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RJ
11-09-2020, 07:21 AM
Anyone local have the details on this?

https://13wham.com/news/local/man-dies-after-accidental-discharge-at-indoor-shooting-range

A 67-year-old male was struck by a projectile and was pronounced dead at the scene shortly afterwards.

The man involved was a certified range officer serving as a safety officer in a United States Practical Shooting Association (USPSA) competition when he was struck by accidental discharge from a competitor’s firearm, according to the Genesee Conservation League.

My thoughts and prayers to out to everyone involved. What a tragedy.

Bucky
11-09-2020, 07:28 AM
This is very tragic. Prayers and condolences.

Zincwarrior
11-09-2020, 08:56 AM
From the Brian Enos site:

I’m from Western New York and for now the word is that the competitor was reloading during the stage, dropped his gun which went off and killed the RO. I just shot a match with the RO and his son a couple of weeks ago. Tragic.

LittleLebowski
11-09-2020, 09:55 AM
Goddamn. RIP.

YVK
11-09-2020, 09:58 AM
Tragic event, I think a second fatal event in North American competitive events in several years that I know of.

I am going to hazard a guess that 60-70%, if not more, USPSA guns don't have drop safeties. All 1911/2011s of Open, Limited and SS, plus many-many CZs. Many, if not most, also have extended firing pins and reduced power springs. Having dropped a gun during a stage run (it's final resting position was with a muzzle squarely up range), can't say I am too surprised that this has happened.

Zincwarrior
11-09-2020, 10:09 AM
Tragic event, I think a second fatal event in North American competitive events in several years that I know of.

I am going to hazard a guess that 60-70%, if not more, USPSA guns don't have drop safeties. All 1911/2011s of Open, Limited and SS, plus many-many CZs. Many, if not most, also have extended firing pins and reduced power springs. Having dropped a gun during a stage run (it's final resting position was with a muzzle squarely up range), can't say I am too surprised that this has happened.

In class we were advised to tell new shooters never to try to grab a falling gun as they might snare the trigger, but that a gun will not go off if dropped. This puts some doubt to that.

Bucky
11-09-2020, 10:13 AM
Tragic event, I think a second fatal event in North American competitive events in several years that I know of.

I am going to hazard a guess that 60-70%, if not more, USPSA guns don't have drop safeties. All 1911/2011s of Open, Limited and SS, plus many-many CZs. Many, if not most, also have extended firing pins and reduced power springs. Having dropped a gun during a stage run (it's final resting position was with a muzzle squarely up range), can't say I am too surprised that this has happened.

It would be beneficial to know the gun and modifications. We can make others aware, and possibly put in place steps to prevent this.

There are a lot of 1911 / 2011 with unsafe trigger jobs out there. Sometimes they come from "reputable" smiths as well. I'm not talking about being too light, either. Check your half cock notches. Put the gun in the half cock notch, then pull the trigger. If you can drop the hammer from half cock by pulling the trigger, please get this fixed. Actually, they test safeties at the chrono stage, I think they should add this test.

Of course, I have no idea if this has anything to do with this particular event, but we need to prevent future events as best as possible.

Another case in point, a competitor at a USPSA match did a quick draw on his GLOCK and it went off. The bullet went through and through.... his pants. Miraculously, he was unharmed. The match director was there and saw that he did not touch the trigger. This competitor went so crazy on his trigger job that he had disabled all the safeties on the gun. Inspection of the gun proved that. I'm am certain this gun would have discharged if dropped. He was allowed back to shoot, but for several months he had to submit his gun for inspection before competing.

As I said earlier, my heart goes out to those involved. Very tragic.

RJ
11-09-2020, 10:26 AM
Some additional context from TTAG:

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ny-range-safety-officer-killed-by-negligent-discharge-during-uspsa-competition/

We need to find out more about why this tragic incident happened, so it never happens again.

Glenn E. Meyer
11-09-2020, 10:45 AM
It's not that far from me. I've not shot in the local USPSA as I'm just getting my handguns out of FFL storage. I used to shoot IDPA but it's not in Erie County but Rochester area. There is indoor USPSA here. However, I'm a little concerned that the USPSA guns can be unsafe. I've seen guys do dangerous things in matches. In one IDPA match, a guy decided to run so fast (USPSA style) that he fell flat on his face. Got up and tried to run again, another flop. I would have DQ'ed him for safety. Got some flack for that opinion. But if a fall impact sets of a gun - I'm sticking to that opinion.

I did have a guy almost shoot my foot with a 1911 when told to load, make ready, holster. Idiot, no safety on and finger on the trigger.

I feel the lawyers circling. The club, the shooter, the gun company if it was not drop safe, gun smith, whomever they could get to.

Manbearspider
11-09-2020, 11:17 AM
We just had an ND at a match about a month back (I happened to skip the match, but the news went out via social). Older guy shooting USPSA for the first time Glock legged himself holstering for make ready. Enough folks on scene were trained and had IFAKs/TQs that it was controlled, and as far as I've heard he'll be fine, but it certainly makes you think about gear choices. This tragedy only furthers that train of thought.

fatdog
11-09-2020, 11:50 AM
This is very sad. Over the years I have personally seen both a raced up 1911 and a 2011 gun discharge upon being dropped. Fortunately with the round impacting the berm in both cases. In both those cases the competitor was running and tripped on something on the stage, gun went flying, in one case at the Alabama sectional it was spinning...yikes.

The sport allows people to remove almost every safety device in limited and open. In the 90's and the first decade of this century my guns were missing the series 80 safety plunger (Para and Colt), had the grip safety pinned, and the trigger sear geometry and springs necessary to have a 3-3.5# trigger like everybody else. I always had a Ti firing pin and extra power firing pin spring and told myself it was enough. Not sure I was right. People have long done the same things to Glocks (Lighting strike kits, ZEV, etc. etc.) in the name of lighter triggers and performance.

The sport has evolved the last 10-15 years to include so much "track and field" I am going to say that those heavily modified guns that dispense with all the drop safety design elements are no longer compatible with safe operations.

Glenn E. Meyer
11-09-2020, 11:58 AM
That 'track and field' aspect was a deterrent to my participation as I am more into stroll across the lawn mode nowadays. Let's have another IDPA vs. USPSA debate. Might take us away from the current rage fest about you know who.

Clusterfrack
11-09-2020, 12:05 PM
That is tragic. I would welcome a safety review of USPSA. I'm guessing it is far safer than rock climbing or paragliding, but there are ways to address some of the biggest risks.


The sport has evolved the last 10-15 years to include so much "track and field" I am going to say that those heavily modified guns that dispense with all the drop safety design elements are no longer compatible with safe operations.

Almost all the really scary things I've seen have been during holstering or drawing. If we eliminated "speed holstering" and extremely light triggers, I'm guessing ND's would be reduced significantly.

GJM
11-09-2020, 12:40 PM
Not sure if correct, but earlier I saw mention on Enos of a CZ being dropped when the competitor was making ready and returning the pistol to the holster.

olstyn
11-09-2020, 12:46 PM
If we eliminated "speed holstering" and extremely light triggers, I'm guessing ND's would be reduced significantly.

100% with you on that - it definitely tweaks me out when I see people holstering super quickly and without looking, especially when they're clearly hunting for the holster because they miss on the first try. Not sure how to implement it in the rules, though. Anything requiring RO discretion rather than objective measurement can become problematic, rules-wise.

Zincwarrior
11-09-2020, 12:48 PM
Not sure if correct, but earlier I saw mention on Enos of a CZ being dropped when the competitor was making ready and returning the pistol to the holster.

I saw that as well.



100% with you on that - it definitely tweaks me out when I see people holstering super quickly and without looking, especially when they're clearly hunting for the holster because they miss on the first try. Not sure how to implement it in the rules, though. Anything requiring RO discretion rather than objective measurement can become problematic, rules-wise. I've told many a shooter to seriously slow down and look at their holster.

Caballoflaco
11-09-2020, 12:57 PM
100% with you on that - it definitely tweaks me out when I see people holstering super quickly and without looking, especially when they're clearly hunting for the holster because they miss on the first try. Not sure how to implement it in the rules, though. Anything requiring RO discretion rather than objective measurement can become problematic, rules-wise.

Instead of shooter load and make ready I would change it to something along the lines of.

“Shooter if you are ready load”

Mandatory pause for loading of the pistol

“Shooter if your pistol is loaded you may now safely holster”

I think having a pause and having to wait for a verbal command to holster would be the most effective way of slowling people down and helping them to holster safely while they have “match jitters”.

Clusterfrack
11-09-2020, 01:23 PM
Instead of shooter load and make ready I would change it to something along the lines of.

“Shooter if you are ready load”

Mandatory pause for loading of the pistol

“Shooter if your pistol is loaded you may now safely holster”

I think having a pause and having to wait for a verbal command to holster would be the most effective way of slowling people down and helping them to holster safely while they have “match jitters”.

Good idea. One could also make it a match DQ for holstering faster than a count of "One One Thousand, Two One Thousand, Three One Thousand". I agree that it would be somewhat subjective, but obvious "slam-holster" behavior could be called. RO's already have to make subjective safe-angle violations.

Drop safety is a harder one to address. I plan to do an experiment with my Shadow2s using empty cases and Federal primers.

YVK
11-09-2020, 01:24 PM
The sport has evolved the last 10-15 years to include so much "track and field" I am going to say that those heavily modified guns that dispense with all the drop safety design elements are no longer compatible with safe operations.

Somewhat reluctantly but I have to agree. I do think that the athletic part is great and I would not shoot the matches if it was gone. We have enough sedate or stationary shooting disciplines for those who like that. That said, my own gun drop was just because of that, losing footing while pushing foot speed. I am yet to see anything happen during holstering.

Unless this ends up in a successful lawsuit against USPSA, which I doubt, I dont see rules changing.

One of my Shadows still has extended pin and light spring. Gonna change to standard tonight.

Rocky Racoon
11-09-2020, 02:50 PM
The sport has evolved the last 10-15 years to include so much "track and field" I am going to say that those heavily modified guns that dispense with all the drop safety design elements are no longer compatible with safe operations.

I haven’t seen the same evolution. Go back further though and the old timers (they were young then) did some wilder stuff like crawling through tunnels and over walls.




That 'track and field' aspect was a deterrent to my participation as I am more into stroll across the lawn mode nowadays. Let's have another IDPA vs. USPSA debate. Might take us away from the current rage fest about you know who.

Let’s don’t.

Is yet another IDPA vs USPSA debate going to help? Competitors in both drop pistols, lighten triggers and shorten travel and disable safeties. People run in both games.

I welcome a discussion of safety measures or lack thereof in USPSA. But until you convince me the same couldnt have happened in IDPA, then don’t make it about USPSA vs IDPA.

EDIT - maybe I misunderstood the “evolution.” I do think the top competitors have evolved and move faster and run harder than 10-15 years ago when Angus or someone like him could place high. But there have always been stages that had a running requirement.

Wheeler
11-09-2020, 05:52 PM
I haven’t seen the same evolution. Go back further though and the old timers (they were young then) did some wilder stuff like crawling through tunnels and over walls.





Let’s don’t.

Is yet another IDPA vs USPSA debate going to help? Competitors in both drop pistols, lighten triggers and shorten travel and disable safeties. People run in both games.

I welcome a discussion of safety measures or lack thereof in USPSA. But until you convince me the same couldnt have happened in IDPA, then don’t make it about USPSA vs IDPA.

EDIT - maybe I misunderstood the “evolution.” I do think the top competitors have evolved and move faster and run harder than 10-15 years ago when Angus or someone like him could place high. But there have always been stages that had a running requirement.

IDPA specifically disallows the disabling of safety mechanisms, so while it could happen, it would be because an individual has decided to ignore the rules and made the conscious choice to violate those same rules.

8.1.8 Non-IDPA-Legal Features and Modifications for All Divisions
The following features and modifications are not allowed in any division unless otherwise specifically allowed in the rulebook.
A. Compensators of any type including hybrid or ported barrels.
B. Add-on weights. This includes (but is not limited to) weighted magazines, tungsten guide rods, brass magazine
wells, weighted grips, and weighted grip plugs.
C. Heavy and/or cone style barrels without a barrel bushing except as allowed in ESP, CCP, BUG and CDP divisions
with length restrictions.
D. Sights of non-standard configuration (ghost rings, Bo-Mar ribs, etc.).
E. Disconnecting or disabling of any safety device including (but not limited to): manual safeties, grip safeties, firing
pin, striker, and hammer blocking safeties, 1911 series 80 firing pin safeties, 1911 Swartz safeties. 1911 series 80 frames may be used with series 70 slides or vice versa. Revolver actions may not be modified so that the hammer can fall when the cylinder is open.
F. Lights mounted on firearms.
G. Rail mounted lasers and bolt-on trigger guard mounted lasers are not allowed.

Rocky Racoon
11-09-2020, 06:26 PM
IDPA specifically disallows the disabling of safety mechanisms, so while it could happen, it would be because an individual has decided to ignore the rules and made the conscious choice to violate those same rules.

8.1.8 Non-IDPA-Legal Features and Modifications for All Divisions
The following features and modifications are not allowed in any division unless otherwise specifically allowed in the rulebook.
A. Compensators of any type including hybrid or ported barrels.
B. Add-on weights. This includes (but is not limited to) weighted magazines, tungsten guide rods, brass magazine
wells, weighted grips, and weighted grip plugs.
C. Heavy and/or cone style barrels without a barrel bushing except as allowed in ESP, CCP, BUG and CDP divisions
with length restrictions.
D. Sights of non-standard configuration (ghost rings, Bo-Mar ribs, etc.).
E. Disconnecting or disabling of any safety device including (but not limited to): manual safeties, grip safeties, firing
pin, striker, and hammer blocking safeties, 1911 series 80 firing pin safeties, 1911 Swartz safeties. 1911 series 80 frames may be used with series 70 slides or vice versa. Revolver actions may not be modified so that the hammer can fall when the cylinder is open.
F. Lights mounted on firearms.
G. Rail mounted lasers and bolt-on trigger guard mounted lasers are not allowed.

You are assuming that the only way a pistol used in IDPA competition wouldn't be drop safe is if someone disabled or disconnected a safety. I wouldn't make that assumption.

(Not to mention - what's the point of a rule if it's just the honor system? IDPA isn't checking. Which begs the question if it's a rule but isn't enforced or checked, is it just there for CYA purposes?)

Wheeler
11-09-2020, 06:58 PM
You are assuming that the only way a pistol used in IDPA competition wouldn't be drop safe is if someone disabled or disconnected a safety. I wouldn't make that assumption.

(Not to mention - what's the point of a rule if it's just the honor system? IDPA isn't checking. Which begs the question if it's a rule but isn't enforced or checked, is it just there for CYA purposes?)

Yeah, I guess some guy could show up with his not drop safe pistol, what modern pistol would that be besides the Sig P320 which has been recalled and upgraded?

Which shooting organizations make it mandatory to disassemble and check the internals of the participants' firearms prior to allowing them to compete? Do they hire competent gunsmiths to verify the proper tolerances? Isn't it disingenuous to point out that IDPA uses their rules for CYA while leaving out every other shooting sport in the USA which does exactly the same thing? Participation in organized sports of any sort requires a certain amount of integrity, both on the part of the competitor and the organization.

RJ
11-09-2020, 07:04 PM
It's not that far from me. I've not shot in the local USPSA as I'm just getting my handguns out of FFL storage. I used to shoot IDPA but it's not in Erie County but Rochester area. There is indoor USPSA here. However, I'm a little concerned that the USPSA guns can be unsafe.



Obviously I'm not an expert, but the Apr '20 USPSA rulebook specifically mentions safety devices in Production, Appendix D.4:

21.1: "ALL Factory safety mechanisms, whether internal or external, must remain functional."
22: "Removing or disabling firing-pin blocks or any other factory safety mechanism in Production division is specifically prohibited."
22.1: "External and externally operated safety mechanisms must remain operable."

This language appears to be also in Appendix D.7,CO. It doesn't seem to appear in Open, Limited, or Limited 10. I would be curious what some of ya'll more experienced shooters (I've done a meagre 14 matches, life time) think about what percentage of competitors guns in USPSA are drop safe. For my own safe, I sure as hell hope it's 100.

But at any rate, I would like to see the "what happened" in NY, so as to make an intelligent assessment on how to prevent this horrible event from ever happening again.

JCS
11-09-2020, 07:25 PM
So are CZ shadows drop safe? Or is the speculation that it was modified?

BN
11-09-2020, 08:01 PM
So are CZ shadows drop safe? Or is the speculation that it was modified?

I don't think Shadows have a firing pin block. Many of the other CZs do have a firing pin block.

trader
11-09-2020, 08:15 PM
I don't think Shadows have a firing pin block. Many of the other CZs do have a firing pin block.

Correct, the Shadows do not have a firing pin block. The CZ 75B and BD do have FPB.

JAD
11-09-2020, 08:41 PM
In a 1911, a firing pin block prevents the gun from firing when it is dropped on its muzzle. I don’t know from Shadows, but I would be more interested in hammer sear interface and half cock behavior.

olstyn
11-09-2020, 08:47 PM
Correct, the Shadows do not have a firing pin block. The CZ 75B and BD do have FPB.

So if a Shadow/Shadow 2 falls directly on its hammer, there would be at least some chance that it would discharge, no?

Glenn E. Meyer
11-09-2020, 08:50 PM
Interesting. A friend of mine has a Shadow. Do any agencies or armed forces use them?

Bucky
11-09-2020, 08:52 PM
So if a Shadow/Shadow 2 falls directly on its hammer, there would be at least some chance that it would discharge, no?

A drop on the hammer wouldn’t drive the firing pin forward. If the gun fired, it would be for another reason, most typical would be trigger bounce. The firing pin block would more prevent discharge from a drop on the muzzle, that would cause inertial to bounce the firing pin forward.

farscott
11-09-2020, 08:55 PM
It could have easily been my SVI as it has no firing pin drop safety. SVI does use an extra-power firing pin spring, but the SVI firing pins are steel. As such, I do not believe it is drop safe nor do I wish to have my belief validated.

olstyn
11-09-2020, 08:56 PM
Interesting. A friend of mine has a Shadow. Do any agencies or armed forces use them?

Seems unlikely given how much more expensive they are than normal CZ 75s, and the fact that they're specifically marketed as competition guns.

Glenn E. Meyer
11-09-2020, 09:00 PM
Once saw a guy draw his gun and throw it about 10 feet in front him. He said: OH, I threw my piece down range.

Yes, indeed. Bye bye.

Rocky Racoon
11-09-2020, 09:20 PM
Yeah, I guess some guy could show up with his not drop safe pistol, what modern pistol would that be besides the Sig P320 which has been recalled and upgraded?

Which shooting organizations make it mandatory to disassemble and check the internals of the participants' firearms prior to allowing them to compete? Do they hire competent gunsmiths to verify the proper tolerances? Isn't it disingenuous to point out that IDPA uses their rules for CYA while leaving out every other shooting sport in the USA which does exactly the same thing? Participation in organized sports of any sort requires a certain amount of integrity, both on the part of the competitor and the organization.


You guess some guy could?

1. The Sig wasn't recalled. It was a voluntary "upgrade."
2. CZ Shadow and other 75 series and their clones for one (or for several). Any number of others that may have been modified and are no longer drop safe but have safeties intact. Any number of others that are thought to be drop safe but haven't had a blogger figured out they aren't. (kind like with the Sig.)

No, what I think is disingenuous is to say "Don't look at IDPA. They have a rule against it." when we both know the rule is isn't enforced and is in fact unenforceable.

JAD
11-09-2020, 10:04 PM
It could have easily been my SVI as it has no firing pin drop safety. SVI does use an extra-power firing pin spring, but the SVI firing pins are steel. As such, I do not believe it is drop safe nor do I wish to have my belief validated.

It is not very drop safe if it lands on the muzzle, but this gun didn’t land on the muzzle. A fpb does not affect a drop induced discharge that is likely to result in fatality. Fpbs are good, but this is unlikely to be related to the fpb.

Toonces
11-09-2020, 10:33 PM
100% with you on that - it definitely tweaks me out when I see people holstering super quickly and without looking, especially when they're clearly hunting for the holster because they miss on the first try. Not sure how to implement it in the rules, though. Anything requiring RO discretion rather than objective measurement can become problematic, rules-wise.

Put it in the rules: Look your pistol into the holster, at a speed slow enough for an RO of normal abilities to discern if your trigger finger is in a safe location.

If someone is looking at their holster and misses it, RO discretion on a DQ. If someone isn't looking and misses the holster, automatic DQ.

Seems logical after a hard day and some Jameson...

HCM
11-09-2020, 10:35 PM
Yeah, I guess some guy could show up with his not drop safe pistol, what modern pistol would that be besides the Sig P320 which has been recalled and upgraded?

