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View Full Version : Reloads from concealment and consistency



Shawn.L
06-23-2012, 03:42 PM
I dropped off practicing my reloads AT ALL for a maybe half a year. I mean, I reload the gun when its empty, but I wasnt doing any dry, wasnt doing any dedicated and analysed live fire, and really didnt care too much. Before then on the not tight shots ( 7 yard A zones) I was consistent at the 1.95-2.05 range . Now, Im all over the place. Im running anywhere from 1.90-2.40 . I wouldn't mind too much if the swing wasnt so damn large ! Half a second !
So, Im jumping back into adding reloads to something I practice a reasonable amount of time , maybe once a week dry and add 20 dedicated reps on the timer live per week.

I feel like my issue is in indexing on clearing the shirt and indexing on the mag, but I could be wrong. Feedback is welcome.

Here's 2 videos from the last month.

In this one Im running 1-R-1
Total times/reloads
3.34/2.11
3.38/1.91
3.12/1.92
which seems more in line after some dry fire practice this week

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l1bKGtuZ1Y&feature=youtu.be

cant seem to make it play embeded ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0l1bKGtuZ1Y&feature=youtu.be

Shawn.L
06-23-2012, 03:42 PM
and here the same from last week prior


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBtvHUmbJqs&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBtvHUmbJqs&feature=relmfu

I didnt catch any of the really nasty 2.30-2.40 ones , I think I did 10 1-R-1 today and had one at 2.4

Techniques for the reload from CC ?

KravPirate
06-23-2012, 05:06 PM
Could the mag carrier at 8:00 slow you down? I am assuming you have the mag carrier located there because of the knife along your waistline. I prefer mag carrier at 11:00.

Shawn.L
06-23-2012, 05:53 PM
Could the mag carrier at 8:00 slow you down? I am assuming you have the mag carrier located there because of the knife along your waistline. I prefer mag carrier at 11:00.

yes. One reason I stopped practicing reloads was because I barely ever carry one (and I always have a blade) . When I do carry one, thats where it goes, and when I shoot matches Im in Production USPSA and in IDPA both stipulate mags must be behind the 9 O'clock. Mainly I enjoy USPSA (although Ive made ery few matches this year due to time constraints ) and in that game if Im standing still reloading at slide lock Ive already lost that stage. Of course that logic led to my first match this year having the qualifier stage have me do a stationary reload on the clock (although not from slide lock) and while I raped the shooting portion with a ban-saw I tried to shove my mag in sideways :o

vandal
06-23-2012, 08:24 PM
Just wondering if you know why you turn your head to the side when the magazine is coming up? I noticed it in most your clips to a greater or lesser degree. Might have something to do with the variable time, since I assume doing that adds time for reorienting your head/eyes toward the target.

jstyer
06-26-2012, 01:14 PM
To me it looks like you're slow getting the mag seated, and then in turn dropping the slide and getting your support hand grip... but it's definitely a "relatively" slow.

To be honest you look good to me brother, I'd just keep getting some more solid reps in if I was you. Keep perfecting that muscle memory and try and slowly push the speed envelope.

Also, IMO I'm not sure of the 8 o'clock mag issue is slowing you down too much. It looks to me like you're getting a solid speedy index.

ToddG
06-26-2012, 02:20 PM
A sub-2 reload from under a closed front garment is good.

The biggest mistake I see people make when they do a lot of 1R1 is that they don't establish their grip adequately after the reload. Not seeing that here. On the third run, though, you are late closing your thumbs, doing it as the gun goes forward.

You're very inconsistent about where you drive your weak hand to the belt line to access the mag. So it's drive, search, grab... It should just be drive & grab. That eats time. Believe me, I know. It's one of the biggest weaknesses in my personal technique.

You're not stabilizing the gun (leaving it one place & orientation in space) which adds time to the insertion. The extent of this varies from reload to reload. It's far more obvious in the first (slowest) run.

JHC
06-26-2012, 06:33 PM
Off topic from the discussion of the vids but on topic to the title - I have begun experimenting with reloading lower - much lower, and shaded a bit towards the "off" side after watching Vogel and Stoeger vids of the blazing FAST runs. Consistent 2.00-2.10 turned into consistent 1.69-1.77. And this is with 1R1 and 1R2 with hits to a high prob target.

Shawn.L
06-26-2012, 07:02 PM
A sub-2 reload from under a closed front garment is good.

The biggest mistake I see people make when they do a lot of 1R1 is that they don't establish their grip adequately after the reload. Not seeing that here. On the third run, though, you are late closing your thumbs, doing it as the gun goes forward.

