Remington's Ammo Business for Sale

[farscott]

From the WSJ at https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/bankrupt-remington-gets-65-million-offer-for-ammunition-business-11599680366


Bankrupt Remington Gets $65 Million Offer for Ammunition Business

Firearms maker agrees to sell its ammunition business out of bankruptcy to investment firm JJE for $65 million, subject to better offers

The kicker is JJE is the parent company of Palmetto State Armory. So if no one bids higher, PSA will be making Remington ammo.

[Zincwarrior]

I have $20 for a counteroffer. Who's with me?

[LittleLebowski]

Sold to the guy that founded Palmetto/PSA, Jamin McCallum: https://palmettostatearmory.com/about-psa.html


Firearms maker Remington Outdoor Co. has agreed to sell its ammunition business out of bankruptcy to South Carolina-based investment firm JJE Capital Holdings LLC for $65 million plus the assumption of liabilities, subject to better offers.

The JJE offer came in the form of a stalking-horse bid, setting a floor on the sale price for Remington’s ammunition business, which the company has been marketing while in chapter 11. Remington filed for bankruptcy protection in July and has been open to selling its ammunition and firearms...

http://www.buzzfile.com/business/Jje-Capital-Holdings,-LLC-803-360-1838

[blues]

Does this mean that South Carolina will again fire the first shot in the coming civil war?


/sarc

[ccmdfd]

Does this mean that South Carolina will again fire the first shot in the coming civil war?


/sarc

Ouch!
Too soon!

[Zincwarrior]

Does this mean that South Carolina will again fire the first shot in the coming civil war?


/sarc
More importantly does this mean Remington, er Palmetto ammunition will start helping alleviate the current shortages! :)

I wonder if they will keep the name, as it has IP value or go with Palmetto. From a market based perspective I'd keep the name for ammunition as it has brand cache.

[Stephanie B]

At least it’s apparently not being bought by a bunch of vulture capitalists looking to drain the business and then bail.

[5pins]

This sounds like a good turn of events. A gun company buying an ammo company.

[OlongJohnson]

I've said for years that the only part of the Remington group I'd miss if it went away is Barnes Bullets. If UMC comes along in the deal, that's a good thing. Had decent results with their stuff.

[ccmdfd]

I've said for years that the only part of the Remington group I'd miss if it went away is Barnes Bullets. If UMC comes along in the deal, that's a good thing. Had decent results with their stuff.

Learned something new. Was not aware that Barnes was part of Remington.

I'm a very big fan of Barnes.

[lwt16]

I have $20 for a counteroffer. Who's with me?

I'll toss in twenty.

Forty bucks ought to get us the facility. The other 64 million and change is for the 28 cases of brass 9mm and six cases of .380 auto they have on stock in the warehouse.

[LittleLebowski]

At least it’s apparently not being bought by a bunch of vulture capitalists looking to drain the business and then bail.

Yup. Poor Colt :(

[beenalongtime]

I'll toss in twenty.

Forty bucks ought to get us the facility. The other 64 million and change is for the 28 cases of brass 9mm and six cases of .380 auto they have on stock in the warehouse.

I thought that was the Cheaper then Dirt ammo price.

[fatdog]

I see Palmetto's vertical integration strategy is the opposite of what most of the other firearms companies have pursued. I predict this is a good thing. They are clearly run by a group of real gun people who understand the market, not a bunch of ex fortune 500 "managers" with no understanding of their customers, or worse, PE idiots.

[Nephrology]

I see Palmetto's vertical integration strategy is the opposite of what most of the other firearms companies have pursued. I predict this is a good thing. They are clearly run by a group of real gun people who understand the market, not a bunch of ex fortune 500 "managers" with no understanding of their customers, or worse, PE idiots.

Definitely not run by idiots - far too precious of a resource to be wasted on leadership at PSA, where every pair of idiot hands is hard at work assembling AR-15s on the factory floor.

[blues]

Definitely not run by idiots - far too precious of a resource to be wasted on leadership at PSA, where every pair of idiot hands is hard at work assembling AR-15s on the factory floor.

What are you actually trying to say, Neph...I'm genuinely not clear on the message you are sending. (I must be an idiot.)

[Nephrology]

What are you actually trying to say, Neph...I'm genuinely not clear on the message you are sending. (I must be an idiot.)

PSA AR-15s are generally not considered to have the highest quality of assembly and the above was an attempt at what I believe is commonly known as a "joke" :D

[fatdog]

PSA AR-15s are generally not considered to have the highest quality of assembly and the above was an attempt at what I believe is commonly known as a "joke" :D

Their Gen 3 AK's are definitely not a joke, best AK I have ever owned so far.

I also have to say I have owned a half dozen of their uppers and two of their AR-10 clones, and never had the first problem with one of them. I am sure people have had bad experiences with things they have made and I have never surpassed 20K rounds in one, or used one to invade a foreign country, so it is the just the experience of a hobbyist (who are 99.7% of the people they sell guns to are). I guess I should pay more attention to what the internet says their reputation should be ;)

[ccmdfd]

and the above was an attempt at what I believe is commonly known as a "joke" :D

It's an industry term.
:)

[Nephrology]

Their Gen 3 AK's are definitely not a joke, best AK I have ever owned so far.

I also have to say I have owned a half dozen of their uppers and two of their AR-10 clones, and never had the first problem with one of them. I am sure people have had bad experiences with things they have made and I have never surpassed 20K rounds in one, or used one to invade a foreign country, so it is the just the experience of a hobbyist (who are 99.7% of the people they sell guns to are). I guess I should pay more attention to what the internet says their reputation should be ;)

I have one of their 11.5" uppers as well and it's been fine so far, but their history with assembly issues is well known. I bought the 11.5" as a gamble and for $230 I couldn't be happier - but I knew what I was buying.

[Zincwarrior]

I would imagine most of the management for the ammunition division will stay, with some potential hires from the industry. There may be very little interaction with Palmetto actually.