Which shooting organizations make it mandatory to disassemble and check the internals of the participants' firearms prior to allowing them to compete? Do they hire competent gunsmiths to verify the proper tolerances? Isn't it disingenuous to point out that IDPA uses their rules for CYA while leaving out every other shooting sport in the USA which does exactly the same thing? Participation in organized sports of any sort requires a certain amount of integrity, both on the part of the competitor and the organization.


You guess some guy could?

1. The Sig wasn't recalled. It was a voluntary "upgrade."
2. CZ Shadow and other 75 series and their clones for one (or for several). Any number of others that may have been modified and are no longer drop safe but have safeties intact. Any number of others that are thought to be drop safe but haven't had a blogger figured out they aren't. (kind like with the Sig.)

No, what I think is disingenuous is to say "Don't look at IDPA. They have a rule against it." when we both know the rule is isn't enforced and is in fact unenforceable.

The filing in the latest(July 2020) SIG 320 drop safety lawsuit claims only 20% of the original design P320s covered by the Voluntary Upgrade Program (VUP) have been sent in and upgraded.

As discussed previously on PF and elsewhere, the striker fired Caniks, which have gained popularity as a budget competition gun, have drop safety issues and have had documented NDs from drops.

Though I'm not aware of ND's, during the original P320 drop gate hysteria, the various mallet tests were abe to get most fully tensioned striker guns including the HK VP9 and PPQ to release the striker when hit from behind with rubber mallets.

Wise_A
11-09-2020, 10:36 PM
In a 1911, a firing pin block prevents the gun from firing when it is dropped on its muzzle. I don’t know from Shadows, but I would be more interested in hammer sear interface and half cock behavior.

A Series 70 (people will complain about calling them that, but tfb)relies on the half-cock notch "catching" the sear on the way down. The firing pin spring resists the forward movement of the pin, so the half-cock doesn't need to fully stop the hammer, only retard the momentum enough to allow the firing pin spring to work. The problem is that the pressure to "be competitive" works directly against that:

*Reduce the firing pin spring weight to improve reliability
*Extend the firing pin to improve reliability
*Reduce sear spring pressure for a lighter trigger
*Have smaller engagement surfaces on the sear to have a lighter, crisper trigger without actually being good at making a trigger
*Have a heavy mainspring to soften recoil at the end of the cycle, and improve reliability

There are also some things that can be bad that would exacerbate all this, like mis-placed or oversized pin holes, or undersized or poorly-fit pins. Not to mention wear and tear in a high-volume sport. Also note that not all of these things will necessarily do the things I've attributed to them, but rather, people will do them because that's what they think they're accomplishing. And while I don't do USPSA and thus wouldn't want to say that having a higher minimum trigger pull weight would be a good idea, I would say that having a more duty-gun-like trigger weight would disincentivize Bubba quite a bit.

A Series 80 has a trigger-activated firing pin block. Not because of the hammer falling in the event of a dropped gun, but rather to prevent the inertia of the firing pin itself from overcoming its spring and causing ignition.

Glenn E. Meyer
11-09-2020, 11:00 PM
The filing in the latest(July 2020) SIG 320 drop safety lawsuit claims only 20% of the original design P320s covered by the Voluntary Upgrade Program (VUP) have been sent in and upgraded.

As an somewhat related diversion, you may remember the Ruger Single Action revolver recall for drop safe issues. A free modification was offered. The gun as originally released recommended the classic 5 round loading. There was a case on the old CourtTV where a guy drops the original gun and shoots himself. He sues. The jury is presented evidence that the guy knew of the recall and original instructions. They find for Ruger. However, Ruger still gives him a chunk of change (nowhere the request amount) to avoid an appeal. The lawyer probably took one third. Wonder if it covered the trial costs.

If there is a lawsuit, firearms experts will be waiting by their electronic devices for the call or text. However, do you denounce the shooting sports.

BigT
11-10-2020, 04:59 AM
This is a tragedy and I feel for the family of the deceased.

It's also a man bites dog story. In that its so rare as to be news worthy. Millions of rounds are fired every year around the world by people running around at full tilt with guns that aren't drop safe. The stars aligned really badly this one time to make this happen. But its in fact only this one time. We don't need to change entire sports because of this. We don't need new rules books and we don't need to change all our guns. More people die playing golf.

Lets all read the cover of the Hitchhikers Guide and DON'T PANIC!

RJ
11-10-2020, 07:37 AM
I guess I'm still getting my head wrapped around the concept of a sport allowing non-drop safe guns.

Obviously I'm new to firearms late in life. But what I did not expect to understand is that this is a sport which apparently allows unverified equipment to be used by amateurs, to participate in a physical activity involving running with a loaded firearm, which may go off if dropped during a stage, or during a holster.

Have I got that right?

Again, I would really like to find out "what happened" in this tragic case, rather than go off to develop some half-baked solution to a non-existent problem. But I feel terrible for the families involved.

fatdog
11-10-2020, 08:12 AM
this is a sport which apparently allows unverified equipment to be used by amateurs, to participate in a physical activity involving running with a loaded firearm, which may go off if dropped during a stage, or during a holster.

Have I got that right?...

Yes, in open and limited, lim10 since day one. And as I cited earlier, the culture in the sport around creating light performance triggers and guns that are easy to shoot, has for decades lead to people removing or disabling the mechanisms that were designed to make guns drop safe, and putting in place action jobs that themselves might make the sear/hammer mechanism susceptible to failing if dropped on a hard surface.

While I no longer shoot limited or open, and sold those off, I personally did or had prominent well known racegun gunsmiths do all of the above to my various open and limited guns over the years.

While there may be rules in production division that are supposed to prevent the removal of things like trigger/striker block safeties everybody knows there are some competitors who do. Nobody inspects guns at a club match.

GJM
11-10-2020, 08:13 AM
Shooting sports, including USPSA, can be dangerous. While deaths at USPSA matches are uncommon, we have had people killed or injured by ricochets, bullets passing through gaps in berms, grabbing (drop safe) pistols that were falling, and accidental discharges when moving or holstering. Most matches start with a briefing that says shooting can be a dangerous sport, and death or serious injury are possible. That said, deaths from crashes to or from the match, or from heart attacks during the match are surely way more common than deaths like what happened in NY at the match.

olstyn
11-10-2020, 08:23 AM
I guess I'm still getting my head wrapped around the concept of a sport allowing non-drop safe guns.

Obviously I'm new to firearms late in life. But what I did not expect to understand is that this is a sport which apparently allows unverified equipment to be used by amateurs, to participate in a physical activity involving running with a loaded firearm, which may go off if dropped during a stage, or during a holster.

Have I got that right?

Basically, yeah. The vast majority of the time, it's not a problem. I think I've seen a grand total of one dropped gun in the last ten or so years, and it didn't go off. Similarly, I can recall only two unintended discharges, and one gun that doubled (this resulted in the shooter withdrawing from the rest of the match and getting it repaired before the next one.) None of these incidents resulted in any injuries.

The incident which started this thread is scary as fuck, and awful for everyone involved, but it's a freak occurrence. I agree with you that it would be very good to find the root [mechanical] cause. I really like the suggestion someone else made earlier in the thread regarding requiring competitors to actually look at their holsters when holstering; I believe that doing things that way would eliminate a large % of the chance of this occurring.

littlejerry
11-10-2020, 08:36 AM
I guess I'm still getting my head wrapped around the concept of a sport allowing non-drop safe guns.

Obviously I'm new to firearms late in life. But what I did not expect to understand is that this is a sport which apparently allows unverified equipment to be used by amateurs, to participate in a physical activity involving running with a loaded firearm, which may go off if dropped during a stage, or during a holster.

Have I got that right?

Again, I would really like to find out "what happened" in this tragic case, rather than go off to develop some half-baked solution to a non-existent problem. But I feel terrible for the families involved.

How many rifles and shotguns do you think are drop safe in all of the 3Gun, 2Gun, and PRS matches around the country?

Running around with loaded guns is dangerous. As is pretty much anything in life worth doing. This is obviously a tragedy, and we should try to prevent it from happening again, but no amount of rule-making will eliminate the possibility of a fatality in a sport that involves running around with loaded guns.

ranger
11-10-2020, 09:35 AM
I am waiting for the first "I want to speak to your manager" post...........

P.E. Kelley
11-10-2020, 11:40 AM
This is a tragedy and I feel for the family of the deceased.

It's also a man bites dog story. In that its so rare as to be news worthy. Millions of rounds are fired every year around the world by people running around at full tilt with guns that aren't drop safe. The stars aligned really badly this one time to make this happen. But its in fact only this one time. We don't need to change entire sports because of this. We don't need new rules books and we don't need to change all our guns. More people die playing golf.

Lets all read the cover of the Hitchhikers Guide and DON'T PANIC!

THIS^^^^ Thank you BigT!

Tragic yes! But this level of "we need to do something" is getting out of hand.

Oh a gun dropped...and it went off! I am confident that happens more at home more than at the range, let lone
at a USPSA or IDPA shooting match!

Having shot some international events, IPSC does check guns, but they do not take them apart to inspect. (I would not like them to either!)

For sure we have some "homesmiths" altering guns incorrectly making them less safe.
We have people doing the same to their cars, homes and their BODIES! i.e. (get off the couch you fat bastard and put out that cancer stick)

Risk is out there.

Let us refrain from a wholesale request to revamp our action shooting sports. We have a fantastic safety record.

I WILL add that NEW SHOOTERS to the action shooting sports need to be "checked" for basic gun handling skills.

Back in the day (when I started) I had to show basic proficiency at my first IPSC match. I was already a Master
IHMSA shooter, but even at that I was pleased to see this kind of procedure.

Sadly it seems to be a club by club thing.

IPSC Canada requires "Black Badge" certification before you can shoot. Loved shooting with my Canuck friends and
loved the professionalism they showed in their IPSC events.

RJ
11-10-2020, 11:48 AM
I agree with you that it would be very good to find the root [mechanical] cause. I really like the suggestion someone else made earlier in the thread regarding requiring competitors to actually look at their holsters when holstering; I believe that doing things that way would eliminate a large % of the chance of this occurring.

I agree 100% with that.

I will say it was a surprise to me that USPSA has a history of running guns that are not drop safe, whether they be stock pistols, pistols modified to adjust or eliminate safety devices, or by modifications to guns by competitors seeking an advantage. Apparently this is in the rulebook (at least not explicitly banned) for Open, L and L10. I feel better educated now.

I'll certainly adjust how I participate in a stage accordingly, within the current USPSA ruleset. For instance, I will be less complacent about where I am relative to the RO and shooter, in a bay, during the load and make ready, that's for sure. I'll probably also make sure I have a TQ/IFAK "on me" from now on (generally in range bag).

I will be the poster-child for "slow, careful holster", looking the gun in all the way. I can add a hard break, mentally, to the reholster process, just before carefully guiding the gun in.

I will buy an SCD for my game gun (I have one on my carry Glock, but not on the gun I use for USPSA). Maybe there are other ideas that I can come up with, to make reholstering more positive and under control.(*)

As to this incident, I think I'm repeating myself, so i will shut up at this point: a death in any dangerous sport or occupation, whether in Aviation, Motor Sport, or Shooting, should be investigated, so we identify the root cause. I would certainly hope all competitors in USPSA would encourage finding out the facts in this case. I don't think anyone in this thread would disagree with that (I sure hope not). But If any changes were developed, such that the risk of a future similar incident is reduced, providing enjoyment of the sport by all is not unreasonably impacted, I would hope they would be adopted. Obviously everybody has their own level of acceptable risk; I'll manage mine, and I would not presume to tell anyone else how to manage theirs.

EDIT TO ADD

* I was fiddling around with my USPSA rig this morning and it occurred to me I could add some contrast by hitting the top edges of the holster with silver sharpie. Intent is to add a bit of additional visibility as I look down on the holster action at a match:

62993

Zincwarrior
11-10-2020, 11:58 AM
Yes, in open and limited, lim10 since day one. And as I cited earlier, the culture in the sport around creating light performance triggers and guns that are easy to shoot, has for decades lead to people removing or disabling the mechanisms that were designed to make guns drop safe, and putting in place action jobs that themselves might make the sear/hammer mechanism susceptible to failing if dropped on a hard surface.

While I no longer shoot limited or open, and sold those off, I personally did or had prominent well known racegun gunsmiths do all of the above to my various open and limited guns over the years.

While there may be rules in production division that are supposed to prevent the removal of things like trigger/striker block safeties everybody knows there are some competitors who do. Nobody inspects guns at a club match.

For those not in open or familiar with that, why would someone do that? What is the benefit? This is not a criticism, but a question.
For reference I shoot Production with a Sig X Five. What would be the benefit of removing a safety?

foxj66
11-10-2020, 12:04 PM
For those not in open or familiar with that, why would someone do that? What is the benefit? This is not a criticism, but a question.
For reference I shoot Production with a Sig X Five. What would be the benefit of removing a safety?

I can answer from the 1911/2011 standpoint. I always removed/deactivated the grip safeties on my comp guns because with a high grip they are not reliable for my hand size, but I have large hands and generally get slide bite on 1911/2011s as well.

Glenn E. Meyer
11-10-2020, 12:10 PM
How many rifles and shotguns do you think are drop safe in all of the 3Gun, 2Gun, and PRS matches around the country?

Running around with loaded guns is dangerous. As is pretty much anything in life worth doing. This is obviously a tragedy, and we should try to prevent it from happening again, but no amount of rule-making will eliminate the possibility of a fatality in a sport that involves running around with loaded guns.

What is frightening is seeing a sling screw up and drop the gun on the ground. Seen that.

littlejerry
11-10-2020, 12:37 PM
What is frightening is seeing a sling screw up and drop the gun on the ground. Seen that.

Agreed. And on rifles there are so many people who have <2lb single stage triggers, and they often forget to flip on the safety when running between positions.

In the Run'n'gun biathlons I compete in this is compounded with people being hot, exhausted, and dehydrated. I RO'd the last stage of a 10k run in GA last August. Half the competitors were delerious from heat exhaustion when they ran up to my stage.

Wheeler
11-10-2020, 12:57 PM
You guess some guy could?

1. The Sig wasn't recalled. It was a voluntary "upgrade."
2. CZ Shadow and other 75 series and their clones for one (or for several). Any number of others that may have been modified and are no longer drop safe but have safeties intact. Any number of others that are thought to be drop safe but haven't had a blogger figured out they aren't. (kind like with the Sig.)

No, what I think is disingenuous is to say "Don't look at IDPA. They have a rule against it." when we both know the rule is isn't enforced and is in fact unenforceable.

Of course you think it's disingenuous, as you change what I said to suit whatever argument you're trying to have. I never said the rule was enforceable, as a matter of fact I sort of pointed that out in my previous post.

I get where you're going with this and don't really disagree, but I'm not going to engage in a continuous circular argument with you where the salient points keep changing. Cheers.

Mark D
11-10-2020, 01:23 PM
This will rustle some feathers, but I have noticed that a number of competitors at my local matches are:

1. Not particularly safety conscious (speed holstering, ultra light triggers, etc.)
2. Focused on competitive shooting, and not interested or even aware of aspects of gun handling relating to defensive or tactical applications (i.e. dudes with tricked out race guns who don't even bother getting a CCW license).

For this subset of folks, competitive shooting is ballistic golf, a fun hobby. They seem to overlook the fact that their guns are lethal tools. Their safety habits often reflect that. Most of these folks have never taken a class. ETA: one of these guys recently put a bullet through his leg at a local match. Nice guy, long-time member and decent shooter, but crappy gun handling skills.

(Mandatory caveat: Yes, there's a lot of competitive shooters with tactical pedigrees and/or a solid understanding that guns are defensive tools. I'm not talking about them.)

Eyesquared
11-10-2020, 02:37 PM
This will rustle some feathers, but I have noticed that a number of competitors at my local matches are:

1. Not particularly safety conscious (speed holstering, ultra light triggers, etc.)
2. Focused on competitive shooting, and not interested or even aware of aspects of gun handling relating to defensive or tactical applications (i.e. dudes with tricked out race guns who don't even bother getting a CCW license).

For this subset of folks, competitive shooting is ballistic golf, a fun hobby. They seem to overlook the fact that their guns are lethal tools. Their safety habits often reflect that. Most of these folks have never taken a class. ETA: one of these guys recently put a bullet through his leg at a local match. Nice guy, long-time member and decent shooter, but crappy gun handling skills.

(Mandatory caveat: Yes, there's a lot of competitive shooters with tactical pedigrees and/or a solid understanding that guns are defensive tools. I'm not talking about them.)

In my experience having the mindset that guns are defensive tools has no real correlation with good or bad safety practices. I have met plenty of people who carry guns who have absolutely terrible habits and lax mindset regarding safety. This forum is probably the only place online where people are generally realistic about the fact that an accident could happen to them if they don't follow some common sense best practices.

ranger
11-10-2020, 03:09 PM
If USPSA safety concerns you - do not go to the clay pigeon sports as you will be swept etc. regularly

GJM
11-10-2020, 03:12 PM
If USPSA safety concerns you - do not go to the clay pigeon sports as you will be swept etc. regularly

Yes, but those shotguns are unloaded.

Bergeron
11-10-2020, 03:27 PM
If USPSA safety concerns you - do not go to the clay pigeon sports as you will be swept etc. regularly

I'd like to gently push back on this. Back in the early aughties, I was a member of my University's clay shooting team, and also shot regularly at the local clays range. I was always favorably impressed with the muzzle discipline that I experienced.

There's not really any ways to verify drop safety across multiple types of guns and divisions, and I personally think that the rules mandating against trying to grab a dropped gun are good ideas.

The safest match is one that is never shot. Because we are going to shoot, there will be risks. The absolute rarity of this sort of occurrence speaks to the quality of the safety rules already in place. I don't know what sort of productive and realistic additional rules could be put into place, and while we should study and learn from this tragedy, there is no absolutely safe course of action for anything in life.

Duelist
11-10-2020, 03:29 PM
Yes, but those shotguns are unloaded.

And it’s perfectly f.i.n.e. that they rest those unloaded shotguns muzzle down on top of their feet. Why would you think that’s dangerous? :rolleyes: it’s so funny that you think that’s dangerous, Duelist. SMH.

Some of those guys even lace a muzzle resting device into their bootlace to make this very safe practice even easier. :eek:

But G-d forbid the safety nazi (with an inordinate amount of influence over how the range is run) from the shotgun range drive by an action pistol match and see something he disagrees with, or even worse, sees a picture from a match with someone moving while shooting.

Dude has chased more than one fun match out. Saying anything about shotgun safety practices in his presence might get you ejected. Yelled at, at the least.

olstyn
11-10-2020, 03:52 PM
And it’s perfectly f.i.n.e. that they rest those unloaded shotguns muzzle down on top of their feet. Why would you think that’s dangerous? :rolleyes: it’s so funny that you think that’s dangerous, Duelist. SMH.

Some of those guys even lace a muzzle resting device into their bootlace to make this very safe practice even easier. :eek:

But G-d forbid the safety nazi (with an inordinate amount of influence over how the range is run) from the shotgun range drive by an action pistol match and see something he disagrees with, or even worse, sees a picture from a match with someone moving while shooting.

Dude has chased more than one fun match out. Saying anything about shotgun safety practices in his presence might get you ejected. Yelled at, at the least.

Yeah, that stuff is just dumb. I mean, sure, with a break action gun, I guess there's no real risk as long as the gun is open because you can both see that it's empty and it's incapable of firing while open, but that doesn't mean that the muzzle isn't placed such that it would quite literally obliterate your foot if it was able to discharge, and it certainly creates a VERY bad habit should a different style of gun ever be used. Is it really so terribly difficult to actually hold a shotgun? I mean, I know they're not made of feathers, but they're also not absurdly heavy...

GJM
11-10-2020, 03:58 PM
Here is the question I always ask myself — when I get the crap kicked out of me at a USPSA match by some guy with zero tactical knowledge, who would not know Doc’s list from a shopping list, do I feel better or worse about myself?

cheby
11-10-2020, 06:02 PM
Here is the question I always ask myself — when I get the crap kicked out of me at a USPSA match by some guy with zero tactical knowledge, who would not know Doc’s list from a shopping list, do I feel better or worse about myself?

Those are two different sets of skills as we know. Learning tactics is much easier than learning how to shoot well BTW.

Clusterfrack
11-10-2020, 06:23 PM
Those are two different sets of skills as we know. Learning tactics is much easier than learning how to shoot well BTW.

I used to think so, but after working with some very skilled professionals I don’t anymore. Learning to fight with a gun is at least as difficult. Happy to talk offline about that.

HCM
11-10-2020, 06:40 PM
Those are two different sets of skills as we know. Learning tactics is much easier than learning how to shoot well BTW.


