What's the deal with the Sig P320 these days?

[SwampDweller]

Are the bugs finally worked out, and is this a proven/good to go pistol design yet? I've long been wary of any and all Sigs after experiencing and seeing many QC problems with the hammer fired pistols, as well as seeing the multiple debacles regarding the P320/M17 over the past few years. I've been exploring striker fired pistols more. The gun shop I work at just got a couple of M18s and I must admit that something about them makes me want to like them, I'm just not sure if Sig should be trusted at all, let alone the P320. I was able to shoot a used trade-in commercial M18 and found it to be more accurate in my hands than my G19 in fast fire drills, despite having never fired one before. Has it established any kind of good track record yet as a serious use pistol, or is it still a shaky prospect? I don't hear much about them lately. I'm not sure whether that's because they're good to go now, or if it's because they're just not a serious contender. I would think that the military adopting and issuing it would be something of an endorsement, but there is a lot of doubt cast on the veracity of the XM17 MHS trials (and I think rightly so). Still, even the M9 had some hiccups early on, but quickly went on to prove itself.

[KevH]

A deceased equine and good solid piece of hickory to strike it with.

[KevH]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?43653-New-2-July-2020-SIG-P320-Lawsuit-and-P320-Concerns

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?44408-Are-we-good-with-Sig-now

[HCM]

Search function is your friend - https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?43653-New-2-July-2020-SIG-P320-Lawsuit-and-P320-Concerns

[SwampDweller]

I had read those threads, I guess I was just hoping there was something redeeming that I hadn't yet seen or heard, because so far everything is still pretty damning. Ah well.

[BILLG]

They are good to go as far as I am concerned.Try one for yourself if you do not like it you should have no problems selling it.
Sig haters are going to hate.

[psalms144.1]

Nothing is "worked out" with the P320 platform that's commercially available. It's a pig in a poke on what parts your going to get, what configuration it'll be in, and if it will run. Caveat Emptor.

[HeavyDuty]

Every time I think about picking up a 320, I look at the exploded FCG parts diagram and compare it to the simplicity of my Glocks. That cures me.

[Zincwarrior]

Nothing is "worked out" with the P320 platform that's commercially available. It's a pig in a poke on what parts your going to get, what configuration it'll be in, and if it will run. Caveat Emptor.

Its one of the leading guns in USPSA and IDPA Production and Carry Optics.

[HCM]

Its one of the leading guns in USPSA and IDPA Production and Carry Optics.

Yes, because it’s relatively cheap and easy to shoot well because it has a nice trigger pull but that is also true of the Springfield XD.

That doesn’t necessarily translate to consistency or safety.

[call_me_ski]

Its one of the leading guns in USPSA and IDPA Production and Carry Optics.

Excelling in competition does not mean they are good for duty or carry. A local SWAT team got themselves some fancy JP rifles and have had nothing but problems.

As for the P320. It might be good, it might not. My question is: With so many vetted options that don’t have the black cloud over them, why choose the P320?

[JonInWA]

I suspect that's where most of us are. I think the P320 has huge potential-and SIG might, or might not have successfully sorted out the safety issues. Some transparency from the mother ship would be nice, but that's unlikely.

There's also the potential bent ejector/structurally compromised FCU chassis caused by using longer magazines than are intended for a given grip module. While the solution is simple (only use the specific magazines matched to a given grip module), that can somewhat detract from the flexibility of the pistol-the significance of that is up to a given shooter. Suffice it to say that I'm glad I use an X-Carry grip with my full-size magazines, instead of using the larger magazines in my OEM Compact grip module...(and there are other benefits to the X-Carry module as well).

For most, I suspect that the advantages of the P320 will be outweighed by the simplicity and established safety and reliability of some of the P320's contenders, such as the Gen5 Glock and HK VP. Organizationally, unless you (and SIG) are considering the FCU to be essentially a disposable/replaceable item as a whole, the speed and simplicity of Glock's detailed disassembly and reassembly is really hard to beat.

