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View Full Version : How long did it take for RDS to be faster?



RancidSumo
08-13-2020, 11:51 PM
For those of you with a lot of time behind a slide mounted red dot, how long did it take before you started seeing serious improvement/increases in speed over irons?

Recognizing that everyone is different, I'm starting to waiver on the whole concept due to, what feels to me like, very slow progress. I've had a RMR G19 for several months and have put a little over 1000 rounds through it along with a fair amount of dry practice. Starting to get a bit discouraging to see how much faster I still shoot irons with a big orange front sight. I definitely see the advantage in long-distance shooting - I can put shots on steel out at 50-100 yards in a way I know I could never match with irons - but inside 10 yards my first shot is so slow. Inside 5 I have to make myself find the dot because I start getting annoyed with missing it and just rely on all the other mechanics to put the first shot in the 0 blind.

I know what I really need is some professional training, and I am looking to get it as soon as I can, but the experiences of the group and any tips/drills/videos you all have would be appreciated in the meantime.

beenalongtime
08-13-2020, 11:58 PM
Interested in the reply's as well as another question.....

For those that use them, is there a range/distance, that you draw and use the co sights, quicker?

And thanks!

Paul D
08-14-2020, 12:31 AM
I had to go to the RDS due to a vision problem. I just couldn't accommodate anymore. I first had to learn to focus on the target and anticipate the dot. Second, I really had to practice pressing out the dot to the target. I can't see both the front sight and that target the same time. It took about 2000 rounds and dry practice at home. Now and I am way faster and a lot more accurate 7 yds and beyond. The RDS has actually help me shoot irons better. Instead of letting the target blur and having a sharp focus on the front sight while pressing out; now I just look at the target and the front sight just magically pops into view at the end of my press out. Now my only problem is that I don't practice enough and I'm too fat to be nimble.

DaBigBR
08-14-2020, 03:22 AM
I got my first RDS handgun in 2014 or 2015 and used it at the range sporadically as more of a "toy" than anything for the first several years. No idea on the round counts, but nothing more than a few thousand a year. Last Spring (2019), I went to a one day RDS class with Steve Fisher. It got me going on dots a little bit harder. I spent a lot of 2019 shooting 2011s (new platform for me) with optics. This Spring (2020), I did the Sage Dynamics three day RDS instructor class. I have shot probably 90% RDS this year. I am to the point where I am faster with the RDS at all distances. It has taken a lot of rounds and a lot of dry time to get there. I don't have a number of rounds or an amount of time for you because I don't keep track of rounds like some do and I did not fully dive in to RDS pistols until last year.

I think that the Sage class raised the question of how long it took you to learn to shoot well with irons (years for many of us) and how much time we had into dots (months for most of us). It begs the question of why you expect the skills and performance to develop that quickly. My thought for those wanting to really get proficient is to dive into it. Shoot it a lot. Stop shooting irons. Use objective measures to figure out performance. That means taking ten reps of a draw and fire or a bill drill or whatever and figuring out your average every once in a while. Be objective about it.

The other thing that I think a lot of us notice is that refining the draw with an RDS translates very well to irons. I have seen pretty noticeably improvements in initial sight alignment off of the draw with irons after working with an RDS so much because the RDS demands a precision alignment of the lens and the eye. This translates to the irons very well. The lack of precision in the irons means that the inverse is not really true. You can see both sights on the draw so when you are "off", it is easy to work them back into alignment. With the RDS, no dot usually means you have to go looking for it relatively blindly (see tip below).

Two tips for the RDS that are stolen directly from Aaron Cowan:

1) Align the back of the slide (back plate, hammer, whatever) with your nose. Your brain knows where your hands are and where your eyes are. This will give you the dot. This works in every position. Back plate to nose, back plate to nose, back plate to nose. It works.

2) If you can't find the dot, consider where you were moving the gun. If you're a right handed shooter and you are drawing, the dot is probably high and left. We tend to overshoot the mark more than anything else. So when you're training and don't have the dot, think about which way you were moving the gun, and start your search there.

