Purchased a possible custom 1911, need help I.D’ing

[ralph]

Purchased a pistol today, from a friend who is selling. I need some help from the 1911folks, I think I have a older, custom 1911, built on a Govt model Colt. Pistols front sight extends past the muzzle about an inch. Rear sight is adjustable, and marked Bo-Mar. Has a set of target grips that have an adjustable hand rest and a very large thumb rest on the left grip. I’m pretty sure this setup for one hand shooting. Where it gets really interesting is inside the slide, on the third rail, it’s marked I.E. Clark, Shreveport LA, along with what I think is a build number, and a date 10/61.. I understand the I.E. could be J.E. But it sure looks like an I.. Pistol also has stippling on the front strap.. Anybody know what this pistol is?

[Greg]

https://clarkcustomguns.com/


James E. Clark

[farscott]

Sounds like a Jim Clark pistol built for Bullseye with a BoMar extendable front sight for a longer sight radius and better practical accuracy. https://clarkcustomguns.com/about/

Pictures would be appreciated. Does it have the famed "tiger tooth" stippling?

[revchuck38]

Is it .45 ACP or .38 Special? He made an unknown number of .38 Specials for folks who didn't like S&W M52s.

The rear sight on my bullseye/UIT Sport Pistol Ruger MKII is the factory base and the replacement leaf and adjustment mechanism he designed.

[ralph]

Sounds like a Jim Clark pistol built for Bullseye with a BoMar extendable front sight for a longer sight radius and better practical accuracy. https://clarkcustomguns.com/about/

Pictures would be appreciated. Does it have the famed "tiger tooth" stippling?

Yes, I’m assuming that’s what’s on it, very nicely done I might add. I would love to post pics, However, posting pics on this site is beyond my skill set. I could email someone pics if they’d want to post them.. Almost forgot, this pistol is in .45acp..

[ralph]

Is it .45 ACP or .38 Special? He made an unknown number of .38 Specials for folks who didn't like S&W M52s.

The rear sight on my bullseye/UIT Sport Pistol Ruger MKII is the factory base and the replacement leaf and adjustment mechanism he designed.

It’s .45acp.

[farscott]

Yes, I’m assuming that’s what’s on it, very nicely done I might add. I would love to post pics, However, posting pics on this site is beyond my skill set. I could email someone pics if they’d want to post them.. Almost forgot, this pistol is in .45acp..

Posting pics is easy. In the reply box, go to the "Manage Attachments" box and click it. That opens a dialog window. You can add an attachment by clicking on the "Add Files" button and selecting the picture on the device and choosing "Upload".

[ralph]

Ok, here goes614596146061461

[ralph]

I’ll admit, I’m not digging the grips, and I wouldn’t mind changing the front sight. Anybody know how they come off? Unless this a valuable pistol as is, I’d like to remove it. It seems to me, that it’s asking to get broken off, the fact that it hasn’t in the last 50or so years, is a miracle in itself..

[rainman]

I would contact Clark Custom before doing ANY modifications, and try to check the history on that piece. You may well have a 'time capsule' on your hands, and the work of some of these craftsman may never be seen again.


-Rainman

[SW CQB 45]

you are missing a grip screw

but the grips and bomar rear will come off now the extended competition front sight is either swaged or soldered on.

I agree to contact Clark before you move fwd with anything.

A pic of the top of the front sight and a field strip image of the inside of the slide under the front sight will help ID how its attached.

I bet its a tack driver.

[jlp]

Post this on 1911addicts.com they can give you all will ever want to know. DON’T mess with it!! It’s pretty amazing!

[SW CQB 45]

this should help

https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/another-rare-1911-an-original-38-amu-sold-to-gill-hebard-sent-to-j-e-clark-and-back-to-hebard.57153/

[ralph]

I would contact Clark Custom before doing ANY modifications, and try to check the history on that piece. You may well have a 'time capsule' on your hands, and the work of some of these craftsman may never be seen again.


-Rainman

I was planning on calling them tomorrow, and see if I could get any more information about it, before I did anything. From what I’ve read you’re exactly right, I’m not sure, but I suspect that this pistol was built in the very early 60’s, and that’s about the right time frame for James Clark. I’ve already ordered a set of LOK grips for it as well as new screws, the grip screws in the pistol now, are pretty chewed up, plus, one is missing. The grip screw bushings are all in good shape. Once I get the grips, I’ll run a few rounds through it, and see how it shoots..

[ralph]

this should help

https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/another-rare-1911-an-original-38-amu-sold-to-gill-hebard-sent-to-j-e-clark-and-back-to-hebard.57153/

THANK YOU!!! The info in that article confirmed what I suspected, that this pistol was built in October 1961, by James E. Clark.. Now I’m starting to get excited about shooting it..

[revchuck38]

ralph - If you want to shoot it, I recommend you find some softball (185-grain JSWC) for it or load some ammo to those specs (185- or 200-grain LSWC at about 750-775 fps). It's unlikely that it's set up for hardball or equivalent loads.

[SW CQB 45]

if you close to Victoria, Texas..... I have some ammo for testing

https://i.imgur.com/w78X0NQh.jpg

[ralph]

ralph - If you want to shoot it, I recommend you find some softball (185-grain JSWC) for it or load some ammo to those specs (185- or 200-grain LSWC at about 750-775 fps). It's unlikely that it's set up for hardball or equivalent loads.

It just so happens that I have about 2000, 200gr plated RN bullets and a Dillon 650, and a 8lb jug of Bullseye..

