Grip, trigger control and trigger speed

[GJM]

The goal of practical shooting is to hit what you are aiming at, as fast as possible. Lately, I have been thinking about the relationship of grip to trigger control and trigger speed. It seems complicated, and likely different, depending on where you are in your development process.

In the beginning, we just want to hit what we aim at. As Rob Leatham demonstrates, if you have good trigger control, it doesn’t matter how you hold the pistol — it can be upside down with two fingers, and you can hit your target. Unfortunately, trigger control doesn’t come in the box with the pistol, and as shooters we are or should be working to improve and retain our trigger control, as long as we are serious about shooting. When our trigger control is less developed, it helps to grip the pistol firmly, so a less than perfect press has less chance of moving the pistol out of alignment with the target. This is especially so with a lightweight pistol with a relatively long and heavy trigger pull. I believe shooters can do pretty well, hitting what they are aiming at, if they have a very strong grip on the pistol. That may break down when they go to shoot with just one hand, and that might be a reasonable diagnostic test of pure trigger control.

The other advantage of a strong grip is recoil control. All things equal (meaning technique), the harder you hold the pistol, the less the pistol moves in recoil. As you grip the pistol harder and harder, though, it can become more difficult to move the trigger quickly. At that point, you need to try to understand how your grip is interrelated to your trigger control, trigger speed, and recoil control. The obvious way to measure this is points per second.

I got to the point where holding the pistol too hard became a major problem for me. I didn’t need that grip to help trigger control, and the tension impaired my ability to shoot fast splits. My pistol was very flat in recoil, but my splits were slower than they should be. The first thing I did was experiment shooting 25 yards groups with much less grip force, and I noticed no degradation there. Actually, what I did notice was it was easier to shoot tight groups quickly because there was less tension in my strong hand. Then I tried to assess how the gun moved in recoil. Not surprisingly, since there is generally no free lunch, the pistol moved more in recoil. What I was surprised to discover was while the pistol moved more, it also returned quicker, making it ready to shoot earlier. Finally, less tension, especially in my strong hand, made it easier to move the trigger quickly. An unintended benefit was it improved my draw, because I have so much less tension in my arms.

I am now at the point of doing those 10,000 repetitions, or what is required, to burn less grip tension into my subconscious. It might be worthwhile to think about your own grip and how you think that interacts with your trigger control and trigger speed.

[Mark D]

Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to articulate this point.

In a podcast with Mike Seeklander, Eric Grauffel said he also uses a more relaxed grip. If I recall, Graufell said his relaxed grip is more sustainable during very long practice sessions and/or matches. Here's the podcast if anyone is interested.
https://americanwarriorshow.libsyn.com/world-champion-a-candid-discussion-with-the-worlds-best-shooter

There appears to be much more to grip than just "squeeze it as hard as you can".

[GJM]

Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to articulate this point.

In a podcast with Mike Seeklander, Eric Grauffel said he also uses a more relaxed grip. If I recall, Graufell said his relaxed grip is more sustainable during very long practice sessions and/or matches. Here's the podcast if anyone is interested.
https://americanwarriorshow.libsyn.com/world-champion-a-candid-discussion-with-the-worlds-best-shooter

There appears to be much more to grip than just "squeeze it as hard as you can".

I agree that it isn’t “just squeeze as hard as you can.” Experimentation is warranted to figure out what is your optimal amount of grip to achieve maximum points per second.

[Eyesquared]

I think Clusterfrack made this point in another thread but in my view once you reach the point where the gun does not shift around inside your hands under recoil, and the hands don't separate, there's not much to be gained by gripping harder and harder. I also think there are a lot of little nuances that make this easier to achieve or harder to achieve depending on your grip strength. I don't have particularly strong forearms but if I get my hand placement right, I can achieve that surprisingly easily (without any pec squeezing, push-pulling, or arm torquing) vs when I was in the mindset that I should just crush the gun. Now I think the next logical step is to see how much strong hand pressure I can remove while still maintaining an effective grip.

[CCT125US]

Excellent. I continually work on accurate speed. One of my personal tests is my hit factor drill. Ran several reps today, and I can attest that being more relaxed and working the trigger properly is a good thing for me.

[Clusterfrack]

...shooters can do pretty well, hitting what they are aiming at, if they have a very strong grip on the pistol.