GJM
08-14-2020, 07:34 AM
The key to speed is learning to shoot the streak of the dot and not just a steady dot.

Lon
08-14-2020, 08:33 AM
I know what I really need is some professional training......

Doing this will make your dot experience much better.

I just finished Modern Samurai Project’s RDS instructor class. The answer to your question was demonstrated many times in class - Speed and accuracy come from efficiency which comes from proper technique.

Archer1440
08-14-2020, 12:00 PM
It took me about six months and several thousand dry press presentations in 2017 to get “as fast” as irons under time pressure inside 10 yards. Part of that was replacing some habits built over nearly 30 years of handgunning.

Past 10 yards, my accuracy and times were better pretty early on, but getting that sub-1-second from the holster 3-yard head shot *every time* with an honest ”saw the dot and pressed” took some real effort.

I’m glad I did it, and also found that it didn’t degrade my iron sight work inside 10 yards, either. I can go back and forth with ease. But it did take a lot of work.

My shooting at anything past 25 yards is far superior with the RDS, and was that way from day one.

GJM
08-14-2020, 12:08 PM
We may be talking about different things. Some may be thinking “fast” means to shot one on target. That can be solved with dry fire. I am talking about speed on successive shots, and that has to do with how you use the dot. Slowest is a stopped, steady dot. In between is a round dot moving within the scoring zone. Fastest is shooting a streak of dot as it enters the scoring zone.

Darth_Uno
08-14-2020, 12:24 PM
It took me about six months and several thousand dry press presentations in 2017 to get “as fast” as irons under time pressure inside 10 yards. Part of that was replacing some habits built over nearly 30 years of handgunning.

Past 10 yards, my accuracy and times were better pretty early on, but getting that sub-1-second from the holster 3-yard head shot *every time* with an honest ”saw the dot and pressed” took some real effort.

I’m glad I did it, and also found that it didn’t degrade my iron sight work inside 10 yards, either. I can go back and forth with ease. But it did take a lot of work.

My shooting at anything past 25 yards is far superior with the RDS, and was that way from day one.

That’s my experience. It just took a ton of dry fire presentations to find the dot quickly.

I saw an immediate and significant improvement in accuracy past 10 yds or so. Also was noticeably faster transitioning to multiple targets at 10+ yds. Once I had the dot I didn’t lose it - it just took a lot of reps to get to where I could obtain it immediately.

It helps to think of your sights like a runway of sorts. Draw and get a normal sight picture, and the dot should just be there. Then focus past the sights, and just use the dot. Do this enough and your brain will figure out what to look for and start skipping the irons and going straight to the dot. An actual instructor can probably explain this much better.

David S.
08-14-2020, 09:13 PM
The dot requires a significantly more refined presentation and technique than iron sights, which will come with a bunch of dry practice.

Check out the Modern Samurai Project youtube video series (https://www.youtube.com/user/jedlinski)from a couple years ago on RDS technique. It'll get you started in the right direction

------------------
Modern Samurai Project has a RDS class coming up in San Antonio in October. It's currently showing sold out, but with current events as they are, you might contact them as it gets closer and see if anything opens up.

Greig Performance Shooting (https://www.greigshooting.com/store/p_1203233/red-dot-handgun-workshop-4hr-thunder-gun-range-conroe-tx-sept-26-2020-9am-1pm-) has a RDS workshop up in Conroe in late September. Doug has worked extensively with @KR Training and graduated from the SIG Sauer Academy RDS Instructor program. Not sure if he's worked with Jedi or not.

Disclosure: I have NO financial affiliation with any body listed above. I've personally trained with MSP a couple times. I know Karl Rehn through the Rangemaster circle, and Rehn endorsed Mr Greig.

