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Ben Stoeger
06-06-2012, 03:16 PM
This is an interesting article from Caleb:

http://gunnuts.net/2012/06/06/super-squad-protips-draw-your-gun/

I think we could get a conversation going about the advantages and disadvantages of various draw techniques.

JV_
06-06-2012, 03:21 PM
I think we could get a conversation going about the advantages and disadvantages of various draw techniques.
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2093-press-out-or-punch-out-AFHF-class-question

JeffJ
06-06-2012, 03:22 PM
I was actually planning on starting on tread on this after reading Caleb's post.

My question is "why not both?" Press out to low prob targets, index to higher prob targets. This assumes that you're willing to put in the time to learn both drawstrokes and put in the time to be able to utilize them both correctly.

Is the "draw to index" a competition only technique? If so, why?

ETA: Based on Caleb's article I drew a distinction between the "draw to index" approach that he described and a "punch out" - maybe I'm on crack but they seemed different

JHC
06-06-2012, 03:26 PM
During the '90's, while shooting mostly BHPs I didn't know it was a pressout but for speed I shot extensively where I was on the sights very early and generally broke the first shot BEFORE full extension and the 2nd at full extension and got great hits really fast. But with the decline of my close focus vision and advancing age I've tried in the past few years to return to that and found mostly frustration. The speed to pickup the sight and track it closer to my face just seems gone. So prepping the Glock trigger some but finishing with a punch out seems to describe how I employ the pistol fast now. I'm extremely pleased with the results in time and hits on the FAST and other such drills so I'm not particularly seeking another approach now.

BoomerShooter
06-06-2012, 03:31 PM
The press out is actually a far better technique - it allows you to press the gun out as you draw which in turn gives the the ability to control the angle of the barrel in relation to the target. Mathematically this allows you to have a higher percentage of fast target attainment vs other draws.

ToddG
06-06-2012, 03:39 PM
Caleb's article answers the question for me:


The index draw's utility for most people only works for high percentage shots: target is static, shooter is static, target is close, big, and unobstructed. That's 99% of the first shots fired from the holster in IPSC and IDPA.
Mastering a useful index draw takes time, reps, and ammo; that time and ammo could just as easily be spent on further improving my press-out.
The index draw puts the gun out in front of the body and below the sight line. That's fine for competition. It's not as good for any time you've got close threats or environmental limitations (like a steering wheel or wall) that prevent moving the gun like that. If you're also pressing the trigger before the gun is aligned between your eyes and the target, you're violating a fundamental safety rule.


I don't doubt for a moment that the index draw, practiced enough, can result in a faster first shot out of the gun. Based on all the "index draw shooters" I've seen try the F.A.S.T. in classes and at similar events, I'm convinced that it doesn't translate into consistent on-demand ability to make tough shots under stress. The number of people who'll actually put serious time and effort into both techniques is small. The number who'll call upon the best technique for a given target at a given instant during a dynamic event is even smaller.

The press out, like the fundamentals it incorporates such as sight alignment and trigger manipulation, can be as precise as necessary or as sloppy as allowable. But it's sort of like the aimed vs. point shooting debate, where aimed fire tends to improve one's point shooting while the opposite is not the case. Practicing a good press out means I can call upon it when needed and rush it when it's not. Someone whose practice is all about indexing an A-zone isn't going to "rise to the challenge" when life forces him to hit a small, moving target in low light.

Ben Stoeger
06-06-2012, 04:00 PM
Caleb's article answers the question for me:

[LIST=1]
The index draw's utility for most people only works for high percentage shots: target is static, shooter is static, target is close, big, and unobstructed. That's 99% of the first shots fired from the holster in IPSC and IDPA.


That is absolutely false. It is generally to a shooter’s advantage in competition to get moving while drawing if the scenario allows it. Also, there are many draws onto more difficult targets at competitive events. IPSC is not really as static as many people believe it is.

ford.304
06-06-2012, 04:08 PM
@ToddG - are there good studies on which is more likely to be important in a self defense situation - the extra tenths of a second on a higher percentage target (ie, a torso hit at 15 yards) or being able to hit a lower percentage shot (target behind cover/hostage situation) from the holster at speed? There's obviously a tradeoff being made, and I'm curious to see the data that raises one above the other.

