Donut bullets??? WTF

[Crazy Dane]

https://i.ibb.co/6vkqc75/304-AC729-90-D2-479-E-B076-B3002-FFDFB99.jpg (https://ibb.co/cbjsKSd)

https://i.ibb.co/yXDFMcS/F10-A9538-ED87-4-C1-E-A47-A-C3-FC467-CC972.jpg (https://ibb.co/Y36BKFZ)

https://i.ibb.co/X7mgbPZ/D49-F0-BD1-1254-4-F46-80-B0-CACB7252-E9-D7.jpg (https://ibb.co/0CPScLj)

https://i.ibb.co/MMMcwm6/ABA63-F10-B1-A4-442-C-8-D45-79-CF3-D7-DF13-A.jpg (https://ibb.co/t88qj9X)

https://i.ibb.co/kSFzbnZ/CD5508-BA-77-B6-44-D8-9-FA6-84-C9-DF0573-BB.jpg (https://ibb.co/fx7Z6RJ)

I was digging through an ammo box that contains a lot of my ammo for hunting and I run across a small box of .38/357 that I had got from my dads house when I cleaned it out. In it was just a random assortment of different loadings. There was a dozen of these and I noticed that they felt really light. Curiosity got the best of me and I had to pull one. I was shocked to see a hole all the way through the bullet. Then it got me again when I found the plastic over wad still in the case. I cant pull the over wad with a kinetic puller and I don't want to damage it if I can help it. Dad Retired in '96 and sold/gave away any .38/357 guns he had. so the rounds have to be at least that old.

The case head stamp is PMC .38 Special +P.

Bullet weight is 65grn and appears to be all copper?

[Velo Dog]

PMC Ultramag

https://d.facebook.com/InternationalAmmunitionAssociation/photos/a.379784625384412.99462.192932667402943/2032208186808706/?type=3&__tn__=EH-R

[BobM]

Was that the Thunderzap? I remember the tubular round being advertised, maybe in the late 80s?

[Duelist]

I remember those being advertised as like a flying cookie cutter or something, but I can’t imagine the penetration would be worth a crap.

[CCT125US]

https://d.facebook.com/InternationalAmmunitionAssociation/photos/a.379784625384412.99462.192932667402943/2032208186808706/?type=3&__tn__=EH-R

International Ammunition Association
Around 1985 / 1986, PMC would adapt a design by Abe Flatau (designer of the ring-airfoil and steel nose Guilford HP pistol bullet) in their own line of "Ultramag" cartridges in .38spl and .44spl. The first .38spl projectiles were true hollow cylindrical bullets with a tapered nose and plastic obturating base. These were made of brass (66 grains) and had decent, yet limited enhanced penetration abilities at 1,500fps. These were effective against soft body armor, but not against steel plate, or hard metals. The federal law restricting pistol-caliber AP bullets would soon follow in August, 1986, and so PMC would switch their now restricted brass bullets over to 100% copper. Using copper would more or less defeat the intended purpose of real enhanced penetration, and these copper tubular bullets would continue on as a novelty of sorts for a few years until PMC gave up on the concept altogether. The initial brass bullets were only produced for a year or so in .38spl, and are fairly rare today as collector’s items. The copper versions are much more common, and full boxes of .38spl can be found via auction websites at times for anywhere from $40 to $75, with the .44spl boxes being worth closer to $100

[Crazy Dane]

PMC Ultramag

https://d.facebook.com/InternationalAmmunitionAssociation/photos/a.379784625384412.99462.192932667402943/2032208186808706/?type=3&__tn__=EH-R



^^^^ Nailed it! Thank you, I couldn't find anything on google.

I may put one or two up to just have and shoot the others just to see. Unless somebody has a better idea...

[awp_101]

^^^^ Nailed it! Thank you, I couldn't find anything on google.

I may put one or two up to just have and shoot the others just to see. Unless somebody has a better idea...

Know anyone set up to do proper gel testing? That could be interesting. 5pins maybe?

[5pins]

Sell them. They are going for $10 a round here.

https://collectibleammunition.com/product/38-special-p-tubular-dummy-display-pmc-38-splp/

[Doc_Glock]

Sell them. They are going for $10 a round here.

https://collectibleammunition.com/product/38-special-p-tubular-dummy-display-pmc-38-splp/


Now I am sad I shot up an apparently $100 box of Nyclad recently. 😕

[Archer1440]

Sell them. They are going for $10 a round here.

https://collectibleammunition.com/product/38-special-p-tubular-dummy-display-pmc-38-splp/

So, cheaper than 9MM right about now, then.



(And no, I’m not joking, as it turns out...)


https://alamoammo.com/pistol-ammo/9mm-luger/9mm-winchester-147-gr-supreme-black-talon-deep-penetrator-sxt-20-rnds-collectors-m-id-s9mm-upc-020892205017?m1track=xml&utm_source=xml&utm_medium=cse&utm_campaign=export_feed&source=xml

[Crazy Dane]

Sell them. They are going for $10 a round here.

https://collectibleammunition.com/product/38-special-p-tubular-dummy-display-pmc-38-splp/


I found this one https://collectibleammunition.com/product/38-special-tubular-pmc-38-spl/ I don't think there is a lot people lining up to buy these.