[fatdog]

One thing I have to credit PSA with is they grasp the concept of continuous improvement. Their first gen AK's had a bad reputation, I don't really know much about their 2nd gen, but they apparently got their manufacturing and customer service levels a whole lot better over that period and came out with the gen 3's which are a much better gun. My understanding is that in the process of getting their manufacturing operation to the next level they actually bought their own forge and put it in operation, which only a handful of firearms manufacturers even own at this point.

The fact that they understand the products their hobbyist customers want, they don't walk in fear of the social responsibility trolls they run into at Manhattan cocktail parties, they understand the price point and margins that will let them move volume, they embrace a direct sales model without 2 additional old school retail layers between them and the customer like every other firearms manufacturer has with distributor middlemen who then sell only to LGS (probably the main reason they have lower prices) and the fact they are trying to innovate with new products all the time puts them way ahead of the hidebound PE owned FUD catering firearms companies like Remington.

If they apply their operating principles to that ammunition division it might portend good things. If I want to order a case of cartridges delivered to my gate, I should not have to pay the markups by the distributor followed by the markups from the local retailer, it is that simple.

[Baldanders]

Great news! My Trooper likes Remington .38 sjhp better than anything else.

[JRB]

...they embrace a direct sales model without 2 additional old school retail layers between them and the customer like every other firearms manufacturer....

I would own a LOT more Colt products, if not for that silly bullshit. Instead they left me to find the AR uppers I actually want on the second hand market, and I bought AR lowers and 1911's and everything else from other companies. It's sad, really.

[DDTSGM]

I see Palmetto's vertical integration strategy is the opposite of what most of the other firearms companies have pursued. I predict this is a good thing. They are clearly run by a group of real gun people who understand the market, not a bunch of ex fortune 500 "managers" with no understanding of their customers, or worse, PE idiots.


Definitely not run by idiots - far too precious of a resource to be wasted on leadership at PSA, where every pair of idiot hands is hard at work assembling AR-15s on the factory floor.


What are you actually trying to say, Neph...I'm genuinely not clear on the message you are sending. (I must be an idiot.)


PSA AR-15s are generally not considered to have the highest quality of assembly and the above was an attempt at what I believe is commonly known as a "joke" :D

One of the problems with PSA was that they grew too quickly. This caused problems with inventory and shipping. Then during the last demand spike PSA basically was putting out so much product that they had to hire temps to do shipping and some assembly work. This allowed bad product to get out and gave them a less than stellar reputation. The guy that runs PSA laid this all out on a podcast/video interview a year or so ago.

Assembling an AR/M4 isn't rocket science, there is very little hand fitting involved. If your job was to install triggers into a receiver, chances are that you'd be pretty good at it in a week, then if they moved you to hammers, in another week you'd be pretty good at that, and so on through the entire rifle. That is what a stable workforce gives you, and hopefully, PSA has accomplished that, as the CEO pointed out it was one of the major things they needed to fix.

As someone who looks at the BATFE Annual Firearms Manufacturers And Export Report each year, I have seen PSA's growth. In comparison to the more popular, at least with internet authorities, boutique brands, that growth is astounding. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/data-statistics (the link allows you to scroll down to find the report, and then choose the year you want to look at in PDF format, much handier than googling each year)

Keeping that in mind, what PSA's detractors don't seem to understand is that if you are putting out ten times as much product, logic should tell you that you will have about ten times the number of complaints. Kind of funny, a PSA BCG eats gas rings and it's labeled as 'typical PSA garbage.' On the other hand a BCM BCG eats gas rings 'no one's perfect, stuff happens.'

Of course, that is to be expected when SOME forum owners are biased toward a company with which they have a financial relationship.

Additionally, the PSA deriders apparently don't understand how differing production marketing strategies can impact the price of goods sold. As an example, if you buy 100,000 bolt carriers at a time, you are probably going to get them cheaper than the guy that buys 1,000, or even 10,000. That means you can sell the end product a little cheaper. Keeping in mind that PSA doesn't wholesale to a distributor who then sells to a gun store, which means two price markups, PSA's prices for the same product should be lower.

Likewise if you buy 10,000 bolt carriers from an OEM manufacturer, and then spend additional time completely QC'ing each of these bolt carriers (which should have been done by the OEM manufacturer) instead of batch testing, your end product is going to cost more. And you are still going to have an occasional goof.

Don't mistake my message, I don't believe PSA offers a better quality rifle than BCM, Sionics, LMT. I do, however, believe they are equal to a Colt as long as we are comparing apples to apples - chrome-lined barrel, C-158 bolt, etc.


One thing I have to credit PSA with is they grasp the concept of continuous improvement. Their first gen AK's had a bad reputation, I don't really know much about their 2nd gen, but they apparently got their manufacturing and customer service levels a whole lot better over that period and came out with the gen 3's which are a much better gun. My understanding is that in the process of getting their manufacturing operation to the next level they actually bought their own forge and put it in operation, which only a handful of firearms manufacturers even own at this point.

The fact that they understand the products their hobbyist customers want, they don't walk in fear of the social responsibility trolls they run into at Manhattan cocktail parties, they understand the price point and margins that will let them move volume, they embrace a direct sales model without 2 additional old school retail layers between them and the customer like every other firearms manufacturer has with distributor middlemen who then sell only to LGS (probably the main reason they have lower prices) and the fact they are trying to innovate with new products all the time puts them way ahead of the hidebound PE owned FUD catering firearms companies like Remington.

Absolutely. I think they will do well with the Remington ammunition line. One thing concerns me: if you look at Joe Biden's plan for America, he wants to eliminate the online sale of pretty much everything firearms related. This includes ammunition and components such as barrels, BCG's, etc. If this comes to pass, it doesn't bode well for any manufacturer, especially one that doesn't have that distribution network.

[HCM]

One of the problems with PSA was that they grew too quickly. This caused problems with inventory and shipping. Then during the last demand spike PSA basically was putting out so much product that they had to hire temps to do shipping and some assembly work. This allowed bad product to get out and gave them a less than stellar reputation. The guy that runs PSA laid this all out on a podcast/video interview a year or so ago.

