Sub $1K AR's,.. a waste of money or a bargain?

[Chomps]

I don't know what it is about putting little holes in paper with gunpowder and projectiles,… But apparently it's addicting! LOL

I've been thinking about getting a rifle, AR type. But once again being a total noob, I have no idea if Buying something like this rifle from the shop where I purchased my Glock. (picture posted). I don't know enough to tell if thats a decent price for a decent rifle or if Im just asking for yet another expensive "Hellcat" type lesson in firearm purchasing.

Appreciate any advice or opinions before I consider blowing another grand or so. :O.

(...btw, I am TOTALLY ignorant of and confused by, a great many of the Acronyms and Alphabet Soup abbreviations you guys use regularly in these posts,.. so please keep that in mind. 😂)
Thanks!


62431! 😂🤷*♂️

[BehindBlueI's]

There's a metric shit ton of threads on this already and a great amount of experience and knowledge to be gained by searching.

That said, without knowing anything about what you actually want to do with the gun, the M&P Sport II will do everything damn near every AR shooter will ask it to do and will not be what holds their shooting back. The prices are currently inflated, but nobody has a crystal ball on when/if pricing returns to normal, but not terribly long ago that was a $500-$550 pretty easily. But today is not yesterday.

[critter]

I don't own one of these, but several shooting buddies do. The M&P seems a solid rifle to me. All of the ones I've shot have done exactly what they were supposed to do when they were supposed to do it. They definitely like 'em. I think you may be able to get one a little cheaper, but keeping your local shop in business is worth doing as well.

The only AR I can personally recommend is BCM, just because it's the only one with which I have extensive ownership and shooting experience.

[Chomps]

There's a metric shit ton of threads on this already and a great amount of experience and knowledge to be gained by searching.

That said, without knowing anything about what you actually want to do with the gun, the M&P Sport II will do everything damn near every AR shooter will ask it to do and will not be what holds their shooting back. The prices are currently inflated, but nobody has a crystal ball on when/if pricing returns to normal, but not terribly long ago that was a $500-$550 pretty easily. But today is not yesterday.

Yup! I agree and I'm aware of the search function. I'm not looking to be that lazy, annoying noob that wants errbody else to do his grunt work,...

I've actually done some searching on this & other topics. Here and on gge interwebz. I readily admit, my "Google-Fu" is weak to begin with but also I keep bumping up against all the unfamiliar Abbreviations, jargon, tech-speak, etc. Which not only makes it challenging to decipher some of the advice & recommendations being offered, but also limits my success in attempting a search!

That said,.. In considering an AR Im thinking of 2 maybe 3 different objectives,..

First, as I mentioned. Im discovering its really satisfying and FUN to put tight(ish) 😂 groups of holes in paper with gunpowder & projectiles! :)

Second,.. personal and home defense should shit start to SERIOUSLY go sideways in the next few months.

2-1/2 or Third: Depending in the outcome of the election, some are predicting that Gun prices might just go freakin ASTRONOMICAL afterwards.

If Im going to purchase anyway, I'd like to buy before they go any higher,.. already spent considerabley more for the handguns & ammo than I would have pre pandemic panic.

BehindBlueI's, thanks for the information on that particular weapon. I appreciate it. I looked at quite a few online reviews of the Hellcat before I purchased. Didn't come across any of the issues I've since heard of concerning Springfield and that weapon until I started searching for the specific issues I read about here! So naturally, I was concerned especially since a VAST majority of the other AR type weapons they have in the shop are all several thousands of dollars. Not a lot in the $700-$800 range. So I worried that maybe the M&P was maybe a bargain basement rifle. It's good to know that isn't the case.

Anyway,.. thanks again for the heads up. I'll do some more research/reading for that specific rifle.

[HCM]

Yup! I agree and I'm aware of the search function. I'm not looking to be that lazy, annoying noob that wants errbody else to do his grunt work,...

I've actually done some searching on this & other topics. Here and on gge interwebz. I readily admit, my "Google-Fu" is weak to begin with but also I keep bumping up against all the unfamiliar Abbreviations, jargon, tech-speak, etc. Which not only makes it challenging to decipher some of the advice & recommendations being offered, but also limits my success in attempting a search!

That said,.. In considering an AR Im thinking of 2 maybe 3 different objectives,..

First, as I mentioned. Im discovering its FUN to put tight(ish) 😂 groups of holes in paper with gunpowder & projectiles! :)

Second,.. personal and home defense should shit SERIOUSLY go sideways in the next few months.

2-1/2 or Third: Depending in the outcome of the election, some are predicting that Gun prices might just go freakin ASTRONOMICAL afterwards.

If Im going to purchase anyway, I'd like to buy before they go any higher,.. already spent considerabley more for the handguns & ammo than I would have pre pandemic panic.

BehindBlueI's, thanks for the information on that particular weapon. I appreciate it. I looked at quite a few online reviews of the Hellcat before I purchased. Didn't come across any of the issues I've sunce heard of concerning Springfield and tgat weapon until I started searching for the specific issues I read here! So naturally, I was concerned because a VAST majority of the other AR type weapons they have in the shop are several thousands of dollars. Not in the $700-$800 range. So I worried that the M&P was maybe a bargain basement rifle. It's good to know that isn't the case.

Anyway,.. thanks again for the heads up. I'll do some more research/reading for that specific rifle.

The M&P Sport II is a budget AR but it is, IMHO the best of the "budget" ARs. As BBI said this time last year this was a $500 rifle but it is 2020 so $799 is the current rate.

A work/duty grade AR such as a colt or basic BCM, Sons of Liberty Gun Works (SOLGW) is currently running $1200 to $1500 in the current market. Most higher grade ARs are running $1800 to $2400.

Since you aren't using this for duty, and the current market is inflated, I will say I would rather have a fully equipped M&P Sport II than a higher grade gun and no money for enablers, accessories, mags or ammo.

For the same $$ I would buy the standard M&P Sport II with the A frame front sight rather than the "OR" (Optics Ready) version.

For the uses you mentioned I would want the following for the rifle:

Enablers: An optic (red dot sight) and a light. - why ? Irons are workable when you have young eyes with 20/20 vision but optics are faster and red dots optics in particular are also effective in low light. A long gun used for home or personal defense needs a white light. no exceptions. Many bad things happen in low light and you have an absolute responsibility to positively ID your target.

accessories:

A quick adjust 2 point sling. This is the holster for your rifle. There are many brands most are good. Viking tactics, Blue force gear and magpul are three of the most common.

Magazines: AR magazines are, and were designed to be, consumable, disposable items. They are normally made of aluminum or polymer. You use them till they have problems then throw them away. While you may only use 4 or 6 at any one time, given the potential for mags to be banned you want a lifetime supply. I would want at least 10 to 12 mags, 20 or 30 would be better. Magpul and aluminum GI mags with magpul followers are my choices. Lancer, Troy and Tango Down ARC mags are also acceptable. For GI mags, OK/Surefeed are my first choice, Brownells brand second. The D&H mags also sold as BCM and PSA brand are OK too.

