Pistols (and pistol mounted optics) I saw this week

[Erick Gelhaus]

Another installment of The Guns (& Optics) I Saw This Week:

Ten students, with varying degrees of PMO experience, took Gunsite’s inaugural 250 Defensive Pistol-PMO class this past week. In addition to square range work, there are indoor & outdoor simulator runs as well. Temps were in the high 90s up to 115 at about 4800’ ASL.

1) Glock 19 / Trij SRO
2) M&P 2.0 9mm 4.25” / Trij 1.0moa RMR
3) Glock 19 / Trij SRO
4) Glock 19 / Trij SRO
5) M&P 1.0 5” CORE / Trij RMR (Loaned)
6) Sig p228 Legion 9mm / Sig Romeo
7) Glock 19 / Unity Tactical / Leupold DPP Dot (Loaned) with a Tau SCD
8) Glock 17 / Leupold DPP Triangle (Loaned)
9) Atlas Athena 2011ish 9mm / Trij SRO
10) Shadow Systems 9mm / Holosun

The round count was just about 980-1000 rounds of regular ammunition, and close to all of the 50 rounds of frangible ammunition required.

No pistols had to make a trip to the on-site gunsmith. No optics died.

What broke?
The after-market suppressor height front on a Glock19/Unity Tactical Atom mount departed the slide on TD4. Fortunately, it’s so big we found it on the ground, and the screw was still inside the assembled slide. The sight had been installed with thread locker on it, but it has been a few years.
Another student was using a Glock19/ C&H V4 plate / Trij SRO combination. At the end of TD3, he noticed one of the screws for the C&H plate had sheared. He had the MOS plate and screws with him. He changed out the plate, re-zeroed at the start of TD4, and continued without issue.

I saw failures to feed, failures to fire during the class, but not enough to stand out with any one pistol. Ammunition availability, as well as QA/QC is a prominent issue right now as I saw several failures to fire with solid primer strikes.

The Atlas Athena was set-up much more for competition as opposed to defensive use. There seemed to be a struggle with the differences between previous experience and the manipulations, manual of arms – if you will – that we teach.

I was curious about how the Shadow Systems MR918 would perform. It ran just fine; I’d be interested in getting some time in on one. (Caveat: I have a student of mine who works for that company now.) I’m looking forward to getting my hands on a Holosun as well.

The Sig & Sig combo had sort of a rough start. The holster was interfering with the PMO controls every time he holstered or drew the pistol. Coarse sandpaper took care of that.

No battery issues were noted during the week; however, change them regularly.

Weather conditions did not require RainX or CatCrap, but the lenses were accumulating a fair amount of crud & junk over the week. I could see that while working with the students.

Note: While this was far from the first time students had PMO equipped guns in Gunsite classes, it was the first run of a course specific to them with material focused on the combination.

This is a continuation of the idea behind this thread:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37196-Pistols-I-saw-last-week-amp-what-stood-out

There will be another PMO update towards the end of August.

[mrozowjj]

Another student was using a Glock19/ C&H V4 plate / Trij SRO combination. At the end of TD3, he noticed one of the screws for the C&H plate had sheared. He had the MOS plate and screws with him. He changed out the plate, re-zeroed at the start of TD4, and continued without issue.


Just to be clear it was the screws that broke and he had to change the plate because the the only screws he had that were spare would only fit the MOS plate?

Or did the screw posts themselves break?

[backtrail540]

Just to be clear it was the screws that broke and he had to change the plate because the the only screws he had that were spare would only fit the MOS plate?

Or did the screw posts themselves break?

From the picture above, it looks as if the screw sheared off in the t post so he swapped in a new screw and t post. I believe that is by design and the idea behind the v4. T posts are easy to change and better than buying a whole new plate.

Edit - i need to read more carefully. I saw he said mos plate. My apologies

[UNM1136]

Thanks Erick!

pat

[Erick Gelhaus]

What broke?
...
Another student was using a Glock19/ C&H V4 plate / Trij SRO combination. At the end of TD3, he noticed one of the screws for the C&H plate had sheared. He had the MOS plate and screws with him. He changed out the plate, re-zeroed at the start of TD4, and continued without issue.



Just to be clear it was the screws that broke and he had to change the plate because the the only screws he had that were spare would only fit the MOS plate?

Or did the screw posts themselves break?

Should have been more descriptive, I thought the photo would help.

Re the C&H V4 plate, one of the screws used to attach the optic to the plate sheared in two.


Thanks Erick!

pat

You're welcome, sir!

[MGW]

I like these summaries.

I assume you use a standard set of tests in all classes. It would probably be tedious and or impossible but it would be interesting to look at average scores on a couple of those tests over time comparing MRDS shooters to iron sighted shooters.

[1Rangemaster]

I would like to thank Erick Gelhaus for his detailed report. All of this is very useful as the technology advances.
Regarding the screw, I believe it’s been mentioned several times that the plate is part of the system to attend to. Ideally, a direct mill would be best for one particular sight, but the MOS has flexibility.
In my limited experience, I had a plate loosen with an RMR2 on a G45-it happens. So, it’s a maintenance item to be attended to. I’ve had good luck with both the MOS and C&H plate. The one incident of plate loosening was lack of thread locker on my part. Plenty of blue Loctite or “Vibratite” for me since!
I try to check the whole system weekly.
Thanks again for reporting

[Erick Gelhaus]

I like these summaries.

I assume you use a standard set of tests in all classes. It would probably be tedious and or impossible but it would be interesting to look at average scores on a couple of those tests over time comparing MRDS shooters to iron sighted shooters.

Interesting suggestion. I'm teaching another 250 this week, though it's not PMO centric. I'll try to remember to compare scores. However, a better metric might be a standard intermediate class to the PMO intermediate class I'm teaching next month.

[mrozowjj]

Should have been more descriptive, I thought the photo would help.

Re the C&H V4 plate, one of the screws used to attach the optic to the plate sheared in two.



You're welcome, sir!

No worries. I was reading this on my phone and didn't see the picture. Would have been more clear if I had.

Seems like screws should be almost considered single use for any slide mounted optic. Really makes the ACRO and Holosun 509t crossbar design seem preferable on a slide.

[Doc_Glock]

Love these threads. Please keep posting them.

[1Rangemaster]

No worries. I was reading this on my phone and didn't see the picture. Would have been more clear if I had.

Seems like screws should be almost considered single use for any slide mounted optic. Really makes the ACRO and Holosun 509t crossbar design seem preferable on a slide.

I *think* C&H recommends replacement of all the screws when dismounted, battery change, etc. In my experience, they have been quite helpful and responsive. Their products seem thought out. Their plates are a tight, “click” fit too.
I agree with the crossbar mounting plate a la ACRO. It takes a good among of the forces during slide cycling.

[SoCalDep]

Very nice report Erick!

Your observations echo what I’ve seen in our pistol optic classes. Our biggest issue seems to be iron sights coming loose/falling off and optics coming loose. When mounted the correct (or somewhat close to correct) way both the optics and sights seem to work great. We’ve seen some screws shear, but no optics have come flying off the student’s guns yet (we’ve had that happen as instructors evaluated the concept over the past several years). We’ve lost a few front sights, have had rear sights slide almost out of the dovetail (I think we caught all three of those before they came off the gun), and have had one Trijicon RMR come DOA out of the box. During our evaluations we’ve had Leopold DeltaPoint Pros die in the first 500 - 2,000 rounds and one is at 50,000 plus rounds. It works but the lens is cracked (happened around 18,000 rounds) and the “shake awake” feature no longer works and it has to be turned on manually. I think that guy has finally broken down and he’s sending it in for warranty.

We tested the Trijicon SRO to 10,000 rounds with a drop test and it’s now approved. We are 7,000 rounds into testing the new version DeltaPoint Pro and it’s doing well. I mounted the Holosun for T&E but we’ve yet to fire a round. I’m hoping to complete testing of the DPP and Holosun as well as Blackhawk and US Duty Gear duty holsters within the next two months. This is important because we have a bunch of information from our first six months of this program. We tracked scores in our certification classes and we’re requiring all participants (100 or so) to shoot an identical course of fire between July 1 and the end of August to see how the scores compare over a span of up to six months.

We have also been sending out surveys to get information from field use of the pistol optics and we will have a total of five surveys sent by the end of the program. Once the last surveys are received and everyone has shot the course of fire, we’ll be putting together the companion report to the one that we used to present (and receive authorization) to start the optic program. That report will support our recommendation (which will not be finalized until all the data and information is evaluated) as to whether we will continue to require a challenging course prerequisite or open up the program to a wider group of our personnel.

All this to say that especially when it comes to law enforcement use of pistol optics (I’m a believer as an individual, but to convince the leadership we often need more support for our proposals), we need more data points. We need more information and we need to stub our toes enough to really develop the best practices to Make this technology work. I really like these threads because they give us more information to focus efforts and market demands on things like better mounting systems and methods, as well as all the other things we discuss in this forum.

[GJM]

There are some things that are unresolved in my mind, and I would like to see testing on.

1) are metal guns harder on optics than polymer guns.

2) is an optic in a direct milled tight pocket more reliable or less. I used to believe a tight pocket supported the optic and made it more reliable but recently someone with lots of exposure commented that he believed a plate provides cushion and makes an optic last longer.

3) would an Acro style mounting arrangement be better than alternatives.

4) is the CHPWS plate significantly better than a MOS plate properly loctited and torqued.

[SoCalDep]

There are some things that are unresolved in my mind, and I would like to see testing on.

1) are metal guns harder on optics than polymer guns.

2) is an optic in a direct milled tight pocket more reliable or less. I used to believe a tight pocket supported the optic and made it more reliable but recently someone with lots of exposure commented that he believed a plate provides cushion and makes an optic last longer.

3) would an Acro style mounting arrangement be better than alternatives.

4) is the CHPWS plate significantly better than a MOS plate properly loctited and torqued.

As to #1, I agree that I’m unresolved. intuitively I’d say they are probably harder all else being equal, but when one considers mounting variances, recoil springs as well as the various springs, angles, and mechanical theatrics involved in a pistol’s cycle of operation (a 1911 depends on hammer spring weight, recoil spring type and weight, firing pin stop angle, correct link length and avoidance of barrel bump, proper lubrication and more to determine proper timing). Add an optic and one might think a stock Glock is more durable but other factors could be a major influence. I don’t have nearly enough time on non-polymer (ie: metal) optic guns to form an opinion. Once my slide comes back from LTT I will make an enthusiastic effort!

For #2... Not an expert, but I am skeptical of this one despite having communicated with a person who is an advocate. As I mentioned in my post above, I’ve seen far more issues of mounting problems resulting in loose/shearing screws than I have of optics breaking. While one particular optic seems to like to break a lot (and hopefully the improved version will break less), most optics seem very reliable and durable. To use a mount that encourages “cushioning”, which in my mind means movement against the mounting screws, as a way to increase the lifespan of the optic is making the known bad worse for the theoretical improvement in the thing that is less likely to fail in the beginning. That said, I’m no expert. I did manage to mess up a polymer plate really well though in testing the SRO and I would without a doubt recommend a metal plate based on my experience (which involved non-human level round counts in short times so is less than applicable to real life.).

For #3, I think you’re onto a big question. A slide milled specifically for a cross-bolt type of mount a-la ACRO has a lot going for it. Otherwise you’re dealing with a plate system and I’ve seen those fail with ACROs. It’s not the ACROs fault but I know one guy who’s on plate number 3 and I witnessed number 2 fail in less than 2,000 rounds. My ACRO is mounted on a G45 with a Tango-Down plate and it’s several thousand rounds in with very positive results so far, so again, I think the mounting methods and adaptor plates (in the case of the Glock especially) may have a lot to do with it.

#4 - Ugh. I wish I could say for sure. I know some people who’ve had CHPWS screws shear. I know more people who have had MOS plates shear, but there is a “per capita” issue there. I bought a CHPWS for my most recent optic pistol purchase (a G17g5 MOS with an SRO), and I’m now creeping past 1,000 rounds on it. Hardly a solid bit of information. Our T&E Holoson is mounted to a G17g5 MOS with the CHPWS plate and that will get 10,000 rounds plus, so that will be something, but I do think the jury is still out on this one. Again all that said, I like the fit and modularity ( a sheared screw may be more easily fixed with a replacement parts set (Including those really smart T-nuts) readily available (and available in advance) from CHPWS.

I also have a Forward Controls Design OPF-G RMR on my carry G19g4 MOS with an RMR and it’s run great. It replaced the MOS plate that came loose (though we hadn’t solidified on our current mounting practices) and so far on a very limited (less than 500 rounds prior to being cleaned and somewhat dedicated to carry) basis it has been solid.

We ran nearly 10,000 documented rounds through my type-1 RMR mounted on a G17g4 MOS with almost no optic experience (between Sept 2017 and around April 2019) using the stock MOS mount and had no issues, including using the same screws to replace the battery two times. The MOS can work. Are failures a result of a mounting procedure issue?... parts incompatibility (included RMR screws too long)?... or is it a design failure that makes the MOS more susceptible to issues?

I’m not sure... But the more people who provide input the better we’ll be able to start formulating answers and best practices.

[Archer1440]

Great information, Erick. After three years of working with RDS on my pistols, I will be repeating my 499 class with an RMR on a VP9 this fall. Ran the same in a 4 day class with Larry Mudgett, which did a ton to improve my accuracy and trigger manipulation.

Any insight on pitfalls I might run into over the week? Have concerns over the little stunt the instructors like to pull on about day three when they mess with your pistol with your back turned and then you have to solve the problem. I just might carry a second rig in AIWB. ;)

[JSGlock34]

#4 - Ugh. I wish I could say for sure. I know some people who’ve had CHPWS screws shear. I know more people who have had MOS plates shear, but there is a “per capita” issue there. I bought a CHPWS for my most recent optic pistol purchase (a G17g5 MOS with an SRO), and I’m now creeping past 1,000 rounds on it. Hardly a solid bit of information. Our T&E Holoson is mounted to a G17g5 MOS with the CHPWS plate and that will get 10,000 rounds plus, so that will be something, but I do think the jury is still out on this one. Again all that said, I like the fit and modularity ( a sheared screw may be more easily fixed with a replacement parts set (Including those really smart T-nuts) readily available (and available in advance) from CHPWS.

I also have a Forward Controls Design OPF-G RMR on my carry G19g4 MOS with an RMR and it’s run great. It replaced the MOS plate that came loose (though we hadn’t solidified on our current mounting practices) and so far on a very limited (less than 500 rounds prior to being cleaned and somewhat dedicated to carry) basis it has been solid.

I have both the CHPWS and FCD plates as well, and the designs each take a slightly different approach. The CHPWS design uses the threaded posts (or T-nuts in the GEN4) to increase thread engagement over the OEM plate. The tradeoff for the additional thread engagement seems to be using smaller screws to mount the optic. While both the CHPWS and FCD plates use tighter tolerances to lock in the optic, the FCD has ever so slightly tighter tolerances (you can't put a Holosun on a FCD plate for the RMR, for example) and a fence on both sides of the optic to prevent any forward or rearward movement. FCD seems to think that the OEM thread engagement on the MOS plate is sufficient, but the MOS plate makes no attempt to prevent movement of the optic other than the mounting screws.

I'm not terribly swayed one way or another by the use of steel in the FCD plate or aluminum in the CHWPS plate. The FCD plate is dimensionally identical to the OEM plate in terms of thickness, and you can use the OEM screws to secure the optic to the FCD plate. Both plates let you omit the Trijicon sealing plate.

I think either is an upgrade over the OEM plate. So far I've had no cause to complain about either.

[Erick Gelhaus]

There are some things that are unresolved in my mind, and I would like to see testing on.

1) are metal guns harder on optics than polymer guns.

2) is an optic in a direct milled tight pocket more reliable or less. I used to believe a tight pocket supported the optic and made it more reliable but recently someone with lots of exposure commented that he believed a plate provides cushion and makes an optic last longer.

3) would an Acro style mounting arrangement be better than alternatives.

4) is the CHPWS plate significantly better than a MOS plate properly loctited and torqued.

1) Between the LTT 92 and Chambers 1911 cuts now, we might get some broader-based info;
2) Leaning against your original hypothesis - between all of the Type 1 RMRs I broke and one broken Shield mini-red dot that all were direct mount;
3) Not enough info from others with Atei's Acro cut yet to offer thoughts, though I'm happy with mine;
4) Without a CORE or MOS cut slide, I can't offer an opinion.

SoCalDep -
Thank you. I'll have more info, insights, thoughts by this time next month.

[GJM]

1) Between the LTT 92 and Chambers 1911 cuts now, we might get some broader-based info;
2) Leaning against your original hypothesis - between all of the Type 1 RMRs I broke and one broken Shield mini-red dot that all were direct mount;
3) Not enough info from others with Atei's Acro cut yet to offer thoughts, though I'm happy with mine;
4) Without a CORE or MOS cut slide, I can't offer an opinion.

SoCalDep -
Thank you. I'll have more info, insights, thoughts by this time next month.

Not surprisingly, the direct mill shops are certain a custom pocket supports the optic better and provides better optic longevity. The plate guys are certain a plate provides give and provides better optic longevity.

Two summers ago, on PF, we thought the direct mill option was better for optics, but that was in part based on my DP Pro experience. As it turned out, the units I had on direct milled slides were from the reliable manufacture era, and that gutted that theory.

[Archer1440]

Not surprisingly, the direct mill shops are certain a custom pocket supports the optic better and provides better optic longevity. The plate guys are certain a plate provides give and provides better optic longevity.

Two summers ago, on PF, we thought the direct mill option was better for optics, but that was in part based on my DP Pro experience. As it turned out, the units I had on direct milled slides were from the reliable manufacture era, and that gutted that theory.

I spent three decades testing exactly this sort of thing for one of the world’s largest sporting goods manufacturers. A testing protocol could certainly be devised using accelerometers and strain gauges to definitively answer this question. I would think a company like Trijicon would have already done this internally, but since becoming an independent consultant, I have discovered that most companies, including those in firearms manufacture, are actually pretty limited as to test capabilities and protocols- not to mention imagination when it comes to this sort of thing.

The design of experiment would be pretty easy, but execution would take some logistical effort (and incur some cost) to be statistically significant.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Had only one PMO in this week's class - a Trijicon Type 2 w/3.5MOA dot anodized FDE.

Mid-day Tuesday the dot was gone & had ben replaced by a horizontal line. The emitter window was still there. Talked with the student about history Trij issues, including batteries. That night he changed the battery as well as cleaning the emitter window and the lens. Came back Wednesday and the optic was inoperative once on the line.

He already has an RMA from Trijicon.

[vcdgrips]

Based on your T/E, direct and anecdotal, is the ACRO the most durable red dot to date?

DB

[Erick Gelhaus]

Based on your T/E, direct and anecdotal, is the ACRO the most durable red dot to date?

DB

If this one is for me, yes. Albeit a sample of one.

I'm, at least, three thousand rounds into it - far, far longer than any other PMO I've had has lasted.

For a duty optic, the only knock I've legitimately encountered is the battery life - and that is the one thing I know has kept it from wider-spread adoption. Changed it out on the 1st of every month.

I'd imagine all of that would apply for the HD role as well.

CCW? Haven't carried it that way enough to get a feel for whether it has a printing problem or not.

[1Rangemaster]

Based on your T/E, direct and anecdotal, is the ACRO the most durable red dot to date?

DB

I can add that I have had an ACRO for over a year and a half. Several other instructors I work with have one also-no functional problems reported. With also around three thousand rounds, the only issue has been the mount, not the sight.
Two separate pistols, two loosened plates, caught before damage and remounted.
The battery life is a known issue; I change mine on the 15th of every month. From experience, it’s what I carry. I believe the whole red dot “life” means a little more complexity and attention to detail.

[vcdgrips]

Thank you both for your information.

DB

[GJM]

By way of perspective, there are a bunch of Carry Optics shooters I know shooting 3,000 rounds or more a month through their dots. I have 50,000 rounds through my small number of SRO optics, and have not had to return a single one to Trijicon. There are thousands of CO shooters putting many rounds thru the SRO each month. An issue with getting great data on the Acro, is since it is not an optic used by many competitors, the Aimpoint dots are just not getting the round counts put on the SRO and other competition optics. I have three Acro dots now, and would be surprised if I have 3,000 rounds thru the three combined.

