Striker Manual Safety: when to use?

[Yute]

I am a Glock user, and I have a problem. Mainly that I qual with the M17 in 3 weeks for the first time and need to figure out the manual safety. My question is for those that use manual safeties on a striker gun is when you are turning the safety on/off.

On the M4 I'm one of those people that tries to use the safety whenever possible: that means in before executing a reload, during malfunctions (if the hammer isn't forward), and any sort of movement/level change.

While I ride and can deactivate the M17 safety with my firing hand thumb without issue, it is pretty stiff and I find myself having to use my support hand to activate it consistently. A silky 1911 safety it is not.

Per Table VI of the new Pistol Qual, you fire 10 rounds standing unsupported, reload, fire 10 rounds kneeling, reload, and then stand and move towards and engage the remaining 10 targets. This is all continuous unlike the prior qual. Per the TC we are expected to safe the weapon between level changes after the reload.

For range qual that's fine, but off the range I'm inclined to disengage the safety once I get into a thumb-pectoral index and leave it off until it's time to reholster. What are other folks doing? Thanks!

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Personally, my basic rule is that once I hit the thumb/pectoral index, the safety is off until I come of target, but I consciously go on safe if I walk or talk. As soon as I'm doing a non-shooting task, I safe whatever I'm using. For a few years it was a different gun every month on account of the magazine I worked for and I just forced my hands to adapt.

I don't know that this is the best way, but I found it pretty effective.

[Navin Johnson]

Probably run it like a striker-fired gun without a safety.

Are not safeties superfluous on a handgun?

[revchuck38]

Having been brought up on 1911s, the safety is applied any time I'm moving and not shooting, when I'm finished engaging the target, and when holstering. I run my M&P 45s the same way. The 1911's safety can't be engaged when the slide is locked back (though the M&P's can), so I ignore it when loading.

[HeavyDuty]

Are not safeties superfluous on a handgun?

No.

[Rex G]

Probably run it like a striker-fired gun without a safety.



The problem, with this method, is that a safety lever can be accidentally/incidentally bumped or brushed against something, and therefore be in an unexpected position, when one needs to fire. Better to manage that safety, at all times.

This is not theoretical. It is real. I found a 1911 thumb safety, in the incorrect “off” position, more than once, with at least one of the 1911 pistols I used in the Eighties, to 1991. This bump/brushing occurred while the weapon was holstered. (I was then without any 1911, for a few years. I don’t remember this happening again, mid-Nineties to the present.)

Mas Ayoob has documented at least one incident, during which a Beretta safety lever was moved to the “safe” position during contact with pavement, or the ground, with a sad result for the defender when he regained control of the weapon.

I believe that it is a best practice to actively manage any active safety device.

I will not address the actual safety operation of a striker-fired weapon, any further than this, because my only weapons with thumb safety levers are hammer-fired, so there may be something I don’t know that I don’t know.

[Hideeho]

I carry a P365 w/manual safety AIWB. Flick safety on when holstering. Flick safety off when holstered.

[jd950]

My SFA experience is limited but I would consider the safety on an SFA as analogous to a 1911 or Hi Power. Generally, I have always been taught that safety comes off as you go on target or during active threat management, then back on when done firing, when the threat has sufficiently dissipated, when transitioning to something like a low ready, moving, holstering, etc.

As suggested in other posts, this active management of the safety lever is important not only for the intended purpose of the lever, but to insure you have control over the readiness of the gun and do not inadvertently have the safety in the improper position for the situation at hand.

I suspect some of the more "high-speed" folks around here have more sophisticated advice.

[Navin Johnson]

No.

Please understand my sarcasm......I wish there was a striker gun with a usable TS.

I cringe when I see large deployment of 320/PPQ/ Type triggers because they are easier to "teach".

20 years ago people would have shit themselves if someone holstered a 92 still cocked. I don't see the difference between that and a modern fully tensioned SF pistol. (Yes I know a cocked gun has internal safeties that are disabled but I'm making a point)

[Zincwarrior]

Excellent question young man! With a slide safety I always wondered how that was done myself, outside of a competition context with a 1911? I was always nervous about not activating it at the wrong moment (outside of a 1911).

Quick question, can you ride the safety like on a 1911? Is that a factor also?

[HeavyDuty]

Please understand my sarcasm......I wish there was a striker gun with a usable TS.

I cringe when I see large deployment of 320/PPQ/ Type triggers because they are easier to "teach".