David S.
08-14-2020, 09:22 PM
A brand new, developing series . . .


https://youtu.be/E6ZkD71-2tQ


https://youtu.be/fQ7hBCzAkNc

YVK
08-16-2020, 11:16 AM
I know what I really need is some professional training

This advice here has become like an axiom, but it is just a dogma. We've enough people on this site who has made it to a decent level, like A/M class, with the dots without taking one RDS specific class. I think it'll serve us well to be critical of that.

Another thing we should be critical of is the notion that RDS has got to become a total winner over the irons because we all have invested so much time and effort in it. It doesn't. It may become an overall winner in the totality of tasks, but if you're talking just a draw to a large target up close, I still think irons win. Especially when comparing with an RMR with its small window and thick frame.

How long it'll take you is an individual thing. I quit RDS on my first attempt some 10 years ago because it just wasn't happening. I would suggest to re-evaluate the attitude. When I started with the dot again, I wasn't looking to beat the irons on a draw. I was looking to get a reasonably OK draw and be happy with that for the time being, knowing that most other aspects of shooting were made easier with the RDS. That allowed me to stick with it long enough that the draw got decent. That said, I don't see Limited and Production guys struggle against the Open and CO guys [who use much more forgiving optics than RMRs] of similar skill levels when it comes to drawing to wide open targets.

karmapolice
08-16-2020, 12:33 PM
This advice here has become like an axiom, but it is just a dogma. We've enough people on this site who has made it to a decent level, like A/M class, with the dots without taking one RDS specific class. I think it'll serve us well to be critical of that."

- So, that is true in all shooting aspects RDS or not, does it help to have a good baseline from a legit instructor yes. However, there are a lot of people who take training classes all the time and still don't improve or are constantly chasing different methods vs. what works for them. A lot of RDS classes out there aren't really focusing on what needs to be focused on in my opinion, but that is my opinion.

The reality of shooting is the fundamentals are the fundamentals no matter sighting system, type of gun, etc. There are some difference such as planes of vision, target focus vs front sight focus (some iron shooters shoot target focus), but most of the difference are more maintenance specific to the gear or in some of the mechanics of running that particular firearm.

Grip, stance, trigger press, or the presentation of the gun from the holster, ready, or from a reload or malfunction clearance all don't care if its a Beretta with fiber sights, a Glock with an RMR, a CZ with an ACRO, an AR15 with a LPVO, or a GP100 with irons.

Where most people suffer on the speed aspect of an RDS equipped pistol is a mix of some focus issues, as GJM said wanting the dot to be still vs painting with the dot, a bad presentation of the gun.

With irons you can steer the pistol on the presentation by the front sight and then put it in the rear notch of the back sight. This is doable and people will cant the muzzle up from a number 3 position (compressed ready, whatever you want to call it). It still isn't a good method and having the gun level and riding it up to you eyes like an escalator is the best method, of course it also requires a good smooth stop of the pistol on final extension during the press out (i.e. coming into the station like a train vs. slamming the brakes). This presentation from 3 to 4 is the should be done the same from the holster, ready, and from a reload or malfunction clearance and can be but each are slightly different in ways.

1. Holster- here we are establishing the strong hand grip upon accessing the pistol, the support hand meets are the #3 and is shored up as we press out.

2. Ready- here the strong hand and support hand grip are already established and are shored up prior to a press out etc.

3. Reload/Malfunction clearance- here for most people we aren't just breaking the support hand grip (to access a magazine, tap rack etc.) but we are breaking the strong hand grip slightly as well to eject the magazine. Also, we are changing the orientation of the gun during this period as well.

So with that the often overlooked aspect is reload/malfunction clearance and when people do focus on it they focus on the aspect of getting the mechanics of the magazine exchange or the malfunction clearance but stop there and don’t really talk about the requisition of grip and then presentation to the target (some instructors do).

They are all equally important and more so with a dot as this is where most people transition suffer. Outside of the draw and ready position its often unworked or talked about in some specific RDS classes. Again this isn’t even just an RDS issue its an all guns issue, hence the whole the first shot is the hardest thing.




