Target focused shooting with irons

[THeHumbleMarksman]

Now obviously I made this video with competitive shooting in mind - but all of my irons shooting since adopted this technique has long since gone this way unless I am group shooting - but for hand sized targets at most pistol ranges I can usually target focus and hit - but figured I would post this here.

Taking the old “tape up the optic” trick - turns out you can do it with irons as well.

Forgive the sensational title - it’s how the YT game is played unfortunately. Hopefully I am not kicking over the ant hill by posting this here

Front sight focus is a lie - How to Target Focus - Be Faster and more accurate

https://youtu.be/RCJAPeJNvnY


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[RJ]

I’m slowly (very slowly) getting to understand and be able to score an AA or AC at speed using target focus inside 5 yards (high D shooter in P / G19). Outside that, I shoot more often with a harder front sight. That tends to slow me down as well.

I must always concentrate on trigger control, though, for sure.

Be interested in the replies from some of the guys here.

[Clusterfrack]

Good video! Here's a comparison I did recently--all target focus with iron sights--exploring Hwansik Kim's 3 Confirmation Types:
1. Index shooting, no vision confirmation
2. Flash sight picture and/or sight in motion
3. Stable sight picture

Church shot drill 8” plate 17yds.
Confirmation 3, reliable hits ~1.5s
Confirmation 2: 1.46, 1.38, 1.35 miss, 1.38, 1.11, 1.24 miss, 1.11.
Sights taped over, Confirmation 2: 1.09s hit. Miss. Hit.

[HCM]

Now obviously I made this video with competitive shooting in mind - but all of my irons shooting since adopted this technique has long since gone this way unless I am group shooting - but for hand sized targets at most pistol ranges I can usually target focus and hit - but figured I would post this here.

Taking the old “tape up the optic” trick - turns out you can do it with irons as well.

Forgive the sensational title - it’s how the YT game is played unfortunately. Hopefully I am not kicking over the ant hill by posting this here

Front sight focus is a lie - How to Target Focus - Be Faster and more accurate

https://youtu.be/RCJAPeJNvnY


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You know what really helped me target focus with Irons ? Shooting with a dot them switching back to irons.

The problem with “front sight focus is a lie” is for the shooters I deal with at work is their fundamentals are such that soft focus is already falling apart at 7 yards and we already have round accountability issues.

[THeHumbleMarksman]

I’m slowly (very slowly) getting to understand and be able to score an AA or AC at speed using target focus inside 5 yards (high D shooter in P / G19). Outside that, I shoot more often with a harder front sight. That tends to slow me down as well.

I must always concentrate on trigger control, though, for sure.

Be interested in the replies from some of the guys here.

Your issue is grip - you aren’t locking wrists every time and likely need to tweak your elbow positioning then learn to feather the trigger. You have to create a frame for recoil and have it be the same every single time. When you are hammering pairs you are seeing where the shots go and not actively aiming - so you shot call and send more if necessary rather than aiming hard on each shot - one good sight picture then two shots out to about 5-10 yards depending on how good your grip is. “Good” split times would be .2 or less for match setting at those distances


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[THeHumbleMarksman]

Good video! Here's a comparison I did recently--all target focus with iron sights--exploring Hwansik Kim's 3 Confirmation Types:
1. Index shooting, no vision confirmation
2. Flash sight picture and/or sight in motion
3. Stable sight picture

Church shot drill 8” plate 17yds.
Confirmation 3, reliable hits ~1.5s
Confirmation 2: 1.46, 1.38, 1.35 miss, 1.38, 1.11, 1.24 miss, 1.11.
Sights taped over, Confirmation 2: 1.09s hit. Miss. Hit.

Hwansiks sight pictures aren’t as descriptive as Max’s sight pictures though admittedly I haven’t played with them any


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[GJM]

Now obviously I made this video with competitive shooting in mind - but all of my irons shooting since adopted this technique has long since gone this way unless I am group shooting - but for hand sized targets at most pistol ranges I can usually target focus and hit - but figured I would post this here.

Taking the old “tape up the optic” trick - turns out you can do it with irons as well.

Forgive the sensational title - it’s how the YT game is played unfortunately. Hopefully I am not kicking over the ant hill by posting this here

Front sight focus is a lie - How to Target Focus - Be Faster and more accurate

https://youtu.be/RCJAPeJNvnY


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Even though hardware topics are most common here, the essence of PF is software, and we need more software threads.