[YVK]

I have three Acro dots now, and would be surprised if I have 3,000 rounds thru the three combined.

Aimpoint needs to sponsor a USPSA shooting team to get some real round counts through those ACROs. Maybe Wayne can put a word and get you to become a captain. You'd have to shoot ACRO in matches, but considering the perks like nice T-shirts with AP logo, a good supply of Renata batteries, and maybe an occasional trip to the HQ in Swedlandia, I think that would be a nice gig for you.

[UNM1136]

Aimpoint needs to sponsor a USPSA shooting team to get some real round counts through those ACROs. Maybe Wayne can put a word and get you to become a captain. You'd have to shoot ACRO in matches, but considering the perks like nice T-shirts with AP logo, a good supply of Renata batteries, and maybe an occasional trip to the HQ in Swedlandia, I think that would be a nice gig for you.

Quoted because I couldn't like it again.

Someone needs to pitch this, and SOMEONE needs to say yes...

pat

[Erick Gelhaus]

This past week I taught Gunsite’s second pistol mounted optic specific class, adapted from the #350 – Intermediate Defensive Pistol lesson plan. Round counts were 1200-1300 plus 40-50 rounds of frangible. Temps were in the high 90s to mid 100somethings.

59613

The pistols were:
Glock 19, 9mm, Housel/Unity Atom Mount, Holosun 407, with the SCD/Gadget;
Glock 34, 9mm, MOS, Holosun 507C;
Glock 22, .40SW, Atei milling, Type 2 RMR - issues;
Sig P320 Compact, 9mm, Atei milling, Type 2 RMR;
S&W M&P, 9mm, Agency AOS, Type 2 RMR;
STI 2011 Staccato Duo, SRO, - issues;
Sig P320 Compact, factory, Sig RomeoOne – issues;
Glock 19 comped, 9mm, direct mill, Type 2 RMR;
Glock 45, 9mm, MOS - C&H V4 plate, Type 2 RMR;
Grey Ghost Custom, 9mm, direct mount, Type 2 RMR – issues (replaced with a loaner Glock 19/ Unity slide/Leupold DPP/SCD-Gadget for two days of shooting);
Glock 19, 9mm, MOS, Leupold DPP, with the SCD/Gadget;

Sig P320 Compact, factory, Sig RomeoOne (not the OnePro) – by lunch Monday, the optic had loosened up to the point where the battery contact and power was lost. Until we could get him to the gunsmith, he shot with one of the instructor’s M&Ps.
Once the pistol was fixed, there were no more optic issues.

STI 2011 Staccato Duo, SRO – even with cleaning, de-greasing, thread locking (blue), and torqueing the mounting plate & optics screws, this one had the mounting plate screws come loose. And yet, the screws felt “too tight” to work with using only the correct tools. Out of concern about stripping heads, etc., there was a visit to the gunsmith. Heat was applied and ultimately everything loosened up. The plate and optic were re-assembled, and the shooter finished the week without any more mechanical issues.
I’ve known this shooter for over thirty years. Aside from his L/E experience, he is a competent regional competitor. He has now expressed concerns about the current reliability, state of these systems.

Glock 22, .40SW, Atei, Type 2 RMR – had an odd issue. During a couple drills, blue painters’ tape was placed over the downrange lens in order to ensure shooters had both eyes open. When this was done to that specific RMR, the dot appeared to turn into a lateral red line, rather than a dot. Again, the tape was on the downrange side. Once removed, the dot re-appeared for the shooter. One instructor could see the dot while I saw the line and then, after shifting my head, the dot.

Grey Ghost Custom, 9mm, direct mount, Type 2 RMR – the screws came loose early on which resulted in the battery losing contact and the dot not getting power. The user fixed that. However, one screw then loosened and departed the slide. He sourced a replacement screw from another RMR mounted on a rifle. That screw was too long and bound up the action. A correct length screw was located, and the combination was used to finish out the class.
This shooter was using his own reloads and got a noticeable number of failures to fire/light firing pin strikes as well – of the rounds I checked, most (but not all) fired in my M&P. He also replaced his FP spring.

All of the PMO issues were related to mounting. No pure electronic or mechanical failures.

Instructors used a S&W M&P 4.25”, Atei, Aimpoint Acro; a S&W M&P 5” CORE Pro, Holosun 507C; and a Glock 17, MOS, Holosun. We demonstrated but did not reach anything like high round counts.
We also had a Simunitions Glock 17 with a Riton Optics red dot sight on an after-market dovetail mount; at most 25 NLTA rounds were fired through it.

[SoCalDep]

Thanks for the update! I really believe that mounting solutions are the next big tech advancement for the dot. We now have durability, enclosed emitters, and lots of reticle options. Now we need easy and reliable mounting.

We (my department) don’t have a huge experience with dots but we have over 100 personal certified and many of them have multiple guns/optics. By far the biggest issue is mounting procedures and/or issues with the mounting platform.

All that said, when mounted properly they seem to work great. For Glocks, I have lots of rounds through MOS plates, Tango Down ACRO plates, and now a C&H Precision plate for my G17 with SRO. My carry gun, a G19 with RMR (RM09), had the original MOS plate come loose from the slide. I can’t say I was experienced in mounting at that time but the replacement was a Forward Controls Design OPF-G and so far (not a lot of rounds) it’s held up well.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Taught a Gunsite 499 Advanced Pistol class this past week. 2 of the 9 students had PMOs.

- Glock 34, unk gen, 9mm, with Aimpoint Acro P1 - This is the first time I haven’t been the only Acro user in a class. Any issues that came up & were discussed had to do with a new user adapting to the equipment during a non-PMO centric class rather than the equipment;


- H&K VP-9L, 9mm, with Trij SRO – this student had issues with at least one magazine during the week, including rounds shifting around radically in a partially full magazine when dropped. There were a couple of occasions where the shooter noted the appearance of multiple dots in the SRO window, described as being at least two. This happened in the afternoon, on a west-facing range, with the sun to the south-west, and still fairly high in the sky (The Acro did not share this issue);


Of the instructors, my pistol (not the optic) had the only issue. While demonstrating a failure drill, I inadvertently ejected the magazine. Did an in-battery speed reload, ran the slide, and carried on.

[Archer1440]

Having had the privilege of looking through your ACRO in the class, I am confident that it is the way forward, especially as battery life improvements are made. Inevitably, sighting solutions like these will become the “new normal” just as they have been on long arms for years now.

Erick is right about HK 20-round mags for the P30/VP9 platform- they don’t like being dropped (for required speed reloads during exercises) with rounds in there, lest they look exactly like an infamous HK magazine ad of decades past. I quite literally had rounds completely turn around in the mag lips when subjected to that abuse.

I will also point out that the SRO multiple dot issue at certain sun angles became much less of an issue after about the 200th of Erick’s ceaseless attempts to get me to learn a proper index over the course of the week. I finally improved, despite my astonishingly thick skull and goldfish memory, solely due to his and the other instructors extraordinary patience with my incompetence.

Learning occurred!!

[karmapolice]

By way of perspective, there are a bunch of Carry Optics shooters I know shooting 3,000 rounds or more a month through their dots. I have 50,000 rounds through my small number of SRO optics, and have not had to return a single one to Trijicon. There are thousands of CO shooters putting many rounds thru the SRO each month. An issue with getting great data on the Acro, is since it is not an optic used by many competitors, the Aimpoint dots are just not getting the round counts put on the SRO and other competition optics. I have three Acro dots now, and would be surprised if I have 3,000 rounds thru the three combined.

Yep, I have put 30k + rounds through ACROs (majority on one) and probably 40k through RMRs (30k on one). RMR definitely has some advantages. I’ve done battery swaps, nothing died, I replaced screws on one and not the other. I just used good plates and screws. Majority all have been on MOS Glock guns. I did have a milled 19 with RMR back in 15-16. My only non MOS gun is. Long Beach Operator with an RMR from the factory (RSR exclusive). I like RMR, don’t mind the acro. I’m not full on anti holosun but man it’s hard for me to excited about them. I don’t like everything trijicon either. RM06 3.25 is probably the quintessential pistol dot to me still, RM09 I ain’t mad at but I’ve only got like 300 rounds of .45 through one so far.

[HCM]

If Erick doesn't mind I'm going to piggyback here till I can write a real AAR. I just finished my 3rd RDS class with Modern Samurai Project (@Asiajedi). Scott's instruction and student diagnostics were excellent as always but just wanted to provide some gear observations:

There were 20ish shooters (we lost a couple on day 2) with a mix of RMRs, SROs, Holosuns and SIG optics. It's a 2 day course with an official round count of 1,000, I've usually shot 800-ish "mas or menos.

There were no direct optics failures in this class or the two prior classes. Two shooters in this class had optics come loose due to mounting issues: a factory optics ready CZ P-10 with an SRO and a 5' Ported PC S&W M&P Core 9mm with a Holosun. The S&W issue was with the CORE mount but the shooter (a USPSA competitor and high volume shooter) said he has had the same issue with the C&H plate on his identical back up gun.

This class I ran a SIG P320 Carry with a factory mounted Romeo1 PRO instead of my usual Glock for familiarization purposes since 320s and the Romeo1 PRO are issued / authorized equipment at work. I had no mechanical issues with the gun or optic. I did however experience two shooter / grip induced stoppages when the base of my thumb inadvertently activated the slide lock in mid string / with rounds in the mag. These were the 5th and 6th such issues I've experienced with the 320 X grip.

There was one other shooter running a 320/M17 Bravo with an RMR on an adaptor plate and one shooter who ran the whole course with a P365XL with a factory mounted Romeo Zero. No issues.

There were several (5-6?) shooters running 2011's, one Triarc, the rest recent STI/Stacattos, one XC model and the rest P Duos. All were running RMRs or SROs. One of the DUO shooters had both a P DUO and a C DUO (the single stack) and switched between the two. One thing I noticed was a couple of the 2011 shooters had their grip safeties taped or rubber banded down. This is heresy because everybody knows in Texas you may only deactivate your grip safety with a piece of raw hide.... Scott Jedlinski also ran an XC the first day - no issues. The other XC shooter had a few return to battery issues the second day as the gun got dirty but they appeared to be related to running a lighter (8lb ?) recoil spring. No issues with the P DUOS or C DUO.

One shooter ran a 5" PPQ with and SRO and experienced failure to fire towards the end of day one.

Everyone else ran Glocks. The only Glock issue was caused by an aftermarket trigger. Shooter finished the class with a borrowed Glock.

Scott was gracious enough to allow me to shoot his RMR equipped LTT Beretta 92 after class. suffice to say, as a long time 92 fan it's going to cost me money.....

[GJM]

I am curious about the CORE issues, as the plate is just a filler, and the screws go from the optic into the CORE slide?

[HCM]

I am curious about the CORE issues, as the plate is just a filler, and the screws go from the optic into the CORE slide?

I'm not familiar with the CORE other than seeing JM Campbell run them.

The Shooter in question is a fairly high volume shooter who runs a local steel target company and shoots a pair of 5" ported M&P CORES in USPSA and steel challenge. Not sure what his mounting process is (torque, thread locker etc) but I can message him and ask.

I suspect both types of mounts (factory and C&H) coming loose is indicative of a flaw in his mounting process but we shall see.

[Archer1440]

File in the FWIW column- if you want to minimize issues with loose screws on PMO’s, Loctite QuickStix 248 is the answer. This comes in a tube rather like a large Chapstick tube and has about the same consistency, which means it stays put where you put it, doesn’t drip or run, and a little goes a long way. It won’t freeze your screws to the slide and it won’t leave a mess. It also sets up pretty fast, and the tube never dries out.

I find it is far superior to the Vibratite VC3, which is recommended by some plate makers, and better than fluid Loctite solutions out there, particularly on fine-pitch threads common on PMO’s.

I have been using the same tube for about 5 years now on various items, from AR’s and pistols to motorcycles and archery gear, and am completely satisfied with this product for this purpose. (If you want to see screws come loose, shoot an Olympic recurve- they make pistols look like a pillow, when it comes to vibration.)

https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-QuickStix-442-37684-Thread-Treatment/dp/B000132VH6

[Caballoflaco]

File in the FWIW column- if you want to minimize issues with loose screws on PMO’s, Loctite QuickStix 248 is the answer. This comes in a tube rather like a large Chapstick tube and has about the same consistency, which means it stays put where you put it, doesn’t drip or run, and a little goes a long way. It won’t freeze your screws to the slide and it won’t leave a mess. It also sets up pretty fast, and the tube never dries out.

I find it is far superior to the Vibratite VC3, which is recommended by some plate makers, and better than fluid Loctite solutions out there, particularly on fine-pitch threads common on PMO’s.

I have been using the same tube for about 5 years now on various items, from AR’s and pistols to motorcycles and archery gear, and am completely satisfied with this product for this purpose. (If you want to see screws come loose, shoot an Olympic recurve- they make pistols look like a pillow, when it comes to vibration.)

https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-QuickStix-442-37684-Thread-Treatment/dp/B000132VH6

Thats the exact same solution I came to for pistol dots and solving the constantly loosening grub screws on my gillo riser I use for barebow. Btw I don’t know of anything that’s as good of a test for thread locker as string walking an ILF rig while shooting 6 gpp arrows.

For non archers this is another strong endorsement.

[Controlledpairs2]

STI 2011 Staccato Duo, SRO – even with cleaning, de-greasing, thread locking (blue), and torqueing the mounting plate & optics screws, this one had the mounting plate screws come loose. And yet, the screws felt “too tight” to work with using only the correct tools. Out of concern about stripping heads, etc., there was a visit to the gunsmith. Heat was applied and ultimately everything loosened up. The plate and optic were re-assembled, and the shooter finished the week without any more mechanical issues.
I’ve known this shooter for over thirty years. Aside from his L/E experience, he is a competent regional competitor. He has now expressed concerns about the current reliability, state of these systems.



May I ask what it is about that DUO system raises concerns? Or was he referring to the system of RDS/plates overall? Thanks!

[Eyesquared]

File in the FWIW column- if you want to minimize issues with loose screws on PMO’s, Loctite QuickStix 248 is the answer. This comes in a tube rather like a large Chapstick tube and has about the same consistency, which means it stays put where you put it, doesn’t drip or run, and a little goes a long way. It won’t freeze your screws to the slide and it won’t leave a mess. It also sets up pretty fast, and the tube never dries out.

I find it is far superior to the Vibratite VC3, which is recommended by some plate makers, and better than fluid Loctite solutions out there, particularly on fine-pitch threads common on PMO’s.

I have been using the same tube for about 5 years now on various items, from AR’s and pistols to motorcycles and archery gear, and am completely satisfied with this product for this purpose. (If you want to see screws come loose, shoot an Olympic recurve- they make pistols look like a pillow, when it comes to vibration.)

https://www.amazon.com/Loctite-QuickStix-442-37684-Thread-Treatment/dp/B000132VH6

Thanks for the tip. I have been going crazy with the screws holding my SRO down backing out every 1k rounds, despite copious blue loctite and ample torque. Hopefully this will resolve my issue.

[Erick Gelhaus]

May I ask what it is about that DUO system raises concerns? Or was he referring to the system of RDS/plates overall? Thanks!

"I’ve known this shooter for over thirty years. Aside from his L/E experience, he is a competent regional competitor. He has now expressed concerns about the current reliability, state of these systems."

He has concerns about the entirity of all these systems, not just the Duo.

[Controlledpairs2]

"I’ve known this shooter for over thirty years. Aside from his L/E experience, he is a competent regional competitor. He has now expressed concerns about the current reliability, state of these systems."

He has concerns about the entirity of all these systems, not just the Duo.

Thanks for the timely response. This thread is great and I appreciate all the data and shared experiences.

[Erick Gelhaus]

On Monday & Tuesday (3/1 and 3/2), I taught a two-day pistol mounted optics instructor class for instructors from six New England L/E agencies – state police firearms training unit and SWAT team, the state’s other (city) police academy, and PDs.

Day #1 was a wet cold in the 30s, while day #2 was a dry cold that started at 14F (“RealFeel” of 2F) and made it to 32F by the time we were done.

I’ll apologize as I didn’t take the notes I usually do in a 3-5 day class.

The only Aimpoint Acro on the line was mine, despite Aimpoint being present to support the class & answer questions the first day.

No mechanical or electrical issues with the optics caused a student to lose training time. One aftermarket “custom” Glock had regular feeding, cycling problems. A lot of them!

My best recollection of the guns/optics used include:
Glock G45 / Holosun 507;
Glock G45 / RMR;
Glock G45 / RMR (for one day) and Beretta LLT 92 / RMR (for the other);
Glock G19 / Leupold DPP;
“custom” Glock G17 / RMR (this is the problem gun);
Canik TP9 / Burris red dot;
Glock G17/19s / RMRs (8 total);

I wasn’t sure what the Canik/Burris combo would do, but it made through the two days and 550-600 rounds without issue.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Update:


One aftermarket “custom” Glock had regular feeding, cycling problems. A lot of them!

This student called me yesterday. He determined the training magazines he was using had thousands of rounds through and the mag springs were significantly weaker than when new. He'll be replacing those springs.

[SoCalDep]

This is a great thread! Thanks Erick for starting it and keeping it going!

My department authorized pistol-mounted optics in January of last year. We've run a bunch of courses and I tracked all reported gun/ammo combos used during the first six months, though we now have around 200 personnel using pistol optics, this information does not include all of those people and does not include members of our Special Weapons Team or Weapons Training Unit, which had a bunch of pistols and optics.

We had 110 guns tracked which included the following:

34 M&P 9mm M2.0 CORE
35 Glock MOS
33 STI/Stacatto Duo pistols
7 Sigs (A few Classic series optic guns and some P365XLs)
1 Wilson Combat 1911 (with an ACRO)

Optics included:

74 RMRs
13 SROs
6 ACROs
1 Sig Romeo 1PRO
5 Sig Romeo Zeros
11 Holosuns

The following issues were reported in the field across all optics (I don't have the breakdown yet- haven't gotten that far in the report):

3 batteries died (at least one was an RMR and I think one was an ACRO).
9 optics lost zero, came loose, or stripped or sheared one or more screws. In each instance it was determined that improper mounting was the cause.
3 optics experienced some level of window occlusion, though none were significant enough to prevent aquisition of the dot.
3 Iron sights came loose or were lost.

While we didn't track issues during training (we should have), we had more problems with Glock iron sights coming loose than we had with optics coming loose across all platforms.


After reading this thread (again), I realized it would be a good idea to continue tracking gun/optic combos and potential problems, so I collected information from our last pistol optic class and a private contract class I taught for multiple law enforcement agencies this past weekend. Here's a summary of that information:

Earlier this month we held a department pistol optic class (2-day, ~1,200 rounds) that was attended by several members of my department as well as two outside local law enforcement agencies, a federal law enforcement agency, and an active duty Army guy.

Pistols/optics used were as follows:

M&P CORE 5"/ RMR
Staccato/ SRO
Staccato/ DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato/ SRO
Glock (Agency)/ RMR
Glock/ Holosun 508T
Beretta 92 Compact LTT/ Holosun 507C
Glock/ DeltaPoint Pro
Glock/ RMR
Glock 34/ RMR
Staccato/ DeltaPoint Pro
M&P CORE 5"/ Holosun 508T

There were no significant issues with any of the student's firearms. There were a few malfunctions in dry Staccatos on day 2 but nothing that wasn't rectified with a few drops of oil. Two optic issues occurred: The LTT plate to slide screws on the Beretta came loose half way through day 2. The optic was re-mounted and the student finished the class with no issues. One student's Holosun 508T-G started to malfunction on day 2. He'd draw and the optic would be "off". He'd have to hit the button to turn it back on and sometimes that took multiple attempts. We tried a new Duracell battery and ensured his optic was on manual and not automatic and the problem continued to plague him throughout the second day. Holosun is near us so he planned to go in and discuss the warantee issue with them.

The biggest gun issues were my two Glocks (17 and 34 - both Gen 5) which experienced several malfunctions each. Apparently several months and many thousands of rounds without cleaning or lube makes for issues. I'm not used to that because my M&Ps and my earlier gen Glocks could just about go forever without any cleaning or maintenance. I think the issue might have been compounded by the use of our previous low-lead ammo that left a lot of primer sealant residue and unburnt powder/other particulates and our new practice ammo that leaves less particulate but more carbon buildup and residue. I wiped them down and added some oil and they've been running like normal ever since.



