Any Serpa Holster Failures

[AHL]

Has anyone here personally experienced any of the Blackhawk brand Serpa holsters fail to release a firearm on demand (mechanically speaking)? I've heard of a few second hand accounts. I carry one and haven't had a problem and I know many who swear by them.

[SouthNarc]

I locked one up with a Sim gun and had to break the holster to get it out. From a class in Phoenix 2005 after ground fighting with it in the dirt.

[David]

I have one but I made it safe by removing it's safety features.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I am forced to carry one for duty use, since I run a P30 with a TLR-1 and holsters for duty are very limited and at the time, BH was the only one that made a Level-III for my setup. Have I had any problems, no. As a matter of fact, there's a lot of LEO's in my area that use them without issue. One of the USEC Teams in my area run them pretty hard and haven't reported any issues, either and these boys shoot a lot (50,000 + per year). But, these are not the CQC holsters.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I locked one up with a Sim gun and had to break the holster to get it out. From a class in Phoenix 2005 after ground fighting with it in the dirt.
Narc,

Was it a CQC or one of their duty models?

[David]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htigDRr7tdM

[SouthNarc]

CQC I believe. It wasn't for a Sam Browne, wide type belt.

[AHL]

David that video speak volumes.

Up here in Minnesnowta that is a real potential problem. I will have to re-evaluate, looks like Murphy showed up.

[David]

David that video speak volumes.

Up here in Minnesnowta that is a real potential problem. I will have to re-evaluate, looks like Murphy showed up.

Yeah it would be an issue here too, we get dumped on every winter.

[Frank B]

I've eye witnessing one serious AD back in 2004. The shooter lost around 4 inches of her femur as she tries to draw a G26 from a Serpa.

BTW, I discussed the issue with one of the BHI representatives at the IWA Nuernberg. His explanation was somewhat ignorant. He told me, the shooter had violated the rules of the Serpa and this leads to the AD.

[SouthNarc]

That was in Andy's class wasn't it Frank?

[TCinVA]

The two main problems with the SERPA are:

1. That the locking mechanism for them is subject to being jammed by grit or crud. Often when you make this statement people howl like a scalded dog in protest because they've never seen it with their extensive SERPA experience. The video above should be ample evidence of just how much time and effort they've put into vetting that piece of equipment.

2. It encourages the shooter to place their trigger finger in roughly the area of the trigger and press in. When people attempt to go too fast this results in their trigger finger entering the trigger guard prematurely, and with a light enough trigger pull or under stress (whether that's the stress of a gunfight or a competition) the shooter may not even realize that they are pulling the trigger until they discharge the firearm unintentionally.

Now I'll freely admit that I'm by no means the world's leading expert on firearms and related equipment and that I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but:

The SERPA strikes me as supremely bad engineering. Like a lot of the stuff on the market these days it is not designed with use under stress or less than ideal conditions in mind. It doesn't do a good job of accounting for human error.

In my not-so-humble opinion, they are a tragedy waiting to happen and I wouldn't let anyone I cared about use one.

Flame suit on.

[Frank B]

That was in Andy's class wasn't it Frank?

Yes, it was in Andy's class.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Frank B]

2. It encourages the shooter to place their trigger finger in roughly the area of the trigger and press in. When people attempt to go too fast this results in their trigger finger entering the trigger guard prematurely, and with a light enough trigger pull or under stress (whether that's the stress of a gunfight or a competition) the shooter may not even realize that they are pulling the trigger until they discharge the firearm unintentionally.


This sums it up, pretty well!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AHL]

Skippin the introduction on the video and starting at 2:05 on the counter, you'll save yourself a little time watching the video.

I didn't finish it the first time through, I'd seen enough. I don't believe the tester was very aggressive with following the hoslter up, demonstrating a serious safety issue for a carry stand point.

[DocGKR]

I don't use Serpa's, so I've never had one fail; however, I have seen many problems with them in training. Good thread here: http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3556008371/m/38620833663/p/1.

[KentF]

Skippin the introduction on the video and starting at 2:05 on the counter, you'll save yourself a little time watching the video.

I didn't finish it the first time through, I'd seen enough. I don't believe the tester was very aggressive with following the hoslter up, demonstrating a serious safety issue for a carry stand point.

In the intro he states that he's carried in "SERPA holsters for many years", so I doubt he's considered it a safety issue.

