Front Sight Focus Shift Timing

[Coyote41]

At what point in the extension do you shift focus from the target to the front sight post?

This has been an issue plaguing me recently. Too early of a shift and I find I am hunting for the target toward the end of extension (particularly for small/distant targets). Too late of a shift (occasionally) I find the sights misaligned. I’ve recalled several good shooters mention they pick up the front sight as soon as they can, but this seems to be slowing me down. What am I doing wrong?

How do you do it? Does it change for different pistols (i.e. a DA where you are taking up slack through the extension vs. a 1911)? Does it change based on target size? Distance?


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[EricM]

This is something I dug into a few years ago, and your comment about "too early of a shift and I find I am hunting for the target toward the end of extension" makes me think that you might be doing something I was doing initially: moving your eye to look at the front sight, then bringing your eye and the sights onto the target spot. Instead, try fixing your vision on the target spot and bringing the sights to your eye. You can shift your plane of focus to where the front sight will be before it gets there without looking away from the spot on the target you want to hit. I put up an illustration toward the end of Mr_White's epic Vision thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?10210-Vision&p=432551&viewfull=1#post432551) to make sure I was being clear when I posed the question there. While I never mastered full independence of convergence and accommodation as discussed in that thread, learning to stay on the target spot was a major milestone for me.

Regarding target size and distance, there's been some discussion here recently about when front sight focus is really needed, with some very skilled shooters staying target focused much more than might have been expected a few years ago. At least in part this seems to be from folks doing a lot of target-focused red dot shooting, then going back to irons and finding success while staying target focused. The environment, your vision, type of sights, etc. all play a role in whether target focus is sufficient.

[Leroy]

I pick a spot on the target where my vision is focused and as I bring the the gun to that spot I pick up a fuzzy front (fiber optic/hi vis front really shines here) in my peripheral. Visual focus is still the target. As the fuzzy front gets closer or is almost directly at the aiming spot visual focus can start to shift to the front sight.

For easy targets the visual focus may never shift to the front sight as it is unnecessary. As the target engagement becomes more difficult the visual shift becomes more important.

The real difference in a easy target presentation vs difficult target transition is the time needed to shift visual focus to the front and the longer time needed for trigger manipulation. The mechanics of the draw do not change.

As your skills improve less visual sight focus and faster trigger manipulation become possible. You can still align and aim non-focused sights.

[Gio]

Never.

[Le Français]

Never.

Do you stay target focused with iron sights as well as with a dot?

[Gio]

Do you stay target focused with iron sights as well as with a dot?

Yes, 100%

[JSGlock34]

Back when I was a 'press-out' practitioner, I would use a slightly muzzle high ready position so I could keep the front sight in my field of view, and would transition to the front sight as soon as I started my extension. Using a high-vis/HD style front sight helped with this immensely.

One advantage of the press out as a training technique (especially at the beginner to intermediate level) is that it doesn't require a highly developed index, as you are correcting the sight alignment throughout the process of extending the pistol. I found it works very well with DA/SA guns in particular (pretty sure it evolved from shooting such pistols), and I've seen Todd Green and Ernest Langdon use this technique at a very high level and speed.

Nevertheless, I moved from the press out to an index based draw some time ago, though I've yet to crack the code on consistent target focused shooting. Personally, I think a target focused technique requires an exceptionally developed index to execute, and a strong index - in my experience - requires a ton of practice and repetitions to develop. Being familiar with Gio's dry fire routine (and work ethic)...well, there's a huge amount of work behind that target focused technique.

[Le Français]

Yes, 100%

May I ask if you started using iron sights that way after you started using dots, or if you did/would use iron sights that way even if you hadn’t started/weren’t using dots?

[Duces Tecum]

Error.

[Gio]

May I ask if you started using iron sights that way after you started using dots, or if you did/would use iron sights that way even if you hadn’t started/weren’t using dots?