[revchuck38]

It just so happens that I have about 2000, 200gr plated RN bullets and a Dillon 650, and a 8lb jug of Bullseye..

Oh, yeah! :)

[ralph]

let me ask you guys one other thing. what do you think it's worth? The more I find out about it, the more I'm inclined to keep it as is. About all I'm going to do is change the grips. I'm thinking it may be worth more than I paid for it.

[farscott]

The only things I would change on that gun are the recoil spring and, if needed, the mainspring. It is possible the gun is setup for soft target loads. I would start with a standard 16# recoil spring and compare it to the spring installed. If the recoil spring in the pistol has a much lower rate, checking the mainspring is then needed. Or you can shoot powder puff loads in it. Say 230-grain at 650 fps or so or the Federal 185-grain Gold Medal wadcutter load (185-grain at 770 fps). Change the recoil spring and mainspring to 1911-standard to shoot hardball.

As far as value, that one is hard. While Jim Clark is a name smith and the pistol has historic value being built on a Colt commercial 1911A1, Bullseye is not the sport it once was. The modifications lock the pistol into target shooting. The number of shooters is down and the rules have been changed to open up the sport to more pistols and to optics. A new RRA Bullseye Wadcutter pistol with modern cosmetics/features (checkering, beavertail, sight rib) and fit is about $2500. I would guess that pistol would sell for about $1000 locally IF one could find a Bullseye shooter or a Clark collector.

[Rex G]

Deleted. (I had thought this one got lost in the ether, so re-did it. Better version, below.)

[Rex G]

let me ask you guys one other thing. what do you think it's worth? The more I find out about it, the more I'm inclined to keep it as is. About all I'm going to do is change the grips. I'm thinking it may be worth more than I paid for it.

You have an iconic piece of firearms history. I’d say that it is priceless. Of course, there is a “market value,” but that varies with trends, geography, and economic conditions. 2020 is very much a down time for high-end 1911 pistols. This would not be a good time to flip it, if that is what you have in mind.

[Rex G]

Here is a Clark Custom 1911, at a dealer. Excellent condition, by their rating system. ~$2K.

Their archives can be searched, too, for similar firearms sold in the past. They have previously sold a number of Clark Custom firearms.

[ralph]

You have an iconic piece of firearms history. I’d say that it is priceless. Of course, there is a “market value,” but that varies with trends, geography, and economic conditions. 2020 is very much a down time for high-end 1911 pistols. This would not be a good time to flip it, if that is what you have in mind.

Don’t worry, I’m going to keep it. As of right now the only thing I’m going to change is the grips, and the grip screws. I contacted Clark Custom, they don’t have this one in their computer files, but they still have paper records, it is definitely a J.E.Clark built pistol. Hopefully, they can dig up some history on this pistol. In my e-mail, I also asked if they could tell me what spring rates they’d recommend for shooting ball, and what springs I’d need to change..I’ve got a feeling that this will be a joy to shoot.. I’m going to take my time, and make sure this is set up right.

ETA:
For those of you who are curious, I paid $500 for it, I think I did ok..

[fatdog]

I had those same Clark grips on my bullseye gun circa '85 when I started shooting "2700" as we called the game back then. Mine was a Remington Rand CMP pistol that had been built with a "Micro" brand bushing, barrel, sights, etc. by one of Clark's competitors. I ran 185gr cast SWC behind 3.5gr of Bullseye for those softball loads. That required a 10# recoil spring.

By the early 90's bullseye was dying fast and the action shooting stuff, IPSC (later USPSA) was exploding. Not having the funds in those days to buy a second gun I had mine converted to a "hardball gun" by a local gunsmith, although it retains that original barrel to this day as a USPSA single stack gun.

I am afraid I seriously doubt the market value or demand for those guns now, even though it is a Jim Clark build. Bullseye is an essentially dead sport at the club level now. Yes I know they still draw hundreds for Camp Perry every year but find me a club level match anywhere with more than a dozen competitors this weekend.

I would not criticize the decision to keep it as it is for historical value or nostalgia. Nor would I criticize the decision to pull the unnecessary parts and re-spring/re-sight it as a viable single stack gun. It is possible to do the latter and come out with a very accurate gun that can shoot full power ammo....mine is such now. I am betting that a Jim Clark built bullseye gun reborn as a hardball gun would indeed be a tack driver in terms of accuracy.

[farscott]

Wow, $500 for a Jim Clark, Sr. pistol. That is a great deal but reinforces how soft the Bullseye pistol market is. If the pistol was in the same condition that it left the Colt factory, it would be worth three times as much. Customized by a recognized master, and it dropped in value by two-thirds.

[DDTSGM]

Wow, $500 for a Jim Clark, Sr. pistol. That is a great deal but reinforces how soft the Bullseye pistol market is. If the pistol was in the same condition that it left the Colt factory, it would be worth three times as much. Customized by a recognized master, and it dropped in value by two-thirds.

Bullseye is indeed dying off. I don't know if we have enough time in on the shooting sports to say that things are cyclical and that pistol shooting sports with the sole emphasis on precision marksmanship will make a comeback.

It could be that bullseye and match rifle make a comeback under a Biden Administration, let's hope we don't find out.