I like, appreciate and enjoy my October 2019 production P320. But my trust is somewhat tempered the complexity of the FCU, and the issues attendant with it.

Best, Jon

[Oukaapie]

My biggest problem with the P320 is it doesn't have a gadget or a hammer.

[98z28]

My biggest problem with the P320 is it doesn't have a gadget or a hammer.

That has also been a concern of mine, but now that I've had a chance to play with the manual safety version, it is not. Sig did a good job with the safety's feel and location. Given the trigger's short throw, I think the manual safety is more desirable than a Gadget.

[358156hp]

It's becoming the AR15 of handguns. P320s are enormously popular everywhere but here. I have one myself, and it has always worked perfectly for me. SIG did manage to piss me off quite badly by keeping my gun for almost six months during the recall, but I have nothing but positives about the gun itself.

[Sammy1]

I had failure to extract with two P320 compacts/carry. Sig took them back for warranty fix and about a year later the same problem. I purchased new extractors and assemblies from MGW and no more issues. Cheap fix but something Sig should've done.

[Rex G]

Are the bugs finally worked out, and is this a proven/good to go pistol design yet? I've long been wary of any and all Sigs after experiencing and seeing many QC problems with the hammer fired pistols, as well as seeing the multiple debacles regarding the P320/M17 over the past few years. I've been exploring striker fired pistols more. The gun shop I work at just got a couple of M18s and I must admit that something about them makes me want to like them, I'm just not sure if Sig should be trusted at all, let alone the P320. I was able to shoot a used trade-in commercial M18 and found it to be more accurate in my hands than my G19 in fast fire drills, despite having never fired one before. Has it established any kind of good track record yet as a serious use pistol, or is it still a shaky prospect? I don't hear much about them lately. I'm not sure whether that's because they're good to go now, or if it's because they're just not a serious contender. I would think that the military adopting and issuing it would be something of an endorsement, but there is a lot of doubt cast on the veracity of the XM17 MHS trials (and I think rightly so). Still, even the M9 had some hiccups early on, but quickly went on to prove itself.

Your last line answered your question. Buy a non-early Beretta. Proven. ;) (I do not own any Beretta firearms, so this is not fan-talk.)

Seriously, though, buy proven technology, when one’s life is at stake. And, Berettas are “growing on me.” A local high-end gun store is continually tempting me, with Wilson-ized Berettas. They have 90-day lay-away. It is just a matter of time.

Actually, before switching platforms, try a G17, G19x, or G45, and see if that extra bit of stability, where the lower rear portion of the grip contacts the heel of your hand, enables better personal performance. I have plenty of room, on a G19, for my skinny fingers, but, regardless of the weapon system, will shoot it better if the rear of the grip reaches all the way to the deepest part of the heel of my hand. This is definitely the case, for me, with the G19, compared to longer-gripped Glocks. The only numerically quantifiable targets I shot have shot, with time constraints, were at my PD quals, and I do not remember the numbers, as that was 2014-2017, but the difference was quite noticeable.

Folks I know/know love the G19 and G23, but with VERY few exceptions, they all seem/seemed to shoot the G17 or G22, or other full-length-grip Glock, much better.

I can conceal a G17’s grip as well as a G19’s grip. In either case, the most-noticeable “printing” is the outer rear corner of the rear of the slides that pokes outward against the cover garment, which is the same, for either weapon. (There is an exception: At AIWB, a G17-length grip is more noticeable, but I gave up trying to conceal ANY wide-body pistol at AIWB, so the difference is moot.)

[BehindBlueI's]

It's becoming the AR15 of handguns. P320s are enormously popular everywhere but here. I have one myself, and it has always worked perfectly for me.

I have no doubt the P320 works as it "goes bang when trigger is pulled" the vast majority of the time. I also have no doubt that the number of people shot by their own pistol in situations that other models would not have fired in is higher then I would consider acceptable in a fighting pistol. I know with great certainty Sig knew about the problem much earlier then it was made public (not by them, btw) and kept the information hidden with NDAs for the people that knew.