The other advantage of a strong grip is recoil control. All things equal (meaning technique), the harder you hold the pistol, the less the pistol moves in recoil.
...

...with much less grip force,... ...the pistol moved more, it also returned quicker, making it ready to shoot earlier.

Very interesting thread. I went along a similar path. If a shooter has a very weak grip, recoil control will be poor. However I now question whether a very strong grip has much to do with recoil control--if one can learn to manage wrist and arm tension separately from grip force. As well, we need to separately address passive recoil control, and actively returning the gun after recoil.

In the other thread, I wrote about:



1) Confusion between gripping hard and locking the wrist. It is not obvious that these can be done independently unless you work on it.

2) Confusion between gripping the gun hard and returning the gun after recoil. These are not the same thing, and aren't directly related unless the gun is slipping inside the grip, or the grip is coming apart.

3) Confusion between how everyone needs to grip guns, and how a particular gun fits one person's hand.

[Clusterfrack]

Right now, my training has been focused on doing everything (draws, transitions, movement, grip, returning the gun, etc.) with as much relaxation as possible, while maintaining just the necessary tension.

I’m starting to get good results, but it’s taken a long time. Here’s a draw-2 and 4 Aces:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200805/468ba0259c475dbdff06329add0d394d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200805/f65e2218a822f67ca9830ede54ba318f.jpg

[YVK]

I am now at the point of doing those 10,000 repetitions,


So, you'll be done by the end of this week, eh?



As I am halfway through a 22 oz bottle of my favorite 10% ABV beer, I find myself in a philosophical mood. I think everything is relative. What's harder? What's softer?

- Hey, Ben, how hard do you grip?

- Hard, but not that hard. Nothing like Vogel.

- Hey, Ben, can you squeeze my arm with your left hand like you'd hold a gun. K, thanks, you can let go. I can't generate that much force with my support hand at all.


That's the support hand talk, which is less controversial but we shouldn't exclude that the same applies to a strong hand pressure. I have lightened my strong side grip as well, but I try not to go by some specific perceived amount of force that I am applying. My current goal is to grip as hard as I can without causing two things:
- inability to move trigger finger freely
- printing left / low left on a target.

I may change my mind later. Maybe as soon as I finish that beer.

[spinmove_]

Grip is a funny thing because it’s so ridiculously subjective. We don’t yet have an objective way to really measure it, we have to do everything by feel. When we were new shooters we definitely needed to grip the pistol harder because we simply weren’t supporting the gun enough. As we figure stuff out, we become adept at gripping enough. What was “gripping hard” before is now simply “Tuesday’s dryfire session”. Cluster and GJM are totally right, there’s a point where gripping harder simply doesn’t do anything for you and begins to hinder you.

I’ve played with different grip pressures and it’s interesting. I’ve found that I typically WAY over grip with my strong hand. In relaxing just the strong hand it’s absolutely mind blowing to me how relaxed that hand can be while still getting good hits at speed. My support hand still needs to maintain pretty stout pressure, but not quite so much as I once thought.

This is where immobilizing your wrists becomes key. I say immobilizing instead of “locking” your wrists because, as humans, we can’t actually mechanically lock our joints like other animals can. This is where I’m at currently in figuring out how to do this in a consistent and repeatable manner. If I can figure out how to do this, it’ll be really interesting to see how much I can relax behind the gun.

Another step in this whole deal that I’ve heard other high level shooters talk about is implementing some sort of push-pull dynamic, but from a modern thumbs forward isosceles grip. Shooters like Eric Grauffel and Hwansik Kim. I’ve tried this before, but with not much success.

[spinmove_]

Then I tried to assess how the gun moved in recoil. Not surprisingly, since there is generally no free lunch, the pistol moved more in recoil. What I was surprised to discover was while the pistol moved more, it also returned quicker, making it ready to shoot earlier. Finally, less tension, especially in my strong hand, made it easier to move the trigger quickly. An unintended benefit was it improved my draw, because I have so much less tension in my arms.


So, like, how much more are you allowing the pistol to move now vs when you were keeping it flatter yet slower?