[John Hearne]

I don't know of any popular non-snap style retention system that doesn't have some potential to lock up. If it has moving parts and debris keeps the parts from moving then you can have problems. My guess is that the Serpa is more susceptible to problems as the mechanism is on the outside of the holster.

I seem to remember a warning about the Safariland ALS system shortly after it was released. Apparently an agency was doing ground drills on a gravel surface. A small rock managed to make its way into the holster and prevent the release of the pistol.

I had a trainee relate to me that while doing similar drills in Utah, the SLS hood on his Safariland holster jammed due to a small rock in the mechanism.

[jetfire]

I have heard an unsourced rumor about the SERPA that it was originally designed for 1911s and Beretta 92 series guns, both of which have mechanical safeties. This is nothing more than a SHOT SHOW rumor, so if anyone knows for certain otherwise I'd welcome that input. I will say though that the rumor kind of makes sense - a button near the trigger guard doesn't seem like nearly as bad an idea when the gun you're drawing needs to have a mechanical safety taken off or a 12lb trigger pressed first.

[SouthNarc]

This is from November 2005. Please don't shop this link outside of P-F.com

http://vimeo.com/21234116

password is: blackhawksherpa

[gtmtnbiker98]

This is from November 2005. Please don't shop this link outside of P-F.com

http://vimeo.com/21234116

password is: blackhawksherpaOkay, that shit isn't cool. I'm ditching the holster and going without a light in order to get a better setup for the P30.

[Chuck Haggard]

Outside of the debris issues, the quality of the parts and overall design is a real question.

I used to run several Serpa duty and off-duty style holsters. I have had three of them break the little flat spring in the mechanism that powers the Serpa lock. When this happens the "level II" Serpa holsters essentially have zero retention, not even tension as they are not molded to retain the gun as a kydex holster would be.

This part breaks, it breaks without warning, you can not fix it, and you can not PMCS this part of the holster to be sure your gear will be GTG before going to work.

That the paddles also break regularly, and the holsters separate from the belt shank rather easily, are also serious issues.

[JodyH]

This is from November 2005. Please don't shop this link outside of P-F.com

http://vimeo.com/21234116

password is: blackhawksherpa
Fucking Gomez.
How much Diet Coke do you have to keep on hand when he's around?
:cool:

[SouthNarc]

Enough to try and suppress his necrotic colon.

[fm2]

Enough to try and suppress his necrotic colon.

Amen to that!

[orionz06]

This is from November 2005. Please don't shop this link outside of P-F.com

http://vimeo.com/21234116

password is: blackhawksherpa

Thanks for the video.

[atingle]

This thread is one of many examples of why I like the pistol-forum.com so much.

Instead of vague statements saying the Serpa is "bad" or "dangerous", we get an excellent description of the facts and a demonstration of the weak points in it's design.

I learn something very useful on this forum everyday. Well done!

Regards,
Alan

[David]

Serpa holsters essentially have zero retention, not even tension as they are not molded to retain the gun as a kydex holster would be.


The one I have is made for the Glock 21 / M&P 45. It has retention even without the lock and after I gutted the retention spring. I can adjust the retention screw to lock the gun in as solid as I can in my kydex holster.

[Chuck Haggard]

The one I have is made for the Glock 21 / M&P 45. It has retention even without the lock and after I gutted the retention spring. I can adjust the retention screw to lock the gun in as solid as I can in my kydex holster.

MY experience is only with the models for the G17 and G26, and those are as I noted. I have no doubt you are correct as I have no experience with that model.

[greyghost]

Thank you for posting that SouthNarc. I had heard about those types of failures but not seen one, very enlightening.

[MTechnik]

This is from November 2005. Please don't shop this link outside of P-F.com

http://vimeo.com/21234116

password is: howmuchforamoustacheride

Now I see why you black out your face in all those videos.

(joking, thanks for the vid)

[SouthNarc]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! You rock!:cool:

[SLG]

tpd223 hit the nail on the head. I've never understood why anyone would spend from $500-$2500 on a pistol and then think that the Serpa was a quality piece of gear. For Mil guys, look at your other issued gear (typically), then look at the Serpa. Quality? I don't think so.