I used to think so, but after working with some very skilled professionals I don’t anymore. Learning to fight with a gun is at least as difficult. Happy to talk offline about that.

Very much this ^^^.

The first tactics instructor class I attended, the lead instructor set our expectations thus: "When I first got on the team, I attended and 80 hour SWAT school and had more questions about tactics at the end of it than when I started."

cheby
11-10-2020, 07:12 PM
Very much this ^^^.

The first tactics instructor class I attended, the lead instructor set our expectations thus: "When I first got on the team, I attended and 80 hour SWAT school and had more questions about tactics at the end of it than when I started."
Perhaps I am wrong. And how do we really measure that?

But… 80 hours sounds like absolutely nothing to develop any meaningful skill. ZILCH. The guys who are serious about shooting dry fire every day, shoot several times a week and spend easily 2000 hours a year doing that. For many years. Probably way more taking into consideration reading about it and analyzing it. It is a second fucking job consuming all the resources and time. Some can get better enough to compete on a high level. Most cannot. It takes years (5 years minimum) to get there assuming we overcome age limitation and practice the right stuff. 80 hours with all due respect is nothing

YVK
11-10-2020, 07:33 PM
Again, I would really like to find out "what happened" in this tragic case, rather than go off to develop some half-baked solution to a non-existent problem. But I feel terrible for the families involved.

This is what was posted on Enos as a clarification

The gun was a CZ with hammer down after make ready. That TYPICALLY says Production/CO. Gun missed holster and fell onto concrete indoor range floor with hammer striking the floor causing the gun to fire upwards striking the RO.

I've seen a lot of stuff at ranges and I've done stupid shit myself. This year alone was rich, seeing a dude hanging an AR on his tac mole (tactical training stuff, no games) by the trigger and safety at the same time, driving 3-4 rounds into the floor, and another dude shooting 2 inches off his foot because his game holster can trigger a shot if you wiggle a gun in. I've seen enough but I've never seen "gun missing the holster", especially those dropped and offset buckets we use for games. Firing pin block would've prevented that but it is a 100% shooter's error.

HCM
11-10-2020, 07:59 PM
Perhaps I am wrong. And how do we really measure that?

But… 80 hours sounds like absolutely nothing to develop any meaningful skill. ZILCH. The guys who are serious about shooting dry fire every day, shoot several times a week and spend easily 2000 hours a year doing that. For many years. Probably way more taking into consideration reading about it and analyzing it. It is a second fucking job consuming all the resources and time. Some can get better enough to compete on a high level. Most cannot. It takes years (5 years minimum) to get there assuming we overcome age limitation and practice the right stuff. 80 hours with all due respect is nothing

You are wrong in terms of your original comment.

What is your back ground in tactics ?

Action shooting sports require developing three primary skill sets - shooting (which can be a rabbit hole in itself) , moving, and in some games stage planning which is has some similarity to individual tactics, though a one sided version.

Actual tactics requires shooting, moving and individual tactics but also requires communicating, group tactics (coordinating with 2 or more) and accounting for the actions of an opposing will.

Kind of like practicing hitting bags and pads isn't the same as sparring.

As for the 80 hours thing.. that was the point. 80 hours was just enough to get somewhere in between conscious incompetence and conscious competence i.e. realize you have more questions than answers. You get the answers (and better questions) by putting in the work aka practice.

In this post you are conflating training with practice. You don't develop skills in training, you develop them in practice.

The 80 hours is where you are exposed to things for you to go practice. After an 80 hour school, most LE SWAT guys get 3 to 5 days a month of "training" after that but most of that is actually practice, not training. There are somethings in tactics you can practice on your own and somethings you can't. Full time, higher level groups will train and practice full time when not doing real world operations.

Same with shooting. Unless you are GJM, you don't spend 2,000 hours (or even 80 hours) with Ben Steoger, Steve Anderson or at Manny Bragg working on USPSA skills. You spend 16 or 24 hours training with them then you go practice what you learned in class to develop your skills.

olstyn
11-10-2020, 08:11 PM
This is what was posted on Enos as a clarification

The gun was a CZ with hammer down after make ready. That TYPICALLY says Production/CO. Gun missed holster and fell onto concrete indoor range floor with hammer striking the floor causing the gun to fire upwards striking the RO.

[SIZE=3]

So probably a case of the shooter not looking the gun into the holster, and somebody else died as a result. That's going to be tough to live with.

Rocky Racoon
11-10-2020, 08:23 PM
Of course you think it's disingenuous, as you change what I said to suit whatever argument you're trying to have. I never said the rule was enforceable, as a matter of fact I sort of pointed that out in my previous post.

I get where you're going with this and don't really disagree, but I'm not going to engage in a continuous circular argument with you where the salient points keep changing. Cheers.

One thing I know is that rarely does anyone concede a point on the internet. And you are no exception. You arent going to concede that you were wrong about the Sig and other non-drop safe pistols in IDPA. And I don’t guess you are going to concede anything about the usefulness or lack thereof of the IDPA rule book. That’s fine.

And I quoted you. I didn’t change anything you wrote.

Bottom line - if the report on Benos is accurate, (hammer down CZ dropped on the ground), the same accident could have happened in IDPA just as it happened in USPSA.

No need to come back and tell me you are done.

Wendell
11-10-2020, 08:56 PM
I've no idea what happened in New York, but I see way too many ill-fitting holsters and way too much casual gun handling. (Speed holstering, open-handing, leg-pointing, lock-forgetting, etc.) Most of the time most present blindly overlook these issues. Say something, and then you're (regarded as) the bad guy.

I think that every match should involve a holster test stage, and every instance of a gun falling out of a holster should be a DQ, not just in a course of fire.

JSGlock34
11-10-2020, 09:23 PM
While deaths at USPSA matches are uncommon, we have had people killed or injured by ricochets, bullets passing through gaps in berms, grabbing (drop safe) pistols that were falling, and accidental discharges when moving or holstering...That said, deaths from crashes to or from the match, or from heart attacks during the match are surely way more common than deaths like what happened in NY at the match.

I don't disagree with any of this...but I like to see data. Does anyone know if USPSA collects safety incident reports? Do they publish anything?

YVK
11-10-2020, 09:29 PM
Here is the question I always ask myself — when I get the crap kicked out of me at a USPSA match by some guy with zero tactical knowledge, who would not know Doc’s list from a shopping list, do I feel better or worse about myself?

I feel worse but I don't show that and I put them in place by displaying a tattoo with my official FAST time and wearing my light pin attached to my RSS hat.

cheby
11-10-2020, 09:42 PM
I feel worse but I don't show that and I put them in place by displaying a tattoo with my official FAST time and wearing my light pin attached to my RSS hat.

LOL

Coyotesfan97
11-10-2020, 09:53 PM
Perhaps I am wrong. And how do we really measure that?

But… 80 hours sounds like absolutely nothing to develop any meaningful skill. ZILCH. The guys who are serious about shooting dry fire every day, shoot several times a week and spend easily 2000 hours a year doing that. For many years. Probably way more taking into consideration reading about it and analyzing it. It is a second fucking job consuming all the resources and time. Some can get better enough to compete on a high level. Most cannot. It takes years (5 years minimum) to get there assuming we overcome age limitation and practice the right stuff. 80 hours with all due respect is nothing


My old team’s basic SWAT school is 80+ hours. It runs eight days. It’s part of the testing. Recruits have to successfully complete it to continue in the selection process. They’re evaluated and if then they go on a rated list for selection when there are openings. Tactical Officers In Training are on probation for a year. They are required to attend and pass a 40 hour HRT class. They have to attend and pass a 40 hour SCBA class. They have to attend training for 10 hours every week. Guess who gets every shitty detail, preparation, and clean up for every training day and operation. That means getting there early and leaving late. Now add in every operation they go to because they are learning the job on actual ops too. Guess who’s in a fishbowl for a year with every team member watching them for FTO debrief at the end of every training day and operation.


At the end of the year the Team votes whether to keep them on the Team. Assuming they get their pin congrats new guy your SWAT career has just begun. The 80 hour school is a drop in the bucket. It’s an introduction that just introduces and touches the surface of multiple areas that take years to develop journeyman skill.

GJM
11-10-2020, 09:54 PM
I don't disagree with any of this...but I like to see data. Does anyone know if USPSA collects safety incident reports? Do they publish anything?

I am pretty sure neither USPSA nor their insurance company wants this info published.

DDTSGM
11-10-2020, 10:08 PM
Some of those guys even lace a muzzle resting device into their bootlace to make this very safe practice even easier. :eek:

You know you want one::

https://secureservercdn.net/45.40.155.175/06b.893.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/351-e1429304668737.jpg?time=1605063417

https://boytharness.com/product/gun-toe-rest/

At our gun club you used to get nicely asked to leave after one warning about resting an unbroken o/u shotgun on your toe pad, and told right away to cease and desist if it is semi or pump, even if the action is open.

They are a remnant of the 'old days.'

BigT
11-11-2020, 02:49 AM
This will rustle some feathers, but I have noticed that a number of competitors at my local matches are:

1. Not particularly safety conscious (speed holstering, ultra light triggers, etc.)
2. Focused on competitive shooting, and not interested or even aware of aspects of gun handling relating to defensive or tactical applications (i.e. dudes with tricked out race guns who don't even bother getting a CCW license).

For this subset of folks, competitive shooting is ballistic golf, a fun hobby. They seem to overlook the fact that their guns are lethal tools. Their safety habits often reflect that. Most of these folks have never taken a class. ETA: one of these guys recently put a bullet through his leg at a local match. Nice guy, long-time member and decent shooter, but crappy gun handling skills.

(Mandatory caveat: Yes, there's a lot of competitive shooters with tactical pedigrees and/or a solid understanding that guns are defensive tools. I'm not talking about them.)


My experience has been 180 degrees to that. Most gaymergfags , whether they consider the blaster a sports bat and nothing more or who are also defensively orientated, are pretty serious about safety. I see more guys decked out in plate carriers doing stupid things , because"big boy rules"

Im' not sure how light triggers on a piece of gear made for a game where light triggers are beneficial , are "not particularly safety conscious"?


For the record I'm a gaymerfag timmy crossover who plays games to win at the games, and does defensive stuff to shoot people better while understanding what will benefit both and what is specific.

Wise_A
11-11-2020, 03:46 AM
I really like the suggestion someone else made earlier in the thread regarding requiring competitors to actually look at their holsters when holstering; I believe that doing things that way would eliminate a large % of the chance of this occurring.

You reminded me of a time when I was goofing off with my 629. I had a new holster for it, and was out at the club range "practicing"--by which I mean shooting from a holster, having fun, developing zero practical skills. Anyways, I was reholstering slowly, looking the gun into the holster, and started off drawing slowly as well. I had a blast.

At the time, I was also on the club's Board--and less than half the age of the next youngest member. A particularly old-timer with the annoying habit of "policing" the range--despite having no formal training, not even as much as an NRA RSO card--came up to me after a meeting. He complained, loudly, about "some young fool" shooting a "big shiny revolver" at the pistol range, and "reholstering slowly, like he didn't know what he was doing" and so on about how we had to do something about the young guys, etc etc.

I very slowly explained that there was no need to rush the reholstering process, and that absent a threat, there was no reason not to look the gun into the holster. I went on about all the things that can happen while reholstering, that could be prevented just by looking at what you're doing. He continued, and so I mentioned that I also got a very nice stainless .44 recently, and a matching holster. When he still didn't catch on--by now most of the room was suppressing laughter--I said that as a credentialed safety instructor, I thought the young man in question was a paragon of gun handling, with exquisite taste in firearms, possessed of extraordinary temperance and good judgment, and that the next time the complainant saw him, he should get his name so we might recognize his dedication to safety and award him a lifetime membership.

He never realized his mistake, and would in fact go on to approach me at the range several times while I was speaking with other members, and demand that I sign the guest book. In any case, he's since died, of being 400 pounds and nearly 80 years old. I never did see him with a gun in his hand.

Bucky
11-11-2020, 06:05 AM
This is what was posted on Enos as a clarification

The gun was a CZ with hammer down after make ready. That TYPICALLY says Production/CO. Gun missed holster and fell onto concrete indoor range floor with hammer striking the floor causing the gun to fire upwards striking the RO.


Here’s an interesting caveat. USPSA requires that all DA / SA guns start with the hammer down unless they have a decocker. IIRC, CZ used to recommend carrying at half cock. Even the decocker versions of the CZ lower to half cock, correct? Seems to me this may be a safer method.

I’ve been shooting a CZ for two years now. Since the beginning, I’ve advocated that CZs should be allowed to stop at half cock. This was not to gain any supposed advantage, but I just thought manually lowering the safety would be safer if only going to half cock, since you don’t need to hold the trigger back for as long.

Even after two years, I’m still uncomfortable manually lowering the safety. Perhaps that’s a good thing, since it might keep me more focused and careful.

RJ
11-11-2020, 06:13 AM
Stolen from Chuck Haggard’s book face page.

"There is not a single human out there that has not made mistakes, is not making mistakes, or will not make mistakes in the future. A true professional sheds his ego when he works with firearms. If anything, he thanks those who have pointed out a discrepancy in his safety protocols. Set aside the ego and you will ensure your safety and lose nothing in the process." ~ Scott Reitz in _The Art of Modern Gunfighting_

www.agiletactical.com

I should probably read this book.

RJ
11-11-2020, 06:56 AM
Ok, I do have an equipment question related to this topic.

Please forgive my wording, as I've explained, I'm new to guns in 2014 and may not be expressing this right.

Apparently from the benos discussion, the gun was a CZ Shadow, which is a DA/SA without a Firing Pin Block? With regard to start position, do I understand correctly for DA/SA guns, that the start position is chambered, with the hammer down i.e. not cocked nor at half cock?

From previous discussion on 1911s for example, the normal "holstered" mode from what I understand (I've never owned one) is cocked, safety on. The gun is drawn (engaging the grip safety), thumb safety flipped off, and presented to the target. A shot may or may not be taken. On holstering, the gun (still cocked) thumb's safety is flipped on, and the gun is holstered. The gun returns to being holstered, cocked, with safety on. Is that the same for CZ Shadows?

Were guns like this, without a Firing Pin Block, designed to be carried chambered, *and* hammer down?

Does having the hammer down on a chambered DA/SA gun, without a FPB, make it more, or less, drop safe?

Like I said, I may be confused in my question, so if you could set me straight on anything in the premise I'd appreciate it. This incident is really bugging me. I feel terrible for all involved.

GJM
11-11-2020, 07:12 AM
Ok, I do have an equipment question related to this topic.

Please forgive my wording, as I've explained, I'm new to guns in 2014 and may not be expressing this right.

Apparently from the benos discussion, the gun was a CZ Shadow, which is a DA/SA without a Firing Pin Block? With regard to start position, do I understand correctly for DA/SA guns, that the start position is chambered, with the hammer down i.e. not cocked nor at half cock?

From previous discussion on 1911s for example, the normal "holstered" mode from what I understand (I've never owned one) is cocked, safety on. The gun is drawn (engaging the grip safety), thumb safety flipped off, and presented to the target. A shot may or may not be taken. On holstering, the gun (still cocked) thumb's safety is flipped on, and the gun is holstered. The gun returns to being holstered, cocked, with safety on. Is that the same for CZ Shadows?

Were guns like this, without a Firing Pin Block, designed to be carried chambered, *and* hammer down?

Does having the hammer down on a chambered DA/SA gun, without a FPB, make it more, or less, drop safe?

Like I said, I may be confused in my question, so if you could set me straight on anything in the premise I'd appreciate it. This incident is really bugging me. I feel terrible for all involved.

In USPSA Production and Carry Optics, the DA/SA starts with the hammer fully down (if it is in half cock you would be moved to Open).

RJ
11-11-2020, 07:22 AM
In USPSA Production and Carry Optics, the DA/SA starts with the hammer fully down (if it is in half cock you would be moved to Open).

Thanks GJM but that wasn't what I was asking.

Let me try again.

If you have a DA/SA gun without a FPB, is it (drop) safer with the hammer down or hammer cocked?

From what I understand on DA/SA guns that start hammer down, you draw then have a heavy first press as the hammer is cocked; after that you have a lighter second shot and all subsequent second shots. If you want to holster, you lower the hammer (decocker?) and/or engage the safety, then holster.

I guess I'm trying to understand the "correct" concept of operations and sequence of shooting envisaged by the designers of guns like the CZ Shadow (or I guess Series 70 1911s?) that do not have a FPB. I'm not trying to advocate changing USPSA rules, and I am absolutely not saying anyone should not use a CZ Shadow without a FPB, since we don't really know what happened in this incident yet.

GJM
11-11-2020, 07:34 AM
Thanks GJM but that wasn't what I was asking.

Let me try again.

If you have a DA/SA gun without a FPB, is it (drop) safer with the hammer down or hammer cocked?

From what I understand on DA/SA guns that start hammer down, you draw then have a heavy first press as the hammer is cocked; after that you have a lighter second shot and all subsequent second shots. If you want to holster, you lower the hammer (decocker?) and/or engage the safety, then holster.

I guess I'm trying to understand the "correct" concept of operations and sequence of shooting envisaged by the designers of guns like the CZ Shadow (or I guess Series 70 1911s?) that do not have a FPB. I'm not trying to advocate changing USPSA rules, and I am absolutely not saying anyone should not use a CZ Shadow without a FPB, since we don't really know what happened in this incident yet.

In USPSA, generally the only time a loaded pistol is holstered is at make ready, and the pistol is unloaded before being holstered after shots are fired.

There is so much fiddling with parts, like extended firing pins and reduced power springs, that I am not sure “what the designer intended,” really matters. I am pretty sure that when the CZ system was originally designed, the designer didn’t think “Production.”

olstyn
11-11-2020, 08:07 AM
If you have a DA/SA gun without a FPB, is it (drop) safer with the hammer down or hammer cocked?

If we specify that your theoretical pistol lands directly on its hammer as the CZ in question seems to have, the answer is probably that it's safer cocked and with the safety (if present) engaged. Cocked means that you can't have the force of the impact transferred through the hammer into the firing pin causing the primer to ignite. Safety on would, depending on the system, hopefully prevent the trigger from moving to the rear due to inertia from its own mass overcoming the springs. At that point, it becomes a question of whether it's possible for the impact to trip the sear, and if so, whether there's anything (half cock notch, etc.) to prevent the hammer from falling all the way.

Ultimately, though, I'd rather have a modern design with a FPB present regardless.

Bucky
11-11-2020, 08:17 AM
I guess I'm trying to understand the "correct" concept of operations and sequence of shooting envisaged by the designers of guns like the CZ Shadow (or I guess Series 70 1911s?) that do not have a FPB. I'm not trying to advocate changing USPSA rules, and I am absolutely not saying anyone should not use a CZ Shadow without a FPB, since we don't really know what happened in this incident yet.

Maybe we should. IF starting at half cock makes the gun more safe, than it should be allowed. IMO, it would make the gun slightly more safe in the make ready, and would probably even change the way I make ready.

jetfire
11-11-2020, 08:32 AM
I don't disagree with any of this...but I like to see data. Does anyone know if USPSA collects safety incident reports? Do they publish anything?

I'm sure GJM with his vastly superior competition experience will be along to tell me all about the stacks of bodies he's seen at matches, but when I was researching this story I found exactly one incident of a fatal shooting in the last 10 years, and that was at an IPSC match in Canada.

The fact is that an accidental/negligent death at a shooting match is always going to be news, because dead bodies where you don't expect there to be dead bodies is automatically news. But doing a deep dive into search terms around stuff like this hasn't really turned up squat.

fatdog
11-11-2020, 08:34 AM
No idea if this incident was an inertia fire.

There have been several people who studied the phenomenon of interia fire over the years that I have read about. I know Pat Sweeney was one. I think this is always done using a primed empty case in the chamber and dropping the gun on hard surfaces from various heights.

By inertia fire, I am referring to the ability of the inertia of the firing pin alone, when the gun is dropped and lands on a hard surface in a perfect vertical orientation, to move enough under its own inertia to overcome the firing pin spring, and strike the primer with enough force to fire. Obviously an in place functioning FPB prevents this but a lot of designs never had those in the first place.

For the early S&W gen 1 autos, M39, M59 it is possible to make this happen if it hits just right with enough force because those guns have big massive heavy firing pins that can overcome the spring. I am familiar with such an incident that injured the owner back in the 1970's. S&W corrected it with the FPB in later versions.

For the 1911 tribe original design it is supposed to be possible, Sweeney could not replicate it in the experiment he tried. I think his conclusion was if the firing pin spring is strong, you have to get to greater heights that those we normally handle guns at. Heights like >10 feet in the tests I have read about, and of course it has to hit in a perfect vertical orientation. If you add an extra power firing pin spring and a Ti firing pin to those 1911's it becomes very difficult to produce an inertia fire. Theoretically we are talking bad car crashes with G forces acting in the perfect vector with the firing pin to make one go off.

