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Corlissimo
06-19-2012, 10:14 PM
I’ve recently obtained a new HK P30L and I’m currently working on shifting from .40 S&W to 9mm for EDC use. I have no issues finding FMJ ammo for training/practice but as I’ve been working on this transition, a few questions about JHP load selection have cropped up. I’ve been reading around a lot of different places and searching high and low, but I need some straight answers because I'm a little unsure of some things.

First off, I’m only looking for loads listed on DocGKR’s Self-Defense Ammo (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo) post. My questions pertain to +P ratings and bullet weights.

1. How desirable is it to run a higher pressure load (+P, +P+) over a standard pressure round?

2. Is running +P in my > 4” barrel a waste of money, or is there a tangible benefit
(flatter trajectory, barrier penetration, etc.) to be had in doing so?

3. 147gr vs. 124gr? Pros & Cons of each?


Side Note:
When shooting my .40 I lean towards 180gr over 165gr as the heavier round has a more controllable recoil impulse. This only applies to my FMJ practice ammo though. I don’t use any JHP in 165gr as I haven’t seen that weight in the brands I choose to use for SD. (Speer GD 180gr or Federal HST 180gr)

4. Do these same characteristics I’ve seen in .40 S&W translate to 9mm?

Thanks.

JAD
06-19-2012, 10:24 PM
I don't have an answer but I think it's a very good question. If we accept service caliber functional equivalency -- the idea that shootability, platform, and capacity outweigh presumably minor differences in terminal performance -- then 9x19 +P wouldn't seem to make sense. Why sacrifice shootability for oomph if it makes no difference? And if something as minor as 100 fps makes a difference worth sacrificing shootability, then shouldn't we be running .40 or .45?

TCinVA
06-19-2012, 11:26 PM
My criteria is somewhat unsophisticated:

1. Look at what's on Doc's list of recommendations
2. Buy whatever of those options I can find the cheapest that still has flash retardant powder

There may be some tangible benefits to the 147 grain 9mm loads in certain circumstances, but 124 grain +P loads tend to be the types of loads that work best with my sights and from what I understand they're doing a bangup job on the street.

1. How desirable is +P? Well many 9mm pistols are set up for +P or equivalent rounds. NATO 9mm ammo is considerably hotter than our typical 9mm fare here in the states. The 9mm spec here is designed to not blow up 100 year old Luger pistols. That being said, your typical 147 grain duty/carry quality round isn't exactly a shrinking violet in terms of how it's loaded. The SAAMI specs for caliber are a range...expect duty/carry ammo that's worth anything to be in the upper end of the 9mm spec even if it's not +P. While Doc may be able to intelligently describe differences in +P and standard pressure loads in his testing that would be important in some situations, I think you'll probably find that if it's on the approved list the differences are going to be fairly minor almost to the point of making it difficult to identify a tangible benefit for the average user.

2. Waste of money? I would answer that question with a question: Do you find that +P defensive ammo is more expensive than standard pressure defensive ammo? I ask because I don't recall ever having encountered that. Duty/carry ammo is more expensive because it is made with higher quality components (better quality primers, sealant, higher quality powder, nickel plated cases, taper crimping to enhance the reliability of feeding, more intricately designed/manufactured bullets, higher levels of quality control, etc) and better attention to detail which is going to necessarily cost more. A little bit more powder crammed into the case is going to make little or no difference in price.

3. 124 vs 147? From a terminal ballistics and intermediate barriers standpoint Doc is your man to ask about those specifics. Personally I know my P30 shoots well with 124 grain ammo with the Heinie sights on the pistol, and I managed to snag a bunch of 124 grain +P HST rounds cheap so I carry that.

4. While I'm sure some folks are sophisticated enough to sense a difference in the recoil impulse between 124 +P and 147 grain rounds, I never really did...but I didn't really compare bullet weights within families, either as I shot different manufacturers/loadings with the different bullet weights. I had the same preferences for heavier loads when I dabbled with .40 pistols some years ago as well, but in 9mm I've never really noticed any difference in the way it feels to run them in the gun. The most difference I feel is the difference between running bulk 9mm ammo and duty/carry ammo in general as the duty/carry stuff is zippier.

TGS
06-20-2012, 01:20 AM
1. How desirable is it to run a higher pressure load (+P, +P+) over a standard pressure round?