Assembling an AR/M4 isn't rocket science, there is very little hand fitting involved. If your job was to install triggers into a receiver, chances are that you'd be pretty good at it in a week, then if they moved you to hammers, in another week you'd be pretty good at that, and so on through the entire rifle. That is what a stable workforce gives you, and hopefully, PSA has accomplished that, as the CEO pointed out it was one of the major things they needed to fix.

As someone who looks at the BATFE Annual Firearms Manufacturers And Export Report each year, I have seen PSA's growth. In comparison to the more popular, at least with internet authorities, boutique brands, that growth is astounding. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/data-statistics (the link allows you to scroll down to find the report, and then choose the year you want to look at in PDF format, much handier than googling each year)

Keeping that in mind, what PSA's detractors don't seem to understand is that if you are putting out ten times as much product, logic should tell you that you will have about ten times the number of complaints. Kind of funny, a PSA BCG eats gas rings and it's labeled as 'typical PSA garbage.' On the other hand a BCM BCG eats gas rings 'no one's perfect, stuff happens.'

Of course, that is to be expected when SOME forum owners are biased toward a company with which they have a financial relationship.

Additionally, the PSA deriders apparently don't understand how differing production marketing strategies can impact the price of goods sold. As an example, if you buy 100,000 bolt carriers at a time, you are probably going to get them cheaper than the guy that buys 1,000, or even 10,000. That means you can sell the end product a little cheaper. Keeping in mind that PSA doesn't wholesale to a distributor who then sells to a gun store, which means two price markups, PSA's prices for the same product should be lower.

Likewise if you buy 10,000 bolt carriers from an OEM manufacturer, and then spend additional time completely QC'ing each of these bolt carriers (which should have been done by the OEM manufacturer) instead of batch testing, your end product is going to cost more. And you are still going to have an occasional goof.

Don't mistake my message, I don't believe PSA offers a better quality rifle than BCM, Sionics, LMT. I do, however, believe they are equal to a Colt as long as we are comparing apples to apples - chrome-lined barrel, C-158 bolt, etc.



Absolutely. I think they will do well with the Remington ammunition line. One thing concerns me: if you look at Joe Biden's plan for America, he wants to eliminate the online sale of pretty much everything firearms related. This includes ammunition and components such as barrels, BCG's, etc. If this comes to pass, it doesn't bode well for any manufacturer, especially one that doesn't have that distribution network.

Your assessment of PSA has some big holes in it.

Until recently PSA assembled AR's but did not actually "make" anything. They got into actual manufacturing by buying other companies that manufacture barrels, AK's etc.

The original PSA guns were decent and what would now be known as "PSA Premium" with FN CHF barrels etc. However a collection of good parts does not necessarily equal a good rifle. Proper assembly and QC checks are a thing.

You are correct about growing pains but they go beyond assembly issues an the last panic. PSA had at least 4 different "grades" of ARs and AR parts - PSA Premium, PSA, Freedom and PTAC. At the lower levels (PTAC and Freedom) they were literally buying and re-selling other makers out of spec rejects aka shit (NOT Blems). That speaks to their ethics.

Your assertion that PSA's BCG's are the exact same thing as those used by BCM, Colt etc and that the price difference is all 'PSA buying in bulk" is nonsense. PSA's BCG are made by Tooltech which means they are hit or miss. Most of the premium brands you mentioned all use BCG made by Microbest. Could Tooltech make a BCG group that was the equal of Microbest ? Maybe but it would cost about the same as a micro best. You get what you pay for.

Now that they, or more correctly their subsidiaries, are actually making things in house they do seem to be making better products but PSA's AK division getting their act together doesn't mean they AR's are the equal of Colt.

[FNFAN]

Great news! My Trooper likes Remington .38 sjhp better than anything else.

Older or newer Trooper? I've always lusted after one of these:

60250

On Topic: I see this as a positive development. PSA seems to have decent business acumen.

[DDTSGM]

Your assessment of PSA has some big holes in it.

Until recently PSA assembled AR's but did not actually "make" anything. They got into actual manufacturing by buying other companies that manufacture barrels, AK's etc.

The original PSA guns were decent and what would now be known as "PSA Premium" with FN CHF barrels etc. However a collection of good parts does not necessarily equal a good rifle. Proper assembly and QC checks are a thing.

You are correct about growing pains but they go beyond assembly issues an the last panic. PSA had at least 4 different "grades" of ARs and AR parts - PSA Premium, PSA, Freedom and PTAC. At the lower levels (PTAC and Freedom) they were literally buying and re-selling other makers out of spec rejects aka shit (NOT Blems). That speaks to their ethics.

Your assertion that PSA's BCG's are the exact same thing as those used by BCM, Colt etc and that the price difference is all 'PSA buying in bulk" is nonsense. PSA's BCG are made by Tooltech which means they are hit or miss. Most of the premium brands you mentioned all use BCG made by Microbest. Could Tooltech make a BCG group that was the equal of Microbest ? Maybe but it would cost about the same as a micro best. You get what you pay for.

Now that they, or more correctly their subsidiaries, are actually making things in house they do seem to be making better products but PSA's AK division getting their act together doesn't mean they AR's are the equal of Colt.

I don't have a dog in the fight, but, I don't think you read what I posted in context, I didn't mention names with the bolt carrier example, was merely talking about purchasing in economies of scale, although PSA and BCM were on my mind. Likewise, where did I say PSA manufactured anything? If you are talking about my reference to the BATFE reports, PSA is a firearms manufacturer, just as I am when I form 1 an SBR.

ToolCRAFT (versus Tooltech) is one of the largest OEM manufacturers of bolt carriers around. For those that drink the mil-spec kool-aide, they are a parts supplier for repair parts. Toolcraft doesn't make bolts, so they source those elsewhere for their complete BCG's. Nonetheless, Toolcraft warranties their BCG's forever, regardless who you bought it from.

Could Tooltech make a BCG group that was the equal of Microbest? Maybe but it would cost about the same as a micro best. You get what you pay for.