I will accept if you just say it is a philosophical difference - in that being able to do both reliably (even if one is slower) is better than not being able to reliably hit the hard target at all. But I am curious what the numbers we have supports.

ToddG
06-06-2012, 04:09 PM
That is absolutely false. It is generally to a shooter’s advantage in competition to get moving while drawing if the scenario allows it.

And how many of those result in sub-second hits from the holster? That's the whole point: the index draw has a strength, and as soon as one steps away from its strength people either (a) stop using it or (b) miss.

Ben Stoeger
06-06-2012, 04:33 PM
And how many of those result in sub-second hits from the holster? That's the whole point: the index draw has a strength, and as soon as one steps away from its strength people either (a) stop using it or (b) miss.

I think you misunderstood my post. I was not advocating an “index” draw or any other sort of draw. I am just clearing up misconceptions that many shooters hold about the sport I compete in.

I can speak to your question (rhetorical or not) about draws in competition. From what I observe, the number of shooters that can draw and hit a target in 1 second in competition is pretty low. You simply do not often see shooters break 1 second that often in a match regardless of factors like target distance, if the shooter starts moving, etc. However, when people actually fire a shot at a competitive event, it pays dividends to hit the target. Accuracy tends to be pretty good among the better shooters in the sport.

JHC
06-06-2012, 05:13 PM
Caleb's article answers the question for me:


The index draw's utility for most people only works for high percentage shots: target is static, shooter is static, target is close, big, and unobstructed. That's 99% of the first shots fired from the holster in IPSC and IDPA.
Mastering a useful index draw takes time, reps, and ammo; that time and ammo could just as easily be spent on further improving my press-out.
The index draw puts the gun out in front of the body and below the sight line. That's fine for competition. It's not as good for any time you've got close threats or environmental limitations (like a steering wheel or wall) that prevent moving the gun like that. If you're also pressing the trigger before the gun is aligned between your eyes and the target, you're violating a fundamental safety rule.


I don't doubt for a moment that the index draw, practiced enough, can result in a faster first shot out of the gun. Based on all the "index draw shooters" I've seen try the F.A.S.T. in classes and at similar events, I'm convinced that it doesn't translate into consistent on-demand ability to make tough shots under stress. The number of people who'll actually put serious time and effort into both techniques is small. The number who'll call upon the best technique for a given target at a given instant during a dynamic event is even smaller.

The press out, like the fundamentals it incorporates such as sight alignment and trigger manipulation, can be as precise as necessary or as sloppy as allowable. But it's sort of like the aimed vs. point shooting debate, where aimed fire tends to improve one's point shooting while the opposite is not the case. Practicing a good press out means I can call upon it when needed and rush it when it's not. Someone whose practice is all about indexing an A-zone isn't going to "rise to the challenge" when life forces him to hit a small, moving target in low light.

The video from Caleb's article helped me understand the definitions alot and I now reckon to be definitely indexed based.
I've definitely not found Todd's listed potential shortcomings to be a problem. For example when drawing up against an obstruction, I've never rammed the gun into it. ;)

Ben Stoeger
06-06-2012, 05:26 PM
To demonstrate what IPSC actually is I have for you guys a video of an regional match I shot last year. Looking back at it I can find only one example of simply standing in place and shooting a close target (I went with 7 yards or less as a "close" target). On that particular target I moved my feet as I drew to put me in a more advantageous position to get out of there once I was done shooting, so even then it wasn't a completely static situation.

Every other stage had you move a little bit or pick up the gun or load the gun or whatever before you shot. If one of those things didn’t apply than the target was farther away than 7 yards.