[GJM]

Grip is a funny thing because it’s so ridiculously subjective. We don’t yet have an objective way to really measure it, we have to do everything by feel. When we were new shooters we definitely needed to grip the pistol harder because we simply weren’t supporting the gun enough. As we figure stuff out, we become adept at gripping enough. What was “gripping hard” before is now simply “Tuesday’s dryfire session”. Cluster and GJM are totally right, there’s a point where gripping harder simply doesn’t do anything for you and begins to hinder you.

I’ve played with different grip pressures and it’s interesting. I’ve found that I typically WAY over grip with my strong hand. In relaxing just the strong hand it’s absolutely mind blowing to me how relaxed that hand can be while still getting good hits at speed. My support hand still needs to maintain pretty stout pressure, but not quite so much as I once thought.

This is where immobilizing your wrists becomes key. I say immobilizing instead of “locking” your wrists because, as humans, we can’t actually mechanically lock our joints like other animals can. This is where I’m at currently in figuring out how to do this in a consistent and repeatable manner. If I can figure out how to do this, it’ll be really interesting to see how much I can relax behind the gun.

Another step in this whole deal that I’ve heard other high level shooters talk about is implementing some sort of push-pull dynamic, but from a modern thumbs forward isosceles grip. Shooters like Eric Grauffel and Hwansik Kim. I’ve tried this before, but with not much success.

I think there is a very simple, albeit indirect way, of measuring grip force — vary grip force and see what the shot timer says.


So, like, how much more are you allowing the pistol to move now vs when you were keeping it flatter yet slower?

Beats me, muzzle movement is very subjective. I guess I could try to video before and after, but I am not sure to what end. Fastest, accurate splits is what I am after, and how much the muzzle rises seems almost irrelevant.

[spinmove_]

I think there is a very simple, albeit indirect way, of measuring grip force — vary grip force and see what the shot timer says.



Beats me, muzzle movement is very subjective. I guess I could try to video before and after, but I am not sure to what end. Fastest, accurate splits is what I am after, and how much the muzzle rises seems almost irrelevant.

Yeah, the shot timer is indeed King. And I agree that’s it’s not actually the level of muzzle rise/flip that I should be concerned with so much as the actual time and accuracy. The problem is that, because I’ve been chasing the ability to make the gun track flatter for so long that accepting less than what I’ve been striving for is difficult for me to accept. I know I know, cue the “just get over it, embrace the recoil, and trust the objective data”. Easier said than done. Especially during an ammo shortage.

Trying to figure some of this stuff out purely in dryfire between matches ain’t exactly easy. I might need to consider foregoing a match or two here and there so that I can get some legit practice in to figure it out.

[GJM]

Yeah, the shot timer is indeed King. And I agree that’s it’s not actually the level of muzzle rise/flip that I should be concerned with so much as the actual time and accuracy. The problem is that, because I’ve been chasing the ability to make the gun track flatter for so long that accepting less than what I’ve been striving for is difficult for me to accept. I know I know, cue the “just get over it, embrace the recoil, and trust the objective data”. Easier said than done. Especially during an ammo shortage.

Trying to figure some of this stuff out purely in dryfire between matches ain’t exactly easy. I might need to consider foregoing a match or two here and there so that I can get some legit practice in to figure it out.

Dry fire is awesome for so many things, but I think you need to live fire to figure this out. Once you sort it out, dry fire to burn it in, with frequent live fire to confirm that your dry fire and live fire agree.

[Clusterfrack]

“You never know when you’re going to have recoil, and I like to be prepared for that with recoil springs. Better safe than sorry.” —Ben Stoeger 7/2020 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/practical-shooting-after-dark-by-ben-stoeger/id641400652

I may have to put that in my signature line...


Yeah, the shot timer is indeed King. And I agree that’s it’s not actually the level of muzzle rise/flip that I should be concerned with so much as the actual time and accuracy. The problem is that, because I’ve been chasing the ability to make the gun track flatter for so long that accepting less than what I’ve been striving for is difficult for me to accept. I know I know, cue the “just get over it, embrace the recoil, and trust the objective data”. Easier said than done. Especially during an ammo shortage.

Trying to figure some of this stuff out purely in dryfire between matches ain’t exactly easy. I might need to consider foregoing a match or two here and there so that I can get some legit practice in to figure it out.