This past weekend I, along with two other instructors, taught a private contract pistol-optic course (2-day, ~800-900 rounds) for multiple CA law enforcement agency personnel (at least five or six different local police departments) in another part of the state.

Pistols/Optics used were as follows:

Staccato/Holosun 507C
Staccato/Holosun 507C
Sig P320/Romeo 1Pro
Glock/RMR
Glock/RMR Auto Adjust
Glock/Vortex Venom
Glock/Holosun 507C
Sig P320/Romeo 1Pro
Glock/Holosun 508T
Staccato/RMR
Glock (Aftermarket frame, slide and barrel)/ Bushnell AR Optics First Strike 2.0
Glock 43X/Holosun 507K (Day 1) and Staccato/Holosun 508T (Day 2)
Staccato/Holosun 508T
Sig P320/Romeo 1Pro
Sig P320/DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato/DeltaPoint Pro
Glock/Shield RMS
Glock/Holosun 508T
Sig P320/Romeo 1Pro
Sig P320/Romeo 1Pro
Glock/DeltaPoint Pro

Instructors (Day 1 - - - Day 2)
M&P CORE 9mm/SRO - - - M&P CORE/Holosun 508T-G
Glock 34MOS/SRO - - - M&P CORE/Holosun 508T
Glock 17MOS/SRO - - - Glock 17 - Unity ATOM slide/Aimpoint ACRO

There weren't many firearm related issues at all. The few malfunctions I saw seemed to be bad rounds, but I did notice that several students who (after being warned - habits are hard to break) racked the slide by manipulating the optic induced more complex malfunctions by blocking the ejection port with their hand. This is something we discovered recently because we teach not to manipulate the optic unless necessary.

It wasn't until several recruits from a participating agency came to our academy having had prior training with their department, where they were taught to manipulate the optic. We saw lots of malfunctions and simple malfunctions turned into complex malfunctions because of this technique.

One Glock had several malfunctions due to worn mags (he recently added extensions to old magazines with the same springs) - all other mags worked fine.

One Glock had a Kagwerks slide release and I'm not sure it was that or his snazzy red baseplate extendo-mags, but his slide did not lock to the rear when he was pushing hard.

The Staccatos ran like mad - I was impressed considering I've seen them really start to have issues if they get dry. I don't think I saw one malfunction.

Optic Issues:

The Vortex Venom ejected its window from the optic during the last drill on day 1. He'll be dealing with warranty service for that.

One Romeo 1Pro's dot turned off and wouldn't turn back on. I was working with the student and could see she was "fishing" for the dot so I told her to find the front sight and align the iron sights. I saw her to continue to struggle so I asked if she could see a dot with the irons aligned. She said "no" so I asked to see her pistol and confirmed there was no dot. I hit each button several times and still no dot. I unloaded the pistol and after locking the slide to the rear I looked and the dot was back. We checked the battery cap and it was tight. The optic worked the rest of the day without failure. This is a bit interesting because the same thing happened to me during a Sig red dot instructor class back in Sept 2018 with a Romeo 1... I smacked the optic and the dot turned back on.

The Bushnell started randomly turning off during the second half of day 2. The owner will be replacing it with something else.

The auto adjust RMR and Shield RMS worked well in light and dark conditions but both shooters did not like how they performed with WMLs (to be expected).

I was able to look at a Glock 43X up close for the first time and noticed that the threaded portion on the right side of the optic cut in the slide opens into the extractor plunger tube (not sure if correct term). This adds some mounting complexity in that this particular officer had filed away the rear bosses and filed down the front bosses to accomodate a Holosun 507K (this wasn't the one shooting the gun - he was asking about mounting screws on day 2 because he didn't have any of the right length). A screw too long could impede proper extractor function and prevent proper tightening, and excess threadlocker could also affect extractor function. Agencies and users should ensure they're using the proper length screws, be wary of people modifying their own guns, and be careful with the use of threadlocker (one of the reasons I really like Loctite 248).

This week we're running a firearm instructor school and I know several of the students will have optics. The following week we'll be running another optic class so I'll try to record those combos as well and report on their performance.

[Erick Gelhaus]

My department authorized pistol-mounted optics in January of last year.

SoCalDep - Thanks for the addition!

[AMC]

Damn....didnt know you were up here with Randy! Sorry I missed you guys. One of our SWAT guys told me your partner was at our neighbor to the south teaching. It was my kids birthday, so I wasn't able to break away to give him a call. Will be doing that in the next few days to discuss Swiss Pistol issues....

[SoCalDep]

Damn....didnt know you were up here with Randy! Sorry I missed you guys. One of our SWAT guys told me your partner was at our neighbor to the south teaching. It was my kids birthday, so I wasn't able to break away to give him a call. Will be doing that in the next few days to discuss Swiss Pistol issues....

Sorry I missed you as well. It was a really quick trip... took off after work on Thursday, taught Friday and Saturday, and burned it back Saturday evening. We’ll be back in the next few months though.

[SoCalDep]

This past week we ran a 40-hr Firearm Instructor School (five days, ~700 pistol rounds) with fifteen students from seven Southern California local law enforcement agencies and one state agency.

Pistols/Optics used were as follows:

Glock 19/ RMR Dual-Illuminated
Sig P320/ Iron sights
M&P 2.0 CORE 5"/ Holosun 508T
M&P 1.0 .40/ Iron sights
M&P 2.0 CORE 4.25"/ RMR (manual adjust)
M&P 2.0/ Iron sights
Sig P226 Legion/Iron sights (day #1) and Sig Romeo 1PRO (mounted and zeroed for day #2 on...)
Glock 34/ Iron sights
Glock 22/ Iron sights (day #1) and a borrowed milled G22 slide with Holosun 407C for day #2 on...)
Glock/ RMR (manual adjust)
M&P 2.0 CORE Pro Series/ RMR (manual adjust)
HK VP9/ Iron sights
Sig P320/ Sig Romeo 1PRO
M&P 2.0/ Iron sights
M&P 2.0 CORE/RMR (auto-adjust)

So, of the 15 students, 9 used an optic the majority of the time. There were no functional issues with any of the optics and the guns ran pretty well. There were a few bad rounds and at least one failure to extract (the M&P CORE Pro) but nothing that took a gun out of service. One guy who was trained to rack off the optic induced a couple more significant malfunctions trying to clear a bad round.

During low-light, the RMR dual-illumination was useless when a weapon-light was in use. The shooter reverted to irons for all courses of fire except those that involved no weapon-mounted lights and when doing that he reported that the dim dot slowed him down. I'm not a fan of those models for serious use. A couple of shooters were unaware that the RMR reverts to auto-adjust after 16 hours so they got to experience that and didn't like it when using a WML.

The shooter who borrowed the G22 slide had no experience with pistol optics prior to the class but was enthusiastic about trying it, partly for his own experience and partly because his department is looking at optics right now. He shot very well for never having used a dot and he's definitely embraced the "dot life".

[SoCalDep]

Last week we did another two-day pistol-optic certification class (~1,000 pistol rounds) with ten students from three Southern California local law enforcement agencies.

Pistols/Optics used were as follows:

Glock 34MOS (Gen4)/ Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato Duo/ DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato Duo/ DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato Duo/ DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato Duo/ DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato Duo/ RMR (Manual adjust)
Glock 19MOS (Gen5)/ SRO
M&P 2.0 CORE 9mm/ Sig Romeo 1Pro
M&P 2.0 CORE 9mm/ RMR (Manual adjust)
M&P 2.0 CORE 9mm/ Holosun 508T


Most of the guns/optic ran well with two exceptions. The student with the Staccato/RMR experienced rapid dimming and then return to brightness early in day 2. At first I thought it might be that the RMR had reverted to auto-adjust but after ensuring that wasn't the issue and seeing the problem for myself I told him we better try a new battery (he was using the factory-provided Energizer). When I went to remove the optic I found that all four screws (optic-plate and plate-slide) were loose. He had installed the optic using Vibra-Tite VC-3 and had not degreased the surfaces (there was plenty of visible oil). We reinstalled the optic with a new Duracell battery and he ran the rest of the day with no problems... well... no problems with the optic. The pistol had a number of failure-to-extract malfunctions. It started with the practice ammunition we use (Winchester 115gr white box) and continued when we switched to our other practice ammo (Speer CleanFire 124gr). We switched him to duty ammo (Federal 147gr HST) and the malfunctions almost went away but not entirely. The pistol was cleaned prior to the class and properly lubricated. He's going to have our armorer (he knows and builds 1911s) look at it.

One of the DeltaPoint Pros came loose on a Staccato on day #1. We re-installed it and it came loose again on day #2. At the end of the day the student noticed the indicator markings had moved again. He mentioned that he was informed (no confirmation) some DeltaPoint Pro screws may be too soft, and coupled with the Leupold torque spec of 25 in/lbs may be reaching plastic deformation/yield strength. In addition, there wasn't time for the loctite to cure since it was installed (twice) as the class was going. He's going to wait to re-install the optic until replacement screws arrive.

I'm happy with the aftermarket screws for the other optics that we've sourced but I haven't been able to find any that would work with the Leupold where I think the holes in the optic are larger than the threads into the plate/slide. I also think 25 in/lbs is probably excessive. When we tested the the DeltaPoint Pro we used 12 and then 15 in/lbs on the S&W CORE because their screws didn't have a torque spec listed.

The metal optic plates being supplied with new M&P CORE pistols (I saw two sets in the class this week) are the old style 1.925" plates, so they leave 0.05" more space at the front of the optic cut compared to the plastic plates and current C&H 1.975" plates. They fit VERY snug against the two cylindrical bosses in the slide and my jury is still out but I think they'll be an improvement over the plastic plate.

Unrelated to the class we had an instructor who's Holosun 508T had come loose a couple weeks ago on his S&W CORE with the plastic plate. The left boss on the plate had been peened. I'm no fan of plastic plates and am happy to see new COREs are coming with metal plates again, though I don't know if this is across the board. He had ordered a plate from C&H Precision which arrived this week. I went to install it on Thursday and discovered machined "ribs" on the bottom of the plate that prevented the plate from being able to sit flush, and it sat slightly off center front/back. If the ribs were'nt holding it slightly off the flat of the slide I think we would have seen the plate angled up against the rear boss in the slide. He called C&H and they said that wasn't normal and he should send it back for a replacement.

Summary: I think we've come a long way in developing mounting methods that cover a wide range of optic/gun combinations with good results, but we still don't have all the answers.

[SoCalDep]

Last week we did another two-day pistol-optic certification class (~1,000 pistol rounds) with seven students from three local agencies and one Federal agency.
Pistols/Optics used were as follows:

Staccato Duo/DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato Duo/DeltaPoint Pro
Glock 19MOS (Gen5)/ RMRcc
M&P 2.0 CORE/ Holosun 507C
M&P 2.0 CORE/ Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Glock 34 (Gen5)/ RMR (Manual Adjust)
Glock 47/ RMR (Manual Adjust)

The guns all ran well. A DeltaPoint Pro came loose on a Staccato again. We had mounted it with 15in/lbs of torque to see if that might help after the issues we've seen recently (Not flying blind - S&W specs 15in/lbs to mount the DPP to the CORE using their screws). It didn't and the optic came loose after a couple hundred rounds (at most). We re-mounted and torqued to 20in/lbs and it was coming loose again by the end of the day. The user swapped with new screws sent to his Agency by Leupold and re-mounted the evening of day 1 with 25in/lbs of torque. On the morning of day 2 we zeroed with duty ammunition and the class progressed. Following the warmup (lots of 2" dots at 4 and 7 yards) and a "Super Test", the user noticed all of his shots were hitting pretty significantly left. I shot his Staccato and it was indeed shooting between 2" and 3" left at 10 yards. In addition, the dot was not in the same place where it was when he "co-witnessed" in the morning following zeroing. We checked the screws and they were still tight, and we couldn't perceive any movement in the optic. We re-zeroed, checked the co-witness with the irons and continued. Later in the day he noticed the dot had slightly shifted again though not as much. The optic was still tight. I think he's going to contact Leupold for warranty service.

Following day 1, the person using the Glock 34 with RMR noticed the indicator markings had moved on his gun. He let us know on the morning of day #2. I couldn't perceive any movement in the optic on the slide, but when I turned the screw it moved easily and was certainly coming loose. It was mounted with a C&H Precision V4 metal plate and whoever mounted it (it was a borrowed gun from another person at his department) had used Vibratite VC-3. There wasn't a ton of it all over like the prior week's class, but there was enough around the tapered head of the screw and corresponding surface of the plate that I suspect it was likely the culpret because otherwise, mounting appeared to have been done well. I cleaned the VC-3 off with alcohol wipes and toothpicks and re-mounted using Loctite 248. It held for the rest of day 2. I picked up several replacement screw/t-nut sets from C&H but they were at home. I recommend anyone using one get at least a couple extra sets as well in case it comes loose, since the screws aren't the standard CORE/MOS type. In this case I would have replaced the screws and probably also the t-nuts just to be safe, but luckily the user caught the loose screw before the optic really had a chance to move around so they probably didn't receive too much excess force.

[Adam]

Thea updates are great. I’m “dot curious” and beginning to play with them more and more but the expectation that you’re just going to throw a dot on and live happily ever after seems to definitely not be the case.

[SoCalDep]

Been a little behind in updating stuff.

A couple weeks ago we did a 1911 certification class (includes 2011 pistols). This is also a 16hr (two day) course with the first half of the first day in the classroom dealing with cleaning, inspection, lubrication, and function checks - along with understanding how a 1911 works, and how it doesn't. Total round count for the class is probably around 600-700 rounds depending on whether one is using a single or double stack.

This class was an interesting first in that of the eight students, six had optics on their pistols (meaning they'd already taken the 16hr pistol optic course for the department).

Pistols and optics used were as follows:

Springfield Operator .45 (factory optic ready - UNICORN!!!) / RMR (manual)
Citadel (Rock Island Armory produced so I'm told) / iron sights (This guy was a retired firearm instructor and reserve with a non-authorized handgun he was using for fun. He will not be using it on duty, but it provided some interesting information...
Staccato / DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato / Irons
Staccato / RMR (manual)
Staccato / Holosun 507C
Staccato / Holosun 507C
Staccato / Holosun 507C

As is usually the case, it was demonstrated in the class that on a 1911, everything affects everything else. The Citadel was running 100% for it's lefty shooter until lunch on day #2. Just before we broke he noticed the extended slide stop lever had broken off. At lunch he cleaned and lubricated his pistol and switched the slide stop for a standard (unknown brand/model) slide stop. Upon our return the pistol decided it needed to not extract about every two to four rounds. He field stripped and found a small burr on the slide stop. he stoned it (he's one of our armorers) and after reassembling it ran 100% for the rest of the day. I can't explain it... but it happenend.

We also had problems with the DeltaPoint Pro on the Staccato. I know this is starting to be old news, but there's something not cool going on in this setup. I can't tell if it's the optic, the gun, or the screws, but I'm leaning toward the latter. At some point (I can't remember exactly when) a screw came loose and we reinstalled. It ran fine the rest of the day.

One thing I'm going to start trying to take note of is which screw is coming loose. If my memory serves, this one (as well as another in a post to follow) was the left screw that came loose first.

As for the guns, the Springfield ran great and most of the Staccatos did as well. There were a couple issues of magazines not locking to the rear and one gun that did have consistent problems with failures to extract (I think it's a simple extractor tensioning but that's something for the armorers/factory to address... not me) on practice ammo and while less frequently with duty ammo as well.

I know this is an optic thread, but a 2011 is still a 1911... It can be 100% but may not be without some attention.

[SoCalDep]

Last week was another pistol optic class. By now you know the deal... two days, around 1,000-1,200 rounds. We had students from three California local law enforcement agencies in attendance.

Pistols/optics used were as follows:

Staccato / DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato / DeltaPoint Pro
Sig P226 Legion (optic ready) / Sig Romeo 1Pro
Staccato / DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato / RMR (manual)
M&P 2.0 CORE / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 CORE / Holosun 508T-G
M&P 2.0 CORE / RMR (manual)
Glock 45 / RMR (manual)
Glock 45 / Holosun 507C
M&P 2.0 CORE / Holosun 407A*

*The student using the M&P/Holosun 407A was using a T&E handgun and the same optic that was used in our Holosun testing (used for 10,000+ rounds and dropped four times on concrete). We're using it as part of our testing as to whether McMaster-Carr stainless steel screws are acceptable for duty use. His purpose for attending the class was to carry a Sig P365XL off duty with a Sig RomeoZero optic.

As much as I would like to have all optics mounted well before the class to give the threadlocker time to cure, that's not always possible (nor does it always work, as we'll address later). One student needed a DeltaPoint Pro mounted on a Staccato on the morning of day #1. I did that using the mounting procedure that has been consistently successful with other platforms. By mid day the indicater marks showed the screws had moved. The left had moved more than the right. Since we don't have any DPP screws, I re-tightened and he completed the day.

We had one of the M&P CORE pistols with a holosun 508T come loose on day #1 as well. This one had been mounted by one of us four days prior to the class using our procedures. He was using one of the C&H Precision plates, and when I removed the optic I noticed some beveled "wear" on the circle cutouts where it mates with the raised bosses in the CORE slide cut. I thought the "wear" was due to movement of the optic and was pretty concerned about re-mounting with the plate, but turns out it's maybe not a problem... more on that later. Another weird thing about this situation with the CORE/Holosun... We discovered it was loose when the student asked me to switch his battery to a Duracell. The indicator marks hadn't moved at all but the optic was clearly loose. I didn't mount it so I can't say whether it wasn't torqued all the way or if something else contributed to it coming loose, but the screws hadn't turned. I can't explain it except to suspect it either wasn't torqued down enough (probably), or the screws failed, which after closely inspecting them I highly doubt.

I removed the optic and re-installed it with new screws and it ran fine the rest of the class.

On day #2 the Staccato/DPP came loose again after only a hundred rounds or so. I re-torqued to 25 in/lbs again and it ran fine to the end of the day - we checked the torque twice throughout and didn't notice any loosening, but the student was instructed not to use the pistol on duty and to request new screws from Leupold. We'll see how that goes.

The T&E pistol with the Holosun 407A and stainless screws completed a documented 1,100 rounds over the two days with no issues at all. It's still very early in the "endurance" testing, but I don't expect problems.

We zeroed two Sig P365XLs as well. One with a Holosun 507K and the other with that RomeZero. No problems zeroing but not a high round count either.

So regarding the C&H plates - The beveling I saw in the class was the first time I'd seen anything like it on one of their plates, but I had another deputy come in later in the week to have an optic mounted with a C&H plate and when I opened the sealed package it had the same beveling. So it seems like this is something done on purpose.

[VK01]

RE: Staccato




One thing I'm going to start trying to take note of is which screw is coming loose. If my memory serves, this one (as well as another in a post to follow) was the left screw that came loose first.



Long time reader, but finally signed up to reply to this tidbit. On (2) Staccato/DPP combos, I’ve found both LEFT screws loosened. I have I just got new DPP screws in and will try again with the Staccato suggested 25in/lbs. I’m glad it’s not just me, but makes me wonder.

[Adam]

So regarding the C&H plates - The beveling I saw in the class was the first time I'd seen anything like it on one of their plates, but I had another deputy come in later in the week to have an optic mounted with a C&H plate and when I opened the sealed package it had the same beveling. So it seems like this is something done on purpose.

Great info as always. RE: the C&H plates, I just received mine for my M&P and it too had some of the finish worn off around the holes that align with the bosses in the slide. I wonder if they were having mating issues or something. Either way, knock on wood, my C&H plate fits both the slide and my 507C very snugly.

[SoCalDep]

This past week we had another pistol optic class. This one was attended by members of one municipal LE agency from a bit South of us and they were all great shooters, many of them with little to no experience with pistol-optics. By the end all of them were shooting impressively.