[awp_101]

ETA:
For those of you who are curious, I paid $500 for it, I think I did ok..
It would have cost me another $275. $250 deductible at the ER to get my shoulder back in place, $20 to replace the jeans after tearing the pocket getting the wallet out and $5 to replace the wallet itself after tearing it open...:D

[ralph]

I had those same Clark grips on my bullseye gun circa '85 when I started shooting "2700" as we called the game back then. Mine was a Remington Rand CMP pistol that had been built with a "Micro" brand bushing, barrel, sights, etc. by one of Clark's competitors. I ran 185gr cast SWC behind 3.5gr of Bullseye for those softball loads. That required a 10# recoil spring.

By the early 90's bullseye was dying fast and the action shooting stuff, IPSC (later USPSA) was exploding. Not having the funds in those days to buy a second gun I had mine converted to a "hardball gun" by a local gunsmith, although it retains that original barrel to this day as a USPSA single stack gun.

I am afraid I seriously doubt the market value or demand for those guns now, even though it is a Jim Clark build. Bullseye is an essentially dead sport at the club level now. Yes I know they still draw hundreds for Camp Perry every year but find me a club level match anywhere with more than a dozen competitors this weekend.

I would not criticize the decision to keep it as it is for historical value or nostalgia. Nor would I criticize the decision to pull the unnecessary parts and re-spring/re-sight it as a viable single stack gun. It is possible to do the latter and come out with a very accurate gun that can shoot full power ammo....mine is such now. I am betting that a Jim Clark built bullseye gun reborn as a hardball gun would indeed be a tack driver in terms of accuracy.

That’s a viable option. I understand it’s somewhat of a time capsule,so to speak, resighting, and respringing the gun to run ball ammo is very attractive to me. I’ve no doubt that the end result would be stupid accurate.I did discover an issue with it, and I’ll probably have to send it back to Clark..When dropping the slide using the slide stop, I get hammer follow through..Given the pistols age, unknown round count, this isn’t entirely unexpected.. I’m going to wait and see what Clark has to say about my inquiry regarding this pistol, and then make a decision.

[okie john]

When dropping the slide using the slide stop, I get hammer follow through.

RED FLAG. Send it back to Clark and have that issue fixed before you shoot it.

I had a couple of Clark softball guns when I was shooting bullseye. The sear and hammer are definitely worn, possibly enough to get double-fire or get slam fires until the mag is empty. If you simply must shoot it, then only put one round in the mag and hold the hammer spur down as the slide goes forward.


Okie John

[fatdog]

Wow, got me thinking. I sent mine off to Novak's back in the early 90's. Cannot remember the gunsmith's name. but one of their really good 1911 guys did it for me and I know that guy was killed in an automobile accident a few years later.

I remember him telling me he lapped the barrel/bushing fit just a tiny bit as part of the work because he was afraid it was built too tight to be a reliable IPSC gun. It has run flawlessly, I cannot tell that the accuracy really suffered, I think he knew what he was doing.

[TOTS]

That’s a viable option. I understand it’s somewhat of a time capsule,so to speak, resighting, and respringing the gun to run ball ammo is very attractive to me. I’ve no doubt that the end result would be stupid accurate.I did discover an issue with it, and I’ll probably have to send it back to Clark..When dropping the slide using the slide stop, I get hammer follow through..Given the pistols age, unknown round count, this isn’t entirely unexpected.. I’m going to wait and see what Clark has to say about my inquiry regarding this pistol, and then make a decision.

And be advised, it’s considered a no-no with 1911s to drop the slide on an empty chamber. Possible to ruin a good trigger job with minimal hammer/sear engagement and actually cause those kinds of problems.

If that’s what you were doing. If you already knew this, consider me posting this for others reading this post.

[Rocky Racoon]

Wow, $500 for a Jim Clark, Sr. pistol. That is a great deal but reinforces how soft the Bullseye pistol market is. If the pistol was in the same condition that it left the Colt factory, it would be worth three times as much. Customized by a recognized master, and it dropped in value by two-thirds.

Not really. Sounds like seller didn’t know what he had. The Bullseye market may be soft, but this isn’t proof.

[ralph]

RED FLAG. Send it back to Clark and have that issue fixed before you shoot it.

I had a couple of Clark softball guns when I was shooting bullseye. The sear and hammer are definitely worn, possibly enough to get double-fire or get slam fires until the mag is empty. If you simply must shoot it, then only put one round in the mag and hold the hammer spur down as the slide goes forward.


Okie John

I did shoot 3 rnds through it just now..it fed and fired all three with out issues, still, it’s going back to Clark.. I was shooting at a pop/ soda can at about 10yds. Had no problem hitting the can, pistol felt like it was very soft shooting. I’m now thinking I’ll get the hammer issues fixed, and have Clark go over it and see if anything else needs fixed, fix it, and otherwise leave it alone.. It should make a fun target gun to fool around with. I have plenty of other pistols for carrying. I figure that anytime you can pick up a pistol you never shot before, (I have shot 1911’s in the past, but it’s been at least 10yrs since I shot one last.) with no grips on it, and hit what you’re aiming at with no problem, this thing has a lot of potential..

[ralph]

And be advised, it’s considered a no-no with 1911s to drop the slide on an empty chamber. Possible to ruin a good trigger job with minimal hammer/sear engagement and actually cause those kinds of problems.

If that’s what you were doing. If you already knew this, consider me posting this for others reading this post.

Thanks, I’m aware of that, but, I figure the damage is already done, I’m guessing it’s been this way for awhile. I’ll just have to get it fixed.. I think it’s worth sinking a few bucks into..

[ralph]

Not really. Sounds like seller didn’t know what he had. The Bullseye market may be soft, but this isn’t proof.


