it was common sense, you wouldn't need restrictions.

[DDTSGM]

If it was common sense, you wouldn't need restrictions.

Apparently you don't subscribe to the line of thought that I first saw on LF - common sense - so rare it should be a supper power.

Until recently I wasn't much worried. Both of my sons, however, were bitching heavily about the folks they worked with refusing to wear masks. They work at a paper mill. At latest count they tell me that two of their co-workers have died, at least one is in ICU, and numerous workers are off for the mandated two-weeks because they've tested positive. At this point everyone on the machines are working 12 to 16 hour shifts, and they are just about to the point of putting one machine off-line because of man power. One son is fearful that at that point the plant will be shutdown.

So, yeah, 'muh, rights' trumps everything may not be the best way to roll.

[TheNewbie]

We have a restrictions on gathering limited to people who you live with in your home. Not 10, not 5, just who is with you anyway. So far till the 23d but likely to be extended through holidays.

This is in a state that has a full GOP control at every govt level, that resisted mandates for as long as they could, and that Trump just won by 21%. And that has very large extended families.

Funny thing is that, seeing how we're setting all kinds of records, daily cases, daily hospitalized, ICU use, and deaths, nobody seems to be complaining much. Common sense, eh?


The GOP has been less than impressive during this time as well.


Do you all believe that people should be arrested for violating these orders?

[HeavyDuty]

The GOP has been less than impressive during this time as well.


Do you all believe that people should be arrested for violating these orders?

Not who you asked, but if deaths can be traced to violations of the orders hell yes. It’s criminal negligence.

[JAD]

Apparently you don't subscribe to the line of thought that I first saw on LF - common sense - so rare it should be a supper power.


I have noticed that many Lightfighter folks apparently have prodigious supper powers.

[blues]

I have noticed that many Lightfighter folks apparently have prodigious supper powers.

It would be good to have supper powers. It's hard to figure out what to have for dinner every day.

[TheNewbie]

Not who you asked, but if deaths can be traced to violations of the orders hell yes. It’s criminal negligence.

If the orders lead to someone committing suicide from desperation and loneliness, should someone be held criminally responsible ?

If someone knows they where around a covid person, gets the sniffles and goes out and infects someone, should they be held criminally responsible? How if they have allergies all the time, still responsible? Made a misdiagnosis and had covid instead of allergies.

Should the neighbors be held criminally responsible for not reporting a possible felony?


Should those who support the lockdown be forced to pay the wages of those who lost their jobs and businesses?


Should the people who enact lockdowns and those who support them be held criminally liable for people who couldn’t receive proper medical care due to covid restrictions?

Should you be put in jail for not wearing a mask? How if if you’re wearing it but not wearing it properly?





Should someone who is listening to loud music in their car, that causes a different driver to look over and thus have an accident be held criminally liable?


Where does it stop? Do you really want to live in that society?

[HeavyDuty]

If the orders lead to someone committing suicide from desperation and loneliness, should someone be held criminally responsible ?

If someone knows they where around a covid person, gets the sniffles and goes out and infects someone, should they be held criminally responsible? How if they have allergies all the time, still responsible? Made a misdiagnosis and had covid instead of allergies.

Should the neighbors be held criminally responsible for not reporting a possible felony?


Should those who support the lockdown be forced to pay the wages of those who lost their jobs and businesses?


Should the people who enact lockdowns and those who support them be held criminally liable for people who couldn’t receive proper medical care due to covid restrictions?

Should you be put in jail for not wearing a mask? How if if you’re wearing it but not wearing it properly?





Should someone who is listening to loud music in their car, that causes a different driver to look over and thus have an accident be held criminally liable?


Where does it stop? Do you really want to live in that society?

You are taking a simple issue of primary responsibility and stretching it to ridiculous lengths.

If I host a gathering in violation to public health guidelines and someone gets sick from COViD, I am negligent. It’s no different that an guest drowning in an unprotected pool on my property. Infection is a clearly foreseeable occurrence.

A hospice nurse friend who has cared for numerous COViD patients for their last few days posted this. I don’t completely agree, but it’s much closer to reality than not and it’s easier than typing it out.

63343

[Flamingo]

You are taking a simple issue of primary responsibility and stretching it to ridiculous lengths.

If I host a gathering in violation to public health guidelines and someone gets sick from COViD, I am negligent. It’s no different that an guest drowning in an unprotected pool on my property. Infection is a clearly foreseeable occurrence.

A hospice nurse friend who has cared for numerous COViD patients for their last few days posted this. I don’t completely agree, but it’s much closer to reality than not and it’s easier than typing it out.

63343


So we should eliminate everything that has Prop 65 warnings? s/ That stuff is KNOWN to cause cancer and should be eliminated and banned. It is negligent to allow anyone access to anything that could cause them to become ill in any way s/.

[HeavyDuty]

So we should eliminate everything that has Prop 65 warnings? s/ That stuff is KNOWN to cause cancer and should be eliminated and banned. It is negligent to allow anyone access to anything that could cause them to become ill in any way s/.

Are you shoving said things in someone else’s butt?

[ccmdfd]

It would be good to have supper powers. It's hard to figure out what to have for dinner every day.

Best internet post for the day!!

[RevolverRob]

So we should eliminate everything that has Prop 65 warnings? s/ That stuff is KNOWN to cause cancer and should be eliminated and banned.
KNOWN in the state of California to cause cancer.

This is the same state that doesn't actually KNOW what a 'ghost gun' or even a 'gun' is. So you know...not worried.

p/CHuDAgzsF8Y

___


It is negligent to allow anyone access to anything that could cause them to become ill in any way s/.

I know you're being sarcastic, but there can be negligence on the part. Someone who wantonly exposes another to harmful agents without regard for that person's safety can be quite guilty of negligence. Those mesothelioma lawsuits from asbestos exposure when chemical companies clearly knew about the danger is negligence. Here's the tricky part, if Uncle Joe knows he has coronavirus and goes to three family gatherings and gets Great Grandma Kamala sick and she dies - he could be guilty of negligence. Maybe Uncle Joe didn't know, but gets sick a few days later and gets tested. Uh-oh, Uncle Joe has the covids. But he doesn't tell anything and Great Gam-Gam Kamala dies. Could also be negligence on his part. If on the other hand, Uncle Joe, doesn't know? And never gets tested, presents, symptoms, or otherwise? How do you prove negligence?

Which brings us to the common sense portion of our program. There is a pretty damn deadly virus, particularly for the elderly and those of immune-compromised status. When do we most often see the elderly and those who might be compromised if not during holidays? As a result, common sense (which isn't common, but we've covered that) would dictate that maybe you shouldn't wander around this season and potentially expose yourself of others.

It might be inconvenient and unfair, to quote my late father, "Life isn't fair. Suck it up."

___

[TheNewbie]

You are taking a simple issue of primary responsibility and stretching it to ridiculous lengths.

If I host a gathering in violation to public health guidelines and someone gets sick from COViD, I am negligent. It’s no different that an guest drowning in an unprotected pool on my property. Infection is a clearly foreseeable occurrence.

A hospice nurse friend who has cared for numerous COViD patients for their last few days posted this. I don’t completely agree, but it’s much closer to reality than not and it’s easier than typing it out.

63343


Your chart can go both ways.


How will you prove that my party caused the infection? Forced testing?

Are you willing to have the government kill someone who refuses a test?

[HeavyDuty]

Your chart can go both ways.


How will you prove that my party caused the infection? Forced testing?

Are you willing to have the government kill someone who refuses a test?

Have I walked into a Monty Python skit?

Wear a fucking mask. Be ethical in your interactions with others.

It’s not hard.

