Pump Shotguns and short stroking

[SwampDweller]

I'm reviewing my entire line of defensive firearms, especially in a time where there is a less than ignorable chance that those who seek to make it difficult to continue owning autos of the types they don't like may get their way. I'm well set on pretty much everything semi auto, so I'm having a renewed interest in manually operated firearms, such as revolvers and pump shotguns. Now that that's out of the way, here's my deal.

As a lifelong hunter, I spent years using a pump action shotgun of a few varieties, mostly Remington 870s. There was a point where I ditched the pumps for a semi auto when I found that I have had a few instances where I've short stroked the pump action when excited or not paying deliberate attention. Not very often at all, but enough to where it was annoying in a hunting situation, and could be potentially deadly in a home defense situation.

Yet here I am again, looking at pump shotguns for a defensive long-arm role. I've been seeking the stances of any and all experts (especially class instructors) who can speak to the viability of a pump shotgun for self defense when taking short stroking into account. Yes, it's a user error, but in a chaotic and stressful situation, it's not unimaginable for someone to short stroke. Anecdotally, I've heard from a few people that auto shotguns are more popular than pumps in 3-gun competitions for this very reason. 3-Gun is one competitive sport that I have not participated in, so I can't speak to that.

The Mossberg 590A1 has my eye as far as a pump. What are people's thoughts on the reliability of a pump vs autoloader when short stroking the pump is taken into consideration?

[peterb]

The Mossberg 590A1 has my eye as far as a pump. What are people's thoughts on the reliability of a pump vs autoloader when short stroking the pump is taken into consideration?

The consensus seems to be that modern semi-autos (Beretta 1301, Benelli M2)are more reliable in hard-use, stressful situations. The probability of a mechanical malfunction with a good semi-auto with good ammunition is less than the probability of a human malfunction with a pump.

from a recent thread:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?45129-Shotguns-I-saw-this-week-(I-promise-I-won%92t-do-carbines)
-------------
The reliability question is one of context. In the context of repeating shotguns in the 20th century, the 870 was a godsend. It was dramatically less complicated than older pump guns. Those guns are lovely things, but anyone who has actually broken down a Winchester model 12 will very quickly understand why everybody went out and bought an 870 when they showed up.

The 870 was more "reliable" with a wider range of ammunition than the semi-autos of the day...especially when we factor in lack of maintenance. The semi-autos were typically picky and you had to keep magazine springs and other parts changed out in them for the guns to run reliably. The typical bird hunter does not lovingly clean and polish his shotgun after every use. They take it out for the season, drag it through the muck, shoot it, and then stick it back in the closet when they're done. A pump gun will actually still feed shells with this catastrophic lack of maintenance. A Browning A5, not so much.

The newer generation semi-auto shotguns developed for high volume clay shooting and bird hunting are a different animal. They have chrome lined everything and higher quality parts. It's a reason why they cost 2-3 times what a typical pump gun costs, and with that you get the ability to shoot a whole lot more shells through the guns without serious breakage. Most were still picky about what ammo they would run happily, though.

The 1301 is remarkable precisely because it combines an almost pump-like ability to run a wide variety of ammunition with the high round count durability of the best in modern semi-auto design, and does all of that while being lighter, handier, and softer shooting than most anything else on the market. There's a reason why just about everyone who gives it the Pepsi Challenge ends up purchasing one.

Defensive shotguns are asked to do more volume today, and often with less mechanical sympathy from typically oblivious end users. 100 years ago every person using a pump shotgun had experience maintaining machinery. If one in fifty people who I see in a class have actually changed their own oil at some point I'd be surprised. In the last two classes I've done I've seen multiple 870 shotguns with rust growing on the outside and not a drop of oil evident anywhere on the weapon.

"Oh, you need to oil these?"

"Every firearm involves at least some metal to metal contact. Where there is metal to metal contact you need lubrication. Every metal used in firearms is subject to corrosion. Where there is the possibility of corrosion, you need lubrication to prevent it."

