Trump moves to limit TVA CEO pay, fire him, & stop outsourcing

[LittleLebowski]

Ok, I’m pretty sure everyone can agree these are good things. It’s infuriating what the TVA was up to.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-tva/trump-ousts-tva-board-members-over-outsourcing-jobs-targets-ceo-salary-idUSKCN24Z2A4


President Donald Trump said on Monday he was formally removing two members from the board of the Tennessee Valley Authority for seeking to outsource U.S. jobs to foreign workers, and criticized its chief executive as “ridiculously overpaid.”

[LittleLebowski]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-03/trump-to-limit-u-s-contractors-use-of-foreign-workers



President Donald Trump on Monday barred federal agencies from dismissing U.S. citizens or green card holders and replacing them with foreign workers, and blasted a major state enterprise for having done so.

The executive order Trump signed Monday increases scrutiny of federal contractors’ use of H-1B visas to bring in temporary foreign labor for high-skilled jobs rather than relying on American workers.

The action was prompted by the federally owned Tennessee Valley Authority’s June announcement that it’s laying off 62 information technology workers as the federal power agency outsources data and programming work, according to an administration official who asked for anonymity.

[LittleLebowski]

#PepperidgeFarmRemembers (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=PepperidgeFarmRemembers)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4037392/Disney-fired-250-American-workers-replaced-Indian-staff-visas-suit-says.html


Walt Disney Parks and Resorts is being sued by 30 former IT staff from its Florida offices who claim they were unfairly replaced by foreign workers - but only after being forced to train them up.

The suit, filed Monday in an Orlando court, alleges that Disney laid off 250 of its US IT staff because it wanted to replace them with staff from India, who were hired in on H-1B foreign employee visas.

[MK11]

Do as he says, not as he does (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kenbensinger/mar-a-lago-rejected-dozens-of-americans-in-favor-of-foreign)?

[blues]

Do as he says, not as he does (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kenbensinger/mar-a-lago-rejected-dozens-of-americans-in-favor-of-foreign)?

Reminds me of Hillary and Al. And not a few others. Easy to preach. Harder to practice.

[LittleLebowski]

Do as he says, not as he does (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kenbensinger/mar-a-lago-rejected-dozens-of-americans-in-favor-of-foreign)?

I'm sure that was a personal decision that he was involved in. Yup.

[LittleLebowski]

I actually thought this would be a big deal, as it really resonates with me, having seen outsourcing and H1B visa abuse at the expense of American jobs, but instead... #OrangeManBad (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=OrangeManBad)

[blues]

I actually thought this would be a big deal, as it really resonates with me, having seen outsourcing and H1B visa abuse at the expense of American jobs, but instead... #OrangeManBad (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=OrangeManBad)

I think the idea has merit. I'm all for protecting Americans and American workers. Sometimes it's a little hard not to be cynical given the failure of our elected officials to live up to the standards they promulgate.

Still, I'm not for killing the messenger. After all, we need someone to beat Biden. (But nobody gets a free pass.)

[RJ]

Good for Trump. This is a good idea past due.

[Jim Watson]

It is often pointed out that TVA BoD is not as high paid as commercial utility executives and have no stock options to sweeten the deal.

But it is a US Government agency and jobs ought to go to US citizens.

TVA was a Depression agency and early days, only one member of a household could work there, spread out the jobs. Even when I started there, there was a cap on how much pay could go to one household. I knew one couple who turned down promotions so both could stay there, but eventually one got a take it or leave deal and the other had to quit. The cap was later removed and she came back.

[JAD]

Ok, I’m pretty sure everyone can agree these are good things. It’s infuriating what the TVA was up to.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-tva/trump-ousts-tva-board-members-over-outsourcing-jobs-targets-ceo-salary-idUSKCN24Z2A4

The TVA got my favorite guy fired...

58389
Fortunately he went on to better things.

[Zincwarrior]

The TVA got my favorite guy fired...

58389
Fortunately he went on to better things.

Que?