[scw2]

I was gonna make a post about how odds of transmission likely go up in a non-linear fashion when group sizes increase. However, I think it's a waste of my time as people are going to believe what they want to believe, and in any case the politicians have repeatedly shown their hypocrisy in selective enforcement and their own blatant disregard for supposed best practices so they can't really complain about people ignoring their rules.

[FNFAN]

You are taking a simple issue of primary responsibility and stretching it to ridiculous lengths.

If I host a gathering in violation to public health guidelines and someone gets sick from COViD, I am negligent. It’s no different that an guest drowning in an unprotected pool on my property. Infection is a clearly foreseeable occurrence.

A hospice nurse friend who has cared for numerous COViD patients for their last few days posted this. I don’t completely agree, but it’s much closer to reality than not and it’s easier than typing it out.

63343

If people find that graphic compelling, I sure hope she doesn't move off of COVID to subjects like personal vehicle ownership, use of alcohol or ownership of firearms!

That graphic relies on the much used logic of, "if it saves just one child, we must ban...."

[TheNewbie]

Have I walked into a Monty Python skit?

Wear a fucking mask. Be ethical in your interactions with others.

It’s not hard.


You’re advocating for criminal punishment. I’m trying to see how far you would go.


The virus scares you, what you advocate scares me.


I do agree with you that we should be ethical in how we treat others.

[Zincwarrior]

It would be good to have supper powers. It's hard to figure out what to have for dinner every day.

Its hard to stay on a diet when these posts are around. :cool:

[HeavyDuty]

You’re advocating for criminal punishment. I’m trying to see how far you would go.


The virus scares you, what you advocate scares me.


I do agree with you that we should be ethical in how we treat others.

I’m advocating criminal prosecution in the case of criminal negligence, a clearly defined concept. If you hold a party and are aware people are sick, even if they are not diagnosed with COVID - you’re negligent. And the same applies with torts for civil negligence, too.

The virus does not scare me at all because I realize control is within my power.

[blues]

Its hard to stay on a diet when these posts are around. :cool:

Food for thought.

[CleverNickname]

I do agree with you that we should be ethical in how we treat others.

This is not directed at you in particular, but I really hate it when people say something is "ethical." To pick two extremes, the golden rule and "do as thou wilt" are both ethical systems, but they'll likely lead to radically different outcomes. Without defining what ethical system is being referred to, saying something is "ethical" is a meaningless statement.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Cuomo was on, raising the Covid levels in Erie County and some of Niagara do the increasing levels of infection. On Thanksgiving, he mentioned that after Thanksgiving in Canada - an earlier date - they had a large increase in cases due to their holiday.

Now that might offend some of you who think Covid is hoax but cured with HQC plus being a plot to control mankind.

[HeavyDuty]

This is not directed at you in particular, but I really hate it when people say something is "ethical." To pick two extremes, the golden rule and "do as thou wilt" are both ethical systems, but they'll likely lead to radically different outcomes. Without defining what ethical system is being referred to, saying something is "ethical" is a meaningless statement.

I’m a Pagan, and follow “an it harm none, do what thou wilt.” I think most people would follow something similar as their own ethics.

[HeavyDuty]

Cuomo was on, raising the Covid levels in Erie County and some of Niagara do the increasing levels of infection. On Thanksgiving, he mentioned that after Thanksgiving in Canada - an earlier date - they had a large increase in cases due to their holiday.

Now that might offend some of you who think Covid is hoax but cured with HQC plus being a plot to control mankind.

How *dare* you interject actual reality into an argument about personal liberty and the right to fuck over our neighbors?

[Flamingo]

Have I walked into a Monty Python skit?

Wear a fucking mask. Be ethical in your interactions with others.

It’s not hard.

I am concerned that we are entering an age of insane government restrictions and the resultant mental health issues that are occurring.


CDC:

Elevated levels of adverse mental health conditions, substance use, and suicidal ideation were reported by adults in the United States in June 2020. The prevalence of symptoms of anxiety disorder was approximately three times those reported in the second quarter of 2019 (25.5% versus 8.1%), and prevalence of depressive disorder was approximately four times that reported in the second quarter of 2019 (24.3% versus 6.5%) (2). However, given the methodological differences and potential unknown biases in survey designs, this analysis might not be directly comparable with data reported on anxiety and depression disorders in 2019 (2). Approximately one quarter of respondents reported symptoms of a TSRD related to the pandemic, and approximately one in 10 reported that they started or increased substance use because of COVID-19. Suicidal ideation was also elevated; approximately twice as many respondents reported serious consideration of suicide in the previous 30 days than did adults in the United States in 2018, referring to the previous 12 months (10.7% versus 4.3%) (6).

Mental health conditions are disproportionately affecting specific populations, especially young adults, Hispanic persons, black persons, essential workers, unpaid caregivers for adults, and those receiving treatment for preexisting psychiatric conditions. Unpaid caregivers for adults, many of whom are currently providing critical aid to persons at increased risk for severe illness from COVID-19, had a higher incidence of adverse mental and behavioral health conditions compared with others. Although unpaid caregivers of children were not evaluated in this study, approximately 39% of unpaid caregivers for adults shared a household with children (compared with 27% of other respondents). Caregiver workload, especially in multigenerational caregivers, should be considered for future assessment of mental health, given the findings of this report and hardships potentially faced by caregivers.

[HeavyDuty]

I am concerned that we are entering an age of insane government restrictions and the resultant mental health issues that are occurring.

I agree, but it’s because too many people can’t just nut up and do the logical and ethical thing. That’s why the government jumps in with both clay feet, which screws things up even more. (Sorry, CleverNickName - is there a better word for the concept?)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'm concerned that thousand of medical professionals, who swore to the Hippocratic oath to do no harm, have denied the curative powers of HCQ in order to disrespect Trump and let the leftists take control of the world. Chinese, Japanese, Indian, European, Korean, Taiwanese, Israeli medical professionals want you to die to make sure that DJT, DJTJ, Eric and Ivanka have to return to a life of rich luxury and/or establish medicare for all in the USA. I have medical professional relatives in Italy, they must be part of the plan of Dr. Evil for world control.

I do think the crisis has severe mental health effects but if we beat it and not through paranoid plots and denial, we can get past them.

[TheNewbie]

Cuomo was on, raising the Covid levels in Erie County and some of Niagara do the increasing levels of infection. On Thanksgiving, he mentioned that after Thanksgiving in Canada - an earlier date - they had a large increase in cases due to their holiday.

Now that might offend some of you who think Covid is hoax but cured with HQC plus being a plot to control mankind.


Are the significant numbers of people who think Covid is a hoax?

[HeavyDuty]

Are the significant numbers of people who think Covid is a hoax?

Where is BBI’s exploding head GIF?

[ccmdfd]

Food for thought.

Breakfast power!
63350

63351

[Bucky]

Are the significant numbers of people who think Covid is a hoax?

Maybe people think the virus is real, but the response is a hoax.

[DDTSGM]

I have noticed that many Lightfighter folks apparently have prodigious supper powers.

Well, I don't know where LF took it's name from, but the few times I was at Ft Ord when the 7th ID was there, I figured those Light Fighters did have super powers 1) to carry those humongous rucks and 2) to stomach the huge amounts of ibuprofen that I saw them ingesting.

I just assumed they either took the name from 7th ID or 10th Mountain.

[DDTSGM]

How *dare* you interject actual reality into an argument about personal liberty and the right to fuck over our neighbors?

You know, for a pagan, you don't seem to be half bad, I like the way you think.

BTW: pagan thing was sarcasm and probably triggering, but the rest, from the heart.

[DDTSGM]

I thought we'd already seen this:

63367

ETA: pulled off the trifecta three posts in a row.

