RFI: USPSA Single Stack

[rob_s]

A recent match and another thread here got me nostalgic for when I shot a 1911 in IDPA running 200 grain LSWC.

I know that USPSA has a single-stack division but you don’t hear much about it, I assume because of the frequent reloads (if people are leaving Production because of the mag changes I can’t imagine what they must think about even MORE, assuming 45).

For those that do shoot it, what are the considerations? What are considered the hotness in terms of pistols? Mags? How many mags are people carrying? Bullets-out, I assume? Thoughts or considerations on 9mm vs 45 (power factor vs capacity, as I understand it)?

Anything else to take into account?

[MGW]

I’ve been kicking this around too. My local range has started running an indoor match once a month. I’ve tried to get back into IDPA but I get bored with it. As far as mag pouches go I believe you have to run bullets forward. The major minor scoring thing is a consideration but it seems like most people at nationals are running major. Local matches might be better with minor depending in how stages are set up. Minor or major I would run six mags minimum personally.

My current main 45 doesn’t meet the weight requirement. It’s a little over 43 ounces due to the rail that’s on it. I have a Techwell magwell and grips on it, had it tuned, added Dawson sights, and that’s it.

Subscribed to learn more. I’m going to try to make this months match if I can get it to fit my schedule.

[spinmove_]

A recent match and another thread here got me nostalgic for when I shot a 1911 in IDPA running 200 grain LSWC.

I know that USPSA has a single-stack division but you don’t hear much about it, I assume because of the frequent reloads (if people are leaving Production because of the mag changes I can’t imagine what they must think about even MORE, assuming 45).

For those that do shoot it, what are the considerations? What are considered the hotness in terms of pistols? Mags? How many mags are people carrying? Bullets-out, I assume? Thoughts or considerations on 9mm vs 45 (power factor vs capacity, as I understand it)?

Anything else to take into account?

I don’t shoot it, as I’m still shooting Production and quite like it, but I’ve been curious myself enough to look into it.

The hotness for pistols? Custom 1911s of course. What’s practical that’ll get the job done just fine? Probably your standard fare Springfield or Dan Wesson. I’ll refer you to the “Art and Science of running a 1911” for that specifically. Same thing for which mags. I took a Tim Herron class earlier this year. He was rocking a 9mm Sig 1911 the first day, a custom Nighthawk in .45 the next day. He also was running Wilson mags with Dawson Precision basepads.

How many mags? If you’re shooting 9mm, 5+1. If .45, 6+1. You’re generally “Barney loading” when you Make Ready every time. Most guys that run SS don’t generally run bullets out. Just orient them how you’re comfortable. If that’s bullets out, cool. If not, drive on.

9mm vs .45 is where it gets interesting (unlike typical 9mm vs .45 conversations). From what I understand going 9mm or .45 could give you a competitive advantage either way depending upon how the stages are setup. Sometimes having the 2 extra rounds at your disposal really helps, sometimes Major PF scoring is a bigger advantage. In general, I think you could probably just pick one and drive on. Given that you’re one of keeping things simple, and if it were me personally, I’d probably just go .45 and drive on. Reloading helps keep the costs down.

In general, I view Single Stack as the “weird Production division that lets you shoot a cool single action gun”. If I had the time and resources, I could see myself getting into it. Given that I’m somewhat of a cheapskate that lives in a high cost of living area with a kid about to go into college, I’ll stick to Production for now.

[rob_s]

I guess I should say “off the shelf” new hotness. I’ve gone down the premium productions (Wilson, Les Baer, etc.) and evening semi-custom (Yost 1*) routes in the past and I’d prefer not to shell out that kind of money, if possible. If that’s deemed the only way to get a functional 1911 in 2020 for competition use then I’ll probably skip the whole thing.

In googling about I see a fair amount of discussion of the Springfield RO, which also comes with a fair amount of discussion of them not working. Also unsure re: function with LSWC, which being my primary interest here would be important.

I was only sort of passively aware that Dan Wesson was still around, but it appears that STI has gone full-retard and even had a name change?

[p7fl]

Hi Rob:
Posting a “should I buy a gun” to a Gun Forum is asking kids if Halloween is fun.

Let me remind you of an article you wrote 15+ years ago comparing 3 decent 1911s you owned at the time. I don’t remember your exact views; I do remember the dust bunnies living in the guns.
Horrifying 😊.