[GearFondler]

Even though hardware topics are most common here, the essence of PF is software, and we need more software threads.

Software is Work, Hardware is Play... One needs a proper balance of both but I'm definitely guilty of too much play.

[Clark Jackson]

Now obviously I made this video with competitive shooting in mind - but all of my irons shooting since adopted this technique has long since gone this way unless I am group shooting - but for hand sized targets at most pistol ranges I can usually target focus and hit - but figured I would post this here.

Taking the old “tape up the optic” trick - turns out you can do it with irons as well.

Forgive the sensational title - it’s how the YT game is played unfortunately. Hopefully I am not kicking over the ant hill by posting this here

Front sight focus is a lie - How to Target Focus - Be Faster and more accurate

https://youtu.be/RCJAPeJNvnY


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I just need a clarification before going into the rabbit hole on this one.

Are we (the royal "we") espousing the use of sights (soft focus) with a hard target focus OR the complete disregard of the sights with hard target focus (binary proposition - sights/no sights)?

*By "sight focus" I refer to iron sights. The use of RDS should demand a hard target focus and not a sight focus unless conducting a zero/confirm zero.

[Clusterfrack]

I just need a clarification before going into the rabbit hole on this one.

Are we (the royal "we") espousing the use of sights (soft focus) with a hard target focus OR the complete disregard of the sights with hard target focus (binary proposition - sights/no sights)?

*By "sight focus" I refer to iron sights. The use of RDS should demand a hard target focus and not a sight focus unless conducting a zero/confirm zero.

It depends on the target difficulty, but most of the time I use my sights to confirm alignment with the target. If the target is very large, mechanical alignment and the slide are enough.

Yesterday at a local match, target focus worked really well for me, even on a Classic target (turtle) with very tight no shoot partial at 20+yds. I shot 3 on it and got 2A and a close C. However, target focus didn't work well for me on some small, far knock-down steel on a lean. I went to war with those little fuckers, when I should have just used my sights more carefully. I couldn't confirm horizontal alignment well enough using target focus to go 1-for-1.

[Clark Jackson]

It depends on the target difficulty, but most of the time I use my sights to confirm alignment with the target. If the target is very large, mechanical alignment and the slide are enough.

Yesterday at a local match, target focus worked really well for me, even on a Classic target (turtle) with very tight no shoot partial at 20+yds. I shot 3 on it and got 2A and a close C. However, target focus didn't work well for me on some small, far knock-down steel on a lean. I went to war with those little fuckers, when I should have just used my sights more carefully. I couldn't confirm horizontal alignment well enough using target focus to go 1-for-1.

I'm not sure if that's what Humble Marksman was getting at, but your description is good to go for me. It highlights the variations of "sight packages" required based on target size, distance, shooter skill, etc. and of course all the other stakes - especially off the range - which come into play.

I may not completely agree with the OP and title of that video because it could lead some to an incorrect conclusion the use of sights is not regularly required for the effective use of a firearm. Your response just saved me a time-expensive deep-dive on the subject.

Thanks, CF.

[HCM]

It depends on the target difficulty, but most of the time I use my sights to confirm alignment with the target. If the target is very large, mechanical alignment and the slide are enough.

Yesterday at a local match, target focus worked really well for me, even on a Classic target (turtle) with very tight no shoot partial at 20+yds. I shot 3 on it and got 2A and a close C. However, target focus didn't work well for me on some small, far knock-down steel on a lean. I went to war with those little fuckers, when I should have just used my sights more carefully. I couldn't confirm horizontal alignment well enough using target focus to go 1-for-1.

Fitt’s Law is a bitch:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts's_law

[Backspin]

However, target focus didn't work well for me on some small, far knock-down steel on a lean. I went to war with those little fuckers, when I should have just used my sights more carefully. I couldn't confirm horizontal alignment well enough using target focus to go 1-for-1.

When you said "on a lean," was that referring to you leaning (like around a barricade) or the target was slanted?

[Clusterfrack]

When you said "on a lean," was that referring to you leaning (like around a barricade) or the target was slanted?

Around a wall, so my index was a little jacked. My misses were right or left of targets pretty much randomly.

[Backspin]

Ah, that was my initial interpretation.

What I've found is how much concentration to give to a shot depends on not only the target size, but also our position. The more we deviate from our primary shooting position the more focus we need to apply to sights and trigger. I've noticed I simply cannot shoot the gun the same leaning from a barricade compared to my usual upright range stance, but in the past I thought it was just a recoil management issue.