"Works" is only one criteria for me. I wanted the P320 to be a success. I own exactly two personally owned Glocks while owning three P220s alone, plus a large contingent of other "classic" Sigs. I am not a hater or fanboi. I'll stick with Glock for striker fired because not only do they "work perfectly for me" they are proven drop safe, simpler to maintain, Gen 5/M has been more accurate in T&E, and the SCD option is the cherry on the sundae.

[Sig_Fiend]

That has also been a concern of mine, but now that I've had a chance to play with the manual safety version, it is not. Sig did a good job with the safety's feel and location. Given the trigger's short throw, I think the manual safety is more desirable than a Gadget.

Let me preface this by stating that I am a pessimist and probably should be ignored.

The safety feel and position is quite good. The one thing that irks me is, it only blocks the trigger from moving. It does not restrict sear movement. I'm no mechanical engineer but, it would make sense to me that if you're going to block one you should probably block both. If they just did that, theoretically, I would think that should eliminate the possibility of any AD / drop issues with at least the manual safety versions.

My hope for the P320 concept is that a manufacturer like H&K or Glock will build a better "P320".

The Heckler VP320 shall offer 1 modular grip, because the first one, das ist perfektion. Also offered is 17 modular trigger options, all LEM variants because LEM trigger ist das beste trigger! Additionally, the barrel will now include THREE o-rings for 13% increased accuracy. MSRP is $699 and will be sold exclusively through Gunbroker at 186% over MSRP ($2k).

The Glock Gen320 series will offer 2 modular grip frames in all sizes. The first is a standard 22 degree grip angle, which is perfect. The second is a 45 degree grip angle, which is also perfect. No other modular options are offered or needed.

Lastly, as a classic SIG aficionado, when I saw the P320 AXG, I was like:

62183

In all seriousness, I would love to see another manufacturer take up the torch for the modular pistol concept.

[Bucky]

In all seriousness, I would love to see another manufacturer take up the torch for the modular pistol concept.

Maybe Beretta will give it a try. ;)

[HCM]

I had failure to extract with two P320 compacts/carry. Sig took them back for warranty fix and about a year later the same problem. I purchased new extractors and assemblies from MGW and no more issues. Cheap fix but something Sig should've done.

How long ago ? I had similar issues with an early production 320 compact but more recent guns have been fine.

One issue with the 320 has been literally years of rolling in line changes.

[Sammy1]

How long ago ? I had similar issues with an early production 320 compact but more recent guns have been fine.

One issue with the 320 has been literally years of rolling in line changes.

This spring. Only a couple with my 9mm compact but numerous with my 40 cal carry. No problems since I replaced the parts. The MGW parts were different then what was in the gun (and put in there by Sig in 2019 when I sent them back for warranty service).

[Tokarev]

Excelling in competition does not mean they are good for duty or carry.


https://www.newswire.com/news/staccato-2011-pistols-approved-for-duty-by-over-250-law-enforcement-21233590


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[jnc36rcpd]

Not sure how other people here feel about the 320, but my concern is the "uncommanded discharges" as one lawsuit called them. If a firearm discharges because I dropped it or I moved the wrong way with it holstered ,that concerns me even more than a firearm that fails to fire when intended. At least I have some protocol for a weapon failing to fire. I can reload or tap-rack-up or whatever. Id the weapon just discharges, what is my immediate action drill? "Oops, my bad!" or "Blame SigSauer.".

I purchased the 320 as an off-duty and eventual retirement pistol. I like the feel and the accuracy, but now it's judt a safe queen.

[RJ]

As HCM has alluded to in other threads, institutional users appreciate the simplicity and time efficiency of the modular system that Sig uses. I'm familiar with large logistics systems. (I was the chief engineer for the rollout of the UK's Joint Asset Management and Engineering Solutions (JAMES) for the British Army in 2005. JAMES is still in use, tracking over 1.6M items of equipment.)