20 years ago people would have shit themselves if someone holstered a 92 still cocked. I don't see the difference between that and a modern fully tensioned SF pistol. (Yes I know a cocked gun has internal safeties that are disabled but I'm making a point)

Got it - a misunderstanding on my part. The SCD is what brought me back to Glock after a bunch of years with manual safety equipped M&Ps - I’m a dinosaur that was taught to keep thumb on hammer when reholstering my revolver, and the Gadget is analogous to that.

[LittleLebowski]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?8563-D-amp-L-Cominolli-Glock-Safety

[Zincwarrior]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?8563-D-amp-L-Cominolli-Glock-Safety

I think he's referring to the M17 which already has a manual safety.

Did the OP have a training class (if he's qualifying I assume there was a class)? I would follow what they taught at least for the test. Our instructors do the test as well and would want you to follow their teaching method.

[psalms144.1]

Since recently returning to the True Faith of the 1911, I engage the safety anytime I'm not actively engaging a target, including moving between firing positions (including taking a knee from standing as part of our qual).

IMHO, engaging the manual safety as part of an emergency reload is wasted effort, but with 12 years of active AAAARMY time under my belt, I get how things are.

[TheNewbie]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?8563-D-amp-L-Cominolli-Glock-Safety


I wish that was a more common modification, or that Glock would make a useable safety. That combined with an SCD would be 1911/Hi-Power style. Engage the safety and then ride the hammer/SCD.


The M&P is the best safety on a striker I’ve found, but it’s still not great in my opinion.

[Navin Johnson]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?8563-D-amp-L-Cominolli-Glock-Safety

Love to try one.....

I can only imagine the shock and discust on people's faces seeing a manual safety on a Glock.

I had a guy shame me for an SCD.....

[Yute]

Quick question, can you ride the safety like on a 1911? Is that a factor also?

Did the OP have a training class (if he's qualifying I assume there was a class)? I would follow what they taught at least for the test. Our instructors do the test as well and would want you to follow their teaching method.



Thanks for the replies everyone!

We just did the preliminary marksmanship instruction for the M17 this weekend but to be honest the instructors didn't really have an answer on when to use the safety aside from "the Army gave you one... So use it".

I can use a 1911 safety without issue. The M17 safety is just small/stiff for me - not sure if the stiffness will improve with time. As an aside I worried that the Glock's MHS submission would suffer from the same issue with that tiny nub of a safety; the Cominolli safety looks much better designed.

Right now the Glock side of my brain thinks keep the safety off once out of the holster and only think about it again before re-holstering.

The "use the safety always" side of my brain thinks I should disengage the safety just as I come onto target in full arm extension and engage it when off target. But part of me worries that if I ever have to shoot from retention (which the Army does not train you in) I would forget to disengage it.

Thanks!

[Bergeron]

I wish that was a more common modification, or that Glock would make a useable safety. That combined with an SCD would be 1911/Hi-Power style. Engage the safety and then ride the hammer/SCD.


The M&P is the best safety on a striker I’ve found, but it’s still not great in my opinion.

I started out trying the Cominolli. The big issue I had with it was that it was in the right position for one-handed use, but that lever was in the way of my support hand palm. In the "on safe" position is right where I want the "off safe" position. I've got a couple of G19s with a smith trying to see if that can be made to work. I use the SCD, and really like the "safety and hammer" sort of experience with a Glock that the combination provides.

I'm confident that the smith can turn out something good, so I patiently wait.

I absolutely agree that I wish Glock had good factory thumb safety options, but I can dream on. I had a fantastic sort of experience with the M&P .45 thumb safeties several years back.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Two caveats – I have no time on the M17 and I don’t know what Big Army is teaching regarding manipulations.

With any frame mounted safety, regardless of the frame’s material, I manipulate the safety in straight Modern Technique on the front end and PatMac (rather than ModTech) on the backside. Which translates damn near identically with the M4/AR pattern carbine.

If the TC is calling for putting the safety on when changing positions, it fits with the PatMac doctrine of Off Target/On Safe and OnTarget/OffSafe.

With the 1911s I carried, used through most of my career, and several years with M&Ps that have thumb safeties – I carried the pistol on safe. When the safety is manipulated depends on whether one is drawing to the low ready or to shoot. If I’m drawing to the low ready, the pistol stays OnSafe untl the shoot decision is made & the pistol is coming up onto the target. If I’m drawing to shoot, the safety comes off as the muzzle rotates onto the target and begins to move forward (count 2 or 3 depending on who's draw you adopt).

Going back on safe … I try extremely hard to stay with the OffTarget/OnSafe doctrine. So, after shooting and while assessing the BadGuy, the pistol is still OffSafe. Once the muzzle leaves the BadGuy, the safety goes back on – which I can do by moving the thumb off the safety to underneath it & pushing it up into the On position. If I were changing positions and I’m not seeing the threat/target through the sights I’ll put the safety back on.

