Let's talk about vetting carry ammo

[feudist]

in the time of the Covid.

Ammo is scarce and two and a half to three times as expensive as it was before the pandemic and the commie riots.

Carry ammo, when you can find it, is shockingly expensive. An additional problem is that ammo made under huge back logs can have less QC and QA.

With that in mind how do we vett ammo to carry? What are the best practices?

Throwing ammo at it doesn't assure function, as I found out twice. I had a Gen2 Glock 17-chosen specifically under the doctrine of "original caliber/original engineering",

like people recommend 5" 1911s in .45acp, and shun the .40 and .45 caliber Glocks.

I tested this gun with over 500 rounds of Blazer ammo, then I fired an additional 500 rounds of duty ammo, Winchester 127+P+ Ranger Talon. I shot the Winchester

at a private lesson with a USPSA GM, fast and furious.

I then fired another 200 rounds trying to make it malfunction. Not cleaned and dry as a bone I fired one handed strong and weak, fired with elbow and wrist limp.

I fired laying supine holding the gun by thumb and trigger finger only with the gun upside down.

Moving at a sprint forwards, backwards and sideways, jerking the trigger as fast as I could, typically with splits in the .14-.16 range-jailbait.

Then I put the gun in service and for the next 2 years I only shot Blazer and 127+P+ through it for over 16,000 rounds(remember when Blazer Aluminum

was 84.50 per thousand?)

Not a single, solitary malfunction. Nothing. No stoppage, jam, light strike or hesitation of any kind.

There was a total of two full cases of 127+P+ shot through it.

One night I ran a box of 50 127+P+ through it at the range and cleaned it.

The next afternoon I shot a charging pit bull outside a Post Office where he had a dozen people hemmed up.

He came so fast that I had to take 2 steps back as he slid to a stop dead at my feet. I fired 5 rounds and hit him 5 times in the head and neck.

My Glock was jammed with a horizontal stove pipe.

wat?

Guess what? The gun never ran right again. I took it to my gunsmith and had him check it out. Nothing. It just didn't work right, regularly choking in various different ways.

I bought a brand new Gen3 2003 vintage 17. Changed to Gold Dot 124+p and conducted a near identical vetting process.

A year later, another dog shooting and at 6 rounds the gun chokes, I tap/rack and it double feeds. I drop it and draw my 442 carried AIWB Werner style and finish it.

Again, no apparent cause of malfunction.

I nearly went back to a Model 10.

[DMF13]

. . .I shot a charging pit bull . . .

. . . A year later, another dog shooting . . .If I was you I'd be worried about this guy:
62803

Seriously though. It sounds more like you've been extremely unlikely with the guns (and dogs), not the ammo.

I will say, I'm always curious about the obsession of rounds through the gun itself, when one of the leading causes of malfunctions in semi-auto firearms is problems with the magazines. I've seen people say they won't trust a firearm until it's had "X number of rounds using "duty" ammo, without a malfunction," but they don't apply that same standard to the individual magazines.

[GJM]

I think a leading cause of stoppages with polymer pistols is how you hold them.

[feudist]

I think a leading cause of stoppages with polymer pistols is how you hold them.

Elaborate, please.

[feudist]

If I was you I'd be worried about this guy:
62803

Seriously though. It sounds more like you've been extremely unlikely with the guns (and dogs), not the ammo.

I will say, I'm always curious about the obsession of rounds through the gun itself, when one of the leading causes of malfunctions in semi-auto firearms is problems with the magazines. I've seen people say they won't trust a firearm until it's had "X number of rounds using "duty" ammo, without a malfunction," but they don't apply that same standard to the individual magazines.

I forgot to mention mags.

I had 5 mags numbered and tested as duty mags. All the testing was done through these. They were rotated through the entire test cycle.

They went into service and stayed loaded (download x 1) and were emptied and reloaded every couple of months.

Al ammo was case gauged and plunk tested.

All practice was through a set of practice mags.

[GJM]

I have been told that when someone commits suicide with a Glock, there is commonly a stovepipe. When I was more interested in fast draws, presentations under .55 commonly caused a stoppage for me in Glock pistols. I have also encountered stoppages when not holding the pistol firmly.

With a metal pistol you have weight, but with polymer your grip needs to substitute for weight.

[TheNewbie]

I have been told that when someone commits suicide with a Glock, there is commonly a stovepipe. When I was more interested in fast draws, presentations under .55 commonly caused a stoppage for me in Glock pistols. I have also encountered stoppages when not holding the pistol firmly.

With a metal pistol you have weight, but with polymer your grip needs to substitute for weight.


The grip related stoppages don’t seem to be as common with the M&P and other polymer guns. Maybe I just haven’t seen it and it is an issue.

What do you think?

[Padwan]

I had to replace my carry ammo last month. I usually run 124 gr HST but all my local dealer had in stock was 200 rounds of 147 gr Golden Sabre. Best I could do was to check that all boxes came from the same lot, and to inspect each round before paying for the ammo.

At the range, I loaded the 3 magazines I use for carry then shot freestyle, SHO, and WHO. Thankfully, no issues apart from the need to drift my sights a bit. Normally, I like to run 200 rounds of new-to-me ammo in my carry gun but that’s not doable at this time.

[RJ]

Let’s see...I went through vetting three carry guns over the last year and a half: a Glock 43X, a Sig P365XL, and a Glock 48.

First, I chose these models for carry due to their reputation as a ‘quality’ firearm.

Then, I looked at Docs list to select from carry ammo I could get in reasonable (^200 round) quantities from decent sources (sgammo, Targetsports). This ended up being Federal HST 147 and Speed GD 124+p.

After that, I ran 300-500 rounds of good brass FMJ (Federal America Eagle 115/124) with a criteria of 0 malfunctions. While doing that, I mixed in about 25% carry ammo, again, criteria of 0 malfunctions.

By the time I got to near 600 or so rounds total, I felt confident enough to trust the pistol with my life. All three pistols passed (well I am at 280 with the G48 but don’t expect any trouble.)

While I would like to shoot 500 or more SD rounds, and 2,000 FMJ, it’s just not affordable these days, so the above is the compromise I ended up with.

[BehindBlueI's]

I have been told that when someone commits suicide with a Glock, there is commonly a stovepipe.

Yes, but certainly not limited to Glocks.

I couldn't get our duty pistols to "limp wrist" malfunction holding it with two fingers like chopsticks and pushing the trigger with a finger on my other hand during T&E.

[JonInWA]

Due to the lack of availability and cost (of both ball range/target and carry cartridges), if I were to introduce a new gun into my stable at this point, I would likely run 50-100 rounds through the gun at a square range to verify function and zero, and perhaps 1 magazine of select carry cartridge(s).

The gun would then be used for training, qualification and IDPA matches.

And, in a response to one of the OP's comments, I personally don't shun Glock's G21 or G22-with the caveat that my personal G21 is a Gen 3, with thousands of rounds through it, with ony one operational issue-a filure to chamber a malformed Winchester White Box cartridge that was unchamberable in any gun, and my G22 is a Gen4 that I purchased some 5 years after the Gen4 G22 introductioon, when all the flies had been worked out, and has run flawlessly with both ball and hollowpoint duty ammunition (and I'm looking forward to getting one of the Gen5 G22s in the future).

For duty ammunition, I use DocGKR-vetted selections, with a strong default to Speer Gold Dots. Doc's recommendations are also echoed by the choices of my local police department; they use Speer Gold Dot and Winchester Ranger, the norm being the Gold Dot with thhe Ranger being the back-up choice depending distributer availability. For range/practice/match, my preference is to Sellier & Bellot 180 gr, but these days I'm not being picky, using what quality factory 180 gr or 165 gr that I can get-fortunately still some S&B, Federal, PMC Bronze, Remington/UMC.

The amunition situation we're currently in, due to a combination of COVID-19 and foreign sourcing supply constraints, civil disturbances and national uncertainty is the worst I've personall experienced. The only cartridges that seeem to be both reasonably available and somewhat reasonably priced is .40...My expecttion from all sources that I discuss this with is that the ammunition constraint situation will persist through some point in 2021. I inevitably see an impact in personal and organzational training, and in matches-both in terms of round counts and participation period.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

I think aircraft power plant reliability is a reasonable comp. It is generally accepted that the first hours on a new engine and the last hours before overhaul have the greatest probability of mechanical failure. In other words, get through out of the box failures and initial break in, and you are likely to have reliable service until the engine wears out.

If you apply this to a handgun, do initial vetting and you are likely OK until the pistol wears out parts. Of course, a part can always fail early, causing an issue with a handgun just like with an aircraft engine.

The other big variable for an aircraft engine is fuel, and bad fuel can cause an otherwise reliable engine to have problems. This correlates to ammo related problems with the handgun.

For all these reasons, airlines run multi engine aircraft, and there is probably an argument for a BUG, to give yourself redundancy.

[BN]

I forgot to mention mags.


I used to shoot a lot of IDPA/USPSA with Glocks. I have a Gen 2 that I'm guessing has near 100,000 rounds. I used the same 4 or 5 mags all the time. The gun ran near perfect until the time it didn't. I replaced the mags with new ones and then it ran fine again.

I've had the same thing with a couple of Gen 3s.

My theory is that a combination of worn mag springs, worn recoil springs, and shooting under pressure caused the malfunctions. It was usually some sort of misfeed. It always happened to me during a match where I was pushing it. Never happened in practice. What I usually did was just go to my backup Glock for my main gun. Later I would buy new mags and replace the recoil spring and the malfunctioning gun would go back to working alright.

[GAP]

Personally, I never got into just blazing through ammo. If your gun will push 100 of them through the same magazine with no problems, just designate that specific magazine for carry use only.

After that, each range trip I shoot the chambered round to ensure function from it’s carried state.

It gives me peace of mind and allows me to confirm function with just one additional round.

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

If this stoppage seems to occur when responding to a dog, I would take the pistol to an outdoor range (or be creative with a way to safely test) and duplicate the steep downward angle and test firing in that condition.

It is possible that the steep downward angle is contributing to the stoppage along with the change in grip caused by adrenaline and that angle and impeding the slide movement a little.

[Nephrology]

I like to put a case of ammo through any gun I am planning on carrying. This has as much to do with my personal confidence in the pistol as it does an objective measure of the pistol's reliability itself.