[rcbusmc24]

Que?


Then-movie star Ronald Reagan had moved to television as the host and a frequent performer for General Electric Theater during 1954. Reagan was later fired by General Electric in 1962 in response to his publicly referring to the TVA (TVA being a major customer for GE turbines) as one of the problems of "big government".[53] Some claim that Reagan was instead fired due to a criminal antitrust investigation involving him and the Screen Actors Guild.[54] However, Reagan was only interviewed; nobody was actually charged with anything in the investigation.[55][56]

[Zincwarrior]

Thanks. Thats interesting. As a Texan I have minimal knowledge of the TVA, or something called "winter."

[farscott]

It is often pointed out that TVA BoD is not as high paid as commercial utility executives and have no stock options to sweeten the deal.

But it is a US Government agency and jobs ought to go to US citizens.

TVA was a Depression agency and early days, only one member of a household could work there, spread out the jobs. Even when I started there, there was a cap on how much pay could go to one household. I knew one couple who turned down promotions so both could stay there, but eventually one got a take it or leave deal and the other had to quit. The cap was later removed and she came back.

Not to mention, it is a US Government agency that uses nuclear materials. I did find it interesting that some TVA employees/directors make more per year than POTUS.

[flyrodr]

Not to mention, it is a US Government agency that uses nuclear materials. I did find it interesting that some TVA employees/directors make more per year than POTUS.

Not disputing the salaries of TVA higher-ups, but the idea of "making more than POTUS" needs to factor in the overall "cost" to the taxpayers of the POTUS. "Free lodging and meals", transportation, security, pretty good retirement, post-job book and speaking deals, etc. A lot of executive jobs have such perks, but not exactly on that scale. Or maybe I should say rarely on that scale.

[TAZ]

I wish that somehow this kind of ruling or law could be applied to all industries across the nation. I have no issues with bringing in temporary workers where there really is a shortage, but lots of folks use the H1B process to drive down prices.

Maybe the annual fees associated with H1B should go up enough to make the total cost of ownership the same between US citizen and foreign national.

[Jim Watson]

I believe TVA had to get a legislative exemption to pay the packed BoDs and CEO more than a congresscritter. Worth more, though.

[Exiledviking]

Maybe we can replace the Congress critters with some people on H1B visas?

[frank]

I actually thought this would be a big deal, as it really resonates with me, having seen outsourcing and H1B visa abuse at the expense of American jobs, but instead... #OrangeManBad (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=OrangeManBad)


This is a big deal, and wage suppression via H1B has been a huge abuse of Americans in the sciences as well. It must be discussed in a clear headed fashion without fear of being accused of xenophobia.

The H-1B was designed to weaken American workers’ bargaining positions so much that they would be forced to mitigate their wage demands. It's a wage tampering program. (loosely quoting Eric Weinstein here, who has had great deal to say on the subject, here's a starting point: https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/how-why-government-universities-industry-create-domestic-labor-shortages-of-scientists-high-tech-workers). His paper is linked at the end of the article.

[YVK]

This is a big deal, and wage suppression via H1B has been a huge abuse of Americans in the sciences as well. It must be discussed in a clear headed fashion without fear of being accused of xenophobia.

The H-1B was designed to weaken American workers’ bargaining positions so much that they would be forced to mitigate their wage demands. It's a wage tampering program. (loosely quoting Eric Weinstein here, who has had great deal to say on the subject, here's a starting point: https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/how-why-government-universities-industry-create-domestic-labor-shortages-of-scientists-high-tech-workers). His paper is linked at the end of the article.



When I first got my job here in the US, it was on an H-1B visa. The position and the wage were called "PGY-1" and it was all the same, whether you were on a visa, green card, naturalized, or naturally born US citizen. In approximately 75 or so PGY-1 of my classmates there were less than 5 US school graduates because every US citizen who could get into a better place to work did so. Eric Weinstein needs to increase his scope of knowledge were and how H-1Bs are used.