I don’t think he did, but then, neither did I until I got it home, field stripped it, saw the name on the slide, and started connecting the dots, digging around on the internet, and from what you guys have told me.. looks like I may have lucked out for once..

[BN]

I sent mine off to Novak's back in the early 90's. Cannot remember the gunsmith's name. but one of their really good 1911 guys did it for me and I know that guy was killed in an automobile accident a few years later.

Joe Bonar. Super nice guy. I used to shoot USPSA with him at Fort Harmar.

Ralph, that's a nice piece of history. I'd probably also re-sight it, fix the hammer follow add new springs and shoot it. :)

[okie john]

I did shoot 3 rnds through it just now..it fed and fired all three with out issues, still, it’s going back to Clark.. I was shooting at a pop/ soda can at about 10yds. Had no problem hitting the can, pistol felt like it was very soft shooting. I’m now thinking I’ll get the hammer issues fixed, and have Clark go over it and see if anything else needs fixed, fix it, and otherwise leave it alone.. It should make a fun target gun to fool around with. I have plenty of other pistols for carrying. I figure that anytime you can pick up a pistol you never shot before, (I have shot 1911’s in the past, but it’s been at least 10yrs since I shot one last.) with no grips on it, and hit what you’re aiming at with no problem, this thing has a lot of potential..

I've had one double on me. Having Clark go through it is wise. Old bullseye guys have the trigger and sear redone as soon as the hammer follows that first time. Most outdoor bullseye ranges have holes in the overhead cover because the second round launches at about a 45-degree angle.


Okie John

[ralph]

It appears that I was wrong about the hammer follow through..From what Logan Clark told me in a E-Mail, the reason I’d get hammer follow through from time to time, is because it has a steel trigger and because of the way they did trigger jobs back then.. The correct way to charge the pistol as I understand it, is to load a mag into the gun, retract the slide, and lock it. Press the trigger and hold it, release slide while holding the trigger down, The hammer should stay in place (which it does) It also appears that one can simply load a mag into the pistol, hold the trigger down, rack the slide, and again the hammer stays in place.. So it appears that there is really nothing wrong with the pistol, other than loading it is a little different than what we do now. I was also advised to leave the front sight alone, because replacing it would be costly.. Logan Clark also told me that this was probably a hardball gun, and set up for 230gr ammo. I have some LOK grips coming for it, and they should be here Saturday, I want to run a few rounds through it, and then send it back to Clark for a tune up, that’ll cost $300, but, they’ll go through the gun from stem to stern, and it should be good to go, and I’ll have a true, custom 1911, and have about $800 total in it...

As far as any other additional info on the pistol Logan also informed me that their records only go back to 1982..So, any info on this pistol, has been lost to time...

[farscott]

It appears that I was wrong about the hammer follow through..From what Logan Clark told me in a E-Mail, the reason I’d get hammer follow through from time to time, is because it has a steel trigger and because of the way they did trigger jobs back then.. The correct way to charge the pistol as I understand it, is to load a mag into the gun, retract the slide, and lock it. Press the trigger and hold it, release slide while holding the trigger down, The hammer should stay in place (which it does) It also appears that one can simply load a mag into the pistol, hold the trigger down, rack the slide, and again the hammer stays in place.. So it appears that there is really nothing wrong with the pistol, other than loading it is a little different than what we do now. I was also advised to leave the front sight alone, because replacing it would be costly.. Logan Clark also told me that this was probably a hardball gun, and set up for 230gr ammo. I have some LOK grips coming for it, and they should be here Saturday, I want to run a few rounds through it, and then send it back to Clark for a tune up, that’ll cost $300, but, they’ll go through the gun from stem to stern, and it should be good to go, and I’ll have a true, custom 1911, and have about $800 total in it...

As far as any other additional info on the pistol Logan also informed me that their records only go back to 1982..So, any info on this pistol, has been lost to time...

The charging method described by Logan Clark is historically accurate. The steel trigger plays a role but is not the root cause. Back then, the hammer/sear engagement was minimal in Bullseye pistols. That being said, the loading method is somewhat notorious for causing negligent discharges. The state of the art has passed by, and that method of loading the pistol is not recommended. If you want to shoot it, send it to a good 1911 smith as it needs a new hammer and sear. Greg Derr of Derr Precision would be a good choice. Mr. Derr may be able to source an original Colt hammer of the era. https://www.derrprecision.com/50s-decade-retro-mod-colt/

[ralph]

The charging method described by Logan Clark is historically accurate. The steel trigger plays a role but is not the root cause. Back then, the hammer/sear engagement was minimal in Bullseye pistols. That being said, the loading method is somewhat notorious for causing negligent discharges. The state of the art has passed by, and that method of loading the pistol is not recommended. If you want to shoot it, send it to a good 1911 smith as it needs a new hammer and sear. Greg Derr of Derr Precision would be a good choice. Mr. Derr may be able to source an original Colt hammer of the era. https://www.derrprecision.com/50s-decade-retro-mod-colt/

As I mentioned in my post above, I do plan on sending it back to Clark for a tune up, and have them go through it. I’m sure they could replace the hammer,sear, trigger, and do a safer more modern trigger job.. I’m not too worried about having the correct hammer, as long as it’s safe. While I plan on putting a few rounds through it before sending it off, it’s going to be very few,(3, maybe 4mags at the most) knowing how this thing was intended to be loaded, I will be extremely cautious...I need to be careful here as well, this could easily turn into a money pit.. Have Clark go through it, replace the hammer,sear, possibly the trigger, make it safe to shoot, and call it good..That’s where I’m at now...