I don't have one of these CZ's with the free float firing pin and I am not familiar with how heavy the pin is in that design. Just wondering if an inertia fire is possible with that "perfect drop" that gave the firing pin the perfect G force vector.

Extended firing pins designed to product more reliable ignition, and old or weak firing pin springs would theoretically up the odds for a gun's ability to produce an inertia fire if it has no FPB. I guess a decocked hammer that was struck and slipped off the sear would also add some momentum to the firing pin even with that short travel distance.

JHC
11-11-2020, 08:40 AM
I'm sure GJM with his vastly superior competition experience will be along to tell me all about the stacks of bodies he's seen at matches, but when I was researching this story I found exactly one incident of a fatal shooting in the last 10 years, and that was at an IPSC match in Canada.

The fact is that an accidental/negligent death at a shooting match is always going to be news, because dead bodies where you don't expect there to be dead bodies is automatically news. But doing a deep dive into search terms around stuff like this hasn't really turned up squat.

Prolly not. He posted here a few days ago about how rare mishaps are. Especially vs risks of driving to matches or heart disease.

fatdog
11-11-2020, 08:53 AM
I'm sure GJM with his vastly exactly one incident of a fatal shooting in the last 10 years, and that was at an IPSC match in Canada. .

There was a bystander fatality about 20 years ago at a USPSA match in the midwest. The incident was taught as part of the USPSA RO school back when dinosaurs roamed and John Amidon was teaching those schools. The cause was a compromised berm that allowed a round to penetrate, then ricochet and strike an adolescent male who was at the range but not present in that berm in the head, killing him instantly. John taught the incident to emphasize the importance of inspecting the integrity of berms during set up before a match. Brush was concealing the berm defect in that case.

It is indeed rare, and that one was a freakish accident.

GJM
11-11-2020, 09:01 AM
Prolly not. He posted here a few days ago about how rare mishaps are. Especially vs risks of driving to matches or heart disease.

I seem to recall a USPSA competitor killed a year or two ago in California when a round passed through an imperfection in a berm during a match.

In terms of my vast competition creds, a place I definitely destroy Caleb is my attempt to kill someone at a USPSA match — I shot two whole magazines at another competitor down range and we both lived.

jetfire
11-11-2020, 09:02 AM
There was a bystander fatality about 20 years ago at a USPSA match in the midwest. The incident was taught as part of the USPSA RO school back when dinosaurs roamed and John Amidon was teaching those schools. The cause was a compromised berm that allowed a round to penetrate, then ricochet and strike an adolescent male who was at the range but not present in that berm in the head, killing him instantly. John taught the incident to emphasize the importance of inspecting the integrity of berms during set up before a match. Brush was concealing the berm defect in that case.

It is indeed rare, and that one was a freakish accident.

Which reinforces the general point that actually shooting the match is far safer than driving to the match.

RJ
11-11-2020, 09:17 AM
^ Can't argue with any of this. Driving, Flying on a commercial aircraft, etc. are all very likely demonstrably safer than attending a USPSA match.

I'd point out a nuance to the risk assessment; that in making a choice to book a ticket or get in your car, I think you are most likely reasonably informed about the risk involved, yet make the choice anyway.

What strikes me as a (relatively) new competitor is that I was unaware of the possibility that guns used in competition might not be drop safe. I mean, I always assumed that you'd have to be an idiot to carry a gun that wasn't. The whole "drop gate" on the Sig P320 affected my buying decision, in that I decided to just carry on with Glocks for carry and competition, as imperfect as they are, because of the (relatively) safe design. I'm not saying that decision is correct for anyone else, but it was for me. For competition, its clear to me now that some chose a gun that is not drop safe, because: reasons, and have done for years.

So now that I understand the risks involved in shooting USPSA better, my behavior on a stage is going to chance somewhat, doing the things I mentioned above (be more aware of position on the stage, carry a TQ, IFAK, etc.)

I definitely agree I'm taking more risk going over the bridge to Clearwater to shoot a match at my local club, than actually shooting a stage. It's just after a professional engineering career involving a lot of formal Risk Management processes, I kinda approach it from a Risk X Probability point of view; the risk may be very small, but multiplied by the consequence (death or serious injury), if there's an easy set of things I can do to avoid it, I will. I don't plan to stop shooting USPSA, and I'm not advocating any rules changes, and I'm certainly not here to say someone should not shoot their specific gun within the rules.

fatdog
11-11-2020, 09:24 AM
I hope we finally hear the root cause.

I think the salient point made earlier in the thread is important, this is a sport with risks. There are lots of things done to mitigate those risks already.

As for doing more, equipment control might improve safety.

But it is almost like Nascar imposing the restrictor plates (because so many of their stars were getting killed), it can take away from equipment performance and change the dynamic of the sport, and would be very difficult and perhaps almost impossible to enforce for USPSA. MD's and course designers use a lot of imagination to make stages challenging and fun, and there are already a lot of guidelines from hard lessons learned. I don't see that aspect of the sport getting reeled in.

One of the reasons I dropped out of being a MD for club matches and being on the working staff at the AL sectional some years ago was the complete lack of liability coverage for MD's, RO's, and match officials.

Sure the clubs had NRA liability policies, but a close read told me that that personal liability coverage was for only the officers and board of the club itself, and the club if it was incorporated.

There is no, none, zip individual insurance coverage for USPSA, IDPA, Steel Challenge MD's, RO's provided by the parent national shooting organizations at that time, and none provided by the club policies that I have actually read. That scared me away from stage design work, range master, and working matches as a official RO. I quit taking the tests and let my certification expire. I enjoyed it, but financially it no longer fit my risk profile.

If that has changed I am unaware of it. We just had one of our attorney's who is also a USPSA competitor (his practice is insurance defense counsel) read our policies and investigate the whole subject this summer, and his conclusion was you better have a good personal liability umbrella and hope they don't have provisions that allow them to take exception to your work as an RO/SO or MD.

ST911
11-11-2020, 09:25 AM
I don't disagree with any of this...but I like to see data. Does anyone know if USPSA collects safety incident reports? Do they publish anything?


I am pretty sure neither USPSA nor their insurance company wants this info published.

For you guys or anyone else that can answer, @jetfire (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=67), etc. Thinking about reports and data...

What are the thresholds for generating a safety incident report to the national body? Does it vary much between orgs or levels of matches?

What do you think the actual reliability and compliance of club reporting is?

Is there a designated person responsible for monitoring, collecting, reviewing reports, interfacing with outside investigators, etc?

jetfire
11-11-2020, 09:32 AM
I've never been a club director for either of the major sanctioning bodies, so I can't speak to that without any research.

vaglocker
11-11-2020, 09:46 AM
Maybe I missed it somewhere in the thread but do we know where the RO was hit? Wondering how many ROs either at matches or ranges choose to wear at least soft armor for safety.

RJ
11-11-2020, 09:53 AM
Maybe I missed it somewhere in the thread but do we know where the RO was hit? Wondering how many ROs either at matches or ranges choose to wear at least soft armor for safety.

AFAIK this information has not been posted, here, or anywhere else I am following this discussion.

I routinely see ROs wearing what appear to be plate carriers monitoring the public line at local indoor ranges (Shooters World, Tampa; Shoot Straight, Clearwater) I frequent. As to what they actually have, inserted into these vests, I have no idea. As regards Shoot Straight, in particular, we've had multiple incidents of people committing suicide in the last few years, so the concept of a round coming your way is not academic, at least around here.

From 2013:

https://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/pinellas-park-police-investigate-suicide-at-gun-range/2154047/

"Authorities are investigating the suicide of a man they say rented a firearm from a gun range, then performed target practice before turning the weapon on himself.

The shooting happened about 3 p.m. Saturday at Shoot Straight..."

From 2009:

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna30109090

"A central Florida woman who fatally shot her son then killed herself at a shooting range wrote in suicide notes to her boyfriend that she was trying to save her son."

Zincwarrior
11-11-2020, 09:54 AM
Maybe I missed it somewhere in the thread but do we know where the RO was hit? Wondering how many ROs either at matches or ranges choose to wear at least soft armor for safety.

Outside of our police range, I have never heard of a match RO/SO wearing body armor. We're not getting paid here. If it's dangerous we're not doing it.

YVK
11-11-2020, 10:25 AM
In terms of my vast competition creds, a place I definitely destroy Caleb is my attempt to kill someone at a USPSA match — I shot two whole magazines at another competitor down range and we both lived.

Should've shot a major PF, maybe he would've gone down then.



What strikes me as a (relatively) new competitor is that I was unaware of the possibility that guns used in competition might not be drop safe. I mean, I always assumed that you'd have to be an idiot to carry a gun that wasn't. The whole "drop gate" on the Sig P320 affected my buying decision

There's was a nicely done experiment with a series 70 1911, posted on old Yam's website over 10 years ago. Showed a pretty good rate of primer ignition when gun was dropped, yet I've not heard too many people bringing this up as a reason to ditch 1911s for carry. It is not only about stakes, but also odds: I don't think I've heard of duty grade 1911 going off that way, and in that experiment it had to be dropped from a decent height and straight on muzzle.
The 320, at least in my mind, was in the league of its own from the probabilities standpoint: it had been on the market for a few years only when multiple sources reported the problem and several people claimed injuries.

That said, I own probably the only 1911 that had been converted from series 70 to 80, and I've just replaced extended firing pins on my CZ slides that still had them, so there's that...


Wondering how many ROs either at matches or ranges choose to wear at least soft armor for safety.

'round here they wouldn't wear a face mask even when suggested to, what body armor...

Practically speaking, it is an ultra low probability event we're discussing, don't think armor is really an answer to that.

JSGlock34
11-11-2020, 10:55 AM
I've never seen a RO wear body armor, but I have seen ROs position themselves quite precariously to observe the 180 line.

jetfire
11-11-2020, 10:57 AM
I seem to recall a USPSA competitor killed a year or two ago in California when a round passed through an imperfection in a berm during a match.

The Raahauges incident involved a competitor at a USPSA match getting killed by a round fired from someone who was shooting on a general use bay, not as part of the match. Basically unsafe range design. I suppose you could count it as a competition fatality, but since the cause of the bullet was unrelated to the match, I'd say no.

SteveB
11-11-2020, 11:10 AM
Maybe I missed it somewhere in the thread but do we know where the RO was hit? Wondering how many ROs either at matches or ranges choose to wear at least soft armor for safety.

I remember an incident at the NTI, in 2000 I think, where an RO was shot by a participant. It was a 360° range, and the RO was standing at the entrance behind the shooter, who was engaging those realistic rubber dummy targets (with clothes) that the NTI used to use. The gun was a .40 Glock loaded with ball. The shooter ran through the targets, checked his rear, saw the RO, and shot him. The RO was wearing a vest, but the round hit him in the hip joint. I was standing just outside the range talking to a couple of tac-med guys, one a trauma surgeon, when the screaming started. They were on that guy before I could even process what had happened. Needless to say, he had excellent pre-hospital care. Bad injury, but he lived.

fatdog
11-11-2020, 11:56 AM
I remember an incident at the NTI, in 2000 I think, .

Yes, I read that incident report, cannot remember the year. They were running a 360 degree shoot stage in a supposedly special 360 degree shooting bay...unsafe by any definition to have an RO present.

Eyesquared
11-11-2020, 12:23 PM
I don't believe there is any requirement in the rules to report any and all safety violations to the USPSA organization.

My club recently barred a shooter from our future matches because he lost his temper and threw his malfunctioning PCC on the ground, in that case he's being barred under rule 6.4.4 and we do have to report to the org within a week of applying that rule. The wording is actually quite ambiguous and it's not clear to me whether the report to the org happens once or whether we would have to notify USPSA on a per-match basis if this shooter were to keep signing up for matches and get turned away repeatedly. Unless someone had a track record of being unsafe or conducting themselves poorly this rule wouldn't be applicable.

Clusterfrack
11-11-2020, 12:46 PM
My club recently barred a shooter from our future matches because he lost his temper and threw his malfunctioning PCC on the ground...

That would be a lifetime ban if I were in charge.

GJM
11-11-2020, 12:51 PM
That would be a lifetime ban if I were in charge.

Because PCC or throwing it?

In speaking with a USPSA area director, I know that USPSA is very liability conscious. It came out of a discussion that he initiated on appendix carry, and the organization’s concern about what additional liability appendix carry at matches brought with it.

Clusterfrack
11-11-2020, 12:54 PM
Because PCC or throwing it?


LOL! If people need throw their PCCs when they malfunction, maybe we can have bullet-resistant trashcans every 10' or so in each bay?

backtrail540
11-11-2020, 12:55 PM
I saw a few pretty gross home gun smith jobs when I used to RO. I look at it like racing. You wouldn't drive a top fuel car on the street because it is unsafe and modified to get every ounce of performance out of it and lack the safety features needed to drive on the street. The same thing for open/limited guns. You wouldn't want to carry them because they are modified to get every ounce of performance from them and lack the safety features necessary for a carry gun.

Just as the track is a controlled environment that helps minimize damage from accidents, the range does the same - but things still happen and sometimes people get hurt or killed.

The difference being, Cletus isn't going to be able to build a top fuel car in his garage (doesn't stop him from doing dumb shit to his 3rd gen camaro, also making it unfit for street use but that's not the point I guess) whereas Bubba and his home smithin' job is much more easily available to the average person.

I bet some are ignorant of the safety compromises and others simply don't care because it's a game gun etc....

Eyesquared
11-11-2020, 01:08 PM
I saw a few pretty gross home gun smith jobs when I used to RO. I look at it like racing. You wouldn't drive a top fuel car on the street because it is unsafe and modified to get every ounce of performance out of it and lack the safety features needed to drive on the street. The same thing for open/limited guns. You wouldn't want to carry them because they are modified to get every ounce of performance from them and lack the safety features necessary for a carry gun.

Just as the track is a controlled environment that helps minimize damage from accidents, the range does the same - but things still happen and sometimes people get hurt or killed.

The difference being, Cletus isn't going to be able to build a top fuel car in his garage (doesn't stop him from doing dumb shit to his 3rd gen camaro, also making it unfit for street use but that's not the point I guess) whereas Bubba and his home smithin' job is much more easily available to the average person.

I bet some are ignorant of the safety compromises and others simply don't care because it's a game gun etc....

I agree that it is likely a bit of both ignorance and willing acceptance of risk. Furthermore I suspect the purpose built competition guns from established competition-focused companies probably aren't super drop safe either. I have never really heard of anyone buying a custom $5000 2011 with a 1.75lb trigger and no grip safety, and asking if it'll go off when dropped.

Eyesquared
11-11-2020, 01:12 PM
That would be a lifetime ban if I were in charge.

I am actually a little hazy on whether or not USPSA really has a rule for proper lifetime bans from participating in the sport. My understanding is that they can terminate someone's membership but non-members can still shoot club matches, just not level 2 and up. When Foley threatened Ben Stoeger with this, it would have been much more impactful in his case as that would have prevented him from shooting all the matches he cares about, but I don't think the board can stop you from shooting a club match unless they somehow convince the individual MD to apply rule 6.4.4 on you.

Edit: I looked at the stuff Ryan Flowers posted and saw mention of him being added to an "ineligible for competition roster" which certain match administrators have access to. I don't think this goes out to every club, just people putting on L2 and up matches?

HCM
11-11-2020, 01:44 PM
AFAIK this information has not been posted, here, or anywhere else I am following this discussion.

I routinely see ROs wearing what appear to be plate carriers monitoring the public line at local indoor ranges (Shooters World, Tampa; Shoot Straight, Clearwater) I frequent. As to what they actually have, inserted into these vests, I have no idea. As regards Shoot Straight, in particular, we've had multiple incidents of people committing suicide in the last few years, so the concept of a round coming your way is not academic, at least around here.

From 2013:

https://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/pinellas-park-police-investigate-suicide-at-gun-range/2154047/

"Authorities are investigating the suicide of a man they say rented a firearm from a gun range, then performed target practice before turning the weapon on himself.

The shooting happened about 3 p.m. Saturday at Shoot Straight..."

From 2009:

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna30109090

"A central Florida woman who fatally shot her son then killed herself at a shooting range wrote in suicide notes to her boyfriend that she was trying to save her son."

The body armor isn’t for the suicides. Unfortunately that is a common occurrence on ranges that rent guns. It’s for all the other ridiculous shit people do on public ranges.

There are certain people that cause me to wear body armor on the range at work. This is usually due to their la k of common sense, poor gun handling and inability to follow directions.

jetfire
11-11-2020, 02:08 PM
I am actually a little hazy on whether or not USPSA really has a rule for proper lifetime bans from participating in the sport. My understanding is that they can terminate someone's membership but non-members can still shoot club matches, just not level 2 and up. When Foley threatened Ben Stoeger with this, it would have been much more impactful in his case as that would have prevented him from shooting all the matches he cares about, but I don't think the board can stop you from shooting a club match unless they somehow convince the individual MD to apply rule 6.4.4 on you.

Edit: I looked at the stuff Ryan Flowers posted and saw mention of him being added to an "ineligible for competition roster" which certain match administrators have access to. I don't think this goes out to every club, just people putting on L2 and up matches?

To ban someone for life, the board has to vote on it, and it bans that person from any match where USPSA collects a fee - so anything that isn't an outlaw match...or IDPA.

Rocky Racoon
11-11-2020, 04:11 PM
The Raahauges incident involved a competitor at a USPSA match getting killed by a round fired from someone who was shooting on a general use bay, not as part of the match. Basically unsafe range design. I suppose you could count it as a competition fatality, but since the cause of the bullet was unrelated to the match, I'd say no.

I recall a death maybe 5-8 years ago when the competitor attempted to catch a dropped pistol, resulting in the competitor pressing the trigger and fatally shooting himself.

I’ll search and see if I can find it and if my memory was correct. It often isn’t.

Edit- found it. My dates were off.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-man-dies-after-shooting-himself-during-kamloops-pistol-contest/wcm/8587f223-30de-466f-b7e0-d2b952cc3480/amp/

bofe954
11-11-2020, 05:36 PM
To ban someone for life, the board has to vote on it, and it bans that person from any match where USPSA collects a fee - so anything that isn't an outlaw match...or IDPA.

At the local I frequent about half of the participants never join USPSA. We don't check names to a list and even if we did, we don't check ID's. Not sure why anyone would go through all the trouble to be where they aren't wanted, but if you want to shoot a match you can.

I suppose with all of the drama loving internet addict USPSA shooters word gets around some, and you'd actually have to move or something...

Mark D
11-11-2020, 11:16 PM
My experience has been 180 degrees to that. Most gaymergfags , whether they consider the blaster a sports bat and nothing more or who are also defensively orientated, are pretty serious about safety. I see more guys decked out in plate carriers doing stupid things , because"big boy rules"

Im' not sure how light triggers on a piece of gear made for a game where light triggers are beneficial , are "not particularly safety conscious"?


For the record I'm a gaymerfag timmy crossover who plays games to win at the games, and does defensive stuff to shoot people better while understanding what will benefit both and what is specific.

I suspect that different clubs have different safety cultures. Unfortunately, my club has a barely existent safety culture. In 2018 I participated in an IDPA match that included a shooter's meeting and a walk through of every stage. The meeting and walk through took 30 minutes plus, and safety wasn't mentioned at all. Zero discussion about safety throughout the entire match.

Things changed a little bit when a guy put a round through his leg last year at a rimfire match, but the changes were largely lip service. The bullet wound was through and through his calf, and he was back at the range a few days later, so the incident may not have been severe enough to inspire meaningful change.

As for light triggers, it's been discussed many times hereabouts that short, light triggers make guns easier to shoot well. Those same trigger characteristics also make it easier to discharge the gun unintentionally or negligently. Perhaps more concerning are the guys who will buy a brand new gun, and proudly tell you a couple days later how they took it apart and polished the internals with a dremel tool, despite not having any armorers training or previous experience with that platform. The guys I'm talking about are not gunsmiths or armorers, and don't possess any particular mechanical acumen, and I certainly don't trust their idea of a trigger job.*

(*These are often the same folks who will take a perfectly functioning gun, install a plethora of parts from different aftermarket manufacturers, and then wonder why it pukes on every stage. Nice guys for the most part, but far from squared away, by P-F standards).

This is what I see in my area. As always, other's experiences may differ.

Lon
11-12-2020, 12:05 AM
I always hate running guys shooting non-decocking lever CZ’s and Tanfo’s. I keep waiting for the ND while they go to lower the hammer all the way.

Sucks for everyone involved.