[AKDoug]

I thought we'd already seen this:

63367

ETA: pulled off the trifecta three posts in a row. I keep seeing this and think.. no way you can piss this far so rock on no pants guy.

[DDTSGM]

I keep seeing this and think.. no way you can piss this far so rock on no pants guy.

Okay, remember back when you were 18.......

[YVK]

A darling of no mandates, no masks response Sweden has just banned gathering of more than 8 people.


Glad that ABBA is a quartet so they can still get on a stage and perform live for us.

[TGS]

So, to summarize:

Covid is still a hoax, jet fuel can't melt steel beams, PPE=tyranny, FEMA has secret death camps, DHS bought tons of ammo to execute citizens, Jade Helm 15 was for a hostile military takeover, the Fix NICS Act was designed to abolish the 2nd Amendment, water fluoridation is a communist plot, contrails from jets are actually streams of mind-control drugs being dumped on society, vaccines cause autism.

Got it.

These are all opinions, and I won't get into debating them. What isn't an opinion is what my wife is observing at work with regards to her investigations of covid spreading at workplaces, and the prevalence of covid spreading at workplaces who follow guidelines vs places who think it's a hoax and that masks are a symbol of tyranny. It turns out that when people think they're at risk of dying they tend to seek medical help and the vigor of their conspiracy theory dies out. So, contact tracing is pretty effective at finding out who/what/where/when/why, no forced tests or executions of people who refuse a test needed (I'm really trying to grasp the mental gymnastics on that one, but whatever).

[Bucky]

So, to summarize:

Covid is still a hoax, jet fuel can't melt steel beams, PPE=tyranny, FEMA has secret death camps, DHS bought tons of ammo to execute citizens, Jade Helm 15 was for a hostile military takeover, the Fix NICS Act was designed to abolish the 2nd Amendment, water fluoridation is a communist plot, contrails from jets are actually streams of mind-control drugs being dumped on society, vaccines cause autism.

Got it.

These are all opinions, and I won't get into debating them. What isn't an opinion is what my wife is observing at work with regards to her investigations of covid spreading at workplaces, and the prevalence of covid spreading at workplaces who follow guidelines vs places who think it's a hoax and that masks are a symbol of tyranny. It turns out that when people think they're at risk of dying they tend to seek medical help and the vigor of their conspiracy theory dies out. So, contact tracing is pretty effective at finding out who/what/where/when/why, no forced tests or executions of people who refuse a test needed (I'm really trying to grasp the mental gymnastics on that one, but whatever).


What if COVID is here to stay, like the flu, pneumonia, or the common cold? Is this how we live for the rest of our lives?

[Zincwarrior]

A darling of no mandates, no masks response Sweden has just banned gathering of more than 8 people.


Glad that ABBA is a quartet so they can still get on a stage and perform live for us.

One does not speak Its Name!

[TGS]

What if COVID is here to stay, like the flu, pneumonia, or the common cold? Is this how we live for the rest of our lives?

I don't think it's worthwhile to go down "what ifs", especially ones that aren't likely. I've heard of no indications that covid is here to stay for the rest of our lives. In the interest of not talking past each other, I'm not going to assume what "is this how we live" entails, as "this" can vary quite a bit from state to state. It even varies from my post to other overseas USG posts as well. I'm sure there are places that are going full retard, but the correct response to that is not absurdity on the opposite end of the spectrum. Likewise, I haven't seen any fervor in formal policy that we are not supposed to accept the fact that people will die and the virus killing people is simply a natural course that we cannot reverse no matter what we do......I don't think anyone is more witness to such realities than the people on the frontline against Covid (the medical community), and that is reflected in the policies they're developing as well as the vaccine they refuse to rush to the market because as any of my med brethren will join me in chorus of the creed we operate under: Do Know Harm, Do No Harm.

I also don't buy into the false equivalencies offered in this thread, such as this being the same appeal as "but if gun control saved just one child!". It's apples and oranges. My guns, and my self, nor the aggregate American gun owner, are responsible for a pandemic that has killed 250,000 Americans YTD where someone is simply asking you to prevent the spread of the virus so that our hospital systems don't get overloaded. I think more than the conspiracy/tin-foil/looney bin side of the coin, what disturbs me more about it is the indifference towards human life. The fact that someone's imaginary battle against tyranny in their head is manifested against PPE during the worlds biggest pandemic in 100 years and that their manifestation and need to make their defiant, valiant stand to prove they're the last true American on Earth is more important than taking minimally inconvenient, reasonable measures against the spread of the virus which HAS resulted in unnecessary deaths.....that's not the point of liberty. We should all still feel an obligation to our community to act in responsible manners, regardless of the fact that we have the option to be a piece of shit.

The idea that chest-thumping about how "I'm not afraid" and "ThIZ iS TyRANnY!!1!" can possibly more important than someone's life when it comes to donning PPE during a pandemic...now, that's just downright disgusting. As a fairly hedonistic person, I find that to be the epitome of malicious selfishness....

I realize that this observation is probably lost on the people that it applies to, and it likely only reinforces the manifestation in their head; I can only speculate what sort of damaged human being is a prerequisite to the "anti-mask movement". It's just an observation of mine that I'm sharing, I'm not necessarily trying to change anyone's mind as I understand that's a lost cause.

[TheNewbie]

So, to summarize:

Covid is still a hoax, jet fuel can't melt steel beams, PPE=tyranny, FEMA has secret death camps, DHS bought tons of ammo to execute citizens, Jade Helm 15 was for a hostile military takeover, the Fix NICS Act was designed to abolish the 2nd Amendment, water fluoridation is a communist plot, contrails from jets are actually streams of mind-control drugs being dumped on society, vaccines cause autism.

Got it.

These are all opinions, and I won't get into debating them. What isn't an opinion is what my wife is observing at work with regards to her investigations of covid spreading at workplaces, and the prevalence of covid spreading at workplaces who follow guidelines vs places who think it's a hoax and that masks are a symbol of tyranny. It turns out that when people think they're at risk of dying they tend to seek medical help and the vigor of their conspiracy theory dies out. So, contact tracing is pretty effective at finding out who/what/where/when/why, no forced tests or executions of people who refuse a test needed (I'm really trying to grasp the mental gymnastics on that one, but whatever).


Who believes it’s a hoax?

[HeavyDuty]

I don't think it's worthwhile to go down "what ifs", especially ones that aren't likely. I've heard of no indications that covid is here to stay for the rest of our lives. In the interest of not talking past each other, I'm not going to assume what "is this how we live" entails, as "this" can vary quite a bit from state to state. It even varies from my post to other overseas USG posts as well. I'm sure there are places that are going full retard, but the correct response to that is not absurdity on the opposite end of the spectrum. Likewise, I haven't seen any fervor in formal policy that we are not supposed to accept the fact that people will die and the virus killing people is simply a natural course that we cannot reverse no matter what we do......I don't think anyone is more witness to such realities than the people on the frontline against Covid (the medical community), and that is reflected in the policies they're developing as well as the vaccine they refuse to rush to the market because as any of my med brethren will join me in chorus of the creed we operate under: Do Know Harm, Do No Harm.

I also don't buy into the false equivalencies offered in this thread, such as this being the same appeal as "but if gun control saved just one child!". It's apples and oranges. My guns, and my self, nor the aggregate American gun owner, are responsible for a pandemic that has killed 250,000 Americans YTD where someone is simply asking you to prevent the spread of the virus so that our hospital systems don't get overloaded. I think more than the conspiracy/tin-foil/looney bin side of the coin, what disturbs me more about it is the indifference towards human life. The fact that someone's imaginary battle against tyranny in their head is manifested against PPE during the worlds biggest pandemic in 100 years and that their manifestation and need to make their defiant, valiant stand to prove they're the last true American on Earth is more important than taking minimally inconvenient, reasonable measures against the spread of the virus which HAS resulted in unnecessary deaths.....that's not the point of liberty. We should all still feel an obligation to our community to act in responsible manners, regardless of the fact that we have the option to be a piece of shit.