[farscott]

As I mentioned in my post above, I do plan on sending it back to Clark for a tune up, and have them go through it. I’m sure they could replace the hammer,sear, trigger, and do a safer more modern trigger job.. I’m not too worried about having the correct hammer, as long as it’s safe. While I plan on putting a few rounds through it before sending it off, it’s going to be very few, knowing how this thing was intended to be loaded, I will be extremely cautious...I need to be careful here as well, this could easily turn into a money pit.. Have Clark go through it, replace the hammer,sear, possibly the trigger, make it safe to shoot, and call it good..That’s where I’m at now...

It is your Clark pistol, but I would not send my Clark pistol back to Clark. It is not the same company it was when Jim Senior ran it. Do not believe me; Google the reviews.

[ralph]

It is your Clark pistol, but I would not send my Clark pistol back to Clark. It is not the same company it was when Jim Senior ran it. Do not believe me; Google the reviews.

I’ll do that.. not being argumentative, but if they’re not doing quality work, I’m not interested.. I’ll send an email to Derr and see what he can do.. The beauty of this is I haven’t done anything yet.. But, basically all I want done is to have the hammer,sear, trigger if needed, replaced, so that it’s safe to shoot.

[revchuck38]

Logan Clark also told me that this was probably a hardball gun, and set up for 230gr ammo..

I think this is unlikely. Hardball guns were typically set up for the Service Pistol match, which basically permitted only a trigger job >4 lbs., higher visibility fixed sights and parts of the same dimensions as issue 1911s. Those sights wouldn't be legal in Service Pistol.

ETA: Re: loading it, I was taught that you lock the slide to the rear, insert the magazine, hold the hammer down with the right thumb and drop the slide using the slide release. That eliminated issues with trigger bounce.

[LHS]

Joe Bonar. Super nice guy. I used to shoot USPSA with him at Fort Harmar.

Ralph, that's a nice piece of history. I'd probably also re-sight it, fix the hammer follow add new springs and shoot it. :)

That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. He was a cool dude, no doubt. I remember playing in the creek next to the range with his boy, as we were roughly the same age.

[theJanitor]

I’ll send an email to Derr and see what he can do.

I've sent three pistols Mr. Derr's way. The first was great, but he last two have led me to write him off. My $0.02

[farscott]

I've sent three pistols Mr. Derr's way. The first was great, but he last two have led me to write him off. My $0.02

Dang, that is depressing. He used to deliver great Bullseye work.

[BN]

The correct way to charge the pistol as I understand it, is to load a mag into the gun, retract the slide, and lock it. Press the trigger and hold it, release slide while holding the trigger down, The hammer should stay in place (which it does) It also appears that one can simply load a mag into the pistol, hold the trigger down, rack the slide, and again the hammer stays in place..

I remember when that method was common. I was standing next to a guy who did that and his 1911 went full auto and swept up across his left hand. Luckily no bones broken, but it messed up his hand. That method would not be allowed now in USPSA and IDPA and probably most other sports.

[ralph]

Dang, that is depressing. He used to deliver great Bullseye work.

Yes, that is..Is there anybody I could get who does good quality work, doesn’t have a waiting list that stretches into years, and doesn’t require me taking out a second mortgage?

[ralph]

I remember when that method was common. I was standing next to a guy who did that and his 1911 went full auto and swept up across his left hand. Luckily no bones broken, but it messed up his hand. That method would not be allowed now in USPSA and IDPA and probably most other sports.

When I read what Clark Custom told me, I was a bit taken back, while the pistol does work that way, and that may have been a thing in the early 60’s, It’s going to be changed, just as soon as I can find someone who can do the work, and knows exactly what he’s doing..

[RAM Engineer]

It is your Clark pistol, but I would not send my Clark pistol back to Clark. It is not the same company it was when Jim Senior ran it. Do not believe me; Google the reviews.

Isn't Kay Miculek (wife of Jerry) Jim Clark's daughter? Is Jerry involved in Clark these days? Anyone from the Clark family still involved?

[revchuck38]

Isn't Kay Miculek (wife of Jerry) Jim Clark's daughter? Is Jerry involved in Clark these days? Anyone from the Clark family still involved?

She is Jim Sr.'s daughter, but both she and Jerry are of retirement age. I don't know whether there are any more of the family connected with the business.

[Jim Watson]

As you know by now, you got a Deal on a major big brand name gun that is unfortunately a bit out of date.

As said, hammer follow was not a concern to the bullseye shooter of that era. If you worry about holding the trigger back as you load it, hold the hammer back. Calls for some contortions, but it is safer.
Me? I had a regular hammer and sear put in my Pachmayr; the trick parts, including the odd slide stop are in a baggie for my heirs to profit on.

You might consider one of the lockwork sets from Cylinder and Slide. I have read that they will often "drop in" and work without further grinding.

[theJanitor]

Yes, that is..Is there anybody I could get who does good quality work, doesn’t have a waiting list that stretches into years, and doesn’t require me taking out a second mortgage?

Are you just doing the trigger work, or are you gonna rework the slide/sights too? Where are you located?

[ralph]

Are you just doing the trigger work, or are you gonna rework the slide/sights too? Where are you located?

I’m in Ohio, trigger work is my major concern at this point, reworking the the front sight still isn’t off the table either. I understand that it’s historically correct, but IMO, it’s ugly. I would prefer more a conventional front sight, the rear I can live with. But, at the same time, I don’t want this to turn into a money pit..So, if it comes down to it costing a shit-ton of money to get the front sight reworked, I’ll leave it..