You're very inconsistent about where you drive your weak hand to the belt line to access the mag. So it's drive, search, grab... It should just be drive & grab. That eats time. Believe me, I know. It's one of the biggest weaknesses in my personal technique.


You're not stabilizing the gun (leaving it one place & orientation in space) which adds time to the insertion. The extent of this varies from reload to reload. It's far more obvious in the first (slowest) run.

I thought it was during the acquiring the spare mag stage, but it was just a feeling. Prob has a lot to do with not working reloads much, and when I do my mag pouch clips on and so it is likely a little bit off here of there from one session to the next. I'll try switching to a tek-lock and keep it (the primary, or first mag) in one place. When Im shooting USPSA mostly Im reloading on the move, and thats where most of my reloads are and Im sweeping back to that next mag.

I'll look more at the stabilizing part as well.

Im not on the search for the 1.5 from CC , Im happy with sub 2 , I just want the consistency .

Shawn.L
06-26-2012, 07:04 PM
Just wondering if you know why you turn your head to the side when the magazine is coming up? I noticed it in most your clips to a greater or lesser degree. Might have something to do with the variable time, since I assume doing that adds time for reorienting your head/eyes toward the target.

I'll re-check that . I think it may be exaggerated by camera angel , as Im looking at the mag well and the gun and mag come together left of center slightly.

Zhurdan
06-26-2012, 11:24 PM
It may sound crazy, so call me maybe.

Ok, enough jokes.. but this really may sound crazy, but it's improved my reloads substantially. When you load up your belt for the day, (and this is only because I screwed up when I made the first set of kydex ones backwards) put your mags with the mag holder INSIDE the belt. It holds them closer to the body and aides in clearing the garment. In other words, order a righty set of mag pouches, or make your own. I mistakenly put the mags on the kydex during the molding process the wrong way, so I thought I'd try them "inside the belt". Basically, you thread them on the body side of the belt to keep them closer to your body (wear an undershirt) and it helps ever so slightly when trying to clear that bit of mass when you pull your shirt up. It may be infinitesimally small, but I seem to not have a problem clearing the garment over the mags since. It also may be a matter of technique as to where you grab the garment, but it seems to work for me. I'll try to get out with the camera soon, but the winds and smoke from fires have been insane as of late.

Shawn.L
07-02-2012, 03:28 PM
Ran the FAST as my cold skills test today, 6.14 clean, not my best day but damn if it wasnt 2.48 on the reload. Thats an easy half second I should have had. I admit I was sluggish today, went for a 6AM 3 mile run and hit the range running on nothing but coffee I felt slooooooow but lucky I grabbed video and it doesnt seem like that reload time is just me being sluggish but it looks like A LOT more body movement then what I imagined going on.

Feedback is appreciated.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsKcVbUYyWg&feature=youtu.be

(can someone clue me on on effectively embedding video on this site ? )

JRas
07-03-2012, 08:17 AM
I'm no instructor but this is what I would recommend.

looks like you drop your head and you're looking at the magwell, moving your gun out of the workplace. When your done with your reload your moving your gun back up and looking at the threat again.

this is what I found works for me:

try keeping the gun in the exact height you shoot from

move the gun closer towards your head with the left side of the grip facing you

look through the trigger guard at the target, maintain looking at the target.. I'm a fan of looking downrange on a reload.. likely your threat is going to move

index your magazine

nothing fancy put it into your well with authority

since your training and even I should do this more use your support hand to release the slide lock

JHC
07-03-2012, 09:17 AM
FWIW - after watching Vogel and Stoeger's sub 3 second FAST runs I experimented with moving the slide locked pistol lower which dramatically shortened the slowest travel leg of the reload - distance from mag carrier to mag well. The magazine slams home and you rocket that pistol back up to the index much faster than you move your weak hand with reload up to an empty gun up by your chin. From the first rep of trying this through ten consecutive reps, there were on ave 0.3 seconds shaved from the reload (time to next shot) on shoot1reload2. From 1.90-2.00 consistently to 1.65-1.75.

The first obvious counter consideration is situational awareness with eyes looking lower to look-in the reload vs up in the "workspace". I highly doubt there is much lost there however - in real actual "I can tell what's happening downrange" awareness.

Mr_White
07-03-2012, 05:59 PM
The first obvious counter consideration is situational awareness with eyes looking lower to look-in the reload vs up in the "workspace". I highly doubt there is much lost there however - in real actual "I can tell what's happening downrange" awareness.

I'm still not sold on looking the magazine into the magazine well. I know I'm in the tiny minority on that one, but I do not get the sense that I fumble the insertion any less from looking, and even glancing at the magazine well feels like it interrupts the sequence of my vision being locked on the spot I want to hit and driving the sights there when the reload is complete. And, I want continuous threat assessment going on unless I absolutely have to look somewhere else. I recognize that there will be times when that has to happen. I'm just not convinced that reloading is one of those times.