[Robinson]

I think that for new shooters they need to practice getting a really strong grip on the gun because it doesn't come naturally. It's important to get used to having not only a proper grip but also a strong grip on the gun in order to shoot consistently and recover from recoil. I know that if I start allowing my grip to relax during a shooting session it negatively affects my shots.

The nuances of grip and other elements of shooting technique are things that more advanced shooters like many of you guys here explore once solid technique and a level of shooting skill have been achieved. For people learning how to shoot and people more at my level, I think Mr. Seeklander's video on grip is an excellent example of the right thing to do.

[ER_STL]

GJM, I've come to appreciate a lot of your posts and I enjoy this thread. I'll say that since joining Ben Stoeger's site recently, I've come to realize that I agree with just about everything for which he advocates when it comes to shooting. His thoughts on grip, trigger control, recoil management, sights, etc are spot on as far as I can tell. I need to find a way to host him out my way for a class some time in the future.

[Clusterfrack]

Another step in this whole deal that I’ve heard other high level shooters talk about is implementing some sort of push-pull dynamic, but from a modern thumbs forward isosceles grip. Shooters like Eric Grauffel and Hwansik Kim. I’ve tried this before, but with not much success.

I don’t think Hwansik does this?

But in any case, I strongly dislike any technique that unbalances my arms, or adds unnecessary tension.

[45dotACP]

One thing I picked up from a class with Tim Herron was that my grip was incredibly inconsistent. That was seperate from how strong I was gripping the gun. Rather it was the way I built my grip.

Silly as it sounds, he showed me the whole "Judy chop" move and said "build your grip this way always. After a reload, after a draw, after you pick the gun up from the table. Every time the hands seperate"

Just that alone was enough to vastly improve my shooting. Better repeatability means a more consistent baseline. From that baseline, you build things like tracking your sights, which is the key to shooting accurately at speed.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[spinmove_]

I don’t think Hwansik does this?

But in any case, I strongly dislike any technique that unbalances my arms, or adds unnecessary tension.

He mentions in a grip technique video where he doesn’t exert side to side pressure with his support hand so much as pushes back into the front strap of the grip and add pressure with his fingers. His strong hand obviously is gripping front to back as well. IIRC he then goes to to describe it as a “push/pull” from the standpoint of the support hand pulling and maintaining the guns place in space with his strong hand as a push.

I’ll have to look around and see if I can find it again. I’m not part of PSTG right now, but I’m pretty sure it’s a video he put up there as well as made it available for purchase separately through vimeo or some other platform.

[Clusterfrack]

Yeah, I do remember that now.

I’m not doing that.

[rca90gsx]

IIRC it is a pull with the fingers only, no force of a push comes from either hand if that makes sense. Only the fingers pulling backtowards the palm. I think i remember them warning against any push or pulling with the arm muscles. But i could be wrong!


He mentions in a grip technique video where he doesn’t exert side to side pressure with his support hand so much as pushes back into the front strap of the grip and add pressure with his fingers. His strong hand obviously is gripping front to back as well. IIRC he then goes to to describe it as a “push/pull” from the standpoint of the support hand pulling and maintaining the guns place in space with his strong hand as a push.

I’ll have to look around and see if I can find it again. I’m not part of PSTG right now, but I’m pretty sure it’s a video he put up there as well as made it available for purchase separately through vimeo or some other platform.

[spinmove_]

IIRC it is a pull with the fingers only, no force of a push comes from either hand if that makes sense. Only the fingers pulling backtowards the palm. I think i remember them warning against any push or pulling with the arm muscles. But i could be wrong!

It was the video “Recoil Management Series”. I’ll have to go through and watch it again. The Humble Marksman also has an interesting video on recoil management that he put together using input and references from other top level shooters. That’s an interesting watch as well. It seems those dudes are doing similar things to what GJM is describing. Not crushing the gun, immobilizing joints as much as possible.

[RJ]

I am just here for the knowledge bombs. Lots to unpack for this D shooter.

This thread reminds me why I support pistol-forum as a Site Supporter. Thoughtful nuanced discussions like this on the technical aspects of shooting by respected members, are hugely beneficial to beginners like me.

I’ll go back to listening now.

[Archer1440]

Some of have been push-pulling and locking the wrists for a long, long time now. That has a name... Bieber? Heever? Jeever? Something like that. I can’t remember.