[ralph]

She is Jim Sr.'s daughter, but both she and Jerry are of retirement age. I don't know whether there are any more of the family connected with the business.

Logan Clark, who currently president of Clark Custom, is there, he is Jim Sr’s grandson.

[theJanitor]

I’m in Ohio, trigger work is my major concern at this point, reworking the the front sight, still isn’t off the table either, I understand that it’s historically correct, but IMO, it’s ugly. I would prefer more a conventional front sight, the rear I can live with. But, at the same time I don’t want this to turn into a money pit..

Jim Milks (InnovativeCustomGuns.com) is in PA. He could certainly do the trigger and fix the slide. He is one of the best welders in the 1911 game, and was the smith for EGW for many years. He could also clean up the Tiger Tooth frontstrap, but I'd just throw some wraparound Pachmayrs over them and still retain that signature Clark feature.

[JonInWA]

That's a great idea, or you can go to the Pierce Grip rubber fingergroove frontstrap, which will do the same thing, but is retained by thin intgral attached rubber side panels which are secured by the grips of your choice.

http://www.pearcegrip.com/Products/Colt/PG1911-1

Best, Jon

[ralph]

6173561734

Got the LOK grips, and new grip screws, It looks better already!

[ralph]

Jim Milks (InnovativeCustomGuns.com) is in PA. He could certainly do the trigger and fix the slide. He is one of the best welders in the 1911 game, and was the smith for EGW for many years. He could also clean up the Tiger Tooth frontstrap, but I'd just throw some wraparound Pachmayrs over them and still retain that signature Clark feature.

The tiger tooth front strap, isn’t that sharp anymore, looking at the front strap, it appears that some of the teeth were deliberately knocked down, and as a result it’s not too bad.. If I couldn’t stand it anymore, the pachmayrs are a option.

[Rock185]

I may be a bit biased, but that is a neat old gun IMHO. I'm aware of the pulling the trigger to prevent trigger bounce method, but never wanted a trigger job so delicate it required pulling the trigger to prevent hammer follow. I bought my old Clark gun 20+ years ago, and sent it back for the tune up and some other work in '98. It had been originally accurized by James Clark back in the '60s. In spite of having a very tight barrel/slide/frame fit, I don't recall mine ever malfunctioning. Clark returned a new test target with the gun after tune up that showed 10 shots in just over 2" at 50 yds.

That being said, if mine needed work I don't think I'd send it back to Clark now. I've seen that show with those kids working on guns. My confidence was not inspired. A gunsmith I've dealt with on several occasions is Don Williams/The Action works in Chino Valley, AZ. I've visited with him two or three times, and busy as he is, he was always very generous with his time. I wouldn't hesitate to send any type of pistol work to Don.

[Wise_A]

*sigh* It's your gun.

I'm crying at the thought of redoing the sights. No, the gun isn't super-collectible, but that sight arrangement isn't performed anymore. Frankly, I think it would be more trouble than it's worth, unless you wanted a BE gun badly and managed to vet stellar accuracy out of this one.

Hammer follow could be any number of things. It could be as simple as the sear spring being junked. Or the hammer, sear, or both, could be worn, monkeyed-with, etc. If it were me, I would bag the originals and just have a new hammer and spring fit. While I was at it, I would also have a new trigger done--that looks like a short face trigger, and is really only good if you have really small hands or plan on wearing gloves while shooting.

As far as pistolsmiths, they're backed up because there are very few of them, they tend to be very old, and their work takes time. Jon Eulette would be one guy I know that does good work. David Sams is another. I use KC Crawford for my triggers, but I literally buy this as drop-ins (I like roll triggers). Bullseye-L forum will give you good leads on working smiths.

If it were me, I would have KC make a short roll trigger for me, fit up a medium-length trigger myself, and have everything fixed for a little over $200 without shipping the gun around. But that would result in this Bullseye pistol remaining a Bullseye pistol, but not one that was really good for modern bullseye, and which had a weird trigger that very few people like (because you heathens don't appreciate the glory that is the roll).

Price-wise, I don't think it's as far out there as some other posters. It's not going to be easy to sell as a competitor's gun, as it's not fit for an optic and there's no proof as to whether it's performing. It's not really in good-enough shape to be a collector's gun, due to general wear and tear and the fact that it lacks external markings or documentation. There's no way to determine what was done to the gun, by who. If someone were to want it, they'd want it as a shooter-grade bullseye pistol to have a little fun with, assuming the price was good enough to take the risk on. I don't think you got ripped-off at $500, but neither do I think it's the deal of the century. I would look to net maybe $850 or $900 on a sale, tops, and consider myself very lucky if I got that. $750 is probably a little more realistic. But, you never know who you're going to find.

[ralph]

*sigh* It's your gun.

I'm crying at the thought of redoing the sights. No, the gun isn't super-collectible, but that sight arrangement isn't performed anymore. Frankly, I think it would be more trouble than it's worth, unless you wanted a BE gun badly and managed to vet stellar accuracy out of this one.

Hammer follow could be any number of things. It could be as simple as the sear spring being junked. Or the hammer, sear, or both, could be worn, monkeyed-with, etc. If it were me, I would bag the originals and just have a new hammer and spring fit. While I was at it, I would also have a new trigger done--that looks like a short face trigger, and is really only good if you have really small hands or plan on wearing gloves while shooting.