The idea that chest-thumping about how "I'm not afraid" and "ThIZ iS TyRANnY!!1!" can possibly more important than someone's life when it comes to donning PPE during a pandemic...now, that's just downright disgusting. As a fairly hedonistic person, I find that to be the epitome of malicious selfishness....

I realize that this observation is probably lost on the people that it applies to, and it likely only reinforces the manifestation in their head; I can only speculate what sort of damaged human being is a prerequisite to the "anti-mask movement". It's just an observation of mine that I'm sharing, I'm not necessarily trying to change anyone's mind as I understand that's a lost cause.

I’m signing up additional accounts just so I can like this more than once. Bullseye.

[HeavyDuty]

Who believes it’s a hoax?

Ok, fess up. You’re actually an AI bot project for some Aggie, right?

[TheNewbie]

Ok, fess up. You’re actually an AI bot project for some Aggie, right?


Por supesto. Yo soy.


The man made a serious charge. I’m asking who claims that the virus is a hoax. I have seen no one on this forum do so.

[DDTSGM]

Por supesto. Yo soy.


The man made a serious charge. I’m asking who claims that the virus is a hoax. I have seen no one on this forum do so.

I don't recall anyone limiting to this forum. Google search revealed:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-hoax/fact-check-the-coronavirus-pandemic-is-not-a-hoax-or-a-conspiracy-to-control-the-general-public-idUSKBN25G2KM

https://kutv.com/news/local/they-say-its-all-a-hoax-nurses-describe-what-its-like-treating-covid-patients-in-utah

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/22/860947708/1-in-5-in-england-think-the-coronavirus-is-a-hoax okay, UK, but...

Don't be obtuse.

[TGS]

Por supesto. Yo soy.


The man made a serious charge. I’m asking who claims that the virus is a hoax. I have seen no one on this forum do so.

Dan covered this pretty well with the last three words of his post, not to mention many of those same ideas he linked to being parroted or insinuated in the massive 600+ Covid thread (maybe others as well, I can't keep track); and, the entire premise of the anti-mask movement boiling down to the various roots of the hoaxer conspiracies or general denial of that science thing. If you choose to not see it/notice it, I can't help you with answering your question.

[TheNewbie]

Dan covered this pretty well with the last three words of his post, not to mention many of those same ideas he linked to being parroted or insinuated in the massive 600+ Covid thread (maybe others as well, I can't keep track); and, not to mention the entire premise of the anti-mask movement boiling down to the various roots of the hoaxer conspiracies or general denial of that science thing. If you choose to not see it/notice it, I can't help you with answering your question.


You actually did answer me. Thank you


We are not going to agree, but at least we have clarity.

For your information, you may not be aware of this if you follow mainstream sources or don’t talk to opposite views on this issue often, most people I know don’t believe the virus is a hoax. Yes, that includes those that are more concerned by the lock downs and mandates than by the virus.

We find the lockdowns and mandates to be dangerous and inhumane. Just as you find us that oppose them to be the same.

[UNK]

Why not let each individual decide whats best for them?
Therefore if you feel you have a legitimate reason to not go in to work or wherever you dont go. Those who wish to work or whatever do so in compliance with whatever guidelines are set forth.
Seems the problem is solved.
Not everyone is at the same level of risk from catching the virus.
The exceptions would be those incapable of making the decision such as kids at school or facilities where elderly are housed.
Personally if I had someone hospitialized from the virus Id want the option to suit up and be in the hospital with them. But my experience is that no one should be left alone in a hospital. The nursing staff are overloaded and someone needs to be there to monitor their care and well being.
I cant imagine the horror of someone passing and family not allowed to be there. We are not talking ebola here.

[TheNewbie]

Why not let each individual decide whats best for them?
Therefore if you feel you have a legitimate reason to not go in to work or wherever you dont go. Those who wish to work or whatever do so in compliance with whatever guidelines are set forth.
Seems the problem is solved.
Not everyone is at the same level of risk from catching the virus.
The exceptions would be those incapable of making the decision such as kids at school or facilities where elderly are housed.
Personally if I had someone hospitialized from the virus Id want the option to suit up and be in the hospital with them. But my experience is that no one should be left alone in a hospital. The nursing staff are overloaded and someone needs to be there to monitor their care and well being.
I cant imagine the horror of someone passing and family not allowed to be there. We are not talking ebola here.

This!

Because even if UNK and I disagree about something, and I am sure we would with all the topics in the world, we can live and let live.

[HeavyDuty]

This!

Because even if UNK and I disagree about something, and I am sure we would with all the topics in the world, we can live and let live.

You’re agreeing to follow guidelines?

[YVK]

Personally if I had someone hospitialized from the virus Id want the option to suit up and be in the hospital with them. But my experience is that no one should be left alone in a hospital. The nursing staff are overloaded and someone needs to be there to monitor their care and well being.


The problem is that a hospitalized person is a known risk that I and my staff have to manage. You are an additional unknown risk and any additional risk for us to deal with is the last thing we need. Logistics of ascertaining what you are to us from risk standpoint doesn't seem realistic.

I agree with your general sentiment though. Hospitalized people not seeing their loved ones, and the other way around, is just horrible. I have been making phone calls to get exceptions for visitation policy throughout the pandemic, and I do try to spend just a touch more time with my inpatients. These are trying times for all of us for sure.

[TGS]

Why not let each individual decide whats best for them?
Therefore if you feel you have a legitimate reason to not go in to work or wherever you dont go. Those who wish to work or whatever do so in compliance with whatever guidelines are set forth.
Seems the problem is solved.
Not everyone is at the same level of risk from catching the virus.

Imagine a 20'x20' box that is filled with bowling pins, and over a given period of time you MUST yeet that bowling ball through the box (you have to hit the pharmacy, you have to go to work, you have to go grocery shopping etc). However, the goal is to hit as few pins as possible because every time you hit a bowling pin the chance of something bad happens increases...we know that you can't completely eliminate hitting any pins at all, but the goal is to hit as few as possible and still get by. So you think, "Hmm, do I really need to bowl today? Ok, well I do. Shit. Okay, let's bowl when there tends to be less pins".

And then out of left field, a bunch of people yelling about "muh rightz! Tyranny! I'm not at risk so FUCK YOU, you can't tell me what to do, cash'me ousside howbowdat!" come out of left field and fill up your box with extra bowling pins for what is really no good reason, other than they have proclaimed that this is their god given right. They're not actually doing anything useful....they don't have a real reason to be in that box other than prove to everyone how badass they are that they can fill up your box and there's nothing you can do about it. After your box, they take their bowling pins plus an extra pin or two that they picked up from your box and go over to another box where someone else has to bowl. So, you know they've probably already been to multiple boxes that week, and man.....they're really stackin' them pins in there. "Well, fuck" you exclaim under your breath.

And then, on top of that, instead of using mini bowling pins that you have a lower chance of hitting (instead of wearing a mask, that is), they purposely use nice, big fat hefty jumbo bowling pins from a pool playset that happen to bounce around a lot when they get hit...

Moral of the story: it's not about you.

_______________________________________________


So, I'm not sure how in November this still isn't understood. I'm not sure why I feel the need to explain this either, because by November of 2020 there's no way this attitude persists for any reason other than willful ignorance.