But, that’s just me.

( Part of why I choose the M&P was the frame mounted safety. )

[Yute]

Thank you - a fantastic perspective.

Are you engaging the safety on the M&P between reloads?

I do like Pat Mcnamara's perspective where an AR safety is an enabler, never a disabler - though compared to the M17 safety, the AR safety is far more ergonomic.

Admittedly this is a very esoteric/gun geek topic. I think I just have to overcome my Glock mentality/work out my thumbs more...

[HCM]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?8563-D-amp-L-Cominolli-Glock-Safety


I wish that was a more common modification, or that Glock would make a useable safety. That combined with an SCD would be 1911/Hi-Power style. Engage the safety and then ride the hammer/SCD.


The M&P is the best safety on a striker I’ve found, but it’s still not great in my opinion.


Love to try one.....

I can only imagine the shock and discust on people's faces seeing a manual safety on a Glock.

I had a guy shame me for an SCD.....

I'm not opposed to the IDEA of a manual safety on a Glock but having actually shot a gun so equipped, the D&L/Cominolli Glock Safety is a mushy, useless ball of suck.

Glock has made at least two versions of a thumb safety model for foreign LE contracts and they made one with a cross bolt/AUG type safety (same type as on the L85 Rifle) for the UK pistol trials that wound up being won by the standard G17 Gen 4.

[Yute]

They made one with a cross bolt/AUG type safety (same type as on the L85 Rifle)

Oof. Part of my soul died reading that.

[TheNewbie]

I'm not opposed to the IDEA of a manual safety on a Glock but having actually shot a gun so equipped, the D&L/Cominolli Glock Safety is a mushy, useless ball of suck.

Glock has made at least two versions of a thumb safety model for foreign LE contracts and they made one with a cross bolt/AUG type safety (same type as on the L85 Rifle) for the UK pistol trials that wound up being won by the standard G17 Gen 4.


Right. My wish is for a quality thumb safety.


Why companies cannot execute this is somewhat of a mystery.


You shot the D&L version that DocGKR posted about? Not the original version?

[98z28]

Caveat: I have limited experience and training compared to many here, including those who have already commented. I spent seven years on the street as a LEO, attended three instructor-level courses (FBI Police Firearms Instructor, NRA LE Tactical Shooting Instructor, and Givens Instructor Development Course), and worked as a firearms instructor the last five years I was in LE (many here know exactly what that is worth...not much). None of the courses I attended specifically addressed manual safety use on a handgun. The policy I have adopted comes from reading people such as ToddG, PatMac, DocGKR, Mas, Bolke, Dobbs, etc., comparing notes with other manual safety users, spending time thinking about it, and from trial and error on the street (which happens quite a bit, unfortunately). That puts me on the bottom rung of training and experience around here, so take what I offer with a significant grain of salt.

I am a fan of ergonomic manual safeties on handguns. I could choose to carry just about any duty handgun I wanted the last five years I was in LE, and I chose to use an M&P - mostly for the manual safety. I even used a manual safety-equipped P30L with light LEM for a while, but I had trouble sourcing (and affording!!!) a second for training, so I switched to the M&P before long.

I fall squarely in the camp of On Target/Off Safe, Off Target/Off Safe. If I am drawing to shoot, the safety comes off as the gun rotates towards the target. The draw count depends on who's draw you adopt, but it is generally at the pectoral index where you could shoot from retention. If drawing to ready, the safety stays on. If extending from ready (to shoot), the safety comes off at the beginning of that motion. When the sights come off target, the safety goes back on - including for reloads. I know many people chose to not re-safe a handgun when reloading or moving in the middle of a stage. My thoughts on this have already been stated in this thread: I want to actively manage the safety rather than expect it to be off when I need to shoot. I also want the extra layer of security if I end up having to move or communicate in the middle of a task, such as reloading. Training to swipe the safety off every time the sight are returning to target ingrains that motion and (I hope) reduces the probability of mistakenly leaving the gun on safe when it's time to shoot.

On the P320 specifically, the safety is stiffer and shorter than the M&P and most 1911s. To click it on, it helps to make sure you are contacting the safety as far out on the lever as you can (the portion earnest the muzzle). That gives you as much mechanical leverage as possible to click in up. I struggled with it for about the first ten minutes. When I started making sure I was lifting up at the far end of the lever, it became easier and the motion quickly became automatic.

[revchuck38]

98z28 - Regarding applying the safety during a reload, do you do it with a slidelock reload as well as with a slide-forward reload?

[98z28]

As a matter of habit, yes.