Good luck finding ammo.

[Ed L]

The M&P Sport II is a budget AR but it is, IMHO the best of the "budget" ARs. As BBI said this time last year this was a $500 rifle but it is 2020 so $799 is the current rate.

A work/duty grade AR such as a colt or basic BCM, Sons of Liberty Gun Works (SOLGW) is currently running $1200 to $1500 in the current market. Most higher grade ARs are running $1800 to $2400.

Since you aren't using this for duty, and the current market is inflated, I will say I would rather have a fully equipped M&P Sport II than a higher grade gun and no money for enablers, accessories, mags or ammo.

For the same $$ I would buy the standard M&P Sport II with the A frame front sight rather than the "OR" (Optics Ready) version.

I agree with everything HCM wrote. I would try to buy the version that has the A Frame front sight that HCM suggested because it is more ready to go. Here is the version HCM suggested if you can find it: https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-sport-ii

If all you can find is the version that you listed that doesn't come with sights, I would buy that and then get some aftermarket front and rear sights if you can't get a red dot optic immediately.

The gun, ammo, and some magazines are your first priority, with the gun being primary since guns have the potential to be most scarce and harder to get later. And if you don't have the gun you don't have anything.

Then buy ammo which is right now harder to find than the gun, and magazines which seem to be available at the moment.

[Jager]

I own Colt, Daniel Defense, and LaRue AR platforms.... marques usually considered premium. I also own an older version of the M&P 15 you're considering. I think the S&W is a fine weapon and I agree with the comment that it is among the top of the "budget" AR guns. My only caution would be your accuracy expectation. AR's can certainly be accurate, but generally are not going to approach what you typically see in the bolt gun world. Exceptions abound (my LaRue is a sub-MOA rifle), but the trend is the trend.

And mind Ed's comment about ammo, magazines, and sights. You'll want the first two in as much abundance as you can manage. And you can never have too good an optic.

[Joe in PNG]

If you buy it from a gunshop, they may have reserved ammo for gun buyers- check with the clerk.

This may be your best bet at the moment, so go for it if that's what you want.

[TGS]

This can be kind of a hard question right now because of availability. Usually we'd say, "Go buy a BCM, Colt, SOLGW, Daniel Defense, etc...." but that's not really good advice since you can't readily buy any of those right now with any choice in a decent choice of varieties....and if you do find whatever specific one you're looking for, you're going to pay a premium markup.

If you want to keep the decision simple and buy something readily available for under $1k that will generally do you well, I'd get this: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle-w-mbus-sight-set3.html

I would not get the M&P, honestly. They have absurdly heavy barrels for standard carbine use. While falling short of "duty-grade" in a few harder to notice but key points (one of which can be easily rectified for $80 with the purchase of a BCM bolt head), the one I linked to is equal or better to the M&P in virtually every category. The Gov't profile barrel isn't a nice lightweight profile but it's at least noticeably lighter than the M&P Sport....the rail system will allow you to experiment with different placements for grips, lights, etc and is lightweight. The mid-length gas system will shoot softer and the bolt will have a longer life than a carbine gas system........and while subjective, the furniture is much nicer than what the M&P Sport is wearing. Again, that's subjective, but I despise the A2 grip.

To me, that's a no brainer decision if I were limiting my choices to in-stock complete rifles for under $1000. If you wanted to mix-and-match uppers and lowers and look at building something, you could do better.....but honestly I don't see that being a good route for you to pursue at your current knowledge level. My recommendation is to start with the one I linked to, start shooting and learning, and go from there.

Have fun, enjoy. :)

[MGW]

I bought a new mid length M&P MOE a few years ago that has been a great rifle. It was well under $1k at the time. I seem to remember Chuck Haggard using an M&P sport, I believe the original model, and giving it a thumbs up.

If you just want a rifle to beat on I think it’ll be fine. You can always put together another rifle later when prices drop again.

[Rex G]

I was just able to order two ten-packs of Magpul 20-round mags from Brownells. Via the affiliate link, located in the orange-colored bar at the top of this page, of course.

Yes, I do like Twenties. With Texas “brush country” in one direction, The Piney Woods in another directions, and the Big Thicket in another direction, Twenties rule.

[19852+]

I don't know what your AO is like but in mine all types of firearms are available. Many brands of AR are displayed in my LGS. My first choice is Colt due to it's military origins but there are other brands out there that are just as good.
My best advice is buy basic quality right from the start, whatever you get can later be modified to your taste. But at least the "bones" are good. Look at optics as your first accessory.

[ranger]

I suggest that biggest driver to "AR" accuracy and reliability is ammo. I am a very active reloader and just loaded some "pulled" 55 FMJ M193 projectiles over WC844 in mixed cases - that provided about 3MOA groups at 100 yards through a 20 inch target AR. Same AR shoots sub moa with higher quality projectiles, "better" powder in mixed cases.

[HeavyDuty]

That’s a decent price IMO, and I like Brownells and the affiliate link. Done.

[Clusterfrack]

This can be kind of a hard question right now because of availability. Usually we'd say, "Go buy a BCM, Colt, SOLGW, Daniel Defense, etc...." but that's not really good advice since you can't readily buy any of those right now with any choice in a decent choice of varieties....and if you do find whatever specific one you're looking for, you're going to pay a premium markup.

If you want to keep the decision simple and buy something readily available for under $1k that will generally do you well, I'd get this: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle-w-mbus-sight-set3.html

I would not get the M&P, honestly. They have absurdly heavy barrels for standard carbine use. While falling short of "duty-grade" in a few harder to notice but key points (one of which can be easily rectified for $80 with the purchase of a BCM bolt head), the one I linked to is equal or better to the M&P in virtually every category. The Gov't profile barrel isn't a nice lightweight profile but it's at least noticeably lighter than the M&P Sport....the rail system will allow you to experiment with different placements for grips, lights, etc and is lightweight. The mid-length gas system will shoot softer and the bolt will have a longer life than a carbine gas system........and while subjective, the furniture is much nicer than what the M&P Sport is wearing. Again, that's subjective, but I despise the A2 grip.

To me, that's a no brainer decision if I were limiting my choices to in-stock complete rifles for under $1000. If you wanted to mix-and-match uppers and lowers and look at building something, you could do better.....but honestly I don't see that being a good route for you to pursue at your current knowledge level. My recommendation is to start with the one I linked to, start shooting and learning, and go from there.

Have fun, enjoy. :)

I was just going to respond and then I read this from our friend TGS.

[EricM]

I agree with everything HCM wrote. I would try to buy the version that has the A Frame front sight that HCM suggested because it is more ready to go. Here is the version HCM suggested if you can find it: https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-sport-ii

If all you can find is the version that you listed that doesn't come with sights, I would buy that and then get some aftermarket front and rear sights if you can't get a red dot optic immediately.