Guns/ Optics used are as follows:

M&P 2.0 CORE/ Holosun 507C
Glock 45/ Holosun 507C
Glock 45/ Holosun 507C
M&P 2.0 CORE/ RMR manual
M&P 2.0 CORE/ Vortex Venom
Glock/ RMR manual
M&P 2.0 CORE/ Holosun 508T
Staccato/ RMR manual
Staccato/ DeltaPoint Pro
Glock/ RMR manual
M&P 2.0 CORE/ RMR manual
M&P 2.0 CORE 5"/ Holosun 507C

The guns and optics ran very well and I don't remember a single malfunction on the first day. On day 2 there were a few malfunctions with the dry/dirty Staccatos, most predominantly the common and frustrating failure to fully feed on a reload when the thumb placed pressure on the slide as it was released. I have a 4" 9mm 1911 and without significant deliberate pressure I can't impede the slide, but both my 5" 9mm guns did (notice past tense - they're gone). If I was running a Staccato, this stuff would concern me. I'd say that these guns almost require racking rather than using the slide release but I'm really not a fan of trying to train around a problem. For the guys in the class, the guns ran great most of the two days and most of the issues occured when reloading under pressure. Hmm...

The other interesting occurance involved a bad round. When the shooter attempted to tap and rack to clear the malfunction, he racked off the optic, blocking the ejection port. The round was prevented from fully ejecting, spun around, and reinserted itself backwards in the barrel. After additional attempts to clear the malfunction (he went into a "lock - rip - rack - reload") he had really pounded the round in there and ultimately the bullet had to be pulled with a multi-tool just in case and the cartridge had to be pounded out with a rod. This is not the first time I've seen this and I am NOT a fan of using the optic for manipulation with the exception of injured shooter situations, and there I think it's important to build techniques that avoid blocking the ejection port.

There were no issues with the optics in the course.

Later in the week I helped teach one of our in-service training classes. Of the eighteen students, one had a pistol-optic. He's a former recruit and really good with a handgun. Like scary good. We messed with him all day, occluding the front of his optic window for about an hour of the course, randomly turning his dot on and off, and forcing him to shoot at much smaller targets compared to everyone else. He was using an M&P 2.0 CORE 5" with an RMR manual model. He had no gun or optic issues. I know it's his talent and ability but watching him shoot makes me proud to have been a part of his training. It's refreshing.

[GJM]

How refreshing (and surprising) that you didn’t have a single mount or optic come loose during your training this time!

[Erick Gelhaus]

Last week, I taught a closed enrollment pistol-mounted optics-centric Gunsite 250 for an industry group of eleven. I applaud their boss for bringing his people to a class that is specific to their role, task. Round count – about 1000 each of ball and +/- 50 of frangible.

All but two shot Shadow System’s DR920s or MR920s all week, the others were a G17 and a G19. Every one of the optics was a Holosun 500 series – 507s, 508s, and 509s.

(One of Shadow System’s media people has been a student of mine previously, prior to him going to work for them. )

There was a mounting issue with one optic/pistol that revealed itself no later than day #2. We tell the students to run the slide like they’re trying to rip it off the back of the gun. Well, he damn near did that. Both mounting screws had loosened, the left-hand one completely. Both had indications of thread locker on them. Each had some indication of having stripped the lower threads. We re-mounted the optic, using new screws with thread locker on them. Aside from having to re-zero, no more issues.

One pistol/optic got knocked out of a holster and onto a concrete floor from waist height. The student wanted to re-zero; no other issues.

On the afternoon of day 4, another student had an interesting glitch with a 507C. Making ready, he verified he had the reticle he wanted (circle/dot) and at the desired brightness. On the “go” command, he drew and shot. After the first round of that string, the circle/dot was gone for him. I found it by over-exaggerating the downward rotation of the muzzle. What I saw was a large portion of a circle, say 11 to 1 o’clock, with just enough of a U where the dot would be. No pushing of either the + or – buttons changed it. About half the class could find what I saw, the other half could not. Had the student power it off, pull the battery, re-insert it, and power it back up. No issues after that.

Ammunition? The class was shooting Federal branded white box-like 115gr 9mm ball. Over the course of the week, with several, but not quite all of the pistols, it produced a bunch of spall or fragmentation on the targets – usually in the 3 to 5-yard range. Disconcerting, but not a showstopper. I’m not sure whose barrels Shadow Systems uses. There were also enough failures to fire across the class that it caught my attention.

All of the Shadow System pistols had magazine wells. The students were using a mix of OEM magazines and Magpul PMags. I did not see any stoppages that were attributable to either magazine. However, there were enough failures to fire, due to a lack of feeding a round, that we noticed it. More than a few magazines landed on the range during recoil. I can’t tell you if it was a student issue or a magazine or mag well dimension/tolerance issue.

I apologize for not diving deeper into these last two issues.

This was the largest number of Holosun optics I’ve seen in one setting. I’d have no problem buying them (well, I already have for my 4” P/C Shield). I wouldn’t walk away from the Shadow Systems’ pistols either. The slides are cut for both the Trijicon and Leupold footprints; though I’d be deliberate on magazine selection.

[AMC]

Last week, I taught a closed enrollment pistol-mounted optics-centric Gunsite 250 for an industry group of eleven. I applaud their boss for bringing his people to a class that is specific to their role, task. Round count – about 1000 each of ball and +/- 50 of frangible.

All but two shot Shadow System’s DR920s or MR920s all week, the others were a G17 and a G19. Every one of the optics was a Holosun 500 series – 507s, 508s, and 509s.

(One of Shadow System’s media people has been a student of mine previously, prior to him going to work for them. )

There was a mounting issue with one optic/pistol that revealed itself no later than day #2. We tell the students to run the slide like they’re trying to rip it off the back of the gun. Well, he damn near did that. Both mounting screws had loosened, the left-hand one completely. Both had indications of thread locker on them. Each had some indication of having stripped the lower threads. We re-mounted the optic, using new screws with thread locker on them. Aside from having to re-zero, no more issues.

One pistol/optic got knocked out of a holster and onto a concrete floor from waist height. The student wanted to re-zero; no other issues.

On the afternoon of day 4, another student had an interesting glitch with a 507C. Making ready, he verified he had the reticle he wanted (circle/dot) and at the desired brightness. On the “go” command, he drew and shot. After the first round of that string, the circle/dot was gone for him. I found it by over-exaggerating the downward rotation of the muzzle. What I saw was a large portion of a circle, say 11 to 1 o’clock, with just enough of a U where the dot would be. No pushing of either the + or – buttons changed it. About half the class could find what I saw, the other half could not. Had the student power it off, pull the battery, re-insert it, and power it back up. No issues after that.

Ammunition? The class was shooting Federal branded white box-like 115gr 9mm ball. Over the course of the week, with several, but not quite all of the pistols, it produced a bunch of spall or fragmentation on the targets – usually in the 3 to 5-yard range. Disconcerting, but not a showstopper. I’m not sure whose barrels Shadow Systems uses. There were also enough failures to fire across the class that it caught my attention.

All of the Shadow System pistols had magazine wells. The students were using a mix of OEM magazines and Magpul PMags. I did not see any stoppages that were attributable to either magazine. However, there were enough failures to fire, due to a lack of feeding a round, that we noticed it. More than a few magazines landed on the range during recoil. I can’t tell you if it was a student issue or a magazine or mag well dimension/tolerance issue.

I apologize for not diving deeper into these last two issues.

This was the largest number of Holosun optics I’ve seen in one setting. I’d have no problem buying them (well, I already have for my 4” P/C Shield). I wouldn’t walk away from the Shadow Systems’ pistols either. The slides are cut for both the Trijicon and Leupold footprints; though I’d be deliberate on magazine selection.

Thank you Erick, for this thread, and SoCalDep for jumping in and contributing. You guys are providing a lot of real world data for those of us still looking at the dot world from the outside in. Especially those of us looking at policies and practices for an LE agency Optics Program.

[GJM]

So what is your opinion -- is the red dot ready for general LE issue, or is still for those motivated to put the extra time into training and PM?

[SoCalDep]

So what is your opinion -- is the red dot ready for general LE issue, or is still for those motivated to put the extra time into training and PM?

I think it depends on a lot of factors to include the size of the agency and how much training, logistical support, and accountability can be established. Further, I'm aware of several law enforcement agencies that have had issues with operating conditions. This includes things like condensational fogging due to high humidity (Miami area) or extreme temperature shifts.

I was contacted by an Alaska State Trooper stationed in Fairbanks who was concerned about how the optic will perform going from -40 degree outside temperatures into a heated house on a domestic violence call. I can address part of those concerns, as I've simulated some extreme environments and temperature shifts to see what various pistol optics will do. Here in SoCal, I don't have the equipment to test an optic at -40 degrees. Duracell lists the minimum operating temperature of their 2032 batteries at -4 degrees fareinheit so things like how long the internal components of the optic will take to acclimate to the ambient temperature, or to a temperature that might affect operation are questions I can't answer. I've done experiments involving open and concealed carry and how carrying close to the body can affect optic performance in temperature shifts but I don't know how they (cops in extreme cold) carry their pistols, nor have I the ability to put myself in that environment to see what happens.

The more different people use optics the more we will learn. That may present perfrormance demands that drive development of better optics (enclosed emitters are rad for dealing with humidity and temperature issues) and general technology.

As much as we've gotten better and more reliable optics, and better and more reliable mounting methods, there is a failure rate for both, and I'm not sure we've reached the acceptable failure rate for many large departments that simply can't or won't hold their people accountable for ensuring their equipment is in proper condition and their skills and training have prepared them for the admittedly unlikely event a failure occurs.

So in short - No. I don't think pistol-optics are ready to take over in the same ubiquitous way that semi-auto pistols have replaced revolvers or rifle optics have largely replaced iron sights, but I think that day is coming, and the more agencies that start programs and the more popular pistol optics become in the competitive and self-defense world, the further the market will be driven to meet that demand.

[Lon]

So what is your opinion -- is the red dot ready for general LE issue, or is still for those motivated to put the extra time into training and PM?

From what I’ve seen so far - general issue is fine for academy cadets who start out using a RDO in the academy. For the cops who’ve been on the job for a while? Leave it to the motivated.

[Erick Gelhaus]

So what is your opinion -- is the red dot ready for general LE issue, or is still for those motivated to put the extra time into training and PM?

Currently, mostly based on mounting systems, I don't think we at the issue to everyone stage.

[WobblyPossum]

Currently, mostly based on mounting systems, I don't think we at the issue to everyone stage.

What do you think it would take to get mounting systems to the point you’d be comfortable with for general issue? Get rid of MOS-style plate systems completely and standardize on direct-mount, rail-style footprints like the Aimpoint ACRO?

[SoCalDep]

What do you think it would take to get mounting systems to the point you’d be comfortable with for general issue? Get rid of MOS-style plate systems completely and standardize on direct-mount, rail-style footprints like the Aimpoint ACRO?

My experience is limited, but in the several Aimpoint ACROs and 509Ts I’ve seen, none have come loose. The plates have come loose on some, but never the optic. In addition, my Unity ATOM slide (has a slide screw to retain the plates) has not come loose since I applied Loctite 248.

I think a standard milled mini “rail” with cross-bolt screws (is that the correct term?) may be a viable general-issue solution. Top load screws work, but are far from ideal.

[WobblyPossum]

My experience is limited, but in the several Aimpoint ACROs and 509Ts I’ve seen, none have come loose. The plates have come loose on some, but never the optic. In addition, my Unity ATOM slide (has a slide screw to retain the plates) has not come loose since I applied Loctite 248.

I think a standard milled mini “rail” with cross-bolt screws (is that the correct term?) may be a viable general-issue solution. Top load screws work, but are far from ideal.

I think the cross-bolt mounts onto mini rails are probably the next step in the standardization of everything. You can easily build an open-emitter optic that mounts using a cross-bolt. Building a closed-emitter optic that uses top load screws is a lot harder. I’m glad to hear you haven’t seen any of the cross-bolt optics come loose.

[Erick Gelhaus]

What do you think it would take to get mounting systems to the point you’d be comfortable with for general issue? Get rid of MOS-style plate systems completely and standardize on direct-mount, rail-style footprints like the Aimpoint ACRO?

SoCalDep probably said it better than I could have.

Cross-bolt, clamped inward mounts seem to be performing better than bolt down into mounting systems. Seem. I've got to qualify that because I haven't seen enough Acros and 509Ts yet in classes. The Acro, at least, gives the benefit of lower mounting too - if you consider how Atei is cutting the slide.

eta: I've three first gen Unity Atom mount slides (G17, G19, and a beta test 5" M&P). While I haven't been able to direct compare it to the AOS or Chambers, I'm very happy with it. I'm really looking forward to seeing their second gen mounts in the wild.

[SoCalDep]

As is typical, things have gotten in the way of having time for a detailed post, so this is more of a semi-monthly post as opposed to weekly. I’m on the eve of another two-day optic class, so we’ll see what’s in store in another post, but here’s June so far.

I was part of the staff teaching a standard in-service class early this month. There were two optics in the class. The 5” M&P CORE/RMR functioned perfectly but the Staccato with RMR had multiple (6-7) failure to extract malfunctions in a short period of time before returning to normal function for the last couple hundred rounds. I gave the guy a hundred rounds of duty ammunition and he had no malfunctions, but I recommended he consider having the pistol looked at.

A few days later we taught a two day pistol optic class to part of a large local department’s SWAT team. They were running Staccatos (9 of ‘em) with the exception of a single Glock shooter. All had RMRs. The Staccatos ran like Staccatos in that there were some malfunctions that were due to high round counts, high heat, and lack of cleaning/lube, and some malfunctions that indicate the guns need attention (1911s “can” be completely reliable... but often aren’t... we recommend one ensures that any issues are resolved prior to trusting the pistol for serious work).

Right after that class we held another optic class, but this one was small with only five students. Pistols and optics were as follows:

S&W Performance Center CORE / SRO. (This guy has been through the class and was repeating with a “fun gun”)
S&W M&P CORE 5” / Holosun 507C
Glock 17MOS / Holosun 507C
Glock 17MOS / Trijicon RMR Manual
Staccato / Trijicon SRO

There were several malfunctions with the Staccato - mostly the slide failing to lock to the rear (and confirmed not the fault of the shooter) and no other issues that I can recall.

Last weekend we held another private contract training class hosted by a Northern California Sheriff’s Department. I recently picked up a Holosun 407CO, and not having a Glock available I mounted it to my M&P 2.0 CORE. I shot a couple hundred rounds earlier in the week to zero and get familiar with the optic and pistol and used it during the class for demos. I’m SUPER happy with it (as long as I’m wearing my glasses or contacts) and look forward to using it more.

Pistols / Optics in the class were as follows:

M&P Pro CORE 2.0 / DeltaPoint Pro
Sig P320 / Romeo 1 Pro
M&P CORE / RMR manual
Glock 34MOS / RMR manual
Glock / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 CORE / RMR manual
Glock “C” model (17 I think) / Holosun 508T (old model)*
Glock 34MOS / Shield RMS
Sig P320 / Romeo 1 Pro
Sig M18 / Romeo 1 Pro
Glock / Holosun 507C
Sig P320 / Romeo 1 Pro
Glock 34 / RMR manual
Glock / Holosun 508T
Glock 34MOS / Holosun 507C
Glock / RMR manual
Sig P320 / Romeo 1 Pro
Sig P320 DeltaPoint Pro

The only functional issue was after the application of water on day #1, when the student using the “C” model Glock noticed the dot was distorted. We cleaned the window and emitter cover and the dot remained significantly distorted. I’m not sure exactly what happened but I’m guessing that there was some sort of water resistance failure and water got inside the area of the emitter. I felt bad but at the same time I’d rather it happen in training than on a rainy day.

The student swapped for another optic on day two and finished the class with no issues. Unfortunately I don’t remember what optic he switched to, but whatever it was, he ran it like mad... great shooter.

The shooter using the Shield optic noticed on day one that when we moved back to 25 yards (where it was dimmer lit compared to the target area) he had difficulty finding the dot and he noticed shifting brightness. I’m not a fan of auto adjust and this was a great example as to why. The low light block reaffirmed those issues.

[HCM]

I think the cross-bolt mounts onto mini rails are probably the next step in the standardization of everything. You can easily build an open-emitter optic that mounts using a cross-bolt. Building a closed-emitter optic that uses top load screws is a lot harder.

This ^^^.

[Caballoflaco]

This ^^^.

I’m hoping that when we get a large agency/gov contract specify a rail mounting system for dots we might finally get an industry standard like the 1913 has become for rifles.

My cynical side says it will end up being something made by sig that wont be compatible with either the 509t or acro mounting system.

[HCM]

I’m hoping that when we get a large agency/gov contract specify a rail mounting system for dots we might finally get an industry standard like the 1913 has become for rifles.

My cynical side says it will end up being something made by sig that wont be compatible with either the 509t or acro mounting system.

The MHS is as big as pistol purchases get and that specified the DPP footprint.

Your prediction is exactly what SIG did but not in the way you meant. SIG’s removable hood on the Romeo 2 not being a true closed emitter is likely an artifact of the impracticality of mixing closed emitter optics and top mounted screws as used in SIGs existing footprint. However they are on the wrong side of history on this.

[SoCalDep]

This post reports a “first” for me. A 509T came loose from it’s mount. Even worse, the indicator marks on the cross-bolt screw showed no movement. I’m making some inquiries into the cause but since it was a borrowed gun from another agency at the end of a two-day class I have pretty much zero information on what actually occurred right now.

The same optic showed a significant amount of distortion in the window... way worse than my two 509Ts. That distortion was compounded by very high suppressor sights that blocked nearly half the window. It reinforced my thoughts that low irons are the way to go. If you can see them they are good. If they block more than say 1/4 of the window they suck.

We advised the shooter to have the owner (borrowed gun) contact Holosun for warranty service.

So this was in a Department pistol optic class this week. We had nine total students who included a friend and former Department instructor who promoted to a patrol Sgt about a year and a half ago as well as one each of a State agency and Federal agency copper...

Pistols and optics are as follows:

Glock 17 not stock / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
S&W M&P CORE 5” / RMR manual
Staccato Comped thing / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
S&W M&W CORE 5” / Holosun 508T
Glock 34MOS / RMR manual
Glock 19 MOS / RMR manual
S&W M&P CORE 4.25” / RMR manual
Glock 34MOS / Holosun 509T
S&W M&P CORE / RMR manual

The only issues we had were the aforementioned G34/509T and the M&P CORE 5” with the Holosun 508T which was discovered to be loose a hundred or so rounds into day 2. The optic wasn’t mounted by us and we re-mounted with our procedures and new screws. We had no issues with that optic for the rest of the day.

The Staccato ran well as did the rest of the pistols. There were some ammunition issues across the board but that seems to be par for the course now, especially with practice ammo.

I used my M&P 2.0 CORE with an Apex barrel and a Holosun 407CO. This is the same pistol I used for the contract class last weekend, and I’m sold. I’ve had it for a only a couple weeks. I put a couple hundred rounds through it prior to the contract class to zero it and get familiar with the pistol and optic, then used it for demos in both classes. I probably have about 1,000 rounds through it and it’s pushed me to a personal record in our class evaluation drill. I’m very happy with the 8MOA ring... Assuming I have my contacts in or my glasses on. Without that, it’s a huge blur. for me, that means a smaller dot is still a better “assume worst case” optic, but I love the encouragement for target focus and the mitigated glare issue. For those who don’t have defective eyes, this is rad.

I’m gonna start shooting M&Ps again for a while.

[MD7305]

I'm curious if the M&P COREs you see are using the factory supplied plates or CHPWS plates?

[SoCalDep]

I'm curious if the M&P COREs you see are using the factory supplied plates or CHPWS plates?

Both.

I’m 100% against the factory plastic plates. The factory metal plates have worked great in my experience. The CHPWS plates have been hit and miss. For several months in 2020 all was good. More recently we’ve seen a fair amount of manufacturing errors in the CHPWS plates and it concerns me.

At this point I’d prefer the factory metal plates, but I'd go CHPWS over plastic, being strict about what I’d expect from them.

[MD7305]

Both.

I’m 100% against the factory plastic plates. The factory metal plates have worked great in my experience. The CHPWS plates have been hit and miss. For several months in 2020 all was good. More recently we’ve seen a fair amount of manufacturing errors in the CHPWS plates and it concerns me.

At this point I’d prefer the factory metal plates, but I'd go CHPWS over plastic, being strict about what I’d expect from them.

Thanks, your experience and this thread are very helpful.