I won't carry a gun that malfunctions more than ~once per ~one thousand rounds. It reassures me to have witnessed those thousand rounds in person before I carry the gun.

[Archer1440]

Runs thousands of rounds of overpressure ammo and 16K rounds of aluminum cased ammo through an arguably outdated pistol (or at least one which has been considerably re-engineered) with a large number of those rounds run with no lube, maintenance, or parts changes mentioned.

Complains when said pistol eventually fails.

OK.

[pangloss]

I'm in the thousand round camp too. Most of those rounds will be range ammo with a few mags of carry ammo. I have multiple vetted pistols, so if one became a problem pistol during an ammo shortage, I could switch to another pistol and not have to worry about finding ammo to verify function. None of my Glocks have ever had a problem with any carry ammo. That's not an excuse to not verify a new pistol, but this topic is not something that I spend a lot of time worrying about. If I were LE, I'd give more thought to the matter.

I also think that the common gun philosophy applies to some degree to ammo. Pick Glock/HK/Beretta+Gold Dot/HST/Ranger, and you're probably tilting the odds in your favor.

[Lester Polfus]

I think a leading cause of stoppages with polymer pistols is how you hold them.

Unless it's a Glock 20 running hard casts load, then guys on the internet who could only afford to shoot half a box of hard cast will tell you you're limp wristing, even though you know you're choking lt like a chicken.

I think one key is to pick a gun and ammo combo that is in service with a large .mil/.gov agency. Then you have thousands of data points to tell you whether there is a systemic issue with that gun/ammo combo. So if you pick a Glock 19 with 124 grain Gold Dots, it's been beta tested by thousands of people shooting millions of rounds. You then just have to figure out if there is anything about your particular pistol that needs fixing.

I know Glock's reputation, but I don't know that I would pick a +p+ load as a carry load, and shoot lots of it in a gun I intended to carry.

[19852+]

The grip related stoppages don’t seem to be as common with the M&P and other polymer guns. Maybe I just haven’t seen it and it is an issue.

What do you think?

I had a HK P-30 that did not like a compromised grip. Good firm 2 hand grip no problem. Standing behind the pistol, good stance, firm grip, strong hand or off hand g2g but anything else? Stovepipe every time.

I wish I could afford to fully vet carry ammo but what I can do is reload using similar bullets and load to the velocity of the defensive ammo. My newest mags are carry mags, once they've proven themselves. A new mag comes into service, gets proven then bumps the next mag down. The oldest get used for training, the middle are used in competition. Works for me.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think one key is to pick a gun and ammo combo that is in service with a large .mil/.gov agency. Then you have thousands of data points to tell you whether there is a systemic issue with that gun/ammo combo. So if you pick a Glock 19 with 124 grain Gold Dots, it's been beta tested by thousands of people shooting millions of rounds. You then just have to figure out if there is anything about your particular pistol that needs fixing.

I completely agree. It may get me kilt in the streets, but I ran 10 rounds of my carry ammo through my Glock 45 after 200 rounds of range ammo and called it good.

[Suvorov]

As I recall from my statistics classes, 30 is seen as the smallest sample size that will give valid results. Bigger is better of course but that usually results in increased cost, so 100 is seen as a good ratio of cost to results.

For me, I feel comfortable with a box of 50 in an otherwise reliable gun.

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

When I get new carry ammo, I lay them all out on dry, clean paper towels and take a tissue and roll them to get rid of any excess die lube. I also roll them with a little stick watching the case mouth to make sure that there are no deformities from the dies. A slight deformity in the case mouth can interfere with feeding.

I also feel around the entire rim and headstamp for any burrs or edges that could interfere with feeding or extraction.

I visually check all primer seating depths when they're still in the box.

[Hambo]

A year later, another dog shooting and at 6 rounds the gun chokes,

Shooting dogs is bad karma.


I have been told that when someone commits suicide with a Glock, there is commonly a stovepipe. When I was more interested in fast draws, presentations under .55 commonly caused a stoppage for me in Glock pistols. I have also encountered stoppages when not holding the pistol firmly.

That's got to be a small subset of suicides, but putting that aside, I think you're onto the problem.


I won't carry a gun that malfunctions more than ~once per ~one thousand rounds. It reassures me to have witnessed those thousand rounds in person before I carry the gun.

Kids these days. There's a reason we practiced malfunction drills. Even my legendary P7 puked more than once per thousand.


I completely agree. It may get me kilt in the streets, but I ran 10 rounds of my carry ammo through my Glock 45 after 200 rounds of range ammo and called it good.

I've done the same thing. When we changed brands of duty ammo, which seemed like it was every 2-3 years, getting to shoot 50 rounds of it for practice was a big deal. Because, duty ammo is for duty, practice ammo is for practice. :rolleyes:

[Rex G]

I think that at least some of my past “limp wrist” malfunctions have actually been “numb thumb” malfunctions. I did much damage to my right thumb and wrist, holding N-Frames improperly, in an effort to get enough finger on the trigger, in the Eighties. Many of the rounds fired were big-bore Magnums. With this off-centered hold, muzzle flip was not straight upward, but torqued to my left.

Starting in the Nineties, I dealt with several bouts of carpal tunnel issues, causing by typing in ergonomically-compromised positions, as our patrol cars became our “offices.” Paddling canoes and kayaks, and riding bicycles, caused additional cumulative trauma.

If my right shoulder/arm/hand are having a bad day, I can detect the weakness in my right thumb, ring finger, and pinkie, while my index and middle fingers remain strong.

I experienced malfs with a full-sized, all-steel 1911, one day, when I felt that my right shoulder/arm/hand were “having a bad day.” The same happened with my P229R .40. Neither of these weapons are “known” for being particularly susceptible to “limp-wristing.”

I have not experienced any malfunctions, of any kind, ever, with Gen3 or Gen4 G17 Glocks. Perhaps, just luck? Maybe I have only fired them on “good” days, or “good-enough” days? Even so, when I resume carrying G17 pistols, it may well be in lefty holsters, with a revolving pistol carried right-side. (Presently, I am very concerned about bringing COVID home to my wife, whose health profile is high-risk. I need to live-fire Glocks frequently, to maintain acceptable skill, so I live in a mostly-revolver world.)

[feudist]

Runs thousands of rounds of overpressure ammo and 16K rounds of aluminum cased ammo through an arguably outdated pistol (or at least one which has been considerably re-engineered) with a large number of those rounds run with no lube, maintenance, or parts changes mentioned.

Complains when said pistol eventually fails.

OK.

Ah, no.

The no lube was just during the vetting process. I lube weekly (phrasing)

I did change the recoil spring once.

what about the Gen3? While 127+P+ may arguably be overpressure, Gold Dot +P certainly isn't.

I think GJM hit on the only real solution: 2 guns. I don't think any vetting process could be more thorough than what I used(still use)

I think malfunctions are vastly under reported and actually ignored by firearm shooters. I had an SKS that would reliably jam every 80-100 rounds.

A shooting buddy swore repeatedly that his had never ever malfunctioned over thousands of rounds. We go shooting and his jammed damned near immediately.

Was that the first? I doubt it.

[Rex G]

On the original topic, I have long been a believer in vetting each carry mag, and mercilessly culling, either by relegating them to training-only, or, in the cause of two Kimber mags, crushing them in a vise, to make certain that no unfortunate soul would ever use them to protect life.

[Nephrology]

Kids these days. There's a reason we practiced malfunction drills. Even my legendary P7 puked more than once per thousand.


Listen, every malfunction drill I practice is one sub-second draw and magdump into an IPSC target 3 yards away that I won't be able to post to the 'gram

[feudist]

As I recall from my statistics classes, 30 is seen as the smallest sample size that will give valid results. Bigger is better of course but that usually results in increased cost, so 100 is seen as a good ratio of cost to results.

For me, I feel comfortable with a box of 50 in an otherwise reliable gun.

This was a question I had: what is a statistically valid number of tests?

With that info you then select a round off of Doc's list.

GJM mentioned the "Bath tub" shaped life cycle: infant mortality, expected service life, end of life failures.

Take the gun, a set of numbered duty magazines and several types of quality practice ammo: 115, 124 and 147. I would try to include both soft and hard primered brands.

Fire the practice ammo a sufficient number of times(2x the statistically valid number? 10x?) to rule out QC/QA issues and take the system past "infant mortality".

Then start firing duty rounds through Mag#1. First test a chambered round 10 times to check it will cycle correctly against full magazine spring pressure. Have the first round

in the magazine be a duty round too, to check that bullet position's feed reliability. Then test each position's feeding(e.g, rounds #1 through #15) 10x.

Repeat this through all the duty mags. If that number reaches statistical success, you are done.Or continue until you're happy.

I would fire the gun from every conceivable grip and position. I would then visually inspect each round to be carried: primer, case mouth and case gauge/plunk test.

And practice malfunction clearance. And carry a B.U.G.

Have I missed anything?

[GyroF-16]

^^^^^^^
I like it.

[DAB]

i chose a gun that others have well tested, Beretta 92. i chose ammo that others have well tested, Hornady Critical Duty 135gr. combine, fire a few shots so i know how it feels, call it a day.

our wonderful military spent a fortune testing and sorting out the 92. our wonderful FBI spent a fortune testing and accepting the Critical Duty 135, including making sure it passed their barrier penetration tests. no point in redoing all that testing from scratch.

if you want to fire lots of rounds thru your gun to assure yourself that it's a good combo, go for it.

[DDTSGM]

I think a leading cause of stoppages with polymer pistols is how you hold them.


Elaborate, please.


I have been told that when someone commits suicide with a Glock, there is commonly a stovepipe. When I was more interested in fast draws, presentations under .55 commonly caused a stoppage for me in Glock pistols. I have also encountered stoppages when not holding the pistol firmly.

With a metal pistol you have weight, but with polymer your grip needs to substitute for weight.


Yes, but certainly not limited to Glocks.

I couldn't get our duty pistols to "limp wrist" malfunction holding it with two fingers like chopsticks and pushing the trigger with a finger on my other hand during T&E.

My experiences put me in the camp of 'it's many things, grip, arms and shoulders working in combination.'

I've tried numerous ways to get auto-pistols to malfunction, gripping at the bottom of the grip, holding the pistol with none of the support fingers on the grip, and so on, with no success.

ETA: when testing function with compromised grip, always use a mag with dummy rounds after the live round in the chamber.