Silly question, do you want half a dozen to run through the jello?

[5pins]

I found this one https://collectibleammunition.com/product/38-special-tubular-pmc-38-spl/ I don't think there is a lot people lining up to buy these.

Silly question, do you want half a dozen to run through the jello?

I actually has a friend who has some but thanks for the offer.

[HeavyDuty]

Was that the Thunderzap? I remember the tubular round being advertised, maybe in the late 80s?

Not Thunderzaps - I have some of those stashed away, they were 100% Nylon or similar.

[5pins]

https://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z271/reloader1959/shoots/thunderzap.jpg

[awp_101]

https://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z271/reloader1959/shoots/thunderzap.jpg

I'm barely up on today's ammo designs, much less 25+ years ago. What benefit were those supposed to have? Reduced over-penetration?

[HeavyDuty]

I'm barely up on today's ammo designs, much less 25+ years ago. What benefit were those supposed to have? Reduced over-penetration?

Richard Davis used to claim they were intended to be a shock design (I don’t remember the exact terms he used) - they were extremely light, fast and loud without overpenetration. I bought a small quantity back in the day (24?) and tried a cylinder load in my first run 640. They set off an incredible dust cloud at the club’s inside range. I don’t think he was the inventor, but he flogged them through Second Chance.

[5pins]

Gimmick ammo has been around for a long time.

[bfoosh006]

I remember those... I vaguely remember the Donut bullet being advertised as a tire deflating "Wunder Bullet"... cutting a Donut hole rather then just poking through.

[dogcaller]

I shot a lot of Ultramags back in the day, when I was cutting my teeth on a GP-100. They were relatively inexpensive at the time. Didn’t do any gelatin testing or anything of the sort. Blew up some 2-liter water bottles.

[DueSpada]

The wounding rationale of the tubulars seems to be the same as a hard cast wadcutter. Just way, way more wicked. Hurts just to look at them.

[Crazy Dane]

The wounding rationale of the tubulars seems to be the same as a hard cast wadcutter. Just way, way more wicked. Hurts just to look at them.


I would like to see someone shoot some jello with them. I will donate these to the cause. I do have an old soft panel that I may shoot with one to see if the round will go through. These are the copper ones not the earlier brass rounds that did have a claim of defeating body armor.

[358156hp]

Dean Grennell used to refer to the Ultramags as "Fearless Fosdicks", after an old Dick Tracy character who, like Dick Tracy was a Police Officer but got into a lot of gunfights , then showed up in the next few panels of the cartoon with bullet holes through him. He always seemed to recover quickly though.
63325

[DocGKR]

We tested them back in the day--nothing special and don't crush much tissue....

[Velo Dog]

We tested them back in the day--nothing special and don't crush much tissue....

Apparently the 38 Special version had marginal penetration of 9-12 inches in bare gel. Is that correct?

[ECVMatt]

I sold a ton of those in the early 90's. We did not have much other than Federal 9BPLE and the Hydra-Shok in the exotic category. Glaser Safety Slugs were in semi-production and Peter Pi was starting Corbon if I recall correctly. Then came the "Doughnut of Death" and Black Talon. Black Talon was almost unobtainable for non-LE people due to high sales, but the Doughnut of Death was pretty well stocked. We sold a ton of them. They kind of remind me of neon clothing from the 80's; neat to see and brings back memories, but what the heck were we thinking?

[octagon]

The B A T Blitz Action Trauma 9mm rounds had a cavity than ran through the bullet. I believe they were all copper too. They did have more of an open hollow point cavity at the tip with a smaller dia. hole towards the base and a plug for feeding that was ejected during firing. Interesting concept.

[Jim Watson]

Back when they were on the market, I saw a picture of a gelatin block shot with an Ultramag.
The author split the block and found a narrow permanent cavity but laid out a rope of gelatin cut free by the tubular bullet.

The BAT (sensational name applied by Phil Engeldrum of Pistolero magazine) was the Geco Action Defense in Europe. It was meant to feed through a hardball gun, then the rounded plastic nose plug blew off when fired. As I recall, it might expand a bit but was also considered useful for putting clean leaky holes in tires.
MEN had the Quick Defense bullet but with the round nose formed by a thin copper dome that would crush into the cavity upon impact.
The current MEN PEP 2 and QD 1 have plastic balls in the nose cavity, akin to the Cor Bon Pow R Ball.

Fearless Fosdick was a parody of Dick Tracy, not a Dick Tracy character.
It was Li'l Abner's favorite comic strip. In fact, when Li'l Abner got engrossed in a Fearless Fosdick adventure, the Li'l Abner strip would BE Fearless Fosdick for days on end.
Poor old Fosdick was paid so little that he only got one good meal a week, when his girlfriend Prudence Pimpleton fried him a large steak. She was the police chief's daughter and he hated to see her dating a cop, but gave in to her that one day a week. She was just as square jawed as Fosdick but had a figure approaching Daisy Mae's.