The elevation of the Sig FCU to LRU (line-replacement unit) level means a significant savings in time and staff expense for keeping the guns running. A supply chain based around FCUs is more efficient and simpler than stocking and maintaining caches of spares and common failure items. Local repair facilities on the line can simply swap out FCUs and re-issue the gun, getting it back in service quickly. This reduces the need for skill and training at the lower maintenance levels, since repair and replacement of FCU parts can be handled at depot, or higher up in the supply chain, or even back to the OEM level.

An added benefit for the FCU approach is very significant: the ability to tailor grip size to different anthropomorphic populations. A quantity of different size grip modules can be kept on hand at local levels, with each user essentially having a tailor made "gun", albeit with the same FCU / S/N. For users with large populations who are required by contract to account for human populations ranging from 5% female to 95% male, this is a big deal.

With user purchase quantities approaching 1 (or, actually 1) the efficiency and cost savings for the FCU approach is not as clear. Replacement is up to the user, and at replacement prices, even if only one component of the FCU is bad. This causes the end-user to pay for an entire FCU. This may or may not be acceptable. Every commercial user who buys a single P320 is adding to the production volume of the design, and further supporting the massive price discounts afforded large quantity purchasers like the US Army or Police forces. Not saying this is something you should or should not do, but if you buy a P320, you've bought into the philosophy of the FCU being a LRU, and will need to be prepared to deal with it if it goes wrong.

Users of other pistol designs, that use distributed, field replaceable parts, find that they are cheap, generally available, and easy to install, and the user can get their gun back running in their own time, themselves. For this reason, the Glock approach of 37 parts (or whatever is the exact number) is likely more attractive, from a cost/benefit ratio, for single digit quantity owners.

As to my personal experience with the Sig FCU design, Mrs. RJ has had a P365 which she really enjoys shooting. She has a few hundred trouble free rounds. She shoots it well.

I experimented with a P365XL recently. I had a couple issues with it. A persistent issue with the FCU was that the two engagement lugs had about 0.100" of slop in the frame. This caused the FCU to rock slightly just before the striker released, in odd hitch that was perceptible. The other was on the magazines. I took the gun to a USPSA match. Loading at the bench at the match, I noticed that the follower on one of the mags I'd dropped (with between 5-10 rounds of ammo) during a mag change had barfed out of the feed lips. I "fixed" it by shoving the follower down past the feed lips again, and reloaded it for the next stage. It's not necessarily a huge deal, but didn't inspire a lot of confidence in it. Aside from those two issues, the gun shot well and was very accurate, with no malfunctions in maybe 600 rounds. After 4 months I traded it for a Glock 48, as I felt the little Sig was a bit too delicate for my use case (as a carry gun. Plus, of course: SCD. :cool:)

[Zincwarrior]

I have no doubt the P320 works as it "goes bang when trigger is pulled" the vast majority of the time. I also have no doubt that the number of people shot by their own pistol in situations that other models would not have fired in is higher then I would consider acceptable in a fighting pistol. I know with great certainty Sig knew about the problem much earlier then it was made public (not by them, btw) and kept the information hidden with NDAs for the people that knew.

"Works" is only one criteria for me. I wanted the P320 to be a success. I own exactly two personally owned Glocks while owning three P220s alone, plus a large contingent of other "classic" Sigs. I am not a hater or fanboi. I'll stick with Glock for striker fired because not only do they "work perfectly for me" they are proven drop safe, simpler to maintain, Gen 5/M has been more accurate in T&E, and the SCD option is the cherry on the sundae.

Exactly. I shoot a SIG in competition, but carry an M&P. If you are not ABSOLUTELY comfortable with a pistol you should not rely on it in a defensive situation.

[SwampDweller]

I suppose this about answers it, then. It does not seem like the P320 design is something I want to get into when there are others that don't have question marks hanging over them. It's a shame, because I really do like the P320.

[RJ]

I suppose this about answers it, then. It does not seem like the P320 design is something I want to get into when there are others that don't have question marks hanging over them. It's a shame, because I really do like the P320.

I hear ya.

I was on a path to swap over to a P320 as a USPSA pistol, when I started learning a bit more about the design. My experience with the P365XL didn't help.

[Tokarev]

I hear ya.