H-1B was not designed to weaken bargaining positions, it was designed to facilitate the brain drain from outside. What's its abuse did is a different story, although that part does lead into a discussion what free market means.

[farscott]

Not disputing the salaries of TVA higher-ups, but the idea of "making more than POTUS" needs to factor in the overall "cost" to the taxpayers of the POTUS. "Free lodging and meals", transportation, security, pretty good retirement, post-job book and speaking deals, etc. A lot of executive jobs have such perks, but not exactly on that scale. Or maybe I should say rarely on that scale.

One also needs to consider the impact of each position and its costs. I find it difficult to believe that the director of the TVA is worth half the compensation of POTUS, especially when the former is allowing the taking of jobs from US citizens and giving them to visa holders. Then we get to the CEO of the TVA. Roughly $2.2 million per year to be the CEO of TVA and he also has three outside board memberships. President Trump said he earned $8 million per year, but I am not able to validate that number. $2.2 million is more than five times that the salary of POTUS. The pension for POTUS is currently $207,800 per year plus the costs of security. That still looks a lot less expensive than the pension for someone earning $2.2 million per year.

[LittleLebowski]

This is a big deal, and wage suppression via H1B has been a huge abuse of Americans in the sciences as well. It must be discussed in a clear headed fashion without fear of being accused of xenophobia.

The H-1B was designed to weaken American workers’ bargaining positions so much that they would be forced to mitigate their wage demands. It's a wage tampering program. (loosely quoting Eric Weinstein here, who has had great deal to say on the subject, here's a starting point: https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/how-why-government-universities-industry-create-domestic-labor-shortages-of-scientists-high-tech-workers). His paper is linked at the end of the article.

Exactly. The tech companies would rather import jobs than hire Americans and pay decent wages to Americans.

[mtnbkr]

Exactly. The tech companies would rather import jobs than hire Americans and pay decent wages to Americans.

A big part of my job is working with sales and bid development teams on construction of IT security services in response to the RFPs and similar vehicles of our international customers (and those who don't know they want to be our customers yet ;) ). The pressure to put "transactional" work in "lower cost economies" like India is massive. More than once, I knew our American ops teams could do something better than anyone else, but due to the cost it was a non-starter. When I managed to push through services based on Americans, the customer pushes back on cost (or we lose to less expensive competitors solely on cost). I can get 6 Indians for the cost of 1 American (or 3ish Brits, some number of Spanish, etc). It's simply a losing argument unless the Americans are extremely superior in doing the work than less expensive alternatives. Even then it's a difficult argument because you can throw extra resources at the problem (TDAs, Project Managers, Problem Managers, etc) to support the Ops guys and STILL be under the cost of an American-based solution. One could argue that the cost of rework, missed SLAs, etc offset the lower cost of those guys, but that expense isn't recognized at the "win new business" level. Sure, it affects the profitability of a contract, but is seen as a problem for Ops to solve via Problem Management rather than something to be fixed pre-sales by utilizing better qualified and more expensive resources (ie spend the money up front rather than on the back end).

We're not price competitive. :(

I won't get into the current push to automate as much as possible. Even Indians can be too expensive. Frankly, with AI and such, there may be a point where a job in IT will not be particularly lucrative unless you're doing something that can't be automated. Then you'll be competing with people who have a totally different lifestyle expectation than you. It's not going to be pretty.

It's why I got out of Ops. I knew there would be a time when I would either be "managing" a team of Indians remotely or out of a job entirely. Even in this role I'm the only American doing what I do in our company. I'm good at it, but if times get tough, I may be price out of a job.

Chris

[LittleLebowski]

When I first got my job here in the US, it was on an H-1B visa. The position and the wage were called "PGY-1" and it was all the same, whether you were on a visa, green card, naturalized, or naturally born US citizen. In approximately 75 or so PGY-1 of my classmates there were less than 5 US school graduates because every US citizen who could get into a better place to work did so. Eric Weinstein needs to increase his scope of knowledge were and how H-1Bs are used.

