CA Governor Newsom: "it's time to sober up about green energy flaws"

[LittleLebowski]

https://www.breitbart.com/environment/2020/08/17/california-gov-gavin-newsom-time-to-sober-up-about-green-renewable-energy-flaws/


California Gov. Gavin Newsom said Monday that the state had to “sober up” about the fact that renewable energy sources had failed to provide enough power for the state at peak demand, and needed “backup” and “insurance” from other sources.

Newsom addressed journalists and the public in the midst of ongoing electricity blackouts that began on Friday, as hundreds of thousands of Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) customers in northern and central California lost power.

[LittleLebowski]

https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/08/18/california-has-first-rolling-blackouts-in-19-years-and-everyone-faces-blame-1309757



California has first rolling blackouts in 19 years — and everyone faces blame

While California braced for another round of rolling blackouts Monday night, the state’s grid operator held off for a second straight night.

SACRAMENTO — The exact root of California’s rolling blackouts is still unclear as more power outages loom, and that's allowed everyone to point fingers.

Energy experts Monday cited a litany of potential causes for the rotating outages that affected hundreds of thousands of California residents Friday and Saturday nights: ballooning demand, inadequate transmission, an overreliance on renewable energy and the incursion of new energy providers that don't have the same obligation to maintain reserves as traditional utilities do.

[Borderland]

I love CA.

Someone has to be the example of what not to do. If every state was like CA, we would all have rolling blackouts, yuge gov't debt, a water shortage, bad roads, high taxes and unaffordable housing.

Did I miss anything?

Edit. It was 130° in Death Valley yesterday.

https://www.space.com/death-valley-temperature-record.html#:~:text=Related%3A%20Hell%20on%20Earth %3A%20Take%20a%20photo%20tour%20of%20Death%20Valle y&text=Depends%20on%20who%20you%20ask,aptly%20named% 20Furnace%20Creek%20Ranch.

[JodyH]

I love CA.

Someone has to be the example of what not to do. If every state was like CA, we would all have rolling blackouts, yuge gov't debt, a water shortage, bad roads, high taxes and unaffordable housing.

Did I miss anything?
Unchecked misdemeanor and felonious criminal activity.

[Totem Polar]

I love CA.

Someone has to be the example of what not to do. If every state was like CA, we would all have rolling blackouts, yuge gov't debt, a water shortage, bad roads, high taxes and unaffordable housing.

Did I miss anything?


1/3rd of the nation’s welfare recipients.

[Borderland]

1/3rd of the nation’s welfare recipients.

Poorest state in the US when you consider the cost of living there and average income.

[Mark D]

1/3rd of the nation’s welfare recipients.

Source? Not doubting you, but interested to learn more.

On the subject of energy, I'm pleasantly surprised that Gov, Newsome acknowledged the obvious. I work adjacent to the energy sector, and I see an incredible amount of pubic and government ignorance regarding how important "legacy" energy sources are.

[Bergeron]

If you want to produce meaningful amounts of power/energy, you will burn hydrocarbons (coal, oil, or gas) or use fission. While there are niche applications for other sources, the net benefits on large scales do not exist, and these other sources can be net environmental negatives. How much energy is used, and pollution created, by fabricating the other energy sources? Net negative.

If we were serious about green energy, we would be building new generation fission power plants and natural gas plants at the maximum possible rate, and the environment would be better for us doing it.

Amazing that the message is finally beginning to permeate the minds of Cali leadership.

[Suvorov]

Unchecked misdemeanor and felonious criminal activity.

But if you attempt to order a 30 round magazine despite the 9th circuit court ruling the laws against it unconstitutional, the CA DOJ has stated they will crush you.

[0ddl0t]

PG&E gets a ton of blame from the media & masses - and they do have legitimate issues - but they have also been hamstrung by regulators. For over 10 years PG&E tried to get significant rate increases, and for 10 years regulators denied or granted very limited rate changes. Meanwhile "low income" customers (those earning < $50,000/year for a family of 4) get an additional 35% discount on energy bills and with CA's changing demographics (middle class exodus + influx of illegal immigrants) this "low income" cohort keeps growing. And with all new homes required to have solar, demand for grid electricity has actually gone down which means the bankrupt utility has had to shut down power plants and maintain an ever growing grid with less income. The shutting down plants isn't normally a problem until you have outlier events like 110° heat alongside cloud cover and/or smoke, like now.