“Another thing we should be critical of is the notion that RDS has got to become a total winner over the irons because we all have invested so much time and effort in it. It doesn't. It may become an overall winner in the totality of tasks, but if you're talking just a draw to a large target up close,”


So I think where most people struggle with the fast draw to a large target up close is what GJM hit on and wanting a perfectly still dot because the perceived motion of the dot on a RDS is way more than with irons. The reality is the movement is the same it just the shooter is able to perceive it better with a RDS.

This isn’t an equipment issue but a mental issues, and can be overcome with proper practice and understanding. My draw or ready time to a large A zone at 3 yards is not any slower with a RDS at all.

Going back the seek training thing, again very important for laying a good foundation, continued learning etc, but one must put in the practice to solidify it.

So a total winner not but I’m sure most people felt the same about RDS on carbines and it is now the standard base level vs irons. Other sighting options of carbines are not the standards but have advantages etc. There are people who will tell you that you can’t be as fast with an LPVO as a RDS on a carbine, which is also false. It requires understanding the nuance of that sighting system in regards to its use on that firearm.

One of the best things is to have a good training partner or group and amazingly enough structure your practice which is the best method for any activity, sport, etc. you wish to improve you skill in.

GJM
08-16-2020, 12:59 PM
I learned more about shooting a red dot fast from Ben Stoeger in one competition class, than I have combined from every other class I have taken, everything else I have watched or read, and certainly everything I have written about dot shooting.

YVK
08-16-2020, 01:56 PM
- So, that is true in all shooting aspects RDS or not, does it help to have a good baseline from a legit instructor yes...



It does. I do have my own opinion, or even a bias, on the instructor cadre out there, which is the basis of my previous statement, but perhaps it is best to stop here.







....So I think where most people struggle with the fast draw to a large target up close is what GJM hit on and wanting a perfectly still dot because the perceived motion of the dot on a RDS is way more than with irons.

What I am seeing is something else. Irons allow you just to throw the gun out on a close target and dot doesn't. Whether draw or transitions, people usually use fairly quick, abrupt and powerful movements to present or move a gun on close targets. The sights, whether dot or irons, get misaligned but that still allows for decent hits, except you always see the irons over that A zone or whatever, and the dot you lose. In addition, the beam projects into a visually smaller dot on a close target.

Archer1440
08-16-2020, 11:02 PM
In addition, the beam projects into a visually smaller dot on a close target.

What? Are you confusing an RDS with a laser?

GearFondler
08-16-2020, 11:18 PM
What? Are you confusing an RDS with a laser?I believe he is referring to the visual effect of target distance, as in, the further away the target the more it is obscured by the dot (so conversely it looks smaller up close?)
But I don't know how that translates to slower speed up close... It's not something I've ever perceived.

Archer1440
08-16-2020, 11:27 PM
I believe he is referring to the visual effect of target distance, as in, the further away the target the more it is obscured by the dot (so conversely it looks smaller up close?)
But I don't know how that translates to slower speed up close... It's not something I've ever perceived.

Nonsense. If you’re target focused, and have normal vision, there’s no apparent change to the dot at any distance. Especially if you’re “painting with the dot” rather than treating it like a Palma sight.

YVK
08-16-2020, 11:35 PM
What? Are you confusing an RDS with a laser?

I can't begin to tell you how much shit I confuse in my life. GJM has given up on keeping me straight.
What did I do wrong this time, used "projects" for something that doesn't leave the glass, or described visual perceptions incorrectly?

GearFondler
08-16-2020, 11:36 PM
Nonsense. If you’re target focused, and have normal vision, there’s no apparent change to the dot at any distance. Especially if you’re “painting with the dot” rather than treating it like a Palma sight.The dot doesn't change, the target does... It gets smaller so more of it is hidden by the dot the further away it is.
Look, I'm just guessing at what YVK meant... I'll leave it to him to follow up.