H-1B was not designed to weaken bargaining positions, it was designed to facilitate the brain drain from outside. What's its abuse did is a different story, although that part does lead into a discussion what free market means.

Medical H1B visas versus tech H1B visas are two very different worlds, with regards to numbers and abuse.

[LittleLebowski]

Medical H1B visas versus tech H1B visas are two very different worlds, with regards to numbers and abuse.

In 2016, the medical industry accounted for 7,765 H1B visas. The tech industry accounted for 335,052 H1B visas.

Source: https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=IN

[jh9]

H-1B was not designed to weaken bargaining positions, it was designed to facilitate the brain drain from outside. What's its abuse did is a different story, although that part does lead into a discussion what free market means.

I think you're correct. I've worked with many skilled H1B developers and would prefer they continue make their way here, pay taxes here and raise families here. I'd rather the best of the best come here than go somewhere else. I don't know where the next tech hub will be, but I do selfishly want it to be in the US.

There's been talk year in and year out of raising the minimum H1B wage and I think that would be a good way to combat abuse. The most recent (https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2020/05/21/trump-minimum-wage-for-h-1b-visa-holders-could-reach-250000-a-year/) example.


but that expense isn't recognized at the "win new business" level

It's cheap until it isn't, and then it's awfully expensive. The current CEO won't believe you, but the next one will. Rinse and repeat.

I've worked for companies doing on-shoring because the costs you mention ("rework, missed SLAs, etc") didn't get priced in. It doesn't really bother me that short-sighted decision makers get charged twice. Once "cheaply" to get it done, and again afterwards more expensively to get it right. That sort of pain is good and necessary.

Add to that the growing complexity of the software world, where once upon a time you'd pay a domestic FTE just to build a static website. Now you wouldn't do that, because you can pay a teenager or someone in another timezone to set up your Wordpress site and hack together some shitty php extension. While the more experienced people are busy building ever more complex software to meet ever more complex needs in a world with a shrinking minority of people capable of keeping up with just how fucking insanely complicated it's getting.

It's one of the reasons I stayed technical with 20 years on the clock instead of going into management. We recently had furloughs and the project managers got hit hard. We've lost devs to attrition and new opportunities but not one has been furloughed, much less laid off. It's getting pretty complicated out there. And there's a diminishing number of people capable of doing it. I think it's a pretty small number, overall, and I want every single one of them in the US. Having a dominating, near-monopoly over tech is something that should be a strategic priority.

[YVK]

In 2016, the medical industry accounted for 7,765 H1B visas. The tech industry accounted for 335,052 H1B visas.

Source: https://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Category.aspx?T=IN

A smaller point: not sure I fully understand or believe the data. They list average salary for those 7,765 medical jobs at 123 grand. The vast majority of those H1 visas in medical field is issued for post-grad residents, and those residents earn less than half of $123K. Something doesn't add up.

Bigger points: is the argument against the entity, or abuse thereof? Other than levels of salary and education, how is this different from all other forms of labor outsourcing that the US companies engage on hourly basis? What is the 21st century definition of a free market, and do we even want it?

[blues]

What is the 21st century definition of a free market, and do we even want it?

Exactly the question I've been wondering about...(because you can't have it both ways).

[LittleLebowski]

A smaller point: not sure I fully understand or believe the data. They list average salary for those 7,765 medical jobs at 123 grand. The vast majority of those H1 visas in medical field is issued for post-grad residents, and those residents earn less than half of $123K. Something doesn't add up.

Bigger points: is the argument against the entity, or abuse thereof? Other than levels of salary and education, how is this different from all other forms of labor outsourcing that the US companies engage on hourly basis? What is the 21st century definition of a free market, and do we even want it?

I don't know what to tell you, the numbers from the government are not the same, but I doubt there's anything faked here.

Insofar as the free market, I used to want it until I saw how tech abuses the H1B visa, not to mention say buying a nice American made Leatherman or a good knockoff made with Chinese labor and imported and shipped to Walmart.