What Humble Marksman said earlier about grip/locked wrists joints, along with some recent range sessions, reminded me that grip not only supports recoil management, but also effects how aggressive we can be on the trigger without disturbing the sights. Leaning out from a barricade can effect how well our wrists lock which might be another reason why we need to focus more on sights/trigger on the lean.

[Clark Jackson]

Tom Givens posted a link in M&T for the October 2020 Rangemaster newsletter. You can find the link here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?44808-October-Rangemaster-Newsletter

In this newsletter, Mr_White penned an article titled: "Knowing What You Need to Know" (starts on page 8) and it is germane to this thread. The overall article was well done and I enjoyed it. In particular, the below excerpts:

"Aiming with iron sights can further subdivide into sight-focused (front sight sharp and clear, rear sight and target blurry), and target-focused (front and rear sights blurry, target sharp and clear) shooting. Both of those methods are in the category of visually verified sighted fire." -Gabe White, Rangemaster Newsletter October 2020

And

"Amazing levels of speed can be cultivated with sighted-focused shooting. Amazing levels of precision can be cultivated with target-focused shooting. What both have in common is that the gun is brought to full extension at eye level, and vision is used to establish the finest level of gun-target alignment that is practical under the circumstances..." -Gabe White, Rangemaster Newsletter October 2020

Clusterfrack
Backspin
GJM

[Jared]

One thing I’ve noticed in threads on PF over the years, when target focused shooting is brought up, well intentioned folks tend to talk past each other and this can result in more heat than light. The disconnect seems to be that when good competition shooters talk about target focused shooting they are still using the sights to aim, they just don’t have a razor sharp front sight focus. The gun is still at eye level, they still very much see front and rear sight on the target, it’s just that they are fuzzy. This can, and does, save those dudes some time in a match setting while providing perfectly acceptable accuracy for what they are doing.

More defensive oriented folks tend to think of target focused shooting as not using the sights at all. The gun may not be in eye level. In defensive use, this tends to lead to extremely poor accuracy unless the opponent is in contact distance and a good retention shooting technique is used. An example of a good retention technique in my mind is the thumb pectoral index used for touching distance retention shooting.

I think it is a little harder to achieve maximum accuracy with the target focused technique often recommended by competition shooters for most people. The people that can do it well have spent a great deal of time honing the technique and tend to be excellent shooters. The problem comes in when folks that don’t have the same amount of time and dedication try to apply it. Those people seem to get poor hits and poor scores.

For the vast majority of shooters using iron sights, I believe the more traditional hard front sight focus is the better technique. If they show a high level of dedication to the craft, such that they are willing to spend the extra practice time, then learning how to apply the competition shooters target focus technique can be very beneficial to match performance.

[Clark Jackson]

One thing I’ve noticed in threads on PF over the years, when target focused shooting is brought up, well intentioned folks tend to talk past each other and this can result in more heat than light. The disconnect seems to be that when good competition shooters talk about target focused shooting they are still using the sights to aim, they just don’t have a razor sharp front sight focus. The gun is still at eye level, they still very much see front and rear sight on the target, it’s just that they are fuzzy. This can, and does, save those dudes some time in a match setting while providing perfectly acceptable accuracy for what they are doing.

More defensive oriented folks tend to think of target focused shooting as not using the sights at all. The gun may not be in eye level. In defensive use, this tends to lead to extremely poor accuracy unless the opponent is in contact distance and a good retention shooting technique is used. An example of a good retention technique in my mind is the thumb pectoral index used for touching distance retention shooting.

I think it is a little harder to achieve maximum accuracy with the target focused technique often recommended by competition shooters for most people. The people that can do it well have spent a great deal of time honing the technique and tend to be excellent shooters. The problem comes in when folks that don’t have the same amount of time and dedication try to apply it. Those people seem to get poor hits and poor scores.

For the vast majority of shooters using iron sights, I believe the more traditional hard front sight focus is the better technique. If they show a high level of dedication to the craft, such that they are willing to spend the extra practice time, then learning how to apply the competition shooters target focus technique can be very beneficial to match performance.

+1. Well said.

This is exactly why I cringe when I read things like "hard front sight focus is a lie." I know what they mean (or think I do...which is why I ask before jumping into the discussion), and I have a pretty good idea what the uninitiated will think reading that type of headline. The above is another massive reason RDS is one of if not the best technological gain for firearms since smokeless powder: it made target focus *the way* and not *a way* for utilizing the sight properly (with both eyes open even... and that was a big point of contention for a minute as well).