I have been shooting pure target focus for 2-3 years now with irons, long before i started seriously training with an rds gun, but I actually started out shooting target focus with decent success when I first learned how to shoot a pistol, then had an LE academy drill “front sight focus” into my head to break me of it. When I really got into competitive shooting I realized how much slower I was with front sight focus, so I started gravitating back toward a target focus and realized I can shoot just as accurately but much faster at any practical handgun distance.

[Le Français]

I have been shooting pure target focus for 2-3 years now with irons, long before i started seriously training with an rds gun, but I actually started out shooting target focus with decent success when I first learned how to shoot a pistol, then had an LE academy drill “front sight focus” into my head to break me of it. When I really got into competitive shooting I realized how much slower I was with front sight focus, so I started gravitating back toward a target focus and realized I can shoot just as accurately but much faster at any practical handgun distance.

Very interesting; thanks. It's illuminating to get this kind of perspective, especially from people who can shoot (USPSA GM) and who also work in an environment where shot accountability is paramount (LEO).

[Olim9]

I have been shooting pure target focus for 2-3 years now with irons, long before i started seriously training with an rds gun, but I actually started out shooting target focus with decent success when I first learned how to shoot a pistol, then had an LE academy drill “front sight focus” into my head to break me of it. When I really got into competitive shooting I realized how much slower I was with front sight focus, so I started gravitating back toward a target focus and realized I can shoot just as accurately but much faster at any practical handgun distance.

In your opinion, where does introducing a new shooter to target focused shooting with irons begin? I was taught to shoot front sight focus like everyone else and it was until after shooting an RDS for months was when I realized just how well I could shoot with target focused even with irons.

[Gio]

In your opinion, where does introducing a new shooter to target focused shooting with irons begin? I was taught to shoot front sight focus like everyone else and it was until after shooting an RDS for months was when I realized just how well I could shoot with target focused even with irons.

I would start a new shooter right away on target focus with irons and be sure to use a high viz front sight. It's much harder to target focus with black on black sights. It definitely takes conscious practice if you are used to a front sight focus, and I find that the harder the target difficulty, the more likely a shooter is to revert back to a front sight focus.

Using an RDS isn't a cure for sight focused shooting though. Most shooters tend to red dot focus as well instead of target focus with an RDS. The best way to break this habit is to turn the red dot intensity down to where you can hardly see it and dry fire and live fire with it like that.

[Olim9]

I would start a new shooter right away on target focus

This is very interesting. I've always assumed target focused shooting with irons, particularly at longer distances was a more 'intermediate' skill, something you learn later on.

[BJXDS]

Very interesting indeed. Basically two very different schools of thought, clear sights/fuzzy target and clear target fuzzy sights.

This really does make the adage, see what you need to see to get the hits you need to get.

IMHO target focus, with the assumption of target focus being much faster than sight focus for handgun distances; what is the max distance; 15 yards, 25 yards...??

For the target focus proponents do use it for say 25 yard B8 shooting??

I am just curious because I use sight focus and I don't see changing. The Old dog New trick thing, but the concept is interesting.

Also IMHO sight focus relies on a tremendous amount of hand/eye coordination, which many may simply never achieve, but WTF do I know.

Interesting topic indeed.

[Clusterfrack]

IMHO target focus, with the assumption of target focus being much faster than sight focus for handgun distances; what is the max distance; 15 yards, 25 yards...??

For the target focus proponents do use it for say 25 yard B8 shooting??

I am just curious because I use sight focus and I don't see changing. The Old dog New trick thing, but the concept is interesting.

Also IMHO sight focus relies on a tremendous amount of hand/eye coordination, which many may simply never achieve, but WTF do I know.

Interesting topic indeed.

Yes, but my index and recoil control are just now getting good enough that I can pull it off at 25 yds. It would be great to be able to take a new shooter down this path quickly, but in my experience this takes a lot of practice. There are two schools of thought: go for target focus right away (as Gio suggests), or wait until a shooter's index (automatic sight alignment) is mature enough, and then switch to target focus.