[1Rangemaster]

SoCalDep: you and Mr. Gelhaus are providing valuable information-thank you!
I may have missed it, but could you outline your procedures again for mounting mrds sights you mentioned earlier?
Thanks again in advance

[Erick Gelhaus]

Both.

I’m 100% against the factory plastic plates. The factory metal plates have worked great in my experience. The CHPWS plates have been hit and miss. For several months in 2020 all was good. More recently we’ve seen a fair amount of manufacturing errors in the CHPWS plates and it concerns me.

At this point I’d prefer the factory metal plates, but I'd go CHPWS over plastic, being strict about what I’d expect from them.

Hmmmm. Interesting on the errors.

SoCalDep - I can't recall if you've mentioned either the TangoDown or the Forward Controls Design plates and your experiences, thoughts?

[SoCalDep]

Hmmmm. Interesting on the errors.

SoCalDep - I can't recall if you've mentioned either the TangoDown or the Forward Controls Design plates and your experiences, thoughts?

I have a FCD plate on my main Glock carry G19MOS. I have no complaints and the few I’ve installed for others fit very tight which is a good thing. The Tango down plate (recommended by Wayne Dobbs) for Glocks (ACRO mount) has worked great for me save the VC-3. I actually recently installed the TD plate with new screws and Loctite 248 on my G17MOS which is awaiting an ACRO of some sort.

Other than my personal TD plate I have little experience with them.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I have a FCD plate on my main Glock ...

Other than my personal TD plate ...

Thank you sir!

[DexterTaylor]

I’m gonna start shooting M&Ps again for a while.

I say this lasts for a month tops.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

I say this lasts for a month tops.

Since I just added another gen2 CORE, this one ported I'm hopeful it last's a tad longer as I'm not buying a 3rd SRO & looking hard @ Romeo3 Max + a plate for it.

[SoCalDep]

I say this lasts for a month tops.

Interesting first post. I’m super interested in your ability to predict my actions. Please expand on your thoughts. I’m looking forward to understanding why I’m wrong about me.

[DexterTaylor]

Interesting first post. I’m super interested in your ability to predict my actions. Please expand on your thoughts. I’m looking forward to understanding why I’m wrong about me.

It’s Andy. Don’t shoot me.

[SoCalDep]

In that case, best first post ever… lol.

[Erick Gelhaus]

During July 19-23, 2021, I coached a concealed carry skills & tactics class at Gunsi. The weather varied between the 70s / raining and 90s / clear. Somewhat dusty conditions when clear, beyond normal range dust. The round count was @ 950 of the ball with another 50 of frangible.

The guns:

G19 w/RMR – nothing noted;

Sig P365XL – the front sight departed the gun by Tuesday AM, and replacement was ordered & installed by the end of the week. Our gunsmith noted significant slide-to-frame rail fit concerns, including wobbling that appeared to come from the frame rails. Repeated issues with mounting the Shield RMSc on it, despite regularly tightening and checking;

M&P CORE 5” 9mm w/ RMR – difficulties feeding frangible ammo, yet had no issues ‘live’ ammunition;
Glock 19 with an SRO – nothing noted;

Shadow Systems MR918 w/ Holosun – issues with Glock/OEM magazines seating which resulted in a round not being chamber after reloads. (I believe I saw this problem and had thoughts on it previously, I’ll have to look);

Wilson Combat EDC X9 – nothing noted;

S&W M&P Shield 9mm with after-market trigger & sights – rounds nose driving in the magazines that couldn’t be cleared by Tap, Roll/Rack and necessitated a reload. The sub-compact pistols necessitate some changes in manipulations, especially with reloads & stoppages;

Wilson Combat 1911 – nothing noted;

Glock 19X – nothing noted;

Please, install your optics per the manufacturers' recommendations, including de-greasing, torque values, and thread lockers. Then paint pen mark your screws and windage/elevation adjustments as well. If that fails, then seek out other best practices.

I then did a one-day pistol-mounted optic tutorial for a student with two PMO-equipped pistols – STI Stacatto 4somethingish” and a Wilson EDC X9. Other than a couple magazines that failed to lock the slide to the rear, no mechanical issues were noted, however:

Cat Crap is your friend in rainy, humid conditions – the high desert during monsoon meets that criteria;

Check & confirm zero. He was adamant that he zeroed those pistols. The shooter was just far enough to one side with some consistency that we thought it was a shooter/hand/trigger issue. After a bit of time, I put him on a zero target, and we got him adjusted to where we could confirm/deny individual issues.

Have another week-long PMO class starting tomorrow. I'll post that info next weekend.

[HeavyDuty]

Please, install your optics per the manufacturers' recommendations, including de-greasing, torque values, and thread lockers. Then paint pen mark your screws and windage/elevation adjustments as well. If that fails, then seek out other best practices.

Is the Acro mounting system still proving to be more stable?

[Erick Gelhaus]

Is the Acro mounting system still proving to be more stable?

Yes! Emphatically yes, albeit with fewer samples. Spoke with another instructor here this AM. He is the chief of a 25+/- officer dept in CA that issues G45s with Acro P1s on the MOS/Aimpoint plates. They've had a single issue of a mounting problem and it didn't re-occur. My Acro has been on the Atei cut slide for two years of use, teaching, training, demoing, etc and no problems with its attachment to the slide.

[HeavyDuty]

Yes! Emphatically yes, albeit with fewer samples. Spoke with another instructor here this AM. He is the chief of a 25+/- officer dept in CA that issues G45s with Acro P1s on the MOS/Aimpoint plates. They've had a single issue of a mounting problem and it didn't re-occur. My Acro has been on the Atei cut slide for two years of use, teaching, training, demoing, etc and no problems with its attachment to the slide.

Thank you! I’m considering having a gun direct milled for an Acro, but it’s good to hear the MOS plates are working well. The P2 is the RDS I’ve really been waiting for, at least in theory.

[Oldherkpilot]

It’s Andy. Don’t shoot me.

I'm going to remember this line! Five words and this dude goes from certain death to best buds. That could.come in handy out in da streetz.😁

[Erick Gelhaus]

On Friday (7/30), I finished up the third run of a Gunsite 250RDS class Friday afternoon. Fifteen students – decent, normal humans; L/E, and retired Mil plus a service academy cadet. They shot between 900-950 rounds each, all 9mm, with 50 rounds of frangible. Temps were generally in the 80s, and it's monsoon season here, so the rain kept the dust down.

Pistol/Optic combinations:
Sig P320 X5 & Sig Romeo 1 – false dot;
LTT Beretta 92F & Holosun 507C – mounting loosened.
CZ P10F & Holosun 507c Green – Lock-out mode kicked in while working on downed dot drill. It took a trip to the Gunsmithy to find the magic path back to being illuminated, even after pulling the battery & re-installing it.
Sig P320 X5 & Romeo 1 Pro – adjustment issues, see below.
STI Staccato 9mm & RMR type 2 – CHPWS plate & mounting.

G19X & RMR type 2 – no issues noted or admitted.
Glock 34 & Holosun 507c - no issues noted or admitted.
Sig M17 (civ) & Romeo 1 - no issues noted or admitted.
Walther PPQ/Q5 (all metal) & Holosun 507c - no issues noted or admitted.
H&K VP9 & RMR type 2 – no issues noted or admitted.
FN LS EDC & RMR type 1 - no issues noted or admitted.
Sig Legion P226 & Romeo 1 Pro - no issues noted or admitted.
STI Staccato & RMR Type 2 - no issues noted or admitted.
Sig P365XL & Holosun 407k - no issues noted or admitted.

There were no mechanical failures of any optics in this class.
One odd mechanical glitch when I had the class power their optics back up after downed, blocked dot drills. No combination of button pushing on a Holosun & battery manipulation on the range could get it illuminated again.

Mounting continues to be a failure point for these. Since I had the only Acro and there weren't any 509Ts in the class, everything was a screw down into the slide mounting problem. Please, for the love of whatever deity you believe in, mark your screws with a paint pen or nail polish so you can see that they're loosening up.

Regarding the STI/RMR/CHPWS combination - the STI came cut for optics. Per the shooter, he ordered an after-market plate plus Torx bits and appropriate height sights from CHPWS in time for the class. The plate and a wrong height sight arrived on time, but the Torx bits did not. The shooter was not able to properly install and tighten the mount as a result. After the plate came loose, it went to the onsite Gunsmithy. They correctly re-installed and secured the mounting plate. After that? No more issues. Even after the student returned home, he had not yet received those items.

False dots are a thing. And it is interesting how and when they appear. Most of the ranges at Gunsite are west facing (one is NW facing). Only one student noticed them in this class, with a Sig Romeo 1. He saw them in the morning (when we were shooting drills with the downrange lens taped over with blue painter's tape) and later in the day as well. Previously, the false dot issue only appeared here, with Trijicon RMRs later in the afternoon. However, I've also encountered it in the AM during the PMO instructor class I taught in New England this March. The shooters who experienced it did so on an east-facing range in the AM with RMRs.

Special mention (and not positive):
We zeroed after lunch on Day #1 and re-visited the zeroes on Wednesday morning. Nearly all were minor adjustments that resulted from the shooters performing better with the optics, though not all. Another instructor and I spent a fair amount of time on a couple of Sig X5's with Romeo1 optics. There was student frustration when refining zero on Wednesday.

The problem I'm referring to is a complete lack of positive adjustments on those sights. I've heard people justifiably gripe about inconsistent clicks on the early Acros, and they're right. But at least there are some clicks in the Acro, albeit faint, as you go around that circle. I felt none on the Romeo1/Romeo1Pro. None. Before Monday, I hadn't encountered one of those in the wild, so I could not advise people about them (While I've taken the Sig Academy's red dot instructor class, I neither shot nor zeroed their dots). An example of how this impacted students – we looked at the zero targets, communicated the amount of elevation & windage adjustments required. The absence of clicks led to some interesting adjustments. Whoops. Big learning point for me. It was difficult to discern the tic marks around windage & elevation adjustment dials even with prescription eyewear. The M17/R1P combination had this issue, too, but the shooter had much better vision. Another point to re-visit.

[GJM]

In terms of false dots, the only optics I have not observed them on are the RMSc and Romeo 3 Max/XL. Using a Holosun in circle only mode also eliminates the false dot issue for me.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Friday afternoon we finished with the second run of a 5-day Gunsite #350 Intermediate Pistol – Red Optics class with ten students. The round count was right at 1200 rounds with 100 rounds of frangible plus about five rounds of Sims FX per student.

Temps were in the high 90s all week and crested 100 a time or two.

No optics failed during the week. There was one mounting failure early in the week. However, the student re-mounted it that evening. No more mounting issues were noted during the class.

Pistols/Optics combinations:
Wilson Combat EDC 9XL / Trijicon SRO – the battery died on day #2;
Glock 45 / Holosun 507C;
Glock 34 / Holosun 507/ACSS – battery started blinking and died on day #4 of the class (3-month-old battery);
Sig P320RX / Sig Romeo 1Pro replaced by a Sig X5/Sig Romeo1Pro – due to the trigger bar breaking;
S&W M&P 5” 2.0 / Trijicon Type 2 RMR;
Sig P226 SAO/Sig Romeo1;
H&K VP9/Sig Romeo1Pro replaced with a rental P320 / Sig Romeo 1Pro – significant ammunition problems with the H&K that lessened but continued with the Sig;
Glock 19 / Trijicon SRO;
Sig Sauer P320 Scorpion (metal framed) / Sig Romeo1Pro;
Grey Ghost G19 clone / Trijicon type 2 RM06 – mounting failure early in the week, fixed overnight, no more issues;

We zeroed the optics Monday morning. A few students refined their zeroes on Wednesday.

None of the optics demonstrated any problems when blue painter’s tape was put across the front of the glass. However, two shooters claimed to experience significant issues finding the dot when using the tape. They shot those drills without the tape. One took until much later in the week to regularly see the dot during the presentation.

Regarding the two dead batteries, one was a Panasonic, and the other was whatever battery the manufacturer shipped with the optic. The shooter had not been changed it out.

As part of the Monday afternoon discussion on the mechanical, maintenance side of the optics, the class was given the mounting method used by LA Sheriff’s Department’s Weapon Training Unit.

It’s encouraging to see that we aren’t breaking the optics electronically or mechanically. However, it is still disheartening to see mounting failures.

The students used a RMR equipped Sims FX Glock 17 during the force-on-force scenario. This is a Gunsite-owned set-up. It is an encouraging improvement from a loaner Riton optic on a temporary dovetail mount I had set up last year. My thanks to all involved in getting it done.

This was the fifth weeklong PMO-specific class at Gunsite in the last two years. There have been increasing numbers of students coming through the regular classes with pistol-mounted optics.

[Archer1440]

It’s interesting that apparently some students would choose to attend an RDS class with: Incorrectly mounted optics, OOS batteries, less than optimal ammo, etc.

When I did my repeat 499 last October with an RDS pistol I had two more thoroughly tested, identical pistols ready to go, spare batteries, and had thoroughly tested my ammo for the week. If someone is going to spend over 3k for a class (ammo, tuition, accommodations, travel) it seems to me that having your equipment well sorted out beforehand is a given- and if they’ve already been through a 250 (as 350 students will have been) it’s even more eyebrow-raising.

Now, one might say I was going overboard with making sure that if I had any issues, they wouldn’t be due to equipment, and I would happily accept that criticism- but anyone who has done a 250 knows one axiom:

Two is one and one is none. And three is better, still.

[Caballoflaco]

None of the optics demonstrated any problems when blue painter’s tape was put across the front of the glass. However, two shooters claimed to experience significant issues finding the dot when using the tape. They shot those drills without the tape. One took until much later in the week to regularly see the dot during the presentation..

This could be caused by not having true binocular vision. I have the same problem. I was born with a lazy eye that required a couple of surgeries to fix. However, before the docs had gotten my eye muscles re-worked my brain had wired itself to not merge the images I’m seeing, and there isn’t a way to fix it. Iirc Glenn E. Meyer has written a couple of scholarly papers on the same.

That means with a taped dot and a standard strong hand index I can either see the target with my left eye or see the dot with my right (dominant) eye, but not both at the same time, as my brain doesn’t merge the images It’s possible those guys brains were switching their eye dominance without them knowing/realizing, leading to a failure to see the dot, especially if they were trying to be target focused.

[Caballoflaco]

It might be helpful for dot-instructors to have a quick way to diagnose a lack of binocular vision. I know one of my first clues was when I could never see those magic-3D dot images. I wonder if a local or friendly ophthalmologist might have something similar y’all could have on a laminated card or something.

[SoCalDep]

Regarding occluded-eye aiming, some of the physiological factors involved were discussed in this thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?44872-Phoria&highlight=Phoria

I’ve seen this several times now with students. When I see them missing I’ll tell them to present the pistol and fire immediately when they see the dot. Usually they do much better that way because their eye doesn’t have time for the muscles to fully relax. That said, it’s not a complete fix and probably more of a diagnostic/range bandaid. I think it’s an important thing to recognize so they can take other steps to deal with an occluded optic.

[1Rangemaster]

I would again thank EG for these reports-they are a good contribution to collective knowledge here. All the “aspects” of “dot sights”-mounting, attention to batteries, etc. is something which has to be attended to, either by an operator or institutionally. Many agencies will have to focus on these aspects; that could be problematic for some. It’s not quite as simple as it may seem…
What I take away is that mounting is critical (duh), and that some sort of check is periodically needed. “Switched on” folks will probably do that themselves. An annual inspection checklist for the sights might be a start.
A spare battery readily available ain’t a bad idea either…

[GJM]

Don't you just take the optic out of the box, screw it on however, and that is all there is to red dot installation?

The irony is, if pistols were cut from the factory with an Acro footprint, that would be pretty much it for mounting.

[AMC]

Don't you just take the optic out of the box, screw it on however, and that is all there is to red dot installation?

The irony is, if pistols were cut from the factory with an Acro footprint, that would be pretty much it for mounting.

This is The Way.

[oregon45]

The irony is, if pistols were cut from the factory with an Acro footprint, that would be pretty much it for mounting.

This is what I'm waiting for.

[Nephrology]

Don't you just take the optic out of the box, screw it on however, and that is all there is to red dot installation?

The irony is, if pistols were cut from the factory with an Acro footprint, that would be pretty much it for mounting.

I am convinced that is the way of the future, but seems unlikely we'll get trijicon or holosun adaopting the ACRO footprint any time soon...

[SoCalDep]

Don't you just take the optic out of the box, screw it on however, and that is all there is to red dot installation?

The irony is, if pistols were cut from the factory with an Acro footprint, that would be pretty much it for mounting.

I tried to respond with a sarcastic comment of my own like five times and each one sounded like I was attacking GJM, so I’m just going to say that I approve of GJM’s sarcastic comment.

Day one of an optic class and I have two optics that came loose. A 509T Glock plate (plate to slide) and a 509T on an M&P Optic Ready 2.0 (optic came loose, but plate was a little loose too).

I totally agree that an ACRO direct mount is rad - It won’t solve everything, but it will solve a lot.

[MD7305]

....and a 509T on an M&P Optic Ready 2.0 (optic came loose, but plate was a little loose too).


Curious if you know if that was a CHPWS plate? I'm wanting to try a 509T on my M&P but I've heard mixed reviews of their mounting system being difficult to prevent loosening.

[1Rangemaster]

Curious if you know if that was a CHPWS plate? I'm wanting to try a 509T on my M&P but I've heard mixed reviews of their mounting system being difficult to prevent loosening.

FWIW, I had a C&H plate with a 509T on a G45 for 2000+ rounds over about 5-6 months. No loosening, but I was very generous with the Vibratite and let it set for 24 hours. I’ve since moved to Loctite after an ACRO locking screw slightly loosened(as indicated by “witness paint marks”-C&H and others recommend).
Look, bottom line: optics ain’t iron sights. They require attention to mounting, checking before carrying, and monitoring-plate AND sight. I’m sold on them as a “seasoned” shooter. As indicated, direct mill from factories would be really nice.
But the reality is we have multiple manufacturers of both pistols and optics and “commonality”is still being sorted out-that will take a few years.
Pay attention to SoCalDep and his procedures-and mount some backup irons if you’re going to carry the package.
Then train for all eventualities, please…

[1Rangemaster]

And also-I’ve seen good results with Tango Down ACRO plates, the Aimpoint plate(B&T mfg.) and GLOCK MOS plates when all are monitored.
I’m getting to the point where at least a couple of times a week:
1)Clear carry weapon; check; triple check
2)Check sight “status”. Does it wiggle? No wiggle good. Is it on? Little bright light-good!
3)Holster; several draws to “ready”(thanks John Hearne) Before last draw, check chamber/clear. Last draw, snap on a safe target two handed, tap, rack, shooting hand snap, tap, rack and switch to support, snap. Back to ready with two hands.
4)Loading, trigger finger straight, chamber check, tap back of slide and ease into holster. Drive to work.

If I’m not carrying an optic gun (like a holstered, pocketed piece) than I omit step 2.
So another way of looking at it would be an optics check just before the chamber check-trigger finger straight as one grasps weapon.
Do as your situation dictates…

[MD7305]

I was asking specific to the M&P and 509T combo. I'm familiar with and have had success following SoCalDep mounting procedures, etc. with Holosun 407/507 and Trijicon RMR units but I'm interested in a 509T. As far as I've found CHPWS is really the only game in town aside from S&W for M&P CORE mounting plates. I know from reading the forum GJM had trouble with CHPWS's M&P/509T solution. Hoping to hear about something new or improved.

[GJM]

I was asking specific to the M&P and 509T combo. I'm familiar with and have had success following SoCalDep mounting procedures, etc. with Holosun 407/507 and Trijicon RMR units but I'm interested in a 509T. As far as I've found CHPWS is really the only game in town aside from S&W for M&P CORE mounting plates. I know from reading the forum GJM had trouble with CHPWS's M&P/509T solution. Hoping to hear about something new or improved.

The first three times they worked on my M&P slide, the 509T came loose within a magazine or two. The last time, it seems to be holding, but I haven’t tested it more in months. I plan to send a slide elsewhere for a direct mill Acro install.

[SoCalDep]

Curious if you know if that was a CHPWS plate? I'm wanting to try a 509T on my M&P but I've heard mixed reviews of their mounting system being difficult to prevent loosening.