Everyone is going to have to go "out" at some point and risk exposure. That's obviously part of life.....some, more than others....we get that. As an example, I'm still flying on airplanes because I have to for work in the cases that the work is deemed mission critical. I'm still going out into public in the hardest hit province of a poor south Asian country where I'm basically fucked if I get covid due to lack of healthcare infrastructure, because there's still a mission that the USG must accomplish and I have to ensure the safety and security of those personnel. Similarly, every time we go out to execute our mission the chances of the entire installation getting the kabash comes into play, as one of us could spread it to the other staff. So, life goes on, we do what we can, yada yada.

However, when you decide that the virus doesn't apply to you, you are still making it more risky for others as even average risk and higher risk people will need to go out into riskier places with some frequency. What wouldn't be reasonable is if I decided "Nah, fuck it, I'm a magic fucking unicorn and I know that I'm lower risk and if I get the virus, fuck it, it won't hurt me anyway because I'm superman", and I use that reasoning as a justification to go expose myself unnecessarily by going out into public or flying more than actually needed (need vs want distinction here). By doing that, I'd only be proving that I'm an asshole because I can still catch the virus and give it to other people that I interact with, regardless of the fact that I've self-declared that I'm not at risk of getting the virus and I'll be fine even if I do.....because superpowers, or some shit.

[UNK]

The problem is that a hospitalized person is a known risk that I and my staff have to manage. You are an additional unknown risk and any additional risk for us to deal with is the last thing we need. Logistics of ascertaining what you are to us from risk standpoint doesn't seem realistic.

I agree with your general sentiment though. Hospitalized people not seeing their loved ones, and the other way around, is just horrible. I have been making phone calls to get exceptions for visitation policy throughout the pandemic, and I do try to spend just a touch more time with my inpatients. These are trying times for all of us for sure.

Man Im with you. My wife is a telemetry nurse. I get both sides of it. I took care of a parent, by myself and raising two kids, with in home health care assisting only when I had to work for over a year because of alzheimers. This included multiple multi day stays in the hospital with her and all the DR visits. I get that some family members hit the hospital and are stupid to deal with. Im not one of those people.

[UNK]

Imagine a 20'x20' box that is filled with bowling pins, and over a given period of time you MUST yeet that bowling ball through the box (you have to hit the pharmacy, you have to go to work, you have to go grocery shopping etc). However, the goal is to hit as few pins as possible because every time you hit a bowling pin the chance of something bad happens increases...we know that you can't completely eliminate hitting any pins at all, but the goal is to hit as few as possible and still get by. So you think, "Hmm, do I really need to bowl today? Ok, well I do. Shit. Okay, let's bowl when there tends to be less pins".

And then out of left field, a bunch of people yelling about "muh rightz! Tyranny! I'm not at risk so FUCK YOU, you can't tell me what to do, cash'me ousside howbowdat!" come out of left field and fill up your box with extra bowling pins for what is really no good reason, other than they have proclaimed that this is their god given right. They're not actually doing anything useful....they don't have a real reason to be in that box other than prove to everyone how badass they are that they can fill up your box and there's nothing you can do about it. After your box, they take their bowling pins plus an extra pin or two that they picked up from your box and go over to another box where someone else has to bowl. So, you know they've probably already been to multiple boxes that week, and man.....they're really stackin' them pins in there. "Well, fuck" you exclaim under your breath.

And then, on top of that, instead of using mini bowling pins that you have a lower chance of hitting (instead of wearing a mask, that is), they purposely use nice, big fat hefty jumbo bowling pins from a pool playset that happen to bounce around a lot when they get hit...

Moral of the story: it's not about you.

_______________________________________________


So, I'm not sure how in November this still isn't understood. I'm not sure why I feel the need to explain this either, because by November of 2020 there's no way this attitude persists for any reason other than willful ignorance.

Everyone is going to have to go "out" at some point and risk exposure. That's obviously part of life.....some, more than others....we get that. As an example, I'm still flying on airplanes because I have to for work in the cases that the work is deemed mission critical. I'm still going out into public in the hardest hit province of a poor south Asian country where I'm basically fucked if I get covid due to lack of healthcare infrastructure, because there's still a mission that the USG must accomplish and I have to ensure the safety and security of those personnel. Similarly, every time we go out to execute our mission the chances of the entire installation getting the kabash comes into play, as one of us could spread it to the other staff. So, life goes on, we do what we can, yada yada.

However, when you decide that the virus doesn't apply to you, you are still making it more risky for others as even average risk and higher risk people will need to go out into riskier places with some frequency. What wouldn't be reasonable is if I decided "Nah, fuck it, I'm a magic fucking unicorn and I know that I'm lower risk and if I get the virus, fuck it, it won't hurt me anyway because I'm superman", and I use that reasoning as a justification to go expose myself unnecessarily by going out into public or flying more than actually needed (need vs want distinction here). By doing that, I'd only be proving that I'm an asshole because I can still catch the virus and give it to other people that I interact with, regardless of the fact that I've self-declared that I'm not at risk of getting the virus and I'll be fine even if I do.....because superpowers, or some shit.

Ok I had to read this several times so lets clear up a few possible misconceptions.
Im not advocating for muh rights. Im not a super hero complex type guy.
Risk managment is part of everyday life. A lot of people are pretty adept at it.
Almost everywhere you need to go they will bring whatever you want out to your car. Pay in advance pop the trunk remotely and go home.
Both of my kids have worked through covid and attended school. Sometimes in class sometimes remotely.
My wife is a Nurse she hasnt missed a single day at work plus overtime.
Ive got a family member who I dont want to go out anywhere because she is health and age compromised.
I know a lot of people who have worked continually through covid and I only know of 1 person who has contracted it. I have no idea of any health issues he may have had but he died during intubation. He never woke up from the anesthesia. 50 and has three kids at home.
So yes I think I get it. I dont think a compete lockdown is the best choice but wtf do I know Im an electrician.
And I havent not gone anywhere I wanted to go including around family members who have traveled. Actually I went to Florida during covid via airplane for a vacation. And yes there were tons of people in the airports.

[YVK]

Man Im with you. My wife is a telemetry nurse. I get both sides of it. I took care of a parent, by myself and raising two kids, with in home health care assisting only when I had to work for over a year because of alzheimers. I get that some family members hit the hospital and are stupid to deal with. Im not one of those people.

I am a full believer in having family present as much as possible. Many, many years ago, in my other professional life, I worked in a system that didn't allow visitors. Pretty much none on the floors, but especially in critical care units where I started my career. There were months when our mortality was 20% and I was the last human being those people saw or spoke to, on my every shift. I still get triggered when I remember those times.
But right now, with state numbers 10-20 times higher than in spring and test positivity rate of 25%, we can't risk our staff picking up rona from visitors.
Best of luck to your wife, my tele nurses are really stressed now as tele beds get appropriated for icu patients who don't need vents. Our intensivists have coined a new term, a pretensive care unit. ICU patients cared for by ICU docs on whatever unit they can put them on.

[TheNewbie]

Imagine a 20'x20' box that is filled with bowling pins, and over a given period of time you MUST yeet that bowling ball through the box (you have to hit the pharmacy, you have to go to work, you have to go grocery shopping etc). However, the goal is to hit as few pins as possible because every time you hit a bowling pin the chance of something bad happens increases...we know that you can't completely eliminate hitting any pins at all, but the goal is to hit as few as possible and still get by. So you think, "Hmm, do I really need to bowl today? Ok, well I do. Shit. Okay, let's bowl when there tends to be less pins".

And then out of left field, a bunch of people yelling about "muh rightz! Tyranny! I'm not at risk so FUCK YOU, you can't tell me what to do, cash'me ousside howbowdat!" come out of left field and fill up your box with extra bowling pins for what is really no good reason, other than they have proclaimed that this is their god given right. They're not actually doing anything useful....they don't have a real reason to be in that box other than prove to everyone how badass they are that they can fill up your box and there's nothing you can do about it. After your box, they take their bowling pins plus an extra pin or two that they picked up from your box and go over to another box where someone else has to bowl. So, you know they've probably already been to multiple boxes that week, and man.....they're really stackin' them pins in there. "Well, fuck" you exclaim under your breath.