Shadow2, Production rig. 25yd Bill Drill. Target focus. One of several good runs today. Maybe more importantly, I didn’t have any disasters.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200821/9407b5e0636335b66974fbde1c5ffa3d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200821/6914664332a540e79ac440928e482bc8.jpg

[Clusterfrack]

Interestingly, a local match yesterday included multiple 35-40 yd classic targets (turtles) and steel. I shot the entire match target focus, and it didn’t work that well for me. It wasn’t a disaster, but 3 Deltas, a Mike, and makeups on steel were frustrating.

I’m going to continue to explore the best way for me to confirm sight alignment on distant or high risk targets. Clearly I’m not yet able to do full target focus on everything.

[Gio]

I front sight focus for a bullseye course because a hard front sight focus really allows you to get perfect centering of the front sight, perfect level of the top of the front sight with the rear, and the gun isn’t moving and the single target isn’t moving. For any action pistol sports, defensive shooting, etc, the sights are never stationary and perfectly aligned anyway. I can get them just as close to aligned at speed with a target focus as I can with a front sight focus on a single target, and I can drive them much faster to the spot I need them to be on the next target by staring at the spot I need them to move to. Some great drills for practicing this are 7 to 25 yd Blake drills and Ben stoeger’s accelerator drill. Try running the drills both ways dozens of times at different distances and see what wins out. For me, I am faster and get the same % of A’s/C’s with target focus as I do with front sight focus at distances out to 25-35 yds. My hits are actually better on the transition shot with target focus because I am less likely to under or over transition compared to a front sight focus.

[Clusterfrack]

Gio, I've come to the same conclusion, and like those drills a lot. It's an interesting question of whether I'd have dropped 3 Deltas anyway on the two 40yd turtles using front sight focus, just because those targets came after a long sprint, and a wide transition. I'm not quite there yet, and but I think fully embracing target focus is what I need to level up to G.

[Gio]

Gio, I've come to the same conclusion, and like those drills a lot. It's an interesting question of whether I'd have dropped 3 Deltas anyway on the two 40yd turtles using front sight focus, just because those targets came after a long sprint, and a wide transition. I'm not quite there yet, and but I think fully embracing target focus is what I need to level up to G.

Out of curiosity, what type of sight setup do you have? Front sight width/rear sight width, etc?

Also, do you shoot one eye closed or both open?

[Clusterfrack]

Out of curiosity, what type of sight setup do you have? Front sight width/rear sight width, etc?

Also, do you shoot one eye closed or both open?

Both eyes open. I'm lucky in having a farsighted left eye and a nearsighted dominant right eye. So, when I shoot target focus the sights aren't that blurry--more like what people describe as intermediate focus. I've experimented with closing an eye on very long shots. It doesn't help, and takes longer.

The OEM dimensions on Shadow2 sights are: Rear 0.125" notch, FO front 0.120" wide. I like this combo.

On long shots, the following have to all be acceptable, and under match pressure--especially after a 25yd sprint--that's not a given:
1. Sight alignment and aim point
2. Stable sight picture after transition and split
3. Trigger press
4. Knowing your POI at a given distance

Great discussion! Let's keep this going.

[Gio]

Both eyes open. I'm lucky in having a farsighted left eye and a nearsighted dominant right eye. So, when I shoot target focus the sights aren't that blurry--more like what people describe as intermediate focus. I've experimented with closing an eye on very long shots. It doesn't help, and takes longer.

The OEM dimensions on Shadow2 sights are: Rear 0.125" notch, FO front 0.120" wide. I like this combo.

On long shots, the following have to all be acceptable, and under match pressure--especially after a 25yd sprint--that's not a given:
1. Sight alignment and aim point
2. Stable sight picture after transition and split
3. Trigger press
4. Knowing your POI at a given distance

Great discussion! Let's keep this going.

That is about what I use (.125" rear notch with .115" front sight width).