In terms of reliability issues, the major issues I see broken down by brand/model and in order of frequency:

Remington 870:

- Rough chambers. Effects are more pronounced with some types of ammo over others. Can usually be mortared and business can continue.
- Broken ejectors

Mossberg 500/590:

- Rough chambers
- Internal parts seize up. More and more frequently I'm seeing guns come out of the box running really rough and then eventually just completely locking up. Even mortaring does nothing but maybe make it worse. Generally they need a complete rework of all the stamped steel parts (which aren't always manufactured with care)
- Broken or spontaneously activating safeties

Mossberg 930:

- Shells stuck in the chamber (often so stuck that I can't mortar them out, deadlining the gun)
- Shells jumping the shell stops and locking up the action
- To this point I've encountered three 930's that worked. I've seen a lot more than 3 in class, but I've counted three of them that didn't have multiple stoppages in class. Often the stoppages happen, I fix them, and then it locks up so bad that I can't get it running again and have to give them a loaner so I don't soak up too much class time trying to fix their busted gun.

Beretta 1301:

- Shell stop adjustment. Occasionally one will show up that isn't feeding right and it usually needs to visit home base to have the shell stop function adjusted properly. That usually resolves it. At this point I've probably seen as many 1301 shotguns in class as anyone in the country and I can count the number of guns that have needed a trip back to the factory on one hand.

Across the board:

- Fasteners for accessories come loose, often breaking things in the process.
- Ammunition quality on the low end of the spectrum is appalling. Spending a little more on bulk ammo gets a much better product. Rio is still the fucking worst.
- People seem to have a pathological hatred of lubricating their firearms. I've lost count of how many parkerized guns I've seen that have that "ashy" greyish tinge to them that advertises "THE LAST OIL THAT TOUCHED ME WAS CUTTING FLUID FROM A CNC MACHINE"

[Navin Johnson]

I found a great source of information for this exact question at a website called pistol-forum. when I use the search function I came up with multiple threads discussing this topic exactly.

[blues]

I found a great source of information for this exact question at a website called pistol-forum. when I use the search function I came up with multiple threads discussing this topic exactly.

Subtle...:rolleyes:

[Rex G]

As a serious (police duty) user, not an instructor or expert, I never short-stoked a pump gun, until I did, one day, in my fifties. I then experienced several more. I think there was some level of psychological effect, like what I have heard called a “yip.” An aging pumping arm’s (right) shoulder may have played a part, as it only happened when shooting from the left shoulder. I am left-eye dominant, so there is some advantage in sighting, when firing from the left shoulder. Plus, when patrolling alone, which was the norm, being able to work from the left shoulder is an advantage if engaging from the driver’s window or doorway.

I worked with an instructor at the PD range, who recommended a shorter stock, plus, of course, plenty of repetitions. He let me try his 870, with a Magpul stock, which had no spacers. I bought a Magpul stock, and installed it, with no spacers. The problem was, seemingly, solved, except that my long arms and long neck WANT a long stock. I could not consistently get the proper cheek weld, when working at speed.

My solution: Benelli M2, with a Comfort-Tech stock, and with the longest of the several recoil pad options. I had briefly used a superbly-reliable Benelli M1 Super 90, in the Nineties, but its narrow, sharp-combed stock was beating me too much. I had returned to using only pump guns.

I still use my 870P, but it now has no stock, being equipped with a Pachmayr Vindicator grip. Useful at tomahawk range.

I later bought a second Benelli M2, after I retired. I am committed. Others’ needs and best practices may differ.

Nothing wrong with the Beretta 1301, which may well be a better weapon. I am accustomed to the safety button being in a specific location, and do not want to have to re-learn the Beretta 1301’s safety location.

[farscott]

Like others, I have used the 870 since the early 1990s for everything from deer hunting to HD to trap. I never short-stroked one until I did. With the tens of thousands of rounds through my 870s, it should not have happened. Yet it did. Even with the flexitab parts, clearing the jam was slow. That was the beginning of my move to an auto for HD. In my case, I chose the Benelli M1, having had one since 1995. I now have three of them, including one of the last runs sold through Bud's.

I still shoot trap with my 870 Trap gun as I enjoy the challenge of shooting doubles with a pump.

[TCinVA]

Of all manually operated systems, the pump shotgun is the most robust and least prone to failure. (Lever action rifles are a fucking disaster)

When one "short strokes" a pump gun, it's usually because they fail to run the action fully to the rear, preventing another shell from exiting the magazine. The empty usually clears. So this most often results in a click instead of the expected bang. Thankfully fixing that is pretty simple: Run the action until it bottoms out, then run it forward and try the shot again.