My understanding is the SKU the OP posted includes the Crimson Trace 4 MOA red/green dot shown in his pic (link (https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-sport-ii-or-magpul-moe-m-lok-carbine-length-handguard)). So if price, local availability, and being ready to go out of the box are the primary considerations, I might lean that way vs. the one with a fixed front sight and spending an extra $150 or so on an optic. I'd think the MOE handguard would be a little easier to mount a light to as well.

No doubt the configuration TGS linked to is much more modern and flexible, and you can always keep an eye out for good red dot deals when Black Friday rolls around. How's the customer service from PSA in case of an issue? Generally heard good things about S&W in that department but haven't dealt with either myself.

[HeavyDuty]

I’m one of the few who isn’t impressed with what I have purchased from PSA, and I haven’t bought just bottom dollar items. I trust them for limited specific components, but I think a complete rifle not so much. I rank them right “up” there with Spike’s.

If I were looking for a built up budget AR, I would be comfortable with a S&W plus a good inspection and maybe a few minor part changes.

[HCM]

I agree with everything HCM wrote. I would try to buy the version that has the A Frame front sight that HCM suggested because it is more ready to go. Here is the version HCM suggested if you can find it: https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-sport-ii

If all you can find is the version that you listed that doesn't come with sights, I would buy that and then get some aftermarket front and rear sights if you can't get a red dot optic immediately.

The gun, ammo, and some magazines are your first priority, with the gun being primary since guns have the potential to be most scarce and harder to get later. And if you don't have the gun you don't have anything.

Then buy ammo which is right now harder to find than the gun, and magazines which seem to be available at the moment.

I would actually prioritize mags since they are not subject to panic buying yet. If Biden wins that may well change

[blues]

I was just able to order two ten-packs of Magpul 20-round mags from Brownells. Via the affiliate link, located in the orange-colored bar at the top of this page, of course.

Yes, I do like Twenties. With Texas “brush country” in one direction, The Piney Woods in another directions, and the Big Thicket in another direction, Twenties rule.

Thanks, Rex G, for reminding me to pick up a handful. I normally keep 30 rounders as my mainstay and picked up some 10 rounders a couple years back out of concern for the direction we were are heading, but had failed to purchase any 20 rounders. At least now I'll have a few to keep on hand.

[Rick R]

I love shooting AR shaped rifles and pistols, in fact I had two at the range today getting some group therapy in. However if at this point in time you don’t have a deep stock of ammo, magazines and little to no training with Mr. Stoners creation I’d advise holding off.

The way I see it one of two things is going to happen:

1) Donald Trump wins and the gun stores, pawn shops and ad bulletins will be full of guns at 50% of what they sold for in 2020 (kinda like what happened after 2016).

2) Kamela’s sugar daddy wins and we get to trade our semiauto anything for $200 in stock in wind farms

Either way you’re going to be sad that you bought at the current pricing.

Of course Curtain #3 has Civil War II behind it and hopefully you don’t end up behind enemy lines in an ANTIFA re-education camp.

If your goal is to shoot groups of holes into paper pick up a decent bolt gun with scope and learn to shoot it until the above is resolved.

[HCM]

This can be kind of a hard question right now because of availability. Usually we'd say, "Go buy a BCM, Colt, SOLGW, Daniel Defense, etc...." but that's not really good advice since you can't readily buy any of those right now with any choice in a decent choice of varieties....and if you do find whatever specific one you're looking for, you're going to pay a premium markup.

If you want to keep the decision simple and buy something readily available for under $1k that will generally do you well, I'd get this: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-16-mid-length-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-13-5-lightweight-m-lok-moe-ept-rifle-w-mbus-sight-set3.html

I would not get the M&P, honestly. They have absurdly heavy barrels for standard carbine use. While falling short of "duty-grade" in a few harder to notice but key points (one of which can be easily rectified for $80 with the purchase of a BCM bolt head), the one I linked to is equal or better to the M&P in virtually every category. The Gov't profile barrel isn't a nice lightweight profile but it's at least noticeably lighter than the M&P Sport....the rail system will allow you to experiment with different placements for grips, lights, etc and is lightweight. The mid-length gas system will shoot softer and the bolt will have a longer life than a carbine gas system........and while subjective, the furniture is much nicer than what the M&P Sport is wearing. Again, that's subjective, but I despise the A2 grip.

To me, that's a no brainer decision if I were limiting my choices to in-stock complete rifles for under $1000. If you wanted to mix-and-match uppers and lowers and look at building something, you could do better.....but honestly I don't see that being a good route for you to pursue at your current knowledge level. My recommendation is to start with the one I linked to, start shooting and learning, and go from there.

Have fun, enjoy. :)

Two issues:

The PSA you linked is out of stock and with PSA that could be a week or it could be a year, or they could never offer that combo again. It's random.

Which brings me to the other issue with PSA: the quality is like the proverbial box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get. might be good, might be ok, might not. That's ok for someone who knows AR's to roll the dice on but like mixing uppers and lowers, not ideal for someone new to the game.

The S&W Sport II is what it is, but it is a known quantity with a reliable warranty behind it.

as for the barrel profile:


https://youtu.be/lX0MB7pJtKs

[TGS]

The PSA you linked is out of stock...

Well that goes to show the availability issues right now, because the reason I linked to it is because it was in-stock...

[Wise_A]

If your goal is to shoot groups of holes into paper pick up a decent bolt gun with scope and learn to shoot it until the above is resolved.

Bingo. And to be honest, I would have a very hard time recommending a new shooter get into centerfire bolt guns at the moment. Especially given what I understand of OP's ammo-buying habits. I think it would be an exercise in frustration.

Get either a 10/22 (and only if you can find one reasonably-priced, i.e.--not $400), or a CZ 457. The CZ is definitely worth spending more. I've also heard nice things about the Tikka T1X. Get a decent low-power scope (I would figure on $300 as a minimum), and for the love of all that's good and holy, buy your ammunition in at least brick quantities for the bolt guns. That's 10 boxes (500 rounds) sold packaged in a larger box. This way, you know you're getting all the ammunition from the same lot. If you're buying it a box here and a box there, you're going to waste a bunch of time and ammunition re-zeroing.

If you buy some Bucket o' Bullets, you will get miserable reliable and accuracy, and disgrace your Tikka or CZ. Look for CCI Standard, Aguila Super Extra, etc, at a minimum. Some guys will spend a lot more on .22 ammo.

I think buying an AR right now only makes sense if you think there's going to be some AWB-esque legislation with a grandfather clause. Personally, I would say it's really dumb to buy a Smith and Wesson M&P 15 for $200 less than what a complete Bravo Company rifle costs under normal circumstances. If you absolutely had to buy one, there are deals popping up all the time for somewhat better rifles for the same price.

[BehindBlueI's]

Well that goes to show the availability issues right now, because the reason I linked to it is because it was in-stock...

Their basic is in stock @ $549: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-pa-15-16-carbine-length-5-56-nato-1-7-phos-m4-classic-rifle-black.html

I'm just a bit hesitant to recommend PSA to someone who's new to ARs and doesn't have someone who can do a good inspection on it or deal with any little issues on their own. I own a PSA that was went through by our armorer and have used it as a training gun with zero issue, so I'm certainly not anti-PSA. I just think the Sport II is a better odds first gun that'll do what pretty much anyone wants to do with an AR.

