Is 10+1 Rounds Enough?

[SwampDweller]

Hello all. I've lurked and read these forums for a number of years without an account, but I do have a question that prompted me to make one. This is a subject I've been doing a lot of reading about lately, but I wanted to get the perspective of the fine folks here.

As of right now, I have a Glock 19 Gen 4 and an HK45C. I find both to be very concealable, even the HK45C with the 10 round elephant foot magazine. I've normally been carrying the HK45C because, for whatever reason, I shoot it better than my Glock 19 despite being in .45 Auto. This could be because I've shot it a lotmore, as I have a steady supply of .45 ammunition, but I think the trigger is more suited to me too. Anyway, I like carrying the HK45C, though I wonder if I'm at a significant disadvantage with 10+1 rounds in the pistol. I do carry 3 spare 10 round magazines on me as well. I don't live in a ban state.

In a day and age where multiple attackers in a self defense situation is far from an impossibility (or multiple feral dogs, etc), is 10+1 rounds on board really enough? I do prefer my HK and have more experience with it, it was my first centerfire pistol and it's what I've practiced the most with. I also have more .45 ammunition on hand and available. Having had to shoot medium-sized animals with both 9mm and .45 using quality ammunition and having the opportunity to examine how they do against bone, I do have a little more faith in the .45 with regards to the types of animals around here.

Thanks.

[Duelist]

Confidence and accuracy count for more than round count and bullet size.

[MGW]

The short answer is yes. Carrying a pistol is more important than round count. Being able to put rounds on target under time pressure is more important than round count.

If you like the trigger system on the 45c better than a Glock you can always explore other 9mm pistols with the same trigger system.

[AzShooter]

I now carry and S&W EZ 9 because I've lost a lot of strength in my left arm and have a difficult time racking the slide. It only has 8 +1 rounds but I feel very comfortable carrying it with 2 extra magazines. If I can't get the job done with 25 rounds I'm in serious trouble.

[CalAlumnus]

Yeah, sounds to me like it may be worth looking at a P30 or P2000, or maybe a P07/P09, or maybe even a PCR.

[the Schwartz]

Hello all. I've lurked and read these forums for a number of years without an account, but I do have a question that prompted me to make one. This is a subject I've been doing a lot of reading about lately, but I wanted to get the perspective of the fine folks here.

As of right now, I have a Glock 19 Gen 4 and an HK45C. I find both to be very concealable, even the HK45C with the 10 round elephant foot magazine. I've normally been carrying the HK45C because, for whatever reason, I shoot it better than my Glock 19 despite being in .45 Auto. This could be because I've shot it a lotmore, as I have a steady supply of .45 ammunition, but I think the trigger is more suited to me too. Anyway, I like carrying the HK45C, though I wonder if I'm at a significant disadvantage with 10+1 rounds in the pistol. I do carry 3 spare 10 round magazines on me as well. I don't live in a ban state.

In a day and age where multiple attackers in a self defense situation is far from an impossibility (or multiple feral dogs, etc), is 10+1 rounds on board really enough? I do prefer my HK and have more experience with it, it was my first centerfire pistol and it's what I've practiced the most with. I also have more .45 ammunition on hand and available. Having had to shoot medium-sized animals with both 9mm and .45 using quality ammunition and having the opportunity to examine how they do against bone, I do have a little more faith in the .45 with regards to the types of animals around here.

Thanks.

High quality training > magazine capacity

Not so subtle hint: Equipment issues can be addressed/resolved through training.

[rd62]

You carry 3 spare mags in addition to the 10+1 in the gun?

Either way, a lot of good work was done with 6 round revolvers and 7 round 1911's.

As was already said, if you can put those 10 rounds on targer accurately and efficiently under stress you are off to a much better start than someone with higher capacity and less ability.

There's never a magic number for how much is enough, but be damn sure you are proficient with what you have.

[SwampDweller]

Yeah, sounds to me like it may be worth looking at a P30 or P2000, or maybe a P07/P09, or maybe even a PCR.
I'll look into a P30, though in my situation I actually have better access to .45 and reload for it. The increased ammunition cost is not a concern. If 10+1 is enough, I'd actually prefer to stick with my HK45C just because I have tons of ammo for it and I've shot it more than any other centerfire pistol.

[GAP]

First, you should ask yourself why you are carrying a gun in the first place.

I carry to protect my family from immediate death, kidnapping, etc. Many people seem to base their carry choices on fantasies they think up in their heads. E.g. AK47 wielding terrorists go nuts in Wally World, packs of rioters that will apparently send waves of bodies towards you even after the first shot goes off, whatever just happened in the news, etc.

Outside of the internet, MOST people are carrying their guns half the time out of laziness or opt for a small .380 or 5 shot revolver they can stick in their pocket. On the internet, everyone carries a full sized pistol with a red dot, a light, and every other gadget Batman would have on his belt.

Having a reliable firearm on you that you are confident in making hits with, trumps all the capacity in the world; you own every bullet out of that gun. Luckily for you, it is extremely unlikely that you will ever need it, so carry what you are most confident in and enjoy life.

More important things to worry about:

How is your health?
Are you regularly doing strength training and cardio?
Do you have hand to hand self defense skills?
Are you constantly challenging yourself to be better than you were yesterday?

[fpnunes]

Yes! #closethread (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=closethread) :cool:

[03RN]

I just recently went from 6rds back to 9 because its 2020:p. Plus a 10rd spare.

There's just so much weird shit going on I felt like a revolver might not cut it.

I think your hk plus 3 spares is good

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

I carry a PX4 Storm 45 with 10 rounds on board and spare magazines. I also have a PX4 Storm 40 caliber and a 9mm. So, I have choices.

Part of my consideration was multiple attackers. My thought was that with a 9 mm I would have 18 rounds and that is better for more attackers. However, if I had four attackers and had to dump 3 9mm into the first guy, what are the other three guys doing now? If I had to do, what is commonly called Boarding House Rules- everybody gets firsts, before anyone gets seconds... If I only could put one shot on each of those targets before assessing who needs more, I would rather hit with a 45.

Even with five opponents after I have delivered a double tap to the midsection of each I would not be well advised to be standing still anyway. Since I practice high speed reloads while on the move it would be a perfect time. In all of the self-defense scenarios that I can come up with, 10 rounds of 45 seem to be quite a lot. 10 rounds into the fight is a long time and you should be moving, taking cover or coming up with some other plan to get really short. This gives time for a quick reload and another rally if needed.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

[Bigghoss]

If you check the statistics or go watch Active Self Protection on Youtube, almost all civilian gunfights are won within 3 or 4 rounds, if you have adequate skill and proper mindset. Caliber is frequently irrelevant as well. Does that mean I'm going to carry a .22 derringer and call that good enough? No, but I don't often feel uneasy about grabbing a pocket gun instead of strapping on a 15+1 pistol with a couple spare mags.

[Catshooter]

The thing about multiple attackers is that almost always as soon as the first couple or three get shot the rest evaporate. A recent and famous example is the Kyle Rittenhouse shooting.

I'd stick with the H&K.


Cat

[Navyguns]

I'd rather have 10 rounds in a pistol that I can shoot B8 @ 25 yards with a score 90 or higher than one I can't but have more bullets. On demand accuracy will bring more confidence to a shooter than the number of rounds on board. I am a civilian. If I was employed to go after dangerous people, then I would want on demand accuracy with more bullets and probably a long-gun of some type.

I remember in the early 1990's and well into the AWB of 94-04, many gun magazines would have articles about magazine capacity versus stopping power or mag. capacity vs. accuracy. Of course the pistol standard at that time for accuracy was the 1911. Some would mention the Sig P220 for the non-9mm pistol. People need to remember LEO mostly carried revolvers with 6 rounds for a long time.

Not exactly the versus article I mentioned but this was from a magazine in the 90's.
60334

[Mark D]

I'm pretty sure Tom Givens spoken on this issue, based on the sixty-some self defense shootings his students have been involved in.

[GJM]

I'm pretty sure Tom Givens spoken on this issue, based on the sixty-some self defense shootings his students have been involved in.

Yes, but what did he say — last I recall, he went from a two bad guy gun to a four bad guy gun?

Back to the OP. Most shoot the 9 better but wonder if the .45 brings enough power to the equation to offset an easier to shoot 9. In this case, he shoots the .45 better than the 9, so I don’t think there is much to discuss, since the HK checks the easier to shoot and bigger bullet boxes.

[Canyonrat]

The 6 rounds on my hip as I sit here are a lot more than zero. In today’s world, walking around with 30 rds of 9 is not a bad idea. Every actual use of force event is a single instance where statistical likelihood drops away to hard cold reality...so no one can tell you.

[SwampDweller]

What exactly did Tom Givens say? Is this the quote about the 1911 being a "two bad guy gun in a three or four bad guy world" when talking about the 1911? My HK does (typically) hold 2 more rounds than a 1911. Not a lot more, but still more.

[YVK]

I carry 10+1 chambered in a 9 mm most of the time, so I presume that my actions endorse the "enough" notion.