[OlongJohnson]

At least my NorCal-dwelling family pays a minimum rate/kW*hr approximately triple what I pay here in Houston, and depending on usage, it can go up to 5x. So there's that...

[Totem Polar]

Source? Not doubting you, but interested to learn more.


I read it in some article on income iniquity in CA—if it was a county, it would be right up there with the third worlders. I vividly recall the sentence structure: “if you are on welfare in the USA, there’s a 1 in 3 chance you live in CA...”

I’ll see If I can find that article, but in the meantime, here’s the first hit I got off google:

[Baldanders]

I read it in some article on income iniquity in CA—if it was a county, it would be right up there with the third worlders. I vividly recall the sentence structure: “if you are on welfare in the USA, there’s a 1 in 3 chance you live in CA...”

I’ll see If I can find that article, but in the meantime, here’s the first hit I got off google:

Thanks for the data!

My favorite political website Fabius Maximus has described Cali as "inner party(politicians, Holllywood types, tech execs and entrepreneurs), outer party(tech workers and some creative types) and plebs (everyone else). That is probably more true of the Bay Area than anywhere else, and ignores farmers, but it seems pretty accurate otherwise. Cali is probably the best example of why great and not-so-great CEOs may not have great ideas about how to run the government. The same ideas that propel an IT company to great success may have nothing to do with public policy success.

I am still waiting for "California ways and results" to become a talking point in this election, but if the Trump ads I see are any indication, the campaign will be about women who are "scared of Biden", about 2/3 brown, 1/3 white. An OK move I guess, but not too interesting.

Nuclear power would be a great solution for power woes, IMO, but the battle to make it publicly acceptable is probably a bigger uphill climb than broadening support for the 2A. The USSR really made that difficult.

[cheby]

Did I miss anything?

.

Democrats

[Clusterfrack]

Like so much of the Democratic agenda, green energy is all about symbolic gestures. In this case, the appearance of doing something good for the environment.

[Borderland]

Thanks for the data!

My favorite political website Fabius Maximus has described Cali as "inner party(politicians, Holllywood types, tech execs and entrepreneurs), outer party(tech workers and some creative types) and plebs (everyone else). That is probably more true of the Bay Area than anywhere else, and ignores farmers, but it seems pretty accurate otherwise. Cali is probably the best example of why great and not-so-great CEOs may not have great ideas about how to run the government. The same ideas that propel an IT company to great success may have nothing to do with public policy success.

I am still waiting for "California ways and results" to become a talking point in this election, but if the Trump ads I see are any indication, the campaign will be about women who are "scared of Biden", about 2/3 brown, 1/3 white. An OK move I guess, but not too interesting.

Nuclear power would be a great solution for power woes, IMO, but the battle to make it publicly acceptable is probably a bigger uphill climb than broadening support for the 2A. The USSR really made that difficult.

We have a plant here that was started and never finished. I think the Satsop cooling towers are still there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WNP-3_and_WNP-5

[blues]

Like so much of the Democratic agenda, green energy is all about symbolic gestures. In this case, the appearance of doing something good for the environment.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7a/11/4f/7a114f1442edb3955965e6c8c8ccb6e7.jpg

"Just one word...methane!"

[OlongJohnson]

Nuclear power would be a great solution for power woes, IMO, but the battle to make it publicly acceptable is probably a bigger uphill climb than broadening support for the 2A. The USSR really made that difficult.

And Fukushima. Haven't heard much about cesium in seafood lately, would be interesting to refresh on.


We have a plant here that was started and never finished. I think the Satsop cooling towers are still there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WNP-3_and_WNP-5

And that Hanford, place, whatever goes on there...

[critter]

I read it in some article on income iniquity in CA—
...

A lamb sacrifice perhaps?... if they could afford it, that is.

[Totem Polar]

A lamb sacrifice perhaps?... if they could afford it, that is.

I kind of like the way it reads, as is.
:cool:

[critter]

I kind of like the way it reads, as is.
:cool:

Yes indeed. I do too. It's like... perfection. :D

[Borderland]

And Fukushima. Haven't heard much about cesium in seafood lately, would be interesting to refresh on.