I was on a path to swap over to a P320 as a USPSA pistol, when I started learning a bit more about the design. My experience with the P365XL didn't help.The 365 and 320 may share similar design attributes but they are not the same gun.

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[RJ]

The 365 and 320 may share similar design attributes but they are not the same gun.

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What do you believe are say three key significant differences in design between a P320 and a P365/XL?

(Not trying to be a dick, I genuinely was never sure exactly what made them different.)

[willie]

The Sig handgun line has sold like hot cakes at my lgs. Of course this fact points to consumer habits of the man in the street.

[HeavyDuty]

The 365 and 320 may share similar design attributes but they are not the same gun.

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Is the 365 an improvement over the 320? Serious question, because I kinda like the 365XL with manual safety. And there’s a state law in NH that I have to have SIGs (admittedly, I do have a P220 of which I’m quite fond.)

If I wanted an absolutely reliable, safe as possible, durable 320 with a manual safety, what’s my best path? I’ve been eyeing the MA compliant .45 compact with manual safety that Bass Pro carries on occasion, I have a $200 store credit there that would bring it down to reasonable pricing.

[JonInWA]

At this point, until SIG can demonstratively, believably, and with proof of accumulated field use establish that their design architecture, inherent component quality, manufacturing quality and quality control processes are in fact producing a durable, safe and reliable product, I find myself loath to unhesitatingly recommend ANY of their products other than the P2022.

There have simply been too many issues, too much duplicity, and too little transparency for my personal comfort. While there are individuals in SIG with whom I have found to be exceptionally helpful and consumer orientated, SIG as an organization seems to be inherently flawed in several aspects. Which is unfortunate, because there is potential true excellence within their product lines.

Best, Jon

[SwampDweller]

At this point, until SIG can demonstratively, believably, and with proof of accumulated field use establish that their design architecture, inherent component quality, manufacturing quality and quality control processes are in fact producing a durable, safe and reliable product, I find myself loath to unhesitatingly recommend ANY of their products other than the P2022.

There have simply been too many issues, too much duplicity, and too little transparency for my personal comfort. While there are individuals in SIG with whom I have found to be exceptionally helpful and consumer orientated, SIG as an organization seems to be inherently flawed in several aspects. Which is unfortunate, because there is potential true excellence within their product lines.

Best, Jon

What is it that makes the Sig SP2022 different? The notion that the 2022 hasn't suffered the same QC problems as all the other Sigs is something I've seen spoken of a lot. I'm curious as to why the QC for commercial 2022's would be better than other Sigs. I've seen it said that it's because they're still made for European contracts, but isn't it true that Sig has separate lines of production for contract vs commercial guns?

[HCM]

What is it that makes the Sig SP2022 different? The notion that the 2022 hasn't suffered the same QC problems as all the other Sigs is something I've seen spoken of a lot. I'm curious as to why the QC for commercial 2022's would be better than other Sigs. I've seen it said that it's because they're still made for European contracts, but isn't it true that Sig has separate lines of production for contract vs commercial guns?

There are not separate “lines” of production - more like separate batches.

They have made A LOT of SP 2022s for non US police sales. Meaning they have gotten efficient at building them. But I don’t think they are building Euro police contract guns any longer.

It is more likely they simply have one / most efficient way to make SP2022s.

[JonInWA]

What is it that makes the Sig SP2022 different? The notion that the 2022 hasn't suffered the same QC problems as all the other Sigs is something I've seen spoken of a lot. I'm curious as to why the QC for commercial 2022's would be better than other Sigs. I've seen it said that it's because they're still made for European contracts, but isn't it true that Sig has separate lines of production for contract vs commercial guns?

Without first-hand or any insider knowledge on the SP2022 organizational contract protocols, what I look back on were te test and QC protocols with the Beretta M9, as detailed by R.L Wilson and Gene Gangerosa on their Beretta books. Essentially, to ensure component and overall pistol continued quality IAW contract specifications, there are tests provided on individual pistols, random pistols, and lots of pistols. Any component deviations from the contract require their own protocols for approval and adoption (such as the fluted polymer guide rod replacing the steel on in the M9.M10 contract pistols in later deliveries).