Yet, I've watched numerous student officers experience malfunctions with those same types of pistols - all of which had gone through a complete armorer's take=down and inspection (versus a mere function check) before stepping onto our range.

[GyroF-16]

i chose a gun that others have well tested, Beretta 92. i chose ammo that others have well tested, Hornady Critical Duty 135gr. combine, fire a few shots so i know how it feels, call it a day.

our wonderful military spent a fortune testing and sorting out the 92. our wonderful FBI spent a fortune testing and accepting the Critical Duty 135, including making sure it passed their barrier penetration tests. no point in redoing all that testing from scratch.

if you want to fire lots of rounds thru your gun to assure yourself that it's a good combo, go for it.

That sounds like a good start...
But the long history of the M9 demonstrates the validity of the gun design. It doesn’t tell you whether your sample was manufactured to spec, and whether that particular gun is reliable.
The FBI demonstrated that the Critical Duty 135 gr met recommended standards for penetration and expansion. It doesn’t tell you anything about reliable interaction of the particular cartridges you bought with the combination of the particular pistol and magazines that you have.

So, buying a quality firearm, and quality ammunition is a great starting point. But there is certainly something to be said for validating the combination in your hands before betting your life on it.

[BehindBlueI's]

My experiences put me in the camp of 'it's many things, grip, arms and shoulders working in combination.

I've tried numerous ways to get auto-pistols to malfunction, gripping at the bottom of the grip, holding the pistol with none of the support fingers on the grip, and so on. Yet, I've watched numerous student officers experience malfunctions with those same types of pistols - all of which had gone through a complete armorer's take=down and inspection (versus a mere function check) before stepping onto our range.

I wonder if it's slide drag.

[DDTSGM]

Regarding vetting of pistols - after making sure the pistol functions by firing rounds through it, I'm most concerned with magazines. Here's what suggest with every carry mag using carry ammo:

1) Loads when full from slide lock using slide catch/release;

2) Loads when full from slide lock using overhand;

3) Functions when full after in-battery reload;

4) Functions with one round loaded after out-of-battery reload using slide catch/release;

5) Functions with one round loaded after out-of-battery reload using overhand;

6) Functions with one round loaded after in-battery reload;

7) Tests 4 - 6 also ensure last round lock back on each mag several times.

If you have five carry mags, the above tests take as little as 30 rounds. If you want to do it up good you could add:

- Functions 3 or 4 rounds loaded after in-battery reload;

- Functions with 3 or 4 rounds loaded after out-of-battery reload using slide catch/release;

- Functions with 3 or 4 rounds loaded after out-of-battery reload using overhand.

My thoughts are if a mag functions with full spring compression, and with one-round spring compression, it will function in between.

Additionally, I believe if you carry a pistol, you carry it cleaned and lubed, not with a hundred rounds fired since last cleaning.

[Joe Mac]

I wonder if it's slide drag.

I was just going to post the same thing -- how big are your hands?

I worked with a cop with huge mitts, good shooter, with a proven reliable pistol. He got into a shooting and his Glock stovepiped on the first round... Later at the range he was able to duplicate the malfunction with his sausage thumbs riding the slide, and figured that was likely the problem. Under stress he hadn't felt it.

[DDTSGM]

I wonder if it's slide drag.

You mean from thumbs against slide?

Generally if a student had a malfunction, they were expected to clear it and continue. The instructor would then go over the cause if overt, otherwise discuss probable causes and corrective actions. If it occurred again, generally the instructor would quickly exam the pistol and then fire the pistol to ensure it was functioning properly. If it continued and it wasn't overtly something the shooter was doing, the pistol would go back to the range office and one of us would go through it.

In my experience, in most cases it is the shooter, not the pistol.

Excuse me if I missed the meaning of your response.

[DDTSGM]

I was just going to post the same thing -- how big are your hands?

I worked with a cop with huge mitts, good shooter, with a proven reliable pistol. He got into a shooting and his Glock stovepiped on the first round... Later at the range he was able to duplicate the malfunction with his sausage thumbs riding the slide, and figured that was likely the problem. Under stress he hadn't felt it.

I guess my post wasn't clear - wasn't talking about myself. I was trying to make the point that my experiences were that pistols function properly when test-fired with compromised grips. Yet, somehow folks do things that induce stoppages (or the dreaded Glock BTF) and I generally believe it is a combination of factors.

I also edited my initial post to add this safety caution: when testing function with compromised grip, always use a mag with dummy rounds after the live round in the chamber.

[lwt16]

My son bought a 19X the other day. Took it out and he said he got malfunctions aplenty. I’m a Glock armorer so I checked it out and fired it myself without issues.

Asked him to show me his grip.

62827

We went a couple of hours ago and once he moved that thumb the gun ran fine.

Regards.

[BehindBlueI's]

You mean from thumbs against slide?


Yes.

[DAB]

That sounds like a good start...
But the long history of the M9 demonstrates the validity of the gun design. It doesn’t tell you whether your sample was manufactured to spec, and whether that particular gun is reliable.
The FBI demonstrated that the Critical Duty 135 gr met recommended standards for penetration and expansion. It doesn’t tell you anything about reliable interaction of the particular cartridges you bought with the combination of the particular pistol and magazines that you have.

So, buying a quality firearm, and quality ammunition is a great starting point. But there is certainly something to be said for validating the combination in your hands before betting your life on it.

and that's where you get different opinions. how much "vetting" is sufficient? i've shot this pistol and other similar ones many times, thousands of rounds of range ammo. i don't recall the last malfunction. it's been a while. my stash of Critical Duty ammo is limited, so i reserve it for it's intended use. what i have fired, has all worked.

i'm satisified with my gear.

[JBP55]

I buy HST or Gold Dot for carry and American Eagle or Lawman for range work.
I clean, lube and fire a few rounds of carry and range ammunition through each new pistol.
I have been shooting for more than 60 years and every round I purchased worked in my pistols.

[DMF13]

Based on being forced to carry guns with little to no "vetting," due to how things played out in my LE career, I'm going to offer a somewhat contrarian view of this issue.

Several times I was issued a gun where I got little, or even no, opportunity, to "vet" it, prior to having to carry it on duty. Often it was; clean/inspect it, maybe fire a 50 round qual course, load for duty carry, and get to work. It might be several days, or even weeks, before I'd have an opportunity to go shoot the pistol on my own. Over the years, I eventually shot the snot out of most of those guns (as an AFOSI reservist there were occasions I had to carry a pistol that I never got a chance to shoot), and none of them were revealed themselves to be unreliable. I'd have some mags eventually go bad, and one time I wore out the slide release spring on a Glock (you really should follow Glocks suggestions for how often springs should be replaced :eek:), but never had any of the SIGs I was issued, or the Glocks I was issued, have major problems.

Over the years I've seen two pistols, both Glock 22s, that suddenly turned into "jam-o-matics." Both had several thousand rounds through them when the problems showed up. I was an armorer by then, and thoroughly examined the guns both times it happened. I tore them apart, detail cleaned them, and replaced any parts that were even slightly suspected of being a problem. The first was all gunked up, because the agent had been dowsing his gun in oil, like he used to do with his Beretta and SIGs, and the striker channel was packed with crap, and so was the extractor. Again, best to follow Glocks advice to only sparingly oil the gun in the few spots they recommend. After the very thorough cleaning it was flawless. The other had been properly maintained, and I couldn't get it to work despite my best efforts, several other extremely experienced armorers couldn't get it to work right either. So it was taken out of service and scrapped. No one can explain why that happened, but it was one pistol, out of thousands in service with our agency, and it occurred after thousands of rounds had been fired through the gun. No 200, 500, or even 1000 round "vetting" process would have revealed that the gun was full of gremlins just waiting to pounce.

So I say, if you have purchased a quality firearm and mags, and have quality ammunition suitable for the firearm, you are extremely unlikely to have problems with the firearm. Clean and inspect it, function check it, and if able put a few magazines through it, then carry on (pun intended).

Having said all that, I now fully expect to be "tarred and feathered," by the forum members! :cool:

[FNFAN]

When I came into my current agency, the initial firearms day was 350 rounds of practice ammo and here here's your 40 rounds of duty ammo. Firearms trainer thought it was quite a waste of my money for me to run 100 rounds I had purchased through the gun. Of course he also thought it a waste of money to buy something other than the issued Serpa holster, so there's that.

[feudist]

I think KevH is onto it.

Malf clearing should be done at every practice session, live and dry. Carry a spare mag because that's the fastest way to clear a jam.

Carry and train with a BUG. Practice the transition. The best place to carry it is AIWB weak hand. I carried mine with a Barami Hip Grip and a Tyler T grip.

I used a 442 and with the Hip Grip it rode very low tucked behind my duty belt just aft of my mag pouch. Our shirts were navy blue so it wasn't noticeable.

Any input on what a valid statistical number of rounds is? 20 rounds would prove the gun/mag/ammo system to less than 1/20. Do it for four mags(gun, 2 spares plus

off duty) and that's two boxes of duty ammo. You'll need a third to load up all four with. That leaves a handful to replace your chambered round with after reloading

several times if you see any setback.

[willie]

Guys like me should identify themselves as hobbyist and then admit that there once formal training was taught by men who are long dead. I did learn that lot numbers identified batches of ammo produced at the same time. Further, a case of ammo contains that from the same lot. Vetting ammo from the same case allows us to make generalizations about 1 box to the rest in the lot in our possession. When I open a new box of defense ammo, I dump the entire box onto a towel. With clean hands I examine each as I put the rounds back into the box. I did find a deformed case in one instance.

I have bought many defective pistols. Kel Tec takes 1st prize. Springfield Armory, FN, CZ, and Colt contributed to this list. I would lie about owning a Taurus or Hi Point. CZ is now good. Smith and Glock are good. Staying within these groups assures one that their new purchase will most likely function correctly.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I think a leading cause of stoppages with polymer pistols is how you hold them.
I was going to add on to this, but then KevH responded ...


feudist

What you're describing is not that uncommon.
<snip>

Your malfunctions appeared during "Oh SNAP!" moments (being charged by dogs). Watch a bunch of OIS body cam videos and you will frequently see malfunctions that I'm sure the involved officers seldom or never experienced in training. I can tell you from prior experience that your brain/body do weird things under stress and that combined psychological/physiological response commonly causes issues between your biological hand and your mechanical gun.