The shell stops on pump guns aren't moved out of the way until the very last bit of the forend's movement...at least on a properly functioning pump gun. There are a lot of guns out there that haven't seen proper maintenance and so they're operating with shell stops, magazine springs, and various other internal springs that should have been replaced. The 870 trigger group is pretty easy to work on and it's inexpensive to keep the springs that power everything in it in top working order. But someone has to actually do that maintenance for it to work. When my main teaching gun started to experience odd hiccups in its feeding and function I verified the shell stops were still working properly and then replaced every spring in the trigger group. That did the trick.

Assuming the gun itself is in proper working order, it's still dependent upon the end user to run it. Most people are not accustomed to being as aggressive as they need to be to ensure the pump gun works properly. In every class I show students that the shell from the magazine will only pop on the lifter if they run the forend to the limit of its movement. Bottom it out. I then demonstrate the vigor necessary to run the gun by ejecting a dummy round with sufficient force that it usually hits one of the students standing several feet away. It's more important to run the pump hard, slamming it into the limit of it's movement in both directions, than to do it fast. The desire to make it go fast without having habituated running the action to the limit of its travel is usually the culprit.

Of course, it can be run hard, completely, and fast:

https://www.facebook.com/622964881212762/videos/749105682517372

One of the benefits of getting a shorter stock on the gun is making it possible to deliver more effective force in running the gun. If one's arms are stretched straight on the gun, they can't develop a lot of force when working the action. Making the gun shorter helps people dominate the gun...which is pretty much what you have to do to make it run reliably.

Pump guns assume that you're going to have both hands on the gun to make it run. And that they will both be strong and fully functional.

Given how often people get hit in the arms and hands in actual gunfights (take a look at how many hits to the extremities happened in the Miami Firefight), the idea that one of your arms/hands might not be able to work very hard for you in the effort of running a pump gun in the real thing is valid.

I'm good with a pump gun, but even with my compromised function techniques it's hard for me to run one with only one arm. I can run one empty, and then load it from the side saddle and keep going until I'm out of ammo...but that takes a lot of time and effort.

On the other hand, I can run a 1301 empty much quicker with solid accuracy at home defense distances with only one shoulder working. Either one.

I keep a 1301 as my go-to home defense gun.

[Brazos Dan]

I sprayed the forend of my 870 with Rustoleum No-slip. It is totally invisible and imparts a sandpaper-like texture. Makes a big difference in reducing any chance of shortstroke.

My buttstock is one of the adjustable tactical-style stocks with a pistol grip. I set it on the shortest adjustment. This also helps prevent shortrokes and prevents the butt from catching on my shirt or pocket when shouldering the gun.

[paherne]

BOOM! Chunk-Chunk

It's a lifestyle.

[nraforlife]

BIG BIG fan of the Beretta 1301. It IS my home defense firearm.

[willie]

Comments refer to a 12 gauge 870. I will describe a malfunction that some experience. Bang, pump, click. This may not have been a short stroke. If not, this happened. Upon firing, recoil forced the shooters "pump hand" backwards a couple inches. This movement activated the forward shell latch to the position where it's role is retaining the next shell to be fed. Now, the shell in place to be fed into the action jumps forward past the forward shell latch. It is held in this position when the action is moved to the rear. Thus, there is not a shell to be fed. When the action is closed, we have an empty chamber. Click.

We talk about loading the 870 to a ready position by retracting the slide slightly and then pushing the shell past the forward shell latch. Then we retract the slide fully to the rear. Said shell continues to be held by the forward shell latch.This same thing occurs in the above example.

Two simple procedures will prevent this malfunction. One is consciously maintaining forward pressure on the fore end. Placing the pump hand on the rear portion of the slide helps maintain pressure. Visualize the angle formed by forearm and upper arm in this case.

The other procedure accomplishes this forward pressure without consciously pushing forward. Place the pump hand forefinger along the side the pump handle. This position will retard slide movement upon firing. Then we do not have this malfunction.