[HCM]

Their basic is in stock @ $549: https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-pa-15-16-carbine-length-5-56-nato-1-7-phos-m4-classic-rifle-black.html

I'm just a bit hesitant to recommend PSA to someone who's new to ARs and doesn't have someone who can do a good inspection on it or deal with any little issues on their own. I own a PSA that was went through by our armorer and have used it as a training gun with zero issue, so I'm certainly not anti-PSA. I just think the Sport II is a better odds first gun that'll do what pretty much anyone wants to do with an AR.

The only PSA I currently own is a .22 upper but as the armorer who has gone through a bunch of these guns for co-workers I agree.

[HCM]

Bingo. And to be honest, I would have a very hard time recommending a new shooter get into centerfire bolt guns at the moment. Especially given what I understand of OP's ammo-buying habits. I think it would be an exercise in frustration.

Get either a 10/22 (and only if you can find one reasonably-priced, i.e.--not $400), or a CZ 457. The CZ is definitely worth spending more. I've also heard nice things about the Tikka T1X. Get a decent low-power scope (I would figure on $300 as a minimum), and for the love of all that's good and holy, buy your ammunition in at least brick quantities for the bolt guns. That's 10 boxes (500 rounds) sold packaged in a larger box. This way, you know you're getting all the ammunition from the same lot. If you're buying it a box here and a box there, you're going to waste a bunch of time and ammunition re-zeroing.

If you buy some Bucket o' Bullets, you will get miserable reliable and accuracy, and disgrace your Tikka or CZ. Look for CCI Standard, Aguila Super Extra, etc, at a minimum. Some guys will spend a lot more on .22 ammo.

I think buying an AR right now only makes sense if you think there's going to be some AWB-esque legislation with a grandfather clause. Personally, I would say it's really dumb to buy a Smith and Wesson M&P 15 for $200 less than what a complete Bravo Company rifle costs under normal circumstances. If you absolutely had to buy one, there are deals popping up all the time for somewhat better rifles for the same price.

Given the OP wants an AR why not a S&W M&P 15-22 ?

[idahojess]

I bought my first AR, a Rock River, in 2008, before the election. It was more expensive (and probably heavier) than that Smith, but probably not a better gun, and I still have it, with others, including a Colt.

If I recall correctly, Smith and Wesson and Ruger and others were not selling AR's at that point. (Colt was, obviously, and yeah, that's what I should have bought in 2008, but...).

I remember after the 2008 election AR's couldn't be found, and peg board being all that was on the walls at shops. Similar events occurred in 2013.

There have been deals on ARs in in past years, as supply outpaced demand, but that price on that Smith doesn't seem unreasonable to me given the way prices go up and down. It is probably right around MSRP, and it isn't a gouge.

Even if you're not shooting super tight groups at 100 yards, I think AR's are still fun to shoot, easy to run, relatively accurate and have other obvious benefits. I've got one good hand, and so long as I've got a loaded magazine, I can shoot my AR.

Make sure you get a safe -- even something like a stack-on.

[HCM]

I bought my first AR, a Rock River, in 2008, before the election. It was more expensive (and probably heavier) than that Smith, but probably not a better gun, and I still have it, with others, including a Colt.

If I recall correctly, Smith and Wesson and Ruger and others were not selling AR's at that point. (Colt was, obviously, and yeah, that's what I should have bought in 2008, but...).

I remember after the 2008 election AR's couldn't be found, and peg board being all that was on the walls at shops. Similar events occurred in 2013.

There have been deals on ARs in in past years, as supply outpaced demand, but that price on that Smith doesn't seem unreasonable to me given the way prices go up and down. It is probably right around MSRP, and it isn't a gouge.

Even if you're not shooting super tight groups at 100 yards, I think AR's are still fun to shoot, easy to run, relatively accurate and have other obvious benefits. I've got one good hand, and so long as I've got a loaded magazine, I can shoot my AR.

Make sure you get a safe -- even something like a stack-on.

S&W started selling the M&P ARs in 2006 or 2007. I got mine in 2007. The Sports did not come till later.

Colt's were very hard to come by in 2006/07/08 due to production for the Iraq war. If you could find one a 6920 was usually $1500 or more. It's actually what lead me to LMT at the time.

[5pins]

I'm not a PSA hater either but their customer service is less than stellar. S&W on the other hand has been fantastic IMO. I would spend the extra money and get the M&P.

[Wise_A]

Given the OP wants an AR why not a S&W M&P 15-22 ?

Because I live where I do and they honestly just don't even occur to me as viable options, but yeah. They're pretty cheap, I think I've even seen them down in just-above-the-10/22 territory. If they were inflated up to T1X or 457 pricing, I do think that there are a lot more interesting things to do with those bolt-actions than the 15-22. But I'm a bolt-action shooter, so I'm biased anyway.

[ranger]

My "best" AR is a S&W - a Gen 1 M&P VTAC. Most of my ARs are "frankengun" that I build for target with non standard calibers - 224V, 6.5 Grendel plus a 6.8 for short range hunting. I have three PSA uppers - two 5.56 and one 300 BO - the PSA uppers work just fine for the hundreds of rounds through them at the square range. The PSA upper'd 300 BO pistol is a product of the long PDW thread. I carried Colt MIL issue for decades (M16A1 through M4) - if I went into harms way a Colt AR would be very nice. However, out of the several million ARs in the wild, how many will see a thousand rounds down the barrel? How many will see a few hundred rounds down the barrel? How many will be used in the heat of some form of battle? If you can afford (and can find) a boutique AR by all means get one. If all you can justifiably afford (or find) by all means get the S&W or even PSA.

[Wake27]

The market really hasn’t been hit that bad as far as pricing goes, just availability. If I were you and had the money, I’d probably buy the S&W and then watch online stores and forums for a better upper. Then sell the upper that came with that gun to make a little money back. But better really means more modular, lighter and more ergonomic, probably better gassed, and maybe a little more accurate. It’s rare that I actually here about M&Ps not running reliably, even if I wouldn’t buy one.

If you’re patient, the good stuff is still out there at normal pricing. I bought a KAC 11.5 upper a few weeks ago for the same pricing they’ve been for over a year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rd62]

The market really hasn’t been hit that bad as far as pricing goes, just availability. If I were you and had the money, I’d probably buy the S&W and then watch online stores and forums for a better upper. Then sell the upper that came with that gun to make a little money back. But better really means more modular, lighter and more ergonomic, probably better gassed, and maybe a little more accurate. It’s rare that I actually here about M&Ps not running reliably, even if I wouldn’t buy one.

If you’re patient, the good stuff is still out there at normal pricing. I bought a KAC 11.5 upper a few weeks ago for the same pricing they’ve been for over a year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Do you want two ARs? Cause this is how you end up with two ARs.

[5pins]

Do you want two ARs? Cause this is how you end up with two ARs.