That said, I do it only as a compromise with my concealment requirements. If I could conceal a 17+1, I'd carry that. In the example provided above, equally sized and weighted 10+1 45 vs 15+1 9, it would've been no discussion for me in favor of a higher cap gun.

[1slow]

Tom said “a 1911 45 is a two bad guy Gun and Memphis is a three bad guy town.”

At the time he was carrying GL35 .40 I believe.

[john c]

I think there are two issues here:

1) you shoot HKs better than Glocks.

2) your preferred HK is 10 rounds versus 15 rounds in a your preferred Glock

Basically, does the extra capacity of the Glock outweigh your increased performance with the HK?

I would say that if you're concerned about it, try an HK P30/P30SK/USPC/P2000 to get the best of both worlds. Alternately, devote the effort needed to shoot the Glock as well or better than the HK.

I'm an accuracy guy, so for me I'd stick with the HK over the Glock for the increased performance. Then focus my efforts getting even better with the HK.

[MattyD380]

I carry what I shoot well... and fits in my pants comfortably, discreetly and safely.

That criteria typically precludes a full-size/double-stack gun, as well as most teeny tiny pistols that are difficult to shoot well. So, there's compromises on both ends of the spectrum... and that usually leaves me with a single stack, ranging in size from a Kahr K9 to a Sig P239 (or occasionally a P245, if I want to put gigantic holes in things). The latter is about the biggest gun I want to carry IWB.

I feel like I have what I need to defend myself with 7 or 8 rounds that I know I can place well. I definitely don't feel like I'm missing out by not carrying a 15-round gun. But that's just me. If I lived and worked in more dangerous areas, maybe I'd feel differently? But I guess my take on carry is to be able to get myself out of trouble... not win a protracted gunfight. But I do typically bring an extra mag or two... just in case...

[Robinson]

I carry either nine rounds of 45 ACP or ten rounds of 38 Super in a 1911. The way I feel about it is that more rounds would be better, but not enough to offset my confidence with the 1911. Not in a "1911s are superior" sort of way, but rather in a "this is what I know and I'm old and stuck in my ways plus my 1911s always work" sort of way.

Make your choice based on what you are most confident in using should it be necessary. If you decide the additional capacity is enough of a priority to get you to switch, then commit to training enough with the new pistol to get to the same level of confidence with it.

[HCM]

If you are more confident and more importantly competent with the 45C I would just go with that.

That said, have you verified the better performance with the 45C for both time and accuracy I.e. better scores and better times on drills ?

The G19 and 45C are two different operating systems IME with a group of 700 shooters of varying skills and interest shooting both Sigs and Glocks (or both)! the best results have been picking one operating system and sticking with it. The Glock and the HK LEM systems in particular require an sort of monogamy to shoot at a high level.

Monetary Cost aside, there is a time and control penalty to shooting 40 and 45. Shot to shot times on multiple targets are normally longer with larger calibers. This time penalty is also seen shooting one handed which is a thing in the real world.

If you shoot the 45C better you may want to try a P2000 or USPC in 9mm as a G19 replacement. While they only hold 13 rounds to the 10 in the 45C, you may find your issues with 9mm are Glock related and not caliber related.

[SiriusBlunder]

OP, How do you define "shoot it better"? Slow-fire "bullseye" type shooting or multiple hit/multiple target timed drills? What about one handed shooting?

I ask because I've had quite a few people tell me they shot a G21 or G22, or whatever duty sized pistol whose caliber starts with a "4", better than a G17. In slow fire, that appears to be true. But when I put them on a timer and have them run Bill Drills/The Half Test/El Presidente/Failure Drills/FAST, etc., it isn't. Timed drills can be very revealing.

As to your question, my EDC is a G17/G19 depending on dress, even though I shoot my M&P45 midsize (10+1) more accurately in slow fire. In the drills mentioned above, it's G17 > G19 > M&P45. I'm sure there are folks that can shoot a similar sized .45 better than 9mm in these types of drills, but I'm not one of them.

I'm also of the belief that more rounds means more opportunities/time in fight. For random violence, that's probably not an issue, but since I can carry high a capacity 9mm as easily as a lower capacity pistol (i.e. G48), I choose capacity. (There were times when I was in a lose-my-job NPE where I had to make do with a CM9 or even an LCP in a pocket as primary, but those times are over).

[kitchen's mill]

Wait until the elections are over, you may have as good as it gets.

I've also noticed that around here .45 acp is about the same price as 9mm with slightly better availability.

Who knows how long that continues, but if I had a good supply of .45 I'd feel pretty good about it.

The glory days might be behind us.

If my 10 round .45 doesn't feel like enough, I'd be tempted to add a second or third gun.( the G19 would fit right in)

And if I have a reliable vetted automatic right now, I'd hold what I got.....

[Bucky]

I see some recommending a P30 or P2000, both great options. However, you’re already proficient with the HK45, and (especially these days) have on hand and better access to .45 ACP ammo to retain or improve said proficiency. You’re willing to go the extra mile carrying the larger magazine and spare magazines on hand.

I’m truly getting the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” vibe here.

[DocGKR]

Depends....

[MK11]

I'm all for capacity but is there a single documented case of a civilian dying because they ran out of ammo? We've already mentioned Kyle Rittenhouse being surrounded by mad dog leftists and he fired, what, seven rounds? Meanwhile, the Patriot Prayer guy who was murdered was rolling with a Glock 17 and three 17-round spare mags and he died with the gun in his holster.

Capacity is good but it's probably not the reason you're going to win or lose. If you're going to switch guns, do it so you don't get a hernia from lugging around three spare mags of .45 ACP.

[RJ]

For the OP, all I read was ‘I shoot the HK better’ so seems to me that’d be the choice.

Chances are though, none of us armchair keyboard shooters will be involved in a gunfight. Still, first rule and all that, so bring a gun. I’ve decided my life expectancy will be enhanced first by not doing stupid things with stupid people in stupid places (Mr. Farnham’s rules), then by getting myself in shape so I have more cardiac reserve, and lastly getting training and being proficient with my carry gun.

For walking the dog inside our gated apartment complex, situated on an island at the end of a 3 mile causeway, it’s a Ruger LCR. If I have to venture out, it’s a 10 or 12 round gun, currently either a P365 or P365XL. While sleeping its a G19 with a G17 mag; because, you know, Zombies. :)

[inkslinger]

I say it’s an unanswerable question. Maybe yes, maybe no. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst....

[BehindBlueI's]

I worked Homicide & Robbery for six years in a pretty busy office. I worked hundreds of shootings and had access to many, many more years of case files. For random violence (ie, not targeted as in domestics or dope dealer on dope dealer type events) capacity was irrelevant to outcome. Speed, surprise, and ferocity of attack won the day. J-frame, Glock, knife, golf club, if the "defender" employed the weapon as a surprise and with sufficient ferocity (pulling the trigger instead of just brandishing, slicing open the attacker's abdomen instead of just showing the knife) the good guy won 100% of the one on one encounters and damn near all the multiple attacker scenarios. The multiple attacker scenario losses or draws were not capacity limited, they were time or tactics limited. Shoot the bad guy in front of you, catch a bullet right next to the spine from the bad guy behind you that you were unaware of. Pull a gun with an empty chamber, get dogpiled and killed without getting a shot off. That sort of thing.

Do you have a crazy ex-domestic partner who's willing to die to kill you? Are you a likely target for a dope rip? Capacity can come in to play. Is your biggest threat an addict mugging you at the ATM? It's irrelevant. Literally everyone in those situations had won or lost before the gun was dry. Some ran the gun dry anyway, but it didn't make a difference. Targeted violence, I've seen folks dead with "high capacity" guns in their hands. Glocks, semi-auto SMG replicas, those little AK "pistols". Very few got to shoot them empty, they were dead before then. At least one could have done better if his "proper equipment" included not wearing his pants under his ass and falling down in the street with his pants around his ankles and then sucking up a bunch of 7.62 as he emptied his Glock from a seated position at two aggressors behind cover.

I am no stranger to violence, either as an investigator or participant. I am 100% fine traveling around the country with a .357 magnum revolver, a healthy situational awareness and conflict avoidance skill set, and a reluctance to insert myself into other people's problems.

[jeep45238]

Depends on my skill with that firearm to an extent, but the reason I jumped up in capacity to a different firearm was population density. Part of that jump was the ability to have a weapon light and a red dot on the slide, which dramatically changes what I can do since I can see better at more times of the calendar day.

My job is in a rural college area, and during work it's a J frame due to population, location, and that we're always on a team. After work, heading back to a dense population area for this region, I switch out.

X% of bad actors times Y population in a given small area = more potential problems.

[John Hearne]

Yes.

[RevolverRob]

Hell, for the last week, I've been carrying a LCP with 7-rounds of .32NAA. Not even a spare mag.

Before that, 5 rounds of .38 and 5 more spare rounds.

Ultimately, capacity doesn't seem to account for much (see BehindBlueI's post above). As much as having a gun (review of Tom Givens data, the few losses and forfeits come from not having a gun or getting ambushed).