It was a CHPWS plate, but I suspect the mounting more than the plate itself. Now... This is the new plate that doesn’t require tapping the slide like GJM had to deal with, and I’ve been running a CHPWS plate for a 509T on a Glock 45 for the better part of a year with good result. In fact, it’s my current carry gun until I get my trusty G19 zeroed with the ACRO I mounted on it. I’ve mounted a couple 509T’s on M&Ps with CHPWS plates (the new ones) and they’re in the class we’re running now. So far the ones I’ve mounted have survived. We’ll see.

Regarding the new CHPWS M&P 2.0 plate, w hile I don’t like how tightening the screws affects the anodizing, it seems to be a really solid setup and I’m hopeful that it will work well. I’m going rogue and torquing to 15 in/lbs plate to slide before going with the Holosun spec of 20 in/lbs for the optic to plate.

[MD7305]

It was a CHPWS plate, but I suspect the mounting more than the plate itself. Now... This is the new plate that doesn’t require tapping the slide like GJM had to deal with, and I’ve been running a CHPWS plate for a 509T on a Glock 45 for the better part of a year with good result. In fact, it’s my current carry gun until I get my trusty G19 zeroed with the ACRO I mounted on it. I’ve mounted a couple 509T’s on M&Ps with CHPWS plates (the new ones) and they’re in the class we’re running now. So far the ones I’ve mounted have survived. We’ll see.

Regarding the new CHPWS M&P 2.0 plate, w hile I don’t like how tightening the screws affects the anodizing, it seems to be a really solid setup and I’m hopeful that it will work well. I’m going rogue and torquing to 15 in/lbs plate to slide before going with the Holosun spec of 20 in/lbs for the optic to plate.

Thanks for the reply, exactly the info I was looking for. Looking forward to hear how the examples in your class hold up.

[GJM]

Thanks for the reply, exactly the info I was looking for. Looking forward to hear how the examples in your class hold up.

My 509T work from Chip Wiz during their dark days, so hopefully the new CORE 509T plates are good. Doesn’t seem like rocket science.

[MD7305]

My 509T work from Chip Wiz during their dark days, so hopefully the new CORE 509T plates are good. Doesn’t seem like rocket science.

Thanks for being the test case! Seriously though, appreciate you sharing your experiences, it's very helpful.

[SoCalDep]

OK… So it’s been a while and I have a lot of catching up to do (Seven classes worth)…

Around the end of June we did a somewhat unusual 1911 certification course (two-days, probably 800ish rounds total each). We had fifteen students from several agencies. Pistols and optics were as follows:

4 x Staccatos with DeltaPoint Pros
4 x Staccatos with Trijicon SROs
3 x Staccatos with Trijicon RMRs

One student used a Colt M45A1 on day #1 and a borrowed Staccato with a DeltaPoint Pro (not listed above) for day #2. I taught with a borrowed iron-sight Staccato.
Three students from a neighboring agency were sent thinking it was a pistol optic class instead of a 1911 class so they showed up with Glocks and RMRs. They hung out and since all but one on day one had a dot and everyone on day 2 had a dot we made it a bit of a hybrid course.

As far as optics go I can’t remember any major issues in that class. We had several issues with Staccatos from magazines failing to lock back to some extraction issues and the inevitable dirty/dry guns failing to feed, especially from slide lock when thumbing the slide release. What does this mean for Staccatos and my opinion of them? Well – I bought a C2 after the class. I’m experienced with 1911s and their finicky personalities, and the Staccato is simply a 9mm 1911 with some updates. It can be 100% reliable, but won’t always come out of the box 100% reliable. This can be frustrating but with patience they can be great guns. So far (knock on wood) my C2 is approaching 1,000 rounds with no malfunctions using duty and practice ammunition and no cleaning… just occasional application of lube.


The next class was a 60-hr contract firearm instructor class in late July attended by 16 students from various agencies from around the state and even a couple solid shooters who drove 11 hours from Nevada. Round count was probably around 1,000 total of pistol ammunition since the course incorporated long gun training as well. Of those, nine students had iron sights (eight Glocks and a Sig P320) and seven used an optic. The breakdown of those is as follows:

Glock with aftermarket slide/RMR – Manual adjust
Glock/ DeltaPoint Pro
M&P CORE/ Vortex Venom
Glock/RMR – Auto adjust
Glock 34 gen 4/ RMR – Manual adjust
Glock 34 gen 5 / SRO
Glock / RMR – Manual adjust
I can’t recall any optic issues during the class.


Next up in mid-August was a Department class attended by a special unit of a local police department – Typical round count of about 1,000+ rounds. There were two shooters using Staccatos with RMR manual adjust models and the rest (10 shooters) were using Glocks with RMRs. I think everyone was running manual adjust models.
There were no optic issues that I can recall and other than a sluggish Staccato-P on day #2 (lube fixed it up) there were no gun issues either.


On August 23-24 we held an optic cert class with ten students. Eight were from our Department and two were from a local police department. Pistols/optics used were as follows:

Staccato P / DeltaPoint Pro
Glock / RMR – Auto adjust
Glock / RMR – Manual adjust
Glock 45 / Holosun 507C with ACSS Vulcan reticle
Glock / Holosun 508T
S&W M&P Optic Ready 5” / RMR – Manual adjust
Staccato P / DeltaPoint Pro
Glock / RMR – Manual adjust
S&W M&P Optic Ready / RMR – Manual adjust
Glock / RMR – Manual adjust

One of the Staccatos had some issues with some magazines not locking to the rear. The other one worked fine through both days. This was the first time I’ve been able to handle a mounted 507C with the Vulcan reticle and I like it. I see how it could be a help to a newer dot shooter or when shooting one-handed or support handed. I also like that the reticle is much less likely to be lost or confused in glare situations, but having no live-fire time behind it my opinion is subject to change. There were no issues with any of the optics.


On Aug 31-Sept 1 we held another optic class with six of our personnel and four from another local agency. Pistols/optics were as follows:

Glock / RMR- Manual
Glock / RMR – Auto
Glock / RMR – Auto
Glock / Holosun 509T
M&P Optic-Ready 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P Optic-Ready 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P Optic-Ready 4.25” / Holosun 508T
Sig P226 Legion / Romeo 1Pro
Glock 45 / Holosun 509T
Glock 17 / RMR – Manual

This class was the one where we had some issues with C&H 509T plates. The first happened on day #1 and involved the optic coming loose from the plate (on one of the Glocks). Once removed we found the plate was also loose. The front sight was also loose. The rear sight had been installed backwards. Basically, it was a shitshow. Upon inspection, if threadlocker had been used I saw no evidence of it. Everything got cleaned off, new screws used, degreased, and mounted according to our methods. There were no further issues with that pistol during the class.

The second problem was noticed by a student prior to shooting on day #2. This was an M&P and the plate was loose. Again, if there was any threadlocker used I couldn’t tell. It was re-installed with new screws as per our methods and there were no other issues during the class.

A third student had the optic come loose from the plate just after shooting started on day #2. This was another Glock. When we got it apart we found that one of the plate screws was loose as well and VC3 had been used. There was enough on the parts that I would say the application was excessive, but not unreasonable for someone who hadn’t installed a whole bunch of optics in the past. We cleaned and re-installed and no further issues occurred.

The guy shooting the M&P/509T that I had installed days prior to the class had no issues, and other than the issues described, all other guns/ammo functioned fine.


The next day we held a concealed carry class (designed for our undercover personnel) for a group of our custody deputies. This was sort of a “favor” to a former recruit. I had invited him to attend a concealed carry class set up for one of our undercover units but the unit cancelled the class at the last minute. I forgot to let him know and he showed up to a class that wasn’t happening. He told us that we could count on him getting enough people to do a class so we agreed and scheduled it. Most of the students, being pretty new, didn’t have optics, but one of the outside agency guys from the previous optic class came back for this one (he had a Glock/RMR) and my former recruit has one (M&P 5” / SRO).

A quick digression. This former recruit went through the academy at what I would call an upper average shooter level. He had “shot” most of his life but wasn’t all that good and had some bad habits in the academy. He was, however, very inquisitive and enthusiastic. A couple months after he graduated, he contacted me and asked if he could come practice and run some drills, particularly from concealment since, being assigned to custody, most of the time he carried a gun was off duty. When he showed up and we started shooting I was shocked. He was GOOD. We ran a bunch of drills and I introduced him to the FAST test. His first run was a clean mid 5 seconds from concealment. F me.

He’s disciplined, young, and wants to both learn and teach. I’m pretty damn proud of him.

Back to the subject… This class doesn’t matter but for one thing. The optics worked great… except mine.

I was running my Staccato C2 for the first time. I had mounted a DeltaPoint Pro and zeroed easily, shooting about a 1” group at 15 yards… Unusually good for me currently. As soon as we started demos of the courses of fire, everything was right… and by a fair amount up close. I went through the typical “what is going on” stuff and my frustration grew as the morning went on. By lunch my frustration was pinning the red.

When we broke I stayed on the range and did some 25yd shooting… Everything was low and right. I put the gun on a bag at 15 yards and confirmed it. I adjusted to a solid zero and went back to 25 yards with good results. I chalked it up to getting used to a new pistol with a new different trigger and ate my lunch somewhat content.
After lunch we returned to the range and started shooting. One drill we do during this class is the Pat MacNamara 500 aggregate. I had a decent group… high and left.

What. The. Hell.

While the students reloaded magazines I looked at the optic. The indicator marks hadn’t moved. The screws were still tight. I grabbed the optic and twisted right a bit. The dot had moved to the right. I twisted the other way… It moved left. I gave the gun to my partner and said to try it. He laughed and said “yep… it’s moving”.

I’m not a fan of the DPP screws. I’ve heard rumor there have been quality issues. I’m not a fan of the Staccato DPP direct mount. I don’t know why they have the bosses on the rear right next to the screws as opposed to forward. That said, I’d ordered a few different screws from McMaster-Carr to see if they would work as replacements and after some experimentation I settled on some hex-drive flat head alloy steel screws. I torqued them to 30 in/lbs going incrementally from about 22in/lbs when re-installing the optic. I just used it for two days of a three-day contract optic instructor development course and it held zero just fine and shot great. I still don’t trust it and the plate is on the way to mount one of my SROs.

I’ll continue to test the McMaster screws on another Staccato and hopefully we can get to the bottom of this issue. The McMaster screws have a larger head that sits proud of the base. It doesn’t affect the view through the window but makes indicator marking more difficult and doesn’t look “factory”. That said, I’m wondering if that additional material helps to lock everything in place without allowing deformation of the screw head. The head of the factory DPP screws are pretty small.


So this brings up the last class to bring us current, which is the 3-day contract optic instructor development course. We had 19 students and pistols/optics were as follows:

12 x Sig P320 / Romeo 1Pro
Staccato P / RMR – Manual
Staccato P / DeltaPoint Pro
S&W M&P CORE / DeltaPoint Pro
Glock / RMR – Auto
Staccato / Holosun 507C
Glock / RMR – Manual
Glock / Holosun 507C

In this class, we had a long classroom block on optic mounting and instructor development. During the mounting block anyone who wanted to remount their optic was encouraged to do so, and we had multiple slides available for the students to practice mounting optics. Several of the students took the opportunity to re-mount their optics.

There were no optic mounting issues during the class. My big takeaway involved using a DeltaPoint Pro for the first time when exposed to water. I was shocked how quickly and easily it was rendered ineffective by the introduction of water droplets. I’m used to running other optics and this is another reason I’m going to the SRO on the Staccato. I still have a DeltaPoint on a Glock aftermarket slide fun-gun, but it’s not my preference for serious work.

[Controlledpairs2]

this thread is awesome - thanks to the contributors

looking forward to hearing about these DPP screws

could I ask for assistance in the preferred mounting method? I did not see it specifically stated in this thread.

[SoCalDep]

this thread is awesome - thanks to the contributors

looking forward to hearing about these DPP screws

could I ask for assistance in the preferred mounting method? I did not see it specifically stated in this thread.

This is how I do it...

First, inspect the pistol to make sure it’s in policy (if applicable) and can accommodate the optic (does the person have the appropriate mounting plates, sealing plates if needed, accessories, raised iron sights, etc).

Next, check the optic to make sure it works. I’ve had three or four RMRs that just didn’t work on arrival. Mounting an optic to find out it is defective is pretty frustrating.

Now test fit everything without torquing. Does the optic fit the plate? The plate fit the slide? The screws work with the threaded surfaces? I’ve seen bad plates and bad screws. I’ve yet to see a bad optic or slide as far as fit is concerned, but let’s eliminate the possibility.

Now we’ll prep everything by degreasing all interacting surfaces. That means the slide pocket, the threaded holes in the slide, the plate (if applicable) and any threaded holes in it, as well as the screws. You can use acetone, gun scrubber or other degreasing products, or what I use very often which is isopropyl alcohol wipes.

Once dry you’ll apply your threadlocker... which is REALLY important. I use Loctite 248... This allows me to put the threadlocker where it needs to be without being excessive. It’s hard to give a really good direction on how much but I’d say you should apply a bit and use a finger while rotating the screw so the length of the engagement with the threaded hole has some Loctite applied but no Loctite globs outside the threads of the screw.

Then tighten each side until you feel a bit of resistance. Then alternate tightening until you reach the torque spec you need. I’ve recently started at about 75% - 80% of whatever the spec is and then increasing the torque on the wrench to get to the specified amount. I’m too dumb for the engineering aspects of it - but torsional forces dissipate over time, so taking a bit of time to ramp up to full torque seems like it may be a good thing. It may be voodoo. I don’t know. That said, after a couple conversations and playing with the idea I’m starting to feel like it helps avoid some issues I’ve had in the past where a given torque spec was not ok and stripped or sheared screws resulted. I’ve also heard that getting to that specific torque value, even if lower than the “spec”, helps to condition or calibrate or whatever the torque wrench, so once at the given spec the wrench is more accurate. That maybe BS as well, so I welcome input there from people who know things.

Once the screws are at spec, I mark the screws and optic with an oil-based paint pen. I put the paint from the pen on something like an alcohol swab wrapper or whatever, and then use a sharp toothpick to apply the paint to the optic screw and body. I get a nice clean line from the screw’s center to the optic body and let some run into the space between to know I have a good indicator of movement. This is NOT a way to lock the screws in place. That’s the job of the threadlocker. The paint tells me if the mounting failed, in which case I’d re-mount with new screws.

Let it cure for at least 24 hours and then zero.

This may be the way. It’s my way. I’m not sure it’s “the way”...but I’ve got a cup of coffee and a fold-up table and a sign that says “change my mind”.

[Controlledpairs2]

Many thanks SoCalDep for sharing this experience and knowledge.

[JSGlock34]

We had several issues with Staccatos from magazines failing to lock back to some extraction issues and the inevitable dirty/dry guns failing to feed, especially from slide lock when thumbing the slide release. What does this mean for Staccatos and my opinion of them? Well – I bought a C2 after the class. I’m experienced with 1911s and their finicky personalities, and the Staccato is simply a 9mm 1911 with some updates. It can be 100% reliable, but won’t always come out of the box 100% reliable. This can be frustrating but with patience they can be great guns. So far (knock on wood) my C2 is approaching 1,000 rounds with no malfunctions using duty and practice ammunition and no cleaning… just occasional application of lube.

Have you noticed whether the Staccato lock back issue tends to happen more often with the 20 round extended magazines?

[Archer1440]

This is how I do it...

[snip]

This may be the way. It’s my way. I’m not sure it’s “the way”...but I’ve got a cup of coffee and a fold-up table and a sign that says “change my mind”.

I’ve been an engineer for over 30 years solving issues like this, and teaching people how to solve them, and I would be hard pressed to articulate the right way to do this any better than you did. Well done, sir.

[SoCalDep]

Have you noticed whether the Staccato lock back issue tends to happen more often with the 20 round extended magazines?

So the short answer is yes but it’s more complicated than that. From what I hear there has been some issues with employee retention throughout the economy, and firearms related stuff is no different. I’ve heard that some 20rd magazines (from a vendor) have been supplied with 17rd springs and there was talk that the 20rd springs on some earlier generation mags were too weak... but some work great.

The three 16rd C2 mags and five 17rd P mags I’ve been using (gen 3) have been flawless so far over maybe 1,000 rounds.

Treat the Staccato like any other 1911 and test magazines and guns. If mags don’t work - get rid of them. If guns donw’t work, get them tuned and fixed. If you’re not sure, send the whole thing back and keep doing it until it runs 100%.

[SoCalDep]

I’ve been an engineer for over 30 years solving issues like this, and teaching people how to solve them, and I would be hard pressed to articulate the right way to do this any better than you did. Well done, sir.

I’m humbled to hear this, especially since I’ve seen your posts that obviously show your expertise.

In this theme though, I saw something new this week...

There were some threads/posts a while ago here about the McMaster screws not fitting an M&P 2.0 Optic Ready/CORE slide. I sort of discounted that a bit until a day or two ago.

I’ve been using McMaster screws on M&Ps for well over a year... and a pretty good amount of them. Enough that I’ve had to reorder them a few times (at 50-100 per pop) and just had to order another set because my supply was getting low.

This slide wasn’t having it. I wasn’t going to force it (I tried probably 5-6 different screws) and would have have to force it a lot. I decided to try the factory-supplied CORE screws and while they worked, they were tighter than I would like and I’m surprised at how different the fit of this slide was compared to slides I’ve used in the past. It’s brand new but the older model with the very minimal front serrations (compared to the ones that go all the way up the sides of the slides.

The right threaded hole in the slide was tight but OK with the McMaster screws... all of them. It was the left screw hole that caused the problems... This to me indicates a lack of consistency in the slide compared to the screws.

[HeavyDuty]

I’m humbled to hear this, especially since I’ve seen your posts that obviously show your expertise.

In this theme though, I saw something new this week...

There were some threads/posts a while ago here about the McMaster screws not fitting an M&P 2.0 Optic Ready/CORE slide. I sort of discounted that a bit until a day or two ago.

I’ve been using McMaster screws on M&Ps for well over a year... and a pretty good amount of them. Enough that I’ve had to reorder them a few times (at 50-100 per pop) and just had to order another set because my supply was getting low.

This slide wasn’t having it. I wasn’t going to force it (I tried probably 5-6 different screws) and would have have to force it a lot. I decided to try the factory-supplied CORE screws and while they worked, they were tighter than I would like and I’m surprised at how different the fit of this slide was compared to slides I’ve used in the past. It’s brand new but the older model with the very minimal front serrations (compared to the ones that go all the way up the sides of the slides.

The right threaded hole in the slide was tight but OK with the McMaster screws... all of them. It was the left screw hole that caused the problems... This to me indicates a lack of consistency in the slide compared to the screws.

Can you chase the holes with a tap?

[SoCalDep]

Can you chase the holes with a tap?

I would say yes (stainless slide and all) and I even have a tap set I’ve used for some aftermarket slide stuff but it would be very against Department policy for me to do it. Our Armorer could, but he’s out for a couple weeks and won’t be back before this guy’s class.

Now that you mention it though… I think I’ll recommend (since it’s a second gun for him) that he have our Armorer deal with the threads when he’s back after the class and we’ll re-mount it with new screws.

[SoCalDep]

Finished up another pistol optic class today. All the students were from my Department and I’m pretty impressed with the performance level displayed. We switched earlier this year from a prerequisite course of fire that was very marksmanship oriented to one that is manipulation heavy with a reasonable accuracy constraint and this was the first class where all the participants had completed the new qual. So far I’m happy we switched!

Pistols/optics used were as follows:

Sig P226 Legion / Romeo 1Pro
Sig P226 Legion / Romeo 1Pro
Staccato P / Trijicon SRO
M&P 5” Optic Ready (O.R.) / Holosun 507C-ACSS Vulcan
M&P 5” O.R. / Holosun 507C
M&P 5” O.R. / Holosun 508T
M&P 5” O.R. / Trijicon RMR - manual adjust
M&P 5” O.R. / Holosun 407C
Glock 19MOS gen 5 / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro NV
M&P 4.25” O.R. / RMR - manual adjust
M&P 5” O.R. / Trijicon SRO*
Glock 34MOS gen 5 / Trijicon SRO
M&P 5” O.R. / Holosun 508T

I shot my Staccato C2 as I’m still in the vetting stage with it. It has an SRO on it. At this point I’m probably nearing 1,200 rounds with no cleaning (lubing several times) and no malfunctions. It’s the first time I’ve shot it with the SRO save about 20 rounds to zero it last Friday. I like the SRO on it, especially since I’m still not used to the change in height of the optic above my hand when compared to the Glocks I normally shoot. The big window of the SRO allows more wiggle room for the dot not presenting perfectly and right now I’ll take it. I cut the medium beaver tail short so the grip has less of a “Glock” angle, but need to set aside some time to really get comfortable with it... Of course that’s if I decide to stick with it for a while vs. going back to the Glock... Not sure.