What I pay for is a BC made of the proper material and surface treatment, a C-158 bolt (shot-peen and MPI - HPT isn't a big deal to me, some are some aren't) as well as a gas key made of the proper material, secured with the proper grade 8 fasteners, and properly staked. Generally I pay in the ball park of $89.00. Nitride or phosphate is what I get for finish. You'll have to go some to convince me that a mil-spec BCG is worth half again or more. I get what I pay for.

they were literally buying and re-selling other makers out of spec rejects aka shit (NOT Blems). That speaks to their ethics. Put up or shut up - prove your allegation, and not by posting something Stickman wrote on M4C. Because I've heard that before, and when I've asked for proof, crickets. So you have the channce to be the one who makes me acknowledge my misconception.

Same thing with 'FN will make a barrel to any spec you want, the ones they sell to PSA are rejects.' Show me the proof. Does it even make sense that FN would intentionally sell subpar barrels and allow the purchaser to advertise them as FN's? That would really help FN's reputation, wouldn't it?

Unlike some folks, I don't have a hard-on for any manufacturer, I have BCM parts on almost every rifle I build - generally at least the upper receiver, sometimes the A5 receiver extension, I also gifted my oldest boy a complete BCM upper in 16' M4 carbine configuration. No doubt, they are good at what they do, in general I think they are a little pricey, otherwise I'd buy more.

I just really hate to see folks piling on to anyone or anything. It's one of my great failings, I guess.

ETA: I'm an American, my version of that wouldn't allow me to handle an AK, so I couldn't care less about PSA's AK division.

[HCM]

I don't have a dog in the fight, but, I don't think you read what I posted in context, I didn't mention names with the bolt carrier example, was merely talking about purchasing in economies of scale, although PSA and BCM were on my mind. Likewise, where did I say PSA manufactured anything? If you are talking about my reference to the BATFE reports, PSA is a firearms manufacturer, just as I am when I form 1 an SBR.

ToolCRAFT (versus Tooltech) is one of the largest OEM manufacturers of bolt carriers around. For those that drink the mil-spec kool-aide, they are a parts supplier for repair parts. Toolcraft doesn't make bolts, so they source those elsewhere for their complete BCG's. Nonetheless, Toolcraft warranties their BCG's forever, regardless who you bought it from.

Could Tooltech make a BCG group that was the equal of Microbest? Maybe but it would cost about the same as a micro best. You get what you pay for.

What I pay for is a BC made of the proper material and surface treatment, a C-158 bolt (shot-peen and MPI - HPT isn't a big deal to me, some are some aren't) as well as a gas key made of the proper material, secured with the proper grade 8 fasteners, and properly staked. Generally I pay in the ball park of $89.00. Nitride or phosphate is what I get for finish. You'll have to go some to convince me that a mil-spec BCG is worth half again or more. I get what I pay for.

they were literally buying and re-selling other makers out of spec rejects aka shit (NOT Blems). That speaks to their ethics. Put up or shut up - prove your allegation, and not by posting something Stickman wrote on M4C. Because I've heard that before, and when I've asked for proof, crickets. So you have the channce to be the one who makes me acknowledge my misconception.

Same thing with 'FN will make a barrel to any spec you want, the ones they sell to PSA are rejects.' Show me the proof. Does it even make sense that FN would intentionally sell subpar barrels and allow the purchaser to advertise them as FN's? That would really help FN's reputation, wouldn't it?

Unlike some folks, I don't have a hard-on for any manufacturer, I have BCM parts on almost every rifle I build - generally at least the upper receiver, sometimes the A5 receiver extension, I also gifted my oldest boy a complete BCM upper in 16' M4 carbine configuration. No doubt, they are good at what they do, in general I think they are a little pricey, otherwise I'd buy more.

I just really hate to see folks piling on to anyone or anything. It's one of my great failings, I guess.

ETA: I'm an American, my version of that wouldn't allow me to handle an AK, so I couldn't care less about PSA's AK division.

Industry sources aside, as in real people I know not anonymous dudes on M4C, I've seen friends and co-workers who bought PSA's PTAC crap and wound up having to buy twice or using my parts (meaning I had to buy twice) because the PTAC parts would not fit in-spec uppers and lowers.

I'm not a fan boy for any particular manufacturer, a Colt is on par with at least half a dozen others (BCM, LMT, Sionics, SOLGW etc) but there are some that have earned my dislike due to choosing to put out junk, PSA is one of those.

With the current gun/ammo drought we are about to see general a repeat of the poor QC and out of spec junk that we saw in 2013 and into 2014. Be suspicious of anyone who is never out of stock on anything under these conditions.


FN will make a barrel to any spec you want, the ones they sell to PSA are rejects.'

The first half of this is true, the proof is FN's OEM price-list. They will make you a $200 barrel to a $400 barrel (I recall there are 7 grades?), the difference being the machine time and reject rate you are willing to pay for. The $200 barrels are the minimum FN will send out the door. That is a difference between FN (and many others) and the PSA's.

The FN barrels used in PSA's original guns, subsequently known as their premium line guns are not rejects, but they are $200 FN barrels. A $200 FN barrel is not a bad barrel, but it is also not the same thing as the higher end barrels they make for BCM, Noveske, etc

[Nephrology]

You are correct about growing pains but they go beyond assembly issues an the last panic. PSA had at least 4 different "grades" of ARs and AR parts - PSA Premium, PSA, Freedom and PTAC.

FWIW when I bought my 11.5" upper from them last black friday, i think they had consolidated down their lines. There was no premium vs freedom vs ptac, just different barrels (FN sourced chrome line, nitride, SS, etc). I went for the nitride because I wanted a $230 PSA upper that might work and not a $330 PSA upper that might work. I also made sure to get one with a pinned FSB because I reasoned as long as it wasn't canted they probably couldn't fuck that up too badly.