I shot Single Stack locally for 10 years. Love 1911s. Negative is that all the “games” are competitions. Driving south 150 miles to Homestead or West to Universal in the course of a month you might find one other person shooting a Single Stack. He is the guy his friend brought along to try out competition shooting. So, you are shooting alone which can get old pretty quick.

I understand different sections of the country have different preferences, but south Fl is hi cap country. While the Stages might be 8 round legal. They are clearly designed for hi caps, not even Production. Limited, Open, PCC and Optics are where the people are.

I always had a 9mm and well as the 45s. The 9 was for Steel Challenge which does not have a power factor in SS. And, hi volume classes like Kyle Lamb where 1000 rounds in 3 days are tough on the hands. All guns were tuned by Derrick Janowicz.
Other Outlaw matches don’t have power factors, Action Steel for example.

Grab a pair of Wilson Combats and enjoy. :-)

[Jim Watson]

I am at present shooting Single Stack because I have more Large primers than small.

I haven't bought a gun in so long that I am not qualified to recommend a brand.
But if you think about it, mass produced guns like SA and Ruger or even Colt are not too expensive and if it doesn't work a couple hundred bucks for a "reliability package" by a real 1911 'smith will get you going a lot cheaper than a small time manufacturer "semi custom". Some like S&W and Sig, but they may be more of a departure from 1911 than you care for.

Heck, a friend here has a Tisas and all it took was a good magazine and a detent on the slide stop to get him going. But he is content with roundnose bullets.
So am I. Not all my .45s will feed SWCs and I am tired of keeping them straight. There are 200 gr roundnose so I can keep the same ballistics even though not the pretty holes.

[rob_s]

I shot Single Stack locally for 10 years. Love 1911s. Negative is that all the “games” are competitions. Driving south 150 miles to Homestead or West to Universal in the course of a month you might find one other person shooting a Single Stack. He is the guy his friend brought along to try out competition shooting. So, you are shooting alone which can get old pretty quick.
That, at least, I don't care much about. I'm happy to look at the overall scores, ignore the various rankings and classifications, and see where I land. The prospect (likelihood?) that I wind up beating a guy shooting Limited while i shoot SS? That's pretty much enough for me. I have no illusions about actually being competitive as I've found I have other priorities. not to say I don't care about the score, but I don't care enough to put any real effort into changing them.


I understand different sections of the country have different preferences, but south Fl is hi cap country. While the Stages might be 8 round legal. They are clearly designed for hi caps, not even Production. Limited, Open, PCC and Optics are where the people are.
Funny you say that, as even at last week's action steel I was thinking the exact same thing. Obviously I have no idea what any other matches are doing in the region, and now that AJ has killed the afternoon squads probably won't even realistically know what he's doing either anymore (which perhaps makes all of this a moot point), but it did occur to me that the stages were pretty clearly favoring "hi cap".

[GJM]

Except in a Single Stack match, most competitors are shooting other divisions, and stage designs have become influenced by hi cap divisions.

The easy way to make a 1911 reliable, is to shoot .45, but then you are eight rounds in a hi cap world. The stories I hear about making .40 magazines reliable are crazy complicated. If you are shooting 9, why not Production, unless you carry a 1911.

[rob_s]

Except in a Single Stack match, most competitors are shooting other divisions, and stage designs have become influenced by hi cap divisions.

The easy way to make a 1911 reliable, is to shoot .45, but then you are eight rounds in a hi cap world. The stories I hear about making .40 magazines reliable are crazy complicated. If you are shooting 9, why not Production, unless you carry a 1911.

The whole point would be to shoot .45, specifically LSWC, for no particular reason other than contrarianism and anachronism.

[fatdog]

Major and minor power factors apply as well as the respective target scoring, you can shoot either.

I have shot minor 9mm to be able to use 10 round mags, but I now only shoot major and use 8 round mags. The ACT 8 round 45 mags work well in my S&W Performance center 1911, my backup gun is my former bullseye gun modified for USPSA. I tired of shooting minor to get the extra two rounds and sold my Performance Center 9mm to a friend and fellow competitor even though it mostly ran for me with the second gen Wilson ETM's. I have loaded reduced power 230gr, 200gr swc, and 185gr Berry hollow base bullets at various times that all made major. I currently run the reduced power 230's (about 750fps) with a 14# spring and a shock buff and that seems to be the sweet spot for me.