Review the nature of assaults in your area and make your own determinations. The ones I have seen in my area are typically 1-2 muggers perhaps a 3rd driving a getaway. They target people walking along on their phones. When victims fight back they usually flee, because it's easier to steal from victims who don't fight back.

[TCinVA]

There are multiple ways to look at it.

Capacity is opportunity. The more bullets you have, the more opportunities you have to score the hits necessary to stop someone from inflicting lethal levels of violence on you. While one bullet might work, expect it to take at least 5 to stop someone who is intent on a fight from completing their goal.

Capacity is time. With more bullets, you are able to keep lead in the air for a longer amount of time. With a typical double stack handgun that is likely to be more time than the bad guy trying to hurt you wants to spend in the path of your bullets.

Capacity is not capability. Having more bullets doesn't automatically mean you can put them where they are going to do you some good. While there are bad guys out there that will piss themselves and run if a scared, incompetent person produces any weapon by surprise, there are also bad guys out there who aren't impressed by the appearance of a weapon and will have to be actually defeated by prolifically perforating their vital organs.

A capable person...with "capable" being defined as someone who has deliberately cultivated technical skills in the use of a weapon of some sort paired with deliberate cultivation of the mindset necessary to produce it and get to work when the situation calls for it...is likely to be successful against most violent criminals even if they have extremely limited capacity. Capable people will give you a fight, and most bad guys are not looking for a fight when they are out committing a violent crime.

A capable person who runs into a committed criminal...with "committed" being defined as a violent criminal who is perfectly happy to engage in an unexpected fight...might prevail with very limited capacity if they have cultivated a very high level of skill paired with a higher than average ability to think their way through a bad situation. Generally a capable person is more ready for a committed criminal than committed criminals are for a capable person because capable people are much, much rarer beasts in the bad guy's world than committed criminals are to the capable person. Even so, the capable person with limited capacity is likely going to need a little bit of luck on their side to have better than even odds against the committed criminal.

A capable person who has greater capacity is able to maximize the benefit of opportunity and time that capacity brings and as a result is unlikely to lose. As an example, if a crew of six bad guys busts into the house of a random family, that's going to be a bad day for the occupants. If one of the occupants of the house has taken the effort to attend high quality training on the defensive use of the shotgun, has selected good ammunition for the purpose of home defense, and has spent some time working on the skillsets presented in those classes, within seconds of the violent criminals breaking into the house you can expect that multiple members of the crew will lay paralyzed and rapidly bleeding to death from well-aimed buckshot payloads.

There may be more bad guys than there are shells in that defender's shotgun, but it is unlikely that the entire crew is made up of completely committed criminals who, after watching their accomplices blown to hell right in front of them, will insist on continuing to press the attack.

Or, to borrow a real world example, a police officer watching over a cartoon contest with a high-capacity sidearm who sees two islamist radicals roll up with long guns and immediately engages them with deliberate and lethally accurate fire is able to totally monopolize the critical opening seconds of the attack with his offensive action, thoroughly decimating them despite their advantage in numbers and firepower. Had he been armed with a J frame it is unlikely he would have been as successful.

Capacity isn't everything. But it's not nothing, either.

[Clark Jackson]

...In a day and age where multiple attackers in a self defense situation is far from an impossibility (or multiple feral dogs, etc), is 10+1 rounds on board really enough?...

Good question and it looks like there are fair amounts of good opinions/perspectives in the thread. I agree with everyone who mentioned the importance of obtaining high quality training and using the gun(s) with which you are most proficient. I also agree the election and results may drastically alter the equipment issue/debate. I would caution against any equipment changes if those changes involve moving off a potentially AWB-proof tool to one with verboten-status.

I have a personal rule (which I picked up from someone else) that may help you decide on your individual course of action.

My personal rule: Carry ≥ 15 rounds of ammunition with at least 1 reload.

No matter what you carry, you will have a minimum of 15 rounds and 1 reload (J-Frame = loaded gun and x2 reloads; G19 = loaded gun and 1 reload; etc.). The 1 reload minimum is not about capacity but the potential for malfunctions with the currently loaded ammunition or source of ammunition feed. Alternatively, this reload could be achieved with a back-up/secondary gun depending on your training, situation, and preferences.

Don't get lost in the weeds with some of the ageless "C-arguments": caliber, capacity, and c-this-one-time....

Stolen Quotes and Rando Stuff:

1) Accuracy is King.

2) Volume is Queen.

3) Figuring things out for yourself is the only freedom anyone really has. Use that freedom and make up your own mind. (yep, Starship Troopers quote y'all)

Good luck with your equipment selection and stay safe.

[TCinVA]

As for reloads:

It's uncommon for someone to be able to successfully reload a handgun in a typical fight. While some people can reload a semi-automatic pistol very quickly, generally it takes longer to get a pistol emptied in the fight reloaded and back into action than the remainder of the fight is going to last. Very few people run around in competition gear, and very few police officers or concealed carriers have cultivated the ability to get a pistol reloaded in under 3 seconds.

Having multiple reloads isn't a bad idea, but total rounds on your person isn't generally as relevant as how many rounds you have immediately on tap at kickoff. And, of course, whether or not you can put those rounds where they will do some good.

There are, of course, atypical fights and situations where multiple reloads and total round count on your person may become relevant.

[spinmove_]

As someone who’s bounced around from platform to platform too much, stick with what you can shoot best. If capacity really concerns you, find a way to carry more in the gun with as close to what you’re familiar with as possible. So if you’re rocking an HK 45C now maybe snag an HK USP 9 or 9C. Basically the same everything, you’re just going to a smaller chambering for more ammo on board. You may very well be able to shoot extremely well with a Glock, but I’d be willing to bet real money you’d be up and running even faster with a USP 9/9C.

With a handgun you’re just poking holes regardless of ammo selection. Just make sure you're able to poke holes exactly where you want them to go.

[Shawnw]

More important things to worry about:

How is your health?
Are you regularly doing strength training and cardio?
Do you have hand to hand self defense skills?
Are you constantly challenging yourself to be better than you were yesterday?

100% this. Every time I head into any gun store it’s evident immediately that the greatest threat to this demographic is not criminals/terrorist/active shooters, but heart disease and diabetes.

[blues]

I've trained with and carried, (on and off the job), J frames, K frames and Glocks for most all of 40 years...with a couple years here and there with Colt Gov't Model .45 and 3rd Gen S&W semi-auto.

I'm comfortable with the J frame revolver and Glocks and limit my EDC to one or the other depending if I'm home or away from home. Home and walking distance, (here in the "country"), the J frame gets the call.

Away from the house...a G26 and a reload gets 99% of the carry. (Larger capacity if I feel it warranted.)

I don't worry about an encounter, but I try to be prepared in case one finds me. I'd feel comfortable with ten rounds, but more comfortable with a reload in case of need for additional capacity, or the unlikely magazine issue.

[Leroy Suggs]

I've trained with and carried, (on and off the job), J frames, K frames and Glocks for most all of 40 years...with a couple years here and there with Colt Gov't Model .45 and 3rd Gen S&W semi-auto.

I'm comfortable with the J frame revolver and Glocks and limit my EDC to one or the other depending if I'm home or away from home. Home and walking distance, (here in the "country"), the J frame gets the call.

Away from the house...a G26 and a reload gets 99% of the carry. (Larger capacity if I feel it warranted.)

I don't worry about an encounter, but I try to be prepared in case one finds me. I'd feel comfortable with ten rounds, but more comfortable with a reload in case of need for additional capacity, or the unlikely magazine issue.

This is about what I do.
J frame around the place and a G26 with reload when I leave the place.
I do keep a G19 +2 with TLR 7A on the nightstand.

[TCinVA]

100% this. Every time I head into any gun store it’s evident immediately that the greatest threat to this demographic is not criminals/terrorist/active shooters, but heart disease and diabetes.

Heart disease, diabetes, and cancer are certainly a very prominent threat to the health of a large percentage of the population.

The CDC says that 655,000 people die from heart disease every year. Cancer kills another 599,000 every year. Diabetes kills 88,000. If we assume each of those is preventable in a single year with good health choices, that's roughly 1.3 million people who suffer because of their diet decisions.

Every year in the United States there are roughly 6 million violent crimes. That means 6 million+ people who suffer because a violent criminal imposed his will upon them, and that doesn't count the roughly 1.5 million instances of armed self defense that take place every year in the United States. There are roughly 6 million car accidents in the United States every year.

Please read that again: Violent crime is as common as car accidents in the United States.

People should certainly take care of themselves.

But this idea that the need to use a weapon in defense of your life is some sort of rare phenomenon is untrue. It is more common to be the victim of violent crime in the United States than it is to be diagnosed with cancer. If criminal violence hasn't touched your life or the life of your family and friends and it is rare in your community, you are blessed.

But if you really go looking you will likely find violent crime is more common in your community than you realize, and that assessments of the safety of the places you visit frequently are probably a lot less accurate than you imagine.

[tlong17]

I see no reason to change unless you’re ready and willing to spend the time, energy, and resources on upskilling with another weapon to be at the same level of skill as your current weapon.

[Brazos Dan]

I have Hk's in 3 calibers. I carry the P30 in .40 most of the time because it is somewhat lighter than my HK45. I'm just not totally comfortable with my VP9 because of the Glock/striker-type trigger that I consider unsafe and I feel less well-armed with the 9mm.

I think the .40 or .45 will take down as many or more "targets"
as the larger capacity 9mm due to a larger chunk of lead with the same latest developments in HP design.

I do carry the HK45 once in a while. Due to my preferred method of carry; OWB, shirt untucked, it conceals about as well as anything.

A side note: The Hk45 magazine WILL accept an 11th round.
Hk says not to do this, but I sometimes find I have inadvertantly loaded 11 because the round-count peep-holes in the mag only shows 9 rounds when loaded with 10.

I'm not advocating this, but if you are very concerned over around or two capacity, mag springs won't break the bank.

[SwampDweller]

Depends....
You've all given me a lot to think about. There's good reasoning on both sides. It sounds like I'm probably fine with 10 rounds, but the picture DocGKR posted really makes me think. Then again, with BehindBlueI's observations through experience, it sounds like it'd be hard to go wrong with 10 rounds in a pistol I'm very experienced with...

...Unfortunately I'm even less sure now.

As for cardio/strength, that is something I've been working on since the start of the year. It's amazing how much stamina you gain after doing the treadmill for an hour a day for six months. Still a lot of room for improvement.

ETA: There was something interesting touched on by a couple of people here: how the election results can affect all of this. It sounds like some think that it'd be smart to stick with a non-AWB-sanctioned (10 rounds or less capacity) weapon in case things take a turn for the worse, politically regarding the 2A. I haven't really thought about that. I sure don't want to have to register my every day carry pistol as an NFA weapon if a certain candidate gets his way.

[blues]

You've all given me a lot to think about. There's good reasoning on both sides. It sounds like I'm probably fine with 10 rounds, but the picture DocGKR posted really makes me think. Then again, with BehindBlueI's observations through experience, it sounds like it'd be hard to go wrong with 10 rounds in a pistol I'm very experienced with...

...Unfortunately I'm even less sure now.

As for cardio/strength, that is something I've been working on since the start of the year. It's amazing how much stamina you gain after doing the treadmill for an hour a day for six months.

You shouldn't be, imho. I think you're good to go...

[Navin Johnson]

Training often answers capacity questions.

Few people carry less ammo/lower capacity after being involved in dynamic skill tests.

[GAP]

Heart disease, diabetes, and cancer are certainly a very prominent threat to the health of a large percentage of the population.

The CDC says that 655,000 people die from heart disease every year. Cancer kills another 599,000 every year. Diabetes kills 88,000. If we assume each of those is preventable in a single year with good health choices, that's roughly 1.3 million people who suffer because of their diet decisions.

Every year in the United States there are roughly 6 million violent crimes. That means 6 million+ people who suffer because a violent criminal imposed his will upon them, and that doesn't count the roughly 1.5 million instances of armed self defense that take place every year in the United States. There are roughly 6 million car accidents in the United States every year.

Please read that again: Violent crime is as common as car accidents in the United States.

People should certainly take care of themselves.

But this idea that the need to use a weapon in defense of your life is some sort of rare phenomenon is untrue. It is more common to be the victim of violent crime in the United States than it is to be diagnosed with cancer. If criminal violence hasn't touched your life or the life of your family and friends and it is rare in your community, you are blessed.

But if you really go looking you will likely find violent crime is more common in your community than you realize, and that assessments of the safety of the places you visit frequently are probably a lot less accurate than you imagine.

Where are you seeing 6 million? I am seeing 1.2 million violent crimes.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2018-crime-statistics

“In 2018, there were an estimated 1,206,836 violent crimes.“

[blues]

Interesting info:


Most crimes are not reported to police, and most reported crimes are not solved. In its annual survey, BJS asks victims of crime whether they reported that crime to police. In 2018, only 43% of violent crimes tracked by BJS were reported to police. And in the much more common category of property crime, only about a third (34%) were reported. There are a variety of reasons crime might not be reported, including a feeling that police “would not or could not do anything to help” or that the crime is “a personal issue or too trivial to report,” according to BJS.

Most of the crimes that are reported to police, meanwhile, are not solved, at least based on an FBI measure known as the “clearance rate.” That’s the share of cases each year that are closed, or “cleared,” through the arrest, charging and referral of a suspect for prosecution (or through “exceptional means,” such as the death of a suspect or a victim’s refusal to cooperate with a prosecution). In 2018, police nationwide cleared 46% of violent crimes that were reported to them. For property crimes, the national clearance rate was 18%.



https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

[TheNewbie]

I worked with a guy who carried a S&W 329PD on duty, with two speed loaders. That’s 18 rounds of full power 44 magnum loads.

Was that enough? Idk, but I would take him, his abilities and his mindset in a fight over most people with “hi capacity” magazines.

[RevolverRob]

If one evaluates violent crime rate on a per-capita basis. The most populous areas of our country tend to have violent crime rates of 1-2%. I would imagine that this trend holds true across the country, though acquiring the statistics to figure this out are all but impossible.

Still, there are 330 million people in the US. A 1% violent crime rate would be ~3.3 million violent crime incidents and a 2% rate would be 6.6 million.

I am not inclined, at all, to believe the United States has a sub-1% violent crime rate overall, at 1.5 million violent crime incidents we would be below 0.5%, which would make us the least violent, large country in the world. If that were true, we would be a model of efficiency and criminal standards globally. Countries with comparable demographics to the US all hover around a 1-2% rate. I'm inclined to believe numbers from ~3-6 million violent crimes committed in the US as viable numbers.

While the sample is skewed, the number of people here on P-F who are not in law enforcement and yet have been victims of violent crime, further indicates to me that a low number like 1.5 million incidents annually is simply not correct.

[TCinVA]

Where are you seeing 6 million? I am seeing 1.2 million violent crimes.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2018-crime-statistics

“In 2018, there were an estimated 1,206,836 violent crimes.“

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41719-Paranoid-Hardly


Here is something I have been preaching about for years. It’s nice to see the same theme appear in a mainstream publication. This article appeared recently in The Federalist.https://thefederalist.com/2020/04/08/why-owning-a-gun-is-a-completely-rational-insurance-policy-against-danger/

The basic premise of the article is that it is NOT paranoid or irrational to carry a firearm for self defense. Here is a small bit of that author’s data on the subject.

In 2017, 2.7 million Americans were injured in 6.4 million car crashes.

In 2018, 3.3 million Americans age 12 or older were the victim of one of the 6 million violent crimes. So, your odds of being involved in a violent crime are higher than your odds of being involved in an automobile accident. In this light, carrying a handgun is just like wearing a seatbelt. Good read.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32345-TCinVA-on-Ballistic-Radio/page2


Rob- I’ll save you the trouble of looking for a check.

The problem lies in the source of various statistics. After spending 25 years in patrol or investigative work I can tell you there is far more violent crime, and violent crime against completely innocent victims, than you imagine.

Part of the confusion comes from the adoption of “incident based reporting” some time ago. In the past, under “offense based reporting” if a subject robbed 5 people at gunpoint, that was five armed robberies. Now it is one armed robbery. So, the armed robbery rate is now lower.

The FBI UCR report lists total crimes each year, using the incident based reporting model. Another problem is that the UCR system is voluntary—police agencies are not required to report all or any data to the FBI. Thus, their totals are way, way under-reported. The UCR shows about 12,500 murders a year in recent years, while experts think the actual number of criminal homicides in the US is closer to 40,000 a year. The same under-reporting applies to other violent crimes.

The Bureau of Justice Statistics is a part of the Justice Department, separate from the FBI. According to the BJS, in the US in 2006 there were 5,585,620 violent crimes. For that year, the BJS lists 1,209,730 Aggravated Assaults. A majority of those would probably justify a lethal self defense response. The BJS says there were 255,630 Forcible Rapes in 2006. The 2011 numbers rose to 5.8 million, one for every 30 adults.

In Memphis alone in 2013 there were 154 homicides. That number sounds like low odds. That is because of a very busy and very proficient Class 1 Trauma Center there, who treated 3,100 people for gunshots in 2013 alone. In Memphis in 2013 there were 9,165 Aggravated Assaults, according to the MPD, which is an average of 25.1 per day.

I’ve had dozens of students involved in legitimate self defense shootings. These are people with clean records and who possess handgun carry permits. They were typically going about their daily routine when attacked.

https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=6686





The number of violent-crime victims age 12 or older rose from 2.7 million in 2015 to 3.3 million in 2018, an increase of 604,000 victims.
The portion of white persons age 12 or older who were victims of violent crime increased from 0.96% in 2015 to 1.19% in 2018 (up 24%), while the portion of males who were victims increased from 0.94% to 1.21% (up 29%).
The rate of violent victimizations not reported to police rose from 9.5 per 1,000 persons age 12 or older in 2015 to 12.9 per 1,000 in 2018, while the rate of violent victimizations reported to police showed no statistically significant change.
The number of violent incidents increased from 5.2 million in 2017 to 6.0 million in 2018

[jh9]

what is commonly called Boarding House Rules- everybody gets firsts, before anyone gets seconds

AKA Vickers/Hackathorn/Wilson/IDPA's "tactical sequence".