Wheeler
11-12-2020, 05:00 AM
One thing I know is that rarely does anyone concede a point on the internet. And you are no exception. You arent going to concede that you were wrong about the Sig and other non-drop safe pistols in IDPA. And I don’t guess you are going to concede anything about the usefulness or lack thereof of the IDPA rule book. That’s fine.

And I quoted you. I didn’t change anything you wrote.

Bottom line - if the report on Benos is accurate, (hammer down CZ dropped on the ground), the same accident could have happened in IDPA just as it happened in USPSA.

No need to come back and tell me you are done.

My, my...what a charred arse you have said the kettle to the pot...

Wise_A
11-12-2020, 05:51 AM
What strikes me as a (relatively) new competitor is that I was unaware of the possibility that guns used in competition might not be drop safe. I mean, I always assumed that you'd have to be an idiot to carry a gun that wasn't. The whole "drop gate" on the Sig P320 affected my buying decision, in that I decided to just carry on with Glocks for carry and competition, as imperfect as they are, because of the (relatively) safe design.

I'd suggest considering some things:

(1) "Drop-safe" isn't an on-off switch. Some designs--like a box-stock Glock in good working order--are pretty damn resistant. And there are some guns that you'd think were drop-safe, that aren't. A 1911 can drop the hammer and fire, even with the thumb safety engaged. At other times, there have been perfectly good firearms that weren't drop safe (like the S&W 59 first-gens), that were really very good guns until newer revisions came along and they became obsolete. And in other areas, it doesn't matter whether a gun is drop-safe, like in bullseye or F-class rifle.

(2) Most people don't know how their guns work in a detailed way. For instance, in a G-Lock, how the trigger bar pushes the firing pin safety out of the way of the safety, but the trigger safety prevents the trigger from pivoting until you deactivate it with your finger, and that unless you do that, the pre-tensioned striker can't move forward because the trigger bar is in the way and there's literally no place for it to go. Once you understand that, then it's easy to realize that people are modifying their guns without the slightest idea of how all the parts go together. They start looking for "short, light" triggers on their G-Locks, not realizing that the distance the cruciform has to move to get out of the way of the striker, and the tension it's under, are the things that keep their gun from going *bang* if you slap it with your hand. And yes, there have been trigger kits sold that would do that.

(3) Going back to Point #1, nobody reasonable is going to actually drop-test their gun. You'd be crazy to. This is because drop-testing your gun would mean dropping it on the sorts of surfaces you're going to carry it on, and nobody is going to bang their new shiny off a concrete floor.

1 + 2 + 3 = there's a lot of Nobody Knows going on. Monkeys with hand grenades.

And yeah, competition has a ton to do with it. Firing pin blocks add weight to the trigger pull. Unavoidable fact of life. And if there's no floor to the trigger pull weight, then there is literally zero competitive advantage to leaving it in. Check out any competitive shooting forum, and you'll find that Hardware posts outnumber Software posts by a huge margin. That's a lot of people trying to buy points.

===

Now, as an aside, there's a ton of speculation going on, and the truth of the matter is that nobody knows anything. About the only confirmed fact is that the floor surface was concrete, which is about as conducive to a dropped gun discharging as you can get. For all we know, the competitor tried to grab the gun as he dropped it and it discharged via trigger manipulation. People get huge, glaring details wrong all the time. That is a large portion of my profession. Just yesterday I had a subject vehicle described as a "blue Ford F150". When I received a report later of a "blue Lexus SUV", I had a hunch it was the same vehicle--and I was right! People, on average, spend half their time not looking, and the rest of their time not seeing. Expecting them to notice and remember details surrounding a fatal accident that they most likely weren't even looking at is asking too much. Not to mention, there's a reason why it's common practice to separate witnesses, even when the parties have no reason to lie--two people who are half right will talk and come up with a story that's 75% bullshit.

Bucky
11-12-2020, 06:39 AM
I'd suggest considering some things:

(1) "Drop-safe" isn't an on-off switch. Some designs--like a box-stock Glock in good working order--are pretty damn resistant. And there are some guns that you'd think were drop-safe, that aren't. A 1911 can drop the hammer and fire, even with the thumb safety engaged.

Kind of an unfair comparison. A 1911 “in good working order” will not drop the hammer and fire, especially with the safety engaged. A properly functioning half cock notch will prevent this.

jetfire
11-12-2020, 09:34 AM
I recall a death maybe 5-8 years ago when the competitor attempted to catch a dropped pistol, resulting in the competitor pressing the trigger and fatally shooting himself.

I’ll search and see if I can find it and if my memory was correct. It often isn’t.

Edit- found it. My dates were off.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/vancouversun.com/news/local-news/vancouver-man-dies-after-shooting-himself-during-kamloops-pistol-contest/wcm/8587f223-30de-466f-b7e0-d2b952cc3480/amp/

Yeah, I found that one - the dude at the Canadian IPSC match.

TicTacticalTimmy
11-12-2020, 11:34 AM
Ok, I do have an equipment question related to this topic.


Were guns like this, without a Firing Pin Block, designed to be carried chambered, *and* hammer down?

Does having the hammer down on a chambered DA/SA gun, without a FPB, make it more, or less, drop safe?

Like I said, I may be confused in my question, so if you could set me straight on anything in the premise I'd appreciate it. This incident is really bugging me. I feel terrible for all involved.

I would like to attempt to answer this as well as a few related points you made, RJ.

1. Original CZ75 Design: the original CZ75's could be carried either cocked and locked like a 1911, or decocked, the latter being what we call "TDA" on this forum. However, they were NOT meant to be fully decocked but rather at half cock. Please note that "half cock" is a misnomer, as it is really only maybe 15% cocked, nowhere near enough tension to light off a primer if there was some crazy mechanical failure where the hammer dropped from that position. Note the Shadow and Shadow 2 is basically identical to this original deaign, lacking the firing pin block (FPB) added in the early 90's.
While half cocked, the hammer is resting on the half cock notch, which is big and burly and extremely unlikely to allow the hammer to move forward even with a huge amount of force applied to the back of the hammer, even with a heavily worn firearm. From this position the gun is, in my opinion, 'mostly drop safe'. The only way it is likely to go off is if it is dropped muzzle down, since then inertia is working directly against the firing pin spring, which is otherwise putting constant rearward pressure on the firing pin. You could slam the back of the hammer with a mallet (any volunteers out there?) And it won't go off unless you hit so hard as to literally break the half cock notch on the sear or hammer, both of which are made of hardened tool steel. Even then you would need to have enough energy left over from your blow to overcome the firing pin spring and touch off a primer.
By contrast, while fully decocked, the hammer is resting directly on the firing pin. If you were to slam the hammer with a mallet in this position, the gun will go off if you hit hard enough. The hammer is directly connected to the primer via the firing pin.

2. The event in OP: based on the info in this thread, it sounds like the guy fully decocked his non FPB equipped CZ, just as thousands of other competitors do every weekend at matches across the USA. He then threw the gun into his holster, missed it, and the gun hit the ground. While in the air the gun spun around and hit the ground hammer-down and muzzle-up. The RO happened to be in front of the muzzle right as this happened, the gun discharged and an innocent man died.

3. Personal experience: Im a CZ fanboi, and used to carry a manual safety SP01 by manually decocking it before holstering. I got very comfortable with doing this safely over hundreds of reps. This was also my competition gun. I will admit on this forum that during matches I dropped the hammer to half cock and not full decock, because fully decocking and then holstering gives me the heebie jeebies... my mind is thinking about that firing resting on the primer... and I dont want to be thinking about that instead of being present in the moment before that beep goes off. I did this fully aware it was against the rules, I think one time an RO said something and I fully decocked, the other times they didnt notice or didnt care.
Now I both carry and compete with decocker and FPB equipped guns, so I dont need to worry about the above safety concern or being DQ'd ;)

4. Rules and inherent safety: I disagree strongly with the idea that non "drop safe" should be banned from competition. Every single AR15 is not only lacking a drop safety, but is actually more mechanically inclined to go off if dropped or hit hard from a certain direction, since it lacks even a firing pin spring to put rearward pressure on the firing pin. Regarding pistols, look up the series 70 1911 drop tests mentioned above in this thread to see just how perfectly things need to align to make a gun actually go off when dropped. Finally, consider that the pre-upgrade P320 was advertised as "drop safe" but actually wasn't. Moreover, the position where the P320 is most likelt to discharge is the exact position the CZ in question discharged in and killed someone, the worst possible angle of muzzle 45-ish degrees up.
In my opinion the CZ in question would not have gone off when dropped at this angle if it was on half cock instead of fully decocked. I wish they would amend the rules to allow hammer fired guns to be dropped to half cock in production, but realize this would add complexity to the rulebook and some would cry foul that allowing that hammer spring to be 15% compressed gives hammer fired guns an unfair advantage.

I wholeheartedly agree with the points made upthread that this is an extremely rare occurance, which is what makes it a tragedy, and one is far more likely to die driving to the match than in it.

DDTSGM
11-12-2020, 01:12 PM
4. Rules and inherent safety: I disagree strongly with the idea that non "drop safe" should be banned from competition. Every single AR15 is not only lacking a drop safety, but is actually more mechanically inclined to go off if dropped or hit hard from a certain direction, since it lacks even a firing pin spring to put rearward pressure on the firing pin. Regarding pistols, look up the series 70 1911 drop tests mentioned above in this thread to see just how perfectly things need to align to make a gun actually go off when dropped. Finally, consider that the pre-upgrade P320 was advertised as "drop safe" but actually wasn't. Moreover, the position where the P320 is most likelt to discharge is the exact position the CZ in question discharged in and killed someone, the worst possible angle of muzzle 45-ish degrees up.
In my opinion the CZ in question would not have gone off when dropped at this angle if it was on half cock instead of fully decocked. I wish they would amend the rules to allow hammer fired guns to be dropped to half cock in production, but realize this would add complexity to the rulebook and some would cry foul that allowing that hammer spring to be 15% compressed gives hammer fired guns an unfair advantage.

I wholeheartedly agree with the points made upthread that this is an extremely rare occurance, which is what makes it a tragedy, and one is far more likely to die driving to the match than in it.

I think that the organization should be looking at the changes you suggest simply to protect themselves when/if the next incident happens.

YVK
11-12-2020, 03:25 PM
..decocked, the latter being what we call "TDA" on this forum. However, they were NOT meant to be fully decocked but rather at half cock.

Was it not meant to be fully decocked all the way down, or decocker design wouldn't allow it to be fully lowered? If it is the former, was it because of the concerns discussed in this thread, or because they didn't want to risk hammer slippage and ignition even with mechanical decocking?

TicTacticalTimmy
11-12-2020, 05:08 PM
I think that the organization should be looking at the changes you suggest simply to protect themselves when/if the next incident happens.

My concern there is it sets a precedent of changing the rules in response to tragedy, which over time could lead to neutering USPSA and practical shooting in general.



Was it not meant to be fully decocked all the way down, or decocker design wouldn't allow it to be fully lowered? If it is the former, was it because of the concerns discussed in this thread, or because they didn't want to risk hammer slippage and ignition even with mechanical decocking?

When CZ designed the decocker, they designed it to drop to half cock. I think this clearly shows that this is how they meant the hammer to be set when carrying in condition 2.

I might be misunderstanding your question, but yes another big benefit of going to half cock is it is much easier to do manually without letting the hammer slip as you decock.

Clusterfrack
11-12-2020, 05:19 PM
When CZ designed the decocker, they designed it to drop to half cock. I think this clearly shows that this is how they meant the hammer to be set of carrying in condition 2.


Exactly. As long as you don't have people installing gamer hammers with a half-cock notch that is 90% cocked, I don't see this as a competitive advantage.

Allowing the guns to be holstered in the DA condition intended by the manufacturer seems like an easy rule change.

YVK
11-12-2020, 06:01 PM
I might be misunderstanding your question,

I am simply trying to find out facts (vs opinions) why CZ decided to design mechanical decocking to half cock notch. It could've been for a number of reasons such as just simpler to execute, or prevent ND during decocking. I have hard time accepting that this was done for purposes of drop safety since decocker enabled CZs (and other DA/SA mech decock guns that lower to half notch) because all of them, to the best of my memory, have firing pin blocks anyway.

YVK
11-12-2020, 07:29 PM
As long as you don't have people installing gamer hammers with a half-cock notch that is 90% cocked

You know that this is exactly what's going to happen, right? Gamers gonna game. Not 90, but 15-25-30 etc, and it would be impossible to guard against.

Gio
11-12-2020, 09:32 PM
I've never seen a RO wear body armor, but I have seen ROs position themselves quite precariously to observe the 180 line.

Like this one from the VA State match we shot. This may be one of the worst examples of RO positioning ive ever seen, as competitors had to pick up their gun unloaded off the barrel and load it, which resulted in several right handed shooters aiming directly at the RO on the left.

63116

JSGlock34
11-12-2020, 09:44 PM
Like this one from the VA State match we shot. This may be one of the worst examples of RO positioning ive ever seen, as competitors had to pick up their gun unloaded off the barrel and load it, which resulted in several right handed shooters aiming directly at the RO on the left.

63116

Ha! You nailed it - I was thinking of that stage specifically when I wrote that post.

TicTacticalTimmy
11-12-2020, 09:50 PM
I am simply trying to find out facts (vs opinions) why CZ decided to design mechanical decocking to half cock notch. It could've been for a number of reasons such as just simpler to execute, or prevent ND during decocking. I have hard time accepting that this was done for purposes of drop safety since decocker enabled CZs (and other DA/SA mech decock guns that lower to half notch) because all of them, to the best of my memory, have firing pin blocks anyway.

This is conjecture (i.e. my opinion, not a hard fact) as I have no direct or indirect knowledge of the engineering development of CZs. Would love to hear from someone with direct knowledge, but I fear they aren't going to be easily found on the web.

It seems to me it is similar to how in Glocks the metal tab that sticks up on the triggerbar prevents the striker from being able to move forward until the triggerbar is moved enough to the rear the tab can clear the striker, in spite of the fact Glocks also have a firing pin block.

I think it is good to have redundancy in internal safety mechanisms, as evidenced by Glocks with aftermarket triggers and stock Caniks not being drop safe despite having firing pin blocks.

CleverNickname
11-12-2020, 09:51 PM
Like this one from the VA State match we shot. This may be one of the worst examples of RO positioning ive ever seen, as competitors had to pick up their gun unloaded off the barrel and load it, which resulted in several right handed shooters aiming directly at the RO on the left.

63116

It wasn't an RO, but this official match cameraman decided to, for some reason, plant himself at about the 178 degree line. I saw where he was out of the corner of my eye when I was shooting an earlier part of the stage and remember thinking "OK before I get over to those targets near him he's going to move, right?"

Nope.

63117

DDTSGM
11-12-2020, 09:58 PM
My concern there is it sets a precedent of changing the rules in response to tragedy, which over time could lead to neutering USPSA and practical shooting in general.


In this case, it seems fairly apparent that IPSC/USPSA rules require those shooting some pistols, in this case CZ's, to circumvent a safety built into the pistol's design. If it is found that requirement was a contributing factor to the chain of events that resulted in the RO's death, then the organization would be negligent if they didn't change the rules to prevent such an occurrence.

Tragedies in the shooting sports are rare enough that there should be a precedent for change if a mechanical design or procedure are found to be a proximal cause of tragedy.

Regarding the rules, seemingly simplest thing simplest thing to me would be another division:

1) Selective action pistols, which are not equipped with a decocking system will be required to compete in the 'single action/metallic sights' division. Said pistols will be carried IAW portion of 8.1.2.3 declaring chamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged

Eyesquared
11-12-2020, 11:23 PM
ROs standing at 181 degrees to see if you break the 180 is probably the perfect example of how ass-backwards some ROs are when it comes to thinking about safety. How dumb is it that people are standing where the gun is practically pointing at them, just to see if you break the arbitrary line of "safety" signified by the 180? The whole point of having a 180 degree safety angle is to make sure the gun doesn't point at anyone... In no way is it worth adding the risk of getting killed just to make sure you can keep people from going to 181 degrees, which honestly would have been perfectly safe if everyone stood back and didn't crowd up against the 180.

nwhpfan
11-12-2020, 11:32 PM
Lots of questions. Was it a CZ, was it Production, at what point in the stage did this occur. Dropped how?

As for CZ in general, there is alot of interesting history in USPSA NROI, DNROI Benos et. al. about what where the hammer needs to be on guns like a CZ that don't have a decocker. This is what is in the current rule book.

"When in the ready conditions as specified under 8.1, a gun with an external hammer must be hammer down. A hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking) or by activating the decocking lever if present. Manually decocking to the half-cocked position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division."

How big of an advantage is being at the half cock notch vs. all the way down and the risk associated can be for the USPSA to decide...if that is even a factor.

Has there been a statement from the USPSA HQ yet?

olstyn
11-12-2020, 11:32 PM
Regarding the rules, seemingly simplest thing simplest thing to me would be another division:

1) Selective action pistols, which are not equipped with a decocking system will be required to compete in the 'single action/metallic sights' division. Said pistols will be carried IAW portion of 8.1.2.3 declaring chamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged

Well, the *simplest* thing would be to just take them off of the Production gun list and thus force them into Limited where they would all compete as SAO anyway.

olstyn
11-12-2020, 11:34 PM
It wasn't an RO, but this official match cameraman decided to, for some reason, plant himself at about the 178 degree line. I saw where he was out of the corner of my eye when I was shooting an earlier part of the stage and remember thinking "OK before I get over to those targets near him he's going to move, right?"

Nope.

I think there's a strong argument that you could have simply stopped, declared the camera guy to be unsafe, and demanded a re-shoot minus the distraction of worrying about his position relative to your line of fire.

Eyesquared
11-13-2020, 01:29 AM
To me it sounds like crazy talk to start moving guns into different divisions or adding new divisions when:
1. DA/SA CZs are not the only non-drop safe guns at these matches. I bet many of the limited, open, singlestack, etc. guns are not drop safe. Many of the striker fired guns with extensive trigger work may not be either.
2. These guns are also shot in CO so you would have to figure out what to do with those guns, can't just make a new ironsighted division or slap those in Limited.
3. None of these guns would be competitive with minor scoring in Limited.
4. These are some of the most popular guns in the sport and yet the number of fatalities over multiple decades relating to these guns appears to be the grand total of 1.

Wise_A
11-13-2020, 03:57 AM
Kind of an unfair comparison. A 1911 “in good working order” will not drop the hammer and fire, especially with the safety engaged. A properly functioning half cock notch will prevent this.

Ned Christiensen has an explanation of this--but he's also trying to sell a product: The thumb safety on a 1911 prevents the hammer from falling by blocking the sear with one of its lobes. That works great if your sear and pin remain intact when you drop your gun, because the sear can't move out of the way of the hammer--the safety is holding it in. If those components don't remain intact and stationary, then the full-cock notch drops right off the sear, and pushes it out of the way. It'll also pop the thumb safety off, as well. Perfect world, yeah, it shouldn't go off. Real world, on a gun with wear, then you're into "degrees of drop-safety". And I've already shot out a factory hammer and sear once. Fortunately, I was already halfway through the magazine when it did that.

Maybe "good working order" is a big strong--perhaps appearing to be in good working order. I'd wager that most people with 1911s never once disassemble them past a field strip, much less function-check every component. Also note that I'm not knocking the gun--1911s are great! I own two. But I also allow that they're not perfect--like everything else I own--they just occupy a different position on the performance/reliability/price/durability/etc spectrum.


Like this one from the VA State match we shot. This may be one of the worst examples of RO positioning ive ever seen, as competitors had to pick up their gun unloaded off the barrel and load it, which resulted in several right handed shooters aiming directly at the RO on the left.

63116


It wasn't an RO, but this official match cameraman decided to, for some reason, plant himself at about the 178 degree line. I saw where he was out of the corner of my eye when I was shooting an earlier part of the stage and remember thinking "OK before I get over to those targets near him he's going to move, right?"

Nope.

63117

I have a question--from a dopey-ass BE shooter and NRA CRSO that would maybe do USPSA if the apocalypse ever ends. Let's say I'm at a match, I step up to the box, and I see something like that. What recourse do I have as a competitor? What do I do if my complaint isn't sustained locally and I refuse to shoot that particular stage?

I've always taught people that if they see something they're not comfortable with, to take it to whoever is in charge of the particular area in question, and if the issue doesn't get resolved, proceed to the match director. If that doesn't work, then it's time to noap on outta there. I myself have noaped on out of an NRA sectional match (which was a real punch in the dick for me, points-wise) because I walked in only to find the "NRA referee" tech-inspecting the guns and muzzling a room full of people who didn't seem to mind.