And then, on top of that, instead of using mini bowling pins that you have a lower chance of hitting (instead of wearing a mask, that is), they purposely use nice, big fat hefty jumbo bowling pins from a pool playset that happen to bounce around a lot when they get hit...

Moral of the story: it's not about you.

_______________________________________________


So, I'm not sure how in November this still isn't understood. I'm not sure why I feel the need to explain this either, because by November of 2020 there's no way this attitude persists for any reason other than willful ignorance.

Everyone is going to have to go "out" at some point and risk exposure. That's obviously part of life.....some, more than others....we get that. As an example, I'm still flying on airplanes because I have to for work in the cases that the work is deemed mission critical. I'm still going out into public in the hardest hit province of a poor south Asian country where I'm basically fucked if I get covid due to lack of healthcare infrastructure, because there's still a mission that the USG must accomplish and I have to ensure the safety and security of those personnel. Similarly, every time we go out to execute our mission the chances of the entire installation getting the kabash comes into play, as one of us could spread it to the other staff. So, life goes on, we do what we can, yada yada.

However, when you decide that the virus doesn't apply to you, you are still making it more risky for others as even average risk and higher risk people will need to go out into riskier places with some frequency. What wouldn't be reasonable is if I decided "Nah, fuck it, I'm a magic fucking unicorn and I know that I'm lower risk and if I get the virus, fuck it, it won't hurt me anyway because I'm superman", and I use that reasoning as a justification to go expose myself unnecessarily by going out into public or flying more than actually needed (need vs want distinction here). By doing that, I'd only be proving that I'm an asshole because I can still catch the virus and give it to other people that I interact with, regardless of the fact that I've self-declared that I'm not at risk of getting the virus and I'll be fine even if I do.....because superpowers, or some shit.



You are right, it's not about you or me. It's about something much bigger.


Life is full of risk, I doubt any of us here have special protection or super powers. While you attempt to discredit people with "muh ritz!", you fail to realize that other people may have scientific, rational, and compassionate basis for their beliefs. Even if they differ with yours. Same goes for me.


I don't think you want to harm society, but people like you, who make decisions base on fear of the virus vs decisions based on the consequences of the lockdown, do cause harm. That is my opinion, you clearly differ. While liberty is a serious issue that should not be laughed at, it's more than just liberty. It's social health, economic health (which goes beyond being able to buy toys), other forms of medical health.



My wife spent years as a doctor working in a crappy socialized medical system. My best friend's dad is a doctor. They think different than you do. It's possible they could be wrong, they are not gods. It's also possible that you and those you listen to could be wrong. Remember, the attempt to suppress doctors was one sided.


You went to Asia, I went to Mexico and visited one of the poorest areas in DF. Now maybe I shouldn't have because we then went to Chalco and I ate fresh cheese and got freshly sick.

[TGS]

You are right, it's not about you or me. It's about something much bigger.


Life is full of risk, I doubt any of us here have special protection or super powers. While you attempt to discredit people with "muh ritz!", you fail to realize that other people may have scientific, rational, and compassionate basis for their beliefs. Even if they differ with yours. Same goes for me.


I don't think you want to harm society, but people like you, who make decisions base on fear of the virus vs decisions based on the consequences of the lockdown, do cause harm. That is my opinion, you clearly differ. While liberty is a serious issue that should not be laughed at, it's more than just liberty. It's social health, economic health (which goes beyond being able to buy toys), other forms of medical health.



My wife spent years as a doctor working in a crappy socialized medical system. My best friend's dad is a doctor. They think different than you do. It's possible they could be wrong, they are not gods. It's also possible that you and those you listen to could be wrong. Remember, the attempt to suppress doctors was one sided.


You went to Asia, I went to Mexico and visited one of the poorest areas in DF. Now maybe I shouldn't have because we then went to Chalco and I ate fresh cheese and got freshly sick.

That all sounds reasonable, but I'm not seeing that stuff clearly laid out in a rational manner based on evidence from the medical community...rather, rogue doctors who made broad statements based on no evidence which amounted to gross negligence and had their ability to practice pulled by the state. That's not suppression. This idea that some monolithic entity is suppressing doctors is ridiculous conspiracy theory, so you're kind of losing my respect for your POV off the bat.

Limiting gatherings on both total size and to family "pods", handwashing and surface decon, maintaining 6-10 feet of distance/partial openings, the wearing of masks and other PPE, contact tracing, hierarchal isolation procedures based on exposure estimated by contact time/intimacy/PPE, etc are actions that the medical community came up with, practice in their daily routine, and are scientifically supported. It's laughable that this is more harmful than letting the virus run rampant, or as opposed to whatever it is you're in favor of that you dance around and won't actually come out and state what should be done instead.

There's no evidence to say that letting the virus run rampant and kill untold scores of people would result in less harm to public health and the economy than implementing isolation procedures.

[TheNewbie]

That all sounds reasonable, but I'm not seeing that stuff clearly laid out in a rational manner based on evidence from the medical community...rather, rogue doctors who made broad statements based on no evidence which amounted to gross negligence and had their ability to practice pulled by the state. That's not suppression. This idea that some monolithic entity is suppressing doctors is ridiculous conspiracy theory, so you're kind of losing my respect for your POV off the bat.

Limiting gatherings on both total size and to family "pods", handwashing and surface decon, maintaining 6-10 feet of distance/partial openings, the wearing of masks and other PPE, contact tracing, hierarchal isolation procedures based on exposure estimated by contact time/intimacy/PPE, etc are actions that the medical community came up with, practice in their daily routine, and are scientifically supported. It's laughable that this is more harmful than letting the virus run rampant, or as opposed to whatever it is you're in favor of that you dance around and won't actually come out and state what should be done instead.

There's no evidence to say that letting the virus run rampant and kill untold scores of people would result in less harm to public health and the economy than implementing isolation procedures.



“Rogue” doctors does not mean wrong doctors. The removal of these doctors from FB and YouTube is outright suppression. It should concern everyone, even if you disagree with them. Thousands upon thousands of doctors are rogue by your standards.


What do I think should be done? Society opened up, people allowed to do as they please for the most part, sick and vulnerable protected, and effective medication made widely available.


The virus should not be allowed to run rampart, but neither should fear.

[Ed L]

I also don't buy into the false equivalencies offered in this thread, such as this being the same appeal as "but if gun control saved just one child!". It's apples and oranges. My guns, and my self, nor the aggregate American gun owner, are responsible for a pandemic that has killed 250,000 Americans YTD where someone is simply asking you to prevent the spread of the virus so that our hospital systems don't get overloaded.

I agree with your point, but the anti-gun argument of trying to "treat firearms as a public health crisis" has a lot of people worried.

Still, I have spent tens of thousands of man-hours around people with guns without being shot (if you count every hour that I spent around an individual with a gun as a man-hour). But at my age and with my health vulnerabilities I would probably be toast if I spent a very short time around someone with Covid if I didn't have PPE on (and I am not keen to try it with PPE). Covid has no practical use (other than a biologic weapon), and is not protected by the constitution.

[Zincwarrior]

US passes 2,000 deaths for first time since May.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/526833-us-passes-2000-coronavirus-deaths-in-a-day-for-first-time-since-may

[UNK]

I am a full believer in having family present as much as possible. Many, many years ago, in my other professional life, I worked in a system that didn't allow visitors. Pretty much none on the floors, but especially in critical care units where I started my career. There were months when our mortality was 20% and I was the last human being those people saw or spoke to, on my every shift. I still get triggered when I remember those times.
But right now, with state numbers 10-20 times higher than in spring and test positivity rate of 25%, we can't risk our staff picking up rona from visitors.
Best of luck to your wife, my tele nurses are really stressed now as tele beds get appropriated for icu patients who don't need vents. Our intensivists have coined a new term, a pretensive care unit. ICU patients cared for by ICU docs on whatever unit they can put them on.