Upper so far seems acceptably accurate and nothing's exploded yet, but the raison d'etre behind that AR pistol was to be as cheap as possible. At about $600 including the used PA optic, I am pretty satisfied

[HCM]

FWIW when I bought my 11.5" upper from them last black friday, i think they had consolidated down their lines. There was no premium vs freedom vs ptac, just different barrels (FN sourced chrome line, nitride, SS, etc). I went for the nitride because I wanted a $230 PSA upper that might work and not a $330 PSA upper that might work. I also made sure to get one with a pinned FSB because I reasoned as long as it wasn't canted they probably couldn't fuck that up too badly.

Upper so far seems acceptably accurate and nothing's exploded yet, but the raison d'etre behind that AR pistol was to be as cheap as possible. At about $600 including the used PA optic, I am pretty satisfied

Yes, they did. And PSA bought a barrel company 2-3 years ago and the barrels from their subsidiary are better than their prior stuff.

[DDTSGM]

The first half of this is true, the proof is FN's OEM price-list. They will make you a $200 barrel to a $400 barrel (I recall there are 7 grades?), the difference being the machine time and reject rate you are willing to pay for. The $200 barrels are the minimum FN will send out the door. That is a difference between FN (and many others) and the PSA's.

The FN barrels used in PSA's original guns, subsequently known as their premium line guns are not rejects, but they are $200 FN barrels. A $200 FN barrel is not a bad barrel, but it is also not the same thing as the higher end barrels they make for BCM, Noveske, etc

I can understand that premise, the problem is knowing for sure what grade is being purchased by whom.

Since you were talking PSA and BCM, I'll use them as examples:

In 2018, PSA reported making 21,992 rifles to ATF, BCM reported making 7,001; In the same year, PSA reported making 198,392 'misc' firearms, BCM, on the other hand, reported making none, which I find kind of strange since 'misc' firearms should include receivers.

Nonetheless, apparently PSA bought 3 times as many barrels to make rifles as BCM did. If you were a barrel company, would it just be within the realm of possibility that if someone was buying more barrels than someone else, you'd give the guy buying more a better deal? Isn't that pretty common place?

Now, we don't know the percentage of rifles with FN barrels that PSA sold, nor do we know the percentage of rifles with FN barrels that BCM sold. When you consider complete uppers, same deal. The numbers in the ATF report don't include uppers, and I'd bet PSA sold a shit pot more uppers than BCM did.

What I'm trying to say is that without data to support either of our sides, what we are talking is conjecture. And, as far as I'm concerned the economic logic doesn't necessarily point to PSA buying lowest grade FN barrels. It's that damned economy of scales stuff.

The guys who started BCM and PSA were opportunists, they saw an opportunity and jumped on it. They simply chose different business models. PSA grew too fast, BCM expanded more slowly. From my point of view, PSA's philosophy is quantity of sales based on lower price with reasonable QC; BCM's is smaller quantity, higher QC, and correspondingly higher prices.

It's all good, myself, I don't buy as much PSA stuff as I do other brands. Although, when I put a pencil to it recently, t was surprising to me to find out how much I have have spent buying ammo from PSA over the last two years. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of their lowers, but their logo doesn't trip my trigger.

[Baldanders]

Older or newer Trooper? I've always lusted after one of these:

60250



Mine's a MkIII with the half-barrel underlug, 4".

60317

[HCM]

I can understand that premise, the problem is knowing for sure what grade is being purchased by whom.

Since you were talking PSA and BCM, I'll use them as examples:

In 2018, PSA reported making 21,992 rifles to ATF, BCM reported making 7,001; In the same year, PSA reported making 198,392 'misc' firearms, BCM, on the other hand, reported making none, which I find kind of strange since 'misc' firearms should include receivers.

Nonetheless, apparently PSA bought 3 times as many barrels to make rifles as BCM did. If you were a barrel company, would it just be within the realm of possibility that if someone was buying more barrels than someone else, you'd give the guy buying more a better deal? Isn't that pretty common place?

Now, we don't know the percentage of rifles with FN barrels that PSA sold, nor do we know the percentage of rifles with FN barrels that BCM sold. When you consider complete uppers, same deal. The numbers in the ATF report don't include uppers, and I'd bet PSA sold a shit pot more uppers than BCM did.

What I'm trying to say is that without data to support either of our sides, what we are talking is conjecture. And, as far as I'm concerned the economic logic doesn't necessarily point to PSA buying lowest grade FN barrels. It's that damned economy of scales stuff.

The guys who started BCM and PSA were opportunists, they saw an opportunity and jumped on it. They simply chose different business models. PSA grew too fast, BCM expanded more slowly. From my point of view, PSA's philosophy is quantity of sales based on lower price with reasonable QC; BCM's is smaller quantity, higher QC, and correspondingly higher prices.

It's all good, myself, I don't buy as much PSA stuff as I do other brands. Although, when I put a pencil to it recently, t was surprising to me to find out how much I have have spent buying ammo from PSA over the last two years. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of their lowers, but their logo doesn't trip my trigger.


I think a better example of a company that simply had growing pains is CMMG.

Great early products, had assembly and supply issues as they grow quickly but they held the line on QC as best they could and fixed their issues. They are an under rated brand, particularly their new PCC line.

[Nephrology]

I think a better example of a company that simply had growing pains is CMMG.

Great early products, had assembly and supply issues as they grow quickly but they held the line on QC as best they could and fixed their issues. They are an under rated brand, particularly their new PCC line.

They make one of the best LPKs on the market IMO. Certainly one of the best values.

[DDTSGM]

Equilibrium has been reached. CMMG is good stuff.

[RevolverRob]

Presumably, since JJE Holdings bought Remington as opposed "PSA bought Remington Ammo" this is a bid to diversify investment holdings and not an effort to make PSA-branded ammo (which would be an abysmally poor decision).

In my opinion, JJE should not cross the streams, because that is a classic mistake.

Remington Ammunition is a solid product line. It needs to merely be refined a bit (offerings simplified, really). And then left alone. It's a one of those rare things where you can buy a $65 million dollar turn-key business that is unlikely to lose value. Because JJE is not saddled with the same debt structure as Remington - they undoubtedly will be able to make real money.

But they should leave everything the fuck alone.