I'm not trying to put you guys on the spot--I totally get the pressure of being forced to compete in substandard conditions because management is dumb. Been there, done that. In BE, I was forced to eat the match fee and miss the points--and our matches are simple, you have to really try to fuck up. But there was still no way to advance my case. I think that's a problem in shooting sports. I mean, we say that anyone can call a cease fire at any time, but do we really mean that?

BigT
11-13-2020, 04:52 AM
This thread does appear to have a lot of people who don't shoot IPSC/USPSA or who if they do , do it very causally opinioning very hard on something they don't understand. You know how you feel when someone who doesn't own guns tells you you don't need a 20 shot magazine, or a dude with a hunting rifle tells you you don't need an AR, thats how I feel reading some of this.

Once again, this was a terrible tragedy, one so rare thats its caused all this discussion. We don't need to change the rules of the game! We don't need to act like the sky is falling! We don't need to put down every Labrador in the world because we heard about one biting a child.

Half cocks are to catch hammers slipping not for carry. A safety notch on a decocker gun is not the same thing.

Bucky
11-13-2020, 05:01 AM
1) Selective action pistols, which are not equipped with a decocking system will be required to compete in the 'single action/metallic sights' division. Said pistols will be carried IAW portion of 8.1.2.3 declaring chamber loaded, and hammer cocked with external safety engaged

Hell no, the last thing USPSA needs is another division.

Not sure what the big deal is with letting DA / SA guns start at 15% (even 30%) cocked, when we’re allowing for striker fired guns to start 100% cocked.

Zincwarrior
11-13-2020, 08:00 AM
Like this one from the VA State match we shot. This may be one of the worst examples of RO positioning ive ever seen, as competitors had to pick up their gun unloaded off the barrel and load it, which resulted in several right handed shooters aiming directly at the RO on the left.

63116

Yea thats crazy. Just putting aside the volunteering to get new holes. In central Texas the chances of a ricochet like that are high.

olstyn
11-13-2020, 08:07 AM
I have a question--from a dopey-ass BE shooter and NRA CRSO that would maybe do USPSA if the apocalypse ever ends. Let's say I'm at a match, I step up to the box, and I see something like that. What recourse do I have as a competitor? What do I do if my complaint isn't sustained locally and I refuse to shoot that particular stage?

I've always taught people that if they see something they're not comfortable with, to take it to whoever is in charge of the particular area in question, and if the issue doesn't get resolved, proceed to the match director. If that doesn't work, then it's time to noap on outta there.

I'm not a certified RO, and as such, I've only ever acted as an RO at local matches, but I've personally followed the example of the "real" ROs I've seen during my time competing and not given the "make ready" command until there is nobody but the shooter downrange of me. If I was ROing that stage, the photographer would have been told that he needed to be farther back, and if he bitched about it, my response would be that I'm not running any shooters until he's at least behind the 180 line of *my* body (he's visibly downrange of the RO in that pic). As a shooter, I'm not sure what you can do other than what you and I both already suggested - tell the RO you're not comfortable with the photographer's position and that you want him moved before you shoot for safety reasons. Any vaguely sane RO should work with you on that. If the RO refuses, then I guess you either put up with it or appeal to the rangemaster/match director?

Clusterfrack
11-13-2020, 11:26 AM
Yeah, I fucking hate it when people hang out near the edges of the rear fault line on stages like this. When I'm RO-ing I ask people to move. When I'm shooting I ask people to move, and won't start until they do. I've never had anyone argue with me because I ask nicely. So far, I haven't had to ask an RO at major match to move.

There should be a buffer between the edges of the rear fault line and where spectators can stand.

ROs need education about avoiding dangerous positions. Catching a shooter breaking the 180 by 1 degree is less important than keeping out of harm's way.


It wasn't an RO, but this official match cameraman decided to, for some reason, plant himself at about the 178 degree line. I saw where he was out of the corner of my eye when I was shooting an earlier part of the stage and remember thinking "OK before I get over to those targets near him he's going to move, right?"

Nope.

63117

Zincwarrior
11-13-2020, 11:42 AM
Yeah, I fucking hate it when people hang out near the edges of the rear fault line on stages like this. When I'm RO-ing I ask people to move. When I'm shooting I ask people to move, and won't start until they do. I've never had anyone argue with me because I ask nicely. So far, I haven't had to ask an RO at major match to move.

There should be a buffer between the edges of the rear fault line and where spectators can stand.

ROs need education about avoiding dangerous positions. Catching a shooter breaking the 180 by 1 degree is less important than keeping out of harm's way.
If the stage has an RO at the 179 watching, there's about three levels of bad already on that stage.

Jim Watson
11-13-2020, 11:59 AM
CAS uses a 170 deg rule. If you are anywhere close to 180, you have clearly gone too far.
IDPA uses either the 180 or marked muzzle safe points. I won't say never but have hardly ever seen muzzle safe points wider than 180 and usually narrower, often a lot narrower.

Eyesquared
11-13-2020, 12:04 PM
Gun safety in USPSA can feel like living in bizarro world.

If I break the 180 by 1 degree (a highly subjective call, at best) and get stopped, I'm too dangerous to be allowed to shoot the rest of the match, but I can come back next week and do the same thing?

IMO the ideal way to handle the 180 is keep everyone spectating at least another 20-30 degrees back from it. And stop worrying about calling it even if people go to 181. Just call egregious violations like if someone clearly goes to 200+. Right now because of stage design and the way officiating is handled, we have stages where you actively have to plan how not to break the 180 while shooting a stage, like if there's an uprange movement to a shooting position and the target is right on the 180. IMO that's dumb as hell.

Clusterfrack
11-13-2020, 12:11 PM
Exactly this. At the OR state match I shot last weekend, there was a retreat stage where I sprinted back with gun angled downrange on my strong side to shoot two targets right on the 180. (There were no people anywhere near that side of the bay). I've practiced this quite a bit so I know how not to break the safe angle, but when I arm-pump while running with the gun it freaks some ROs out. After I finished the stage, the RO lectured me about how close to the 180 I was and how he "almost called it". It's annoying and unnecessary, but I understand the position the ROs are in, having to make a subjective call. Your suggestion would solve it.


IMO the ideal way to handle the 180 is keep everyone spectating at least another 20-30 degrees back from it. And stop worrying about calling it even if people go to 181. Just call egregious violations like if someone clearly goes to 200+. Right now because of stage design and the way officiating is handled, we have stages where you actively have to plan how not to break the 180 while shooting a stage, like if there's an uprange movement to a shooting position and the target is right on the 180. IMO that's dumb as hell.

CleverNickname
11-13-2020, 12:22 PM
I have a question--from a dopey-ass BE shooter and NRA CRSO that would maybe do USPSA if the apocalypse ever ends. Let's say I'm at a match, I step up to the box, and I see something like that. What recourse do I have as a competitor? What do I do if my complaint isn't sustained locally and I refuse to shoot that particular stage?

If the competitor stopped himself during the course of fire, then he'd have to hope the RO would issue a stop command once the competitor pointed out what he thought was a safety issue. Then the competitor would get a reshoot. However, in my example, no violation technically occurred, since the photographer was in fact behind the 180 line (the back fault line). If the RO didn't think it was a safety issue and failed to issue a stop command, then the timer's still running and the competitor would end up with a really long raw time, or a DNF if they just refused to complete the stage. The ideal thing a competitor would do is to notice where the cameraman was standing prior to the RO asking "Are you ready?" and then answer in the negative, point out the potential problem, and ask the RO to have the cameraman move. However, that wouldn't prevent the cameraman from moving to that point after the timer beeped.

That said, there's something wrong where this is ok:

63145

And this is not:

63144

Both should be considered unsafe, but technically only the bottom one must be, according to the rulebook. The RO could still stop the competitor in the top diagram if the RO thinks it's unsafe (if it were me, I would), but I don't see where he would be required to stop the competitor in that situation, since the Totally Smart Guy is in fact behind the 180.

I'd be in favor of a second fault line which only the shooter and the RO could be in front of after the beep, which was far enough back to where the shooter would have to break the 180 by 20 or 30 degrees in order to point the gun at someone. If someone else went in front of the line, give them a procedural the first violation (or warning if they were not a competitor), then DNF/eject them from the match on the second violation.

jetfire
11-13-2020, 01:43 PM
This whole "180 discussion" is interesting. Here's a photo I took of Bob Vogel back at the 2011 or 2012 IDPA Nationals. To get this shot I was behind the 180, but his gun was aimed probably a good 10 or 15 degrees past my left shoulder.

63151

There were no steel targets or anything that could cause frag, and I was getting paid to be there, so I didn't feel particularly unsafe taking this photo, also because Bob is a known quantity. I figure if he's going to shoot me it'll be on purpose. I don't have a single photo of any other shooters from that exact angle, because Bob was the only guy I felt that safe getting close to the line to actually photograph.

Also, side note: when I'm getting paid to take pictures, there's nothing more annoying that some "helpful" RO being all "hey you can't stand there" when I'm behind the 180 and the shooter is cool with it.

Bucky
11-13-2020, 02:15 PM
If the stage has an RO at the 179 watching, there's about three levels of bad already on that stage.

The cynic in me also says, if you have an RO watching the 180 that closely, then there is a 180 trap built into the stage. :(

Clusterfrack
11-13-2020, 02:20 PM
Also, side note: when I'm getting paid to take pictures, there's nothing more annoying that some "helpful" RO being all "hey you can't stand there" when I'm behind the 180 and the shooter is cool with it.

I get what you're saying. But, if I were the RO in that situation, I would take a break and let someone else RO your subject.

cheby
11-13-2020, 02:55 PM
This thread does appear to have a lot of people who don't shoot IPSC/USPSA or who if they do , do it very causally opinioning very hard on something they don't understand. You know how you feel when someone who doesn't own guns tells you you don't need a 20 shot magazine, or a dude with a hunting rifle tells you you don't need an AR, thats how I feel reading it


Right on! This is why I try to stay away from any competition related discussions on pistol forum. This is not the right place for that. With all due respect.

CleverNickname
11-13-2020, 03:00 PM
Also, side note: when I'm getting paid to take pictures, there's nothing more annoying that some "helpful" RO being all "hey you can't stand there" when I'm behind the 180 and the shooter is cool with it.
The CRO is responsible for his stage. If he tells you what you're doing is unsafe, STOP DOING IT. If you told me that on a stage I was running, you'd get about 5 seconds to change your mind before the RM gets called.

jetfire
11-13-2020, 03:41 PM
The CRO is responsible for his stage. If he tells you what you're doing is unsafe, STOP DOING IT. If you told me that on a stage I was running, you'd get about 5 seconds to change your mind before the RM gets called.

Lol chill C-class.

And then I tell the Range Master I'm getting paid by XYZ to take this cool photo of the super squad and doesn't he want to look good in XYZ and the end result is I get to do what I want.

CleverNickname
11-13-2020, 03:47 PM
Lol chill C-class.

And then I tell the Range Master I'm getting paid by XYZ to take this cool photo of the super squad and doesn't he want to look good in XYZ and the end result is I get to do what I want.

:rolleyes: A camera doesn't make you bulletproof. Maybe if you need to take photos from unsafe positions you should invest in some cameras that you can activate remotely.

jetfire
11-13-2020, 03:52 PM
:rolleyes: A camera doesn't make you bulletproof. Maybe if you need to take photos from unsafe positions you should invest in some cameras that you can activate remotely.

I got plenty of those. I also take pictures of people like Bob and not power tripping C-class ROs because Bob isn't going to cook a bullet into me. You on the other hand...

Eyesquared
11-13-2020, 04:00 PM
Someone's classification has fuck-all to do with the legitimacy of their opinions re: safety. The match is not just about you and the shooter, if you get shot somehow there are repercussions for everyone.

Also, you assume a lot about his classification in the first place. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a bad shooter.

jetfire
11-13-2020, 04:25 PM
Someone's classification has fuck-all to do with the legitimacy of their opinions re: safety. The match is not just about you and the shooter, if you get shot somehow there are repercussions for everyone.

Also, you assume a lot about his classification in the first place. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a bad shooter.

I’ve never met an RO who enjoyed power tripping that was also a good shooter.

Also, if I’m getting paid to do a job and the shooter and I are both okay with the assumption of risk and I’m breaking any of the clearly defined safety rules that are in the rulebook, the RO can eat my whole ass if he tries to interfere by imposing his own interpretation of the rules. This is why we have a fucking rule book in the first place - so we can be clear on what is an isn’t allowed.

Bergeron
11-13-2020, 04:30 PM
Someone's classification has fuck-all to do with the legitimacy of their opinions re: safety.

Respectfully, I disagree with this statement.

Action shooting requires a higher awareness of muzzle and trigger finger discipline. A shooter with a high classification has demonstrated, repeatedly and publically, an ability to rapidly and safely negotiate a variety of field courses. If you have the time to spare, I suggest listening to podcasts of GM-level USPSA shooters where they're discussing safety.

The death that started this is shocking and unfortunate, but I don't see a need for rule changes.

P.S. - I'm a nobody who shoots club matches. Take it for what it is worth.

Eyesquared
11-13-2020, 04:32 PM
I’ve never met an RO who enjoyed power tripping that was also a good shooter.

Also, if I’m getting paid to do a job and the shooter and I are both okay with the assumption of risk and I’m breaking any of the clearly defined safety rules that are in the rulebook, the RO can eat my whole ass if he tries to interfere by imposing his own interpretation of the rules. This is why we have a fucking rule book in the first place - so we can be clear on what is an isn’t allowed.

CleverNickname doesn't know me by my screen name but I saw one of his match videos and it turns out I've shot some of the same matches as him. He's a good shooter.

I get it, it's not illegal within the rules but let's be realistic, is being 10 degrees closer to Bob's muzzle going to make the photos that much better???

Eyesquared
11-13-2020, 04:36 PM
Respectfully, I disagree with this statement.

Action shooting requires a higher awareness of muzzle and trigger finger discipline. A shooter with a high classification has demonstrated, repeatedly and publically, an ability to rapidly and safely negotiate a variety of field courses. If you have the time to spare, I suggest listening to podcasts of GM-level USPSA shooters where they're discussing safety.

The death that started this is shocking and unfortunate, but I don't see a need for rule changes.

P.S. - I'm a nobody who shoots club matches. Take it for what it is worth.

I am also a nobody who shoots club matches mostly and finishes around 75% at the major matches in my area. A shooter with a high classification can generally be safe in field courses because they have put in deliberate effort into practicing the stuff that will help them not get sent home by an overzealous RO, like moving uprange staying within the 180, not getting DQ'd when doing reloads that are near the 180, etc. That does not really make them any more or less qualified to judge the risk of standing 15 degrees from a target. The first thing is burning into your subconscious the ability to move and gunhandle safely on a field course. The latter is conscious risk assessment.

jetfire
11-13-2020, 04:46 PM
I get it, it's not illegal within the rules but let's be realistic, is being 10 degrees closer to Bob's muzzle going to make the photos that much better???

It might. It might not. It might be the difference between getting the cover and getting buried in the back of an article. Regardless, unless the RO is also a professional photographer, if I’m not breaking the rules pls leave me along and let me do my job.

I apologize to everyone in this thread that I might have been a cockbag to about this, this is a real hot button issue for me because it’s happened more than once. I’ve lost count of the number of ROs who’ve said “you can’t stand there” and then pull the “RESPEK MY AUTHORITAU” routine, and CleverNickname’s response felt exactly like that.

I’ve also has plenty of ROs say “hey I know you’re working, do you mind moving a little bit?” Those guys I’m always like “absolutely, no worries.”

olstyn
11-13-2020, 05:11 PM
I’ve also has plenty of ROs say “hey I know you’re working, do you mind moving a little bit?” Those guys I’m always like “absolutely, no worries.”

That's certainly the approach I'd take if I was the RO. What I said earlier in the thread about not starting a shooter if anyone other than said shooter is downrange of me was in no way meant to imply that I'd approach it with the baseline assumption that either side of the conversation would need to be an asshole.

Clusterfrack
11-13-2020, 06:52 PM
... ROs who’ve said “you can’t stand there” and then pull the “RESPEK MY AUTHORITAU”

Yeah, that is annoying and I’ve had my share of that as a competitor. But also as an RO.

I don’t like to RO because when there’s a conflict or DQ issue it detracts from my focus and performance in the match. So, the moment there’s any hint of that from a shooter or bystander, I’m out. I just set down the brick and let someone else do it.

HeavyDuty
11-13-2020, 06:57 PM
Triggered - flashing back to my long ago career as a photojournalist and the daily fuckery...

jetfire
11-13-2020, 07:05 PM
Yeah, that is annoying and I’ve had my share of that as a competitor. But also as an RO.

I don’t like to RO because when there’s a conflict or DQ issue it detracts from my focus and performance in the match. So, the moment there’s any hint of that from a shooter or bystander, I’m out. I just set down the brick and let someone else do it.

There’s a reason after my cert lapsed I never got it renewed. I’ll paste and reset like a motherfucker, but RO? Nah fam

willie
11-13-2020, 07:15 PM
Pistols without the firing pin safety or block most certainly are subject to firing when dropped. installing a longer firing pin along with a reduced power firing pin spring while removing the firing pin safety will increase odds tremendously. One of the CZ target pistols is shipped without the firing pin safety. Replacing this pistol's firing pin with a longer Cajun firing pin would be hazardous.

In 1911's without a firing pin safety, I replace the steel firing pin with a much lighter titanium pin that has less mass and at the same time replace the firing pin spring with a heavier spring. This will reduce probability of the pistol firing when dropped but will not eliminate it. The original S&W Model 39 lacked a firing pin safety or block, and it too was subject to firing when dropped. I have seen Star and Ilama brand pistols whose firing pins protruded when the hammer was lowered--an obvious example of poor quality control.

Dropping an AR bolt on a live round will cause a firing pin dimple on the primer. The mechanism whereby the pin moves forward to dent the primer is the same seen when a dropped pistol's firing pin hits the primer causing the pistol to fire. The pin's mass gives it sufficient inertia to continue forward to indent the primer. Bang. I write this for the reader who may not shoot AR's.

JodyH
11-13-2020, 07:40 PM
Yeah, that is annoying and I’ve had my share of that as a competitor. But also as an RO.

I don’t like to RO because when there’s a conflict or DQ issue it detracts from my focus and performance in the match. So, the moment there’s any hint of that from a shooter or bystander, I’m out. I just set down the brick and let someone else do it.


There’s a reason after my cert lapsed I never got it renewed. I’ll paste and reset like a motherfucker, but RO? Nah fam

That attitude is why local clubs are dying.
Volunteers are the lifeblood of the sport, no volunteers, no sport.

I'm saying this as a USPSA MD who hasn't held a match in 6 months because nobody wants to help setup or run the matches...
:mad:

CleverNickname
11-13-2020, 07:49 PM
It might. It might not. It might be the difference between getting the cover and getting buried in the back of an article. Regardless, unless the RO is also a professional photographer, if I’m not breaking the rules pls leave me along and let me do my job.

I apologize to everyone in this thread that I might have been a cockbag to about this, this is a real hot button issue for me because it’s happened more than once. I’ve lost count of the number of ROs who’ve said “you can’t stand there” and then pull the “RESPEK MY AUTHORITAU” routine, and CleverNickname’s response felt exactly like that.

I’ve also has plenty of ROs say “hey I know you’re working, do you mind moving a little bit?” Those guys I’m always like “absolutely, no worries.”

I agree that the tone makes a difference and I didn't intend to be rude.

There's really not much in the rulebook about spectators (which is all a photographer is, as far as the rules are concerned) but rule 2.1.1 does say "... Reasonable effort must be made to prevent injury to competitors, officials and spectators during the match." This seems pretty wide-ranging as to what an RO can require of spectators. IMO "you can't stand there" is one of the most basic things an RO can require of a spectator.

GJM
11-13-2020, 08:10 PM
I do know that when something bad happens at a match, USPSA comes down on the RO.

Clusterfrack
11-13-2020, 08:17 PM
That attitude is why local clubs are dying.
Volunteers are the lifeblood of the sport, no volunteers, no sport.

I'm saying this as a USPSA MD who hasn't held a match in 6 months because nobody wants to help setup or run the matches...
:mad:

I’m happy to help, and do. I’ll be helping set up at a match tomorrow. And will RO if needed. However, competing is why I’m there, so that takes priority. It’s worked out well so far.

willie
11-14-2020, 10:07 AM
Guys and gals who referee football and baseball are paid officials dressed in a uniform. They, for the most part, know what they are doing. They have been given the authority to rule. It sounds to me like you boys need to hire professional referees.

cheby
11-14-2020, 06:54 PM
Guys and gals who referee football and baseball are paid officials dressed in a uniform. They, for the most part, know what they are doing. They have been given the authority to rule. It sounds to me like you boys need to hire professional referees.