Does anyone still teach that?

[kitchen's mill]

The 5 is 1, 10 is 2, 15 is 3 arguement is flawed.

The first gun fight Bob Stasch was in was with a little 135lb man with a knife, no drugs or alcohol in his system.

If I remember right the little man took 15 rounds and was still fighting as they stuffed him into an ambulance.

6 hits with a .45 Colt, 5 +p .38 lswchp, 4 .44 magnum.

Statistics are good, I hope the stats that I'll be killed in a car wreck each day are low, otherwise I might quit driving.

But I still buckle my seat belt when I take off.

I carry a gun too and I'm glad the stats show I probably won't need it.......

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

AKA Vickers/Hackathorn/Wilson/IDPA's "tactical sequence".

Does anyone still teach that?

We practice this regularly at our outdoor range. We add varieties, such as: Starting from the holster while confronting verbally. The caller will call out a sequence to surprise you. Perhaps- silhouette 1, 4, 3 to the head... then we back up 2 steps at low ready for a couple more surprise calls. We call this Confrontations.

Another exercise starts from walking along. The caller calls out the targets and actions... One hand draw to 4, charge 2, retreat 1, etc. We walk in 4 different directions. We call this Strolling.

We practice starting from arm twists, head-locks, knife attacks, etc..

These are a few examples, but many of our exercises are based on being taken by surprise from different directions with multiple opponents. It is lots of fun and will make you agile with your pistol.

This ties into an opinion about using the same pistol (or exact stunt double) as your carry pistol. Instinctive point and feel for that pistol will get you on target faster and more consistently. Effectiveness under adrenaline rush and unfamiliarity is enhanced by knowing your pistol like it is a natural part of your hand.

[HCM]

I have Hk's in 3 calibers. I carry the P30 in .40 most of the time because it is somewhat lighter than my HK45. I'm just not totally comfortable with my VP9 because of the Glock/striker-type trigger that I consider unsafe and I feel less well-armed with the 9mm.

I think the .40 or .45 will take down as many or more "targets"
as the larger capacity 9mm due to a larger chunk of lead with the same latest developments in HP design.

I do carry the HK45 once in a while. Due to my preferred method of carry; OWB, shirt untucked, it conceals about as well as anything.

A side note: The Hk45 magazine WILL accept an 11th round.
Hk says not to do this, but I sometimes find I have inadvertantly loaded 11 because the round-count peep-holes in the mag only shows 9 rounds when loaded with 10.

I'm not advocating this, but if you are very concerned over around or two capacity, mag springs won't break the bank.

Not picking on you but you raise some common issues that are relevant to the OPsquestion.
I’m going to work backwards here. Studying gunfights and training people as part of my job a few basic principles have emerged:

- the most important factor in gun selection is reliability. The extra space in the HK45 mag is there to allow the spring to work properly, this is why HK mags, while some of the most reliable tend to have lower capacity. There is no free lunch. Squeezing in an extra round defeats the margin of reliability that is the whole reason to select HK. This is true of jamming extra rounds into any mag such as 31 rounds into PMAGS etc. The importance of reliability is why I continue to carry an optional Glock vs the P320, even though I shoot the P320 a little better.

There is more to gunfighting than marksmanship and terminal ballistics. Based on both studies and 30 plus people I have personally seen shot terminal ballistics comes down to little to no difference in effects of service handgun rounds; One shot stops (THE holy grail back in the 89s/early 90s) are not really a thing with handguns. Tom Givens comments about the 1911 being a two bad guy gun etc are on point. Shot placement is, IME the determinant factor in terminal ballistic effectiveness. The late Finn Aagard’s quote about “shot placement being 90% of killing power” based on his experience in both Kenya’s Mau Mau insurgence and as a professional hunter match’s my experiences.

Given the necessity of good shot placement, the fact that opponents move and that your fight will be what it is, not what you want it to be Givens calculus of 3-4 rounds per opponent is spot on. Among those lines more than one bad guy (or wild animal) is not an uncommon scenario so the split times for multiple shots two handed and the ability to hit in an accurate and timely fashion one handed are both real factors. As are unusual body positions etc.

As DMWINCLE pointed out many people base their perception of what is effective on two handed slow fire shooting from standing and it can give a false perception of effectiveness in comparison to actual conditions.

Does this mean you will get “kilt in da streets” with a .40 or .45 HK ? No, I’ve carried both as duty guns, but you should but understand the calculus of the decision you are making.

[GAP]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41719-Paranoid-Hardly



https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32345-TCinVA-on-Ballistic-Radio/page2



https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=6686


[/LIST]

Oh, ok I went with the FBI...

[blues]

Oh, ok I went with the FBI...

Oh, you're the one...


;)

[LockedBreech]

There's an DA's office investigator who works with my office. Great guy on the later end of his career. Former patrol officer, then SWAT, has been in two gunfights and lived through them, goes to extensive training every year both as a hobby and as a lifetime practice being in two gunfights has made him follow. He carries a Commander-size 1911 that is heavily worn from high round practice and has been worked over and checked on by high rated gunsmiths multiple times, and a Wilson mag reload, sometimes two. I typically carry a Gen 5 Glock 19 with a spare magazine sometimes, two.

So, he carries 7+1 and 7-14 extra rounds. I carry 15+1 and 15-30 extra rounds.

This dude trains so much, and has such experience to back it up, I firmly believe he's worth five of me in terms of actual combat-stress shooting.

10+1 with a regular training regimen and reload(s) is more than enough, and you being comfortable/skilled with the platform means it's the right move.

[BehindBlueI's]

Having multiple reloads isn't a bad idea, but total rounds on your person isn't generally as relevant as how many rounds you have immediately on tap at kickoff. And, of course, whether or not you can put those rounds where they will do some good.

There are, of course, atypical fights and situations where multiple reloads and total round count on your person may become relevant.

In complete honestly, I carry a reload primarily for the psychological aspect. I feel better knowing that after the shooting is over I can return my gun to it's normal carry state. It's both some sort of symbolic returning to normal after the abnormal and a feeling of being prepared for the unexpected again. It's as useful as a security blanket, but it doesn't cost me anything. Carrying a tourniquet is orders of magnitudes more likely to be useful for something other then me feeling better, and honestly since the RAT things have been shown to be sub-par I've really slacked on that.



Every year in the United States there are roughly 6 million violent crimes. That means 6 million+ people who suffer because a violent criminal imposed his will upon them

No, not any more then it means there's 6 million violent criminals as it's not a one to one ratio. Especially when you consider roughly 2/3 of violent crime is committed between people that know each other much of that number is between serial offenders and serial victims. Abused children and spouses, fights between drunken 'buddies', etc.

Of the roughly 1/3 of "stranger" violence, there's still serial victims. Me, for example, and others who are listed as victims repeatedly due to their occupation. I've been listed as "victim" for battery more times then I remember, pointing a firearm, and had the one fellow not died as a result, attempt murder.

Prisoners also perpetrate violence on other prisoners at fairly high rates and I don't believe those numbers strip out the violent crimes that occur in jails and prisons.

So while the numbers suck, and suck more for some then others as it's pretty intuitive a young minority gang member or the local trailer park girl just getting hooked on heroin are more likely to be victims then upper middle class white suburban males, they aren't as bad as they might look at first glance *if* your concern is strangers.

[Guerrero]

On a tangent, it's because of the responses from people like BehindBlueI's and TCinVA that P-F is the only gun forum I read. You can't get that quality anywhere else.

[revchuck38]

SwampDweller- FWIW, in solidarity with you I switched to my mid-size M&P45 today. I ain’t skeered. :)

[blues]

SwampDweller- FWIW, in solidarity with you I switched to my mid-size M&P45 today. I ain’t skeered. :)

Didja mean skeert? :cool:

[kitchen's mill]

In complete honestly, I carry a reload primarily for the psychological aspect. I feel better knowing that after the shooting is over I can return my gun to it's normal carry state. It's both some sort of symbolic returning to normal after the abnormal and a feeling of being prepared for the unexpected again. It's as useful as a security blanket, but it doesn't cost me anything. Carrying a tourniquet is orders of magnitudes more likely to be useful for something other then me feeling better, and honestly since the RAT things have been shown to be sub-par I've really slacked on that.




No, not any more then it means there's 6 million violent criminals as it's not a one to one ratio. Especially when you consider roughly 2/3 of violent crime is committed between people that know each other much of that number is between serial offenders and serial victims. Abused children and spouses, fights between drunken 'buddies', etc.

Of the roughly 1/3 of "stranger" violence, there's still serial victims. Me, for example, and others who are listed as victims repeatedly due to their occupation. I've been listed as "victim" for battery more times then I remember, pointing a firearm, and had the one fellow not died as a result, attempt murder.

Prisoners also perpetrate violence on other prisoners at fairly high rates and I don't believe those numbers strip out the violent crimes that occur in jails and prisons.

So while the numbers suck, and suck more for some then others as it's pretty intuitive a young minority gang member or the local trailer park girl just getting hooked on heroin are more likely to be victims then upper middle class white suburban males, they aren't as bad as they might look at first glance *if* your concern is strangers.