I'm actually surprised we don't see it more RDS on military and law enforcement folks handguns (plenty on their machine guns, rifles, and carbines), but I understand the concerns with ruggedness and some other concerns. However, at the end of the day, it most likely comes down to a resources issue (time to train and money). I'm completely derailing here so I'll leave at that.

Again, well said Jared.

[Elwin]

I'm glad someone can describe this better than I can. I've been shooting with both eyes open and a target focus basically since I started shooting pistols, even though my introduction to handguns was 25 yard shooting; it's just what my eyes did naturally, so I have a very hard time describing to people what I'm doing when they ask "how the hell is it even possible to shoot a pistol with both eyes open?". Some points made here may help. Big thing for me is I've finally connected the dots as far as two-eyes-open and target focus going together. Explaining to people that I shoot with both eyes open doesn't make any sense at all if their assumption is that a hard sight focus is "the way," or at least what I'm talking about. I can't front sight focus with both eyes open, it results in seeing two targets which is something that at least my brain can't handle. But I am almost always instinctively ignoring a second set of sights that's off to the right.

Hopefully my explanation works better now, next time someone asks me.

[Jared]

I'm glad someone can describe this better than I can. I've been shooting with both eyes open and a target focus basically since I started shooting pistols, even though my introduction to handguns was 25 yard shooting; it's just what my eyes did naturally, so I have a very hard time describing to people what I'm doing when they ask "how the hell is it even possible to shoot a pistol with both eyes open?". Some points made here may help. Big thing for me is I've finally connected the dots as far as two-eyes-open and target focus going together. Explaining to people that I shoot with both eyes open doesn't make any sense at all if their assumption is that a hard sight focus is "the way," or at least what I'm talking about. I can't front sight focus with both eyes open, it results in seeing two targets which is something that at least my brain can't handle. But I am almost always instinctively ignoring a second set of sights that's off to the right.

Hopefully my explanation works better now, next time someone asks me.

Gabe White wrote an excellent article about vision where he discusses focus and accommodation with both eyes open. I can have both eyes open, a hard sight focus, and only see one target. It’s just that now there are “two guns.” One is very faint though. That’s how I have to shoot to get my best results.

[Pistol Pete 10]

Close range the front sight is just a reference. I see it but don't focus on it, kinda more like pointing my finger.

[rob_s]

Re: target focus with the dot, I thought that was the whole point of the dot? It’s funny but I had never thought about occluding the optic (https://www.armsonusa.com/armsonoeg.html) on a pistol even thought I’ve shot a Trijicon TA33 with the front cap closed for ages.

Re: tape trick with the irons, that’s an interesting method. I got my G19 and competition belt out of the safe yesterday to try some dry fire in the hopes of starting to shoot pistol in some local matches (been shooting PCC) and found that with my “new” progressive lenses it’s pretty much impossible to get an aligned front-site focus with both eyes open. I can focus on the front site like I never even could when younger, but somehow my right eye is becoming less dominant and the sights turn out to be misaligned when I close my left eye to check, which was already leading me to needing to have a target focus. Will have to try the tape trick.

[Mr_White]

Gabe White wrote an excellent article about vision where he discusses focus and accommodation with both eyes open. I can have both eyes open, a hard sight focus, and only see one target. It’s just that now there are “two guns.” One is very faint though. That’s how I have to shoot to get my best results.

That's how I get my best results as well. Like, by a lot. I think doing so makes it far easier for me to remain process-focused (as in mental focus - not to add another confusing 'focus' reference to the mix) instead of outcome-focused, because I can't easily see the bulletholes. And the detail I get in the sight picture by having the front sight in hard/sharp/clear visual focus I think is a step in the direction of the precision one gets from a dot. Not the same, but in that direction.

[JHC]

Is it possible to only see one pistol, one front sight and one target with both eyes open? Because I can't trigger dual target or dual pistol either target focused or front sight focused. Both eyes open.

[Clusterfrack]

Is it possible to only see one pistol, one front sight and one target with both eyes open? Because I can't trigger dual target or dual pistol either target focused or front sight focused. Both eyes open.

That’s what I see.