As desirable as you want it to be. There's no objective reason to do so. As long as it makes Doc's list, if it makes you warm and fuzzy, go for it.


2.Is running +P in my > 4” barrel a waste of money, or is there a tangible benefit
(flatter trajectory, barrier penetration, etc.) to be had in doing so?

Not a waste of money IMO, but to my knowledge there's nothing objective or solid to say it's beneficial.


3. 147gr vs. 124gr? Pros & Cons of each?

147gr loses less velocity with shorter barrels than a 124gr bullet. Also, theoretically a heavier object with greater sectional density will suffer less deflection and loose less inertia than lighter/lower SD rounds. Do either of these actually mean a real life difference between 124gr and 147gr 9mm? With modern bullet constructions, most likely not...after all, a grain is 1/7000th of a pound. We're talking a miniscule difference in weight between a 124 and 147. As long as we're talking bullets that make Doc's list, my preference is for 147 just because it gives me the warm and fuzzy of having a heavy to caliber SD. I'm also a huge fan of 6.5 rifle bullets and think the 6.5 Grendel is god's gift to the AR and anyone who says otherwise should be deemed a heretic and burn for eternity.......so that's just my preference.

Overall, my philosophy is:

1) Pick something off Doc's list.
2) After you've narrowed it down to Doc's list, pick whatever gives you a warm and fuzzy. They're all going to do pretty much the same thing, and any differences are academic at best.

DanH
06-20-2012, 05:16 AM
anything off of the list should be adequate for SD. That said, some guns are particular about what loads they shoot accurately and the recoil impulse may be different from one load to another as well. IMO try as many of them as you can and select the one that you like best based on any criteria you wish to use. Whether that is accuracy, how it feels, or if you can get one cheaper than another, the choice is yours.

Some people also like to choose a SD load that matches their preferred training round as closely as possible in recoil impulse and POA/POI. Personally, I like this on the theory that training should be as close as realistic as possible in a range setting.

Corlissimo
06-20-2012, 09:51 AM
Some people also like to choose a SD load that matches their preferred training round as closely as possible in recoil impulse and POA/POI. Personally, I like this on the theory that training should be as close as realistic as possible in a range setting.

This is exactly what I do with my .40 ammo selection. Why introduce uneccessary variables into my training/SD shooting? ...Not that I've had to do any shooting in SD. :)

Corlissimo
06-20-2012, 10:32 AM
Thanks for the replies gentlemen. Really helps me to settle down a bit and put some of these noob issues to bed. To save space, and preserve readability, I'll reply to all below. :)



Why sacrifice shootability for oomph if it makes no difference? And if something as minor as 100 fps makes a difference worth sacrificing shootability, then shouldn't we be running .40 or .45?


That's what I'm getting at. Since 9mm is a new-to-me round, I'm trying to sort through everything about as best I can. These replies, and the ones below are very helpful in that regard.



My criteria is somewhat unsophisticated:

1. Look at what's on Doc's list of recommendations
2. Buy whatever of those options I can find the cheapest that still has flash retardant powder

...While Doc may be able to intelligently describe differences in +P and standard pressure loads in his testing that would be important in some situations, I think you'll probably find that if it's on the approved list the differences are going to be fairly minor almost to the point of making it difficult to identify a tangible benefit for the average user.

Agreed. Makes perfect sense.
Additional question: How do you know which ones have flash retardant powder?
I only found this characteristic in my .40 rounds via low/no light shooting.



2. Waste of money? I would answer that question with a question: Do you find that +P defensive ammo is more expensive than standard pressure defensive ammo?


Good point. Truthfully, I have only just started to look for a defensive round so I haven't really priced anything. My casual observations are that you are correct -- there really is no appreciable difference, if any, in price between +P and standard pressure rounds.

Besides, I'm looking for a defensive round, so price will not be the highest item on the priorities list. Right now though, I'm only looking to purchase a 50rd box, or three, at a time to verify reliability in my gun. Once I've run 100-200 flawless rounds of a given type through my P30L then I'll call that good enough and order bulk. The more mfg's/loads I can prove run well, the better my shopping selection will be down the road. I'm just starting out on this road though.



As long as we're talking bullets that make Doc's list, my preference is for 147 just because it gives me the warm and fuzzy of having a heavy to caliber SD. I'm also a huge fan of 6.5 rifle bullets and think the 6.5 Grendel is god's gift to the AR and anyone who says otherwise should be deemed a heretic and burn for eternity.......so that's just my preference.


