At an Impasse and could use advice

[SwampDweller]

Recently I've been toying with the idea of switching to 9mm after shooting .45 ACP for most of my life, for all the usual reasons. My primary carry pistol is an HK45C that I have more experience with than any other pistol. I also have a Glock 19 that I shoot acceptably well under a shot timer, but I am not as confident in my ability to make good hits with it as I am the HK. In a previous thread I was encouraged to try an H&K 9mm since I am so intimate with the 45C, specifically the P30 V3. I purchased one when a good deal came up. Last weekend, I took the 45C, the unfired P30, and my G19 out to the range with my limited supply of 9mm and some .45. I quickly discovered that I was indeed faster with the P30 than the 45C, and started really enjoying how the pistol shot, despite the long reset. The familiarity I had with it because of the HK45C was comforting and inspired confidence. I was beginning to fall in love as I rung steel, until about 350 rounds in. I loaded up the pair of 10 round magazines it came with (they are ban-compliant, and I had 17 rounders on the way but I couldn't wait), loaded one in the chamber, and then topped off the mag. On the first shot, the casing of the +1 failed to extract, being lodged as pictured below. The slide went far back enough that it tried to feed the next round, so the magazine was stuck. Without thinking, I stripped the magazine out, along with the loose round that was trying to feed, but remembered to take a picture of the brass left in the pistol. The ammunition was Winchester 124gr NATO, so it wasn't weak ammo. I shot another 50 rounds without issue, but ran out of the 9mm I brought.

I prefer to fire at least 1,000 rounds in a new pistol before I start to consider it as a reliable carry piece, and I feel more comfortable after 2,000 consecutive rounds of reliable operation, provided proper cleaning between range trips. Unfortunately, my supply of 9mm is far less than optimal, and at least 700 rounds of it is cheap Aguila including 115 grain. I have evaluated what I would need to do to establish trust in this P30 after a malfunction in the first range trip: I would need to fire another 1900 rounds without a stoppage before I could trust it. I could buy a couple of hundred more rounds of 9mm at inflated prices to have the 1900 rounds I'd need, but it'd be a risk shooting it all to verify carry reliability in one new pistol.

I'm trying to determine whether I should give this pistol another chance, or if I should save the 9mm ammunition for training with an already-proven reliable 9mm; my G19. I do really like the P30. With most of my experience being on an HK45C, staying with a very similar pistol in 9mm is appealing to me, as is the DA/SA action. However, I have no interest in keeping it if I can't establish a baseline reliability that I would trust, and the cost/value of 9mm ammunition it would take to do so is quite substantial. If it had more stoppages during the vetting process, I would feel like I just wasted a lot of precious ammunition for nothing. Am I being too harsh on the P30 for having one malfunction? Should I attempt to shoot another 1900 rounds through it to build confidence, or should I sell it and devote my 9mm focus on the Glock?

[ViniVidivici]

Run the 19 for now, it's vetted.

Don't sell the HK, ammo prices will go down eventually, and you can continue to vett it.

Don't you reload? All serious shooters should, I think.

I don't see that one malf as a big deal, especially considering it was a ten rounder, but if you don't feel sure, run the 19 for now.

ETA: on the philosophy of blowing away copious amounts of ammo to proof a gun; what I do is, rather than just push hundreds of rounds through, I make sure I'm training as I do it. Shoot drills, do draws, SOTM, low-light, etc., everything I'd normally do shooting, so the ammo doesn't seem like so much of a "waste".

[SecondsCount]

I would trust the reputation of a P30 over that of Winchester ammo. Keep shooting the P30 and if the problem persists then I would send it back to HK.

[BillSWPA]

Reliability is the single non-negotiable characteristic of any piece of defensive gear. If you question the reliability of a gun, carry one you trust instead.

With current ammo prices - assuming you can find ammo at all, I would expend ammo very judiciously until things improve.


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[pangloss]

I wouldn't bother trying to change carry platforms until ammo is available at lower prices. However, if any 9mm pistol is good to go right out of the box, I think it'd be the G19 or the P30. I wouldn't worry much about carrying either one with full cap mags loaded Gold Dots or HSTs.