There is NO WAY to replicate real life lethal force scenarios in training....NONE! Why? Because your body only produces and discharges chemicals during those type of situations. I think the closest thing you can do is some type of SIMS that actually induces pain, but even that isn't quite the same. The only way to get inoculated to stress (combat) is equal stress (combat). Since that is very rare in civilized society chances are you will never reach that point. Even then there are other variables.

The only thing you can do is try to train as best you can. This is why malfunction clearance drills are important and should become mechanical second nature. As for your Gen2 Glock, I wouldn't trust the opinion of a "gunsmith." Back to Glock it would have gone.

<snip>

With the number of BWC recorded shootings, gunfights that are out there, watching them you'll see a bunch of stoppages occur. Ones that appear as if they would be quite difficult to recreate on the range. I think they happen because of grips that are good enough to get the gun out of the holster and one to a few rounds off but not much more than that. Why? A startled reaction, rather than a planned one - Oh Kitten! That dude just shot at me! versus Let's go detain & arrest that known to be armed bad guy & I'll start by drawing my pistol. As KevH mentioned, that sudden stress can't be easily, if at all, replicated in training.

At one point last year, I saw back to back to back OIS videos with odd stoppages involving just Glocks. Why the frequency of Glocks? The sheer number of them out there? If I thought there was still a real large number of Gen 3 .40SWs out there, I'd add that to my hypothesis.

[deputyG23]

in the time of the Covid.

Ammo is scarce and two and a half to three times as expensive as it was before the pandemic and the commie riots.

Carry ammo, when you can find it, is shockingly expensive. An additional problem is that ammo made under huge back logs can have less QC and QA.

With that in mind how do we vett ammo to carry? What are the best practices?

Throwing ammo at it doesn't assure function, as I found out twice. I had a Gen2 Glock 17-chosen specifically under the doctrine of "original caliber/original engineering",

like people recommend 5" 1911s in .45acp, and shun the .40 and .45 caliber Glocks.

I tested this gun with over 500 rounds of Blazer ammo, then I fired an additional 500 rounds of duty ammo, Winchester 127+P+ Ranger Talon. I shot the Winchester

at a private lesson with a USPSA GM, fast and furious.

I then fired another 200 rounds trying to make it malfunction. Not cleaned and dry as a bone I fired one handed strong and weak, fired with elbow and wrist limp.

I fired laying supine holding the gun by thumb and trigger finger only with the gun upside down.

Moving at a sprint forwards, backwards and sideways, jerking the trigger as fast as I could, typically with splits in the .14-.16 range-jailbait.

Then I put the gun in service and for the next 2 years I only shot Blazer and 127+P+ through it for over 16,000 rounds(remember when Blazer Aluminum

was 84.50 per thousand?)

Not a single, solitary malfunction. Nothing. No stoppage, jam, light strike or hesitation of any kind.

There was a total of two full cases of 127+P+ shot through it.

One night I ran a box of 50 127+P+ through it at the range and cleaned it.

The next afternoon I shot a charging pit bull outside a Post Office where he had a dozen people hemmed up.

He came so fast that I had to take 2 steps back as he slid to a stop dead at my feet. I fired 5 rounds and hit him 5 times in the head and neck.

My Glock was jammed with a horizontal stove pipe.

wat?

Guess what? The gun never ran right again. I took it to my gunsmith and had him check it out. Nothing. It just didn't work right, regularly choking in various different ways.

I bought a brand new Gen3 2003 vintage 17. Changed to Gold Dot 124+p and conducted a near identical vetting process.

A year later, another dog shooting and at 6 rounds the gun chokes, I tap/rack and it double feeds. I drop it and draw my 442 carried AIWB Werner style and finish it.

Again, no apparent cause of malfunction.

I nearly went back to a Model 10.

Ed Lovette, in his book, The Snubby Revolver, writes,
“A number of years ago, the New York City Police Department (NYPD) did a study of a 10-year period during which officers of the department were involved in 6,000 armed confrontations. They could not document a single instance in which an officer’s revolver failed to fire during one of these confrontations”
A VSP trooper friend of mine, in the late ‘80s, had a DUI suspect manage somehow to get him in a chokehold from behind. He had to shoot the suspect off of him with his M64. Two rounds, I believe.
I wonder if any of their subsequent SIG semi-auto pistols would have done as well in that instance.

[SWAT Lt.]

I have seen otherwise totally reliable Glocks malfunction when the shooter, for whatever reason, moved the gun backwards as he fired a round. These guns were inspected and also passed "limp wrist testing" without issue. Moving the gun back just as it fires may be the cause of some of the malfunctions that are observed in real-life events that are not experienced on the range (or in testing). These events would include any type of sudden stress-inducing incidents such as being suddenly attacked, firing while quickly moving back away from an immediate threat, or new recruits who may be unfamiliar with and/or intimidated by firearms. Not much rearward movement of the firearm is needed to cause a stoppage as long as it occurs at the right moment.

[ST911]

Have you ever heard of plunk testing carry rounds? In addition to visual inspection, field strip your pistol and 'plunk' each duty round into the chamber to make sure they will chamber.


I have heard of it and don't find it necessary with quality factory ammo. If you want to get really fancy you can use a gauge for all your ammo, but it isn't necessary. I'm more worried about flipped primers (which I have seen).

The value of the plunk test is exaggerated, like a lot of other stuff. The concept is valid though, and if it's been awhile since you've bought a new supply of a historically trusted load it may be worth doing if you can't or don't want to shoot some it. Manufacturers make subtle changes all the time and impact compatibilities. Plunk testing isn't an indicator though, and shouldn't be a substitute for live fire function testing.

[mmc45414]

I think aircraft power plant reliability is a reasonable comp. It is generally accepted that the first hours on a new engine and the last hours before overhaul have the greatest probability of mechanical failure.
Of course, a part can always fail early, causing an issue with a handgun just like with an aircraft engine.
Years ago I worked for a software company that had a relationship with Hendrick Motorsports. I was visiting them the week after Gordon had completely dominated the prior race, right up until his engine abruptly failed with only a few laps to go. At that time they were managing over a hundred engines between their teams and lease engine teams, and every one of them would be run on a dyno before they ever went in a car or onto a hauler or sent to an outside team. At that time, based on the then current rules package (no final drive ration spec), valve springs were one of the limiting factors on peak RPM, and consequently one of the most highly developed components in the engine. My contact had a broken valve spring on his desk, the failure point from that engine. There was a miniscule void in that particular piece of wire that had been wound into that particular spring that made it into that particular engine. I would expect it was tested before it would be put into an engine, and it only needed to cycle a little while longer before it would have been discarded intact during the next rebuild.

No amount of testing would have found that, sometimes shit is just gonna happen.

[fixer]

I have seen otherwise totally reliable Glocks malfunction when the shooter, for whatever reason, moved the gun backwards as he fired a round. These guns were inspected and also passed "limp wrist testing" without issue. Moving the gun back just as it fires may be the cause of some of the malfunctions that are observed in real-life events that are not experienced on the range (or in testing). These events would include any type of sudden stress-inducing incidents such as being suddenly attacked, firing while quickly moving back away from an immediate threat, or new recruits who may be unfamiliar with and/or intimidated by firearms. Not much rearward movement of the firearm is needed to cause a stoppage as long as it occurs at the right moment.

I've experienced this. When running drills very aggressively, trying to wring out that extra 0.2 seconds, moving in different directions, I've had my Glocks stovepipe. This happened when I was focused on moving aggressively and not exactly on the shooting, per se.

I think generically you can move fast enough to disrupt the dynamics of the feeding cycle. Its just inertia.

Lighter pistols may be more susceptible.

[feudist]

I've experienced this. When running drills very aggressively, trying to wring out that extra 0.2 seconds, moving in different directions, I've had my Glocks stovepipe. This happened when I was focused on moving aggressively and not exactly on the shooting, per se.

I think generically you can move fast enough to disrupt the dynamics of the feeding cycle. Its just inertia.

Lighter pistols may be more susceptible.

Has anyone ever induced a malf like that with a metal framed pistol?

Does anyone believe that there is a more reliable pistol than Glock? Not general reliability, as all modern pistols are well designed, but in more subtle ways like

weight or...well, something else?:o

[DDTSGM]

The value of the plunk test is exaggerated, like a lot of other stuff. The concept is valid though, and if it's been awhile since you've bought a new supply of a historically trusted load it may be worth doing if you can't or don't want to shoot some it. Manufacturers make subtle changes all the time and impact compatibilities. Plunk testing isn't an indicator though, and shouldn't be a substitute for live fire function testing.

I didn't think we were talking about vetting the ammo or pistol, rather as a check of carry ammo before placing it into service.

I can't say that I have ever found a duty load that has failed the plunk test, but that is a very small subset of all the ammunition I've seen/handled over the years. I've seen numerous instances of manufacturing booboo's in both new and re-manufactured training ammunition.

FWIW - I case-gage everything that goes through my pistols now. Love those hundo gages, use them even if I've bought match ammo for an event.

I will say that most of the defects I've seen - flipped or missing primers, malformed case heads, and rounds loaded cock-eyed, wrinkling or ripping the cases, were easily detected upon visual inspection.

[fixer]

Has anyone ever induced a malf like that with a metal framed pistol?

Does anyone believe that there is a more reliable pistol than Glock? Not general reliability, as all modern pistols are well designed, but in more subtle ways like

weight or...well, something else?:o

I obviously don't have peer reviewed, statistical data with confidence intervals...but...never had this happen with B92 on same drills, same ammo. I even ran ridiculously worn out magazines in my training batch.

[LtDave]

I have been told that when someone commits suicide with a Glock, there is commonly a stovepipe. When I was more interested in fast draws, presentations under .55 commonly caused a stoppage for me in Glock pistols. I have also encountered stoppages when not holding the pistol firmly.

With a metal pistol you have weight, but with polymer your grip needs to substitute for weight.

I was lead investigator on a couple of suicides where a Glock 9mm was used. In both cases, the empty casing remained in the chamber, no stovepipe. In another case involving a semi auto shotgun, empty hull was still in the chamber.

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

...Does anyone believe that there is a more reliable pistol than Glock?...