This is the example of a remark of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about
1. It's a sport run by volunteers. They are not paid because there's no money in this sport. There are no sponsors either except some national events. Even there, the ROs are not paid, just partially compensated for their travel.
2. Most ROs are certified by USPSA and take annual exams. It's possible that a very small local match would not have enough certified ROs to run a match but it's actually not common.
3. There are no "professional" referees in any shooting sports. Unlike baseball or tennis we have to organize our events in a very hostile against guns environment. So no money is to be made by anyone except a few very top guys. Even they are no making anything impressive. It's all done by people with passion.
4. It is very safe compared to many other sports. Any tragic incidents are very rare and unusual. Definitely not even close to skiing, motorcycle races, or even football.

Eyesquared
11-14-2020, 07:32 PM
It's also worth noting that when things are happening at full speed, real referees and umpires make mistakes that are later caught on video. The USPSA ROs probably have to make harder calls than those paid refs and umps, because for the 180 they are trying to judge the angle of the gun while everything is in motion and they don't always have good reference markers on the stage for what is and isn't within the 180. They don't have the benefit of using video either. So IMO the rules around the 180 and the manner in which 180 violations are called ought to be modified so that people stop worrying about going to 181 and just focus on the big infractions that should be plainly obvious and totally indisputable (these are the ones that are actually dangerous, too).

willie
11-14-2020, 08:36 PM
This is the example of a remark of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about
1. It's a sport run by volunteers. They are not paid because there's no money in this sport. There are no sponsors either except some national events. Even there, the ROs are not paid, just partially compensated for their travel.
2. Most ROs are certified by USPSA and take annual exams. It's possible that a very small local match would not have enough certified ROs to run a match but it's actually not common.
3. There are no "professional" referees in any shooting sports. Unlike baseball or tennis we have to organize our events in a very hostile against guns environment. So no money is to be made by anyone except a few very top guys. Even they are no making anything impressive. It's all done by people with passion.
4. It is very safe compared to many other sports. Any tragic incidents are very rare and unusual. Definitely not even close to skiing, motorcycle races, or even football.

I never claimed that I know what I'm talking about. ;)

Clusterfrack
11-14-2020, 09:03 PM
I like having paid match staff for setup and tear down.

Sig_Fiend
11-14-2020, 10:11 PM
On the issue of speed holstering, I can think of one potential incentive against it. Factor it in to score, and make the points dropped painful. I'm only half joking. LOL

For reference, I've only ever done IDPA. It's been a few years since my last match and I've only ever been to local matches. Hoping to start with USPSA next year.

RJ
11-15-2020, 06:13 AM
Just checking today on local media searches, in case there are any updates, I ran across this local forum with comments by members of folks who indicate they are members of the shooting club where this took place.

https://nygunforum.com/threads/man-killed-in-penfield-shooting-accident-was-a-longtime-club-member.41370/page-3

JSGlock34
11-15-2020, 09:23 AM
I'm wondering what kind of holster from one of the descriptions of the incident in that thread.

Glenn E. Meyer
11-15-2020, 09:32 AM
I just read the NY forum and it mentioned something that we might not have discussed. The gun being not drop safe has been mentioned. The forum has a post that when holstering, the holster did not lock and the gun fell out. Also that certain holsters if they don't lock, a bump will drop the gun out.

So, is that a cause for concern? I have seen the USPSA style that seem minimal as they don't really encapsulate most of the gun. I understand that is for speed and no one expects the holsters to be 'realistic' - which isn't a consideration in a game, we know.

Idpa holsters: A. Must be suitable for all day concealed carry, and worn on each stage regardless of the start position.

So is the holster a contributor?

Bucky
11-15-2020, 09:38 AM
I just read the NY forum and it mentioned something that we might not have discussed. The gun being not drop safe has been mentioned. The forum has a post that when holstering, the holster did not lock and the gun fell out. Also that certain holsters if they don't lock, a bump will drop the gun out.

So, is that a cause for concern? I have seen the USPSA style that seem minimal as they don't really encapsulate most of the gun. I understand that is for speed and no one expects the holsters to be 'realistic' - which isn't a consideration in a game, we know.

Idpa holsters: A. Must be suitable for all day concealed carry, and worn on each stage regardless of the start position.

So is the holster a contributor?

Some assumptions here: If the shooter was lowering the hammer, it is likely they were shooting production or carry optics. IF that were the case, holster requirements disallow for crazy race style holsters. OTOH, it is possible they were shooting another division that allows for such.

Glenn E. Meyer
11-15-2020, 09:49 AM
Just know what the forum post said - one day there will be a complete analysis. One could see a law suit against CZ and the holster firm. There have been suits over non drop safe guns shooting someone.

YVK
11-15-2020, 11:06 AM
Just know what the forum post said - one day there will be a complete analysis. One could see a law suit against CZ


Possible but less likely. People, including some on this site, have hammered on their CZs with mallets. They don't go off if they have OEM parts in. I bet that gun had an extended firing pin and low power firing pin spring.

olstyn
11-15-2020, 11:37 AM
Possible but less likely. People, including some on this site, have hammered on their CZs with mallets. They don't go off if they have OEM parts in. I bet that gun had an extended firing pin and low power firing pin spring.

Yeah, I've read those posts, and seen the video of what happens when there *is* an extended firing pin installed. (BANG!) People were also reporting that they could demonstrate a continuous physical linkage from hammer-->firing pin-->primer with the extended pins when the hammer is down, which (to me, at least) indicates that if such a gun was to fall on its hammer on a hard surface, ignition could occur. IMO that means extended firing pins are unsafe in CZs such as the Shadow/Shadow 2 which do not have firing pin blocks and should not be used in those guns, but I'm just a lowly C-class who occasionally ROs at local matches and would prefer not to get shot if somebody drops one, so I admit to some bias.

Jim Watson
11-15-2020, 12:12 PM
If they are using firing pins so long as to reach from down hammer to primer, would a firing pin block help?
If they are using firing pins so long as to reach from down hammer to breech face, would a firing pin block help?

Anecdote alert: About 50 years ago, a college classmate's father shot himself in the foot through not realizing that while a Star might look like a 1911, it did not have an inertia firing pin.

willie
11-15-2020, 01:09 PM
Let me point out a common misconception. But first I must declare that I have not observed it here. About non drop safe pistols. Some might think that the pistol, when dropped, must land on the hammer. Not so. Let's take the hammer out of the discussion. Discharge occurs when inertia of the firing pin over rides the firing pin spring. The pin moves forward with sufficient force to indent primer.

Back to pistols dropped on the hammer. If sear engagement and half cock notches are broken, then this can and most likely will cause the weapon to fire. In this example I'm thinking about 1911 type designs. I own, shoot, and tinker with CZ 75 pistols. I do not think that the robust hammer sear arrangement would break if one of these pistols were dropped.
Note I said do not think. It is an educated guess.

olstyn
11-15-2020, 01:23 PM
If they are using firing pins so long as to reach from down hammer to primer, would a firing pin block help?
If they are using firing pins so long as to reach from down hammer to breech face, would a firing pin block help?

I suppose probably not, given that the triggers in CZs apparently have to be all the way back through the entire decocking process in order to let the hammer go all the way forward. Perhaps they shouldn't be used in any non-decocker CZ, then.

YVK
11-15-2020, 01:36 PM
IMO that means extended firing pins are unsafe in CZs such as the Shadow/Shadow 2 which do not have firing pin blocks and should not be used in those guns

I agree.
About a year ago one of those extended pins got stuck solidly, protruding out of breech face hole. I replaced it with an OEM. That gun has not missed a bit since, no light strikes, and sub 3 lbs SA pull.
I wanted to remove the rest of those long pins awhile ago but forgot until now.

Jim Watson
11-15-2020, 04:05 PM
I agree.
About a year ago one of those extended pins got stuck solidly, protruding out of breech face hole. I replaced it with an OEM. That gun has not missed a bit since, no light strikes, and sub 3 lbs SA pull.
I wanted to remove the rest of those long pins awhile ago but forgot until now.

Doesn't have to be extended. An occasional fault of early Series 80 Colts was for the firing pin block to lock the firing pin forward. That done by dry firing, it left the firing pin protruding so far as to cause a jam rather than fire if you attempted to load the gun, therefore not a huge safety hazard.

Bucky
11-15-2020, 09:00 PM
Back to pistols dropped on the hammer. If sear engagement and half cock notches are broken, then this can and most likely will cause the weapon to fire. In this example I'm thinking about 1911 type designs. I own, shoot, and tinker with CZ 75 pistols. I do not think that the robust hammer sear arrangement would break if one of these pistols were dropped.
Note I said do not think. It is an educated guess.

The hammer was fully lowered, so there is no sear engagement involved.

YVK
11-15-2020, 10:34 PM
Doesn't have to be extended. An occasional fault of early Series 80 Colts was for the firing pin block to lock the firing pin forward. That done by dry firing, it left the firing pin protruding so far as to cause a jam rather than fire if you attempted to load the gun, therefore not a huge safety hazard.

Mine was a light fire. No fp block here. I think the main issue was a light fp spring that provided very little resistance or return power, and probably more tapered pin design.

Totem Polar
11-15-2020, 10:57 PM
63117

I don’t have a real dog in this hunt, because I haven’t shot an organized competitive match since the late 90s. But I’m pretty sure of this: if that first barrier didn’t have a big Glock sign on it, and if those 2 cardboards had old T-shirts and “gun” stencils on them, and someone posted the same pic and said it was from “instructor XYZ’s weekend defensive class” there’d be a P-F dogpile on instructor XYZ that makes the Rittenhouse event look like bingo night at the rest home. Tell me I’m wrong on that.

olstyn
11-15-2020, 11:36 PM
Totem Polar, I agree, which is why I was one of several people discussing the position of the camera guy unfavorably. To be honest, I'd rather the RO in that pic was in a safer position as well, but at least the shooter would have to blow it by a considerably wider margin to shoot her.

TheRoland
11-17-2020, 09:05 AM
I'm sure GJM with his vastly superior competition experience will be along to tell me all about the stacks of bodies he's seen at matches, but when I was researching this story I found exactly one incident of a fatal shooting in the last 10 years, and that was at an IPSC match in Canada.

The fact is that an accidental/negligent death at a shooting match is always going to be news, because dead bodies where you don't expect there to be dead bodies is automatically news. But doing a deep dive into search terms around stuff like this hasn't really turned up squat.

I'm not GJM, and ten pages later, so discussion has moved on... but I'm aware of other fatalities in the US over the last 10 years and a couple of life-changing injuries that haven't come up in this thread. I think some of them were discussed on this forum, but can't find the posts here or on Google.

I do not think it's a particular dangerous sport, but it's not yoga. There are injuries and deaths.

Zincwarrior
11-17-2020, 09:16 AM
I don’t have a real dog in this hunt, because I haven’t shot an organized competitive match since the late 90s. But I’m pretty sure of this: if that first barrier didn’t have a big Glock sign on it, and if those 2 cardboards had old T-shirts and “gun” stencils on them, and someone posted the same pic and said it was from “instructor XYZ’s weekend defensive class” there’d be a P-F dogpile on instructor XYZ that makes the Rittenhouse event look like bingo night at the rest home. Tell me I’m wrong on that.

Also, there's literally no reason the cameraman couldn't set up a remote camera in that position, or indeed anywhere, for even better pictures.
I have been to matches with cameras all over the place, and drones overhead.

The thought that cameraman is going to risk his life, and the RO his savings and future earnings (from the inevitable lawsuit) for a picture is not logical. :rolleyes:

NoTacTravis
11-17-2020, 09:38 AM
I don’t have a real dog in this hunt, because I haven’t shot an organized competitive match since the late 90s. But I’m pretty sure of this: if that first barrier didn’t have a big Glock sign on it, and if those 2 cardboards had old T-shirts and “gun” stencils on them, and someone posted the same pic and said it was from “instructor XYZ’s weekend defensive class” there’d be a P-F dogpile on instructor XYZ that makes the Rittenhouse event look like bingo night at the rest home. Tell me I’m wrong on that.

Not going to tell you you're wrong but I will point out that there's a logical fallacy in your premise...

If you fill in the gaps in your statement it would be:

If this incident had occurred at a singular event, put on by an unknown instructor, without a long history of identically structured events with a governing body in place keeping an eye on safety, and without a multi-year, multi-thousand event track record of incident free events making this a 0.1% occurrence in a sea of safe events, P-F would "dog pile" on it.



Do you see the difference between the two hypotheticals you mention beyond mere Glock signage and T-shirt draped targets?

JMS
11-17-2020, 10:04 AM
the RO can eat my whole ass if he tries to interfere by imposing his own interpretation of the rules. This is why we have a fucking rule book in the first place - so we can be clear on what is an isn’t allowed.

Yep, "show me the reference" is a thing, and a lot of folks either forget that, or like to feign having forgotten that because it suits their ability to Karen things. Chant about the spirit of a given rule all one wants, the LETTER of it is specified in a published item that's been through a vetting process. It may not have come down off of Mt Sinai on stone tablets, but there's also not a lot of wiggle room for "...but if Jethro don't like it, he can do whatever the fuck he wants and expect folks to jump."

Some hucklebuck RO doesn't like the 180 rule, and wants to add an extra 10-15* to it...that's not being safe, that's indulging in a desire to control other people, cleverly disguised as risk-mitigation. Those folks can EATADIK, it's no different than when the codgers didn't want AIWB folks to compete, despite divisions with clearly-written "no restrictions" specifications in terms of equipment placement. Feel about it however one wants to feel, the reference clearly defines where the line is drawn.

180* is 180*. If they wanted the limit to be 185*, that's what would be written in the rulebook; it's not. Folks need to find a way to deal with that, and it's not by power-tripping by citing "Safety..." as uttered in some melodramatic, hushed, reverent tone.

Totem Polar
11-17-2020, 10:13 AM
Do you see the difference between the two hypotheticals you mention beyond mere Glock signage and T-shirt draped targets?

No.

I’m discussing the picture, not the OP incident.

Normalization of deviance is a thing.

Thanks for reinforcing my point though.

Zincwarrior
11-17-2020, 10:32 AM
Yep, "show me the reference" is a thing, and a lot of folks either forget that, or like to feign having forgotten that because it suits their ability to Karen things. Chant about the spirit of a given rule all one wants, the LETTER of it is specified in a published item that's been through a vetting process. It may not have come down off of Mt Sinai on stone tablets, but there's also not a lot of wiggle room for "...but if Jethro don't like it, he can do whatever the fuck he wants and expect folks to jump."

Some hucklebuck RO doesn't like the 180 rule, and wants to add an extra 10-15* to it...that's not being safe, that's indulging in a desire to control other people, cleverly disguised as risk-mitigation. Those folks can EATADIK, it's no different than when the codgers didn't want AIWB folks to compete, despite divisions with clearly-written "no restrictions" specifications in terms of equipment placement. Feel about it however one wants to feel, the reference clearly defines where the line is drawn.

180* is 180*. If they wanted the limit to be 185*, that's what would be written in the rulebook; it's not. Folks need to find a way to deal with that, and it's not by power-tripping by citing "Safety..." as uttered in some melodramatic, hushed, reverent tone.

The rule says the shooter must not break the 180 correct? Thats not the issue.
The issue is that camera dude is unsafely close to that 180 at a location near a target. Camera dude is not subject to the rules. The shooter, RO, and range are however, subject to legal liability which trumps any rule, and RO is under no requirement that keeps him from just stopping until they go away. RO is not being paid. If you require the RO to expose themselves to increased liability there is no reason for the RO to continue.

Also, why are you making this an issue? Camera guy is in an unsafe position. Shooter could be Grandmaster Gundog but he could still slip. Camera man could easily reposition slightly or even better welcome themselves to the 21st century and install a nice remote camera to get even better shots.

JMS
11-17-2020, 11:02 AM
Camera dude is not subject to the rules.


Camera guy is in an unsafe position.

PARADOX!!

If he's not subject to the rules, then he cannot BE in an unsafe position.

You're doing it, right now: not basing it on the rulebook, but on what you THINK the rules are, or how you'd PREFER they read.

vcdgrips
11-17-2020, 11:08 AM
I am mildly amused by the chest puffing going on in this thread re where one would hypothetically stand because they are getting paid to take pictures and 181 is not 180 etc.

I suspect much of this puffing is a byproduct and the cousin of "victim selection" that predators do because you all have sized up the RO and/or MD and have determined you can get away with it.

If I was an RO and and I asked you to move and you did not, I just would not RO the stage until you did. I am not going to yell/scream etc. Life is way too short. I would do this despite the fact that I (and/or the folks I could summon) might be bigger/stronger/faster/more well trained than you and even on a named basis with the officers who would respond to the reported altercation because life is too short.

Having said that, I shoot with a guy in my local clubs. Let's call him Ivan. Ivan is a former Soviet Era Refugee/Vet of 3 armies (USSR/Israel/USA) Ivan is 6'0' tall and 5' 00'' wide shoulders and a 34 inch waist. If Ivan TELLS you to move when he is the RO, you are going to move.

I suspect there are a lot of IVAN types out in the world.

I suspect you who say you will not move think "EAT A D..." a lot louder than you actually say it to anybody remotely fit looking. But hey... if telling a retired 68 y/o guy who is about 5'9, 165 or 365 with a belly, "I am outside the 180 and the shooter will not shoot me because he/she is so good," rock on. Just know that Karma is a serious bitch.

It would also, I suspect, be of great comfort that you were "right" about your interpretation of the rules, as your asked somebody to plug in your motorized wheelchair because you managed to get yourself shot. Odds v Stakes and all that...

Be safe and well.

Zincwarrior
11-17-2020, 11:13 AM
PARADOX!!

If he's not subject to the rules, then he cannot BE in an unsafe position.


Thats a logical fallacy.

A cow walks into the bay.
A. The cow is not subject to USPSA rules because: 1) the cow is not a USPSA member; 2) is not participating in the competition; and 3) does not have the legal ability to contract because she's...a cow.

B. However the cow can still be shot if the cow wanders into the shooting area.

Therefor the cow can both be not subject to the rules; and be in an unsafe position.
Here endeth the lesson. And yes I did see a guy serenade said cattle before a match with a trombone. It was epic.


If I was an RO and and I asked you to move and you did not, I just would not RO the stage until you did. I am not going to yell/scream etc. Life is way too short. I would do this despite the fact that I (and/or the folks I could summon) might be bigger/stronger/faster/more well trained than you and even on a named basis with the officers who would respond to the reported altercation because life is too short.
Exactly. Its not difficult for the RO. The RO just stops. If the camera man complains to the MD and the MD says let him, the RO can continue to just..you know...stop. The worst that can happen is the RO gets to go home early and the MD now has a bad reputation among the RO community.

Casual Friday
11-17-2020, 01:08 PM
There was a bystander fatality about 20 years ago at a USPSA match in the midwest. The incident was taught as part of the USPSA RO school back when dinosaurs roamed and John Amidon was teaching those schools. The cause was a compromised berm that allowed a round to penetrate, then ricochet and strike an adolescent male who was at the range but not present in that berm in the head, killing him instantly. John taught the incident to emphasize the importance of inspecting the integrity of berms during set up before a match. Brush was concealing the berm defect in that case.

It is indeed rare, and that one was a freakish accident.

Shoutout to everybody who learned about this event from a Forensic Files episode 24 years ago. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1469601/


Also, side note: when I'm getting paid to take pictures, there's nothing more annoying that some "helpful" RO being all "hey you can't stand there" when I'm behind the 180 and the shooter is cool with it.

Plot twist. The shooter is Paul Harrell. Whaddya gonna do now Caleb???

Clusterfrack
11-17-2020, 01:18 PM
Its not difficult for the RO. The RO just stops.

Yep. A few years ago, I was ROing a first-time USPSA shooter who claimed all sorts of tactical training. This gentleman moved with his gun held vertically in front of his chin, Charlie's Angels style, almost breaking the vertical 180, with finger hovering just outside the trigger guard. I asked him not to do that after his first stage, and he was argumentative. On another stage, he crowded a wall and bumped his arms. Pretty much instinctually, I reached over his shoulder and grabbed the slide, pushing it forward to keep him from muzzling his head. Then I said "stop", and explained that he was getting a re-shoot, and that another RO would be stepping in because I didn't want to get his brains all over me if he shot himself in the head. I got some crap from him and some other shooters for that, but still think it was the right thing to do at the time.

jetfire
11-17-2020, 01:31 PM
Plot twist. The shooter is Paul Harrell. Whaddya gonna do now Caleb???

We all know that would never happen because Paul would never show up a shooting match that would actually test his skills

Bucky
11-18-2020, 07:17 AM
PARADOX!!
If he's not subject to the rules, then he cannot BE in an unsafe position.

Huh?