You probably know the reason I asked, but for the OP and others following, the ratio of front sight width to rear sight width along with your sight radius will definitely impact how accurate you can be with target focus. Imagine if you have a very wide rear notch with a very thin front sight and a long sight radius, you will have a ton of left-right room for the front sight to be within the rear notch and still be visible to you. If you are shooting target focus, you're relying on seeing your front sight peripherally and blurry, which is not going to allow you to get it perfectly aligned like a hard front sight focus. The wider your rear notch and narrower your front sight, the more slop will be possible in your sight alignment while still being able to visibly see the front sight. The tighter you can make the rear notch, the less room for error at the target as long as you can see your high viz sight somewhere in the rear notch. Of course there is a trade off for going too narrow, in that if your grip is slightly off or your index isn't perfect, you won't be able to find the front sight.

[Clusterfrack]

I front sight focus for a bullseye course because a hard front sight focus really allows you to get perfect centering of the front sight, perfect level of the top of the front sight with the rear, and the gun isn’t moving and the single target isn’t moving. For any action pistol sports, defensive shooting, etc, the sights are never stationary and perfectly aligned anyway. I can get them just as close to aligned at speed with a target focus as I can with a front sight focus on a single target, and I can drive them much faster to the spot I need them to be on the next target by staring at the spot I need them to move to. Some great drills for practicing this are 7 to 25 yd Blake drills and Ben stoeger’s accelerator drill. Try running the drills both ways dozens of times at different distances and see what wins out. For me, I am faster and get the same % of A’s/C’s with target focus as I do with front sight focus at distances out to 25-35 yds. My hits are actually better on the transition shot with target focus because I am less likely to under or over transition compared to a front sight focus.

I just want to underscore how important this post is.

[FireHouse1911]

I just want to underscore how important this post is.

Agreed. Very helpful to me as well.


Back when I was a 'press-out' practitioner, I would use a slightly muzzle high ready position so I could keep the front sight in my field of view, and would transition to the front sight as soon as I started my extension. Using a high-vis/HD style front sight helped with this immensely.

One advantage of the press out as a training technique (especially at the beginner to intermediate level) is that it doesn't require a highly developed index, as you are correcting the sight alignment throughout the process of extending the pistol. I found it works very well with DA/SA guns in particular (pretty sure it evolved from shooting such pistols), and I've seen Todd Green and Ernest Langdon use this technique at a very high level and speed.

Nevertheless, I moved from the press out to an index based draw some time ago, though I've yet to crack the code on consistent target focused shooting. Personally, I think a target focused technique requires an exceptionally developed index to execute, and a strong index - in my experience - requires a ton of practice and repetitions to develop. Being familiar with Gio's dry fire routine (and work ethic)...well, there's a huge amount of work behind that target focused technique.

There is a gentleman who owns SOB Tactical who teaches what I think you are talking about here. I had never seen or heard of this way of presenting a pistol. Quite foreign and Im having a hard time making sense of it. My understanding is that the presentation is accomplished in two vectors: 1. Front sight to eye box. 2. Front sight to target. Kind of like an up and out presentation.

Ive always presented my handgun directly out to extension-- closer to a straight line from holster to full extension. Logically this avenue makes more sense to me. A straight line is the shortest distance and therefore theoretically faster. As you say though, one must be much more practiced to consistently put everything in a alignment when taking this approach.

Im curious, why do you say the press out works very well for DA/SA Pistols and probably evolved from the use of those weapon systems?

[FireHouse1911]

Agreed. Very helpful to me as well.



There is a gentleman who owns SOB Tactical who teaches what I think you are talking about here. I had never seen or heard of this way of presenting a pistol. Quite foreign and Im having a hard time making sense of it. My understanding is that the presentation is accomplished in two vectors: 1. Front sight to eye box. 2. Front sight to target. Kind of like an up and out presentation.

Ive always presented my handgun directly out to extension-- closer to a straight line from holster to full extension. Logically this avenue makes more sense to me. A straight line is the shortest distance and therefore theoretically faster. As you say though, one must be much more practiced to consistently put everything in a alignment when taking this approach.

Im curious, why do you say the press out works very well for DA/SA Pistols and probably evolved from the use of those weapon systems?

Nevermind gentlemen. I found the thread https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4446-Press-Out-Good-or-Bad/page3 that answered my question.