And that Hanford, place, whatever goes on there...

Mostly cleanup I think. :)

[Doug]

Don’t forget there are some Califorina cities specifically getting rid of natural gas which makes them more dependent on electricity...

Last year “Berkeley became first US city to ban natural gas.”
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/23/berkeley-natural-gas-ban-environment

[paherne]

Gavin doesn't give a shit about Californians except he remembers that we voted out Gray Davis for shit like this. He can't run for POTUS in '24 if he gets the boot from CA.

[omega9]

Hopefully they wise up and start building more natural gas peaker plants. A lot of peakers here in Texas are started remotely by the QSE when power is in demand.

[Exiledviking]

Gavin doesn't give a shit about Californians except he remembers that we voted out Gray Davis for shit like this. He can't run for POTUS in '24 if he gets the boot from CA.So much this! Newsom is simply trying to divert the blame. He says whatever is expedient.

Maybe he's feeling the heat of the recall effort against him...
A lot of people are not happy with him here in California.

[LittleLebowski]

Gavin doesn't give a shit about Californians except he remembers that we voted out Gray Davis for shit like this. He can't run for POTUS in '24 if he gets the boot from CA.

He looks like a Hollywood caricature of "slimy politician" with that awful hair.

[blues]

He looks like a Hollywood caricature of "slimy politician" with that awful hair.

So he shares awful hair with Trump, and Kimberly Guilfoyle with the heir. Seems like there is a bit of commonality. :p

[Kanye Wyoming]

He seems like the kind of genius who shits in his pants and is genuinely surprised to find that people notice an unpleasant odor.

[LittleLebowski]

Seriously creepy looking.

https://www.thereporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/1021414182.jpg

[LittleLebowski]

Arizonans are being asked to set their thermostats to 80 degrees in order to help California.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/energy/2020/08/18/arizona-public-service-tucson-electric-power-ask-customers-cut-power-use-until-8-p-m/3395188001/

[Bergeron]

On one hand, I get that environmental concerns are real, and can be addressed by human action, but on the other hand, science, engineering, and real human need cannot be ignored.

Natural gas power plants are far, far better from emissions standpoint than coal or oil plants, and we do the environment a favor by replacing coal or oil with gas. Resistance to natural gas power seems to mainly be driven by political hostility to Oil & Gas companies

Fission power has a safety and enviornmental record unmatched by any other industrial scale power source. Fears of accidents in operation and of spent fuel are overblown and misinformed. That's the public perception, though, and turning it around would require educating politicans.

[trailrunner]

Fission power has a safety and enviornmental record unmatched by any other industrial scale power source. Fears of accidents in operation and of spent fuel are overblown and misinformed. That's the public perception, though, and turning it around would require educating politicans.

I really think we should convert as much as possible to nuclear. Solar, hydro, and wind are fine, but convert all other plants that burn anything (coal, oil, gas) to nuclear so that it becomes the baseline, and the green energy sources are gravy. With the right design and with the right management, nuclear can be made safe.

[Bergeron]

Thank you, trailrunner, agreed!

I've been in multiple U.S. nuclear power plants, and the safety present in design, operation, and security is impressive and beyond anything I've seen in any other industry or type of industrial plant. The most recent generation of nuclear power plant design is even more fundamentally safe in design, operation, and in waste production, but permits must be obtained from the government for construction of these new designs, and those permits are not forthcoming.

I've been inside the original reactor at Oak Ridge (I hestitate to consider a nuclear pile a "reactor"), and yes, the safety there was unpleasant and unsatisfactory at best. The safety and reliablity difference in design and operation between the original nuclear reactor designs and what exists now is far greater than the difference between the earliest airliners and today. We suffer from our politican's lack of understanding of the great strides made in nuclear power from its very earliest days. It's not The Simpsons out there in the real world.

[mtnbkr]

I really think we should convert as much as possible to nuclear. Solar, hydro, and wind are fine, but convert all other plants that burn anything (coal, oil, gas) to nuclear so that it becomes the baseline, and the green energy sources are gravy. With the right design and with the right management, nuclear can be made safe.