DDTSGM
11-18-2020, 11:01 AM
Why don't we all take a moment to pause and send helping thoughts to the family of the RO fatally shot. Seem to have lost focus.

mmc45414
11-18-2020, 12:30 PM
63117
I do think the GoPro might be a fisheye and making this look a little worse than it is, but I just gotta say I think there is no room for this in a recreational activity. I know motorsports photographers place themselves in dangerous positions in obvious impact zones, and there might be a correlation, but in that case there will be many laps when cars do not crash, in the case of shooting every shooter will be shooting.

CleverNickname
11-18-2020, 01:43 PM
I do think the GoPro might be a fisheye and making this look a little worse than it is
The Gopro does have a fisheye lens, but a fisheye distorts relatively little in the middle of the picture.

mmc45414
11-18-2020, 02:42 PM
The Gopro does have a fisheye lens, but a fisheye distorts relatively little in the middle of the picture.Yes, but I think it distorts the angle of the shoot box at the shooter's feet. When I first looked at the photo I thought the photographer was straight downrange and he is behind the magical 180 line. But perhaps the 180 line should run through the shooter's shoulders...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
11-18-2020, 02:53 PM
Why don't we all take a moment to pause and send helping thoughts to the family of the RO fatally shot. Seem to have lost focus.

Well said Dan, positive vibes/prayers take less time than composing a post.

HeavyDuty
11-18-2020, 03:10 PM
The Gopro does have a fisheye lens, but a fisheye distorts relatively little in the middle of the picture.

Don’t confuse angle of view with distortion. The angle of view at the optical horizon is accurate.

CleverNickname
11-18-2020, 03:21 PM
Yes, but I think it distorts the angle of the shoot box at the shooter's feet. When I first looked at the photo I thought the photographer was straight downrange and he is behind the magical 180 line. But perhaps the 180 line should run through the shooter's shoulders...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

No, he was behind the 180, though just barely.

mmc45414
11-18-2020, 04:14 PM
Yes, but I think it distorts the angle of the shoot box at the shooter's feet. When I first looked at the photo I thought the photographer was straight downrange and he is behind the magical 180 line. But perhaps the 180 line should run through the shooter's shoulders...

Don’t confuse angle of view with distortion. The angle of view at the optical horizon is accurate.

No, he was behind the 180, though just barely.
Yup, I drew two parallel lines through the targets and the cameraman, and also extended the shoot box.

63348

Seems like the position of the targets uses up about 170 of the 180.


Camera man could easily reposition slightly or even better welcome themselves to the 21st century and install a nice remote camera to get even better shots.
I sorta wondered that as well.



ETA: Yeah, some poor dude got killed volunteering to do something he liked doing that is typically quite safe. If it was inside or outside of the rules doesn't matter to him.

Why don't we all take a moment to pause and send helping thoughts to the family of the RO fatally shot. Seem to have lost focus.

DDTSGM
11-18-2020, 04:52 PM
ETA: Yeah, some poor dude got killed volunteering to do something he liked doing that is typically quite safe. If it was inside or outside of the rules doesn't matter to him.

Well, that was one of the things that frustrated me, he wasn't a cameraman, he wasn't - from what I've read - in any way shape or form, he was standing in exactly the wrong place when someone dropped a pistol.

How this morphed into the importance of the combat cameraman kind of escapes me.

Rmiked
11-19-2020, 08:00 PM
Bucky, what is the point you are making regarding the half-cock notch discussion below? I don’t have a 1911 and am not an expert in their operation/design. I do have a Beretta 92A1. If I am not mistaken , starting from the half-cock notch on the Beretta , you can pull the trigger and fully cock the hammer and release it as in double action mode. Is this what you are referring to as a problem? Or is the 1911 platform different than the Beretta in this regard? Thanks in advance. Just trying to understand potential problems that can be safety issues. The Beretta 92 is drop safe. I watched the testing that Ernest Langdon did in his shop. Very impressive and makes me glad I have a Beretta 92.

There are a lot of 1911 / 2011 with unsafe trigger jobs out there. Sometimes they come from "reputable" smiths as well. I'm not talking about being too light, either. Check your half cock notches. Put the gun in the half cock notch, then pull the trigger. If you can drop the hammer from half cock by pulling the trigger, please get this fixed. Actually, they test safeties at the chrono stage, I think they should add this test.

Jim Watson
11-19-2020, 08:33 PM
Colt 1911oids and some others no longer have a captive half cock notch. They have a "safety stop" that is not undercut. The hammer will fall when the trigger is pulled. The stop is lower on the hammer so it will not fall hard enough to fire. Perhaps to discourage the Mike Hammer fans from carrying at half cock.

Bucky
11-20-2020, 07:22 AM
Bucky, what is the point you are making regarding the half-cock notch discussion below? I don’t have a 1911 and am not an expert in their operation/design. I do have a Beretta 92A1. If I am not mistaken , starting from the half-cock notch on the Beretta , you can pull the trigger and fully cock the hammer and release it as in double action mode. Is this what you are referring to as a problem? Or is the 1911 platform different than the Beretta in this regard? Thanks in advance. Just trying to understand potential problems that can be safety issues. The Beretta 92 is drop safe. I watched the testing that Ernest Langdon did in his shop. Very impressive and makes me glad I have a Beretta 92.

There are a lot of 1911 / 2011 with unsafe trigger jobs out there. Sometimes they come from "reputable" smiths as well. I'm not talking about being too light, either. Check your half cock notches. Put the gun in the half cock notch, then pull the trigger. If you can drop the hammer from half cock by pulling the trigger, please get this fixed. Actually, they test safeties at the chrono stage, I think they should add this test.

The half cock notch on a 1911 is designed to catch the hammer should it slip off the sear. In a 1911, it’s not that difficult to unintentionally disable or hamper the functionality of this feature. Once I replaced the trigger (and bow) in an Ed Brown Kobra carry, and the half cock notch was no longer working. I immediately reverted back to the original unit.

You said you watched the Langdon videos, you’ll notice the hammer did trip and half cock notch caught the hammer from hitting the firing pin. Well, same thing in a 1911. Only on the Beretta it isn’t easy to unintentionally disable this feature.

Rmiked
11-20-2020, 08:37 AM
Thanks for the explanation. Very sad to hear about an accidental shooting. It may be possible to get complacent about handling loaded weapons when these events are so rare (accidental shootings). The competition environment contains fast manipulations. Drop safe seems like a very good thing to not bypass.

RJ
11-21-2020, 01:02 PM
Very sad to hear about an accidental shooting. It may be possible to get complacent about handling loaded weapons when these events are so rare (accidental shootings). The competition environment contains fast manipulations. Drop safe seems like a very good thing to not bypass.

100% agree. We, all of us, need to stop with the handbag-swinging at 5 paces, and work to better our on-stage activities. Same with our equipment, of whatever type/brand/maker we use.

I do find it interesting that at least one major trainer I know of specifically will not allow a non-upgraded P320 in his class. Yet USPSA is cool with non-drop fire guns, and has been, since forever, evidently.

Seems like an odd circumstance.

HCM
11-21-2020, 04:05 PM
100% agree. We, all of us, need to stop with the handbag-swinging at 5 paces, and work to better our on-stage activities. Same with our equipment, of whatever type/brand/maker we use.

I do find it interesting that at least one major trainer I know of specifically will not allow a non-upgraded P320 in his class. Yet USPSA is cool with non-drop fire guns, and has been, since forever, evidently.

Seems like an odd circumstance.

I think it is just giving you a clear illustration about the differences in mindset between the pure competition people and those who deal in practical application.

The technical aspects overlap but the mindset is different.

RJ
11-21-2020, 04:07 PM
I think it is just giving you a clear illustration about the differences in mindset between the pure competition people and those who deal in practical application.

The technical aspects overlap but the mindset is different.

Maybe.

Personally, I'd prefer not to get shot at either activity.

HCM
11-21-2020, 04:18 PM
Maybe.

Personally, I'd prefer not to get shot at either activity.

One thinks about “if something happens” the other thinks about mitigation for “when” something happens. e.g. someone is going to drop a gun sooner or later so let’s do what we can to make it less bad.

RJ
11-21-2020, 05:56 PM
One thinks about “if something happens” the other thinks about mitigation for “when” something happens. e.g. someone is going to drop a gun sooner or later so let’s do what we can to make it less bad.

Yeah, it’s probably revealing of the level (or lack thereof) of new shooters (like me) coming to competition sports, without existing or innate knowledge of how some firearms work. For example I learned in this thread an AR is apparently not drop safe, if chambered (correct me if I’m wrong, somebody). I also learned there are CZ Shadows, apopular choice, without FPBs, and which could also have extended firing pins. Or series 70 1911s. Now I know, there’s a decent probability a gun might go bang if dropped. Suddenly, the Dairy Queen ticket for a dropped gun doesn’t seem so onerous.

I will say at least at my local USPSA clubs, I’ve seen a bit more shenanigans during stages between ROs and competitors than I’d prefer. They all know each other of course. I’m not saying they’re towel-snapping each other on the butt during the load/make ready, but they could certainly pay more freaking attention to what’s going on. Similarly, the amount of useless loud BS conversations that are gong on just behind the start position doesn’t really help. At a match last year, I was given the L/MR. I looked up, and then pointed at the guy still pasting downrange. The RO had been running his mouth with his buddies and hadn’t noticed. I was like, dude, WTF.

That’s the reason I’ve searched to find the absolute brightest freaking day-glo lime-green shirts to wear at matches. I don’t really want to be hard to see when I’m down range setting steel or what not.

Anyway. Food for thought. I’ll be interested in how USPSA reacts to this tragic death.

HCM
11-21-2020, 06:05 PM
Yeah, it’s probably revealing of the level (or lack thereof) of new shooters (like me) coming to competition sports, without existing or innate knowledge of how some firearms work. For example I learned in this thread an AR is apparently not drop safe, if chambered (correct me if I’m wrong, somebody). I also learned there are CZ Shadows, apopular choice, without FPBs, and which could also have extended firing pins. Or series 70 1911s. Now I know, there’s a decent probability a gun might go bang if dropped. Suddenly, the Dairy Queen ticket for a dropped gun doesn’t seem so onerous.

I will say at least at my local USPSA clubs, I’ve seen a bit more shenanigans during stages between ROs and competitors than I’d prefer. They all know each other of course. I’m not saying they’re towel-snapping each other on the butt during the load/make ready, but they could certainly pay more freaking attention to what’s going on. Similarly, the amount of useless loud BS conversations that are gong on just behind the start position doesn’t really help. At a match last year, I was given the L/MR. I looked up, and then pointed at the guy still pasting downrange. The RO had been running his mouth with his buddies and hadn’t noticed. I was like, dude, WTF.

That’s the reason I’ve searched to find the absolute brightest freaking day-glo lime-green shirts to wear at matches. I don’t really want to be hard to see when I’m down range setting steel or what not.

Anyway. Food for thought. I’ll be interested in how USPSA reacts to this tragic death.

Most rifles and shotguns are not drop safe. Firing pin blocks on handguns didn’t really become a thing until the 70s and 80s. This was one of the things that drove the dominance of double action revolver’s in law-enforcement for so long.

Bergeron
11-21-2020, 06:13 PM
Thoughtful content.

Well. This.

There's a substantial amount of subtlety that goes into a firearm design. As an example, what does "drop safe" mean? A S70 1911 might not be "drop safe", but only if it has a steel firing pin, a weak firing pin spring, and is dropped directly on the muzzle, on a hard surface. In the case that got this thread going, we have a CZ-parttern, without a firing pin block, in a hammer-down state, hitting a hard surface, muzzle up, on the hammer.

I'm down for changing safety rules as result of real-world outcomes, and I have worked a number of professional jobs with safety rules written quite literally in blood, but I don't see what can realistically be done or changed to USPSA that would be able to address this particular incident. I shoot at local indoor club that hosts weekly matches, with mostly CO or Production shooters, so this more than academic to me.

Eyesquared
11-21-2020, 06:48 PM
I’ll be interested in how USPSA reacts to this tragic death.

Given their past track record, I think the organization's reaction will be to not react at all.

Clusterfrack
11-21-2020, 06:51 PM
...what can realistically be done or changed to USPSA that would be able to address this particular incident. I shoot at local indoor club that hosts weekly matches, with mostly CO or Production shooters, so this more than academic to me.

Allow Production and CO guns to start with hammer on decock notch. This is what I’ve been doing, unless told otherwise.

RJ
11-21-2020, 06:55 PM
I'm down for changing safety rules as result of real-world outcomes, and I have worked a number of professional jobs with safety rules written quite literally in blood, but I don't see what can realistically be done or changed to USPSA that would be able to address this particular incident. I shoot at local indoor club that hosts weekly matches, with mostly CO or Production shooters, so this more than academic to me.

I dunno, to be honest. Stop matches for a brief period and have clubs conduct a review of the rules we have in place now? Just spit balling.

I’m also familiar with safety as a professional. I was involved in an ASW weapon system in the UK in the 90s, based on the EH101 platform. During flight testing, one of our pre-Prod helo’s spiraled into a mountain. We lost the Italian Chief Engineer for Augusta, the test pilot, and two Royal Navy crew members. That day sucked.

We learned later that the (new design) rotor brake had apparently engaged in flight, heating up the (new design) carbon-fiber control rods. They melted. At that point they were passengers. We were grounded 18 months while the team came up with a solution (we reverted back to steel control rods, iirc.)

I hope that USPSA takes the opportunity to review everything in the rule book, stem to stern, so we can determine if any changes do in fact need to be made to lessen the risk of this happening ever again.

RJ
11-21-2020, 06:57 PM
Given their past track record, I think the organization's reaction will be to not react at all.

Well, if they do, good luck surviving the $5M wrongful death lawsuit.

Bergeron
11-21-2020, 07:14 PM
Allow Production and CO guns to start with hammer on decock notch. This is what I’ve been doing, unless told otherwise.

Allow or mandate start on deock notch? I agree that this is safer, and have no problems with it. What about hammer guns without decock/half-cock notches?

farscott
11-21-2020, 07:30 PM
Most rifles and shotguns are not drop safe. Firing pin blocks on handguns didn’t really become a thing until the 70s and 80s. This was one of the things that drove the dominance of double action revolver’s in law-enforcement for so long.

S&W added the drop safety feature to hand ejector revolvers after a dropped revolver on a ship caused a fatality in the early 1940s. I believe Colt added the "Positive Lock" feature that accomplished the same thing decades earlier.

Clusterfrack
11-21-2020, 07:36 PM
Allow or mandate start on deock notch? I agree that this is safer, and have no problems with it. What about hammer guns without decock/half-cock notches?

I don’t have a good answer. At this point, I would say “recommend”?

Jim Watson
11-21-2020, 08:22 PM
Rule change?
OK, no manual decocking, period. Your CZ (if not a D model) is in Limited only.

Bucky
11-21-2020, 09:40 PM
Rule change?
OK, no manual decocking, period. Your CZ (if not a D model) is in Limited only.

Sure, let’s make the most popular guns used in production no longer viable. :rolleyes:

Duelist
11-21-2020, 10:02 PM
S&W added the drop safety feature to hand ejector revolvers after a dropped revolver on a ship caused a fatality in the early 1940s. I believe Colt added the "Positive Lock" feature that accomplished the same thing decades earlier.

S&W had a drop safe design prior to that unfortunate sailor’s death. It wasn’t good enough to keep that revolver from firing when dropped to the deck from the extended height (IIRC) it unfortunately launched from. They improved the design significantly.

Clusterfrack
11-21-2020, 10:28 PM
Rule change?
OK, no manual decocking, period. Your CZ (if not a D model) is in Limited only.

Manual decocking isn't a problem.

Jim Watson
11-21-2020, 10:35 PM
Sure, let’s make the most popular guns used in production no longer viable. :rolleyes:

As the owner of a .45 revolver, my sympathy is limited.

HCM
11-21-2020, 11:10 PM
I dunno, to be honest. Stop matches for a brief period and have clubs conduct a review of the rules we have in place now? Just spit balling.

I’m also familiar with safety as a professional. I was involved in an ASW weapon system in the UK in the 90s, based on the EH101 platform. During flight testing, one of our pre-Prod helo’s spiraled into a mountain. We lost the Italian Chief Engineer for Augusta, the test pilot, and two Royal Navy crew members. That day sucked.

We learned later that the (new design) rotor brake had apparently engaged in flight, heating up the (new design) carbon-fiber control rods. They melted. At that point they were passengers. We were grounded 18 months while the team came up with a solution (we reverted back to steel control rods, iirc.)

I hope that USPSA takes the opportunity to review everything in the rule book, stem to stern, so we can determine if any changes do in fact need to be made to lessen the risk of this happening ever again.

The type of safety stand down you’re talking about is part of the serious used culture but I don’t think US PSA has ever done anything like that.

olstyn
11-21-2020, 11:31 PM
Rule change?
OK, no manual decocking, period. Your CZ (if not a D model) is in Limited only.

...or we could just prohibit extended firing pins, since that seems to prevent this issue. I mean, don't get me wrong, manual decocking makes me generally unhappy, but it's really just the shooter risking minor injury and a DQ when it's a stock firing pin.

YVK
11-22-2020, 01:03 AM
I've a more radical rule in mind. This is a 21st century, no manufacturer, except for SIG but even they got caught, can bring a serious duty gun to the market without a drop safety mechanism. USPSA is a sport with highest likelihood of guns being dropped comparatively to other shooting sports. They need to require mandatory firing pin safety mechanisms in all guns. It can be implemented without any appreciable performance decline in 1911s, 2011s, CZs etc. Biggest problem is negative effect on current gun owners so it has to be done with appropriate grace period. Say, 2035 - 2040 is the target year for mandatory compliance. Should be sufficiently long enough to shoot out all current guns and replace them with safer designs.

cheby
11-22-2020, 01:10 AM
I've a more radical rule in mind. This is a 21st century, no manufacturer, except for SIG but even they got caught, can bring a serious duty gun to the market without a drop safety mechanism. USPSA is a sport with highest likelihood of guns being dropped comparatively to other shooting sports. They need to require mandatory firing pin safety mechanisms in all guns. It can be implemented without any appreciable performance decline in 1911s, 2011s, CZs etc. Biggest problem is negative effect on current gun owners so it has to be done with appropriate grace period. Say, 2035 - 2040 is the target year for mandatory compliance. Should be sufficiently long enough to shoot out all current guns and replace them with safer designs.

2035-2040?? I agree with everything!

CleverNickname
11-22-2020, 01:20 AM
USPSA is a sport with highest likelihood of guns being dropped comparatively to other shooting sports.
I'd say 3-gun is worse than USPSA in this regard because in 3-gun, competitors often have to drop a (supposedly, hopefully) unloaded gun in a safe barrel or other receptacle while on the clock.

But yeah, neither are benchrest or something.

YVK
11-22-2020, 01:40 AM
I'd say 3-gun is worse than USPSA in this regard because in 3-gun, competitors often have to drop a (supposedly, hopefully) unloaded gun in a safe barrel or other receptacle while on the clock.


Don't think they have to be unloaded, just put on safe.
Last match of any kind I shot this year was 3G and one of the top guys DQ'D. His Atlas fell out of his holster. Not sure what retention he had.

Jim Watson
11-22-2020, 10:01 AM
...or we could just prohibit extended firing pins, since that seems to prevent this issue. I mean, don't get me wrong, manual decocking makes me generally unhappy, but it's really just the shooter risking minor injury and a DQ when it's a stock firing pin.

Enforcement would call for a technical inspection unlikely to happen at anything less than a major championship.

I doubt anything will be done... unless there are lawsuits with large judgements and consent decrees forcing USPSA to make some sort of rule change.

HeavyDuty
11-22-2020, 10:30 AM
That’s the reason I’ve searched to find the absolute brightest freaking day-glo lime-green shirts to wear at matches. I don’t really want to be hard to see when I’m down range setting steel or what not.

My club can be very quiet, and I’m always conscious of people showing up while I’m downrange pasting. I have a couple of hiviz items I keep in the car for club range wear to try and mitigate that exposure. The flags and cones should be enough, but you’ll never get rich overestimating people’s common sense.

HeavyDuty
11-22-2020, 10:36 AM
Sure, let’s make the most popular guns used in production no longer viable. :rolleyes:

Hey, asbestos used to be popular, too.

olstyn
11-22-2020, 11:02 AM
Enforcement would call for a technical inspection unlikely to happen at anything less than a major championship.

That's generally true, I suppose, but it would be easy enough to take care of it at registration/check in. "I see you're shooting a CZ Shadow. You running the stock firing pin?" Sure, people could lie, but at least you'd get *some* compliance.


I doubt anything will be done... unless there are lawsuits with large judgements and consent decrees forcing USPSA to make some sort of rule change.

On this point, we agree.