We mounted the 507C with the Vulcan reticle on the morning of the first day and it stayed tight. No one had an issue with their optic functioning or coming loose. Some “considerations” that won’t really be a surprise to anyone who’s familiar:

The SRO is badass if the sun is not in a position to cause glare. If it is, the SRO is greatly affected, followed by the DeltaPoint Pro With its big orange box as well as artifacts that appear. I could not get the Holosun 507C with the Vulcan to exhibit any substantial glare at a lower sun angle, and the only thing that appeared was a small green dot that was clearly not the reticle.

I think the Holosun circle-dot is too busy. I like the circle-only and I like the dot. This is the first time I’ve shot the Vulcan reticle and I think that it has advantages and disadvantages. The student using it liked it and credited the large ring with helping the efficiency in his skill-building. I found the reticle distracting but I also only shot about eight rounds through it so it’s a little early to judge.

I didn’t do the water exposure with the Sig shooters, but I did with the DeltaPoint shooter, and - having dealt with it myself demonstrating with a DeltaPoint Pro in a previous class, the lack of drain holes is an issue for me, especially if one is to use one for duty in a place with frequent rain. Not only are there no drain holes, but water that hits the window can end up running down to the emitter. With most optics, the draw allows the water that may have gathered on the window to run away and out. With the DeltaPoint that may happen, or it may pool around the emitter. Sometimes one shot or a good shake will clear it. Sometimes it won’t and takes multiple attempts.

By the end of day two one of the Sig P226 was being sluggish on the reload but continued to function without issue. The Staccato functioned 100% save the shooter failing to de-activate the grip safety on one course of fire.

[taadski]

By the end of day two one of the Sig P226 was being sluggish on the reload but continued to function without issue.


Can you elaborate? Sluggish going back into battery?

[SoCalDep]

Can you elaborate? Sluggish going back into battery?

Yep - sluggish in going into battery after the reload via slide release. It hadn’t been lubed during class and was at the time probably a bit over 1,000 rounds.

[taadski]

Good copy. Thank you. The P series guns like to be run wet. Especially when contrasted with the lube needs (or lack there of) of the modern striker fired pistol.

BTW, this thread and all your work on vetting and standardizing the optic mounting process are invaluable. Thank you.


T

[DexterTaylor]

“SoCal”, why no water test on the Sigs?

[GJM]

The Holosun circle works well in low sun angles -- easy to differentiate the circle from splatter.

77787

[SoCalDep]

“SoCal”, why no water test on the Sigs?

I should have made that more clear. The other instructor did the side of the line with the Sig shooters - they got wet but I just didn’t see it.

[AMC]

I should have made that more clear. The other instructor did the side of the line with the Sig shooters - they got wet but I just didn’t see it.

Trey, if you don't mind me asking...the Course of Fire you mentioned. Is that a new Department Qual or a new course of fire specific to the PMO class?

[SoCalDep]

Trey, if you don't mind me asking...the Course of Fire you mentioned. Is that a new Department Qual or a new course of fire specific to the PMO class?

PM Inbound...

[GJM]

509T on a G5 23 in the morning sun, using the circle dot reticle.

77841

[SoCalDep]

Today we finished up another two-day pistol optic class. We had ten students from our department, two from a Sheriff’s department a bit of a drive away, and two from different Federal agencies. Like the last class it was a good group of shooters and a fun two days, especially since the weather is being nice to us, which seems rare around here.

Pistols/optics used were as follows:

Staccato / SRO
Glock / Holosun 508T
M&P / Holosun 508T
Glock / Holosun 507C
Glock / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
M&P / Trijicon RMR-Manual
M&P / Holosun 508T
Glock / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
M&P / Sig Romeo 1Pro
Glock / Holosun 507C
Sig P229 Legion / Sig Romeo 1Pro
M&P / Holosun 508T
Glock / Trijicon RMR-Manual
M&P / Trijicon SRO

None of the optics had any issues and nothing came loose. The batch of practice ammunition we’re using has some issues which resulted in a bunch of across-the-board malfunctions, including with the Staccato I was shooting and my Glock. You could feel and hear the difference in the powder charges. That said, it gave students (and an instructor) things to distract and challenge them so I’ll take it. I mentioned in my previous post that one of the Sigs in the prior class was getting sluggish by the end of day 2, but the Sig P229 in this class ran like a top and I never saw a malfunction even with the bad ammo.

One student from another agency was using a modified Glock 17 with an Apex trigger. The trigger safety broke during day 2 which caused the center “safety” portion to swing freely. It didn’t affect firing the pistol except for the first shot where the safety could move forward and impede the shooter’s finger from being able to get into the trigger guard. Luckily it was about lunch time so his trigger was switched out to a stock one at lunch and he had no further issues.

[SoCalDep]

In the past couple weeks, we ran a firearm instructor school (12 students, 7 optics) and a pistol optic certification course (9 students, obviously all with optics).

The instructor school guns/optics were as follows:

Glock 17 / Trijicon RMR manual
Glock 17 / Holosun 508T
Glock 34 / Trijicon SRO
Sig P320 / RMR manual
Glock 19 / Holosun 509T
Sig P320 / Romeo 1PRO
Glock 17 / Holosun 507C

There were no optic issues during the class, though the round count isn’t very high in this course since it’s more about learning to teach. That said, we had one student whose agency is looking at optics and he borrowed one of our instructor’s dot-equipped guns for the class. His improvement and performance throughout the week in a class not designed around the dot was interesting and impressive. I know it’s shocking, but shooting a dot is largely about doing the fundamentals really well and when you’re forced to learn AND teach the fundamentals, the dot thing seems to kinda work into that.

During the week I discovered something interesting. A department member asked me to look at his Staccato P-DPO because he said something was up with the magazine release. When he brought it in he showed me that when he pressed the magazine release the whole mag-release assembly started to protrude out the right side of the frame. I removed the magazine release and looked at the polymer frame/grip module. I saw that the magazine catch lock had dug a trench through the plastic in the forward portion (where it would be in the locked position) of the magazine release channel. This obviously occurred over time, and he’s used the pistol in multiple training classes, but I’d never seen this before. I told him to send the pistol in for warranty work and I’m sure they’ll take care of it, but it’s now going to go on my list of things to inspect on a 2011.

The pistol optic class consisted of eight students from my department and one from a local department from the same state. Pistols and optics were as follows:

Sig P226 Legion / Romeo 1Pro
Glock 17 / Trijicon SRO
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 407C
Glock 17 / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 407C
Sig P226 Legion / Romeo 1Pro
Glock 17 / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 507C
Shadow Systems MR-920 / Holosun 508T

There were no optic or pistol issues in the class but our ammunition continues to be an issue. I’m hoping this extent of problems is limited to the current pallet of ammo and once gone will improve.

The two Sigs came from the factory with the optic installed. While my experience with Sig factory-mounted optics is limited, I don’t recall seeing one of their mountings fail. That said, we had to remove both optics to install the steel shroud. We did this at the end of day #1 to allow as much cure time as possible for the Loctite while still being able to zero the morning of day #2.

I removed the optic from one of the pistols and re-installed with the same factory screws and the steel shroud without issue. The other instructor used the screws supplied with the shroud as he’d attempted to do previously a few days prior with another shroud and the screws did not work – they started to engage and basically spun as any minimal torque was applied. While many of you already know this (I researched later and discovered it), the screws supplied with the shroud are for the older Romeo 1 and will not fit the 1Pro. The original screws were then used and no issues occurred on day #2 with either optic.

I had the opportunity to try out the Shadow Systems MR-920, and I like it. The grip felt very comfortable and the magazine well really helped lock in my grip. There were no issues with it during the class and It’ll be a tempting addition if I need another pistol to host an optic. I got the bug to impulse buy but combined with the fact there is no dealer anywhere near me and that I really don’t need it right now I was able to regain self control... go me.

Some other recent experiences with pistols/optics:

A few weeks ago one of our people brought in a Sig P365XL with a Holosun 507K for inspection. Right now we require the pistol and optic be brought in to be mounted by specific authorized people in our unit. Since the optic was installed on the pistol I asked who had installed it and the response was “the gun store”. I let the person know we’d have to remove it and re-install and he said he was ok with that.

I started to remove the screws and both felt like they had abnormal resistance but did move. About halfway out one of the screws sheared, leaving the remaining small portion in the slide, breaking even with the surface. I noticed the broken screw and the intact screw (once removed) had a LOT of what looked like blue Loctite all over them. I told the owner the slide would have to go to our armory to see if we could extract the screw, and with his permission I brought it down there later that week.

Our armory staff figured out an interesting fix for sheared screws. Our main guy had purchased a laser engraver. I joke that they set it from “stun” to “kill” and they engrave a slot into the top of the screw so that a slotted screwdriver will fit. I got to watch it done this time and it’s a pretty slick idea.

Here are some pictures:

The contraption:
https://i.imgur.com/d5pPSI6.jpg?1

The laser doing its thing:
https://i.imgur.com/OdI9ufW.jpg?1

The slot:
https://i.imgur.com/Zxv9PJu.jpg?1

After:
https://i.imgur.com/tVFNE95.jpg?1


Also, this week when working transitions in a patrol rifle course, one of the students noticed his 508T was loose on his M&P 2.0 Optic Ready. I took it to the office and examined it. Just like some of the previous incidents with 508Ts, the indicator markings did not show movement but the optic was clearly loose. One screw moved easily but the other seemed “tight”. Once turned, however, both screws were easily removed.

So… here’s my hypothesis and I’d appreciate any input from those knowledgeable on this forum:

I have installed a LOT of Holosun optics on various platforms with the McMaster-Carr screws. The screw head is definitely larger on the McMaster screws compared to the factory Holosun screws. There is less “room” in the optic for the screws compared to a RMR or SRO as well.

I’ve never had an issue with McMaster screws in any of my Aluminum Holosuns to include a 407A, 507C, and 407CO, nor did I have any issues with an older titanium 508T V1. My problem is I can’t remember whether I was using the factory or McMaster screws in that one as it was my first Holosun.

I’m guessing that since the construction of the 407/507 line is different from the 508T, there may be just enough more room for the screws to work, while there isn’t in the 508T, and there may also be a little something to do with the Titanium not having as much give as the aluminum, but I don’t have anything to look at right now. I’m going to check out my 407CO (currently not mounted since I let someone borrow the RMR plate from my CORE) when I get back to see if there are any marks in the metal from installing with the McMaster screws.

I think the screws are contacting the side of the optic body prior to seating in the recessed pocket and therefore seem tight. Once enough rounds are fired to deform the screw head or body enough the optic comes loose and the screw doesn’t need to turn for that to happen.

I know there was some discussion in the below thread several months ago (starting on post #48) about McMaster screw heads not fitting Holosuns, but I thought it was a compatibility issue with aftermarket milled slides and it didn’t match my experience with the 407s and 507s I’d used and mounted. Now I’m thinking there’s more to that story…

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?45645-Red-dot-screw-part-numbers-and-ordering-info/page5&highlight=McMaster%20Holosun

In short, I think there’s no reliable solution for Glocks with the 508T that I can find. All the McMaster screws in alloy steel or stainless, hex or torx, all have the wider 0.307” head. I’m going to be using factory Holosun screws for those. I’ve mounted several 508Ts on M&P Optic Ready pistols recently and used the factory screws. I did some research this morning and the McMaster 18-8 Stainless flat head screws have a smaller 0.262” head (in the 6-32x1/2”) so that is probably a solid option for the 508T on an M&P. I already have the stainless screws so I’ll have to get hold of a 508T and do some checking.

[GearFondler]

Awesome idea with the broken screw! Brilliant even! (laser pun dad joke) :D

I have a 508T myself but I used the factory screws and haven't changed them out yet.

[GJM]

Odd, as I have a number of 508T optics in use, and have never had one come loose. I am in elk camp, but will have to see what I am using. I know I have one 508 on a Zev Gen 5 slide, and another on a direct milled M&P 2.0.

[peterb]

I have installed a LOT of Holosun optics on various platforms with the McMaster-Carr screws. The screw head is definitely larger on the McMaster screws compared to the factory Holosun screws. There is less “room” in the optic for the screws compared to a RMR or SRO as well.

I think the screws are contacting the side of the optic body prior to seating in the recessed pocket and therefore seem tight. Once enough rounds are fired to deform the screw head or body enough the optic comes loose and the screw doesn’t need to turn for that to happen.

I know there was some discussion in the below thread several months ago (starting on post #48) about McMaster screw heads not fitting Holosuns, but I thought it was a compatibility issue with aftermarket milled slides and it didn’t match my experience with the 407s and 507s I’d used and mounted. Now I’m thinking there’s more to that story.

Do the countersink angles of the screws and optics match? That’s often a source of trouble any time I try to substitute a flathead machine screw.

“ Countersunk-head screws that follow the Unified Thread Standard very often have an 82° angle, and screws that follow the ISO standard very often have a 90° angle. Throughout the aerospace industry, countersunk fasteners typically have an angle of 100°.” - wikipedia

[Exiledviking]

This probably doesn't apply to your situation but I think it's worth bringing up; on a buddy's Staccato the factory screws that came with the 508T were a touch too long and bottomed out between the adapter plate and the slide. He figured it out after he found the Holosun loose.

The shorter screws supplied were too short and the longer screws looked just right until he found a small gap between the adapter plate and the slide on one side. One screw actually lifted the adapter plate away from the slide on one side. Sure enough, the 2 longer screws were a few thousands too long. He pulled it apart and took 0.005" off the one screw and a few thousands off the other screw to make them the same length and ensure that they didn't bottom out against the slide. Seems to have fixed it.

[DaBigBR]

What ammo are you having problems with? We've been shooting some Fiocchi 124 grain lately that we are noticing issues from case to case.

[SoCalDep]

I got my hands on a 508T X2 this week and compared it to my 407CO X2. The countersink of both optics is right up next to the side of the optic body. The McMaster screws did appear to at least touch the side when sitting in the countersink. When I removed the 407CO from my pistol, I immediately noticed significant wear marks on the inside of the optic body around the edge of the countersink. It appears that the McMaster alloy steel screws, with their 0.307" head diameter barely touch the body as the optic is installed and are able to move the aluminum enough to seat. In fact, the snug fit might even assist with keeping things in place. Here are pictures of both sides:

https://i.imgur.com/9MwD95E.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/97pmvZV.jpg?1

I "lightly" installed the 508T on a S&W M&P 2.0 optic ready (CORE) pistol. As I started to feel resistance when tightening the McMaster alloy steel screws into the 508T, I stopped, removed them, and saw that the side of the screw-head was indeed hitting the side of the optic body prior to seating.
https://i.imgur.com/Q6hfe44.jpg?1
There were wear marks on the edge of the screw-head. The optic body had two very small marks that were almost imperceptible, but that makes sense because I was purposely trying to avoid any damage to the optic.
https://i.imgur.com/0pfdZoL.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/wOC0JYH.jpg?1

So short answer to all of this is that I think that while the 0.307" head screws "probably" work reliably with the aluminum Holosuns, they don't reliably seat on the Titanium 508T (I think sometimes the tolerances work out... sometimes) and my guess is that once the reciprocation of the slide causes the optic to deform the small contact area of the unseated screw it allows movement and loosening of the optic. I'm no longer going to use them for the Holosun optics.

I looked on the McMaster web site and unfortunately, all of the 6-32x5/16" screws, whether alloy steel or stainless, hex or torx, have the 0.307" head EXCEPT the standard steel (part # 90920A274) torx screws (They have a 0.262"). They have the same 60,000psi tensile strength as the 18-8 stainless so that will be my go-to for Glock MOS going forward.

The 6-32x1/2" stainless torx screws (part # 92703A255) have the smaller 0.262" head diameter - with the same strength as the steel screws and increased corrosion resistance (we tested it and the stainless screws were better) so I'll be using those for installations in M&Ps going forward.

So the next question is whether 0.262" is small enough for the Holosun, and the answer is yes. I compared the stainless 0.262" head screws I have on hand to the factory Holosun screws and to my eyes (caliper? Pssshhh...) they are pretty close to the same size. Here's a pic (Holosun screw on the left, then McMaster stainless 0.262", and the 0.307" McMaster alloy steel on the right:

https://i.imgur.com/FCltEYA.jpg?1



Do the countersink angles of the screws and optics match? That’s often a source of trouble any time I try to substitute a flathead machine screw.

“ Countersunk-head screws that follow the Unified Thread Standard very often have an 82° angle, and screws that follow the ISO standard very often have a 90° angle. Throughout the aerospace industry, countersunk fasteners typically have an angle of 100°.” - wikipedia

More or less yes. I'm familiar with the countersink angles of various components (ie: the metric screws that attach the Glock MOS plate to the slide vs. the imperial 6-32 screws that attach the RMR to the plate). That said, I'm no engineer and I don't have a great way to measure angles so I did the best I could to confirm. That involves a protractor and graph paper. Yep... Science. For sixth graders.

Here's the McMaster stainless screw with its quality controlled US made 82 degree angle:
https://i.imgur.com/q8PSJb6.jpg?1

Here's the Holosun screw... I'm including two pictures of that one. Also, yes...there's a wrapper for a Reece's Peanut Butter Cup. It's Halloween... Don't judge.
https://i.imgur.com/ehW7s31.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/ex7KgCe.jpg?1



What ammo are you having problems with? We've been shooting some Fiocchi 124 grain lately that we are noticing issues from case to case.

It's Speer 124gr Clean Fire. Most of the time it works just fine, but this specific pallet of ammunition has been wildly inconsistent. We had some issues recently as well with Winchester practice ammo as well (I think 115gr) that involved cases that were either too long or too short. I chalk it up to the fact that the ammo manufacturers are trying to keep up with demand and QC has dropped a bit across the board. It sucks but it's reality.

[RJ]

...I looked on the McMaster web site and unfortunately, all of the 6-32x5/16" screws, whether alloy steel or stainless, hex or torx, have the 0.307" head EXCEPT the standard steel (part # 90920A274) torx screws (They have a 0.262"). They have the same 60,000psi tensile strength as the 18-8 stainless so that will be my go-to for Glock MOS going forward....



Awesome post.

I am snipping out everything but the above to ask this question. I'm trying to confirm the screw you'd suggest for a Holosun 507c, Dot to MOS plate, mounting screw. Is it a McMaster-Carr, standard steel, part number 90920A274, 60,000psi tensile strength, torx screw, with a 0.262" head and undercut profile, as per below?

Same question, for a Holosun 507k? Same screw?

79408

[SoCalDep]

Awesome post.

I am snipping out everything but the above to ask this question. I'm trying to confirm the screw you'd suggest for a Holosun 507c, Dot to MOS plate, mounting screw. Is it a McMaster-Carr, standard steel, part number 90920A274, 60,000psi tensile strength, torx screw, with a 0.262" head and undercut profile, as per below?

Same question, for a Holosun 507k? Same screw?

79408

Perfect timing. I had a guy come in today who wanted an optic (509T) mounted on a work gun and a couple optics swapped between some fun guns. One of the optics was a Holosun 507C, so I did a test-fit of the McMaster-Carr screws you have referenced above (standard steel - zinc plated... part number 90920A274). I was pretty confident they would work, but the “undercut” on the angled head (don’t know the technical term) made me want to confirm. They worked perfectly with good thread engagement but still not at all protruding from the bottom of the MOS plate. I took a couple pictures and I’ll probably update the other thread about screws and mounting once I get home to upload the photos.

As for the 507K... The optic is less the issue compared to what it’s being mounted on. I have very little experience at this point with the Glock 43X/48MOS guns, and have only mounted a couple Holosun “K’s” on them. I used the supplied C&H precision screws so I don’t know the dimensions and such. I’ve mounted several “K’s” on Sig P365 and have good McMaster alloy steel M3-0.5 x 10mm screws, but that probably doesn’t matter if you’re running a different platform.