I ASSume that did not buy Remington's ammo holdings for the purpose of selling that line solely through PSA. That would be an unmitigated disaster of a fuckup. Remington Ammo/UMC/Barnes etc have thousands of clients to do business with. PSA does not, can not, do the level of business on the retail side of things that thousands of retailers in the U.S. can do.

[Zincwarrior]

Indeed. PSA current line have almost nothing to do with Remington.

Remington will need investment to get it's maintenance schedule on check, then leave it alone.

[BWT]

I think PSA is a really intelligent company and I appreciate their actual 2A values.

Now, I will say they’re smart to part out stuff.

So, for example:

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-custom-full-auto-phosphate-bolt-carrier-group-by-microbest.html

This BCG received an awesome review from Instructor Chad on YouTube.

But, like you guys are griping about an upper - you bought at like 40-50% less than a BCM upper for example.

Personally, their AK Klone (custom) is also getting great reviews from like AK Operators Union.

I think if you understand their tiers of products and price points. They actually make some quality stuff.

But, they also survived the bubble bursting on guns by having a lot cheaper products TBH.

They’re like the primary company I can look at that’s done well in the Obama years and Trump years. They also actually are Pro 2A and unashamed about it.

I own some stripped lowers from them and I own a number of their D&H magazines with Magpul ATF followers (which I liked before), but that’s subbed out wisely IMHO.

I think if you look at this for what it is - they’re a solid company.

I don’t think it’s the best company ever and all of my AR’s are BCM. Now, I will say based on that BCG they Gave to Micro Best... I think that might be able to go toe to toe with a BCM BCG.

[farscott]

Big update from https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/remington-asset-bids-revealed-ruger-gets-marlin-vista-gets-remington-ammo-franklin-armory-gets-bushmaster/


Vista Outdoor, Inc. as the Successful Bidder pursuant to the terms of the Asset Purchase Agreement attached hereto as Exhibit A with respect to the Lonoke Ammunitions Business and certain IP assets; and SIG Sauer, Inc. as the Backup Bidder thereto pursuant to the terms of the Asset Purchase Agreement attached hereto as Exhibit B with respect to the Lonoke Ammunitions Business;

Roundhill Group, LLC as the Successful Bidder pursuant to the terms of the Asset Purchase Agreement attached hereto as Exhibit C with respect to the non-Marlin Firearms Business; and Huntsman Holdings, LLC and Century Arms, Inc. as the Backup Bidders thereto pursuant to the terms of the Asset Purchase Agreement attached hereto as Exhibit D with respect to certain Firearms Business IP assets and Exhibit E with respect to certain non-Marlin Firearms Business inventory, respectively;

Sierra Bullets, L.L.C. as the Successful Bidder pursuant to the terms of the Asset Purchase Agreement attached hereto as Exhibit F with respect to the Barnes Ammunitions Business; and Barnes Acquisition LLC as the Backup Bidder thereto pursuant to the terms of the Asset Purchase Agreement attached hereto as Exhibit G with respect to the Barnes Ammunitions Business;

Sturm, Ruger & Company, Inc. as the Successful Bidder pursuant to the terms of the Asset Purchase Agreement attached hereto as Exhibit H with respect to the Marlin Firearms Business; and Long Range Acquisition LLC as the Backup Bidder thereto pursuant to the terms of the Asset Purchase Agreement attached hereto as Exhibit I with respect to the Marlin Firearms Business;

JJE Capital Holdings, LLC as the Successful Bidder with respect to the DPMS, H&R, Stormlake, AAC, and Parker brands;

Franklin Armory Holdings, Inc., or its designated assignee, as the Successful Bidder with respect to the Bushmaster brand and certain related assets; and

Sportsman’s Warehouse, Inc. as the Successful Bidder with respect to the Tapco brand.

So Remington ammo will be under the same umbrella as CCI, Federal, and Speer. Ruger will have Marlin; that should be very interesting as Ruger has the engineering prowess to do something with Marlin's lever action business and the Goose Gun. On the other hand, the Marlin 60 might be in trouble. DPMS, H&R, Storm Lake, AAC, and Parker will have the same corporate parent as PSA.

[OlongJohnson]

This is great news for the industry, for enthusiasts, and for 2A. It seems that every new partnership is a perfect fit.

The only thing in that that doesn't make me happy is having basically Vista and Olin as a duopoly of big ammo players. Am I forgetting anything obvious?

I am stoked about Ruger taking over Marlin. I've just been thinking today about how well a 4 5/8 flat top and 1894 in .357 would go together.

Sierra and Barnes together is one heckuva complete company.

[5pins]

Roundhill group LLC gets Remington firearms. Who are they?

[OlongJohnson]

A quick Google suggests they may be another round of vulture capitalists.

[jetfire]

Full breakdown of the Remington asset sale:


https://youtu.be/sxWOoRoXtXk

Good news is Vista getting the ammo business and Ruger getting Marlin. News that does not make me optimistic is the Roundhill Capital acquisition of Remington's core firearms business, as we've been down this road before and...well it got us here.

[Lester Polfus]

I am stoked about Ruger taking over Marlin. I've just been thinking today about how well a 4 5/8 flat top and 1894 in .357 would go together.



I think they could bundle a wheel gun and a lever gun together in a common caliber and make a killing.

I've feared for the future of Marlin. We seem to be going through a lever gun resurgence, so this is great timing.

My biggest worry about all this has been "what's going to happen to Marlin?" When it comes to Remington proper, I have concerns for all those jobs that are in play, but when it comes to the actual product line, I really don't care. Remington wasn't making anything that couldn't be had for better and/or cheaper from somebody else.

[Lester Polfus]

If they do decide to package revolvers and lever guns together, the marketing campaign could feature folks doing rugged, outdoorsy stuff while wearing rugged outdoorsy clothing. Slogan: "Guns To Ride The River With"

That shit would sell itself.

[farscott]

I think they could bundle a wheel gun and a lever gun together in a common caliber and make a killing.

I've feared for the future of Marlin. We seem to be going through a lever gun resurgence, so this is great timing.