Yup. I'm far from an expert, but based on what I've read, I would agree completely.

Apparently there are a class of reactor-based "power plants" that can be miniaturized and require virtually no maintenance and monitoring (black box). They could be dropped into small communities and provide power there for decades. Also IIRC, the radioactive material inside isn't weaponizable and the entire unit would be sealed and not easily breached. Imagine a power grid that is distributed, decentralized, not interconnected, and not subject to computerized attack. Basically a battery in the ground.

Chris

[DDTSGM]

Arizonans are being asked to set their thermostats to 80 degrees in order to help California.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/energy/2020/08/18/arizona-public-service-tucson-electric-power-ask-customers-cut-power-use-until-8-p-m/3395188001/

I think it's important to clarify that it was not to help California.

Taken in context, it isn't to help California it's to avoid being like California with rolling blackouts.

[ralph]

Yup. I'm far from an expert, but based on what I've read, I would agree completely.

Apparently there are a class of reactor-based "power plants" that can be miniaturized and require virtually no maintenance and monitoring (black box). They could be dropped into small communities and provide power there for decades. Also IIRC, the radioactive material inside isn't weaponizable and the entire unit would be sealed and not easily breached. Imagine a power grid that is distributed, decentralized, not interconnected, and not subject to computerized attack. Basically a battery in the ground.



Chris

The only thing wrong with that is, anything made by man is flawed in some way, sooner or later one of these little wonders is going to take a serious shit. Frankly, I’d much rather have a gas fired power plant, relatively clean, and compared to a nuke plant, much cheaper, and easier to build, the NRC isn’t involved. The worst that can happen at a gas fired plant is if the gas turbines took a dump, in which case you replace them. With a nuke the worst that could happen is for it to get away from them, and you have to evacuate the area for a few hundred years... I worked in both in the past, I’ll take the gas fired plants every time.

[DrkBlue]

Thank you, trailrunner, agreed!

I've been in multiple U.S. nuclear power plants, and the safety present in design, operation, and security is impressive and beyond anything I've seen in any other industry or type of industrial plant. The most recent generation of nuclear power plant design is even more fundamentally safe in design, operation, and in waste production, but permits must be obtained from the government for construction of these new designs, and those permits are not forthcoming.

I've been inside the original reactor at Oak Ridge (I hestitate to consider a nuclear pile a "reactor"), and yes, the safety there was unpleasant and unsatisfactory at best. The safety and reliablity difference in design and operation between the original nuclear reactor designs and what exists now is far greater than the difference between the earliest airliners and today. We suffer from our politican's lack of understanding of the great strides made in nuclear power from its very earliest days. It's not The Simpsons out there in the real world.

It may not be the Simpsons, but I have soured on the US nuclear industry over the last decade. In spite of the numerous attempts financed with profligate taxpayer funding, we still have no small modular reactors in service (Utah/Idaho project is ready to collapse) and the present Southern Companies reactor project probably should end up in an indictment.

I have been to the SL-1 remains. Safety still is not that foolproof, safeguards or not.
I have been to NTS where the dry storage is being implemented. The US failed to produce an adequate waste solution over the last 40+ years.
The industry will die in our lifetimes.

As for Cali, Sacramento has had a bill in the last four sessions to create a regional electric market to head off what happened this week. Because California could not force the rest of the West to have 100% renewables/100% unreliables, they refused to compromise. Reaping the whirlwind.

[DMF13]

Arizonans are being asked to set their thermostats to 80 degrees in order to help California.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/money/business/energy/2020/08/18/arizona-public-service-tucson-electric-power-ask-customers-cut-power-use-until-8-p-m/3395188001/That's not what the article says. It says they are worried about the same problem occurring in AZ, and hoping people in AZ will cut back on electricity demand to keep AZ from experiencing blackouts like what is occurring in CA. They are asking people in AZ to do it to help people in AZ.

". . . That prompted an Arizona energy regulator on Monday to call for a special meeting to ensure California-style blackouts don't come to Phoenix. . ."

". . . Arizona has plenty of power plants to meet its own customer demand, but the fear Tuesday was that if any of the major power plants were to have a problem, there was not enough "extra" power that could be purchased in the region to take up the slack, said Brad Albert, APS vice president of resource management. . ."