I can assure you that the Serpa was not designed to only be used with guns that have safeties. BH used to send me Serpa's when they first came out to test them. G19's and Sig 228's an 229's. I went through 6 of them in about 4 months. None of them would last more than a couple of weeks of hard use. Most stopped retaining the gun, as tpd also mentioned. BH stopped sending me holsters:cool:

I was on a range with the head designer of the Serpa about 2 years ago. He knew nothing about shooting or guns, yet he thought he was qualified to design a holster. His "proof", was how successful the Serpa has been. Oh well.

Snarc, thanks for posting that, very good to see.

Having said all that, I have had problems with 6004's, Milt Sparks, and other high quality holsters. None are immune, but the Serpa seems to be among the worst. Maybe Fobus is worse. Maybe.

[David]

tpd223 hit the nail on the head. I've never understood why anyone would spend from $500-$2500 on a pistol and then think that the Serpa was a quality piece of gear.

Just purely speculative but it may be that a lot of people have to save up in the first place to buy their $500 gun and to them a $40 holster is an expensive holster. Cheap gear beats no gear every time.

[SLG]

Just purely speculative but it may be that a lot of people have to save up in the first place to buy their $500 gun and to them a $40 holster is an expensive holster. Cheap gear beats no gear every time.

That may be the case, but I'm not sure that cheap gear is better than no gear. If your holster gets you hurt or killed, was it worth it? I'll take outdated gear, basic gear, old-fashioned gear, used gear, inexpensive gear anyday over cheap gear.

[Ed L]

I've seen one fail to release a handgun in a carbine class. the shooter in question had been firing a carbine in the prone position and a tiny rock or piece of grit got caught in it.

[Frank B]

That may be the case, but I'm not sure that cheap gear is better than no gear. If your holster gets you hurt or killed, was it worth it? I'll take outdated gear, basic gear, old-fashioned gear, used gear, inexpensive gear anyday over cheap gear.

Buy cheap buy twice, is an old but true saying!
I´ve seen to much guys with cheap gear, because they didn´t care about buying a good holster/belt. After the first assignment, they all got geared up.

The biggest problem for a "beginner" is to distinguish cheap from inexpensive.

[NickDrak]

Excellent thread. Thanks for posting the video SouthNarc.

I have also been advising my fellow LEO's against the SERPA since about 2004-2005 after seeing one ripped from a shooters belt during a CQB class in a similar manner to that shown in the video.

The biggest problem I see with the SERPA holster is that SERPA's are cheap, and so are cops.

[Kyle Reese]

Last summer, I helped a friend of mine select and go about purchasing her first handgun, a Glock 17 Gen 3.

As you can probably guess, the gun shop clerk was pushing SERPAs pretty hard, and encouraged her to pick one up before she left with her new pistol. She politely declined.

I did give her a spare Blade Tech OWB holster and set of mag pouches prior to her picking up her weapon, though. While certainly not the be all, end all of holsters, the Blade Tech was a superior piece of kit to give to a new shooter over the SERPA.

[orionz06]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE&feature

Thread necro, but first hand video is worth it.

[KeeFus]

Holy SHIT! Thanks for the video's! I have tried to no end to get my agency away from these damn holsters. We currently wear them with our H&k's...well, the Det's do anyway. We are awaiting the arrival of our new M&P' .45's and the Captain of the CID ordered these very holsters...again! When I offered an objection I was quickly shot down because 'that's what my guys are used too.' Yeap, they're used to cheap crap that'll break. Ignorance is bliss and is alive and well.

[Arclight]

Good on him for posting that teaching point for everyone, and for not blaming his gear, even if the gear contributed to the issue. Bad confluence of events, bad result, but lucky guy all told.

[TCinVA]

I see a lot of discussion about the SERPA holster out there on the net based on "Well I've never had that problem."

That idea misses the mark.

The bottom line is this:

Serpa holsters require the user to do something that is fundamentally a bad idea...namely applying pressure with the trigger finger toward the trigger during the drawstroke. If I wandered around teaching people to press inward with their trigger finger as they attempted to draw a handgun I'd rightly be labeled an idiot...yet some dude who knows precisely squt about handling a handgun comes up with a device on a holster that requires exactly that and it's awesome?

Sure.

It's true that this doesn't happen to everyone who uses a Serpa...but the underlying logic of the product is deeply flawed and is guaranteed to result in these sorts of incidents which happen over and over and over again. You'd figure that sooner or later the firearms community would learn to ditch bad gear rather than defend it to the hilt because it hasn't yet resulted in their own personal gunshot wound.