Or 11. :cool:

[Mark D]

I've had a chance to inspect and shoot an early S&W MP 15 (probably made in 2007 or 2008, before S&W introduced the sport model).

This particular rifle shoots well, is accurate and has had no significant issues over a few thousand rounds. Gas key staking is solid. Castle nut wasn't staked, but that's an easy fix. The government profile barrel is on the heavy side compared to a lightweight barrel, but otherwise it's a solid carbine. If I wanted to buy an AR in a pandemic, and a S&W MP15 was available, I'd jump on it.

ETA: Remembered another shooting buddy with an M&P 15 Sport. He loves it and has shot the shit out of it. In fact he shot the barrel out, and had another barrel installed.

[Chomps]

Well that goes to show the availability issues right now, because the reason I linked to it is because it was in-stock...

^This^ also figured heavily into my OP. It's moot now, LoL! As of Fri, the S&W's are gone. Snooze ya lose,.... So I started to research the Colt offering they had in stock. Nothing additional, RedDot etc, for appx. $300+ more to start. Once more,.. As of opening their site this very morning,....
YA Snooze ya lose,....

62533



My understanding is the SKU the OP posted includes the Crimson Trace 4 MOA red/green dot shown in his pic (link (https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-15-sport-ii-or-magpul-moe-m-lok-carbine-length-handguard)). So if price, local availability, and being ready to go out of the box are the primary considerations, I might lean that way vs. the one with a fixed front sight and spending an extra $150 or so on an optic. I'd think the MOE handguard would be a little easier to mount a light to as well.

No doubt the configuration TGS linked to is much more modern and flexible, and you can always keep an eye out for good red dot deals when Black Friday rolls around. How's the customer service from PSA in case of an issue? Generally heard good things about S&W in that department but haven't dealt with either myself.

Yup,... Not knowing much of nothing at all. It seemed like a way to go to start off. (...assuming as I asked in the OP that the SW was a decent quality, beginner type AR.



The M&P Sport II is a budget AR but it is, IMHO the best of the "budget" ARs. As BBI said this time last year this was a $500 rifle but it is 2020 so $799 is the current rate.

A work/duty grade AR such as a colt or basic BCM, Sons of Liberty Gun Works (SOLGW) is currently running $1200 to $1500 in the current market. Most higher grade ARs are running $1800 to $2400.

Since you aren't using this for duty, and the current market is inflated, I will say I would rather have a fully equipped M&P Sport II than a higher grade gun and no money for enablers, accessories, mags or ammo.

For the same $$ I would buy the standard M&P Sport II with the A frame front sight rather than the "OR" (Optics Ready) version.

For the uses you mentioned I would want the following for the rifle:

Enablers: An optic (red dot sight) and a light. - why ? Irons are workable when you have young eyes with 20/20 vision but optics are faster and red dots optics in particular are also effective in low light. A long gun used for home or personal defense needs a white light. no exceptions. Many bad things happen in low light and you have an absolute responsibility to positively ID your target.

accessories:

A quick adjust 2 point sling. This is the holster for your rifle. There are many brands most are good. Viking tactics, Blue force gear and magpul are three of the most common.

Magazines: AR magazines are, and were designed to be, consumable, disposable items. They are normally made of aluminum or polymer. You use them till they have problems then throw them away. While you may only use 4 or 6 at any one time, given the potential for mags to be banned you want a lifetime supply. I would want at least 10 to 12 mags, 20 or 30 would be better. Magpul and aluminum GI mags with magpul followers are my choices. Lancer, Troy and Tango Down ARC mags are also acceptable. For GI mags, OK/Surefeed are my first choice, Brownells brand second. The D&H mags also sold as BCM and PSA brand are OK too.

Good luck finding ammo.

Awesome info, Thank you! That will be VERY helpful when/if I am finally ready to buy!

I have a follow up on your "duty grade" AR recs,.. I have read a review or two on THIS (https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/doublestar-mil-spec-dragon-5-56mm-rifle-gun-preview/) rifle that is in stack atm,... Unlike Colt, but like most of the others you mentioned, I've Never heard of Double Star or Dragon. Any opinions on this particular AR @ that price point!.

Seems to be Mil-Spec,.. with a lot of the barrel and upper "upgrades" that some ppl have mentioned for a decent AR.

62532

And as for your last,..? LOL. No kidding!!! :O. 5.56 Ammo seems to be more elusive than even 9mm. So much so, it might just make any decision to pick up an AR regardless of price, quality or availability, irrelevant at this juncture.


(...I found a few off, Off, OFF brands of 5.56 in bulk, but paying good $$ for those doesn't seem like such a good idea to me.)

[rd62]

Never heard of a Double Star. I'd pass.

[Lex Luthier]

Never heard of a Double Star. I'd pass.

What he said Chomps

There are several veteran LEOs here on the board who trust their lives to S & W-made ARs. I defer to their experience.


Under the general search terms "S & W M & P-15 5.56" on Gunbroker, arranged by price;low to high:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Semi-Auto-Rifles/search?Keywords=smith%20%26%20Wesson%20M%20%26%20P-15%205.56&Sort=4&PageSize=24

here's one set-

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/882465822 M & P-15 sport II, NIB with iron sights, $729 buy it now, quantity available: 8

There are also plenty of the versions you posted earlier with the included red/green dot optic on Gunbroker.
(Most here would tell you that Crimson Trace unit isn't reliable as a duty grade bet-your-farm-on-it sight, but you can surely use it to learn with)

As noted, you can get the posted rifle to learn on, and get a more dialed in upper later to meet your needs as they develop. The lower receiver will accept all the usual upgrade components, same as any other decent AR lower. So better triggers, etc are well within reach.
*If you have access to someone who knows ARs and can help you vet them,* some of the regular M&P-15s are worth looking into in the used market. They have nicer features than the Sport IIs do, such as chrome bores and bolt carrier groups.

Let us know how it goes!

[Malamute]

Not knowing much of nothing at all.


Seems to be Mil-Spec,..

Be advised, "mil spec" means just about whatever the advertiser wants it to mean. Many aftermarket guns and parts are not truly made to actual military spec as far as materials (many dont use the specified materials for bolts, receivers, receiver extensions, etc, its expensive), inspections (like every parts individually magnetic particle inspected, also adds to the cost) and so on. Theres no standard for advertising, they can say about anything they want to about their products with zero liability as regards the term "mil spec".

[kitchen's mill]

Sometimes Mil-Spec means Lowest-Bidder

It's a standard that can be exceeded.

[HCM]

^This^ also figured heavily into my OP. It's moot now, LoL! As of Fri, the S&W's are gone. Snooze ya lose,.... So I started to research the Colt offering they had in stock. Nothing additional, RedDot etc, for appx. $300+ more to start. Once more,.. As of opening their site this very morning,....
YA Snooze ya lose,....

62533




Yup,... Not knowing much of nothing at all. It seemed like a way to go to start off. (...assuming as I asked in the OP that the SW was a decent quality, beginner type AR.