Now… none of this has any great bearing on any of this. Looking at the video, I am not sure if I am doing a press out or an index or what the hell is going on… but I think IPSC is a lot more dynamic skills test than what was stated earlier in the thread.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r1KGuhgbdQ

Mr_White
06-06-2012, 05:59 PM
If you're also pressing the trigger before the gun is aligned between your eyes and the target, you're violating a fundamental safety rule.
[/LIST]

Someone whose practice is all about indexing an A-zone isn't going to "rise to the challenge" when life forces him to hit a small, moving target in low light.

I always find this an interesting discussion. I really haven't fully decided this issue for myself. On any given day, I might be feeling the virtues of either a muzzle-level pressout or an index draw - but I don't think I am talking about the same index draw as is under discussion here. I don't use a draw that moves in a 45-ish degree line. When I say an index draw, it is probably a muzzle-level version of what Todd has described as a hybrid technique before. Basically, the difference between the two for me is that when I do a muzzle-level pressout, I slow the gun before full extension, sufficiently to see and finely adjust small degrees of sight alignment and work the trigger at the same time. When I do my index/hybrid draw, I don't try to change the gun's path, but do get the gun to full extension as fast as I can, then see and finely adjust small degrees of sight alignment and finish working the trigger. Overall, I think the hybrid is noticeably faster for me, but is more dependent on my indexing ability to get the gun where it needs to be at full extension.

I have had a few experiences in practice/training that make me unconvinced that index is insufficient to hit a difficult target under difficult conditions - admittedly that may not be as difficult a target as some people are thinking of, and these aren't 'for real' stress conditions. I am speaking of drawing and hitting a black bowling pin at 10 yards, in front of a black and gray bullet trap, in light reduced to near darkness, to the point that I can barely maintain visual fixation on the bowling pin at all, with a gun with black sights, drawing and shooting SHO on a brisk walk moving left (me being right-handed.) I was able to pull several first-round hits under those conditions in person-vs-person practice competition. Anecdotal for sure - I don't have comparative data or a larger sample size or anything like that. And in fairness, I spend a truly ridiculous amount time practicing drawstroke, though not that particular variation (SHO moving left.)

I have some (probably just semantic) disagreement here: If you're also pressing the trigger before the gun is aligned between your eyes and the target, you're violating a fundamental safety rule.

That statement creates a logical web that precludes responsibly using any type of below-line-of-sight retention shooting when necessitated by a proximate threat. Either it needs to be rephrased, or an exception has to be carved out for retention shooting, or retention shooting is thereby declared to be violating a fundamental safety rule. I know this is a tangent - the same one I brought up in the 'punch out vs press out thread.'

There are other ways of knowing where the gun is pointed, using physical reference points that don't require the sights be visible, that can be sufficient to hit a proximate threat when it's necessitated.

Rule 3 was taught to me as: finger needs to be indexed, until two conditions have been met - the muzzle is aligned with the target, and a conscious decision to fire has been made. This phraseology allows for retention shooting to be used without declaring it to be violation of a fundamental safety rule. Semantics tangent for sure, I know you don't think retention shooting is wrong.

JHC
06-06-2012, 06:04 PM
. Looking at the video, I am not sure if I am doing a press out or an index or what the hell is going on… but I think IPSC is a lot more dynamic skills test than what was stated earlier in the thread.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r1KGuhgbdQ

Basically put the gun in front of your face and shoot it. :D

Great watch. No groucho walk? ;)

JAD
06-06-2012, 06:25 PM
The third rule is "keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target."

ToddG
06-06-2012, 07:06 PM
That statement creates a logical web that precludes responsibly using any type of below-line-of-sight retention shooting when necessitated by a proximate threat.

And I think just about everyone who deals with contact-distance shooting understands that a lot of things are different under those circumstances. When something is close enough that sights aren't even an issue, then obviously sight alignment with the eye-target line isn't going to happen.

Getting back to the topic at hand, my point is that people who use the belly-to-extension straight line draw and pull the trigger before the gun is up in front of their face are assuming the area below the target zone will always be safe. The easiest example I've used is with Air Marshals: when they draw their guns they may very likely have to shoot someone standing up, but there will be seated passengers between the FAM and the BG. Traversing all of those people with your muzzle while pressing the trigger is putting a hell of a lot of faith in your timing. And there's no way to argue that it violates a fundamental safety rule.