My biggest worry about all this has been "what's going to happen to Marlin?" When it comes to Remington proper, I have concerns for all those jobs that are in play, but when it comes to the actual product line, I really don't care. Remington wasn't making anything that couldn't be had for better and/or cheaper from somebody else.

I agree about the bundling, especially for Cowboy Action Shooting. Two Vaqueros and a 1894 for that sport. I can also see things like a .454 Casull or .480 Ruger 1895 lever action. Or a Super Blackhawk or Super Redhawk paired with a 1894 or 1895. Or a 39AS paired with a Single-Six or Single-Ten or a Wrangler paired with a M60.

There are tons of possibilities, like a stainless 39AS, the return of the Papoose, new Goose Gun gauges, and updates to the 336 line.

[LHS]

I had really hoped that someone who actually wants to make good guns would end up with the Remington gun business. It's well past time for a decent new-production 870 line. But I'm not optimistic when it gets bought up by another vulture capitalist firm.

Ruger picking up Marlin could be awesome.

Vista picking up the ammo business sure puts a whole lot of ammo production eggs in one basket. That worries me.

[okie john]

If they do decide to package revolvers and lever guns together, the marketing campaign could feature folks doing rugged, outdoorsy stuff while wearing rugged outdoorsy clothing. Slogan: "Guns To Ride The River With"

That shit would sell itself.

Sell the clothes, too. That's where you'd make the most money.


Okie John

[OlongJohnson]

Remington wasn't making anything that couldn't be had for better and/or cheaper from somebody else.

Or just the past. All their stuff worth having has been in production for >60 years.


Sell the clothes, too. That's where you'd make the most money.

Okie John

It seems to work for Beretta.

[fatdog]

Good to hear that some parts of it went to "strategic buyers" who will actually do something positive with some of those product lines and facilities instead of the lowlife house flipper VC types for a change. Not looking good for the 870's and bolt guns, or that higher cost factory in Ilion I suspect.

[okie john]

Good to hear that some parts of it went to "strategic buyers" who will actually do something positive with some of those product lines and facilities instead of the lowlife house flipper VC types for a change. Not looking good for the 870's and bolt guns, or that higher cost factory in Ilion I suspect.

I suspect that Ilion is at risk. Products from the Alabama plant have a pretty good reputation thus far.


Okie John

[Lester Polfus]

Or just the past. All their stuff worth having has been in production for >60 years.


Right? Why buy a brand new Model 700 or 870, when there are millions of used ones out there, arguably better made than current production. At some point, you start competing with yourself.

[LHS]

Right? Why buy a brand new Model 700 or 870, when there are millions of used ones out there, arguably better made than current production. At some point, you start competing with yourself.

The 870's well out of patent at this point, I have to assume (being 70 years old now), so it surprises me that nobody's made aftermarket receivers (excluding the non-spec Chinesium shit) for it.

[Lester Polfus]

The 870's well out of patent at this point, I have to assume (being 70 years old now), so it surprises me that nobody's made aftermarket receivers (excluding the non-spec Chinesium shit) for it.

I wonder if it's because they know they'll be competing with all the used guns out there, and by the time you tool up to make a copy, it ain't worth it?

I'm spitballing here. Outside the p-f cognoscenti, I feel like the shotgun market is pretty soft right now. That's the impression I got from one of my LGS owners.

Everybody wants AR15s.

[LHS]

I wonder if it's because they know they'll be competing with all the used guns out there, and by the time you tool up to make a copy, it ain't worth it?

I'm spitballing here. Outside the p-f cognoscenti, I feel like the shotgun market is pretty soft right now. That's the impression I got from one of my LGS owners.

Everybody wants AR15s.

It's certainly hard to compete with all the $350 popo trade-ins and $250 pawn shop specials out there, but lately a lot of those are sold out by panic buyers, and I figure they'll dry up eventually anyway. I will bet in 10 years, 870s will start to be like classic Smith revolvers, with older, better-QC examples commanding decent money.

Which doesn't bode well for people like me who still use them as working/training/HD guns. I may just get dragged into the 1301 sphere kicking and screaming after all.

[OlongJohnson]

It's possible that Remington's tooling has worn to become the same crap show that Marlin was in 2006, and that it wouldn't cost that much more, if you're going to retool a production line essentially from scratch, to retool a line that would build a semi-auto instead of a pump. Design and process go hand in hand, and it's possible that to keep production costs down by exploiting the most efficient modern manufacturing methods (while maintaining or even improving performance of the product) would require a new design. Certainly, if I was planning a business, I'd want to be paying for a line that would make a product designed with the capabilities and functions of modern manufacturing in mind. I reckon the outcome would be something like Tikka, if we're talking bolt guns.

How much would an 870 have to cost to be made in America and have the quality of a 1301?


It's certainly hard to compete with all the $350 popo trade-ins and $250 pawn shop specials out there, but lately a lot of those are sold out by panic buyers, and I figure they'll dry up eventually anyway. I will bet in 10 years, 870s will start to be like classic Smith revolvers, with older, better-QC examples commanding decent money.

Notice that hasn't led S&W and Ruger to build product to compete with the "older, better-QC examples" which, BTW, in average cases still command lower prices than similarly-featured new guns.

[Yung]

Which doesn't bode well for people like me who still use them as working/training/HD guns. I may just get dragged into the 1301 sphere kicking and screaming after all.

This was part of my rationale for deciding to part with my Vang Comp. Also, I'll be getting back into snubs soon and I'll be going for the LCRs instead of anyone else for the same reasons.

[Borderland]

Good to hear that some parts of it went to "strategic buyers" who will actually do something positive with some of those product lines and facilities instead of the lowlife house flipper VC types for a change. Not looking good for the 870's and bolt guns, or that higher cost factory in Ilion I suspect.

This is just going to drive up the prices on old Wingmasters. If you like those and don't have one, you probably should start looking soon while the prices are still reasonable.

I bought this one new in 1970 for around one fiddy. It's still in my safe.

https://i.ibb.co/WW7Fmxq/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg (https://ibb.co/Y7J8HRY)

[okie john]

So now the pre-Express 870 is like the pre-64 Model 70 or the no-lock S&W revolver?