I carry a reload, better to have than to need.

Also a tourniquet in the civilian world,if body armor is seldom worn, is likely not as useful as a chest seal.

Just a thought.....

[Wondering Beard]

In complete honestly, I carry a reload primarily for the psychological aspect. I feel better knowing that after the shooting is over I can return my gun to it's normal carry state. It's both some sort of symbolic returning to normal after the abnormal and a feeling of being prepared for the unexpected again. It's as useful as a security blanket, but it doesn't cost me anything. Carrying a tourniquet is orders of magnitudes more likely to be useful for something other then me feeling better, and honestly since the RAT things have been shown to be sub-par I've really slacked on that.


There's that, but another reason to carry a reload, and the one that holds for me, is malfunction reduction.

I assume that if I'm going to be attacked, it's likely to turn ugly and Murphy's Law always applies. I'm far more likely, I imagine, to have to work on a malfunction than to have to reload due to a continuing firefight.

[Dave T]

If 10+ rounds isn't enough one wonders why p-f even has a revolver section. What ever can they be thinking!!!

Dave

[AMC]

I carry a reload, better to have than to need.

Also a tourniquet in the civilian world,if body armor is seldom worn, is likely not as useful as a chest seal.

Just a thought.....

To your OP....yes. And carry a reload or two.

I would rethink the tourniquet vs. Chest seal thing. I've seen several people bleed out in the street in years past in minutes from extremity arterial wounds (femoral hits). Never seen someone die in the street from a tension pneumothorax before they could get to definitive care. Just my 2 cents.

[HCM]

If 10+ rounds isn't enough one wonders why p-f even has a revolver section. What ever can they be thinking!!!

Dave

It’s worth noting that when revolvers were the standard serious people usually carried 2 or 3 of them.

Context matters and while Tom Givens 2 bad guy gun quote applies I believe he also has a quote about “look for trouble guns” vs “get out of trouble guns” which applies as well.

[TGS]

To your OP....yes. And carry a reload or two.

I would rethink the tourniquet vs. Chest seal thing. I've seen several people bleed out in the street in years past in minutes from extremity arterial wounds (femoral hits). Never seen someone die in the street from a tension pneumothorax before they could get to definitive care. Just my 2 cents.

100%. While there's a higher incidence of chest wall penetrations in domestic shootings compared to OCONUS military operations, extremity hits are still a thing. Massive hemorrhage will kill you in 3-5 minutes, sometimes quicker if you're unlucky. A tension pneumo will take more like 15 minutes, and in the context of domestic shootings is more likely 45+ minutes.

In addition, if I have the faculties to treat my own sucking chest wound (which is unlikely, if we're talking real word here), I can fashion an effective chest seal much easier and much more quickly than I can fashion an effective improvised tourniquet.

[SwampDweller]

SwampDweller- FWIW, in solidarity with you I switched to my mid-size M&P45 today. I ain’t skeered. :)

Haha nice!

[SwampDweller]

I've been thinking about it and going over the perspectives given here. To me, it looks like there's a few choices. In addition to the Glock and HK45C, I do have an old Beretta 92S I got for a steal a few years ago. I've never carried it and haven't shot it nearly as much as my HK45C (and a bit less than my G19), but yesterday I went to the range and shot all three. I shot more accurately with the HK45C than both of the other pistols in slow, concentrated fire. In draw/shoot rapid fire, I did better with the Beretta than both the HK45C and the G19. Should I consider getting something like a new production 92/M9 series? In terms of grip length, it's about the same as my Hk45C with the 10 round elephant foot magazine.

This seems like a contender because:
(a). It holds 15 (or even 17 with modern mags) rounds
(b). It has lower recoil, I get faster and more accurate follow up shots (in rapid fire only)
(c). Under normal circumstances, 9mm is cheaper (though .45 is more available to me right now and I have more of it)

[JAH 3rd]

Confidence and accuracy count for more than round count and bullet size.

This point can't be overstated. Shoot what you shoot best and practice. Confidence with your skill set coupled with confidence in your pistol and secondary equipment is the sweet spot. Each of us like what we like for reasons that may be different from what others may think. And that's ok. We are all unique in our likes and dislikes.

As I have said before, I would rather have a hit on my target with a .22 than a miss with any other caliber.

[BehindBlueI's]

I carry a reload, better to have than to need.

Also a tourniquet in the civilian world,if body armor is seldom worn, is likely not as useful as a chest seal.

Just a thought.....

We've applied a lot of tourniquets and not a lot of chest seals, and while I get where you're coming from if you're talking a general "you or somebody around you gets hurt" vs strictly "getting shot" I think the TQ is by far the more applicable for most people.

[claymore504]

I think 10+1 is just fine. As others have stated, training is key. However, if 10+1 does not make you feel comfortable, then cary a spare mag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_oplLeNDA

[Nephrology]

We've applied a lot of tourniquets and not a lot of chest seals, and while I get where you're coming from if you're talking a general "you or somebody around you gets hurt" vs strictly "getting shot" I think the TQ is by far the more applicable for most people.

Yes. Tension pneumothorax is very uncommon (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658372/) pre-hospital. It is much more commonly found among ventilated patients where it evolves as a consequence of iatrogenic barotrauma.

It can and does happen, of course, but its incidence is overstated in the tactical medical gear world. Tourniquets are substantially more useful and probably save lives close to every day (https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2018/tourniquet040418) in this country - hence the national "Stop the Bleed" campaign.

[BrassSlapper]

Honestly, if 30+ rounds isn't going to handle the issue... Not sure your H&K's the right tool for the job. Might need an M134.... All sarcasm aside though, it should be more than adequate. I'm still a firm believer in the less rounds fired the better. You should focus more on accuracy, consistency and grouping, and confidence with the weapon. I'd always bet on the guy who is confident and accurate with his six shooter wheelgun than someone who's unsure and hesitant with a double stack 9mm. Just my two cents.

[Guerrero]

Yes. Tension pneumothorax is very uncommon (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658372/) pre-hospital. It is much more commonly found among ventilated patients where it evolves as a consequence of iatrogenic barotrauma.

It can and does happen, of course, but its incidence is overstated in the tactical medical gear world. Tourniquets are substantially more useful and probably save lives close to every day (https://www.facs.org/media/press-releases/2018/tourniquet040418) in this country - hence the national "Stop the Bleed" campaign.

...aaaaand there we go with the facts and knowledge again. You guys.

[BigT]

The times I've needed a pistol how well I could shoot it was a much bigger deal than how many beans it held. Weirdly its only with time that , that has become more clear. I would have zero issue carrying the HK45C if you shoot it well. Shit I carry a ten shot G48 a lot of the time in a place a lot more dangerous than even 2020 America.

[Navin Johnson]

The OP is turning this into a "is a Glock 21s reliable" or "is a 9 mm enough" thread.

Glorified mailman under a different name.

On other forums this is done to start arguments and fights the differences here is people actually give honest information.

[revchuck38]

The OP is turning this into a "is a Glock 21s reliable" or "is a 9 mm enough" thread.

Glorified mailman under a different name.

On other forums this is done to start arguments and fights the differences here is people actually give honest information.

Disagree. To me it looks like he’s trying to figure this out for himself and is looking for information from trusted sources. Which, as you’ve noted, is what he’s getting.

[flyrodr]

I live in suburban America, where the sun is always shining. And I carry because the headlines don't necessarily reflect that view. But what I think I've decided is that, aside from the need for accuracy, how one carries, i.e., being able to get the weapon into action quickly, is much more important than the number of rounds.

Being retired, with young grandkids around usually at least a couple of days a week, it's tough to carry IWB/AIWB 'cause I'm always having to pick one of them up, or bend over or get on the floor. So pocket carry is how I usually carry. And I use a red dot because of old eyes.

Given the above, it can be tough to access my gun and draw it quickly. I have to make sure I wear shorts (mostly) or pants (when I have to) that have a pocket that allows that. And a holster that facilitates the draw, while retaining the pistol.

My normal pistol holds 10+1 of 9mm. But, as stated above, I spend a lot more time making sure I can draw it smoothly/quickly, and shoot it accurately/quickly than I do worrying about the number of rounds. YMMV, etc.

[Clusterfrack]

As usual, I'm late to this party. I was trying to decide if I had anything useful to add. I agree that the G19 and HK45c are both good choices for a CCW, so picking the one that you like best is the way to go.

Here are my personal thoughts on this question. Most of the time, I carry a 9mm CZ P-07 with 15+1. I have some Glock 19s, and could be happy carrying them. However, I prefer the P-07 because it's a DA/SA gun, and the ergos work for me slightly better than the Glock. 15+1 9mm guns are just the right size balancing ergos and concealability. I can't shoot a G43 as well as a 19. I can shoot a P-07 nearly as well as a Shadow2.

I do not love .45 ACP, and don't own guns in that caliber anymore. It adds recoil and blast, and reduces capacity for no useful reason. As well, ammo is more expensive and heavier. But these are minor issues, and I wouldn't lose any sleep if I were forced to carry a Glock or HK in .45.