At slide lock, the safety goes on as the sights come off target and while I reach for a mag. I press the magazine release, load a new mag, and release the slide. If the sights are going back on target, the safety comes back off. If I'm going to a ready position, the safety stays on.

It's worth noting that I don't think this would work well with limited practice. It's a choreographed dance that takes regular practice to maintain.

[Erick Gelhaus]

And, to ad to 98z28's thoughts - I can apply the thumb safety with an M&P but not with a 1911.

[HCM]

Right. My wish is for a quality thumb safety.


Why companies cannot execute this is somewhat of a mystery.


You shot the D&L version that DocGKR posted about? Not the original version?

I shot the original.

[Wendell]

...20 years ago people would have shit themselves if someone holstered a 92 still cocked. I don't see the difference between that and a modern fully tensioned SF pistol. (Yes I know a cocked gun has internal safeties that are disabled but I'm making a point)

I remember Jeff Cooper writing about the 92F (or M9); if I recall correctly, he wasn't a fan of DA (or DA/SA) and he suggested that if someone really needed to carry one, carry in 'condition zero' was probably the best way to do it.

[Bucky]

I remember Jeff Cooper writing about the 92F (or M9); if I recall correctly, he wasn't a fan of DA (or DA/SA) and he suggested that if someone really needed to carry one, carry in 'condition zero' was probably the best way to do it.

Honestly, would carrying a 92 in that condition be any less safe that a P320?

[Mike C]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

We just did the preliminary marksmanship instruction for the M17 this weekend but to be honest the instructors didn't really have an answer on when to use the safety aside from "the Army gave you one... So use it".

I can use a 1911 safety without issue. The M17 safety is just small/stiff for me - not sure if the stiffness will improve with time. As an aside I worried that the Glock's MHS submission would suffer from the same issue with that tiny nub of a safety; the Cominolli safety looks much better designed.

Right now the Glock side of my brain thinks keep the safety off once out of the holster and only think about it again before re-holstering.

The "use the safety always" side of my brain thinks I should disengage the safety just as I come onto target in full arm extension and engage it when off target. But part of me worries that if I ever have to shoot from retention (which the Army does not train you in) I would forget to disengage it.

Thanks!

The Army's pistol marksmanship and unit level leadership by and large are not what I would count on for advice or competency with regards to pistol marksmanship. Our pistol marksmanship program is abysmal. It is getting better but it will take a long time to change the culture but even then you still have to factor in the lowest common denominator. I would however use my safety, as much as possible. If you are worried about remembering to flip the safety off and firing from retention reread what Maple Leaf Actual stated. Pectoral index is retention so if you teach yourself to draw and remove the safety at pectoral index you will be able to fire from retention out to full extension. This requires no live fire to train and ingrain. You can do this just standing outside the arms room in a safe area.

If you decide to run and move with the gun off safe, I would highly advise against it. It presents a safety risk to you and everyone around you, even if you are good about keeping your trigger finger in register. We are all human, the pistol is more or less an extension of your arm and is much easier to point at stuff you don't want to than a carbine or rifle. Therefore I am and always have been firm in the camp of sights on safety off, sights off safety on for everything but admittingly, there might need to be some flexibility where hand size and ergonomics play a large factor in reaching the controls on a pistol. The P320/XL/365 safety leaver is absolutely F'ing useless in terms or size/location on the frame but you can still safely work around this while drawing, moving and reloading.

In spending a lot of time on this platform as of late I believe that the best way to run the 320, 365 and XL is safety off at pectoral index, (as Maple Leaf Actual pointed out), then back on before moving to the holster, moving, or coming to the ready position. If I come to the ready, holster, or my feet move/shift position behind cover the safety comes on before I move. You can trip and fall, smash into cover, other objects, or other soldiers I would not want to risk an ND because it was just easier to leave the weapon on fire. Doing so is just lazy and negligent handling. Negligence will lead to bad shit, it has, does and always will. Not trying to be condescending but really think this through, bad habits take forever to undo, you can't take a round back once it has been fired and lastly if you have poor habits with the pistol there is a possibility it will bleed over to your carbine work. I try to keep everything the same, less to F' up.

[Yute]

Thank you all for the feedback. I've been working the M-17 dry fire more and the safety is growing on me. It is located in a position that allows me to easily disengage it as I form my thumbs forward 2 handed firing grip.

Re-engaging it is still a bit challenging to do consistently because of my small (weak?) thumbs but I am working on it.

Engaging the safety prior to a slide lock reload is something new for my Glock brain, but it is doable.

[Yute]

Appreciate the help everyone, qualed 28/30 this weekend. Oddly while my Glocks shoot left; my M17 shot right until I used less trigger finger.