Though I have very limited experience with Glocks and cannot address "more" reliable, I have had excellent results with my PX4 Storms. In 137,700 rounds on my PX4 .45s and another 37,428 on another PX4 .45, there have been no malfunctions or stoppages during use. With normal quality ammo I have experienced no malfunctions during assorted drills and usage.

Drills with running, diving, prone, supine, kneeling, barricade, one hand shooting, limp wristing, steep angles, shooting behind, from retention, upside down and anything I could imagine up.... no stoppages or malfunctions with quality ammo. At the indoor range when someone has trouble with junk ammo not working, we test it in a PX4 and the pistol fires the ammo.

Range magazines are dropped in dirt, on concrete, in mud, etc.... no stoppages.

I have 9 PX4s and unquestionable reliability is the common quality.

[JRB]

Two things here jump out at me:

Inspection of the particular weapon matters just as much as selecting good ammo and mags. There are good guns that come out bad due to tolerance creep or manufacturing errors or whatever. But that's why it's best to run a few hundred rounds of trustworthy ammo through them to know for sure.
Alternatively, sometimes you get a 'bad' gun that comes out good by pure happenstance. An old Army buddy of mine has a Taurus PT92 that his father bought in the late 80's, and that pistol runs like my 'old faithful' G2 G19 and basically refuses to hiccup, ever.

The second thing is attention to all the other variables. Grip is one, draw is one, carry method is another, holster is another, maintenance is yet another, and the awkward truth that cycling magazines, ammo, etc is also cycling variables. There's no way to minimize all the variables. We can practice and practice and do our level best but it's damn near impossible to pare down everything to a bonafide single variable experiment so long as the shooter is human.

But that's also why we adamantly advise folks to buy proven carry guns with good reputations and good ammo as well as good holsters. Minimize the human component and you'll generally do alright.

Better still are 'second options' like backup guns that offer a fresh set of all of those variables in case something else fails.




When I get new carry ammo, I lay them all out on dry, clean paper towels and take a tissue and roll them to get rid of any excess die lube. I also roll them with a little stick watching the case mouth to make sure that there are no deformities from the dies. A slight deformity in the case mouth can interfere with feeding.

I also feel around the entire rim and headstamp for any burrs or edges that could interfere with feeding or extraction.

I visually check all primer seating depths when they're still in the box.

Human nature is such a funny thing. There are literally tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of gun owners that would laugh at such efforts.

But at the same time, if they learned such diligence and attention to detail was a hallmark of the surgeon trying to save their child from some likely-lethal health condition, they'd applaud it and cherish it and be immensely grateful to have a surgeon so dedicated to his craft.
The stakes are similar in both, which is why I couldn't help but comment on it.

I sincerely hope that Beretta appreciates what you've done in the process of vetting their pistols.

[Hot Cereal]

I don't think there is any point to shooting hundreds of rounds of a specific type of ammo through a gun to vet reliability. If there aren't any issues in the first 100 rounds, there likely won't be. In my opinion, pretty much any service style pistol that isn't hand fitted will digest most normal JHP style ammo. Anything after that is either a one-off issue or a QC issue with the ammo manufacturing.

I'm currently loading my 9mm pistols with 124 HST, standard pressure. The performance is fine, bullets penetrate and expand, but damn this ammo is slow. Out of my P2000 this ammo clocks 1080fps and out of my APX Centurion 1050fps. It barely makes 1100 fps from my Glock 17. That's abnormal for Federal stuff. The 124 +P HST I have from a 2016 lot easily makes 1200fps from my Glock 17. I don't know what it is, but I think Federal loaded this stuff light. I bought some AE9AP (124gr FMJ) with the standard pressure HST and that too is pretty light, 1030fps from the APX, 1050fps from the P2000, and just under 1100fps from my Glock 17. QC issue? Maybe. It goes bang, penetrates and expands. Works for me, for now. I will say, when ammo comes back around I might switch to the +P variety if the chronograph results are still low. I don't care about a 50-70fps difference between +P and standard pressure, but almost 100fps is a bit much.

In .45ACP I've been satisfied with Remington Golden Saber 230gr. It's reliable, accurate, and expands. In .40 the nod goes to 165gr HST. Same thing, it just works.

I think after 50 or so rounds you pretty much know what you're gonna get. Stick to quality ammo and that's been my experience.

[feudist]

So I googled "Minimum number to be statistically significant" and got 100 as the answer from several places.

But I also got 30 "because of the central limit rule". Like, whatever, as if.

So I've read some trainers opinions and they're all over the map.

The most common is the standard 200 duty after 500 ball break in. This was ToddG's position.

Claude Werner wrote that if the gun was carried with 3 mags then all it needed to do was fire 3 mags. I found that questionable coming from him and wonder if I

missed sarcasm somehow.

Hilton Yam showed a feedway test for the 1911/2011 that involved just hand running the rounds through a couple of tests.

A question was asked about testing the Glock and he was like yeah, whatev. He felt that modern pistols had properly designed mags that point the round at the chamber.

Quite a few people in this thread and many others I've read state unequivocally that guns are designed to work and therefore it'll work. Or that 10 or a mag full is sufficient.

I can't dispute the fact that I took a famously reliable pistol and tested it as thoroughly and extensively as I could --and still had jams.

Revolvers anyone? :cool:

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

... I sincerely hope that Beretta appreciates what you've done in the process of vetting their pistols.

Thanks for the supportive words!

[WDR]

Revolvers anyone? :cool:

I wont be burning up a bunch of my carry ammo vetting new guns any time soon, but I have enough to confirm zero, rotate on schedule for a year or two, etc, and not feel short. If it comes down to carrying ball at some point, then we cross that bridge when we get there.

I'm carrying around a Gen5 Glock that has had just over 600 rounds through it, probably 3/4 ball/handloads, and about 1/4 of that my carry load. So far, its worked fine. I don't sweat it. If it malfs, clear it and move on.

As for revolvers, I put a couple boxes worth of carry loads through my 442 after I put a spring kit in it, after shooting some (theoretically) harder primer steel cased tula junk, and a bunch of CCI. Same idea... if it malfs, clear it and move on. Feeding isn't really an issue here. About the only thing that has to happen is the round has to fit the charge holes, not have enough bullet pull to tie up the cylinder in 5-6 rounds, and the primers have to reliably pop.

If it works with ball, and feeds a couple mags worth of your carry load, it's probably gonna be okay. Unless it's a 1911... then you'll be kilt in the streetz. Or a revolver, that'll get ya kilt too.

[Padwan]

I'm currently loading my 9mm pistols with 124 HST, standard pressure. The performance is fine, bullets penetrate and expand, but damn this ammo is slow. Out of my P2000 this ammo clocks 1080fps and out of my APX Centurion 1050fps. It barely makes 1100 fps from my Glock 17. That's abnormal for Federal stuff. The 124 +P HST I have from a 2016 lot easily makes 1200fps from my Glock 17. I don't know what it is, but I think Federal loaded this stuff light. I bought some AE9AP (124gr FMJ) with the standard pressure HST and that too is pretty light, 1030fps from the APX, 1050fps from the P2000, and just under 1100fps from my Glock 17. QC issue? Maybe. It goes bang, penetrates and expands. Works for me, for now. I will say, when ammo comes back around I might switch to the +P variety if the chronograph results are still low. I don't care about a 50-70fps difference between +P and standard pressure, but almost 100fps is a bit much.


That is strange indeed. My practice ammo for the past year was a remanufactured 124 grain FMJ that chronos between 1080-1090 out of my G17s. My carry ammo until recently was 124 gr HST standard pressure and the ones I got (circa 2019) were pretty warm. Never chronographed them but they felt very much like Winchester 124 gr NATO, a load that not many would consider mild. You're probably right about this being a QC issue and with demand for ammo being what it is, manufacturers are likely trying to meet demand as fast as they can. Anything can happen under those circumstances.

[Hot Cereal]

That is strange indeed. My practice ammo for the past year was a remanufactured 124 grain FMJ that chronos between 1080-1090 out of my G17s. My carry ammo until recently was 124 gr HST standard pressure and the ones I got (circa 2019) were pretty warm. Never chronographed them but they felt very much like Winchester 124 gr NATO, a load that not many would consider mild. You're probably right about this being a QC issue and with demand for ammo being what it is, manufacturers are likely trying to meet demand as fast as they can. Anything can happen under those circumstances.

I have to look at the boxes, but I bought this at the end of February 2020 so its likely a lot from the end of 2019. To this date, the hottest 9mm standard pressure ammo I've used has been Speer Lawman 115gr. I had actually thought about switching to 115gr Gold Dot and using only Speer ammo, but then the ammodemic hit. I like the idea of a robust 115gr bullet that travels around 1200fps, still penetrates and expands to 1.5x original diameter. I wish Hornady or someone would load the 115gr XTP to 1200fps. That is an underappreciated bullet.

[HeavyDuty]

I’ve traditionally done 500 rounds of ball and then a minimum of 100 rounds of carry, but with the current shortages I’ve suspended vetting newer guns and am sticking with a few ones that I have shot enough to be comfortable with. I may try a modified test with the new 43x since I really want to put that into rotation, but I can’t say that I feel crippled with the 43, 26.5, 45 and 33.4 being trusted.

[JWH]

Tangential to this, for those who “LEGO” gun combos, like GJM’s G19s: How do you vet each combo? Is each combination treated like it’s own new gun?

[Zincwarrior]

Elaborate, please.

Limp wristing can be an issue with some pistols.

[rayrevolver]

I like this process from Hilton. I have used it on new magazines and a few ammo types as a confidence check, even though my 2011 is not a bedside/HD weapon.


https://youtu.be/lD9qVwDLpW8

[lwt16]

I just bought a second (personal backup to my current duty pistol) G45.

I took it out and ran about 150 rounds through it. I'll opt for the department issue load (Remington 147 Golden Saber bonded) as that is about all that I have on hand that is brand new. I ran a few of them through it and I'll consider the gun good to go. I'll base this on how well that load/pistol combo has ran in real shootings here and how well the G45 has done on the range department wide.

If it were 2019 again and I had access to tons of ammo, I'd vet it more.

[feudist]

I like this process from Hilton. I have used it on new magazines and a few ammo types as a confidence check, even though my 2011 is not a bedside/HD weapon.


https://youtu.be/lD9qVwDLpW8

That's the one I referenced above.

In the comments section someone asked if this is good for Glocks. He replied that it didn't really apply to modern pistols so much.