A less esoteric example would be sitting across from the dinner table with your spouse. If you have to stand and draw to shoot at something behind her, are you really going to want to muzzle her head while pulling the trigger as part of your routine draw stroke?

ummm
06-06-2012, 07:27 PM
Looking at the video, I am not sure if I am doing a press out or an index or what the hell is going on… but I think IPSC is a lot more dynamic skills test than what was stated earlier in the thread.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r1KGuhgbdQ

Ignorant n00b eyeballs are telling me it's almost a hybrid.

Does anyone else see this? When I watch, say, the steel stuff from Caleb's post, there's a lot of true "gun goes from holster to extension in a very straight line". When I watch a video of, say, the slow press out, I see the gun go from holster to the line between the eye and the target, then it kinda rides along that line out to extension.

When I see Ben and Dave shooting the FASTS, it looks like they do a 91.441% Steel-type draw, but that last little 8.559% there's a bit of "rides out along that line" -- only at the very end, towards full extension.

Could easily be my incompetence making this stuff up, but I'm telling it like I see it. Is it possible there's merit, *if* a full-on press-out is considered too slow for IDPA / IPSC, and a full-on Steel Challenge index is too iffy given the added variables of IDPA / IPSC, in a bit of a blend?

Prolly just crazy talk from the fng, but great thread, and thanks to all for your posts -- I'm learning a ton!

Ben Stoeger
06-06-2012, 07:32 PM
Getting back to the topic at hand, my point is that people who use the belly-to-extension straight line draw and pull the trigger before the gun is up in front of their face are assuming the area below the target zone will always be safe.

What if (for the sake of discussion) they were to train themselves to NOT do this. What if they waited until the gun was on target to pull the trigger? What would the diagnosis of the technique be at that point?

Ben Stoeger
06-06-2012, 07:34 PM
Ignorant n00b eyeballs are telling me it's almost a hybrid.

Does anyone else see this? When I watch, say, the steel stuff from Caleb's post, there's a lot of true "gun goes from holster to extension in a very straight line". When I watch a video of, say, the slow press out, I see the gun go from holster to the line between the eye and the target, then it kinda rides along that line out to extension.

When I see Ben and Dave shooting the FASTS, it looks like they do a 91.441% Steel-type draw, but that last little 8.559% there's a bit of "rides out along that line" -- only at the very end, towards full extension.

Could easily be my incompetence making this stuff up, but I'm telling it like I see it. Is it possible there's merit, *if* a full-on press-out is considered too slow for IDPA / IPSC, and a full-on Steel Challenge index is too iffy given the added variables of IDPA / IPSC, in a bit of a blend?

Prolly just crazy talk from the fng, but great thread, and thanks to all for your posts -- I'm learning a ton!

I think you are talking some sense. I never paid much attention to any of this stuff during my own training. I simply get get from the holster, point it at the target, and then pull the trigger. That was always my process to draw... I have just worked at speeding that process up. I don't know what that means in terms of what the best technique is to train on or what the best self defense draw vs competition draw would be. I am just batting ideas around here.

Failure2Stop
06-06-2012, 07:40 PM
What if (for the sake of discussion) they were to train themselves to NOT do this. What if they waited until the gun was on target to pull the trigger? What would the diagnosis of the technique be at that point?

What do you mean by "pull the trigger"?
Make initial contact, remove initial slack, begin the press, complete the full trigger travel, or all of it?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Ben Stoeger
06-06-2012, 07:43 PM
What do you mean by "pull the trigger"?
Make initial contact, remove initial slack, begin the press, complete the full trigger travel, or all of it?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Well... I meant make contact with... as in start to pull the trigger... but what about any or all of those? I don't see a point to limiting the conversation to any one idea or question.

