Interpreting the trigger finger rule.

[SouthNarc]

Some good discussion in this thread before it got closed http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4393-To-Press-out-or-not-Or-something-else/page2

...and some remarks that caught my eye regarding how the trigger finger safety rule is interpreted.

The trigger finger rule I personally teach as third in order of importance after loaded guns, and muzzle sweeping.

The way I specifically phrase the rule follows:

Keep your finger in a hard register until the shooting cycle is initiated

So what does that mean?

Simply this. I think teaching from the perspective of a defined positive versus a vague negative is a better way of defining the trigger finger's placement. Usually when I do my safety brief on Saturday before the live fire portion of ECQC, I ask people their intepretation of the classic safety rules. The answers usually are some variation of "fingers off sights on". So for the vast majority of my coursework where there may indeed be coarse visual referencing of the gun, we're still not on sights. So the classic wording of the rule doesn't really apply for what I teach. Everyone seems to understand "shooting cycle" as pressing through to ignition, so that's usually no problem for new ECQC-ers.

The second thing I do is hold a Sim gun and place my index finger in the ejection port and ask everyone "Is my finger off the trigger?" They nod. I move my finger to the slide stop/disassembly lever and ask again "Is it off?" More nods. I then move it to the frame and ask again and they nod and start to understand......there are a whole bunch of "offs".

So I use the language hard register to describe the idea of a single repeatable area of the pistol that one's finger stays on or in until the shooting cycle is initiated.

The word register is nothing new as I know that alot of guys have been using it. I like adding the adjective hard because it should be some place on the gun that you can REALLY feel.

I think with more and more people adding doodads and widgets to guns that have rocker and tape switches, that interpreting the rule this way is really important.

Just my take.

[BaiHu]

I think you make a really good point here. I think the 'finger off the trigger' is an NRA thing and they really emphasize in their class that it isn't the way I just presented it, but rather "ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot." However, you could have your finger in the trigger guard and technically be 'off trigger' and I've seen people, who are new to shooting, in classes not understand why an instructor is getting so heated with them when their finger is off the trigger, but in the trigger guard.

As we had this discussion at ECQC, language is incredibly important, b/c it has a very specific meaning and sometimes brevity or maxims can lose the focus of what is truly intended.

In addition, I'm a pain in the a*&, so I don't understand the point of having the word 'always' and 'keep' right next to each other and then give an 'exemption'. I especially like what you have to say here:

" I think teaching from the perspective of a defined positive versus a vague negative is a better way of defining the trigger finger's placement."

[Lomshek]

I've seen people, who are new to shooting, in classes not understand why an instructor is getting so heated with them when their finger is off the trigger, but in the trigger guard.


Great subject Southnarc and what you detail is exactly what I teach newbies. Like BaiHu says most folks think if they are not physically touching the trigger they have their finger "off the trigger".

I always help a shooter find a physical reference point on their gun (slide stop, disassembly lever, mold line, etc) to index thier finger on when not making loud noises. IME when the whole concept of a reflexive flinch triggering the gun is explained most folks understand the importance of the finger locked on the frame completely off the trigger and trigger guard.

[NickA]

Good stuff, thanks for writing it up. That's very similar to how the Farnam's taught it- high register is the only place for your finger to be if you're not shooting. Never realized the subtle but important difference until now.
Another key thing they taught, especially with new shooters- there is only one way you should hold a gun- with the full master grip. It's downright scary how some people will hold a loaded gun.

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[GOP]

I use to be real serious about "trigger finger along the side of the gun", now my trigger finger runs a "hard register" along the underside of the frame until it touches the outside trigger guard. I find this makes my shot time .05-.10 faster and is still following the safety rules.

[rsa-otc]

SouthNarc;

In your experience how low is to low on the frame. At what point does the tension in the trigger finger cause it to slip from it's resting point into the trigger guard and possibly onto the trigger. This tension could either be from inter-limb interaction or loss of balance. I've always had my students shy away from the trigger guard area or the edge of the frame just above the trigger for this reason. Is it a real life problem?

My personal hard register is flat along the frame above the trigger with either a revolver or an auto, this way if my finger tensions the tip is forced into the frame and can't slip into the trigger.

[SouthNarc]

SouthNarc;

In your experience how low is to low on the frame. At what point does the tension in the trigger finger cause it to slip from it's resting point into the trigger guard and possibly onto the trigger. This tension could either be from inter-limb interaction or loss of balance. I've always had my students shy away from the trigger guard area or the edge of the frame just above the trigger for this reason. Is it a real life problem?

My personal hard register is flat along the frame above the trigger with either a revolver or an auto, this way if my finger tensions the tip is forced into the frame and can't slip into the trigger.