Awesome info, Thank you! That will be VERY helpful when/if I am finally ready to buy!

I have a follow up on your "duty grade" AR recs,.. I have read a review or two on THIS (https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/doublestar-mil-spec-dragon-5-56mm-rifle-gun-preview/) rifle that is in stack atm,... Unlike Colt, but like most of the others you mentioned, I've Never heard of Double Star or Dragon. Any opinions on this particular AR @ that price point!.

Seems to be Mil-Spec,.. with a lot of the barrel and upper "upgrades" that some ppl have mentioned for a decent AR.

62532

And as for your last,..? LOL. No kidding!!! :O. 5.56 Ammo seems to be more elusive than even 9mm. So much so, it might just make any decision to pick up an AR regardless of price, quality or availability, irrelevant at this juncture.


(...I found a few off, Off, OFF brands of 5.56 in bulk, but paying good $$ for those doesn't seem like such a good idea to me.)

The review you linked is essentially a long form ad for DoubleStar, similar to the old print gun magazines who swore up and down that Taurus was just as Good (or better) than Beretta 92s or Smith and Wesson Revolvers. Just NO. There is a lot of bullshit and false claims of "mil-spec" in the AR world.

Duty Grade (or better) AR's I can personally recommend:

Colt
LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool)
KAC (Knights Armament Corp)
Noveske
Geissele
SOLGW
Sionics
Daniel Defense
TriArc
LWRC
Smith and Wesson M&P Models (not the Sport/Sport II)
SIG M400 and 516 (Not the Tread)

Re ammo- "off brands" for handgun / civilian ammo may not be "off brands" for military 5.56 /223 ammo. For example, in normal times one of the best values in .223 / 556 training ammo is "Wolf Gold." Unlike the other wolf products which are steel cased and made in Russian, Wolf Gold is brass cased .223 made to US specs by the ammo plant which supplies the Taiwanese military.

[HCM]

The review you linked is essentially a long form ad for DoubleStar, similar to the old print gun magazines who swore up and down that Taurus was just as Good (or better) than Beretta 92s or Smith and Wesson Revolvers. Just NO. There is a lot of bullshit and false claims of "mil-spec" in the AR world.

Duty Grade (or better) AR's I can personally recommend:

Colt
LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool)
KAC (Knights Armament Corp)
Noveske
Geissele
SOLGW
Sionics
Daniel Defense
TriArc
LWRC
Smith and Wesson M&P Models (not the Sport/Sport II)
SIG M400 and 516 (Not the Tread)

Re ammo- "off brands" for handgun / civilian ammo may not be "off brands" for military 5.56 /223 ammo. For example, in normal times one of the best values in .223 / 556 training ammo is "Wolf Gold." Unlike the other wolf products which are steel cased and made in Russian, Wolf Gold is brass cased .223 made to US specs by the ammo plant which supplies the Taiwanese military.

Add BCM (Bravo Company Manufacturing) to that list.

[HeavyDuty]

Never heard of a Double Star. I'd pass.

Third or even fourth tier IMO.

[wvincent]

The review you linked is essentially a long form ad for DoubleStar, similar to the old print gun magazines who swore up and down that Taurus was just as Good (or better) than Beretta 92s or Smith and Wesson Revolvers. Just NO. There is a lot of bullshit and false claims of "mil-spec" in the AR world.

Duty Grade (or better) AR's I can personally recommend:

Colt
LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool)
KAC (Knights Armament Corp)
Noveske
Geissele
SOLGW
Sionics
Daniel Defense
TriArc
LWRC
Smith and Wesson M&P Models (not the Sport/Sport II)
SIG M400 and 516 (Not the Tread)

Re ammo- "off brands" for handgun / civilian ammo may not be "off brands" for military 5.56 /223 ammo. For example, in normal times one of the best values in .223 / 556 training ammo is "Wolf Gold." Unlike the other wolf products which are steel cased and made in Russian, Wolf Gold is brass cased .223 made to US specs by the ammo plant which supplies the Taiwanese military.

No love for Troy?

[HCM]

No love for Troy?

No experience with their guns. Just sights, rails and mags.

[Chomps]

What he said Chomps

There are several veteran LEOs here on the board who trust their lives to S & W-made ARs. I defer to their experience.


Under the general search terms "S & W M & P-15 5.56" on Gunbroker, arranged by price;low to high:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Semi-Auto-Rifles/search?Keywords=smith%20%26%20Wesson%20M%20%26%20P-15%205.56&Sort=4&PageSize=24

here's one set-

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/882465822 M & P-15 sport II, NIB with iron sights, $729 buy it now, quantity available: 8

There are also plenty of the versions you posted earlier with the included red/green dot optic on Gunbroker.
(Most here would tell you that Crimson Trace unit isn't reliable as a duty grade bet-your-farm-on-it sight, but you can surely use it to learn with)

As noted, you can get the posted rifle to learn on, and get a more dialed in upper later to meet your needs as they develop. The lower receiver will accept all the usual upgrade components, same as any other decent AR lower. So better triggers, etc are well within reach.
*If you have access to someone who knows ARs and can help you vet them,* some of the regular M&P-15s are worth looking into in the used market. They have nicer features than the Sport IIs do, such as chrome bores and bolt carrier groups.

Let us know how it goes!

I've come across that site once before surfing the intereebz for buying research. I presume you're saying it's a Legit selling site? TBH, I never even considered trusting a "bidding" site for gun purchases. Knowing jack about it,.. it just seemed "Sketch" to me.

I haven't had the chance to dig into the particulars of the site or how it safeguards or conducts it's transactions,.. Are all of those weapons listed for sale, Private Sellers? Or do retailers post items there as well?

[Clusterfrack]

No love for Troy?

No love.

[Lex Luthier]

I've come across that site once before surfing the intereebz for buying research. I presume you're saying it's a Legit selling site? TBH, I never even considered trusting a "bidding" site for gun purchases. Knowing jack about it,.. it just seemed "Sketch" to me.

I haven't had the chance to dig into the particulars of the site or how it safeguards or conducts it's transactions,.. Are all of those weapons listed for sale, Private Sellers? Or do retailers post items there as well?

Gunbroker is legit. I have been buying & selling there since 2003.
It can be a dealer's dumping site for undesirable guns ( i.e.; returns & seconds) but lots of reputable shops use it in addition to their own store web sites.
Make sure you know the sellers terms before hitting 'buy'.
This has been my experience; ymmv.

[peterb]

Gunbroker is legit. I have been buying & selling there since 2003.
It can be a dealer's dumping site for undesirable guns ( i.e.; returns & seconds) but lots of reputable shops use it in addition to their own store web sites.
Make sure you know the sellers terms before hitting 'buy'.
This has been my experience; ymmv.

I've bought a few items, sold a couple, no issues.

[Willard]

The review you linked is essentially a long form ad for DoubleStar, similar to the old print gun magazines who swore up and down that Taurus was just as Good (or better) than Beretta 92s or Smith and Wesson Revolvers. Just NO. There is a lot of bullshit and false claims of "mil-spec" in the AR world.