[SwampDweller]

Run the 19 for now, it's vetted.
ETA: on the philosophy of blowing away copious amounts of ammo to proof a gun; what I do is, rather than just push hundreds of rounds through, I make sure I'm training as I do it. Shoot drills, do draws, SOTM, low-light, etc., everything I'd normally do shooting, so the ammo doesn't seem like so much of a "waste".

Fortunately that's one good thing. I am able to shoot at a range where I have access to all the steel plate racks and IPSC targets on stands as I want. If nothing else I did improve my speed at the plate rack and with transitions when I shot last weekend. I plan to go out again on Sunday.

[Vista461]

I would trust the reputation of a P30 over that of Winchester ammo. Keep shooting the P30 and if the problem persists then I would send it back to HK.

^this.
I have very low confidence in Winchester ammo. It gave me the only malfunction in my old 4003 that would literally feed empty cases. I won’t even buy it anymore.

[SwampDweller]

^this.
I have very low confidence in Winchester ammo. It gave me the only malfunction in my old 4003 that would literally feed empty cases. I won’t even buy it anymore.

I had found this to be the case with Winchester White Box 115gr, but this is the first time I've had any problems using 124gr NATO. I figured the QC would be better with the NATO ammo assuming it really is made to NATO specs. I was using that because from my understanding P30s like hotter ammo.

[Bigghoss]

One malfunction isn't enough info to go on. Why it happened is as important as it happening at all. Was it a bad round or a problem with the gun? If you don't know the answer, it's probably the ammo unless you can tell otherwise.

[SwampDweller]

I realized that I didn't even post the picture of the stoppage last night. Here it is
61538

My thoughts on what constitutes a reliable pistol and how to go about vetting it has been undoubtedly colored by a 2012 post by ToddG:https://pistol-training.com/archives/6837
It seems he was more apt to blame the pistol out of an abundance of caution. Given the apparent shady reputation of Winchester ammo including NATO, and using 10 round magazines loaded with +1 in the chamber, maybe it is too early to blame the pistol.

[OlongJohnson]

Any time you have a failure to extract or eject, preserve the case and inspect it later under good lighting. There are often witness marks on it that will allow you to figure out what went wrong. It's entirely possible the case was badly mismachined, but you don't know that if you don't keep it and inspect it.

[GyroF-16]

Looks like the slide didn’t come back hard enough (or far enough?) to extract and eject the case.
Could be a weak powder charge, or extra drag on the underside of the slide with the 10-rd mag topped up.

I don’t have experience with 10-rd HK mags. If they’re really stiff, maybe that contributed.

In general, I trust the reliability of HK products. I’ve got close to 20,000 rounds through 4 different USP Compacts, in both .40 and 9mm, with exactly one malfunction (with purple-cased Winchester training .40 cal ammo). I know that doesn’t translate directly to the P30, but maybe it’s a helpful data point.

My thoughts - if the P30 is attractive from the familiarity and performance standpoint, put the 10-rounders aside for now and keep training with it. One malfunction is an oddity. Two is a pattern. Until you have a pattern, go with the gun you think you can be most effective with.

[SwampDweller]

Looks like the slide didn’t come back hard enough (or far enough?) to extract and eject the case.
Could be a weak powder charge, or extra drag on the underside of the slide with the 10-rd mag topped up.

I don’t have experience with 10-rd HK mags. If they’re really stiff, maybe that contributed.

In general, I trust the reliability of HK products. I’ve got close to 20,000 rounds through 4 different USP Compacts, in both .40 and 9mm, with exactly one malfunction (with purple-cased Winchester training .40 cal ammo). I know that doesn’t translate directly to the P30, but maybe it’s a helpful data point.

My thoughts - if the P30 is attractive from the familiarity and performance standpoint, put the 10-rounders aside for now and keep training with it. One malfunction is an oddity. Two is a pattern. Until you have a pattern, go with the gun you think you can be most effective with.

The 10 round mags were indeed quite stiff. In hindsight, I wish that I hadn't loaded them up fully, chambered the +1, and then topped off the mag to rule that possibility out.

[SwampDweller]

Any time you have a failure to extract or eject, preserve the case and inspect it later under good lighting. There are often witness marks on it that will allow you to figure out what went wrong. It's entirely possible the case was badly mismachined, but you don't know that if you don't keep it and inspect it.
Unfortunately I did not hold onto the casing, though I did inspect it at the time and couldn't see anything particularly wrong with it.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

The 10 round mags were indeed quite stiff. In hindsight, I wish that I hadn't loaded them up fully, chambered the +1, and then topped off the mag to rule that possibility out.