Okie John

[farscott]

So now the pre-Express 870 is like the pre-64 Model 70 or the no-lock S&W revolver?


Okie John

With the 870, you have pre-impressed checkering, post-impressed checkering, pre-J-Lock, post-J-Lock, detent magazine cap, milled extractor, stock wood (walnut or hardwood), brazed barrel ring,etc. There have been a ton of changes over the years.

[JRB]

I wonder if it's because they know they'll be competing with all the used guns out there, and by the time you tool up to make a copy, it ain't worth it?

I'm spitballing here. Outside the p-f cognoscenti, I feel like the shotgun market is pretty soft right now. That's the impression I got from one of my LGS owners.

Everybody wants AR15s.

Talking to other local FFL's in my area, what the panic customer wants depends a lot on what they already have.

Folks with nothing want a .38 or 9mm or for the sock drawer.
Folks with a .38 in the sock drawer want a 12ga for the closet.
Folks with a .38 and a 12ga want a 'high capacity' something.
Folks with a .38, 12ga, and Glock 17 want an AR.
Folks with a full safe are looking for bulk ammo and 'extra' guns they like.

Sometimes the folks with nothing want a .38 *and* a 12ga, and sometimes they're prior service, and jump straight toward an AR instead of anything else due to previous experience.

Speaking generally, of course.

Every single distributor I'm tied into is cleaned out of every brand and model of 12ga that's shorter than 26in. The TAC-14's and Shockwaves are pulling stupid money right now, I wish I'd bought a few dozen of them to flip when the getting was good.

[blues]

Sometimes the folks with nothing want a .38 *and* a 12ga, and sometimes they're prior service, and jump straight toward an AR instead of anything else due to previous experience.

Speaking generally, of course.



I fit that mold somewhat from my prior service in LE. A few Glocks, a J-frame. an 870 and an AR. All firearms I carried and employed during my years with Uncle. (Of course I also carried and trained with a few I don't personally own...but those represent what I carried more often than not on any given day.)

There's something to be said for comfort and familiarity with a weapon system...especially if one is not a "collector" but more utilitarian in regard to what he or she purchases.

[LHS]

With the 870, you have pre-impressed checkering, post-impressed checkering, pre-J-Lock, post-J-Lock, detent magazine cap, milled extractor, stock wood (walnut or hardwood), brazed barrel ring,etc. There have been a ton of changes over the years.

Don't forget Flexitab upgrades!

And don't get me started on the 20ga models.

[RevolverRob]

IMPORTANT UPDATE re: BARNES

Barnes was bought not by the group that owns PSA.

Barnes was just purchased by Clarus Corporation, owners of Sierra Bullets: https://www.thetacticalwire.com/releases/c65a4dfc-9a45-42a7-88f8-601240845d3c

That's absolutely GREAT news...

Here's a couple of quotes:


Clarus’ Executive Chairman, Warren Kanders, commented: “The Barnes acquisition caps off our strategy to build a leader in specialty premium bullets and ammunition. We now have a platform of scale that we expect to continue to deliver strong recurring revenue with high gross margins and free cash flow conversion. This acquisition also demonstrates our ability to patiently wait for strategic assets at attractive values that we expect to drive growth and maximize our returns on invested capital. We look forward to further acquisition efforts being in similarly accretive, strategic areas outside of the bullet and ammunition market.”

Clarus’ CFO, Aaron Kuehne, added: “The opportunistic and strategic acquisition of Barnes represents an accretive, tuck-in asset that brings our bullet and ammunition business additional capacity in a period of great demand and improves our overall scale within our Sierra segment. In addition, the acquisition presents significant financial and operational synergies that we expect to maximize with our strong balance sheet. As such, we expect our leading specialty bullet and ammunition platform has long-term runway to becoming a segment with $100 million in sales generating 25-30% adjusted EBITDA margins.”

___

I now give absolutely zero fucks what PSA does with Remington ammo; Barnes is/was the only thing I care(d) about.

[5pins]

IMPORTANT UPDATE re: BARNES

Barnes was bought not by the group that owns PSA.

Barnes was just purchased by Clarus Corporation, owners of Sierra Bullets: https://www.thetacticalwire.com/releases/c65a4dfc-9a45-42a7-88f8-601240845d3c

That's absolutely GREAT news...

Here's a couple of quotes:


___

I now give absolutely zero fucks what PSA does with Remington ammo; Barnes is/was the only thing I care(d) about.


PSA didn't get the ammo business it's going to Vista Outdoor. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?44532-Remington-s-Ammo-Business-for-Sale&p=1118735&viewfull=1#post1118735

[RevolverRob]

PSA didn't get the ammo business it's going to Vista Outdoor. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?44532-Remington-s-Ammo-Business-for-Sale&p=1118735&viewfull=1#post1118735

Excellent.

Because I'll be honest, all I could see was PSA trying to exclusive line ammo and fucking everything up. I really don't care much what they do with the lines they bought.

[jetfire]

Here's a not at all happy or fun update: we now know who Roundhill Group is. According to court filings, the principles of Roundhill are Scott Soura (run of the mill VC type), and Richmond Italia, who sits on the BOD of GI Sportz, a paintball gear company.

Also on the board of GI Sportz is...Ken D'Arcy, the current CEO of Remington, who is arguably responsible for running them into the ground. This whole thing stinks of collusion.


https://youtu.be/P3ABLNaI5DY

[5pins]

I don't get the conspiracy. Everyone knew Remington was on the chopping block for months so how is someone telling someone who tells someone a big deal. I would imagine when Richmond Italia told Scott Soura his reaction should have been "no shit Sherlock".

[jetfire]

I don't get the conspiracy. Everyone knew Remington was on the chopping block for months so how is someone telling someone who tells someone a big deal. I would imagine when Richmond Italia told Scott Soura his reaction should have been "no shit Sherlock".

It's more that the current CEO of Remington told Richmond Italia about Remington's assets being for sale. Richmond and Ken sit on the board of the paintball company together.