Duty Grade (or better) AR's I can personally recommend:

Colt
LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool)
KAC (Knights Armament Corp)
Noveske
Geissele
SOLGW
Sionics
Daniel Defense
TriArc
LWRC
Smith and Wesson M&P Models (not the Sport/Sport II)
SIG M400 and 516 (Not the Tread)

Re ammo- "off brands" for handgun / civilian ammo may not be "off brands" for military 5.56 /223 ammo. For example, in normal times one of the best values in .223 / 556 training ammo is "Wolf Gold." Unlike the other wolf products which are steel cased and made in Russian, Wolf Gold is brass cased .223 made to US specs by the ammo plant which supplies the Taiwanese military.

I was tracking all but this one:

TriArc



Had never heard of TriArc. Something to research if other options unavailable. How did you like the TriARc as compared to others in this category?

[HCM]

I was tracking all but this one:

TriArc



Had never heard of TriArc. Something to research if other options unavailable. How did you like the TriARc as compared to others in this category?

There is a small Texas-based company. Their claim to fame is their barrels with proprietary “track” rifling, which are particularly accurate. Otherwise they are a well built AR on par with BCM, SOLGW etc

Like SOLGW they use a licensed copy of the Hodge Wedge lock rail. The difference being TriArc’s version has built in QDs.

They are popular with individual officers and small departments. One of our neighboring sheriffs officers just bought 30 of their 12.5 inch rifles with that air suppressors for their swat, canine etc.

[Willard]

There is a small Texas-based company. Their claim to fame is their barrels with proprietary “track” rifling, which are particularly accurate. Otherwise they are a well built AR on par with BCM, SOLGW etc

Like SOLGW they use a licensed copy of the Hodge Wedge lock rail. The difference being TriArc’s version has built in QDs.

They are popular with individual officers and small departments. One of our neighboring sheriffs officers just bought 30 of their 12.5 inch rifles with that air suppressors for their swat, canine etc.

Much appreciated. I am in TX and like supporting TX businesses. Thank you for the education.

[Screwball]

With all the BS that has been going on lately, I decided to do a pistol build... along the lines of Val Kilmer’s gun from Heat (Colt 733). More of a KISS pistol, which I actually don’t have an AR like that. I was going to just do a 10.5”... but PSA had a nitrided 11.5” Classic pistol kit.

Got the kit today, and was impressed with the upper. Gas key was staked well, feed ramps were good, and the entire fit/finish was pretty damn excellent for a $460 kit. Hoping to get the pistol built before the winter hits, but I’m feeling like this will be a very decent setup when all complete.

While I’ve heard of horror stories with PSA, most of the reports I’ve been seeing for the past year or two have been pretty good. And if there is an issue, post it in the PSA section on AR15.com. Seems most issues get squared away quickly over there.

[rd62]

Gunbroker is legit. Bought and sold a bunch there over the years.

I like the sound of TriArc's 12.5 middy gas barrel, bur damn they are proud of their stuff.

I'd rather BCM put one out.

[HCM]

With all the BS that has been going on lately, I decided to do a pistol build... along the lines of Val Kilmer’s gun from Heat (Colt 733). More of a KISS pistol, which I actually don’t have an AR like that. I was going to just do a 10.5”... but PSA had a nitrided 11.5” Classic pistol kit.

Got the kit today, and was impressed with the upper. Gas key was staked well, feed ramps were good, and the entire fit/finish was pretty damn excellent for a $460 kit. Hoping to get the pistol built before the winter hits, but I’m feeling like this will be a very decent setup when all complete.

While I’ve heard of horror stories with PSA, most of the reports I’ve been seeing for the past year or two have been pretty good. And if there is an issue, post it in the PSA section on AR15.com. Seems most issues get squared away quickly over there.

PSA has improved, they bought a barrel company and now OEM most of their barrels in-house. The rest are sourced from FN. They still have assembly issues and very hit or miss customer service.

The best guns PSA make right now are actually their AKs. Which again is an outside operation purchased by PSA.

[MistWolf]

Sometimes Mil-Spec means Lowest-Bidder
Lowest bidder that meets the specifications and requirements of the contract.


It's a standard that can be exceeded.
What standards can be exceeded? Define "Exceeds the standard". The specs for a military M4 are pretty high

[JRB]

Primary Arms has BCM assembled lowers back in stock:

https://www.primaryarms.com/bravo-company-mfg-complete-lower-receiver-assembly-gunfighter-stock-bcm-lrg-stk-mod-0-blk

Not a bad choice for a modest cost outlay now, to add a quality upper and BCG to later.

[Wake27]

PSA has had M&P Sports on their daily deal emails a few times since this thread started I believe. And a few days ago, BCM threw a ton of MK2 uppers in stock on their site. ARFCOMs EE also tends to have some solid uppers and lowers, though some of them may be price gouged a bit.

Add centurion to the list of GTG, though they’re so hard to find that it probably won’t matter.

BCMs aren’t perfect but I legitimately think they may be the best overall ARs made, especially considering value and options provided. If I needed a gun and could get a hold of a BCM with one of their enhanced profile barrels and MCMR rails, I’d spend more time figuring out how to pay for it than wondering if it’s worth the money. The VAST majority of users will not be let down by one and that’s coming from someone who has owned two factory Noveskes, currently has two KAC Mod2 uppers, and another upper built around a Hodge barrel. I’m an AR snob and BCM to me is the Glock 19.5 easy button answer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TGS]

Add centurion to the list of GTG, though they’re so hard to find that it probably won’t matter.

I'm not entirely sure. I say that as someone that owns a Centurion, and wanted my Mk12 from him because of all the fan-fare....one of the few purchases I've made in the last 10 years based on such rather than my own research.

Monty doesn't use HPT bolts, considering it unnecessary. He also pins the gas block on top of the barrel, which is known to cause gas leak issues (and did so on my personal example, so they opened up the gas port to compensate for short stroking).

Great CS from his wife who manages the business, but I wouldn't make my purchase from them again. If random sumdood is selling rifles with top-pinned gas blocks and non-milspec bolts, people are critical of such....but since it's a Navy SEAL, people go have an oogie-cookie over his rifles and simply don't talk about these objective shortcomings.

[HeavyDuty]

I'm not entirely sure. I say that as someone that owns a Centurion, and wanted my Mk12 from him because of all the fan-fare....one of the few purchases I've made in the last 10 years based on such rather than my own research.

Monty doesn't use HPT bolts, considering it unnecessary. He also pins the gas block on top of the barrel, which is known to cause gas leak issues (and did so on my personal example, so they opened up the gas port to compensate for short stroking).

Great CS from his wife who manages the business, but I wouldn't make my purchase from them again. If random sumdood is selling rifles with top-pinned gas blocks and non-milspec bolts, people are critical of such....but since it's a Navy SEAL, people go have an oogie-cookie over his rifles and simply don't talk about these objective shortcomings.