[Joe Mac]

At my agency we started doing a ton of simunitions training about 20 years ago. We had some soul-searching discussions among FIs when in these scenario-based, close range fights, many of us had no recollection of using our sights at all (despite training to use a hard front sight focus), yet our shots were exactly where we wanted to place them. Video showed that we were indeed bringing our sights to the eye, and we realized we were using a sharp-target, blurry-sights picture as described earlier in this thread, and under stress our brains had discarded the irrelevant memory of the blurry sights. With more reps on scenario gunfights, the stress level lowered and the brain was able to recall more small details.

With experience, my brain and eye simply know when they need to transition back to hard front sight focus, based on distance/difficulty of the shot, and when they can save a few tenths of a second by remaining focused on the target. It's not something I think about consciously. When I train drills that purposely push the speed/distance limits of target focus, I find that a brightly colored front sight (orange Ameriglos are my preference) are an invaluable aid to tracking the front sight while remaining focused on target.

[Borderland]

I don't see a lot of discussion about the use of shotguns in a clays environment but that's understandable on a pistol forum. The fact is target focus is the only way to become competitive as a clays shooter. One does not focus on the front sight (bead or light pipe) of a shotgun. Actually it's only half of a sighting system anyway because your eye is the other half. So yeah, front sight focus in many situations isn't necessary for acceptable accuracy and the result of not using it speeds things up.

Good clays shooters know that front sight focus is the first mistake that novice shooters make. When you do that you loose your ability to track a fast moving target. Target focus is key. I totally understand the concept and have used it for many years, just not with a pistol.

[Elwin]

I don't see a lot of discussion about the use of shotguns in a clays environment but that's understandable on a pistol forum. The fact is target focus is the only way to become competitive as a clays shooter. One does not focus on the front sight (bead or light pipe) of a shotgun. Actually it's only half of a sighting system anyway because your eye is the other half. So yeah, front sight focus in many situations isn't necessary for acceptable accuracy and the result of not using it speeds things up.

Good clays shooters know that front sight focus is the first mistake that novice shooters make. When you do that you loose your ability to track a fast moving target. Target focus is key. I totally understand the concept and have used it for many years, just not with a pistol.

Totally neglected to mention it in my earlier post, but by the time I first shot a pistol I'd been shooting clays and live birds for at least 5 years, with clays shooting being a weekly thing during time off school (I started basically as soon as I was big enough to swing a youth-stocked 870 around). That may have something to do with using target focus immediately when I picked up handguns. Maybe a lot to do with it, actually.

[Clusterfrack]

That's what I discovered. I'm not a serious clays shooter, and don't really care about shotguns. However, I shoot Trap when I visit a buddy who is quite skilled at this game (he can shoot 200). So, with no practice and shooting maybe 1-2x a year, I was able to consistently score 17-20 on a round. This year, after switching entirely to target focus shooting with my handguns, I shot a 25, 24, and 24. It just didn't seem that difficult once I was looking at the target or just ahead of it. Trusting my index was a big part of it.


I don't see a lot of discussion about the use of shotguns in a clays environment but that's understandable on a pistol forum. The fact is target focus is the only way to become competitive as a clays shooter. One does not focus on the front sight (bead or light pipe) of a shotgun. Actually it's only half of a sighting system anyway because your eye is the other half. So yeah, front sight focus in many situations isn't necessary for acceptable accuracy and the result of not using it speeds things up.

Good clays shooters know that front sight focus is the first mistake that novice shooters make. When you do that you loose your ability to track a fast moving target. Target focus is key. I totally understand the concept and have used it for many years, just not with a pistol.


Totally neglected to mention it in my earlier post, but by the time I first shot a pistol I'd been shooting clays and live birds for at least 5 years, with clays shooting being a weekly thing during time off school (I started basically as soon as I was big enough to swing a youth-stocked 870 around). That may have something to do with using target focus immediately when I picked up handguns. Maybe a lot to do with it, actually.

[willie]

I have interacted with several competitive shotgun shooters including one who was an Olympic competitor. One removed the bead. All said they never saw the bead when shooting. I realized that these guys were athletes who had superb hand-eye coordination. They also had excellent eyesight. Their skill would have transferred to shooting handguns.

[BWT]

I wish bullets were in stock to mess around with this idea. I guess this where I internally debate reloading again.

[Elwin]

I have interacted with several competitive shotgun shooters including one who was an Olympic competitor. One removed the bead. All said they never saw the bead when shooting. I realized that these guys were athletes who had superb hand-eye coordination. They also had excellent eyesight. Their skill would have transferred to shooting handguns.