I'm assuming that these, or similar standards are somewhat standardized within the industry (or can be specifically stipulated by contract). My guess is that since the contract guns were a major component of P2022 overall production (the P2022 was ever particularly aggressively marketed commercially), SIG simply applied the same standards across the board to both contract and commercial SP2022s, at least component-wise. I suspect testing and QC protocols may have been less stringent/frequent for commercial/non-contract pistols, but that's supposition on my part.

Anecdotally, the SP2022s have the lowest rate of warranty returns out ot the entire SIG line-up. It would be interesting to see hard information on how the SP2022 compareds with the P229 over its service life; frankly, my money would be on the SP2022, at least at this point.

For a contemporary DA/SA pistol, and especially a contemporary DA/SA polymer framed pistol, I think the SP2022 is well worthy of consideration, and price-wise, I think it represents an excellent value. Magazines are contrac Mec-Gars, which doesn't exactly hurt for quality and reliability as well. While I don't currently have one, I had it's predecesssor, the 2340, with both .40 and .357 SIG barrels; I probably shoulda kept that one...

Best, Jon

[MGW]

I have always wondered how long the SP2022 will continue to be produced. It’s one Sig I’ve never owned personally but always been curious about. It’s not the most ergonomic pistol in the world but I’m a big fan of Sig TDA guns. Seems like it’s something I should have personal experience with.

Back to the 320 discussion. In my opinion if you have questions about their safety or reliability you should own something else. There are tons of viable options in the striker gun market. Pick out the features you want, buy a copy or two, and shoot the heck out of it.

I’ve yet to find the perfect striker fired pistol. They all have warts of one kind or another.

[claymore504]

I have always wondered how long the SP2022 will continue to be produced. It’s one Sig I’ve never owned personally but always been curious about. It’s not the most ergonomic pistol in the world but I’m a big fan of Sig TDA guns. Seems like it’s something I should have personal experience with.

Back to the 320 discussion. In my opinion if you have questions about their safety or reliability you should own something else. There are tons of viable options in the striker gun market. Pick out the features you want, buy a copy or two, and shoot the heck out of it.

I’ve yet to find the perfect striker fired pistol. They all have warts of one kind or another.

I think the SP2022 has a few contracts around the world that is keeping it going. I agree on your P320 comment. I was all in on the P320 a couple years ago, but these safety issues just kept coming back, so I moved on. Really I was going DA/SA anyways. I agree, there are plenty of striker fired guns out there these days to chose from. For me, if I had to go striker fired, it would be the M&P M2.0.

[LockedBreech]

My only Sig is the SP2022. The lack of variety in models / calibers / sizes is actually where I think the key to its success lies. They really only have one of the things, they really only make it one way, and they have figured out efficient, steady processes for keeping quality up when it was a .gov contract gun. The SP2022 is absolute proof that criticism for the past 10-15 years of Sig is accurate. If they would simplify their product line and make fewer things, they'd probably have fewer issues. I get that might make them less money, and there's the rub.

Myself, having come to this forum as a gun-a-weeker in 2014 (6 guns bought 2015, 7 bought in 2017, etc.) I finally just hit my wall on that this year. Bought my G19.5, G17.5 MOS, and M2.0 5" Pro Series back in January and March and I haven't even looked at anything else since.

I like Gen 5s and M2.0s. They work really well. Their core function is proven really well. They're comfortable enough. They're accurate enough. I believe in my ability to deploy them well, clear their errors well, and carry them well.

These days money goes to ammo, investments, or computer stuff. Maybe a nice Wilson 1911 and/or Langdon Beretta down the road.

I just don't have the patience to beta test things anymore. Feels like an era every gun owner goes through, and maybe every person who likes guns used to being poor with sudden disposable income - but like an era I have permanently left behind. Didn't even use my 2nd blue label eligibility of the year before I left the DA. Even with Glock, I just didn't see anything else I needed anymore.