[JAD]

That's the one I referenced above.

In the comments section someone asked if this is good for Glocks. He replied that it didn't really apply to modern pistols so much.

And yet people have used that test to identify and improve problematic Glocks.

Also, how old does the Glock have to get before it’s no longer ‘modern?’ It is just shy of 40.

[HeavyDuty]

Also, how old does the Glock have to get before it’s no longer ‘modern?’ It is just shy of 40.

Ouch. That was rude.

[JAD]

Ouch. That was rude.

I’m damn near fifty and I haven’t been modern since Modern English was a thing.

[DAB]

speaking of old versus modern guns, last year i was at the range with some 22 pistols, and a mess of mixed ammo (some standard velocity, some high velocity). i pulled out my "modern" SW 22A, and it was a jam session. it would fire 3-4 shots, and then you'd pull the trigger and nothing would happen. clear it, try again, same result. different mags, same result (had 5 mags to choose from).

fine. put him back in the range bag and took out my 1952 made Colt Woodsman Match target (only have one magazine). i and others must have fired some 300 rounds thru it, and not a single malfunction. sigh. and this Woodsman isn't even a "pretty" gun, it's a beat up shooter that would not win any beauty prizes.

and another day, took out my 1938 made Colt Woodsman Match Target (yes, i have 2, this is the classic first series one, with elephant ear grips), and ran some 400 rounds thru it: same result, not a single malfunction.

so at least in this small sample, newer was not better.

and recently, I took out my SW 41, and it gave me fits with shells not fully clearing the ejection area before new rounds tried to be seated.

guess the bunnies would rather i take a newer gun out when it is time to chase them away.

[feudist]

And yet people have used that test to identify and improve problematic Glocks.

Also, how old does the Glock have to get before it’s no longer ‘modern?’ It is just shy of 40.

From the context, I inferred he was referring to pistols designed to use the magazine to aim the cartridge at the chamber.

Elaborate about using it on Glocks if you would.

[JAD]

From the context, I inferred he was referring to pistols designed to use the magazine to aim the cartridge at the chamber.

Elaborate about using it on Glocks if you would.

Here's a good post:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24029-Glock-Ejection-Without-Magazine&p=556187&viewfull=1#post556187

[feudist]

Here's a good post:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24029-Glock-Ejection-Without-Magazine&p=556187&viewfull=1#post556187

That was a rabbit hole. 31 pages links to an 18 pager and Tim Lau and Mac's Gauntlet.

Very well though of and experienced instructors taking opposite sides of the issue.

People repeatedly pissed at the marketing slogan "Glock Perfection" People objecting to Glock's aggressive sales methods.(Gold's anyone?)

The Phase 3 NYPD failure was brought up--does anyone know what the fix was to that?

I ordered an HRED and a FRE for grins. I'll test them in my spare 19.

[JAD]

Yup. My takeaways were:
-All pistols suck.
- All pistols should be vetted, and should be sold if they evidence problems beyond easy correction.
- vetted pistols will probably malfunction. Have another plan.

[spence]

I have to look at the boxes, but I bought this at the end of February 2020 so its likely a lot from the end of 2019. To this date, the hottest 9mm standard pressure ammo I've used has been Speer Lawman 115gr. I had actually thought about switching to 115gr Gold Dot and using only Speer ammo, but then the ammodemic hit. I like the idea of a robust 115gr bullet that travels around 1200fps, still penetrates and expands to 1.5x original diameter. I wish Hornady or someone would load the 115gr XTP to 1200fps. That is an underappreciated bullet.

I ran some Lawman 115 in my chronograph adventures in Jan/Feb this year, and it was surprisingly slow compared to other 115's.

I tend to feel that maybe 250 rounds is sufficient to vet the gun, and 50 rounds of carry ammo is typically good. If all I happen to have is a 50 round box, I'll shoot all but enough to load my carry mag plus one or two spares to account for damage.

My current EDC, an LTT Centurion 92, sat around a few months before I switched it over. It had 173 rounds on it before the decision to push it to service. I installed a TJIB in it, ran another 160 rounds of ball ammo through it, then 54 of my carry load. One of the biggest things for me on carry ammo is making sure that it's going to keep same point of impact at a reasonable distance, so making sure it's hitting consistently at 15-25 yards is on the top of my priority list. The LTT was a gun that it took me a while to really get in tune with. I started carrying it after that, but it wasn't until over 1k that I really started feeling fairly good about it, largely in part that the sights on it aren't set in the same place as my M9 or the 92 Compact I used to have are/were.

[Hot Cereal]

I ran some Lawman 115 in my chronograph adventures in Jan/Feb this year, and it was surprisingly slow compared to other 115's.

I am starting to wonder if the QC from Federal, Speer, CCI, etc. has decreased since Vista bought them. When ATK was running the show the ammunition always seemed to exude more consistent performance. Now, it seems performance is different from lot to lot. Obviously I’m just hypothesizing, to prove this would require a fairly extensive testing of various lots of the same product numbers, which aren’t readily available now.

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

I am starting to wonder if the QC from Federal, Speer, CCI, etc. has decreased since Vista bought them. When ATK was running the show the ammunition always seemed to exude more consistent performance. Now, it seems performance is different from lot to lot. Obviously I’m just hypothesizing, to prove this would require a fairly extensive testing of various lots of the same product numbers, which aren’t readily available now.

I have had the opportunity to observe a larger sampling of ammunition in the Federal Champion 45, 230 grain ball. I shoot about 900 rounds per week and have used the Federal Champion for nearly 100k rounds.

Lately there have been inconsistencies where some rounds are fire breathing and more stout and quite a few rounds have the bullet set back too far to function or be safe. Lately Federal Champion has been like a box of chocolates... :)

I am currently using PMC or S&B FMJs and am finding more consistency. However, the S&B are little more smokey and the PMC are far more smokey and stinky.

Fortunately, I had a good supply of Federal Premium HSTs in all calibers before the quality control diminished.

In 9 mm the Federal Champions have seemed a little bit weak, but also the Fiocchis have produced squibs.

[spence]

I am starting to wonder if the QC from Federal, Speer, CCI, etc. has decreased since Vista bought them. When ATK was running the show the ammunition always seemed to exude more consistent performance. Now, it seems performance is different from lot to lot. Obviously I’m just hypothesizing, to prove this would require a fairly extensive testing of various lots of the same product numbers, which aren’t readily available now.

I've seen a bunch of chrono work on YouTube, and while I find value in the efforts of others, I decided that I wanted to run about every load I could get my hands on through the same 4-5 barrels. I could have saved myself some time, the biggest thing I concluded was it's often the maker of the barrel, not the length of it, that really drives velocity. I think that series had 27 FMJ loads in it. I was indeed very curious at some of the results. 9mm Champion chronographed hotter than just about anything at like 1170, but i believe it was more of a fluke because it's not that good now.


I was also surprised just how low the numbers were a couple places.

[Hot Cereal]

In 9 mm the Federal Champions have seemed a little bit weak, but also the Fiocchis have produced squibs.

Funny you say that about Fiocchi. I bought three boxes of 9AP just to see how I liked them and I had a FtFire with one. I concluded the primer was set too deep which resulted in a light strike. Pistol was a Beretta APX.

Thus far the most consistent 9mm ammo I have experienced has been Hornady Critical Duty 135 +P. I’m just not convinced the load is worth it given the mediocre expansion and barrel length pickiness it suffers from. Those bullets seem very velocity dependent, so much so I question why Hornady even sells the standard pressure version. I would find it logistically annoying to be required to use a different load in pistols with sub ~3.7 inch barrels to ensure performance. That said, I would like to try the 124 +P version in both service and subcompact barrels.

[JBP55]

Funny you say that about Fiocchi. I bought three boxes of 9AP just to see how I liked them and I had a FtFire with one. I concluded the primer was set too deep which resulted in a light strike. Pistol was a Beretta APX.

Thus far the most consistent 9mm ammo I have experienced has been Hornady Critical Duty 135 +P. I’m just not convinced the load is worth it given the mediocre expansion and barrel length pickiness it suffers from. Those bullets seem very velocity dependent, so much so I question why Hornady even sells the standard pressure version. I would find it logistically annoying to be required to use a different load in pistols with sub ~3.7 inch barrels to ensure performance. That said, I would like to try the 124 +P version in both service and subcompact barrels.

If you want better expansion try 124gr. HST.

[Hot Cereal]

If you want better expansion try 124gr. HST.

That’s what I use now.

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

... That said, I would like to try the 124 +P version in both service and subcompact barrels.

In 9 mm we use the HST 124 +P. The unscientific testing that we have done with the SubCompact 3" barrel and Ruger LC9 3" barrel has been encouraging. Hydra-Shoks & FMJs were used as control loads.

In the LC9 we use the standard velocity and it does open up very well. With the +P in the SubCompact PX4 it opens even better. We have always had consistent results.

[Hot Cereal]

In 9 mm we use the HST 124 +P. The unscientific testing that we have done with the SubCompact 3" barrel and Ruger LC9 3" barrel has been encouraging. Hydra-Shoks & FMJs were used as control loads.

In the LC9 will use the standard velocity and it does open up very well. With the +P in the SubCompact PX4 it opens even better. We have always had consistent results.

What kind of velocity were you getting from the +P and standard pressure? In the standard pressure I notice negligible difference in velocity between a 3.1in Shield barrel and 3.7in APX barrel (1050fps). When shooting it through a polygonal rifled P2000 barrel the speed increased 30fps to 1080fps. Even a Glock 17.2 barrel barely yielded an average of 1100fps and if I had chosen to shoot 10 instead of 5 rounds I suspect the average would have been 1085-1095fps. The Federal AE9AP also averaged similar numbers, being about 20-30fps slower than the HST in each barrel length. I thought this was a considerable performance decrease. I expect to see 1050fps or so from the short barrel of the Shield, though I was expecting a bit closer to 1075fps. In the Beretta APX/HK P2000 I was expecting results closer to 1100-1125fps, given the load is specified to produce 1150fps from a 4in barrel.

