SFC Walter Taylor

[TGS]

This (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-afghan-shooting-20120610,0,5374049,full.story) immediately made me think of Captain Charles McVay, the commander of the USS Indianapolis that the Navy court-martialed for losing his ship in combat.

Kind of unbelievable, but I guess there might be more to the event that this news article isn't showing.

[fuse]

Astounding

[Corlissimo]

I find this quote, in particular, very disturbing:

"[Our] main mission is to protect the Afghan people, and ISAF realizes that incidents of this kind damage the confidence of both the Afghan people and the government in ISAF..." - Lt. Col. Jimmie E. Cummings Jr.

[Lon]

That sickens me. Pull em all out and bring em home.

[TAZ]

I find this quote, in particular, very disturbing:

"[Our] main mission is to protect the Afghan people, and ISAF realizes that incidents of this kind damage the confidence of both the Afghan people and the government in ISAF..." - Lt. Col. Jimmie E. Cummings Jr.

HMMMM interesting. Guess my uneducated assumption that US service men/women and the tax expenses associated with their deployment was to protect US citizens and interests is just wrong.

I agree, bring them home and let the Afghans protect themselves. So long as the Afghans aren't able to project violence out of their region their safety or lack there of is none of my concern. I they project violence outside their borders once again level the shit hole from stem to stern once more.

[TGS]

I find this quote, in particular, very disturbing:

"[Our] main mission is to protect the Afghan people, and ISAF realizes that incidents of this kind damage the confidence of both the Afghan people and the government in ISAF..." - Lt. Col. Jimmie E. Cummings Jr.

I'm not sure I understand why you find that particular statement so disturbing.

[LittleLebowski]

This (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-afghan-shooting-20120610,0,5374049,full.story) immediately made me think of Captain Charles McVay, the commander of the USS Indianapolis that the Navy court-martialed for losing his ship in combat.

Kind of unbelievable, but I guess there might be more to the event that this news article isn't showing.

I just read up on Captain McVay. Terrible conduct by the Navy. Thank you for mentioning that.

[TGS]

I just read up on Captain McVay. Terrible conduct by the Navy. Thank you for mentioning that.

When you've fouled up so bad that you need to ask the enemy for help in testifying against your own people to put the S in BAMCIS (Shift the blame), you know you've really fouled up.

Definitely a shameful chapter in American history. I hope this one doesn't turn out similarly shameful because of needing to put the S in BAMCIS due to the failures of our upper level command.

[Corlissimo]

I'm not sure I understand why you find that particular statement so disturbing.

Maybe "disturbing" isn't the exact right word, but I think it's close.
I'm not surprised about it, but disturbed that a spokesman would just come right out and say what he said to the press.

[Suvorov]

This whole thing just makes me sick.

Can anyone give me a real world example where and when we won a war by winning the "hearts and minds" of our enemy?

The whole concept that you can fight a war without anyone on the sidelines getting hurt is a myth, and if you are not willing to accept that and let your soldiers fight, then you have no business fighting the war in the first place.

[TGS]

Maybe "disturbing" isn't the exact right word, but I think it's close.
I'm not surprised about it, but disturbed that a spokesman would just come right out and say what he said to the press.

The purpose to my post was that I didn't understand why you're getting at what you're getting at, not your adjective used to describe how you feel.

Our current COIN strategy revolves around winning the support of the people through good, rather than ruling them by fear and intimidation (the radical Muslims). It's a pretty simple idea.....after a while, you can only intimidate the people so much before they say, "screw you, we're going with the people that at least try to protect us and give us food, water, electricity, infrastructure, ect" and has indeed worked before. The idea of maintaining the security of the people is absolutely crucial to that strategy and the purpose of having troops there, and it's nothing new. It's been that way, in concept, for quite some time. So, I just don't get why his statement that you quoted is so controversial. See what I'm steppin' in? I feel like I'm missing something.

[TGS]

Can anyone give me a real world example where and when we won a war by winning the "hearts and minds" of our enemy?

There's a lot of examples on the tactical (read: hamlet) level, but usually ours and the host nations disconnected and self-serving high ranking commanders and politicians screw the pooch on the regional to national level.

Vietnam is a case study of success for our COIN working at the grassroots level. There's a lot of factors that screwed it up at the operational and strategic levels. For our contemporary operations the most intelligent reasoning I've read for our COIN strategy not working how we want to doesn't revolve around the idea that winning hearts and minds is flawed, but rather we're not dealing with a true insurgency in the traditional sense, so COIN in general isn't the approach we should be taking. Also, remember that Afghanistan has a long and amazing history of brutality not working....so trying the hearts and minds approach was a pretty logical thing to do. Brutality by an outsider hasn't worked in Afghanistan in multiple attempts ranging from classical times all the way up to as recently as the Russians...there's a reason it's called the graveyard of empires.

In any case, COIN and our status in OEF is not really the point of me posting this article and starting this thread. I was posting the article because it's a shame (if the article is true) that this guy is going through what he is for making a split second decision after getting blown up, and I think it deserves some attention from our populace. When I first joined the military, a respectable senior told me "I can't get mad at you for making a mistake out of commission. However, if you make a mistake because of omission, I'll boot stomp your face." I guess that was a pretty influential statement on me, and so it makes me a little perturbed to see a soldier get messed with for making a decision based what he reasonably believed and can cite the reasons that influenced his decision making....especially after he was just blown up and obviously has some severely impaired cognitive capacity resulting from it.