LOL! Love that Grendel reference! :)

Yep, I prefer heavier rounds too. From the data Doc posted, the terminal ballistics between 124gr & 147gr are so similar that it's almost pointless to worry about it. That leaves the concept that a heavier round will tend to deflect less. I like that, and always will... unless there is some data that proves the opposite.

ToddG
06-20-2012, 10:44 AM
One other benefit of +p ammo is that it provides greater slide velocity which can make a difference in terms of reliability under adverse conditions. A good friend of mine used to run standard pressure practice ammo but +p+ (9BPLE) or +p (124gr +p Gold Dot) duty ammo in his department's guns. When the guns got too dirty, dry, or otherwise hampered to run the practice ammo he'd load up a few mags of the higher pressure stuff and they would fire without missing a beat.

Having said that, I'm also a confessed member of the Church of Speed. All else being equal -- meaning a round that has successfully received DocGKR's stamp of approval -- I'm going to opt for higher velocity. There may be no scientific evidence that it makes a difference, but I believe in the voodoo. Part of that is probably because I started my shooting career during the era when 147gr 9mm failures to stop were commonplace. Rationally I realize that a number of 147gr JHPs these days have been extremely successful but I just can't quite wrap my head around it... :cool:

jetfire
06-20-2012, 10:59 AM
I pretty much buy either Winchester Ranger 147 grain or Federal HST 147s when I can get them. I really can feel a difference in recoil impulse between the 124 +P stuff and the 147 if I shoot them back to back, and I just prefer the 147.

Corlissimo
06-20-2012, 11:16 AM
One other benefit of +p ammo is that it provides greater slide velocity which can make a difference in terms of reliability under adverse conditions. A good friend of mine used to run standard pressure practice ammo but +p+ (9BPLE) or +p (124gr +p Gold Dot) duty ammo in his department's guns. When the guns got too dirty, dry, or otherwise hampered to run the practice ammo he'd load up a few mags of the higher pressure stuff and they would fire without missing a beat.

Having said that, I'm also a confessed member of the Church of Speed. All else being equal -- meaning a round that has successfully received DocGKR's stamp of approval -- I'm going to opt for higher velocity. There may be no scientific evidence that it makes a difference, but I believe in the voodoo. Part of that is probably because I started my shooting career during the era when 147gr 9mm failures to stop were commonplace. Rationally I realize that a number of 147gr JHPs these days have been extremely successful but I just can't quite wrap my head around it... :cool:

Hadn't thought about the slide velocity aspect. That also makes sense, especially for a carry gun that you might need to count on to save your bacon. Thanks Todd! :cool:

In a quick search, it seems like no 147gr loads are available in anything but standard pressure, at least for JHPs... and at least for anything on Doc's list. Guess that leaves 124gr if I am looking for a JHP +P round. I'm also presuming that 147gr NATO is strictly FMJ (hence the "NATO" designation) correct?

Chuck Haggard
06-20-2012, 11:45 AM
I was going to type up a big reply, but TC and Todd have already said what I was going to.

147gr would not meet NATO spec as they don't spec 9mm ammo for bullets that heavy, the last I knew anyway. The HST is the only 147gr +P that I am aware of.

We issue the 124gr +P Gold Dot at my job, and use 124gr Blazer or Federal AE as our practice load. The recoil and POI on both is so close to the duty ammo that we have had very good luck with this combination.

We have never had a stoppage on the street with the +P Gold Dot, or the range for that matter, even when fired from some really funky shooting positions. This gives me more of a warm fuzzy on the slide velocity advantage aspects of using +P in the 9mm.

I also feel that pistols run best when run to the original design. 1911s run best as 5" guns using 230gr ammo, as an example. Almost every 9mm ever made is built to run 9mm NATO spec ammo, which tends to be a warmer 124gr loading. Staying with that paradigm also gives me a warm-fuzzy.

That being said, if my Chief walked in the roll call door today and said we are carrying 147gr Ranger-T/Bonded/HST/Gold Dot starting tomorrow I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep over it.

TCinVA
06-20-2012, 12:29 PM
Agreed. Makes perfect sense.
Additional question: How do you know which ones have flash retardant powder?
I only found this characteristic in my .40 rounds via low/no light shooting.