Maybe someday I will see the light of looking the magazine in.

On your other point, I'm going to have to notice a little more closely where exactly the gun is when I reload it - I've just kind of been 'doing them' lately and not paying attention to that.

jstyer
07-03-2012, 09:12 PM
FWIW - after watching Vogel and Stoeger's sub 3 second FAST runs I experimented with moving the slide locked pistol lower which dramatically shortened the slowest travel leg of the reload - distance from mag carrier to mag well. The magazine slams home and you rocket that pistol back up to the index much faster than you move your weak hand with reload up to an empty gun up by your chin. From the first rep of trying this through ten consecutive reps, there were on ave 0.3 seconds shaved from the reload (time to next shot) on shoot1reload2. From 1.90-2.00 consistently to 1.65-1.75.

The first obvious counter consideration is situational awareness with eyes looking lower to look-in the reload vs up in the "workspace". I highly doubt there is much lost there however - in real actual "I can tell what's happening downrange" awareness.

Everything in this post is literally exactly what I've been doing... and JodyH can attest to the fact that my reloads on a 3x5 at 7 yards have gone from 2.3ish to 1.8ish.

And I'm happy to say I that my reloads at the match on Saturday were all fumble free and very speedy.

YVK
07-04-2012, 12:08 AM
Best of my understanding is that high reloads aren't intended that way because they are faster but because one maintains situational awareness that way, no?

Mr_White
07-04-2012, 01:26 AM
Best of my understanding is that high reloads aren't intended that way because they are faster but because one maintains situational awareness that way, no?

I agree.

The main division of the most commonly taught techniques seems to me to be:

Primary visual/mental focus on the magazine on going into the magazine well, secondary/peripheral visual and mental focus on threat, based on the idea(s) that one will screw up the magazine insertion without strong focus on that piece of the process, but won't screw it up looking the magazine into the well, and little can possibly change in the short time (.25 to .50, I am estimating) the visual and mental focus is not directly on the threat and instead briefly glancing at the magazine well.

Vs.:

Primary mental visual focus on threat, theoretically maintaining more thorough and continuous threat assessment and visual fixation if it changes position or posture, or tries to maneuver on us at close range or in difficult to see lighting conditions, but relying on a higher degree of indexing to insert the new magazine than the first method, and so may require more practice.

I think the general thought is that, the higher the reload, the less you relinquish awareness of whichever (threat or mag well) you don't keep direct and sharp visual focus on.

I personally tend to subscribe to #2, as I don't notice (in practice or competition) a higher degree of mag insertion error associated with #2, and I do believe that there is time for important and significant threat posture and/or maneuver to take place in the time frame of 'eyes off threat' in #1.

Force Science Research Center indicates that a threat could: spin 180 degrees and face another direction completely, including running away, get a gun from the waistband into hand and maybe begin firing it at us, or, I believe, drop a weapon or begin a maneuver to a position of advantage against us - taking cover or concealment, flanking or overrunning our position - in that kind of time frame. All of which are things we might do well to react to .25 seconds earlier than if our mind and eyes are focused on our magazine well area.

Mr_White
07-04-2012, 01:52 AM
Ran the FAST as my cold skills test today, 6.14 clean, not my best day but damn if it wasnt 2.48 on the reload. Thats an easy half second I should have had. I admit I was sluggish today, went for a 6AM 3 mile run and hit the range running on nothing but coffee I felt slooooooow but lucky I grabbed video and it doesnt seem like that reload time is just me being sluggish but it looks like A LOT more body movement then what I imagined going on.

Feedback is appreciated.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsKcVbUYyWg&feature=youtu.be

(can someone clue me on on effectively embedding video on this site ? )

Dude, I don't see any big standout inefficiency in your reloading process/structure.

I think I've seen you say that you don't do a lot of reloading practice, out of perceived lack of necessity - that you carry a fixed blade instead of a reload a lot of the time.

And I get that, from a slightly different perspective. I've always carried reloads, but for a long time did not enjoy practicing them, so I didn't. And I had the level of reload I practiced for (weak.)