I discussed the same thing with my wife. She sternly informed me that would not be tolerated. Nurses 🙄😍
I have learned most people cant actually relate accurately to something devastating unless they actually pass through it so I wont pretend to understand your situation, merely to offer my condolences, wish you good health and safe passage.

[UNK]

US passes 2,000 deaths for first time since May.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/526833-us-passes-2000-coronavirus-deaths-in-a-day-for-first-time-since-may

It would help if everybody had discussions with the complete info posted.
I understand its easier to just post something and say there you are.

People die every year from flu in spite of the flu shot being widely available. Some years quite a few more than others. The flu shot does not always inoculate accurately against the flu thats prevalent that year.
Secondly the CDC has given great leeway in how covid is reported. I know from a very reliable source of a gunshot victim locally being reported as covid death. I doubt that is an isolated event. Since CDC has not compiled the numbers except as an estimate of flu deaths for the last two years I cant help but wonder how we have such exact numbers now on a daily basis.
So how did we get to the point we are so unprepared for such an event when its been predicted to happen for years.
For the people who point to DJT as the problem I dont see how anyone can be so disingenuous. I recall a press conference whe Fauci said Trump had carried out every recommendation that had been put forth. Didnt he in advance of science demand a shutdown of International travel? And was condemmed as A racist for that act?
Wake up the press is manipulating you either right or left and has people at each others throats.
Please note im not advocating for muh rights or downplaying the significance of the event. Just expressing some concerns about how its being reported. Its going to be years before this can be accurately analyzed and conclusions drawn.
And before I get the demands to prove my points try doing some research.

[Zincwarrior]

A very interesting viewpoint.

[HeavyDuty]

...Secondly the CDC has given great leeway in how covid is reported. I know from a very reliable source of a gunshot victim locally being reported as covid death. I doubt that is an isolated event. Since CDC has not compiled the numbers except as an estimate of flu deaths for the last two years I cant help but wonder how we have such exact numbers now on a daily basis...

Every time I hear this argument I grit my teeth because they are usually discounting or ignoring comorbidities.

My late wife was ill, but very stable with numerous well managed serious medical issues including ESRD and a immunodeficiency. She contracted influenza from a family member who attended a baby shower despite being sick, developed pneumonia and died.

If she wasn’t immunodeficient or ESRD, would she have died from the flu?

Complications arising from pneumonia was the proximate cause of her death, just like complications arising from COViD are the proximate cause of death for the vast majority of people who have been tallied as being COViD victims.

[UNK]

Every time I hear this argument I grit my teeth because they are usually discounting or ignoring comorbidities.

My late wife was ill, but very stable with numerous well managed serious medical issues including ESRD and a immunodeficiency. She contracted influenza from a family member who attended a baby shower despite being sick, developed pneumonia and died.

If she wasn’t immunodeficient or ESRD, would she have died from the flu?

Complications arising from pneumonia was the proximate cause of her death, just like complications arising from COViD are the proximate cause of death for the vast majority of people who have been tallied as being COViD victims.

First off I want to offer my condolences on the tragic passing of your wife. Secondly because this is such a personal matter to you Im not going to make arguments. Your conclusions are yours and I respect that.

[HeavyDuty]

First off I want to offer my condolences on the tragic passing of your wife. Secondly because this is such a personal matter to you Im not going to make arguments. Your conclusions are yours and I respect that.

I didn’t bring it up as a nuclear option, but thank you. It’s been over five years.

I’m trying to stress that proximate cause - or as I used to say when I was teaching practical negligence to new underwriters the “but for” concept - points clearly to a COViD as being the cause of the vast majority of these deaths.

I’m willing to bet that COViD is in the second or third position of the victims death certificates, such as sepsis arising from MOF arising from COViD (I ain’t a doc but have reviewed enough death certs to see patterns.) “But for” COViD the deceased wouldn’t have developed multiple organ failure leading to sepsis.

[TGS]

I didn’t bring it up as a nuclear option, but thank you. It’s been over five years.

I’m trying to stress that proximate cause - or as I used to say when I was teaching practical negligence to new underwriters the “but for” concept - points clearly to a COViD as being the cause of the vast majority of these deaths.

I’m willing to bet that COViD is in the second or third position of the victims death certificates, such as sepsis arising from MOF arising from COViD (I ain’t a doc but have reviewed enough death certs to see patterns.) “But for” COViD the deceased wouldn’t have developed multiple organ failure leading to sepsis.

This is a solid point. To add on to that, what we learned from so many places (initially northern Italy) is that covid overwhelming hospitals causes a butterfly effect, as people with "routine" medical maladies who in any normal year could be effectively treated are now at a greatly increased risk of dying if not completely SOL. So, it's not just that more covid causes exponentially increased covid deaths.....it causes exponentially increased deaths from everything else, too, as medical care becomes limited or in some cases non-existent (see Italy where at one point everyone over a certain age or presenting with certain comorbidities was simply given palliative care).

Allowing those hospitals to be further overwhelmed would not result in a healthier economy or public. It would be completely disastrous.

[UNK]

I didn’t bring it up as a nuclear option, but thank you. It’s been over five years.

I’m trying to stress that proximate cause - or as I used to say when I was teaching practical negligence to new underwriters the “but for” concept - points clearly to a COViD as being the cause of the vast majority of these deaths.

I’m willing to bet that COViD is in the second or third position of the victims death certificates, such as sepsis arising from MOF arising from COViD (I ain’t a doc but have reviewed enough death certs to see patterns.) “But for” COViD the deceased wouldn’t have developed multiple organ failure leading to sepsis.

I cant discuss it without coming across as callus so I prefer not to.

[NH Shooter]

No doubt this virus is something not to be messed with. Also keep in mind there are members of this forum who have been deeply and personally impacted by it. Dismissal of its seriousness is truly an insult to those who have been impacted.

At the same time, so many of the state government guidelines border on absurd. Here's my experience;

Where we live in NH, it's 203 miles from our house to our daughter and son in-law's house in NY. Because NH is not contiguous with NY, special travel requirements apply;


Must have a Covid test performed within 72 hours before arriving in NY (and of course be clear)
Must take second test four days after arriving in NY and quarantine until the second test shows clear
Fill out a special travel document (https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2020/11/covid-19_travel_form.pdfhttp://) and have it with you before coming to NY

Bear in mind someone can drive to the same NY location from Pittsburgh, PA which is 440 miles away, with no such requirements.

My wife went to visit our daughter and family this weekend. She had the test done (was negative) and had her "paperwork" in order just in case she had to pass an Emperor Cuomo Storm Trooper check point. She just called and said there were none.

Will Thanksgiving or Christmas be any different? Will the NYS Troopers aggressively pull over cars with NH plates during the holidays? No way to tell, be we will do our test and have ze paperwork in order.

[HeavyDuty]

No doubt this virus is something not to be messed with. Also keep in mind there are members of this forum who have been deeply and personally impacted by it. Dismissal of its seriousness is truly an insult to those who have been impacted.

At the same time, so many of the state government guidelines border on absurd. Here's my experience;

Where we live in NH, it's 203 miles from our house to our daughter and son in-law's house in NY. Because NH is not contiguous with NY, special travel requirements apply;


Must have a Covid test performed within 72 hours before arriving in NY (and of course be clear)
Must take second test four days after arriving in NY and quarantine until the second test shows clear
Fill out a special travel document (https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2020/11/covid-19_travel_form.pdfhttp://) and have it with you before coming to NY

Bear in mind someone can drive to the same NY location from Pittsburgh, PA which is 440 miles away, with no such requirements.