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/foia/Characteristics_of_H-1B_Specialty_Occupation_Workers_FY17.pdf

[mtnbkr]

Exactly the question I've been wondering about...(because you can't have it both ways).

It's regression to the mean. We're not bringing them up to our standard of living, but bringing us down to theirs. India has been a major player in the IT services world for over 20 years now and they still shit in the streets there.

Kind of like we're doing in San Fran...

Chris

[blues]

It's regression to the mean. We're not bringing them up to our standard of living, but bringing us down to theirs. India has been a major player in the IT services world for over 20 years now and they still shit in the streets there.

Kind of like we're doing in San Fran...

Chris

Well, that paints a rosy picture. Sidewalk art taken to the extreme.

[frank]

More thoughts on this - there is a carefully researched paper released in 2016 by economists at Notre Dame, the University of California, Berkeley, and the Office of Tax Analysis at the U.S. Department of Treasury. To quote EPI:


Their findings should put an end to the notion that H-1Bs are in any way good for U.S. workers. The research solves the problem of causality by employing a natural experiment. Two types of businesses were studied, those that applied for and received visas through the H-1B random “lottery” (because more employers want H-1Bs than are annually available, the government has to allocate them via lottery), and those that applied but failed in the lottery. If the H-1B visa raised wages, led to job creation, or spurred innovation, the companies that were awarded the visas should do better on each of those counts. In fact, they did not. On the contrary, over the eight years following the hiring of an H-1B worker, U.S. workers were displaced, wages were lowered, and there was no positive effect on innovation.

https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/h1b.pdf

Again, my position is not to suggest that high skilled immigration is wrong (it isn't!), but that large outsourcing firms like Infosys, Wipro and Tata (chart for FY2008 (http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/st_NumbersGuy_20090331.html?mod=article_inline)) that are the leading users of the H1-B programs have a negative correlation for American workers vs. companies like Apple, and Google who largely have advanced degrees from US universities.

[mtnbkr]

I don't know where the next tech hub will be, but I do selfishly want it to be in the US.
Me too. But we can't do it by resting on our laurels or continuing to do the same thing over and over. Transactional work can't be seen as a career any longer.


It's cheap until it isn't, and then it's awfully expensive. The current CEO won't believe you, but the next one will. Rinse and repeat.

I've worked for companies doing on-shoring because the costs you mention ("rework, missed SLAs, etc") didn't get priced in. It doesn't really bother me that short-sighted decision makers get charged twice. Once "cheaply" to get it done, and again afterwards more expensively to get it right. That sort of pain is good and necessary.[/quote]
Problem is, the money comes from different buckets and customers buy on price more often than not. It's a rare customer at the corporate level that will sign the more expensive contract unless the less expensive option is obviously unsuited. We won a contract like that last year because the customer could tell from our conversations we knew what we were doing and had "been there, done that". I sat in a boardroom with those guys and walked them through our service, how we could provide them the personalized support they wanted, etc. Components of that service was based in the US too, but that customer was primarily a US-based one (HQ in US, but some manufacturing overseas).
Our competitor couldn't be bothered to visit in person and was providing a cookie cutter option.


It's one of the reasons I stayed technical with 20 years on the clock instead of going into management. We recently had furloughs and the project managers got hit hard. We've lost devs to attrition and new opportunities but not one has been furloughed, much less laid off. It's getting pretty complicated out there. And there's a diminishing number of people capable of doing it.
We've never been busier ourselves.


Having a dominating, near-monopoly over tech is something that should be a strategic priority.
Yup, agree completely.

Chris

[YVK]

Exactly the question I've been wondering about...(because you can't have it both ways).





Insofar as the free market, I used to want it until I saw how tech abuses the H1B visa, not to mention say buying a nice American made Leatherman or a good knockoff made with Chinese labor...

I don't have any problems with protecting US workers from global market forces. I also don't believe that it can be done in an accurate and selective way; if anything, current H1B thing is an evidence to that. As long as we're ok with any unintended consequences, I am all good with whatever the plan is.