When your 17s come in the mail try this:
1. Load a round into the chamber
2. Fully load the 10rd mag, rack it. Pay attention to how hard it is to rack.
3. Do the same with the 17rd mag.

If the 10rd requires a lot more force than the 17rd, it is likely you found your culprit. If thats the case, I would use the 17rds for carry and 10rds for range only, which I am guessing is what you would be doing anyway.

I have not seen the same QC issues with Win NATO as I have Win WWB, but they surely could have a bad round and it wouldnt surprise me. ESPECIALLY if it was made in 2020. With the current insane demand for ammo, I can only imagine EVERY manufacturer is pushing their equipment and employees to the edge to produce every case they can.

[JonInWA]

I'm wary enough ot Winchester ammunition to totally avoid their generic/ValuPack ammunition. Federal/American Eagle/Sellier & Bellot are far better choices in my expereince.

Best, Jon

[SwampDweller]

When your 17s come in the mail try this:
1. Load a round into the chamber
2. Fully load the 10rd mag, rack it. Pay attention to how hard it is to rack.
3. Do the same with the 17rd mag.

If the 10rd requires a lot more force than the 17rd, it is likely you found your culprit. If thats the case, I would use the 17rds for carry and 10rds for range only, which I am guessing is what you would be doing anyway.

I have not seen the same QC issues with Win NATO as I have Win WWB, but they surely could have a bad round and it wouldnt surprise me. ESPECIALLY if it was made in 2020. With the current insane demand for ammo, I can only imagine EVERY manufacturer is pushing their equipment and employees to the edge to produce every case they can.
The 17rd mags arrived the other day, and when I get home in about 20 minutes I am going to try this.

Regarding the ammo, there was something I thought was odd: the powder from all of it left quite a bit of unburnt powder deposited into the action of the gun. Like, more than I remember seeing from this ammo before. Kind of like what I used to see with Winchester White Box 115gr, but even more than that. And yes, this NATO ammo had 2020 headstampings.

[SwampDweller]

I loaded both a 17rd mag and a 10rd mag, and one in the chamber. With both mags fully loaded, I racked the slide to feel how much drag there was on the underside. They felt very similar. Maybe there's a difference, but it's difficult to tell. If anything the 10 rounders were easier to load, but they've also been loaded/unloaded many times whereas the 17 round mags are brand new.

[Exiledviking]

Have you cleaned and lubed the P30?

[SwampDweller]

Have you cleaned and lubed the P30?

Yes, I did that the night before I shot it.

[Exiledviking]

I had found this to be the case with Winchester White Box 115gr, but this is the first time I've had any problems using 124gr NATO. I figured the QC would be better with the NATO ammo assuming it really is made to NATO specs. I was using that because from my understanding P30s like hotter ammo.From what I experienced and read, Winchester ammo QC has been deteriorating over years.
I would, in this case from what's known, blame it on the ammo.

[SwampDweller]

From what I experienced and read, Winchester ammo QC has been deteriorating over years.
I would, in this case from what's known, blame it on the ammo.

My primary preferred practice ammunition for vetting a new pistol or even practice with a proven pistol, is Speer Lawman 124gr TMJ (and AE 124gr after that). Since that is now going for $30/box online with limits on purchasing (and the gun shop I work at can't even get it unless our distributor reps take pity on us even in the best of times), I'm stuck with the 1200-ish rounds of 9mm I have on hand. 600 rounds of it is Aguila 115gr, 100rds is Aguila 124gr, 200 rounds is American Eagle 124gr, 150 rounds is Blazer Brass 124gr, and then about 150-ish rounds of random assortments.

This is why I am hesitant to continue bothering to use my ammo on the P30, as even if I did use up the rest of my 9mm, some of it is rather low quality and it would be difficult to tell whether any malfunctions would be from the ammo or from the pistol.