'These decisions are really based on our ability to serve customers reliably,' Albert said 'We don't make these decisions based on being able to come to California's assistance or something like that.' . . . "

[Shoresy]

I think it's important to clarify that it was not to help California.

Taken in context, it isn't to help California it's to avoid being like California with rolling blackouts.


That's not what the article says. It says they are worried about the same problem occurring in AZ, and hoping people in AZ will cut back on electricity demand to keep AZ from experiencing blackouts like what is occurring in CA. They are asking people in AZ to do it to help people in AZ.

". . . That prompted an Arizona energy regulator on Monday to call for a special meeting to ensure California-style blackouts don't come to Phoenix. . ."

". . . Arizona has plenty of power plants to meet its own customer demand, but the fear Tuesday was that if any of the major power plants were to have a problem, there was not enough "extra" power that could be purchased in the region to take up the slack, said Brad Albert, APS vice president of resource management. . ."

'These decisions are really based on our ability to serve customers reliably,' Albert said 'We don't make these decisions based on being able to come to California's assistance or something like that.' . . . "


"Don't be like California" seems like a sound plan.

[DDTSGM]

That's not what the article says. It says they are worried about the same problem occurring in AZ, and hoping people in AZ will cut back on electricity demand to keep AZ from experiencing blackouts like what is occurring in CA. They are asking people in AZ to do it to help people in AZ.

". . . That prompted an Arizona energy regulator on Monday to call for a special meeting to ensure California-style blackouts don't come to Phoenix. . ."

". . . Arizona has plenty of power plants to meet its own customer demand, but the fear Tuesday was that if any of the major power plants were to have a problem, there was not enough "extra" power that could be purchased in the region to take up the slack, said Brad Albert, APS vice president of resource management. . ."

'These decisions are really based on our ability to serve customers reliably,' Albert said 'We don't make these decisions based on being able to come to California's assistance or something like that.' . . . "


Apparently your less scared of LL than me - see post 37.

LL - no need to tell me I don't need to be scared, I'm not, just my passive-aggressive way of telling DMF13 - 'hey, I already posted that!'

[Maple Syrup Actual]

On one hand, I get that environmental concerns are real, and can be addressed by human action, but on the other hand, science, engineering, and real human need cannot be ignored.

Natural gas power plants are far, far better from emissions standpoint than coal or oil plants, and we do the environment a favor by replacing coal or oil with gas. Resistance to natural gas power seems to mainly be driven by political hostility to Oil & Gas companies

Fission power has a safety and enviornmental record unmatched by any other industrial scale power source. Fears of accidents in operation and of spent fuel are overblown and misinformed. That's the public perception, though, and turning it around would require educating politicans.

I don't pretend to have any particular knowledge about the safety or cost of nuclear power but this aligns perfectly with my beliefs which are, again, based on nothing.

It's extremely frustrating to me, living in a NG-rich region which was supposed to be a giant exporter to Asia, that our urban karen population tanked the industry on the grounds that it is a fossil fuel...when it would clearly be a massive improvement over coal. And it also seems clear that if we actually want non-fossil energy as a mainstream option, that's going to mean nuclear. I'm sure the costs of nuclear power are no joke; the initial investment looks like it would be...significant. But then the other non-petroleum options aren't cheap if you want actual large scale power production, either. And I assume that the history of nuclear accidents is almost by definition a list of problems with old plant technology. It really seems like modern power plants would have been designed with a knowledge of past disasters, and taken those problems into account.

Up in Saskatchewan there was a push to develop small-scale nuclear for remote communities and construction projects...not sure where that's at but it seems like an absolute no-brainer to me. We have plenty of little hamlets up north running on huge diesel generators. It doesn't jump out at me that transporting enough fuel to run generators to run towns is really the greenest option.

[Exiledviking]

Seriously creepy looking.

https://www.thereporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/1021414182.jpgThe new Joker in an upcoming Batman movie.

[LittleLebowski]

Apparently your less scared of LL than me - see post 37.

LL - no need to tell me I don't need to be scared, I'm not, just my passive-aggressive way of telling DMF13 - 'hey, I already posted that!'

Yeah, I fucked that up, oh well :D