JHC
06-06-2012, 08:02 PM
Using Todd's examples, people who draw along a 45 degree angle to full extension would still be muzzling seated passengers, spouse, etc. One of the more eye-opening pieces of ECQC was working the draw in confined spaces and in proximity to others. I gained a real appreciation for the straight up and straight out draw stroke.

Yes if they didn't react situationally which they will HAVE to do for a thousand variables. Like moving the heck off the X so wifey is not in line with the gunfight. FAMs are gonna be sweeping folks in a gunfight on a plane.

ToddG
06-06-2012, 08:19 PM
Yes if they didn't react situationally which they will HAVE to do for a thousand variables.

Exactly the problem: there will be -- by your estimate -- a thousand variables. You think someone under stress is going to switch from "eating dinner" to "tactical variable processing machine" in the blink of an eye?

Ben Stoeger
06-06-2012, 08:23 PM
Ok so there are a few questions floating around then:

What is the fastest technique for hitting a target on a shooting range?

What about when it is a really tough shot?

What is the easiest technique to learn?

What is the best technique to train for self defense?

Shawn Knight
06-06-2012, 10:14 PM
Ok so there are a few questions floating around then:

What is the fastest technique for hitting a target on a shooting range?
Hmmm... Getting the gun out of the holster and indexed to the target with as little extra motion as possible?? The Bruce Lee Draw? I really think it depends on the shooter. We will all end up "refining" our draw over time to get what we need from it. I started with the 5 point draw in my youth and refined to simply getting the gun out and indexed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5zK-6zfvjY

What about when it is a really tough shot? From the draw?
Well I can imagine at Ben's level it would be required to hit the tough shots from the draw and it would require a fast-smooth draw in order to facilitate accuracy on a tough shot. At my level I still need to take a little time to aim.


What is the easiest technique to learn?
The 5 pint draw was easy however the SIG version with only "3" points(Access-Withdraw-Drive) had an advantage of less motion in your brain.
Access - Get to the gun
Withdraw - Get the gun out
Drive - Get the gun to the target smoothly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVNypPUGto

What is the best technique to train for self defense?
I would say the technique that allows for shooting from retention.

jthhapkido
06-06-2012, 11:03 PM
What is the best technique to train for self defense?

Actually, an answer to that can be found by asking Tom Givens, I'll bet. Considering the number of people he has trained, and the number of them who have had to actually draw their firearm, plus the number that have "won" the fight (for whatever definition of "won" you like you use)---it would be interesting to see how many of them had trouble dealing with the many variations that occur in self-defense situations (very few, I'll bet), how many of them needed to worry about other people in the line of their draw, etc.

There have been many cogent reasons stated for keeping fingers off the trigger till the sights are aligned with the eye/bad guy, getting the gun up to that line as soon as possible versus getting the gun to extension etc---and all sound perfectly reasonable.

Now---the question is, based on situations that actually occur, what things are actually necessary? For example, in the cases known, how many situations really were one in which the bad guys were open targets where speed was of the essence? As opposed to low-percentage targets with intervening issues?

Note: this isn't an argument that being able to hit low-percentage targets isn't important. However, if the vast majority of situations require speed on wide-open bad guys, though, working a slower draw isn't a good start---certainly not a priority. On the other hand, if small targets ARE more prevalent, then you have something different, and should change your training priorities.

So anyone have data on what actually happens? Listening to Tom Given's lecture (which is a great DVD, by the way) it seemed to me that almost every single one of those situations was a wide-open target. I may be misremembering, though---I'll have to watch it again, or check my notes.

Thoughts?

YVK
06-06-2012, 11:26 PM
In context of a discussed topic, I've been actively looking for pistol classes that offer moving targets as a part of course of fire, hopefully, faster moving targets. Unfortunately, the only one I know of is Ernest Langdon's advanced class, and it seems that Ernest is taking 2012 off.