I know Speer uses flash retardant in their Gold Dot loads, Winchester uses flash retardant powder in their "Ranger" line of LE ammo (which civilians can still buy) and I believe Federal does in their HST loads as well. As for how you know, it's not something they typically advertise but if you ask the right people you can find out. I'm sure somebody on PF has a list of what types of ammo on the market has flash retardant in the powder, but I've never compiled such a list. It would be a good resource though...so if anyone knows, by all means speak up.



Good point. Truthfully, I have only just started to look for a defensive round so I haven't really priced anything. My casual observations are that you are correct -- there really is no appreciable difference, if any, in price between +P and standard pressure rounds.


I didn't figure there would be, at least not when it comes to prices in gunstores. Perhaps on large contracts, but probably not much even then. Those few extra grains of powder are probably only tiny fractions of a penny per round in real cost so it's unlikely to show up in a significant fashion in retail prices.



Besides, I'm looking for a defensive round, so price will not be the highest item on the priorities list. Right now though, I'm only looking to purchase a 50rd box, or three, at a time to verify reliability in my gun. Once I've run 100-200 flawless rounds of a given type through my P30L then I'll call that good enough and order bulk. The more mfg's/loads I can prove run well, the better my shopping selection will be down the road. I'm just starting out on this road though.


That's a pretty good strategy. I can tell you that the P30 works well with Speer Gold Dot 124 +P and Federal HST 124 +P.

TGS
06-20-2012, 12:50 PM
Winchester uses flash retardant powder in their "Ranger" line of LE ammo

Just not in their Treasury load. My god, if you want to see some big, fun, magnificent flames, go shoot Winchester Ranger 110gr +p+ .38 Special out of your J-frame. :cool: It certainly did the trick in my 3" SP101...

CTone03
06-20-2012, 06:58 PM
My load in a P30 is the 124 grain Gold Dot +P, and my own personal low light testing showed it was very flash suppressed. I'd recommend confirming your chosen load on your own with your gun. Everyone else's advice sounds spot on; my only recommendation would be that when you find a solid load from Doc's list that works in your gun and it checks out, stick with it and don't second guess it. I find many people are torn back and forth over fractions of an inch during testing and such, and they never quite settle on a load they trust.

DanH
06-20-2012, 07:42 PM
I find many people are torn back and forth over fractions of an inch during testing and such, and they never quite settle on a load they trust.

Couldn't agree more. I don't think a bad guy is gonna keep attacking solely because the half dozen Ranger-T's in his chest are in a 3 inch group instead of a 2.5 inch group.

Corlissimo
06-20-2012, 07:43 PM
I was going to type up a big reply, but TC and Todd have already said what I was going to.

147gr would not meet NATO spec as they don't spec 9mm ammo for bullets that heavy, the last I knew anyway. The HST is the only 147gr +P that I am aware of.

We issue the 124gr +P Gold Dot at my job, and use 124gr Blazer or Federal AE as our practice load. The recoil and POI on both is so close to the duty ammo that we have had very good luck with this combination.
This looks like a good starting point for me. I'll have to try this out. Thanks for the insight. As an aside, what pistol(s) & barrel lengths do you run these loads in?

We have never had a stoppage on the street with the +P Gold Dot, or the range for that matter, even when fired from some really funky shooting positions. This gives me more of a warm fuzzy on the slide velocity advantage aspects of using +P in the 9mm.

I also feel that pistols run best when run to the original design. 1911s run best as 5" guns using 230gr ammo, as an example. Almost every 9mm ever made is built to run 9mm NATO spec ammo, which tends to be a warmer 124gr loading. Staying with that paradigm also gives me a warm-fuzzy.

That being said, if my Chief walked in the roll call door today and said we are carrying 147gr Ranger-T/Bonded/HST/Gold Dot starting tomorrow I wouldn't lose a bit of sleep over it.
Soo... kind just scrapping all of the above, eh? j/k :)

Chuck Haggard
06-20-2012, 08:00 PM
We issue Glock 17s and 19s, we have a ton of G26s being carried as BUGs and off-duty, a few as primary by guys like narcs and such.

We have had OISs with all the above, Doc speaks the truth when he says that the various 9mm duty loads are basically not affected by being shot from 3" barrels.


I prefer the 124gr +P by a wide margin, I just wouldn't pee my pants if I had to carry 147gr ammo. I consider myself better armed now than when I carried 9BPLE back in the day, but even that didn't make me lose sleep.

A couple of weeks ago I had to make a run into town from the range and realized that my G17 was loaded up 100% with our current 124gr AE practice load. It's been VERY reliable ammo and performs on par with NATO ball on barriers. Having seen almost half a million rounds of that load go downrange in the past two years I have a warm fuzzy about the reliablity of it.
The guy I was with was also loaded up with range ammo. I just made a comment about really needing to watch our angles of fire if things went sideways (we were headed to a hardware store in the "bad" side of our town, same parking lot we have had two previous OISs at).

I carry the good stuff, but I won't wet myself at the prospect of having to use less than the best if forced to do so. I didn't use to be that way.

Corlissimo
06-20-2012, 09:05 PM
We issue Glock 17s and 19s, we have a ton of G26s being carried as BUGs and off-duty, a few as primary by guys like narcs and such.

We have had OISs with all the above, Doc speaks the truth when he says that the various 9mm duty loads are basically not affected by being shot from 3" barrels.


I prefer the 124gr +P by a wide margin, I just wouldn't pee my pants if I had to carry 147gr ammo. I consider myself better armed now than when I carried 9BPLE back in the day, but even that didn't make me lose sleep.

A couple of weeks ago I had to make a run into town from the range and realized that my G17 was loaded up 100% with our current 124gr AE practice load. It's been VERY reliable ammo and performs on par with NATO ball on barriers. Having seen almost half a million rounds of that load go downrange in the past two years I have a warm fuzzy about the reliablity of it.
The guy I was with was also loaded up with range ammo. I just made a comment about really needing to watch our angles of fire if things went sideways (we were headed to a hardware store in the "bad" side of our town, same parking lot we have had two previous OISs at).

I carry the good stuff, but I won't wet myself at the prospect of having to use less than the best if forced to do so. I didn't use to be that way.

Understood. It's good to know these things from the practical side of things. Not discounting Doc's data in any way, just the opposite. It's comforting to see the loop closed between the testing environment and the real world and to see real correlations, anecdotal or otherwise.

I haven't really been fretting about the actual load selection itself as I'm more than happy to pick from Doc's approved list. It's just that there is a wider selection (to me at least) in 9mm than in .40, plus I've had a few years to work through the .40 loads (also from the list). Since my .40 is a service pistol, +P never factored into my selection process. 9mm is a whole new animal for me and I'd like to shorten my learning curve as much as possible. Who better to help me with this than the crew here at P-F.com? :)

Al T.
06-21-2012, 07:02 AM
FWIW, if the NC store mirrors the SC store, these guys have both the Gold Dot and Federal HST ammo at about 24 bucks per 50 round box.

http://www.lawmens.com/cgi-bin/lawmens/index.html

Chuck Haggard
06-21-2012, 07:19 AM
FWIW, if the NC store mirrors the SC store, these guys have both the Gold Dot and Federal HST ammo at about 24 bucks per 50 round box.

http://www.lawmens.com/cgi-bin/lawmens/index.html


SG Ammo is also a good source generally.

LOKNLOD
06-21-2012, 08:55 AM
Also, theoretically a heavier object with greater sectional density will suffer less deflection and loose less inertia than lighter/lower SD rounds.

Similarly, I'd been under the impression (due to reading something somewhere at some point from someone I must have trusted because it stuck with me) that in 9mm the 147s were a little better around intermediate barriers than lighter weights. I put that here not as a fact but as a question -- is that a true statement? Has there been testing? Is it really just theoretical as TGS said, and not really a documented, discernible difference?

I like the way the 147gr gold dots shoot in my P30, but I've not shot enough to consider that from a statistical view, just subjective judgement. I'd like to shoot them a bit more often, but when I do, I'll need to buy more of the good stuff...

Corlissimo
06-21-2012, 10:23 AM
FWIW, if the NC store mirrors the SC store, these guys have both the Gold Dot and Federal HST ammo at about 24 bucks per 50 round box.

http://www.lawmens.com/cgi-bin/lawmens/index.html

I may have to check them out. I usually don't buy ammo at LGS unless I'm really stuck. I try very hard to NOT be really stuck. :)

SG Ammo is my usual source, with occasional orders going to AmmoToGo. IF I get stuck for practice ammo then my local Wally World usually has what I use. Then again, that's when I'm looking for .40 S&W. I've been through there a few times the last few weeks and 9mm is usually out, or there's little affordable selection.