As far as pistolsmiths, they're backed up because there are very few of them, they tend to be very old, and their work takes time. Jon Eulette would be one guy I know that does good work. David Sams is another. I use KC Crawford for my triggers, but I literally buy this as drop-ins (I like roll triggers). Bullseye-L forum will give you good leads on working smiths.

If it were me, I would have KC make a short roll trigger for me, fit up a medium-length trigger myself, and have everything fixed for a little over $200 without shipping the gun around. But that would result in this Bullseye pistol remaining a Bullseye pistol, but not one that was really good for modern bullseye, and which had a weird trigger that very few people like (because you heathens don't appreciate the glory that is the roll).

Price-wise, I don't think it's as far out there as some other posters. It's not going to be easy to sell as a competitor's gun, as it's not fit for an optic and there's no proof as to whether it's performing. It's not really in good-enough shape to be a collector's gun, due to general wear and tear and the fact that it lacks external markings or documentation. There's no way to determine what was done to the gun, by who. If someone were to want it, they'd want it as a shooter-grade bullseye pistol to have a little fun with, assuming the price was good enough to take the risk on. I don't think you got ripped-off at $500, but neither do I think it's the deal of the century. I would look to net maybe $850 or $900 on a sale, tops, and consider myself very lucky if I got that. $750 is probably a little more realistic. But, you never know who you're going to find.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the front sight..While I wouldn’t mind getting it changed, I have a gut feeling that it’ll be costly, in that event, it’ll stay.. Really, my main concern is the hammer/sear, I want them replaced with something that’s safe, the old parts can go into a bag, for posterity.. At the time this pistol was made, Clark marked his pistol on the third rail inside the slide, along with the date, and it is so marked. I’m pretty positive that all the original parts as it left Clark’s shop in 1961, are still in the gun..The short trigger, while they may not be everyone’s cup of tea, I like’em, and if it’s possible, I’d like to keep the one that’s in it now. Myself, I’m never going to compete with it, it’s going to be a fun gun to pull out of the safe.. The amount of work that will get done to it will depend heavily on cost, I’m not made of money, and I have a limited budget for this project, the hammer/sear issues take priority. The front sight is a maybe, dependent on cost..

[theJanitor]

I'm vintage custom 1911 junkie. But I've never bought a clark, because the work to make it usable for me has always been too extensive. That gun is cool, but only for range fun, just like old competition comp'd 45's. They both don't fit in today's world, except to make you smile.

IMO, the gun's value isn't huge, so do whatever you want to make it usable and fun, FOR YOU.

[BillSWPA]

Another vote for addressing the safety issue with the trigger and keeping the original parts in a bag. You can then enjoy the gun without worrying about that issue. If you ever sell the gun, disclose in writing why the parts are in a bag, and keep a copy of that disclosure for yourself.

[DamonL]

Joe Bonar. Super nice guy. I used to shoot USPSA with him at Fort Harmar.

He built a couple of guns for me. I was sad to hear of his passing.

[SW CQB 45]

out of curiosity,

how is the front sight attached?

swaged/staked?
sweated on?

[Wise_A]

I wouldn’t worry too much about the front sight..While I wouldn’t mind getting it changed, I have a gut feeling that it’ll be costly, in that event, it’ll stay.. Really, my main concern is the hammer/sear, I want them replaced with something that’s safe, the old parts can go into a bag, for posterity.. At the time this pistol was made, Clark marked his pistol on the third rail inside the slide, along with the date, and it is so marked. I’m pretty positive that all the original parts as it left Clark’s shop in 1961, are still in the gun..The short trigger, while they may not be everyone’s cup of tea, I like’em, and if it’s possible, I’d like to keep the one that’s in it now. Myself, I’m never going to compete with it, it’s going to be a fun gun to pull out of the safe.. The amount of work that will get done to it will depend heavily on cost, I’m not made of money, and I have a limited budget for this project, the hammer/sear issues take priority. The front sight is a maybe, dependent on cost..

I've got a short trigger on my BE 1911 now, but I've got a medium waiting to get fitted. I had a medium crisp break on a different frame, then switched to the short, then made some adjustments to my grip and now it's way too short. It's not a huge job, but I just don't have a ton of time and I'm in the middle of a season.

If you're looking to limit the outlay on this--which I think is wise--I would either use a KC Crawford roll trigger kit or a Power Custom kit. Both would be complete kits of hammer/sear/disco. The risk of trying to use a drop-in is that either the hammer and sear pin holes are improperly located (I would be shocked if that was the case on this gun), or that the hammer and sear pins were oversized (more of a possibility, but I really doubt it). The KC kit is a little under $200 depending on your choice of hammers, and gives you a roll trigger, where the trigger stays in motion throughout the pull. Think of it as incredibly consistent, smooth creep. It's challenging to shoot, but amazing for learning to shoot well--if the trigger stops at any point during the pull, then you did not make a good trigger pull.

The Power Custom trigger is a conventional break, available in a variety of weights in the 4-pound range. It's a bit cheaper than the KC kit, and comes with a sear spring and new mainspring.

Neither kit should require any fitting. Disassembly of the 1911's frame components can be tricky, but if I can do it, so can you. You're going to need brass punches and a rubber mallet. You will want a bench vise. I keep hearing stories of people disassembling and re-assembling 1911 frames without one, but I would rather just start smashing my gonads with the mallet, tbh. Your mileage may vary. Adjusting the sear spring will probably not be necessary, except to lighten the trigger pull.