[GyroF-16]

My primary preferred practice ammunition for vetting a new pistol or even practice with a proven pistol, is Speer Lawman 124gr TMJ (and AE 124gr after that). Since that is now going for $30/box online with limits on purchasing (and the gun shop I work at can't even get it unless our distributor reps take pity on us even in the best of times), I'm stuck with the 1200-ish rounds of 9mm I have on hand. 600 rounds of it is Aguila 115gr, 100rds is Aguila 124gr, 200 rounds is American Eagle 124gr, 150 rounds is Blazer Brass 124gr, and then about 150-ish rounds of random assortments.

This is why I am hesitant to continue bothering to use my ammo on the P30, as even if I did use up the rest of my 9mm, some of it is rather low quality and it would be difficult to tell whether any malfunctions would be from the ammo or from the pistol.

Well, if you’re still considering using the P30, at a minimum you’ll want to vet those new 17 rd mags. If you choose to do that, I’d use at least 100-200 rounds of what you consider the best quality stuff you’ve got. To really rule out at least bad case sizing (which could effect extraction) you could “plunk test” those rounds in the barrel (disassembled of course) the night before.

[Mark D]

My primary preferred practice ammunition for vetting a new pistol or even practice with a proven pistol, is Speer Lawman 124gr TMJ (and AE 124gr after that). Since that is now going for $30/box online with limits on purchasing (and the gun shop I work at can't even get it unless our distributor reps take pity on us even in the best of times), I'm stuck with the 1200-ish rounds of 9mm I have on hand. 600 rounds of it is Aguila 115gr, 100rds is Aguila 124gr, 200 rounds is American Eagle 124gr, 150 rounds is Blazer Brass 124gr, and then about 150-ish rounds of random assortments.

This is why I am hesitant to continue bothering to use my ammo on the P30, as even if I did use up the rest of my 9mm, some of it is rather low quality and it would be difficult to tell whether any malfunctions would be from the ammo or from the pistol.

I suggest that the year 2020 is a poor time to vet a new platform. You have pistols that work, why not just roll them until the ammo drought is over.

[SwampDweller]

I suggest that the year 2020 is a poor time to vet a new platform. You have pistols that work, why not just roll them until the ammo drought is over.

I suppose that's what I'll have to do. I was hoping to have a vetted DA/SA 9mm as a new carry gun soon because it's what I'm used to with the HK45C, but at this point it probably makes more sense for me to just either continue to carry the 45C or switch to the Glock 19, both of which have been well-proven.

[Rex G]

I suppose that's what I'll have to do. I was hoping to have a vetted DA/SA 9mm as a new carry gun soon because it's what I'm used to with the HK45C, but at this point it probably makes more sense for me to just either continue to carry the 45C or switch to the Glock 19, both of which have been well-proven.

Is .45 ACP ammo so rare that continuing to carry your HK45C is problematic? I realize that some of the prominent internet sources seem to be perpetually out-of-stock, but some local places, that ration/limit the amount sold to any one person on any one business day, often manage to keep some few of just about everything on the shelves.

There is nothing wrong with a G19, if it is performing “acceptably.” If the worry is a lack of “good hits,” well, dress around the HK. Is it substantially larger than a typical duty pistol? I have dressed-around full-sized SIG P220 and 1911 pistols, and fatter-butt P229 pistols, for years at a time.

Edited to add: Try experimenting with such things as trigger finger position, and variations in support hand position, with the G19. Slight variations in such things can make a difference in accuracy, for some folks, with the G19. (I appreciate the better stability and consistency, with longer-gripped Glocks.)

[SwampDweller]

Is .45 ACP ammo so rare that continuing to carry your HK45C is problematic? I realize that some of the prominent internet sources seem to be perpetually out-of-stock, but some local places, that ration/limit the amount sold to any one person on any one business day, often manage to keep some few of just about everything on the shelves.

There is nothing wrong with a G19, if it is performing “acceptably.” If the worry is a lack of “good hits,” well, dress around the HK. Is it substantially larger than a typical duty pistol? I have dressed-around full-sized SIG P220 and 1911 pistols, and fatter-butt P229 pistols, for years at a time.