There are different rules regarding placement of your holster and magazines for single stack division, e.g. no dropped and offset holsters and mag carriers behind the point of the hip. I basically converted my old CAS wild bunch rig to a USPSA single stack set up since it meets the requirements, but many conventional belt holsters will work. As with other divisions, having a good plan derived from the stage walk through is essential since you have more mag changes than anybody else.

[GJM]

The whole point would be to shoot .45, specifically LSWC, for no particular reason other than contrarianism and anachronism.

I get that — to me 1911 and 45 are synonymous.

[fatdog]

contrarianism and anachronism.

The whole mindset I have for USPSA at this point in life. They turned the sport into track and field over the years, and I cannot play that at a real competitive level, may as well enjoy the guns I started it with 25 years ago and just enjoy the courses of fire....

[NETim]

Unfortunately all of my 1911's suffer from that disappearing front sight thing. If only I could hang a dot on them. I love whacking cardboard with those big 200 SWC's. :)

[45dotACP]

I guess I should say “off the shelf” new hotness. I’ve gone down the premium productions (Wilson, Les Baer, etc.) and evening semi-custom (Yost 1*) routes in the past and I’d prefer not to shell out that kind of money, if possible. If that’s deemed the only way to get a functional 1911 in 2020 for competition use then I’ll probably skip the whole thing.

In googling about I see a fair amount of discussion of the Springfield RO, which also comes with a fair amount of discussion of them not working. Also unsure re: function with LSWC, which being my primary interest here would be important.

You don't need to spend huge money for a reliable single stack setup...but it'll be more time money and effort than a "normal" gun, even in .45 like a M&P45, G21, or PX4.

I run a Springfield RO in .45 and though I tend to use 230gr polymer coated RNL bullets, I have faith using a 200gr LSWC bullet. If you use a magazine with parallel feed lips you should have fewer problems. Mine has no problems with them, I just like heavy bullets that I can download to just barely get major. Sometimes I'll shoot minor but I found that it's not really THAT much better aside from the two extra rounds.

The .45 ACP 1911 will be the most reliable option, although it should be noted that even my RO didn't work immediately after I got it. I had to adjust the extractor and the adjustable rear sight launched itself into the ether one match and I had to replace it after shooting the rest of the match with just a front sight. Since addressing those, I've had many a match, range day and training session that went swimmingly.

All that to say, I have phenomenally bad luck getting 1911s that run out of the box, but I got decent at making them work. Nothing about a reliable out of the box 1911 is certain for me.

I run bullets forward, work a lot of reloads and although being the "single stack guy" means I really won't be cleaning the local talents clock anytime soon, I find that my position in the overall scores doesn't change much. The production guys beating me will still beat me, and even if I went to a higher cap division I'd still lose to them. I did a class with Tim Herron and watched him execute a practice stage with the exact same stage plan I did, but a full few seconds faster. It's more about efficiency, planning, and good hits and less about my excuses.





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[JFK]

I shoot Single Stack more than anything in USPSA. I like it because it is more thoughtful and places a higher premium on accuracy because competing with the Hi Cap mean every round counts.

.45 is the way to go for Single Stack if you are shooting major because:

Easy to load for and large primers are avialable
Major power factor is easy to achive without trickery
Reliability


I use 230gr FMJ. Because it is really easy and reliability is a huge factor to be competitive in single stack. As far as hotness for heaters most people have some custom who ha in whatever flavor they like. Personally for me that is an identical pair of Les Baer Custom Carry worked over by my gunsmith sponsor.

All that being said I also shoot IPSC and the rules are a bit different, and usually when I shoot international I end up shooting minor in 9mm. Single Stack is really fun if you like the nuances.

[Gary1911A1]

I still like the 1911 and shooting in Single Stack Division, and it isn't unusually for me to be 1st place, mostly because I'm about the only one who regularly shoots in that division.:D I started shooting IPSC in the 70s' and miss the old days when almost everyone shot a 1911, reloaded H&G 68s', and everybody helped pick up brass after a stage.

[Gio]

Here's my 2 cents:

Single stack is a dying (dead?) division and has been for several years. Outside of single stack nationals, there is absolutely no competition at state and area matches, and participation at club matches can be counted on one hand. If that doesn't bother you, proceed on.