I think all you need is to continue putting in the time and work on them. I think your basic method is strong and sound, and you just need to do what you need to do to get better at them. React quickly to the empty gun (largely a range/known point of reload thing), drive your support hand to move faster to the clear the concealment garment and get the new magazine, drive that mf to the gun, pause the motion as it is about to go in the mag well and get it precisely aligned, drive that mf into the magwell and get the slide closed and form the two hand grip all as one continuous and fluid motion, by that point you should already have eyes locked on the spot you want to hit, drive the sights there and when you see enough sight picture to hit the target at hand, get the trigger press completed. Don't discount the time included in these last couple of parts. Riding the sight picture on target out of lack of faith in what you see quickly, wasting time to more consciously verify that which you already know you have seen costs a couple of tenths at least. I know, I do it sometimes...

Do that, don't do anything else, and you will find a 1.5 or better with some practice.

I find the above applies to me, and maybe it applies to you too. YMMV.

In addition, for me at least and per my last post, I feel like I get a faster presentation off the reload by having eyes already locked on the threat/spot I want to hit than if I have to re-fixate my vision from glancing at the mag well at any point during the reload. That doesn't seem to be a thing felt by many people though.

I think you are on the right track. I don't think you are showing any big errors. Just get better at what you are doing by spending the time and doing the unfun reload work.

Zhurdan
07-04-2012, 02:04 AM
So, sure... Low reloads are gaming and high reloads are gunfighting? Point being... Which is faster for what application?

Why? Gaming, you know where the target will be. Gunfight, it may have moved. I'd rather go with the high reload to keep an eye on things.

jstyer
07-04-2012, 09:33 AM
So, sure... Low reloads are gaming and high reloads are gunfighting? Point being... Which is faster for what application?

Why? Gaming, you know where the target will be. Gunfight, it may have moved. I'd rather go with the high reload to keep an eye on things.

The way I see, my gun just went down... I'm "hopefully" behind cover. If that's the case than my goal is to get that gun back working AS FAST AS POSSIBLE while I'm under some sort of protection and if my head is under cover, how would I see him anyway?

If I'm out in the open, then that is double plus true. In the 2 tenths of a second that my eyes are on the mag well even Usain Bolt at a dead sprint could only move a maximum of 2 yards. So I'm fairly confident in my situational awareness to track my target down within those two yards as I press the gun back to extension. On the other hand, I'm out in the open and I perform an emergency reload with eyes purely on the target and it takes me another .75 seconds to get my gun working, that's easily enough time for the bad guy to get three more rounds sent towards my face.

I don't think anyone here is advocating a stare at the magwell for the entire 1.5-2 seconds of the reload process, but if a glance at your magwell saves a good chunk of time, then I'm all for it.

That being said I've never been on the sending or receiving end of an angry bullet. So my info is most likely worth what you payed for it.

Zhurdan
07-04-2012, 11:21 AM
I can understand that. I've never been on that end either.

It's just a personal preference.

Shawn.L
08-31-2012, 06:48 PM
Seems just working them back in during practice for time popped me right back in it.
I was doing a good number from my newly set up production class belt, and did some cold CC 1-R-1 and had several right around 2.00 (1.95-2.10). It would seem the unconcealed practice ran right over, so I was probably slowing down as I bring the mag up, orient, insert, and reestablish grip.

Was doing some steel plate races with some guys the other day and I didnt know a dude was taking pics and he just happened to snatch this perfect series.

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/shawn235711/Reload1.jpg
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/shawn235711/Reload2.jpg
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/shawn235711/Reload3.jpg
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/shawn235711/Reload4.jpg
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/shawn235711/Reload5.jpg
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/shawn235711/Reload6.jpg
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/shawn235711/Reload7.jpg

GJM
09-01-2012, 11:30 AM
I have a technique question on getting to the spare magazine with a closed front garment, as typically used with appendix carry. Trying to make acquiring the spare magazine faster and more predictable, I have experimented with bending my torso right to help lift the cover garment. Are others doing that?

ToddG
09-01-2012, 11:41 AM
Yes, absolutely.

Mr_White
09-01-2012, 11:48 AM
No, but maybe I should try it.

GJM
09-01-2012, 11:52 AM
Would you have a link to a video or photo of this?

I stumbled onto it by accident, trying to study the motion and analyze where I could improve things, but didn't want to make it SOP without figuring out whether there are unintended consequences I hadn't anticipated.

GJM
09-01-2012, 12:00 PM
O....AK, you are so fast you don't need any more help!

This is what I have been doing:988

YVK
09-01-2012, 01:59 PM
I have a technique question on getting to the spare magazine with a closed front garment, as typically used with appendix carry. Trying to make acquiring the spare magazine faster and more predictable, I have experimented with bending my torso right to help lift the cover garment. Are others doing that?

This is something that Ernest Langdon mentioned as a reason, or one of them, to position a mag pouch at 9 (for right handers). Frankly though, the lean must be barely perceptible since I haven't noticed it with him, or with Todd's reloads, for that matter.