DocGKR
06-07-2012, 01:31 AM
Mr. Stoeger,

I don't know you, I respect your competition shooting skills, and had high hopes that your participation at this forum was done in the spirit of helping fellow shooters; however, after reading your comments here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/330424137010498/, along with those of a couple of other individuals associated with you who have begun posting here of late, I am perplexed by what your true motives are, as you seem quite disparaging, appear to encourage trolling, and generally are behaving rather boorishly. What gives?

one
06-07-2012, 02:00 AM
Mr. Stoeger,

I don't know you, I respect your competition shooting skills, and had high hopes that your participation at this forum was done in the spirit of helping fellow shooters; however, after reading your comments here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/330424137010498/, along with those of a couple of other individuals associated with you who have begun posting here of late, I am perplexed by what your true motives are, as you seem quite disparaging, appear to encourage trolling, and generally are behaving rather boorishly. What gives?

Wow, this has got to be one of the greatest busts of a two faced troll I've ever seen online. You're something else, actually trying to invoke individuals to actively troll this forum via your facebook group.

"Ok here is a great chance to Troll! I dare you guys to defend the press out!" That is a direct cut and paste quote of yours that also includes a direct link to the press out thread here.

"Ben Stoeger Just having a bit of fun.... that and Todd has attacked me personally a couple times so I am being a child about it." And there's the cut and paste of your response in that thread to the first group member up asking why the need to troll a forum.

Ben Stoeger
06-07-2012, 05:31 AM
Mr. Stoeger,

I don't know you, I respect your competition shooting skills, and had high hopes that your participation at this forum was done in the spirit of helping fellow shooters; however, after reading your comments here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/330424137010498/, along with those of a couple of other individuals associated with you who have begun posting here of late, I am perplexed by what your true motives are, as you seem quite disparaging, appear to encourage trolling, and generally are behaving rather boorishly. What gives?


Doc,

All of my posts on facebook AND here are open to the public and certainly anyone can view them. I haven't posted anything malicious here or on facebook. Yes I flat out say I started this thread to troll… but then look at what I and others from the face book group posted in the thread.

On face book I am constantly linking to videos and articles on websites or threads encouraging people to “go troll”. Typically there is an actual productive conversation that ensues. I posted what I posted on face book knowing that many people are watching my face book group, including many people that post here! I think we have at least one person that is staff here who is on my face book group. I posted knowing that. So what does that tell you?

Ben Stoeger
06-07-2012, 05:40 AM
Wow, this has got to be one of the greatest busts of a two faced troll I've ever seen online. You're something else, actually trying to invoke individuals to actively troll this forum via your facebook group.

"Ok here is a great chance to Troll! I dare you guys to defend the press out!" That is a direct cut and paste quote of yours that also includes a direct link to the press out thread here.

"Ben Stoeger Just having a bit of fun.... that and Todd has attacked me personally a couple times so I am being a child about it." And there's the cut and paste of your response in that thread to the first group member up asking why the need to troll a forum.

I posted that to him with full knowledge that he is a staff member here. None of what I posted was done in secret. There have even been a couple people that are members of the facebook group post on here and they didn't "troll", they actually posted about the topic.

TheRoland
06-07-2012, 06:53 AM
. Yes I flat out say I started this thread to troll… but then look at what I and others from the face book group posted in the thread.


I've found Ben's posts to be abrupt and blunt... And very interesting. I think we've benefitted from his disagreements, no matter what he calls them.

TCinVA
06-07-2012, 07:06 AM
Yes I flat out say I started this thread to troll…

If it is not your intent to cause grief, then I suggest you become more precise in your use of language.

Otherwise we will be forced to take you at your word and act accordingly.

Encouraging discussion is fine. Encouraging "trolling" is not.

I find it irksome that some of the people in your orbit have become problems that I and other staff members have to deal with. I have no interest in cleaning up the mess of people you recruit to "troll" the forum.

Ben Stoeger
06-07-2012, 07:14 AM
If it is not your intent to cause grief, then I suggest you become more precise in your use of language.

Otherwise we will be forced to take you at your word and act accordingly.

Encouraging discussion is fine. Encouraging "trolling" is not.