I'll definitely be keeping my .40 just to have options. I've already started saving for a P30L V3 in .40 as I really want to stay on a single platform now. Once I have that my XD40 Service might get sold.

Thanks again for all the info folks. Very helpful to this Noob. :)

Chuck Haggard
06-21-2012, 10:27 AM
Similarly, I'd been under the impression (due to reading something somewhere at some point from someone I must have trusted because it stuck with me) that in 9mm the 147s were a little better around intermediate barriers than lighter weights. I put that here not as a fact but as a question -- is that a true statement? Has there been testing? Is it really just theoretical as TGS said, and not really a documented, discernible difference?

I like the way the 147gr gold dots shoot in my P30, but I've not shot enough to consider that from a statistical view, just subjective judgement. I'd like to shoot them a bit more often, but when I do, I'll need to buy more of the good stuff...

Not sure how you mean a little better around barriers, but I haven't noticed the 147s to do better than the 124gr +P rounds in getting through cars and such.

We have had a number of OISs where 124gr +P Gold Dot and Ranger-T were used against bad guys in cars, we had zero issues with bullet performance.

Corlissimo
06-21-2012, 10:28 AM
Similarly, I'd been under the impression (due to reading something somewhere at some point from someone I must have trusted because it stuck with me) that in 9mm the 147s were a little better around intermediate barriers than lighter weights. I put that here not as a fact but as a question -- is that a true statement? Has there been testing? Is it really just theoretical as TGS said, and not really a documented, discernible difference?


This question is one of the things that prompted me to post this thread to begin with. Like you, I haven't been able to find any answer based upon quantifiable testing data.

TGS
06-21-2012, 11:13 AM
Similarly, I'd been under the impression (due to reading something somewhere at some point from someone I must have trusted because it stuck with me) that in 9mm the 147s were a little better around intermediate barriers than lighter weights. I put that here not as a fact but as a question -- is that a true statement? Has there been testing? Is it really just theoretical as TGS said, and not really a documented, discernible difference?

I like the way the 147gr gold dots shoot in my P30, but I've not shot enough to consider that from a statistical view, just subjective judgement. I'd like to shoot them a bit more often, but when I do, I'll need to buy more of the good stuff...

It's more of just a warm and fuzzy when talking about handguns being used in the context of self-defense against other humans on Earth. It can matter a lot more when talking about rifles.....SD is the reason that you can use a 6.5x55 Swede for large dangerous African game, and SD is also the reason why intermediate cartridges such as 6.5 Grendel arrive with more energy and less drop at 1000 yards than .308/7.62 NATO...

Bullet construction matters much more in terms of handguns. Still, note that you don't see many 115gr loads on DocGKR's list.....so it obviously does play a role. Much of a role between 124gr to 147gr with modern constructed bullets? Obviously not....that's why it's just a warm and fuzzy factor.

Prdator
06-21-2012, 12:23 PM
FWIW, if the NC store mirrors the SC store, these guys have both the Gold Dot and Federal HST ammo at about 24 bucks per 50 round box.

http://www.lawmens.com/cgi-bin/lawmens/index.html

looked on the site and cant find ammo anyplace?? it only comes up with S&W under guns and ammo. ??

Corlissimo
06-21-2012, 12:31 PM
looked on the site and cant find ammo anyplace?? it only comes up with S&W under guns and ammo. ??

Yeah. Pretty sure they only sell in store. It's a LGS for me so I just stop by periodically. I never needed to buy from them via the 'net.

Al T.
06-21-2012, 12:56 PM
Yeah, in store sales. Sorry if I confused any one. The store here has the state contract for Federal and CCI LE ammo, think it's the same in NC. Hard to beat the price, especially if you just want a box or two.

jslaker
06-21-2012, 01:15 PM
Yeah, in store sales. Sorry if I confused any one. The store here has the state contract for Federal and CCI LE ammo, think it's the same in NC. Hard to beat the price, especially if you just want a box or two.

Yeah, that's awesome. About what it costs me online minus shipping. My LGS wants like $27 for 20rd boxes of Gold Dots, and pushes stuff like Hornday.

Sparks2112
06-21-2012, 01:32 PM
We have hst's and gold dots in stock currently. Just as a FYI.