YVK
08-16-2020, 11:44 PM
I believe he is referring to the visual effect of target distance, as in, the further away the target the more it is obscured by the dot (so conversely it looks smaller up close?)
But I don't know how that translates to slower speed up close... It's not something I've ever perceived.

Bingo! Thank you, bud.

I have my SRO aimed at a paster at about 2 steps distance as I type this. All 5 MOA of it is well within that paster. Looks ti-ny.
Now, I have just executed a near damn perfect 90 degrees support hand only dry fire transition and I am aiming at a spot 15 yards away. That spot is a 2.5 inch white circle, and same dot almost fills it in. Certainly fully covers two pasters next to it.

The number of times I shot a hoser target and thought "shit, this dot is smaaall, I wish it popped more" is substantial. But that's just me. Although one of our local M class dudes got a 10 MOA dot just for that reason.

Gio
08-17-2020, 02:36 PM
When I picked up an RDS equipped G34, I was immediately faster than irons with 0 transition time at all distances and target difficulties. As I have spent more time on it, I have been able to push it to an even faster level, especially on distant targets and tight partials as I've learned just how much I can get away with. The real key to transitioning to an RDS comes down to three key things:

1. Having a developed and effective index so that the gun/RDS/sights goes to where you're looking without having to make minute adjustments.
2. Truly understanding how to see what you need to see and not see what you don't need to see. This one is deep, and I think it is where most people get hung up.
3. Being completely comfortable shooting target focus and not staring at the dot.

I think having a strong grasp of these on irons before even picking up an RDS contributed to a seamless transition.

From what I can see, all RDS classes really focus on the first two. Tons of reps of draws to the point where your index improves combined with learning to shoot the red streak (at a basic level) on close targets rather than wait for the dot to stop. I think only the more advanced instructors spend much time or can even diagnose number 3 though.

Darth_Uno
08-17-2020, 05:19 PM
Another thing we should be critical of is the notion that RDS has got to become a total winner over the irons because we all have invested so much time and effort in it. It doesn't. It may become an overall winner in the totality of tasks, but if you're talking just a draw to a large target up close, I still think irons win. Especially when comparing with an RMR with its small window and thick frame.


Yes.^ If you want to shoot a FAST or Miami Vice drill, RMR's won't really help you at all that fast and that close. But, it shouldn't really slow you down either. That's been my own experience.

I used to say that any serious weapon should have an optic. I've backed off of that, and just say there's no reason not to have an optic.

YVK
08-17-2020, 07:35 PM
I guess this depends on a skill level but I've found that 3x5 card at 7 during the FAST is a small enough target where I already start benefiting from the dot.

Clay1
08-17-2020, 08:54 PM
I just took a couple of hours in a Modern Samurai Project class. Get some real training, it's very much worth the effort and the money.

karmapolice
08-18-2020, 07:59 AM
I guess this depends on a skill level but I've found that 3x5 card at 7 during the FAST is a small enough target where I already start benefiting from the dot.

The RDS helps in that arena to me as well, same as draws to an A Zone at 25 yards or the credit card at varying distances. I rarely shoot the FAST but ran it the other day three times with an average of a 1.40 draw to the 3x5 from an ALS holster. I think the issue you are having can be worked through, if I was able to I'd spend some range time with you.

karmapolice
08-18-2020, 12:24 PM
I guess this depends on a skill level but I've found that 3x5 card at 7 during the FAST is a small enough target where I already start benefiting from the dot.


What I more meant was it would be cool to spend time on the range and shot with you to see, not that I can just fix it lol. Also for the FAST overall time was 4.77 clean on the run I remember. I could shot the heads faster but that was shooting for 100% accuracy.

YVK
08-18-2020, 01:35 PM
What I more meant was it would be cool to spend time on the range and shot with you to see, not that I can just fix it lol.

I always welcome people fixing stuff in my shooting so that's all good.