Maybe instead of "taking me at my word" you could go cruise my facebook group "Team Doodie Project" and get a sense of what is posted there. There is lots of joking around, foul language, and serious topics discussed. Much of the content would be found objectionable on a forum like this. If you take things posted on “Team Doodie Project” seriously, you would also think that I believe a certain shooting team to be comprised of Ninjas and that the group is devoted to running females out of the shooting sports.

If you would like to cross post things out of the context of a group that is all about joking around (I think the name Doodie Project would clue people in on this) and then hold me accountable for them that is totally fine with me. I just don’t think it would make a great deal of sense.

TCinVA
06-07-2012, 07:21 AM
Maybe instead of "taking me at my word" you could go cruise my facebook group "Team Doodie Project" and get a sense of what is posted there.

This isn't a discussion. It's a direction.

Just like everyone else, your participation on Pistol-Forum.com is contingent upon obeying the rules of the site. We don't tolerate people using this forum as a base to recruit efforts to troll other sites, nor will we allow it to be a target for someone asking the ether "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?"

I don't care what happens on facebook. I do care when people show up here and cause trouble. I want it to stop.

Ben Stoeger
06-07-2012, 07:37 AM
I don't care what happens on facebook. I do care when people show up here and cause trouble. I want it to stop.

When someone acting at my direction shows up here and then causes trouble that I directed him to cause, then I will tell him to stop.

I think you just might overestimate the amount of control I have over these guys.

TCinVA
06-07-2012, 07:46 AM
When someone acting at my direction shows up here and then causes trouble that I directed him to cause, then I will tell him to stop.

I think you just might overestimate the amount of control I have over these guys.

You have to realize how thoroughly incredible that statement is.

Well, it can't be said that we didn't try to be reasonable.

Have it your way.

JHC
06-07-2012, 07:53 AM
Exactly the problem: there will be -- by your estimate -- a thousand variables. You think someone under stress is going to switch from "eating dinner" to "tactical variable processing machine" in the blink of an eye?

Yep! I know it. Cause I've done it. Stopping the abduction of a woman by two perps in a extremely dynamic event and steering through car wrecks for starters. A few other encounters with criminals that utilized unconventional methods not previously "learned". All of those involved actions which I've never heard of being included in a tactical training course. And gunfighters have been doing it for a century. The weapon of the mind trumps technique. The technique if a tool for the mind. Even muscle memory is a tool of the mind. I'm quite certain a trained individual can prevail with either draw stroke. They have.

Is the counterpoint to my point that the press out draw relieves one of most, some or all of these challenges?

Failure2Stop
06-07-2012, 08:15 AM
Well... I meant make contact with... as in start to pull the trigger... but what about any or all of those? I don't see a point to limiting the conversation to any one idea or question.

I'm just trying to frame the concept for my own understanding.

You are a better competitor and shooter than I am, so I am naturally interested in your view and execution of the concept.

I have been teaching beginner through "advanced" pistol shooters for about 12 years now, and I have noticed an increase in speed and precision of first shots after I brought the concept and practice of the press out into my curriculum. Before that, there were greater incidents of anticipation when the trigger was met or greatest trigger travel distance was done at extension instead of at an earlier time in the presentation. I do agree that it is a function of less than perfect trigger control and pre ignition push, but I am unsure of how to bring the necessary level of trigger control proficiency and anticipation avoidance into a class setting without using the pressout concept.

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ToddG
06-07-2012, 08:16 AM
This forum has plenty of examples going back to the very beginning of people disagreeing about things -- including more than one debate about the press out. Those threads don't get locked. Those participants don't get banned.

This forum also has a few examples of people who feign interest in a topic while actually trying to instigate problems, who actively recruit people via other social media to troll pistol-forum.com, and/or who act barely within the lines of propriety in public but are belligerent, disrespectful, and hostile in PMs with Staff. Those participants get banned.

When a group of people purposely start a thread for the purpose of stirring up trouble, it's difficult to separate who is offering sincere commentary and who is just pushing buttons to cause trouble. As such, while this thread may indeed have had some potential value it currently serves no purpose but to grant a small group of trolls exactly what they wanted.