Really good question. I personally like and recommend the ejection port. Usually the remark from folks first trying it out is "DAMN....that's uncomfortable!". Yup....as it should be. Think about it; do we really want our trigger finger comfortable? Personally I like knowing EXACTLY where it is all the time. I'm comfortable sitting on the couch in my boxers fiddling with my balls, but I don't fight like that.

I think having it uncomfortable and registering that discomfort consciously is important feedback allowing the shooter to always have digital sensation. As to how problematic fingers creeping into the triggerguard are well......I've seen some excellent shooters from this forum unconsciously trigger check both in AMIS when breaking concealment where they thought there was going to be gunplay, and in ECQC during role play when holding someone at gunpoint.

Before I retired I ran my entire agency through annual FATS training for four years in a row and noticed that people I had academy trained with an ejection port hard register or my old SWAT team who used the same position, had a SIGNIFICANTLY lower tendency to unconsciously trigger check.

So I really don't have an answer rsa-otc other than I believe that the further away from the trigger and the more uncomfortable it is (within reason) the better. Claude Werner has run an ejection port hard register (E.P. H/R???? Ha...another acronym!! Goody!!) position on a timer and has not noted ANY significant uptick in time.

[EVP]

Great thread and very enlightening!


On another note, an epic quote that had my side splitting. Can I use this?


Think about it; do we really want our trigger finger comfortable? Personally I like knowing EXACTLY where it is all the time. I'm comfortable sitting on the couch in my boxers fiddling with my balls, but I don't fight like that.

[NickA]

"Ejection port hard register".
Sounds like something..... else. Something we shouldn't be talking about, and that maybe there's a pill for.

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[SouthNarc]

Great thread and very enlightening!


On another note, an epic quote that had my side splitting. Can I use this?


Do it to it!

[rsa-otc]

I've seen some excellent shooters ..... unconsciously trigger check both in AMIS when breaking concealment where they thought there was going to be gunplay, and in ECQC during role play when holding someone at gunpoint.

Before I retired I ran my entire agency through annual FATS training for four years in a row and noticed that people I had academy trained with an ejection port hard register or my old SWAT team who used the same position, had a SIGNIFICANTLY lower tendency to unconsciously trigger check.

It's something I harp on continuously with my students. I can say with some fatherly pride that my daughter shot her first IDPA match last month and she was complimented on her trigger finger discipline. Now if I can get all my students to be as disciplined, but I don't get to train them from birth. :p

No actually my concern/question doesn't so much surround cheating the trigger in anticipation, but rather if they get physical and one of the involuntary reactions happen, such as loss of balance, startle response or inter-limb interaction, things that you would see in ECQC, is there a position that is to low that allows the finger when tensed to slip off the hard register and onto the trigger. In all reality I think you've already answered my question, I'm just making sure I understand that we are talking the same thing
.

[Al T.]

In teaching older folks, I'm finding that telling them what to do (and why) is better received than what not to do.

I also understand that folks tend to (subconsciously) fail hear "no" or negative terms, so positive terms seem to work better.

[SouthNarc]

No actually my concern/question doesn't so much surround cheating the trigger in anticipation, but rather if they get physical and one of the involuntary reactions happen, such as loss of balance, startle response or inter-limb interaction, things that you would see in ECQC, is there a position that is to low that allows the finger when tensed to slip off the hard register and onto the trigger. In all reality I think you've already answered my question, I'm just making sure I understand that we are talking the same thing
.

Ah I got you now! Just anecdotally it seems that when the trigger finger touches the trigger guard there seems to be a higher incidence of oopsies. Actually now that I'm thinking about it, the most striking example of this occuring was with a student after the two on one who I was debriefing. He was actually holding the Sim gun and starting to recount the evolution. I was just getting ready to tell him to holster when he popped a sims round in the dirt. I had just looked down at the gun and actually saw his trigger finger touching the guard as he was excitedly recounting how he had just fucked up. I looked up to say "Holster up dude" when he ND'd. It was only a sim round....but it was still and ND.

[ToddG]

When the finger is simply touching the front of the trigger guard, it's still aligned similarly to being on the trigger. The exact same muscular contraction will result in a trigger press. When the finger is above the trigger guard that problem is far less likely to occur.

[Prdator]

I had just looked down at the gun and actually saw his trigger finger touching the guard as he was excitedly recounting how he had just fucked up. I looked up to say "Holster up dude" when he ND'd. It was only a sim round....but it was still and ND.

Something I've been thinking about and mulling over some. At what level of stress have you mastered having your finger in Register? and How do you know that. It would seem that for the student in the quote above he had not mastered that skill under that stress load, Just like I had not mastered the hard register wile searching for a guy that I KNEW was in that room and fixing to shoot my ass with Air-Soft in AIMS. You busted my ass for it ( rightly so) and I fixed it!!, but it was Shocking to me!!! I had Justified it in my mind ( Im fixing to have to shoot this guy, its only airsoft, the gun is pointed in a other than me direction Blah blah) Ive done a lot of gun handling and been in some VERY stressful training Evo's and not had an issue with keeping my finger in register during them ( that I know of) but that scenario in AIMS had me beyond my limit.

So I don't think you can take the Finger in Register to lightly at all during training,

[BaiHu]

.... I'm comfortable sitting on the couch in my boxers fiddling with my balls, but I don't fight like that....

I cracked up so loudly and so badly, that everyone around the common area looked at me. I couldn't isolate this sentence and comment on this when it was first typed, b/c I had to teach a class, but I just wanted to say that if I never learn anything more from Craig other than ECQC and the statement above, I will have an awesome fighting philosophy to live by.

[Yute]

Really good question. I personally like and recommend the ejection port. Usually the remark from folks first trying it out is "DAMN....that's uncomfortable!". Yup....as it should be.

Southnarc,

Great explanation. As always, your writings make me reconsider everything I do. Out of curiosity where is your finger "landmark" on a carbine?

[archangel]

I think Southnarc articulated it much better than I ever have, but I've always espoused the same concept; Don't just keep your finger off the trigger, keep it ON something else.



As we had this discussion at ECQC, language is incredibly important, b/c it has a very specific meaning and sometimes brevity or maxims can lose the focus of what is truly intended.

Totally agree with this also. I've always hated... HATED... Cooper's first rule being "All guns are always loaded." That's not a rule. It doesn't tell me what to do, how to do it, or when to do it. It's just a statement, and an inherently false one at that.

[Jay Cunningham]

Some good discussion in this thread before it got closed http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4393-To-Press-out-or-not-Or-something-else/page2

...and some remarks that caught my eye regarding how the trigger finger safety rule is interpreted.

The trigger finger rule I personally teach as third in order of importance after loaded guns, and muzzle sweeping.

The way I specifically phrase the rule follows:

Keep your finger in a hard register until the shooting cycle is initiated

So what does that mean?

Simply this. I think teaching from the perspective of a defined positive versus a vague negative is a better way of defining the trigger finger's placement. Usually when I do my safety brief on Saturday before the live fire portion of ECQC, I ask people their intepretation of the classic safety rules. The answers usually are some variation of "fingers off sights on". So for the vast majority of my coursework where there may indeed be coarse visual referencing of the gun, we're still not on sights. So the classic wording of the rule doesn't really apply for what I teach. Everyone seems to understand "shooting cycle" as pressing through to ignition, so that's usually no problem for new ECQC-ers.

The second thing I do is hold a Sim gun and place my index finger in the ejection port and ask everyone "Is my finger off the trigger?" They nod. I move my finger to the slide stop/disassembly lever and ask again "Is it off?" More nods. I then move it to the frame and ask again and they nod and start to understand......there are a whole bunch of "offs".

So I use the language hard register to describe the idea of a single repeatable area of the pistol that one's finger stays on or in until the shooting cycle is initiated.

The word register is nothing new as I know that alot of guys have been using it. I like adding the adjective hard because it should be some place on the gun that you can REALLY feel.

I think with more and more people adding doodads and widgets to guns that have rocker and tape switches, that interpreting the rule this way is really important.

Just my take.

Without trying to come off as your jock-sniffer, I pretty much agree with and teach what you posted above. I've caught a lot of flak for stating that I think some of the traditional wording of Cooper's Four Rules can be ambiguous - but hey, I'm used to catching flak. ;)

[Jay Cunningham]

I think Southnarc articulated it much better than I ever have, but I've always espoused the same concept; Don't just keep your finger off the trigger, keep it ON something else.




Totally agree with this also. I've always hated... HATED... Cooper's first rule being "All guns are always loaded." That's not a rule. It doesn't tell me what to do, how to do it, or when to do it. It's just a statement, and an inherently false one at that.

Agree. Pretty much Rules 2 - 4 are you "treating the gun as if it's loaded" if you think about it for a second. I usually just phrase Rule #1 as:

"Assume all guns are loaded. Verify the condition of the gun."

[Chuck Haggard]

Good discussion.


OK, just tried with my G17, where does a lefty make a hard register on a Grock?

[Mr_White]

Good discussion.


OK, just tried with my G17, where does a lefty make a hard register on a Grock?

I've never liked the ejection port myself, but have always applied the same concept to the shelf that is formed where the frame and the slide meet. To me, the essence is to have a specific place to put the finger, and to consciously press it there with some amount of force. That's a location that can be used for either right or left-handed folks.