Yeah, beads are ornamental as far as I'm concerned, and everyone I personally know who shoots clays/birds well would agree. My 20ga 391, which I've had for years and probably shoot better than any other shotgun, lost its bead at some point during all the abuse it's put up with, and I've never bothered replacing it. Probably never will.

[45dotACP]

Now obviously I made this video with competitive shooting in mind - but all of my irons shooting since adopted this technique has long since gone this way unless I am group shooting - but for hand sized targets at most pistol ranges I can usually target focus and hit - but figured I would post this here.

Taking the old “tape up the optic” trick - turns out you can do it with irons as well.

Forgive the sensational title - it’s how the YT game is played unfortunately. Hopefully I am not kicking over the ant hill by posting this here

Front sight focus is a lie - How to Target Focus - Be Faster and more accurate

https://youtu.be/RCJAPeJNvnY


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Most useful to me was the inversion of the commonly held "focus on the front sight" trope.

So here's some clickbait back at ya.

You should actually focus on the rear sight. The front sight only matters for difficult shots.

I think our own Les Pepperoni had an IG post recently about how to get on target quickly at and get good hits. It basically involved what he referred to as "framing" the target with the rear sight.

Lots of shooting instructors do a "shoot out of the notch" demo with classes. So many students see this drill and fail to understand what it even means. They'll shoot with the front sight all the way to the right, left, bottom, and top of the rear notch. Then they'll tell you that this means a repeatable trigger control is what you really need.

They're not wrong, but they only grasp half the lesson.

Guys like Tim Herron taught me the deeper meaning of this demonstration in his class.

If the target is at close range, I slice the target in half with the rear sight and shoot without really caring about the front sight much. If it's further away then I take a little more effort to see a decent alignment of the front sight. The correct trigger press is always going to be the most important thing, yes, but you really only need to pay attention the front sight for long/difficult shots.

[THeHumbleMarksman]

Most useful to me was the inversion of the commonly held "focus on the front sight" trope.

So here's some clickbait back at ya.

You should actually focus on the rear sight. The front sight only matters for difficult shots.

I think our own Les Pepperoni had an IG post recently about how to get on target quickly at and get good hits. It basically involved what he referred to as "framing" the target with the rear sight.

Lots of shooting instructors do a "shoot out of the notch" demo with classes. So many students see this drill and fail to understand what it even means. They'll shoot with the front sight all the way to the right, left, bottom, and top of the rear notch. Then they'll tell you that this means a repeatable trigger control is what you really need.

They're not wrong, but they only grasp half the lesson.

Guys like Tim Herron taught me the deeper meaning of this demonstration in his class.

If the target is at close range, I slice the target in half with the rear sight and shoot without really caring about the front sight much. If it's further away then I take a little more effort to see a decent alignment of the front sight. The correct trigger press is always going to be the most important thing, yes, but you really only need to pay attention the front sight for long/difficult shots.

I wrote this a couple years ago - but has the same general message - I was nowhere near as proficient as I am now but still


https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/shooting-tip-rear-sight-matters-content-contest/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jh9]

I can have both eyes open, a hard sight focus, and only see one target. It’s just that now there are “two guns.” One is very faint though. That’s how I have to shoot to get my best results.

Same, more or less. The 2nd gun isn't all that faint, I assume due to being cross dominant, but it's still not a big deal. It's far enough to the left and at enough of an angle that once the buzzer goes off it doesn't register.

I do notice that when moving around barrels or barricades and being surprised by a target (I either missed in a walkthrough or simply forgot was there because the MD was playing memory games with stage design) that I still sometimes slip into a target focus with the green fiber optic being a sort of dot-ish phantom ball that I can use to still get hits at close range. That was never an intentional, practiced technique. It's just an accidental thing that happens, and since I have some sort of visual confirmation the gun is pointed at the right part of the right target that means I don't have to blow the stage by coming to a stop and trying to get my eyes unconfused. Of course two alpha on cardboard close enough to spit on doesn't really take a lot, either.

So long as the gun (left hand) is more-or-less indexed directly in front of the (left) eye switching between the two focuses on unobscured targets at typical around-the-barricade-field-course distances doesn't seem to matter all that much. Assuming there are no no-shoots or hard cover on them.

[JHC]

Because of the ammo drought I finally bought a SIRT pistol for more trigger presses.