I have owned at least 30 870's and had the privilege of learning from factory trained armorers. There is no finer pump shotgun. However, Mossbergs don't have this defect. For this reason, I recommend the 500 series pumps.

I can demonstrate the above malfunction on demand. I can not demonstrate true short stroking. I do not deny that it exists, but if you tell me you short stroked your 12 gauge 870, I will doubt that.

In the above example, I said that the shell jumped forward upon firing. What happened was that recoil moved the gun backwards. The magazine tube moved past the shell. Increasing spring strength does not prevent this.
.

[Pistol Pete 10]

I've been shooting pump guns since 1968, hunting, skeet and trap. i stopped shooting skeet with the pump because of short stroking. It happens, when it does it's a lost bird due to operator error. I don't use a shotgun for self defense, if I did it might be a double barrel.
My 2 cents....................

[DDTSGM]

We talk about loading the 870 to a ready position by retracting the slide slightly and then pushing the shell past the forward shell latch. Then we retract the slide fully to the rear. Said shell continues to be held by the forward shell latch.This same thing occurs in the above example.

Two simple procedures will prevent this malfunction. One is consciously maintaining forward pressure on the fore end. Placing the pump hand on the rear portion of the slide helps maintain pressure. Visualize the angle formed by forearm and upper arm in this case.

The other procedure accomplishes this forward pressure without consciously pushing forward. Place the pump hand forefinger along the side the pump handle. This position will retard slide movement upon firing. Then we do not have this malfunction.

When firing the shotgun many folks are taught to pull the shotgun firmly into the shoulder, not a bad idea :o unless they pull back with the support/pump hand.

In the 870's this wedges the rear of the left action bar against the action lock. When the shotgun is fired, the shooter then has to release pressure to allow the action to unlock. Usually what happens is they pull back, find the action locked, kind of double-clutch, and end up not fully cycling the action.

Mossberg's have a different set up, so don't have that problem.

[Edster]

One of the side benefits I've found from adopting push/pull technique with an 870 is it encourages running the pump aggressively. It goes naturally from "stretch the gun" to "compress the gun".

I agree with all criticisms of pump gun and two-handed operation versus an autoloader, though.

[SwampDweller]

I have a Winchester Super X3 I use for hunting, but it's hardly suitable for defensive long gun use. It's also disappointingly unreliable, even with full power loads. I suppose it comes down to a 5-shot Benelli M4 or a Beretta 1301 of sorts. The M4 has an excellent pedigree and government reliability testing results showing two malfunctions in 30k rounds, according to Benelli's website talking about the XM1014 trails, which had to be translated from Italian. I'm looking into the Beretta 1301 right now to see if there is a similarly impressive track record.

[Lex Luthier]

I am helping a newbie neighbor with her "new" shotgun- it's her late Grandpa's 1962 Winchester Model 12 field grade 12 gauge.
After taking it down, cleaning out a bunch of cack, lubing it for the first time in probably 40 years, and function-testing it with snap-caps, I showed her the push-pull technique, which she will try tomorrow for the first time.
I have to admit, it was very easy to short stroke this particular action due to the fact that it needs the fore-end to be pulled forward hard to get it into battery. (The crappy plastic Pachmayr snap caps do not help, nor the almost certain layer of varnish built up on the bearing surfaces.)
We will shoot it tomorrow so she can get an idea of what she wants to do with it, but she is quite mindful of what it will take to run the gun, so far. She liked the idea of working the slide like one is trying to break it.
I've already put the phrase, "Next shotgun: Semi-auto, Italian, starts with a B" in her head...

[Duelist]

My favorite pump is an early 50s Ithaca 37 Featherlight Skeet, 12g. Grandpa had one in 16g - it got stolen from the cousin who ended up with all 3 of grandad’s guns. He had a little browning .22 semiauto, the cute little one with the magazine tube in the butt, and a sporterized 1903. Might have been an A3.

I got mine a couple of years ago. Killed the last birds my first Brittany was here for with it. Shot quite a bit of trap, and some skeet with it. That slick action just seems to run itself. I’ve missed a shot on a dove and hit it with the second before I realized I’d run the action.

I got a little 20g 870 Express youth, and it seems to work fine, but I haven’t shot it very much really. A couple hundred rounds.