;)

[Eyesquared]

The way Hwansik is gripping is not really like anything anyone else is doing, and it's definitely not like the Weaver stance. You have both hands on the gun and that's about it for the similarities.

[UNM1136]

--if one can learn to manage wrist and arm tension separately from grip force. As well, we need to separately address passive recoil control, and actively returning the gun after recoil.


This has the little hamster wheels turning. Do you have drills or techniques or exercises to help learn this, or is it all experiential trial and error?

pat

[Clusterfrack]

This has the little hamster wheels turning. Do you have drills or techniques or exercises to help learn this, or is it all experiential trial and error?


High speed video from the side of the gun, while experimenting with what is required for a good grip is helpful. Figuring out what the feeling is when the wrists are properly tense is the next step. That took a while, but now I know what it feels like. Interestingly, fist pushups with a not-so-tight fist seem to help as well.

[Clusterfrack]

The way Hwansik is gripping is not really like anything anyone else is doing, and it's definitely not like the Weaver stance. You have both hands on the gun and that's about it for the similarities.

Typical Hwansik style, his PSTG video on grip outlined more than one way to grip the gun. I liked that he didn't push the front-to-back grip for everyone. It does NOT work for me with any gun I shoot, and I very much prefer a "box" grip.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The way Hwansik is gripping is not really like anything anyone else is doing, and it's definitely not like the Weaver stance. You have both hands on the gun and that's about it for the similarities.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it before on P-F, but during an instructor in-service with Mark Fricke, he asked us - "Show of hands....who here shoots Isocoles? Weaver? Some personally bastardized version of one or the other?"

[AGR416]

I wrote the following in a Facebook group I am a member of:


I want to offer up some thoughts on handgun recoil control, and my approach to it.

I see a lot of shooters advocate flaring your elbows, torquing wrists, involving the entire arm, shoulders and chest in order to manage recoil.

Personally, I manage handgun recoil with my hands, with most control being from the support hand. My firing hand has a firm grip, but not so much that I cannot isolate my trigger finger.

Too much tension in the firing hand can lead to pushing shots down due to sympathetic recoil anticipation, as well as trigger freeze.

I'm not sure that the effort required to involve almost the entire upper body produces such drastically different results with a handgun. The gun, with a proper grip, doesn't flip that much, and does not require a lot of movement to get back down on target.

You should just let the gun do it's thing in recoil, making sure that you maintain your grip throughout the string of fire.

Keep it simple I guess.

This comes after trying to analyze my shooting, using drills and tips I picked up from Ben's books and videos. I was way too often over-gripping with my firing hand, and under-gripping with my support hand.
I was also guilty of extreme post-ignition push, causing follow up shots to land low on target.

Here is a video of a recent Bill Drill, I shot it in 1,75 seconds with all A's:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tZYP_G7VLI

1st shot: 1.02
2nd: .17
3rd: .13
4th: .14
5th: .14
6th: .15

I don't really see the practicality of shooting splits fast as I do in that video, but I am pretty consistent shooting this drill clean in 1,8X from 7.

I shot three Bill Drills at the end of practice today (no video), and I shot a 1,85 clean, a 1,65 with 1C and a 1,59 with 3C (Classic IPSC with tapered A-zone).

From a practical shooting perspective, shooting sooner is better than shooting faster. On the last two strings today my draw was sub 0.9 seconds.

[jamautry]

I think this is where Ben Stoeger's double drill really shines. I have spent a lot of time recently experimenting with this and have learned a tremendous amount; especially how much tension I need in my strong hand (spoiler .... not nearly as much as I thought). I get my best results in grouping and splits with a "relaxed" strong hand and crushing the grip with my weak hand.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

[Clark Jackson]

...
1st shot: 1.02
2nd: .17
3rd: .13
4th: .14
5th: .14
6th: .15

I don't really see the practicality of shooting splits fast as I do in that video, but I am pretty consistent shooting this drill clean in 1,8X from 7.

From a practical shooting perspective, shooting sooner is better than shooting faster. On the last two strings today my draw was sub 0.9 seconds.

(*Bold emphasis above added by me.)

Great technical shooting. I wholeheartedly agree with your assertion concerning practical application of split times sought by high-performing technical shooters.