Edited to add: Try experimenting with such things as trigger finger position, and variations in support hand position, with the G19. Slight variations in such things can make a difference in accuracy, for some folks, with the G19. (I appreciate the better stability and consistency, with longer-gripped Glocks.)
I have more .45 than 9mm ammo, and I have shot the HK45C more than any other pistol. My reason for switching is not because of .45 ammo price/availability. If anything .45 is the same price or cheaper than 9mm from what I’m seeing. I’m considering switching to a 9mm for higher capacity, lower recoil, potentially faster and more accurate follow up shots, and cheaper ammo in normal times. It is a switch I’ve been contemplating for some time after studying DocGKR’s knowledge and observations on the subject. It sounds like .45 doesn’t give an advantage over 9mm using good ammo.

I was unable to go to the range again yesterday since thunderstorms were blowing through, but I plan to explore my abilities with the Glock 19 more. Perhaps the practical move would be to dedicate my efforts towards mastering the 19, sell the P30, and use the money for a backup/trainer G19.

[Duelist]

I have more .45 than 9mm ammo, and I have shot the HK45C more than any other pistol. My reason for switching is not because of .45 ammo price/availability. If anything .45 is the same price or cheaper than 9mm from what I’m seeing. I’m considering switching to a 9mm for higher capacity, lower recoil, potentially faster and more accurate follow up shots, and cheaper ammo in normal times. It is a switch I’ve been contemplating for some time after studying DocGKR’s knowledge and observations on the subject. It sounds like .45 doesn’t give an advantage over 9mm using good ammo.

I was unable to go to the range again yesterday since thunderstorms were blowing through, but I plan to explore my abilities with the Glock 19 more. Perhaps the practical move would be to dedicate my efforts towards mastering the 19, sell the P30, and use the money for a backup/trainer G19.

Since the odds of getting more 9mm practice ammo for either of your pistols at a reasonable price in the near-term are poor, it might be better to just stick with the .45 for carry, hold onto both 9mms, and wait to make up your mind until practice ammo prices come back to reality.

But two G19s is a good plan, if you decide that you are good with the operating system.

[psalms144.1]

Since the odds of getting more 9mm practice ammo for either of your pistols at a reasonable price in the near-term are poor, it might be better to just stick with the .45 for carry, hold onto both 9mms, and wait to make up your mind until practice ammo prices come back to reality.I've reached this point, even shooting issued ammunition. We're down to about 200 rounds for our three man office of 9mm FMJ, and maybe 1,000 rounds of very hard to replace JHP. On the other hand, I've got access to probably 3,000 rounds of .45 - because I'm the only person who shoots one (or three), and do most of my training with 9mm for ease of joint pain. Might be switching to shooting the 1911 full time at this point until the ammo situation unfucks itself (if that ever happens).

[Duelist]

I've reached this point, even shooting issued ammunition. We're down to about 200 rounds for our three man office of 9mm FMJ, and maybe 1,000 rounds of very hard to replace JHP. On the other hand, I've got access to probably 3,000 rounds of .45 - because I'm the only person who shoots one (or three), and do most of my training with 9mm for ease of joint pain. Might be switching to shooting the 1911 full time at this point until the ammo situation unfucks itself (if that ever happens).

I’m only shooting reloads and .22. I was about to buy a couple of cases of 9mm when Covid drove prices up. Got an adequate amount of JHP and about a case and a half of FMJ, but hesitate to shoot any b/c replacing it isn’t going to be as easy or inexpensive as I’d like.

[TGS]

SwampDweller

The HK P30 tends to have a break-in period wherein it needs strong ammo to reliably cycle for about 500-1000 rounds. For a decade, the common advice on HKPRO is that the pistol needs strong NATO or +p during this time until the springs break-in.

So, I wouldn't be concerned. Like others, I share a distaste for Winchester's QC as of late and have had my share of problems. Barring further failures, I would simply chalk this up to the pistol having tight springs, the mag springs on the 10-rounders being quite stout, and (due to Winchester's QC as of late) the possibility of this particular round having a weaker-ish charge.

A little trifecta, if you will. I wouldn't consider any modern HK vetted until 1000 rounds in simply because of how tight their springs tend to be when new....I think smart people call it "tolerance stacking", I don't know, I just know they're one of the few pistols that actually benefit from a break-in. So, don't worry, just power through that break-in period.

If failures continue to happen, I would be suspect of the extractor. If it's not radiused correctly this will happen, and in the rare occasion that an HK is a lemon, it tends to be the extractor that is out-of-spec.