If you've already gotten over that hump, I find it hard to beat the Dan Wesson 1911's as the best single stack guns in .45. I had a DW Specialist that rivaled my Springfield Professional for fit/finish and reliability and blew away the lower grade Springfield 1911's. In fact, the trigger on the Specialist was better out of the box, and I wouldn't spend any additional time or money trying to improve it. The Specialist, with the light rail dust cover, is the perfect weight and gets you within an ounce of the division weight limit.

I find .40 1911's to be a bit more finicky than .45. The caveat is you can shoot either major or minor with .40 and just use different ammo.

Bullets out or forward is personal preference. I still shoot bullets forward for production and do well with it.

[JFK]

Here's my 2 cents:

Single stack is a dying (dead?) division and has been for several years. Outside of single stack nationals, there is absolutely no competition at state and area matches, and participation at club matches can be counted on one hand. If that doesn't bother you, proceed on.

If you've already gotten over that hump, I find it hard to beat the Dan Wesson 1911's as the best single stack guns in .45. I had a DW Specialist that rivaled my Springfield Professional for fit/finish and reliability and blew away the lower grade Springfield 1911's. In fact, the trigger on the Specialist was better out of the box, and I wouldn't spend any additional time or money trying to improve it. The Specialist, with the light rail dust cover, is the perfect weight and gets you within an ounce of the division weight limit.

I find .40 1911's to be a bit more finicky than .45. The caveat is you can shoot either major or minor with .40 and just use different ammo.

Bullets out or forward is personal preference. I still shoot bullets forward for production and do well with it.

I disagree with competition. In the southwest Single Stack is still very popular, granted it is not nearly as popular as production for the low cap stuff.

I am working with Southwest Gunsmith Technologies to make a "one gun" for IPSC, IDPA and IDPA. It would be a .40 1911 with the intention of making the weight and size IDPA legal, but able to take 10 round mags so when you shoot IPSC you can declare major or minor depending on the match. I have found that event shooting 175 power factor in minor there is not much to chase power factor to make a competitive difference. Declaring minor gets you the extra rounds.

[MGW]

Off the shelf? The Ruger Koenig looks pretty nice. I still think a used Wilson is a pretty good buy. Did Dan Wesson ever get past the galling issue they had with slides? or was that an isolated issue?

My last few 1911’s have been Springfields. I have a good relationship with a custom builder. I put a few rounds through them and then send them to him for a reliability package. Usually they don’t need much but it’s cheap insurance and I’m still way under the price of a semi custom.

I’m having pretty similar results with Chip and Wilson magazines. I’m using Bayou 200 SWC and Bullseye.

I’m okay getting beat by production style guns. I haven’t shot USPSA but I do shoot other matches with similar rules. I’m competitive. On shorter stages I’m usually right there. Shooting a single stack is fun for me. Plastic guns have their purpose but for me fun isn’t one of those purposes.

I’m currently down to one major gun and one minor. I use to own several but I’m working on getting to quality over quantity. I’m kicking around having a USPSA legal major gun built. My builder has connections with Nighthawk. I’m kind of waiting to see what direction they go now that Tim Herron is shooting for them.

Gio knows a lot more about USPSA than I do. I agree that single stack is a lot smaller division than it used to be. That doesn’t mean it’s dead. I mean revolver is still a division.

I say do it.

[rcbusmc24]

I've been running Single Stack Major this last year, just made B class in it, which is kind of disappointing but a accurate assessment of my true ability with a 1911 so... I changed out the Beretta holster on my belt for a 1911 and I am carrying 6 spare mags on the belt plus the initial load and spare to get me to 9 rounds in the gun for loaded starts. I never thought I would count rounds but it seems to be a real thing with this division. I got 4 targets and then reload, don't ever go to slide lock if you can avoid it. Don't make up any C or D hits.... Luckily only ever have a few D's.... I have been using a worked over Springer range officer I picked up at Virginia Arms a few years ago and a Stainless Springer TRP I picked up used for 6 bills at a local shop. I had a failure of the sear spring in the TRP on a stage in a local match but that was a easy fix.... only issue so far. I am enjoying the division and have won a couple matches for my division simply due to being one of two to four guys shooting single stack. I started shooting this due to having a abundance of 45 ACP stored away vice continuing to burn my irreplaceable 9mm stock. I can still source 45 locally.... I shoot factory ammo, never got into reloading so I can't help you there...

[Spartan1980]

Don't shoot a lot of USPSA these days but when I do it's single stack because it's the next best thing to revolver which really is dead. Plenty enough guys in my area still play in SS to make it interesting including one GM and several Masters.