One think I like about a 15+1 gun is that I can carry it without a spare magazine and feel well-prepared. When I carry lower cap guns, I always have spare ammo.

[newyork]

As usual, I'm late to this party. I was trying to decide if I had anything useful to add. I agree that the G19 and HK45c are both good choices for a CCW, so picking the one that you like best is the way to go.

Here are my personal thoughts on this question. Most of the time, I carry a 9mm CZ P-07 with 15+1. I have some Glock 19s, and could be happy carrying them. However, I prefer the P-07 because it's a DA/SA gun, and the ergos work for me slightly better than the Glock. 15+1 9mm guns are just the right size balancing ergos and concealability. I can't shoot a G43 as well as a 19. I can shoot a P-07 nearly as well as a Shadow2.

I do not love .45 ACP, and don't own guns in that caliber anymore. It adds recoil and blast, and reduces capacity for no useful reason. As well, ammo is more expensive and heavier. But these are minor issues, and I wouldn't lose any sleep if I were forced to carry a Glock or HK in .45.

One think I like about a 15+1 gun is that I can carry it without a spare magazine and feel well-prepared. When I carry lower cap guns, I always have spare ammo.

Just curious, if you weren’t in a free state and we’re limited to 10+1, would your choice of P-07 change? Would you still prefer a mid size 9 but with neutered mags, or would .45 be more tempting to you?

[RAM Engineer]

Just curious, if you weren’t in a free state and we’re limited to 10+1, would your choice of P-07 change? Would you still prefer a mid size 9 but with neutered mags, or would .45 be more tempting to you?

Personally, I wouldn't step up to a more "blasty" caliber just because my capacity was reduced. That would just slow down my shot-to-shot recovery times for negligible terminal ballistic improvements.

[Clusterfrack]

Just curious, if you weren’t in a free state and we’re limited to 10+1, would your choice of P-07 change? Would you still prefer a mid size 9 but with neutered mags, or would .45 be more tempting to you?

That's a great question, and one that I've considered often because we are constantly threatened with mag bans in Oregon.

The answer is really easy for me: I would take a P-07 with 10+1 of 9mm hands down over a similar gun in .45 or .40. But, I would always carry a spare mag instead of sometimes.

Even for backcountry bear defense, I almost always carry a P-07 (with Lehigh XP) instead of my 10mm Glock20.

But, that's just me. And not very surprising given that I shot over 30,000 rounds of 9mm last year.

[TheNewbie]

That's a great question, and one that I've considered often because we are constantly threatened with mag bans in Oregon.

The answer is really easy for me: I would take a P-07 with 10+1 of 9mm hands down over a similar gun in .45 or .40. But, I would always carry a spare mag instead of sometimes.

Even for backcountry bear defense, I almost always carry a P-07 (with Lehigh XP) instead of my 10mm Glock20.

But, that's just me. And not very surprising given that I shot over 30,000 rounds of 9mm last year.


If CZ made da/sa equivalent of the G43 or G43x, then I would say absolutely 6+1/10+1 is enough!

Imagine if the P-07 had been released in the 90s or early 2000s it would be so much more popular. If I had to choose a gun for an organization, and I knew I could get parts and service on that level, the P-07 would be a real option.

It’s an amazing weapon.

[JonInWA]

Over the years, the more I study and review, the less enamored I am with capacity as a deciding criteria. What's more critical, at least from my point of view, is ergonomics and ease/speed of reloadability. I remember when Doc GKR and I had a massive thread years ago on the viability of a revolver against multiple targets (especially in low or shifting/contrasty lighting conditions) we pretty much collectively decided that a semi-auto was a far better choice-primarily due to reloadability-capacity was then a criteria, but somewhat of a secondary one.

Today, I have my 4" GP100 with 3 speedloader reloads (I've found that a Tactical Tailor phone case with a velcro flap nicely accommodates these, and is actually surprisingly concealable with some judicious garment choices (Hawaiian shirts, vests, jackets). BUT I'm predominantly in an office today, or in environments that I'm somewhat in control of. If the scenario switches to dusk/night/low light, the 6-shot revo might not be the best of choices, due to the skill-set and manipulations needed to eject expended cartridges and reload. Virtually any semi-auto will trump a revolver in that scenario.

I always carry at least one reloading device-to effect a reload if I run dry(unlikely), to restore the gun to full capacity after the situation is resolved, or to eject a magazine if there's a malfunction/jam, and immediately restore the situation to both functionality and full capacity.

In most EDC situations I'm likely to experience, I feel fine with a 6 round capacity and 1-2 reloads; for duty, I'll go with a higher capacity semi-auto, with 1-2 reloads (usually 2) But I'm fine with a 7 round .45 1911, a 12-13 round .40, or a 10-17 round 9mm. Ands a non-lethal option (OC).

If I had to use my Glock G17 or G19 with RELIABLE 10 round magazines, I'd be perfectly comfortable in doing so, because of their ergonomics and my established competence with them.

I have a more than sneaking suspicion that there's something to the concept that having a gun with a relatively limited capacity (revolver, 1911, limited capacity semi-auto) forces one to both consciously and subconsciously really focus on making effective shots, as opposed to a tendency to utilize/default to a higher volume of fire.

Best, Jon

[45dotACP]

I have a more than sneaking suspicion that there's something to the concept that having a gun with a relatively limited capacity (revolver, 1911, limited capacity semi-auto) forces one to both consciously and subconsciously really focus on making effective shots, as opposed to a tendency to utilize/default to a higher volume of fire.

Best, Jon

I think there's something to that.

Personally, my guns capacity means less to me than does my ability to carry it comfortably, conceal it effectively, deploy it quickly and shoot it accurately. After that is the concern of having a gun with enough capacity to keep me in the fight for longer than the other guy can withstand.

I mostly carry a G19 sized gun (CZ P-07) because it's easier than my full sized TDA option and a 15 round magazine is just it's ordinary capacity. However, I live in Cook County IL and you can get in trouble for having mags that hold more than 10 rounds so I carry neutered mags. No big deal to me. I do carry a spare mag.

I like the idea of a smaller carry gun in case I'm involved in some sort of physical fight. I carry appendix and some guns are so damn big I can barely tie my shoe without getting them dug into my guts. It would hamper my ability to fight to be carrying such a gun. I need at least some degree of mobility if I am to hit a takedown, throw a hard punch, utilize a strong judo throw etc...to say nothing of a grappling scenario where I may need to get past legs, use hip pressure, or shrimp out of a position.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[mmc45414]

One think I like about a 15+1 gun is that I can carry it without a spare magazine and feel well-prepared. When I carry lower cap guns, I always have spare ammo.
I will admit to this also. If I decide to carry a 1911 I am pretty diligent about the spare ammo, M&P (typically) not so much. I say typically because when people are rioting or going batshit for TP or otherwise being squirrely I get a little more squirrely, or is that spider sense?...

And another thing about being more standardized is I have plenty of magazines that fit all three sizes of 9mm M&P I would be carrying and there is a spare in a carrier with a simple quick clip in both vehicles.

And yeah it is important for more than just ammo capacity, but I am just an aging suburban schumk going about my life. If I actually meet my demise from running out of ammo when I stopped for beer you can make fun of me, I won't care if I am dead. :cool:

[feudist]

Someone mentioned it earlier that a significant reason for carrying a spare mag is malfunction reduction.

Another use case for high capacity is that in the zero sum compressed time competition of a gunfight the only rounds that will affect the outcome are those

in the gun. Stipulating those two conditions, a strong argument can be made for a hi-cap pistol and a spare mag together.

But that's simply not possible for a lot of people all the time.

Hence the near unanimous response in this thread that skill, awareness and a cool head will trump most anything.

Also, the primary attribute of a handgun is it's presence.

Rule 1.

[SwampDweller]

I'm going to stick with the HK45C for now. This weekend I'm going to go out with a shot timer and IDPA targets and do some Bill Drills with the HK, Glock, and Beretta.

[GAP]

I'm going to stick with the HK45C for now. This weekend I'm going to go out with a shot timer and IDPA targets and do some Bill Drills with the HK, Glock, and Beretta.

They’re all fine weapons!

Run a bunch of El Presidente if you can. The transitions should give you more data than just straight Bills.

[spinmove_]

They’re all fine weapons!

Run a bunch of El Presidente if you can. The transitions should give you more data than just straight Bills.

Bill Drills and El Prez is good. I’d also do B8s at 25yds to see what you can do as well as run The Super Test. If you have some ammo left over, Ben Stoeger’s Doubles Drill definitely shows you what you can do to better fine tune your grip.

[SiriusBlunder]

I'm going to stick with the HK45C for now. This weekend I'm going to go out with a shot timer and IDPA targets and do some Bill Drills with the HK, Glock, and Beretta.

Maybe add some one handed shooting with something simple like the failure drill if you have enough time/ammo. Shooting SHO and WHO on a timer and comparing the results between .45/.40/9mm runs was also very revealing to me.

[Jason M]

Add some one handed draws (not using support hand to clear the cover garment) and one hand stoppage clearance on the timer too.