My wife went to visit our daughter and family this weekend. She had the test done (was negative) and had her "paperwork" in order just in case she had to pass an Emperor Cuomo Storm Trooper check point. She just called and said there were none.

Will Thanksgiving or Christmas be any different? Will the NYS Troopers aggressively pull over cars with NH plates during the holidays? No way to tell, be we will do our test and have ze paperwork in order.


I’ll let you know how it goes tomorrow on the Throughway...

[blues]

I'm rattin' all you bastids out. ;)

[Det1397]

https://nypost.com/2020/11/20/company-makes-window-stickers-of-cuomo-watching-over-your-thanksgiving/

[Bucky]

Traveling across state lines for Thanksgiving...

Hmm...

https://www.corvsport.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Corvsport.com-3.png

[Wondering Beard]

Soon to be popular in NY and California?


https://i1.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2020/11/Screen-Shot-2020-11-20-at-10.43.30-AM.png?resize=600%2C398&ssl=1

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We just ordered take out dinner from the local inn we used to frequent. Read an article about the risks of restaurants and they are substantial. Haven't been in one since a new Polish restaurant opened a few months ago. Went at an off rush time and the tables were well space but being in our 70's, just being cautious.

My local gym just closed shut and is laying off folks. Quite sad.

[HeavyDuty]

I ended up taking the southern I-80 route home yesterday instead of I-90. I was waiting to get pounced on by a NY trooper during my short Cuomostan segment.

The roads were full of college students on their way home.

[blues]

I ended up taking the southern I-80 route home yesterday instead of I-90. I was waiting to get pounced on by a NY trooper during my short Cuomostan segment.

The roads were full of college students on their way home.

https://cdn.flickeringmyth.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/snake-plissken_escape-from-new-york_gallery_5df142439b447-600x400.jpg

"Shake a leg. Cuomo's around here somewhere. I smell a rat!"

[Wise_A]

Let me answer this as carefully as I can...My agency is not enforcing the Thanksgiving restrictions. We're not about to go knocking on people's doors on the holiday to break up their gatherings. We're not encouraging the "inform on your neighbor" mindset. We're not going to allow ourselves to be used as tools of harassment. Every car we send to deal with 11 or 12 people at a Thanksgiving dinner represents the potential for delaying immediate, lifesaving emergency services. One or two minutes can mean the difference between life or death for a baby in need of CPR, or a person contemplating suicide.

People should take common-sense precautions and exercise due diligence.

[Bart Carter]

I hope this isn't catching. Nevada governor just announced 10 person limit for Thanksgiving dinners.

[BehindBlueI's]

I am the only supervisor working for my shift on Thanksgiving. Since I've been on this shift I, along with my wife, have provided a Thanksgiving dinner for the shift. I fully intended to do so this year.

Now roughly 10% of our officers and one of four sergeants are out on quarantine with either positive tests or quarantined due to exposure until tests come back. That's pretty consistent across the department as I understand it. Few got exposed at work except from other officers. Nurse spouses seem to be the highest risk factor, and cops and nurses seem to marry pretty regularly.

I sent out an email today that, with regret, I am cancelling our Thanksgiving dinner. Do not come to roll call. Report directly to beat.

And it sucks. I get that. The officers like it and I like to do it. My family likes to come and be present. But we have a responsibility to have the manpower available to effectively police the city and to back each other up. The odds of anyone dying are damn near zero, but the odds of someone going to are now-taxed hospitals are not. We're being warned that diversions to outlying hospitals are imminent. So that's why I made the decision I made. I'm not going to have an incident take down nearly half the shift and I'm not going to add to the burden at hospitals. And I still regret it.

[Caballoflaco]

I am the only supervisor working for my shift on Thanksgiving. Since I've been on this shift I, along with my wife, have provided a Thanksgiving dinner for the shift. I fully intended to do so this year.

Now roughly 10% of our officers and one of four sergeants are out on quarantine with either positive tests or quarantined due to exposure until tests come back. That's pretty consistent across the department as I understand it. Few got exposed at work except from other officers. Nurse spouses seem to be the highest risk factor, and cops and nurses seem to marry pretty regularly.

I sent out an email today that, with regret, I am cancelling our Thanksgiving dinner. Do not come to roll call. Report directly to beat.

And it sucks. I get that. The officers like it and I like to do it. My family likes to come and be present. But we have a responsibility to have the manpower available to effectively police the city and to back each other up. The odds of anyone dying are damn near zero, but the odds of someone going to are now-taxed hospitals are not. We're being warned that diversions to outlying hospitals are imminent. So that's why I made the decision I made. I'm not going to have an incident take down nearly half the shift and I'm not going to add to the burden at hospitals. And I still regret it.

It’s probably too late now, but. Would a “curbside pick-up” be feasible if you wanted to do it? Let the guys swing by the station in ones or twos to get a plate to go? With just a couple of people fixing plates with good ppe it doesn’t seem any more risky than guys who don’t bring food hitting up a restaurant or gas station.

[peterb]

Thanksgiving during the 1918 pandemic:

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2020/11/21/covid-and-thanksgiving-how-we-celebrated-during-1918-flu-pandemic/6264231002/

[Glenn E. Meyer]

To go back in history, I am reading about the Revolutionary War and small pox.

1. Inoculation was possible.
2. Some folks refused it as they thought it was interfering with the will of God, who will protect them from getting it.
3. Troop units of small pox survivors were organized as the first into an area that the British left as it was thought that the British left infected materials to spread it to the Continentals.
4. You could inoculated yourself with a fingernail of pus from a victim and get a mild case. It might make you infectious for a bit. This would mean you should go into quarantine for a month and lowered troop strength. Washington tried to forbid this but troops did this anyway.

Today - our local library is now shut. I love the library, DAMN! We may go red zone. That will shut everything except crucial places. It will close the LGS where my handguns are waiting for my permission (any day) to get them. DAMN. Without Covid I would have had them months ago.

The vaccines better work as that's the only way I see out of this. I wonder if I'll ever shoot again (wah, wah).

[BehindBlueI's]

It’s probably too late now, but. Would a “curbside pick-up” be feasible if you wanted to do it? Let the guys swing by the station in ones or twos to get a plate to go? With just a couple of people fixing plates with good ppe it doesn’t seem any more risky than guys who don’t bring food hitting up a restaurant or gas station.

I could probably overcome the logistical hurdles of doing so, but the point is more camaraderie of sharing the meal then the meal itself.. Even when you share it with *shudder* fucking firemen.

[BehindBlueI's]

Today - our local library is now shut. I love the library, DAMN!

Ours have been closed off and on for awhile, but the online Kindle selection never shuts down.

[Wise_A]

Even when you share it with *shudder* fucking firemen.

I almost sprayed tea on my monitor. Our po-po just goes to calls with basic protective equipment on. Our firemen--admittedly, the fucking volunteers--file formal complaints whenever they don't hear the COVID warning on the radio. Hey jackass, it's a call for breathing distress, maybe mask up. Right up there with my other favorite line: There's a reason why I told you to stage at your discretion.

We're doing a pancake dinner on our shift, but we're already in a position where we're just spraying contagion all over each other anyway. So far we've been lucky--only one quarantine.

[jtcarm]

We’re prepping for 14.

There should be plenty of room for overflow in the nursing homes, since Cuomo thinned out the elderly population.

[Wise_A]

Total number of COVID complaints we received this Thanksgiving: 0.

Total number of DVs received: the usual, but they were funnier today.