Another factor I can’t overlook- while bullets shot informally into water filled 2L soda bottles did expand, they only penetrated 2 bottles. While this is unscientific and not able to be quantified, in a rudimentary fashion I can compare that to the penetration I received from 165gr HST (.40), which penetrated 3 2L soda bottles, and 135gr +P Critical Duty which penetrates nearly 16inches of informal wet-pack. Before the ammo crunch started I planned to order some more ammo and some clear ballistics gel (I know it isn’t ‘true ballistics gel’, but it’s a consistent medium against which to measure multiple projectiles.) and test them all again.

After my informal testing I assisted a friend with dispatching a troubled ground hog and was quite pleased with the performance the 124 standard pressure HST exhibited. I was not able to recover the bullet. With the results of my informal and unscientific testing I have penetration concerns related to the 124 HST standard pressure. These concerns have not caused me to cease carrying it, more the ammodemic has provided me with little alternative. I prefer the penetration capability of Critical Duty, but do not want the logistical issue of not being able to effectively use that bullet in the Shield or APX/P2000. All my testing of that bullet was from a Glock 17.2.

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

What kind of velocity were you getting from the +P and standard pressure? In the standard pressure I notice negligible difference in velocity between a 3.1in Shield barrel and 3.7in APX barrel (1050fps). When shooting it through a polygonal rifled P2000 barrel the speed increased 30fps to 1080fps. Even a Glock 17.2 barrel barely yielded an average of 1100fps and if I had chosen to shoot 10 instead of 5 rounds I suspect the average would have been 1085-1095fps. The Federal AE9AP also averaged similar numbers, being about 20-30fps slower than the HST in each barrel length. I thought this was a considerable performance decrease. I expect to see 1050fps or so from the short barrel of the Shield, though I was expecting a bit closer to 1075fps. In the Beretta APX/HK P2000 I was expecting results closer to 1100-1125fps, given the load is specified to produce 1150fps from a 4in barrel.

Another factor I can’t overlook- while bullets shot informally into water filled 2L soda bottles did expand, they only penetrated 2 bottles. While this is unscientific and not able to be quantified, in a rudimentary fashion I can compare that to the penetration I received from 165gr HST (.40), which penetrated 3 2L soda bottles, and 135gr +P Critical Duty which penetrates nearly 16inches of informal wet-pack. Before the ammo crunch started I planned to order some more ammo and some clear ballistics gel (I know it isn’t ‘true ballistics gel’, but it’s a consistent medium against which to measure multiple projectiles.) and test them all again.

After my informal testing I assisted a friend with dispatching a troubled ground hog and was quite pleased with the performance the 124 standard pressure HST exhibited. I was not able to recover the bullet. With the results of my informal and unscientific testing I have penetration concerns related to the 124 HST standard pressure. These concerns have not caused me to cease carrying it, more the ammodemic has provided me with little alternative. I prefer the penetration capability of Critical Duty, but do not want the logistical issue of not being able to effectively use that bullet in the Shield or APX/P2000. All my testing of that bullet was from a Glock 17.2.

I do not have a chronograph available. By calculations, if the HST 124 +P starts at 1,200 fps from a 4" barrel, I approximate about 1,150 or a little less from a 3" barrel. Standard velocity loads should be 90% of that, based on definition.

In one test using gallon water jugs it penetrated through two and the bullet stayed in the third.

At the ranch, dispatching livestock for butchering it always gave a one shot termination.

A gunsmith friend of mine uses HST in 45 for hog hunting. He was amazed at how a one shot kill was the normal, which he had not experienced with other 45 loads.

[spence]

Funny you say that about Fiocchi. I bought three boxes of 9AP just to see how I liked them and I had a FtFire with one. I concluded the primer was set too deep which resulted in a light strike. Pistol was a Beretta APX.

Thus far the most consistent 9mm ammo I have experienced has been Hornady Critical Duty 135 +P. I’m just not convinced the load is worth it given the mediocre expansion and barrel length pickiness it suffers from. Those bullets seem very velocity dependent, so much so I question why Hornady even sells the standard pressure version. I would find it logistically annoying to be required to use a different load in pistols with sub ~3.7 inch barrels to ensure performance. That said, I would like to try the 124 +P version in both service and subcompact barrels.

In all the thousands of rounds I've launched from 92's, I've only had one failure to fire due to a light strike, and I'm not blaming the gun or ammo, but on fluke. It was a Magtech round. However, I ran a bunch of Fiocchi for a while, and I had several blown primers with it, I believe. Like three or four of them in a couple thousand rounds.

That said, I don't know that I'd expect to see much difference in velocity from another mfr 3.1" to a Beretta 3.7". In my tests, the 3.3" PX4 compact netted the same or a bit less than the 3" PF9 barrel. I was somewhat disappointed by this. I also shot a 4" XD, 4.3" 92, and 4.9" 92 barrels. The 4.3" Beretta typically chronoed less than the 4" XD, and the 4.9" was pretty on par with the XD. At that time, I had a Wolf threaded 5" Glock barrel, and while it didn't shoot the majority of the test, what I did run through it, it ran 100 fps over the 4.9" Beretta.

If I had a couple hundred rounds to chuck for the hell of it, I've got a bunch of different pistols I did not have at the time. I'd be curious as to how the whole heap compare. The only JHP load I sent across the chronograph was my carry load, 147 gr Ranger Bonded. Box velocity is 995. M9's 4.9" was 988fps, 4.3" compact was 913, IIRC.

I haven't shot any jugs with the stuff yet. I used the Winchester Defend for a while because that was what I could get locally, and it lacked the velocity to get good expansion. It chronoed 850 from the PX4 compact.

[Hot Cereal]

That said, I don't know that I'd expect to see much difference in velocity from another mfr 3.1" to a Beretta 3.7".

True. Barrels all have their own identity. I think my APX has a “slow” barrel. I was more surprised the 124 HST ran as slow as it did from everything than the lack of any performance difference between the two.

[spence]

True. Barrels all have their own identity. I think my APX has a “slow” barrel. I was more surprised the 124 HST ran as slow as it did from everything than the lack of any performance difference between the two.

Someone, I believe it was here on PF, mentioned at one point having slugged Beretta barrels, and they're slightly larger than other manufacturers. At that point, pretty much all I had were Beretta, Springfield, and a couple KelTecs in 9x19. Have since added CZ, S&W, Sig, HK, and multiple lengths on Glock. I would love to chrono through them all just for comparison's sake.

[Actsda]

I was lead investigator on a couple of suicides where a Glock 9mm was used. In both cases, the empty casing remained in the chamber, no stovepipe. In another case involving a semi auto shotgun, empty hull was still in the chamber.

Can't say that I have seen a lot of malf's in guns used in suicides. I have however, seen quite a few in SD cases and OIS-UDF situations/investigations. In fact, we were seeing an inordinate amount of stove pipes, and dropped mags due to clearance efforts in OIS with a specific duty weapon, which, has since been replaced with Glock 45's. Malfunctions experienced while firing a duty weapon under stress, especially in a case where the officer/deputy does no real training/dry-firing outside of qual's, from what I have seen, is a frequent occurrence. This can happen even with well trained tac team guys.

[Actsda]

I was going to add on to this, but then KevH responded ...



With the number of BWC recorded shootings, gunfights that are out there, watching them you'll see a bunch of stoppages occur. Ones that appear as if they would be quite difficult to recreate on the range. I think they happen because of grips that are good enough to get the gun out of the holster and one to a few rounds off but not much more than that. Why? A startled reaction, rather than a planned one - Oh Kitten! That dude just shot at me! versus Let's go detain & arrest that known to be armed bad guy & I'll start by drawing my pistol. As KevH mentioned, that sudden stress can't be easily, if at all, replicated in training.

At one point last year, I saw back to back to back OIS videos with odd stoppages involving just Glocks. Why the frequency of Glocks? The sheer number of them out there? If I thought there was still a real large number of Gen 3 .40SWs out there, I'd add that to my hypothesis.
KevH nailed it. NO way to truly duplicate the stress of life or death situations and split second reactions from all kinds of positions and situations. Train on clearance drills, both hands, one hand, etc.
The body cam videos on the net are a good resource. Was asked recently to present a training segment on "bodycams" so, did some Youtube research and in the many videos I found there was a high incidence of malfunctions seen in OIS. Didn't really surprise me much based on OIS investigations.

[Sammy1]

My duty P229 in 357 Sig had thousands of rounds through it trouble free. I had a stove pipe with it during an extremely violent encounter on duty. Weird things happen in real life.

[Hot Cereal]

I try to train really hard and make my training as realistic as possible and I have experienced a couple really weird malfunctions while doing that.

Glock 22/X300- FtExtract due to gripping the pistol too high and the web of my hand getting sliced too much (Glocks give me awful slide bite) and slowing down the slide velocity. (That’s my hypothesis)

HK P2000 9mm- Was shooting a rapid fire 7 round string and apparently shot faster than an HK was designed to shoot? Ended up with a nasty double feed at round 3 or 4. I think it was due to using aluminum cased ammo but it was still weird. Later I was doing some high intensity high heart rate drills and I had my support hand rolled in tight to the pistol riding the slide lock. I must have been pushing the slide lock lever down or something because the tab that interfaces with the magazine follower, used to push the lever up and lock the slide open, sheared off and worked its way into the recoil spring/dust cover. A couple immediate action drills one after another in a sting of fire, the pistol locked completely up. I had to literally pry the pistol apart. Insane malfunction that would have been catastrophic in a real world incident.

[TheNewbie]

I try to train really hard and make my training as realistic as possible and I have experienced a couple really weird malfunctions while doing that.

Glock 22/X300- FtExtract due to gripping the pistol too high and the web of my hand getting sliced too much (Glocks give me awful slide bite) and slowing down the slide velocity. (That’s my hypothesis)

HK P2000 9mm- Was shooting a rapid fire 7 round string and apparently shot faster than an HK was designed to shoot? Ended up with a nasty double feed at round 3 or 4. I think it was due to using aluminum cased ammo but it was still weird. Later I was doing some high intensity high heart rate drills and I had my support hand rolled in tight to the pistol riding the slide lock. I must have been pushing the slide lock lever down or something because the tab that interfaces with the magazine follower, used to push the lever up and lock the slide open, sheared off and worked its way into the recoil spring/dust cover. A couple immediate action drills one after another in a sting of fire, the pistol locked completely up. I had to literally pry the pistol apart. Insane malfunction that would have been catastrophic in a real world incident.

Years ago I was qualifying with a P2000 in 9mm. Had several feedway malfunctions. Think it was due to my grip, but if I remember correctly, I was shooting faster at that stage.