[Rains on Parades]

You'd figure that sooner or later the firearms community would learn to ditch bad gear rather than defend it to the hilt because it hasn't yet resulted in their own personal gunshot wound.

You mean just like the motorcycle riding community would all band together and wear full-face helmets? I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but when people ego-invest into something it can withstand any criticism. The gun community would first have to have a rather large percentage of it's members say "You know what, I was wrong about this piece of gear. It's just unsafe.". And in a community where a lot of folks see their gun knowledge as some kind of testament to their manliness, you are asking some folks to give up a lot more than their holster(in their eyes).

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Best SERPA advice? I don't know the answer. What I do tell people is to buy the REGULAR CQC holster by Blackhawk if they HAVE TO have one. It doesn't have the lock, looks just as, "cool," and won't contribute to any issues anymore than a conventional holster would.

[jetfire]

I think what was really interesting about this video is that it's also an excellent example of why your gear should be consistent. He had been training with one of the thumb drive holsters, which he even admits in the video forces you to knock the safety off when using a 1911 while the gun is still pointed in a downward direction. Then when he goes to use the SERPA, he's already knocked the safety off on the draw but forgets to push the button, which leads to the disaster we all saw. While I wouldn't recommend the SERPA, if you're going to use one I would imagine that cross-training with a different holster would be counter productive.

[orionz06]

I think what was really interesting about this video is that it's also an excellent example of why your gear should be consistent. He had been training with one of the thumb drive holsters, which he even admits in the video forces you to knock the safety off when using a 1911 while the gun is still pointed in a downward direction. Then when he goes to use the SERPA, he's already knocked the safety off on the draw but forgets to push the button, which leads to the disaster we all saw. While I wouldn't recommend the SERPA, if you're going to use one I would imagine that cross-training with a different holster would be counter productive.

Good point.

If we assume he does everything else right, and doesn't use the Thumbdrive in addition, the safety is still on and he just looks stupid with his finger on the trigger.

[jetfire]

That being said, the concept of jamming my finger towards the trigger during the drawstroke still makes me squirm.

[TCinVA]

That being said, the concept of jamming my finger towards the trigger during the drawstroke still makes me squirm.

As it should.

I mean, somebody please name for me an instructor of any reasonable reputation that teaches applying inward pressure with the trigger finger while drawing.

***crickets***

Someone give me an equipment-independent argument for why it is a good idea to apply inward pressure with the trigger finger while drawing a handgun.

***crickets***

Divorcing the action from the equipment, it's plainly evident as a ***CENSORED*** stupid practice that's probably going to end in disaster. Thus a holster which requires an action that nobody teaches and no one can defend as a good practice just so the shooter can get the gun out seems like it would be easily weeded out as a stupid idea...the Death Star of stupid handgun holster ideas.

[1986s4]

I have one, in a bag somewhere. Hate it, sometimes it just didn't want to release which upset the timing of my draw, causing me to release the safety to early. And then there's the whole inward pressure of the trigger finger thing. Well, at least it doesn't fit well either....

[ranburr]

That being said, the concept of jamming my finger towards the trigger during the drawstroke still makes me squirm.

I have read post by you praising the Serpa in the last year, especially for new shooters.

What made you change your mind?

[jetfire]

I got smarter. The video where that Tex guy shoots himself in the leg was the last straw for me; last year a friend of mine who is an LE trainer had an ND with a SERPA under similar circumstances. Short version of the story: I changed my mind and came around to the realization that any holster that has you pressing/pushing with your trigger finger during the draw is a fundamentally flawed design.

[pointfiveoh]

Can you use the Serpa as a range loaner if you take the retention lever out of it? Will it retain well enough for basic marksmanship instruction?

[JV_]

Can you use the Serpa as a range loaner if you take the retention lever out of it? Will it retain well enough for basic marksmanship instruction?http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?262-quot-Best-quot-Glock-Holsters-amp-Pouches-Opinions-welcome!&p=5105&viewfull=1#post5105

[pointfiveoh]

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?262-quot-Best-quot-Glock-Holsters-amp-Pouches-Opinions-welcome!&p=5105&viewfull=1#post5105

Thanks JV.