It comes with Glock OEM style sights but all black. They are easy for me to lose completely in poor light or against a dark target background so I started using that for target focused dry fire practice and I'm pretty happy with what I'm seeing in terms of the laser pinging what I'm after. Then extending that to good lighting with target focused presses.

[ER_STL]

Because of the ammo drought I finally bought a SIRT pistol for more trigger presses.

It comes with Glock OEM style sights but all black. They are easy for me to lose completely in poor light or against a dark target background so I started using that for target focused dry fire practice and I'm pretty happy with what I'm seeing in terms of the laser pinging what I'm after. Then extending that to good lighting with target focused presses.

What I discovered when I bought a SIRT a year or so ago was that I was capable of hitting with enough accuracy out to about 10-12 yards without using the sights at all. That was quite a revelation to me since I'm less likely to steer the gun at all when I'm focusing on the target.

[GAP]

Wow. I almost created a new thread five minutes ago with the same title.

I have never consciously thought about it, but while evaluating whether or not I want to switch to red dots on handguns, I’ve realized that even with irons I shoot both eyes open with a target focus.

I almost always shoot ARs with an Aimpoint micro and I think that eventually changed the way I shoot irons.

Even from 25 yards I take a target focus and for a split second really sharpen and focus on the bullseye behind my front sight. With Bill drills I’ve also noticed that I watch the big Orange front sight drop down into view (like a red dot) and press once it reaches the top of the A zone... pretty cool realization for me to build on.

[TimH]

I’ve been teaching “soft target focus” and “sight anchoring” for years now.

Hard front sight focus is bogus and causes a lot of over refinement issues.

[Clusterfrack]

I’ve been teaching “soft target focus” and “sight anchoring” for years now.

Hard front sight focus is bogus and causes a lot of over refinement issues.

Glad to have you here on P-F, Tim.

[MickAK]

I think it comes down to understanding whether you are using iron sights as an angle measurement device or an angle reference device.

Under ideal circumstances you can do good work either way, with practice. Under less than ideal circumstances (lighting, heart rate, hand fatigue, speed required) you need to know which one to use and when.

[ER_STL]

For those of you who shoot with a target focus and iron sights, do you look over the sights or through them while relying on the imposition of the sights from your dominant eye onto the target seen by your non-dominant eye? I must be very dominant to one eye because I’m finding it difficult to see the target when my sights are aligned at eye level (same for a dot - it’s hard to see the target and I instead see the window despite not focusing on it). Wondering if anyone else has this problem…


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[Clusterfrack]

For those of you who shoot with a target focus and iron sights, do you look over the sights or through them while relying on the imposition of the sights from your dominant eye onto the target seen by your non-dominant eye? I must be very dominant to one eye because I’m finding it difficult to see the target when my sights are aligned at eye level (same for a dot - it’s hard to see the target and I instead see the window despite not focusing on it). Wondering if anyone else has this problem…


If I understand your question, the answer is through the sights. My alignment is exactly as for a front-sight focus. Sights aligned, with POA at the top edge of the front sight.

Target focus can take time to get used to. Using a target with some detailed features may help. A blank brown target is harder to focus on at first.

[frozentundra]

For those of you who shoot with a target focus and iron sights, do you look over the sights or through them while relying on the imposition of the sights from your dominant eye onto the target seen by your non-dominant eye? I must be very dominant to one eye because I’m finding it difficult to see the target when my sights are aligned at eye level (same for a dot - it’s hard to see the target and I instead see the window despite not focusing on it). Wondering if anyone else has this problem…


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For me (and I suspect this is true for most others) nothing changes about sight position or alignment with regard to my dominant eye. It's only what distance my eyes are focused. Nothing else moves.


The only way I can force an experience that sounds anything like you describe is if I:

1) Aim with my non-dominant (left) eye while squinting my dominant (right) eye to force a perceptual change in eye dominance

2) Slowly open my normally dominant (right) eye while concentrating hard to keep my new (left) inverted perceptual dominance.

3) Change my focus from sights to target and back

This can induce some really funky visual phenomena that my brain doesn't process well. I'm not sure if it's the same as you're describing, but it's as close as I can get. I feel like it strains my eyes.

I doubt that will be of any help to you!




One thing you could try: stand in a relatively dark area and aim out into a brighter target area. This may help your vision lock onto target focus while looking through the very dimly illuminated sights. It may take a while before your brain learns to process visual information in a new way.