I run DAA mag pouches bullets out because even though I have plenty ample waist, real estate on the belt is just easier.

Safariland USPSA Kit (wouldn't bother if I was doing it over) with a 5197 holster.

Non-rail SA TRP for major, STI Trojan for minor.

Alphas are easier and quicker with minor. Stage design plays into it, but all the big boys at the big matches always seem to run major. Minor is like rimfire, it's almost cheating. :cool:

[Default.mp3]

FWIW, my buddy that shoots Single Stack primarily and is currently the IPSC Classic champion told me that the best out-the-box SS gun is probably a Nighthawk; his smith that was squadded with us that day agreed. This was influenced by the fact that Nighthawk is much accommodating to customization compared to Wilson Combat, so if you're not picky, it may not matter.

[rob_s]

FWIW, my buddy that shoots Single Stack primarily and is currently the IPSC Classic champion told me that the best out-the-box SS gun is probably a Nighthawk; his smith that was squadded with us that day agreed. This was influenced by the fact that Nighthawk is much accommodating to customization compared to Wilson Combat, so if you're not picky, it may not matter.

With their guns coming in over $3k, that’s probably not where I’m going to start out. If that’s what it takes to get a reliable 1911 in 2020 then I’ll skip the whole thing.

Fortunately, some folks seem to report passable results with guns costing half that or less.

[45dotACP]

There are many factory 1911 guns that can be made to be reliable. I think John McClain finished 12th at single stack nats with a Rock Island. Again, I am not the luckiest guy in the world when it comes to getting a reliable gun out of the box, but if you buy one, and it passes the 10-8 test, you'll probably be good to go as far as feeding/firing/ejecting.

The 10-8 test is the single greatest indicator of reliability in most of the guns I've fired. Of the seven 1911's I own, only one won't pass the 10-8 test and it will give me brass to the face. It still runs decently in matches etc, but I'm still working on it until I trust it. The other six pass the test and have not had a feedway jam since I got them to pass it. I've seen guys running Rugers, Remington R1's, Sig 1911's, S&W1911's, Kimbers (yep) and Colts.

That's not to say they won't have other stuff go wrong, but the feedway stoppage is the biggest problem with most factory 1911's and the more common malfunction. I'd say the best option is probably something like a Springfield RO elite with the fixed sights, or a Ruger SR1911. Do the 10-8 test, if it passes, great, if not, either fix it yourself or get it looked at by a smith for a reliability package.

[rob_s]

I'd love to run one of these for no particular reason other than because:colt but they seem to be non-existant in the real world
https://www.colt.com/detail-page/gold-cup-trophy-45acp

61378

[p7fl]

That is a nice looking gun !

2nd hand suggestion...heading up to a Randy Cain Handgun 2 class circa 2008, I asked him which 1911 to buy.
He suggested a Gunsite Colt. Bought the gun, fired 8 rounds, and drove North where it proceeded to win all 4 competitions that Randy ran in his class.
15 years later they are still as good as it gets and priced fairly,
https://www.gunsitestore.com/product/firearms/colt-gunsite-1911/

[MGW]

I'd love to run one of these for no particular reason other than because:colt but they seem to be non-existant in the real world
https://www.colt.com/detail-page/gold-cup-trophy-45acp

61378

I have a line on a new Colt Competition in stainless and a Gold Cup National Match in blue. PM me if you want more information. It's a local dealer that is a friend of mine.

[MGW]

That is a nice looking gun !

2nd hand suggestion...heading up to a Randy Cain Handgun 2 class circa 2008, I asked him which 1911 to buy.
He suggested a Gunsite Colt. Bought the gun, fired 8 rounds, and drove North where it proceeded to win all 4 competitions that Randy ran in his class.
15 years later they are still as good as it gets and priced fairly,
https://www.gunsitestore.com/product/firearms/colt-gunsite-1911/


These were on sale several months ago. I'm still kicking myself for not picking one up. I don't like short triggers but other than that it's just about perfect. I believe they are put together by the Colt custom shop. I still want one pretty bad.

[rob_s]

I have a line on a new Colt Competition in stainless and a Gold Cup National Match in blue. PM me if you want more information. It's a local dealer that is a friend of mine.

Thanks for that, but this is probably a Q1 2021 purchase, if at all. Between the holiday season and the range I’ve been shooting at killing off the afternoon squads, there’s little chance of me getting back to a match before then, if ever. :(