Worst case scenario, you're handing a bag full of gun to some gunsmith, in which case you're really not any worse off than you were when you started.

[fpnunes]

Joe Bonar. Super nice guy. I used to shoot USPSA with him at Fort Harmar.

Yah, Joe was a great guy and awesome to talk to on the phone. He did a couple of pistols for me while working at Wayne's. How time goes by...

[fpnunes]

That being said, if mine needed work I don't think I'd send it back to Clark now. I've seen that show with those kids working on guns. My confidence was not inspired. A gunsmith I've dealt with on several occasions is Don Williams/The Action works in Chino Valley, AZ. I've visited with him two or three times, and busy as he is, he was always very generous with his time. I wouldn't hesitate to send any type of pistol work to Don.

Don is a standup, old school smith who does excellent work. I can also recommend Greg Derr up in MA. Amazing work and cut from the same cloth.

[ralph]

out of curiosity,

how is the front sight attached?

swaged/staked?
sweated on?

Appears to have a shallow slot milled into top of the slide, and either soldered, or silver soldered in place. My idea was, since it could probably be removed in one piece, was to remove it, shorten it up, reinstall it..Doing this, you’d still have the original front sight in the gun, just shorter..

[Toonces]

Appears to have a shallow slot milled into top of the slide, and either soldered, or silver soldered in place. My idea was, since it could probably be removed in one piece, was to remove it, shorten it up, reinstall it..Doing this, you’d still have the original front sight in the gun, just shorter..

Based off An old Jim Clark interview/article that I haven’t seen for about 20 years, the front sights are silver soldered. He made a comment about guys having their staked front sights fly off during a match.

I believe the silver solder was performed before the slide and frame were fitted. I’d have to have a lot of confidence in someone’s knowledge before I let them put heat to a finely fitted bullseye pistol, to convince me it’s not a big deal.

Guys I used to shoot bullseye with had a number of Clark’s pistols. One guy measured his sear hooks in his son’s new Clark wad gun at 0.014”. He was a pretty good shade tree gunsmith, he did a lot of trigger jobs for people at the MTU Pistol Club. He was amazed at how short the hooks were, and how things were fitted. Kuhnhausen recommends 0.020” minimum.

Not that my opinion matters, but I think you’re on the right track with swapping out the sear/hammer and leaving the front sight alone. Any more than that and trading it might be the easier route.

[ralph]

Based off An old Jim Clark interview/article that I haven’t seen for about 20 years, the front sights are silver soldered. He made a comment about guys having their staked front sights fly off during a match.

I believe the silver solder was performed before the slide and frame were fitted. I’d have to have a lot of confidence in someone’s knowledge before I let them put heat to a finely fitted bullseye pistol, to convince me it’s not a big deal.

Guys I used to shoot bullseye with had a number of Clark’s pistols. One guy measured his sear hooks in his son’s new Clark wad gun at 0.014”. He was a pretty good shade tree gunsmith, he did a lot of trigger jobs for people at the MTU Pistol Club. He was amazed at how short the hooks were, and how things were fitted. Kuhnhausen recommends 0.020” minimum.

Not that my opinion matters, but I think you’re on the right track with swapping out the sear/hammer and leaving the front sight alone. Any more than that and trading it might be the easier route.

Thanks for that.. Fitting the sight to the slide before fitting the slide to the frame makes a lot of sense. That little tidbit of information is very valuable to me, as it helps me make a decision.. Sadly, while knowledge about shooting, and how these guns were shot is still around, the techniques involved in building them, are not, and a lot of this knowledge has been lost.I used to be a pipe fitter, and have been around welding for 32 years, I myself have done silver soldering. As you probably know, silver soldering involves a lot of heat, and I could see how this could interfere with the slide/frame fit.. As it is now, I cannot feel any play in the frame/slide fit, I don’t want to do anything to alter that..

[Wise_A]

Guys I used to shoot bullseye with had a number of Clark’s pistols. One guy measured his sear hooks in his son’s new Clark wad gun at 0.014”. He was a pretty good shade tree gunsmith, he did a lot of trigger jobs for people at the MTU Pistol Club. He was amazed at how short the hooks were, and how things were fitted. Kuhnhausen recommends 0.020” minimum.

That was pretty common back in the day. You can have really short hooks and be fine, so long as the placement of the sear and hammer in the frame are proper. What you can't have is short hooks and a really long-lasting trigger. Modern sear/hammer fitting is more about controlling the shape of the engagement surfaces, which is a thing that we can now do easily and reliably with modern tools.


Sadly, while knowledge about shooting, and how these guns were shot is still around, the techniques involved in building them, are not, and a lot of this knowledge has been lost.

Yes and now. Yes, there are damn few true bullseye pistolsmiths left around, because there just isn't a ton of market for it and hand-building a 1911 is a slow process. People don't want to pay for it, and even the fewer shooters there are will either pick up a used gun or just have a decent 1911 accurized,given a trigger job, and fit for an optic.

No, the techniques haven't really been lost. Silver soldering is still done. In fact, there are pistolsmiths using it to fix red dots to slides. In other areas, techniques haven't been lost, but replaced by better ones. Staking a front sight can leave it vulnerable to breaking, for instance, so silver soldering became common. Now we have access to much better machining equipment and techniques, so dovetailing the front sight is popular--it's secure, and makes it easy to replace the front blade. So the expertise has moved to properly cutting the dovetail, and then blending the front sight's base into the curve of the slide.