[SwampDweller]

Maybe add some one handed shooting with something simple like the failure drill if you have enough time/ammo. Shooting SHO and WHO on a timer and comparing the results between .45/.40/9mm runs was also very revealing to me.

I think I know what was revealed to you, but would you mind elaborating? Just curious. One thing is that I frequently deal with medium sized animals.

[SiriusBlunder]

I think I know what was revealed to you, but would you mind elaborating? Just curious. One thing is that I frequently deal with medium sized animals.

My group size and times with multiple shots/target transitions with the larger calibers really sucked compared to 9mm one handed, as opposed to just sucking two handed. :-)

BTW, I'm not saying an HK45C is a bad EDC choice, especially since I don't know all the details of your situation, just that there's multiple components to "shooting better" when deciding what to carry that many overlook, myself included. Compromises and trade-offs. Your concern about multiple attackers made me think you are primarily concerned about carry in an urban/suburban environment, but that may be completely off.

I live in a relatively safe suburb, but spend 20+ hours hiking/week outside of town in either the desert or mountains. The largest 4 legged animal threat in the wild here is mountain lion. I usually carry my EDC 9mm with barrier blind ammo from DocGKR's list (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo). I'm basing this on DocGKR's advice (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25291-9mm-Outdoor-Load&p=595543&viewfull=1#post595543):


In the lower 48 states, any good duty handgun load which works against auto windshields should be fine for most threats.

I sometimes use my MP40 FS with 180 grain Gold Dots as my outdoor gun for "reasons", mostly feelings/economic ones.

I see no issue having a different outdoor handgun or load if situation dictates. Mission drives the gear train and all that. Having said this, there are folks here that have way more experience defending against animals. There are outdoor guns/ammo load threads here that can provide lots of good info and insight.

[Hunter Rose]

I'll say no, capacity matters. I love 45,I love the 1911, and I love HK USPs. I tried all last year to convince myself capacity doesn't matter, as long as it was around 10rds total in the gun. But when the P30 is the same size as the HK45C, yet the P30 holds 9 more rds in a loaded pistol (and all those rds have less recoil), I think that is significant.

I'm back to a 9mm P30 over 45 for carry.

[JAD]

I carry guns that conceal well enough to permit me to carry them all the time. That’s important.

I carry guns that are in a service caliber, that is consistently capable of producing adequate terminal effect for a pistol. That’s important.

I carry the guns I shoot best, measured by repeated performance on different days through tests that emphasize the rapid and precise placement of two or three rounds at varying but realistic distances. That’s really, really important. For me, time from the holster to a high probability hit on a B8 bull at 10 yards is ~money.~

Given all that, I carry as much capacity as I can. I carry a reload even though I don’t think they’re very important for a single stack, because I can, and I do not carry a reload for a double stack because I find comfortable concealment difficult.

In winter I can and do carry a G17 much of the time.

In summer I usually carry a lightweight commander.

I feel equally well armed with each because my measured performance with each is very comparable.

I occasionally carry a G43 or a J frame. I am aware that this is a poor choice ~~ not because of their capacity, but because of reduced performance (of me, and especially for the J, of the cartridge). This is usually a failure to dress around the gun. Adding 2” to my chest circumference and reducing my belly made a significant difference in reducing occurrence of that minor failure.

[Bergeron]

I carry the guns I shoot best, measured by repeated performance on different days through tests that emphasize the rapid and precise placement of two or three rounds at varying but realistic distances. That’s really, really important. For me, time from the holster to a high probability hit on a B8 bull at 10 yards is ~money.~


The last time I was concerned that I might be facing a real and imminent threat, my pistol was the exact same gun I had shot in a match two days ago, and again a week before that, with range trips before and in between. Knowing what my capabilities were, and what I would have had to do to make the shots provided a useful mood.

Nothing happened, because nothing is usually what happens, but familiarity with measured performance under stress is difficult to understate.

[MikeyCNY]

I'm late to the thread, because I consider myself a novice compared to most of you. However as a NYS resident restricted to 10 rounds (or 10+1), I figure some might find my information useful. I am not an expert at anything except a few video games (well okay not even that) - this is based solely on my years of voraciously reading every available resource I can find. I lurk more than I participate...

It seems to me, that 20+ years ago, the majority of threats on the street were 1-2 aggressors with knifes or handguns robbing you on the street. In this case, a 5-round revolver would usually be enough - just displaying the shiny wheelgun would usually cause the hooligans to change their mind.

About 10-20 years ago, the threats seemed to evolve (devolve?) to include possible mass murder incidents - at work, church, school, bar etc.. This time the criminal(s) were determined to harm/kill as many as possible - and there was no talking them down. Sometimes loners, sometimes teams - you needed enough ammo snacks for all of them, and sometimes they had armor (and rifles), so be prepared to double-triple tap and go for headshots if needed. Another possible threat is home invasions - still relatively rare but worth mentioning. My nightstand gun is an M&P 2.0 Fullsize, but I'm stuck with 10 rounds (10+1) in the gun. Obviously there are spare mags with it, but if I hear a bump in the night will I really take the time to shove a spare mag in my pocket? And what if I'm sleeping in the nude that night? (don't visualize that) Side note: I am working on a "battle belt" of sorts for nightstand duty.

Starting this year (or maybe the past year or two), the threats are seemingly peaceful crowds swiftly becoming violent mobs. As we've seen, dozens of people all chanting and moving together can become a hazard if you aren't prepared. If it comes time to throw out some party favors, you'd better be 100% sure and know what you're doing next. If you use 2 rounds to stop the first threat, are any more coming? Did you scare off the rest of the crowd or did you just enrage them more?

For the last few years my CCW has been an M&P Shield with extended mag (making it 10+1). I usually carry a spare mag (also with 10 rounds) and I find that sufficient for me and mine. I don't go to any big parties, protests or events. I recently did some upgrades to my Ruger LCP (.380), and when I'm doing rucking trips around town I usually just have that and 6 rounds of .380. Conceals well enough, and if someone comes after me I can beat them down with the 30 pound rucksack. Would likely work well enough against a stray dog if I absolutely had to (unless it was a pack...). If I were going out in the woods I'd probably upgrade to something beefier..

My new carry is now the SIG P365XL w/ Holosun 507k - I have over 600 flawless rounds through it, and it conceals better than the Shield. It also has 10 rounds, and I get more of a grip. Still getting used to a red dot but I can certainly see the appeal of it.

In the winter I have an M&P 2.0 Compact with TLR7 light - shoots great, has an WML, but harder (for me) to conceal in warmer months. Still limited to 10 rounds, but bigger size means I can control it better. Also usable with some thinner gloves, for me.

[PX4 Storm Tracker]

...Obviously there are spare mags with it, but if I hear a bump in the night will I really take the time to shove a spare mag in my pocket? And what if I'm sleeping in the nude that night? (don't visualize that) Side note: I am working on a "battle belt" of sorts for nightstand duty...

I keep additional spare magazines positioned in hidden places throughout the house where I might seek cover or be at a certain point of travel.

[BehindBlueI's]

It seems to me, that 20+ years ago, the majority of threats on the street were 1-2 aggressors with knifes or handguns robbing you on the street. In this case, a 5-round revolver would usually be enough - just displaying the shiny wheelgun would usually cause the hooligans to change their mind.

About 10-20 years ago, the threats seemed to evolve (devolve?) to include possible mass murder incidents - at work, church, school, bar etc.. This time the criminal(s) were determined to harm/kill as many as possible - and there was no talking them down. Sometimes loners, sometimes teams - you needed enough ammo snacks for all of them, and sometimes they had armor (and rifles), so be prepared to double-triple tap and go for headshots if needed. Another possible threat is home invasions - still relatively rare but worth mentioning. My nightstand gun is an M&P 2.0 Fullsize, but I'm stuck with 10 rounds (10+1) in the gun. Obviously there are spare mags with it, but if I hear a bump in the night will I really take the time to shove a spare mag in my pocket?

The "20+ years ago" threat is still the threat today in the vast, vast majority of situations a gun will be of any use. Mass shooters happened then, to. "Going Postal" was coined in that time frame due to the media coverage of postal employees engaging in workplace shootings. Kentucky's worst mass shooting was a workplace shooting at Standard Gravure in 1989. What's changed is the media coverage and 24 hour news cycle making every workplace/school violence incident national news.

As for the "bump in the night" kit, I have a shoulder holster setup that goes over my headboard. You can be naked and slip it on and have a gun, two spare mags, and a flashlight all at the ready. The flashlight is the bigger gain, IMO, as I've yet to see a home invasion get to reloads making a difference, either.

[Duke]

No

But there again 17+1 might not be enough either....

[TC215]

The flashlight is the bigger gain, IMO, as I've yet to see a home invasion get to reloads making a difference, either.

I’ve not either, personally, but Mas had a good article in American Handgunner recently (May/June 2020) where a male homeowner shoots an intruder multiple times with a 5-shot Taurus revolver, runs it dry, and has to tell his wife to run and get him another gun while he’s fighting with the suspect. The homeowner ends up killing the suspect with the second gun.