Thanks for the info - I’ve only bought components from them over the years (rails, sights) that have been superb. I just assumed their complete uppers would be about as good as it gets. They will definitely stay in my short list if I need more components, though.

[kitchen's mill]

Lowest bidder that meets the specifications and requirements of the contract.


What standards can be exceeded? Define "Exceeds the standard". The specs for a military M4 are pretty high

MIL-SPEC for many items in inventory can be dated, it's sometimes easier to use existing materials than change drawings/rewrite specs.

With the M4 modern materials, manufacturing techniques, protective coating could exceed the standard. Bolts, barrels, springs that outperform the standard.

Two easy examples of exceed

MIL-C-70599A standards for acceptance

Accuracy: 5 MOA

Reliability, Durability: minimum 6,000 rounds between failure.

Most upper tier ARs would exceed that standard, most if not all the rifles I was issued would exceed that.

[MistWolf]

MIL-SPEC for many items in inventory can be dated, it's sometimes easier to use existing materials than change drawings/rewrite specs.
We're specifically talking about the M4 here.


With the M4 modern materials, manufacturing techniques, protective coating could exceed the standard. Bolts, barrels, springs that outperform the standard.
I don't think we've seen that other coatings definitively exceed what's being used. Maybe bolts & barrels could be made to exceed specs s far as durability & precision, but probably not without changing other standards, like cost and production rate. As far as springs go, I'm not sure if many makers manufacture AR springs that are as good as mil-spec springs. In particular the extractor spring. Sprinco springs are good to go, but not many others.


Two easy examples of exceed

MIL-C-70599A standards for acceptance

Accuracy: 5 MOA

Reliability, Durability: minimum 6,000 rounds between failure.

Most upper tier ARs would exceed that standard, most if not all the rifles I was issued would exceed that.
I will admit the 5 moa thing has me scratching my head. I haven't seen many ARs shooting military ammo shoot that poorly. The worst I've seen is 3 to 3.5 moa.

As far as reliability goes, I've seen too many "better than mil-spec" ARs have problems because they are actually out of spec.

Overall, deviating from the materials, dimensions, manufacturing processes etc. to make a milspec AR usually does not result in a better rifle. One notable exception is the KAC.

Getting back to the "built by the lowest bidder" comment. Yes, the M4 supplied to the military is made by the lowest bidder. The lowest bidder that meets the requirements of the contract- and they build a rifle that's hard to beat. If they weren't the lowest bidder capable of meeting the requirements of the contract, it would be a waste of taxpayer money. Kitchen's Mill, I'm not saying you're unaware of this, just bringing the conversation back to my original point.

If 100 rifles were needed by an agency and one bid was at a cost of $900 each and the other was $1000 each for carbines made to identical specs, the agency is gonna give the contract to the lowest bidder.

[kitchen's mill]

We're specifically talking about the M4 here.


I don't think we've seen that other coatings definitively exceed what's being used. Maybe bolts & barrels could be made to exceed specs s far as durability & precision, but probably not without changing other standards, like cost and production rate. As far as springs go, I'm not sure if many makers manufacture AR springs that are as good as mil-spec springs. In particular the extractor spring. Sprinco springs are good to go, but not many others.


I will admit the 5 moa thing has me scratching my head. I haven't seen many ARs shooting military ammo shoot that poorly. The worst I've seen is 3 to 3.5 moa.

As far as reliability goes, I've seen too many "better than mil-spec" ARs have problems because they are actually out of spec.

Overall, deviating from the materials, dimensions, manufacturing processes etc. to make a milspec AR usually does not result in a better rifle. One notable exception is the KAC.

Getting back to the "built by the lowest bidder" comment. Yes, the M4 supplied to the military is made by the lowest bidder. The lowest bidder that meets the requirements of the contract- and they build a rifle that's hard to beat. If they weren't the lowest bidder capable of meeting the requirements of the contract, it would be a waste of taxpayer money. Kitchen's Mill, I'm not saying you're unaware of this, just bringing the conversation back to my original point.

If 100 rifles were needed by an agency and one bid was at a cost of $900 each and the other was $1000 each for carbines made to identical specs, the agency is gonna give the contract to the lowest bidder.

I was talking about MIL-SPEC in general, but I am familiar with how specs are written, was involved in the process for 30 years.

My point is, and I guess the point of this question, as an individual I am not bound by Government contracts.

I can use the MIL-STD as a guide or choose not too, in the case of the issue rifle there could be examples that exceed the standard.

Noveske and Les Baer are two examples of rifles, that at least at one point, were built to exceed MIL-SPEC.

I'm sure you know that military units have issued rifles other than the M4.

[MistWolf]

My point is, and I guess the point of this question, as an individual I am not bound by Government contracts.
That's true. But that's a completely different discussion than "M4 made by lowest bidder".


I'm sure you know that military units have issued rifles other than the M4.
Of course. Again, that's a different discussion.

Getting back to the original question- Is a sub $1K AR a waste of money? No. But, you gotta know what to look for, how to correctly identify problems and fix them.

[DDTSGM]

Monty doesn't use HPT bolts, considering it unnecessary.

There are others who are of the same mind, KAC among them.

If it's C-158, been shot-peened to relief stress, then magnafluxed, I'm happy.

[kitchen's mill]

That's true. But that's a completely different discussion than "M4 made by lowest bidder".
.

Never said it was

[HCM]

There are others who are of the same mind, KAC among them.

If it's C-158, been shot-peened to relief stress, then magnafluxed, I'm happy.

Yo Tambien ^^^

[HCM]

All this Mil Spec discussion is pointless with regard to commercial guns since there is no 3rd party / GOV inspector ensuring compliance with TDP..

I've seen companies ship improperly assembled guns, guns marked 5.56 that actually have .223 chambers, you name it, all labeled "mil spec."

For commercial purposes "mil spec" pretty much just means standard AR parts should fit / no proprietary parts.

[Casual Friday]

$1K and under in this market is tough.

[kitchen's mill]

A manufacturer can still claim to use parts that are manufactured from materials that conform to MIL-SPEC.

But you could not claim that the end item is inspected to the MIL-STD unless you had a third party certified lab ( big money) that had access to the TDP which is licensed to COLT.

Even Manufacturers that do have the testing labs necessary, still don't bother. Unless you are bidding on the M4/M16 contract what would be the point. That is the reason FN has the TDP and Remington was sued over the same.

That applies to commercially available Colts as well, unless Colt wants to spend the money to do the certification testing, and even then Government inspectors would not have participated even though they used a Government certified lab.

Point being that ARs can and are manufactured with materials and techniques that exceed MIL-SPEC.

It becomes a sales gimmick at some point.

[kitchen's mill]

The Government is increasingly moving away fro MIL-STD and going to ISO

Most all major Government contractors are required to maintain a third party ISO lab and supply data to demonstrate conformance to contract.

Colt and FN labs are third party ISO certified and further certified by the Government.

Takes big money to create these labs, I made a good living doing it.

It also adds cost to the finished product.

[Duelist]

Wrong thread