Are M&Ps less prone to these issues due to the steel inserts?

[Utm]

I have been having failure to feed malfunctions on a g17 gen5. I only have the ftf when I use any ammo besides 115gr ball ammo. I've tried 124 and 147 federal premium hst, speer gold got 124 gr, 124 ball ammo. I've used old mags, new mags, it happens almost every round. Any ideas on what it could be?

[feudist]

Your limpwri-nevermind.

Send that bitch back to Glock with a letter full of ugly threats and cusswords.

Let Glock handle it, stop wasting ammo.

[Utm]

Your limpwri-nevermind.

Send that bitch back to Glock with a letter full of ugly threats and cusswords.

Let Glock handle it, stop wasting ammo.

Don't think that's an option since I got the slide milled and frame stippled. Made the mistake of only running 115gr ball ammo through it before getting the work done to it.

[ST911]

disregard

[JAH 3rd]

I have been having failure to feed malfunctions on a g17 gen5. I only have the ftf when I use any ammo besides 115gr ball ammo. I've tried 124 and 147 federal premium hst, speer gold got 124 gr, 124 ball ammo. I've used old mags, new mags, it happens almost every round. Any ideas on what it could be?

Just a wild guess here. Perhaps the magazine catch is out of spec and not holding the magazine high enough. This may present the round at a less than optimum angle to feed. I say this because EGW makes a magazine catch for 1911s which presents the magazine a bit higher which can solve FTF malfunctions. On 1911s the feed ramp angle may be out of spec causing the FTF. Another thought is replacing the recoil spring assembly. Both these parts together are inexpensive and may be worth a try. Good luck. My g17 gen5 has been flawless from the git-go. Hope your get yours sorted out.

[HeavyDuty]

Don't think that's an option since I got the slide milled and frame stippled. Made the mistake of only running 115gr ball ammo through it before getting the work done to it.

Milled for a RDS or something else? You may have changed enough to bounce it into unreliability. I would try to return as many parts as possible to stock (I assume it has other aftermarket parts?) and start stepping forward.

For that matter, who did the work? Make them fix it.

[Utm]

Update: turned out to be the right screw on my rmr was too long. Milling job was done by jagerwerks

[JAH 3rd]

Glad you found the problem! Hope she runs now!!

[GlorifiedMailman]

I too have noticed a lot of Glock malfunctions during OIS's. For about a year now I've grappled with whether Glocks are too susceptible to stoppages during high stress situations to trust, yet I still carry one because there's not been another pistol I've been able to trust right out of the box. I'm still not sure. It's difficult to tell if any other pistol would do better on such a large scale because nothing else is used in such wide of numbers with bodycam footage in use. It does seem Glocks are more likely to have limp wristing malfunctions than other pistols, going off MAC's testing and my own.

[Actsda]

I too have noticed a lot of Glock malfunctions during OIS's. For about a year now I've grappled with whether Glocks are too susceptible to stoppages during high stress situations to trust, yet I still carry one because there's not been another pistol I've been able to trust right out of the box. I'm still not sure. It's difficult to tell if any other pistol would do better on such a large scale because nothing else is used in such wide of numbers with bodycam footage in use. It does seem Glocks are more likely to have limp wristing malfunctions than other pistols, going off MAC's testing and my own.

I pretty much came to the same conclusion many years ago after experiencing similar issues as the OP but during training and not an actual shooting event, TTL. Like the OP, that was with a gen 2 gun, a G19, that, also like the OP, I put 10's of thousands of Blazer aluminum through(yes, I do remember when it was 84$ a case in the mid-90s). It would go 2-5 thousand rds with no issues then have a stovepipe out of no where or a double feed here and there with both brass and aluminum cased ammo. This would usually happen when shooting at 15 yds or longer, or, tactical training drills when firing rapidly with our training ammo, Speer Lawman and Winchester brass cased. This never happened with the previous off duty carry, a P225, under the same circumstances. The Glock LE reps and FTO's that I discussed this with back then told me that Glocks run best with hot ammo, like NATO spec and +P ammo, to ensure reliable functioning. Ironically, we were issued 147 Black Talons, go figure. The 225 would eat anything including the shitty lead reload practice ammo we used with the P series guns. The Glock polymer frame flexed too much according to one LE rep I spoke with. He suggested that the .40 Glocks were more reliable because of the hotter nature of the round. To their credit, the FTO's wisely emphasized IAD's with stove pipes and double feeds and I just started working on those drills. However, I remember my fear being an injured hand or two during a struggle or shooting and being SOL. When we went to the Glock 23 in the late 90's, I never experienced the same issue. However, those were gen 3 guns. My personally owned G23 gen 3 has also never had those issues, with well over 10K through it, and the same is true for other gen 3 Glocks I've owned, mostly 19's. It appears to me that while the polymer is the same the gen 3 frames are beefier and more rigid in design than the gen 2's. I'm not sure if that was due to incorporating the rail or for some other reason, but that may have alleviated the issue or at least mitigated it to some extent. The plastics used in the MP's, USP's and P320's,(as well as the steel insert used in the MP) all appear to be much more rigid and to possibly provide a better platform for the slide to move against. But, then again I haven't personally had the same issues with gen 3 and gen 4 guns.

[GlorifiedMailman]

I pretty much came to the same conclusion many years ago after experiencing similar issues as the OP but during training and not an actual shooting event, TTL. Like the OP, that was with a gen 2 gun, a G19, that, also like the OP, I put 10's of thousands of Blazer aluminum through(yes, I do remember when it was 84$ a case in the mid-90s). It would go 2-5 thousand rds with no issues then have a stovepipe out of no where or a double feed here and there with both brass and aluminum cased ammo. This would usually happen when shooting at 15 yds or longer, or, tactical training drills when firing rapidly with our training ammo, Speer Lawman and Winchester brass cased. This never happened with the previous off duty carry, a P225, under the same circumstances. The Glock LE reps and FTO's that I discussed this with back then told me that Glocks run best with hot ammo, like NATO spec and +P ammo, to ensure reliable functioning. Ironically, we were issued 147 Black Talons, go figure. The 225 would eat anything including the shitty lead reload practice ammo we used with the P series guns. The Glock polymer frame flexed too much according to one LE rep I spoke with. He suggested that the .40 Glocks were more reliable because of the hotter nature of the round. To their credit, the FTO's wisely emphasized IAD's with stove pipes and double feeds and I just started working on those drills. However, I remember my fear being an injured hand or two during a struggle or shooting and being SOL. When we went to the Glock 23 in the late 90's, I never experienced the same issue. However, those were gen 3 guns. My personally owned G23 gen 3 has also never had those issues, with well over 10K through it, and the same is true for other gen 3 Glocks I've owned, mostly 19's. It appears to me that while the polymer is the same the gen 3 frames are beefier and more rigid in design than the gen 2's. I'm not sure if that was due to incorporating the rail or for some other reason, but that may have alleviated the issue or at least mitigated it to some extent. The plastics used in the MP's, USP's and P320's,(as well as the steel insert used in the MP) all appear to be much more rigid and to possibly provide a better platform for the slide to move against. But, then again I haven't personally had the same issues with gen 3 and gen 4 guns.

I'm curious, do you rule out 9mm Glocks for your own use for defensive/duty purposes because of this? Specifically Gen 3, 4, and 5

[FNFAN]

I too have noticed a lot of Glock malfunctions during OIS's. For about a year now I've grappled with whether Glocks are too susceptible to stoppages during high stress situations to trust, yet I still carry one because there's not been another pistol I've been able to trust right out of the box. I'm still not sure. It's difficult to tell if any other pistol would do better on such a large scale because nothing else is used in such wide of numbers with bodycam footage in use. It does seem Glocks are more likely to have limp wristing malfunctions than other pistols, going off MAC's testing and my own.

I've been very impressed with the Wilson EDC X9 and X9s. I shot up a ball jar full of mixed JHP that I'd sidelined for misc. reasons as well as 2 boxes of new GD 124+ and have about 900 rounds of ball through the X9s without a burp. Very accurate little gun, as is its bigger brother.

[Actsda]

I'm curious, do you rule out 9mm Glocks for your own use for defensive/duty purposes because of this? Specifically Gen 3, 4, and 5
Nope. I wished I could have back then with those gen 2’s, but it was my duty gun. I do carry gen 3 and gen 4 guns both on and off duty by choice but have over the last couple of years been vetting/carrying M&P’s
off duty and may go to them on duty soon. I trust both platforms(brand)

[feudist]

I tried to find a way to contact John Corriea at ASP, but had no luck.

I just asked a question in a comment section in a recent video.I figure if anyone has a handle on this it would be a guy who has watched umpteen thousand gunfight videos.

Maybe one of our heavy hitters(DB, Haggard, Dobbs) could reach out to him?

[willie]

At least a couple posters mentioned carrying weapons that have had many 1000's of rounds fired through them. That to me is not logical. We make assumptions, and one of mine is that high round counts will eventually reduce reliability through wear and rear. I favor vetting a weapon and then using an identical version to practice with.

[willie]

Someone, I believe it was here on PF, mentioned at one point having slugged Beretta barrels, and they're slightly larger than other manufacturers. At that point, pretty much all I had were Beretta, Springfield, and a couple KelTecs in 9x19. Have since added CZ, S&W, Sig, HK, and multiple lengths on Glock. I would love to chrono through them all just for comparison's sake.

My study tells me that if you measure the velocities of different handguns, you will have a list of numbers without meaning. Variation within brands is high. Measuring and then comparing individual specimens would not permit making valid generalizations.

Earlier I was one of the posters who reported variations in 9mm groove diameters. My bore slugging supports this finding as do countless cites in the literature. My unsubstantiated opinion is that we routinely see .357/.358 diameters in 9mm pistol barrels for a reason. The reason is one small attempt to keep pressure within certain limits. The high pressure of this caliber will bump up a .355 jacketed bullet to fill out the larger groove diameter. In the early 1960's Lee Jurassic introduced a line of high velocity 9 mm ammo called Super-Vel. It was high pressure ammo, and he loaded .353/.354 diameter bullets to reduce pressure.

50 years ago I loaded .355 9mm slugs in .357 brass to stupid high pressures and fired them through Ruger Single Actions. I got very high velocity and very inaccurate ammo.