There's guys on here with much more military experience than I as I only did 4 years (in a non-combat function at that), so correct me if I'm wrong guys.....but in my experience the military has a recently growing habit of smashing people for mistakes from commission and instead advancing guys who haven't had the chance to make mistakes, rather than picking them up, dusting off their shoulder and turning them into great leaders to learn off their mistakes/experiences. Obviously if you do a village that's one thing......but this? Damn. Of course, there could very well be something to this story that the news article isn't covering.

[WDW]

Dumd S*** like this is why I got out and why I have since discouraged my brother from ever enlisting. I noticed a disturbing change in EOF/ROE in '08 from what it was in '05 and it almost sounded to me like our command valued the lives of the Iraqi's over us, I finalized my decision to get out shortly afterwards.

[jstyer]

There's a lot of examples on the tactical (read: hamlet) level, but usually ours and the host nations disconnected and self-serving high ranking commanders and politicians screw the pooch on the regional to national level.


This.

Read Eric Gleiten's "The Heart and the Fist"

Active duty navy seal and Rhoads scholar who earned his PHD at Oxford.

[Kyle Reese]

It's only going to get worse, as we withdraw more and more forces and rely more on the ANSF to pick up the slack over here.

[TGS]

Guys,

If you think this issue needs attention from our elected officials to oversee this matter, then check out this link: http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

At that link you can find out who your elected representatives are and alert them of your concern. It's one thing you can do, and might matter a lot more than just "liking" the In Support of SFC Walter Taylor (http://www.facebook.com/pages/In-Support-of-SFC-Walter-Taylor/407113582661313) facebook page.

Obviously, he might very well have committed negligent homicide....we weren't there, we don't know. All I do know is that I don't trust the US Army to perform a fair investigation of the event. While in the USMC I was injured, and had a JAG, Recovery Care Coordinator, Chaplain, and Wounded Warrior Regiment representative pushing to get me a proper medical evaluation, treatment, and medical board for disability ratings. In response, the command put on a preliminary investigation and tried to get me with malingering by scheduling medical appointments on my behalf and not telling me, meaning I missed my appointed place of duty and wasn't addressing my medical problems (receipts that I presented showing out-of-pocket expenses seeking treatment on my own dime kinda squashed that notion :cool: ). They also tried prescribing tons of narcotics which I refused....I can only imagine to label me as a drug-seeker like they do to 1/3 of injured veterans (what a better plan than the get them addicted to drugs and then put the blame on the vet?).

Besides me, there were several enlisted guys with combat injuries that the command was pulling the same bullshit on simply because they needed to play the numbers game with the medical rosters and were being pressed by higher to not give Marines the proper evaluation, treatment and disability ratings for budgetary reasons. To my knowledge, the JAG wasn't able to get anywhere with any one of us. So, I have absolutely no faith in them, and can't imagine the stress that SFC Taylor is going through. I'm not even religious, but a truly awesome Chaplain was the only way I was able to stay sane until I left the Marines. I hope Taylor has that sort of support.

[Corlissimo]

The purpose to my post was that I didn't understand why you're getting at what you're getting at, not your adjective used to describe how you feel.

Our current COIN strategy revolves around winning the support of the people through good, rather than ruling them by fear and intimidation (the radical Muslims). It's a pretty simple idea.....after a while, you can only intimidate the people so much before they say, "screw you, we're going with the people that at least try to protect us and give us food, water, electricity, infrastructure, ect" and has indeed worked before. The idea of maintaining the security of the people is absolutely crucial to that strategy and the purpose of having troops there, and it's nothing new. It's been that way, in concept, for quite some time. So, I just don't get why his statement that you quoted is so controversial. See what I'm steppin' in? I feel like I'm missing something.


First off, sorry for the delayed response. Lots of family stuff last week.

Second, my disclaimer: I am just a .dad. Never served, not LE, just a regular guy. That said, I have the utmost respect for those who have, and continue to serve, whether they are .mil, LE, FD etc. Anyone who is willing to run towards danger in service to others gets my respect automatically -- at least as long they remain true.

Third, you didn't miss anything... mainly because I just sort of left it out. My bad. Sometimes I tend to bite my tongue and sanitize my thoughts when posting on forums because many folks just can't seem to be mature about others viewpoints. Far too may closed minds on most forums. Of course, this forum is not like those places. The P-F "Romper Room" area is more mature than just about any other forum's posting areas for serious topics... that I have seen at least. I'm just not used to interacting with real adults about grown-up stuff as I haven't been posting here very long.

My Unedited Thoughts on This Topic

I can totally get behind "winning hearts" etc. It has merits that cannot be denied. But, I do believe that while engaged in these efforts, the very souls charged with carrying out this effort should not be put on that "front line" and then be hung out to dry as it were. To me, this is what has happened in this case. It's a damned shame and it gets my ire up.

I can understand that there is a need to carefully manage ROE in order to avoid unnecessary casualties. I would expect nothing less than the best effort of all involved, from top to bottom, when it comes to this. It appears that Sgt. Taylor had plenty of experience (3 previous deployments), was deemed a good leader and given charge over others. While standards do need to be high for those in such positions, the experience that this soldier has accumulated during his time under fire HAS to count for something too.

We don’t know what his personnel record has in it, so the article is all we have to go on right now. From the details available to me at this point all I can say is that this situation sucks and that Sgt. Taylor deserves better than what he’s gotten so far. And just to be crystal clear: I’m pissed about it. (Not meant to be sarcastic, just emphatic)

Thanks for letting me vent… and for drawing me out. :cool: