Looking for electrical help---GFCI outlet tripped in kitchen

[Baldanders]

One of the GFCI outlets tripped in our kitchen tripped two days ago, making the dishwasher inoperable. Looking for guidance on tracking down the problem and fixing it.

My steps so far:

1) I disconnected the wiring to the washer (no other appliances on the circuit), turned the breaker back on and the outlet was able to be reset ---also replaced the outlet with a new one(I am simplifying my dingbat troubleshooting a bit here)

2) I flipped the breaker off, re-wired the washer, flipped the breaker back, outlet was still tripped, it finally reset on my third push of the reset button, then ran the dishwasher for 20 min, then the outlet tripped again

3) I repeated the steps I did before, again the outlet reset on the third try---but then my wife misheard my instructions and flipped the outside breaker again, and when she flipped it back, the outlet tripped again and would not reset.

Now, even with powerline to the washer disconnected and capped off, the outlet is still detecting a short and won't reset.

My next guess is there is a break in the powerline under the house causing a short. The line is shoved through the gap between the floor and the exterior wall without even a proper hole drilled.

I would like to have the input of someone who actually knows something before I start dicking around in the crawlspace under the house.


At least my internet is back after 2 days without so I can consult the hive. 😃

[Oldherkpilot]

Please confirm whether you replaced the GFCI outlet or another outlet downstream from the GFCI? If you haven't replaced the GFCI, I recommend doing that first. I have had to replace several for clients over the years. I'm not an electrician, just a handyman.

[Baldanders]

Please confirm whether you replaced the GFCI outlet or another outlet downstream from the GFCI? If you haven't replaced the GFCI, I recommend doing that first. I have had to replace several for clients over the years. I'm not an electrician, just a handyman.

I replaced the GFCI outlet that was tripped, and the new one is doing the same thing.

[AKDoug]

I replaced the GFCI outlet that was tripped, and the new one is doing the same thing. Is this GFCI solo on the circuit or are there other outlets wired into its circuit?

[Baldanders]

Is this GFCI solo on the circuit or are there other outlets wired into its circuit?

Two other outlets are on the same circuit, one with a switch for the overhead florescent above the sink. I took off the outlet covers and it looks like everything is connected, but hard to tell without pulling out the outlets. They are not GFCI outlets.

I am focused on the washer cord because disconnecting from the washer got the switch to reset (barely) twice before. If it is"leaking" current beneath the house, it would trip the outlet.

If the sloppy fool who did the wiring in our house had put the washer connection on it's own circuit as code requires, this wouldn't even be a possible problem. 🤬

I am tempted to just replace the outlet with a non-GFCI one, but I don't want to mask an issue that really needs to be addressed.

[awp_101]

IIRC from my days in the appliance repair world, GFCI outlets aren’t supposed to be used for appliances. It’s been a minute (like 10 years) since I got paid to work on them though...

[farscott]

The last time I did this I had to trace the wiring from the GFCI to the other outlets. I found we had a wiring issue, which caused the GFCI to trip. If the GFCI was not present, a fire was a strong possibility as there was a loose connection and charred insulation.

[Baldanders]

Also, nothing is plugged into any outlet in the circuit and the light switch is on "off."

[peterb]

IIRC from my days in the appliance repair world, GFCI outlets aren’t supposed to be used for appliances. It’s been a minute (like 10 years) since I got paid to work on them though...

Don't forget kitchen or wet bar areas. Per 210.8(A)(6), GFCI protection is required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles that serve kitchen countertop surfaces in a dwelling unit (Fig. 1 on page 54). GFCI protection is not required for receptacles serving appliances like dishwashers, or convenience receptacles that do not supply countertop surfaces. Receptacles installed within 6 ft of the outside edge of a wet bar sink must also be GFCI-protected [210.8(A)(7)]. However, GFCI protection is not required for receptacles not intended to serve wet bar countertop surfaces, such as refrigerators, ice makers, water heaters, or convenience receptacles that do not supply counter-top surfaces.

https://www.ecmweb.com/national-electrical-code/code-basics/article/20898894/nec-requirements-for-groundfault-circuit-interrupters-gfci

[Baldanders]

IIRC from my days in the appliance repair world, GFCI outlets aren’t supposed to be used for appliances. It’s been a minute (like 10 years) since I got paid to work on them though...

The outlet is on the same circuit as the dishwasher, but the dishwasher has it's own power cord. (As I said, not up to code, usually only an issue with older homes)Looks like I am about to go under the house to investigate.

[EricM]

Don't forget kitchen or wet bar areas. Per 210.8(A)(6), GFCI protection is required for all 15A and 20A, 125V receptacles that serve kitchen countertop surfaces in a dwelling unit (Fig. 1 on page 54). GFCI protection is not required for receptacles serving appliances like dishwashers, or convenience receptacles that do not supply countertop surfaces. Receptacles installed within 6 ft of the outside edge of a wet bar sink must also be GFCI-protected [210.8(A)(7)]. However, GFCI protection is not required for receptacles not intended to serve wet bar countertop surfaces, such as refrigerators, ice makers, water heaters, or convenience receptacles that do not supply counter-top surfaces.

https://www.ecmweb.com/national-electrical-code/code-basics/article/20898894/nec-requirements-for-groundfault-circuit-interrupters-gfci

I believe that article is outdated (2002); my understanding is current code (starting with 2014) requires GFCI protection for dishwashers.

As farscott indicated, other outlets connected to the Load side of a GFCI outlet are protected by the GFCI and thus issues there could cause it to trip. It might narrow things down to leave the other outlets disconnected and see if the problem persists.

[Baldanders]

I believe that article is outdated (2002); my understanding is current code (starting with 2014) requires GFCI protection for dishwashers.

As farscott indicated, other outlets connected to the Load side of a GFCI outlet are protected by the GFCI and thus issues there could cause it to trip. It might narrow things down to leave the other outlets disconnected and see if the problem persists.

I went under the house and I think I identified the power cord that runs to the dishwasher. I couldn't see any damage.

I am thinking about capping off all the outlets on the same circuit (all are within 6ft of the sink) if I can't find the issue otherwise. We really just need the dishwasher and the light above the sink.

[Darth_Uno]

If there's no additional outlets on the circuit, you can bypass the GFCI. Simply put all wires into the "line" terminals. This will allow the GFCI to function correctly where it's installed, but doesn't protect anything downstream. Which should be fine if the only item is the dishwasher - anything motor-driven should be on its own circuit, or at the very least not GFCI protected.

If you do have additional outlets on the circuit, and they're within 60" of the sink, you may just want to pay an electrician to come out and make sure everything is kosher. Local code says any outlet (not hard-wired appliance) within 60" of a water source (sink/faucet) must be GFCI protected, which I would strongly recommend sticking with that.

[Baldanders]

If there's no additional outlets on the circuit, you can bypass the GFCI. Simply put all wires into the "line" terminals. This will allow the GFCI to function correctly where it's installed, but doesn't protect anything downstream. Which should be fine if the only item is the dishwasher - anything motor-driven should be on its own circuit, or at the very least not GFCI protected.

If you do have additional outlets on the circuit, and they're within 60" of the sink, you may just want to pay an electrician to come out and make sure everything is kosher. Local code says any outlet (not hard-wired appliance) within 60" of a water source (sink/faucet) must be GFCI protected, which I would strongly recommend sticking with that.

Thanks buddy. There are 2 regular outlets "downstream," so I think eventually I will do as you suggested, then replace the downstream outlets with GFCI models as well.

But for now I'm capping off the first outlet and putting childproof plugs in the others. I have a lot of school shit I need to attend to, especially due the internet outage of the past few days.

[Wheeler]

Newer code requires GFCI protection on dishwasher outlets, that's regardless of whether there is an actual cord and plug assembly or it's hard wired. Typically the correct course of action is to run a dedicated, 20A circuit and install on a GFCI breaker. The newer dishwashers have different failure points than the older, electro mechanical styles.

Any outlet with 6' of a water source, such as a sink require GFCI protection. Code also requires an outlet every 2' of counter space and no more than two outlets per circuit. Obviously that's not the case with your situation. Bypassing the GFCI protection is not necessarily the best course of action. It's also prudent to note that if your dishwasher is tripping the new GFCI that can be indicative of an issue with the actual dishwasher and not the electrical system.

Do you have more than one GFCI outlet on that circuit? If so that will create all sorts of issues.

If you'd like, shoot me a PM and we can swap numbers, I might be able to talk you through troubleshooting.

[Baldanders]

Newer code requires GFCI protection on dishwasher outlets, that's regardless of whether there is an actual cord and plug assembly or it's hard wired. Typically the correct course of action is to run a dedicated, 20A circuit and install on a GFCI breaker. The newer dishwashers have different failure points than the older, electro mechanical styles.

Any outlet with 6' of a water source, such as a sink require GFCI protection. Code also requires an outlet every 2' of counter space and no more than two outlets per circuit. Obviously that's not the case with your situation. Bypassing the GFCI protection is not necessarily the best course of action. It's also prudent to note that if your dishwasher is tripping the new GFCI that can be indicative of an issue with the actual dishwasher and not the electrical system.

Do you have more than one GFCI outlet on that circuit? If so that will create all sorts of issues.

If you'd like, shoot me a PM and we can swap numbers, I might be able to talk you through troubleshooting.

Quite a bit of the wiring in this house ain't up to code. Put together by a Chapel Hill cop with family help, not sure how it passed the inspection during the purchase process. When we sell, we are going to have to spend a good chunk of change to get everything right.

There is only one GFCI outlet on that circuit--but two outlets downstream The washer is 1 month old, and it's own sensors tripped when it detected water underneath --had a leakage problem when I initially installed it, now corrected.

The house was built in 2002, but I'm pretty sure the way the DW is wired into a circuit with a bunch of outlets wasn't code at the time either.

After thinking about it, I think my medium term fix will be to cap off all outlets on the circuit aside from what I assume is the last one in the series, and replace that one with a GFCI outlet.

My theory is there is a "current leak" somewhere in the line running through the gap between wall and floor, but judging by what I saw under the house, replacing that is going to be a megabitch, and probably getting into my Dunning Kruger danger zone for wiring.

Thanks for the offer, I may take you up on it in the near future!

[Baldanders]

I've mentioned it before on PF, but I have to say I still am stunned when I think about my tech crew for theater lighting in high school experience where I was allowed to mess around with 440v wiring with no adult supervision from ages 14-16. Almost got killed cutting into a live line due to a mistake by a guy who was allowed to run the crew after me.

Dumb. Puttering around the house now is bad enough.

[JAD]

It’s just AC.

[UNK]

If I am understanding this correctly you have a GFCI followed by a switch/receptacle combo, two outlets and then a third outlet feeding the dishwasher?
I wouldnt move the GFCI from where its at. You could place it after the problem which may not be enough to trip the breaker.
I would pull the GFCI, just pull it out of the box no need to unwire yet (kill the breaker and verify no voltage present with a meter) and determine if there is one or two romex cables leaving the GFCI box. (One feed from circuit breaker entering the box so that would be a total of three cables)
I think you need to determine where the DW is being fed from and take it out of the circuit at that point
If there is two cables leaving determine with continuity meter which one goes to the DW.
If there is only one cable leaving then pull the other receptacles until you find the DW feed.
Disconnect the DW feed and see if the GFCI holds.
If it does hold then unplug the DW and reconnect the DW circuit. If it holds then the problem is in the DW.

Dont get locked in on the DW just yet. The problem could be anywhere in the circuit. The tripping could just be coincidental.

Ill also offer a phone call if you need some advice just PM me.