[MistWolf]

I got my hands on a 508T X2 this week and compared it to my 407CO X2. The countersink of both optics is right up next to the side of the optic body. The McMaster screws did appear to at least touch the side when sitting in the countersink. When I removed the 407CO from my pistol, I immediately noticed significant wear marks on the inside of the optic body around the edge of the countersink. It appears that the McMaster alloy steel screws, with their 0.307" head diameter barely touch the body as the optic is installed and are able to move the aluminum enough to seat.

The problem (or at least part of the problem) is, the screw has a radius where the shank meets the bottom of the head

79437

and the countersink doesn't

79439

What happens is the point of the angle of the countersink hits the radius preventing the head of the screw from seating fully in the countersink.

If you look at this photo below, you can see where the radius of the screw started to flatten the hard angle into a radius when the screw was cranked down

The photos of the other screws shows they're threaded all the way to the head where the radius is. Be careful if you use them as that has weakened the shear strength (ie- created a stress riser) of the fastener at that point.

On the surface, it would seem the answer to the problem would be to use screws that fit the hard angle. In reality, the holes are not counter sunk correctly. The answer to relieve the angle so the screw with the radius so the head can fully seat when torqued. The radius on the fastener is to reduce the stress riser at that point and the result is a stronger fastener.

However, I get that it's unlikely you have the right countersink cutter or a hole deburring tool on hand. Maybe you know a machinist that can help you?

[MistWolf]

PS- I think the undercut style head illustrated in the chart posted by RJ will fix the problem

https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79408&d=1636050277

[SoCalDep]

The problem (or at least part of the problem) is, the screw has a radius where the shank meets the bottom of the head

79437

and the countersink doesn't

79439

What happens is the point of the angle of the countersink hits the radius preventing the head of the screw from seating fully in the countersink.

If you look at this photo below, you can see where the radius of the screw started to flatten the hard angle into a radius when the screw was cranked down

The photos of the other screws shows they're threaded all the way to the head where the radius is. Be careful if you use them as that has weakened the shear strength (ie- created a stress riser) of the fastener at that point.

On the surface, it would seem the answer to the problem would be to use screws that fit the hard angle. In reality, the holes are not counter sunk correctly. The answer to relieve the angle so the screw with the radius so the head can fully seat when torqued. The radius on the fastener is to reduce the stress riser at that point and the result is a stronger fastener.

However, I get that it's unlikely you have the right countersink cutter or a hole deburring tool on hand. Maybe you know a machinist that can help you?

That would be the case if the hole diameter in the optic matched the diameter of the shank of the screw. I’m not sure that’s the case and the screws very much seem to show wear at the edge of the head more than the radius. While the 407CO picture does seem to show a more radius edge at the bottom inner portion of the angle, those optics haven’t been the issue. The issue has been the Titanium 508T optics.

I’ll add… if it takes a machinist to make something work… It’s a failure for my purposes. This is not a hobby. Life and very much death can depend on this. My goal is to find the most robust mounting solutions to mitigate the greatest common optic failure, which is mountings coming loose. Cops and not cops aren’t machinists but they need their equipment to perform. I get mounting failures and improper threadlocker but if something sucks then it sucks.

The question is… does it suck?

[Nephrology]

That would be the case if the hole diameter in the optic matched the diameter of the shank of the screw. I’m not sure that’s the case and the screws very much seem to show wear at the edge of the head more than the radius. While the 407CO picture does seem to show a more radius edge at the bottom inner portion of the angle, those optics haven’t been the issue. The issue has been the Titanium 508T optics.

I’ll add… if it takes a machinist to make something work… It’s a failure for my purposes. This is not a hobby. Life and very much death can depend on this. My goal is to find the most robust mounting solutions to mitigate the greatest common optic failure, which is mountings coming loose. Cops and not cops aren’t machinists but they need their equipment to perform. I get mounting failures and improper threadlocker but if something sucks then it sucks.

The question is… does it suck?

FWIW I've been using mounting screws sourced from Maple Leaf Firearms (who did basically all the milling for my pistols with RMRs and 508Ts) and all their screws are beautifully countersunk. Not sure where they are sourcing them but you can either buy from them directly or shoot them an email to see if they have any info re: your question.

[MistWolf]

That would be the case if the hole diameter in the optic matched the diameter of the shank of the screw. I’m not sure that’s the case and the screws very much seem to show wear at the edge of the head more than the radius. While the 407CO picture does seem to show a more radius edge at the bottom inner portion of the angle, those optics haven’t been the issue. The issue has been the Titanium 508T optics.

I’ll add… if it takes a machinist to make something work… It’s a failure for my purposes. This is not a hobby. Life and very much death can depend on this. My goal is to find the most robust mounting solutions to mitigate the greatest common optic failure, which is mountings coming loose. Cops and not cops aren’t machinists but they need their equipment to perform. I get mounting failures and improper threadlocker but if something sucks then it sucks.

The question is… does it suck?

It sucks. The question is, why does it suck, because in this case, there are two categories of suck-
1) It sucks hard and the average cop should avoid it
2) Maybe it sucks hard, maybe it's just frustrating. Maybe the average cop can deal with it.

Looking at the question through your necessarily narrow view, if the parts require any sort of modification to fit, it sucks hard.
-If the alignment pins are too tall or the mounting base is too thin, the fastener will bottom out. Full clamping pressure will not be achieved.
-If there is any play in the fitment- fore, aft, side to side, the optic could move under recoil and the fastener head may fail with use, or the holes in the base wallow out.

Solution- Hard pass until fixed by makers.

If the fasteners are incompatible with the installation, maybe it sucks hard, but definitely frustrating to deal with.
-If the unthreaded portion of the fastener is too long, it will bottom out and full clamping pressure will not be achieved.
-If the head diameter is too large and makes contact in any place but the countersink, this not only will compromise clamping pressure, but will place a side load on the fastener. This can lead to failure.
-If the fastener is too long overall, it can lead to interference with moving parts or, if the hole is blind, bottoming out.

Solution- Get the right fasteners. Once the right fasteners are installed, it should solve the problem.

[Clusterfrack]

… if it takes a machinist to make something work… It’s a failure for my purposes. This is not a hobby. Life and very much death can depend on this.

I was looking for a new sigline, and I've found it.

[Controlledpairs2]

I’m not a fan of the DPP screws. I’ve heard rumor there have been quality issues. I’m not a fan of the Staccato DPP direct mount. I don’t know why they have the bosses on the rear right next to the screws as opposed to forward. That said, I’d ordered a few different screws from McMaster-Carr to see if they would work as replacements and after some experimentation I settled on some hex-drive flat head alloy steel screws. I torqued them to 30 in/lbs going incrementally from about 22in/lbs when re-installing the optic. I just used it for two days of a three-day contract optic instructor development course and it held zero just fine and shot great. I still don’t trust it and the plate is on the way to mount one of my SROs.

I’ll continue to test the McMaster screws on another Staccato and hopefully we can get to the bottom of this issue. The McMaster screws have a larger head that sits proud of the base. It doesn’t affect the view through the window but makes indicator marking more difficult and doesn’t look “factory”. That said, I’m wondering if that additional material helps to lock everything in place without allowing deformation of the screw head. The head of the factory DPP screws are pretty small.



SoCalDep, do you mind sharing which McMaster screws you ordered and are testing? How has that been going? I had Leupold send me a batch of OEM DPP screws as I am approaching an annual maintenance, inspection, and potential remount.
Thanks in advance.

[HCM]

If Erick doesn't mind I'm going to piggyback here till I can write a real AAR. I just finished my 3rd RDS class with Modern Samurai Project (@Asiajedi). Scott's instruction and student diagnostics were excellent as always but just wanted to provide some gear observations:

There were 20ish shooters (we lost a couple on day 2) with a mix of RMRs, SROs, Holosuns and SIG optics. It's a 2 day course with an official round count of 1,000, I've usually shot 800-ish "mas or menos.

There were no direct optics failures in this class or the two prior classes. Two shooters in this class had optics come loose due to mounting issues: a factory optics ready CZ P-10 with an SRO and a 5' Ported PC S&W M&P Core 9mm with a Holosun. The S&W issue was with the CORE mount but the shooter (a USPSA competitor and high volume shooter) said he has had the same issue with the C&H plate on his identical back up gun.

This class I ran a SIG P320 Carry with a factory mounted Romeo1 PRO instead of my usual Glock for familiarization purposes since 320s and the Romeo1 PRO are issued / authorized equipment at work. I had no mechanical issues with the gun or optic. I did however experience two shooter / grip induced stoppages when the base of my thumb inadvertently activated the slide lock in mid string / with rounds in the mag. These were the 5th and 6th such issues I've experienced with the 320 X grip.

There was one other shooter running a 320/M17 Bravo with an RMR on an adaptor plate and one shooter who ran the whole course with a P365XL with a factory mounted Romeo Zero. No issues.

There were several (5-6?) shooters running 2011's, one Triarc, the rest recent STI/Stacattos, one XC model and the rest P Duos. All were running RMRs or SROs. One of the DUO shooters had both a P DUO and a C DUO (the single stack) and switched between the two. One thing I noticed was a couple of the 2011 shooters had their grip safeties taped or rubber banded down. This is heresy because everybody knows in Texas you may only deactivate your grip safety with a piece of raw hide.... Scott Jedlinski also ran an XC the first day - no issues. The other XC shooter had a few return to battery issues the second day as the gun got dirty but they appeared to be related to running a lighter (8lb ?) recoil spring. No issues with the P DUOS or C DUO.

One shooter ran a 5" PPQ with and SRO and experienced failure to fire towards the end of day one.

Everyone else ran Glocks. The only Glock issue was caused by an aftermarket trigger. Shooter finished the class with a borrowed Glock.

Scott was gracious enough to allow me to shoot his RMR equipped LTT Beretta 92 after class. suffice to say, as a long time 92 fan it's going to cost me money.....

If Erick Gelhaus doesn't mind I'm going to piggyback here again.

I just finished my 4th RDS class with Modern Samurai Project ( AsianJedi ), this time Scott's Instructor class. Scott's instruction and student diagnostics were excellent as always and it's interesting seeing how Scott's POI and certain parts of that POI have evolved, particularly his method of teaching float and transitions for multiple targets.

Jedi's classes normally attract talented shooters but this class was "the deep end of the pool." Student's included Mr Pink and his wife (a top competitor in the Tactical Games), Riley Bowman, host of the Concealed Carry Podcast and World Speed Shooting Champion BJ Norris who earned the 17th MSP Black Belt Patch.

BJ Norris (now a US Border Patrol Agent) and myself were the only LEOs and there were no active duty military which was unusual compared with past MSP classes.

There were 18 shooters with a mix of RMRs, SROs, Holosuns and SIG optics as well as two ACROs. One shooter ran a P1, another (the shooter whose CORE failed in the last class) shot the course with Jedi's P2 equipped Walther PDP. There were at least 3 other PDP shooters in the class. One of them had issues with his Freedom Munitions ammunition's but there were no gun related issues with the PDPs. Glock and SIG P320s predominated, followed by Staccatos and Walther PDPs and a lone P365XL/VP9 shooter.

It's a 2 day course with an official round count of 1,000. I shot 800-ish.

There was only one optics failure I was aware of, a Holosun 507k X2 on a P365XL which ejected it's battery and battery compartment in the midst of a string of fire. The shooter swapped for his VP-9 with RMR and continued without issue.

One Staccato P Duo shooter had ongoing issues with his mag dropping out of the gun on the draw / presentation. It seemed to be a grip related issue and the gun ran 100% when the mag was in the gun.

I ran a SIG P320 Carry with a factory mounted Romeo1 PRO from an ALS holster which is our issued / authorized equipment at work. I had no mechanical issues with the gun or optic.

Ironically I received my LTT Beretta 92 RDO just before class so last years "test drive" did, in fact, cost me money.....

[TC215]

If Erick Gelhaus doesn't mind I'm going to piggyback here again.

I just finished my 4th RDS class with Modern Samurai Project ( AsianJedi ), this time Scott's Instructor class. Scott's instruction and student diagnostics were excellent as always and it's interesting seeing how Scott's POI and certain parts of that POI have evolved, particularly his method of teaching float and transitions for multiple targets.

Jedi's classes normally attract talented shooters but this class was "the deep end of the pool." Student's included Mr Pink and his wife (a top competitor in the Tactical Games), Riley Bowman, host of the Concealed Carry Podcast and World Speed Shooting Champion BJ Norris who earned the 17th MSP Black Belt Patch.

Work is sending me to his instructor class in April. I'm really looking forward to it.

[UNM1136]

Work is sending me to his instructor class in April. I'm really looking forward to it.

I am trying to go to his AIWB and Red Dot three day combined course in El Paso in March, after the local SO's course in February. Instructor course next year.

pat

[SoCalDep]

SoCalDep, do you mind sharing which McMaster screws you ordered and are testing? How has that been going? I had Leupold send me a batch of OEM DPP screws as I am approaching an annual maintenance, inspection, and potential remount.
Thanks in advance.

I ordered button head and socket head screws but I don’t think they’d work well. I’m using alloy steel M4 x 0.7 x 16mm hex drive flat head screws (part #91294A194). As I mentioned in the other post, the head is wider than the countersink for the DeltaPoint Pro screws, so the top of the head sits slightly proud of the DPP body. It’s not the prettiest setup (See below).

Up to last week I had a bit over two thousand rounds with it on a Staccato P-DPO and it was holding zero. I used 30 in/lbs on this one and did one of my partners’ P-DPOs the week prior with those screws at 28 in/lbs to see how that works – His DPP was having the same problem mine was with the optic being able to shift in the pocket, causing the zero to wander. Well, getting ready for a 1911/2011 class over that weekend his DPP moved. He mounted a Holosun with a Dawson plate for the class and had no issues.
I will discuss it in more detail in the next post, but my DPP moved halfway through the first day of the two-day class (as did two student’s DPPs) and I used my C2 with Dawson plate and SRO on day 2 with no issues.

So in short, I don't have a DPP solution for the Staccato and I removed it. I'm now awaiting a Dawson Holosun plate for the P.

https://i.imgur.com/VkQ9hDI.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/MwiNzTP.jpg?1

[SoCalDep]

Having been a while, here’s some updates… Lots to talk about so I’m going to break this up into a couple posts.

When we started the optic program we let the user mount the optic or we did it if they weren’t comfortable. After a little while we started telling the students to come to the class without the optic mounted so we could do it. Later we realized that cure time is a thing so we had them come before the class if possible. Now (starting in around April of this year), our personnel are required to have pistols inspected and optics mounted by our armory staff or two of us who teach the optic class.

At first I was doing what everyone else does by simply entering the information necessary for our computer records (basically noting I mounted an optic on a particular person’s particular pistol). I realized that I could have some worthwhile statistical data if I tracked details over time, so I developed a form that allows me to record the details of mounting optics. I started doing that in August of this year but I have some notes going back to June, so I’m now at 71 optics mounted in the last six months with specific records for torque, materials, components, etc. I’ve probably actually mounted more like eighty or so in that time and a couple hundred or so total, but without records it doesn’t really matter. Also – This is just me and doesn’t count the optics mounted by the other instructors or armory staff.

For some more numbers, if my records are correct, we’ve done forty optic certification classes through my Department with 254 of our people completing the course and 122 people from thirty outside agencies for a total of 376. We still have one class to go this year. That doesn’t count the private contract training classes, which add 60 to 80 more people to those numbers. We’re now getting regular students in other in-service training (1911/2011 classes, state-mandated recurrent training, firearm instructor schools, etc.) that are running optics, so we’re seeing more use over time. There are departments and agencies that have done more people/guns, but I’m trying to track as much information as possible, hopefully finding as many of the “problems” I can so we can solve them.

So now lets talk about classes and guns/optics we’ve seen recently…

In late October I was able to attend a ballistic shield class put on by Tacflow Academy. The class was very good with lots of force-on-force. Every “scenario” allowed you to be part of the team, a bad guy, or a hostage. As to how that applies here, it was the first class where I was able to use an optic-equipped pistol (dedicated sim upper with RMR) for sims, and it was my first opportunity to use a pistol optic with a shield. I found the optic very effective and had no issue finding the dot.

My Surefire X300U took a direct hit in the second scenario… in the light… when the weapon-light wasn’t on. I know the argument is constantly “they’ll shoot at the light” but in most lighting conditions they can see and will shoot at you. If the gun is centerline (like when we’re aiming or presenting it) and the opponent is aiming center mass… Your light, or optic, or face might get shot… or your gun-hand middle finger – that got hit on the first scenario. I wore gloves after that one.

Another thing I noticed during the live-fire shooting involved shooting my Glock 34 with a Holosun 507C mounted. I had decided prior to the class to give the 32moa circle-only a try with the shield (I’ve played with it before and liked it…) since we’d be shooting from mid-day into darkness. That lasted about 25 rounds. I found that (as I mentioned) while I liked it during previous shooting sessions, shooting one-handed with the shield, the movement of the circle was so busy in the window it was very distracting. I could see the target but then there was red going everywhere. Nope. Back to the dot and all was well. Not saying the circle is bad or doesn’t have its place – but it’s not the solve-all… at least for me.

Of the (I think) sixteen students from five agencies attending that class I think only two weren't running optics, and their department is looking into authorizing them. Guns included Staccatos, A Sig P226 with an optic, Some Glocks, an M&P or two, and the iron sight guns were Sig classic series but I don't know what model.

Also – Visible lasers, when used with proper understanding and in the right context – are rad. I’ve been using lasers off and on for 20 years and 19 in law enforcement and used to be a huge fan. With the development of better weapon-mounted lights and pistol-mounted optics I'd come to the opinion that other than CCW or backup guns, they were pretty obsolete. They are applicable enough in certain circumstances that a major municipal SWAT team is buying a bunch for their guys. I still think the optic is a way better all-around, but I’m less in the “lasers are obsolete” camp again for a few reasons and the timing works well because I will be teaching a laser pistol class later this month.

https://i.imgur.com/Zbff2s3.jpg?2

[SoCalDep]

And now for part 2...

We ran a pistol optic class for the department in the middle of November – standard 16hrs with around 1,000 rounds fired. We had twelve students, and all but one were from my department. The other was from a local department in the area.

Guns/optics are as follows:

M&P 4.25” O.R. / Holosun 508T
M&P 4.25” O.R. / Trijicon SRO
Glock 34MOS / Aimpoint ACRO P-1
Sig P226 Legion / Holosun 508T (Apparently the C&H plate for the Sig P320 fits… Go figure)
M&P 4.25” O.R. / Holosun 508T
M&P 5” O.R. / Holosun 508T
M&P 5” O.R. / Holosun 507C
Glock 17 / Holosun 509T
Glock 34MOS / Trijicon SRO
M&P 5” O.R. / Holosun 507C
M&P 5” O.R. / Holosun 508T
M&P 5” O.R. / Trijicon RMR-manual adjust

I don’t think there were any significant pistol or optic related problems in the class.

A week later we had an in-service training class for a couple specialized detective units within our department. Eight of the ten attendees had optics on their pistols. It wasn’t a super-high round count class (maybe 300 rounds) but there were no issues with optics. One Staccato was having almost constant failures to lock the slide to the rear on an empty magazine and had some feeding issues. It will be going in for warranty…again.

Pistols/optics were as follows:

Sig P226 Legion / Sig Romeo 1Pro
Sig P226 / Iron sights
Sig P226 Legion / Sig Romeo 1Pro
Staccato P / Trijicon SRO
Glock 17 / Iron Sights
Glock 19 / Trijicon SRO
Staccato C2 / Trijicon RMR-manual (gun ran flawlessly which is my general experience with C2s)
M&P O.R. / Holosun 508T
M&P O.R. / Trijicon RMR-manual
Glock 34MOS / Trijicon SRO

Last week we had another department 1911/2011 certification class. Round count is around 600-700 I believe over the two days. There were nine students including two from an out-of-state local law enforcement department. There were only two students running iron sights, and one of those was running a Staccato – He’ll be throwing an optic on his pistol as soon as he gets all his equipment and gets into an optic class.

Guns/optics…

Staccato P / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato P / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Staccato P / Holosun 508T
Staccato P / Trijicon RMR-manual
Staccato P / Iron sights
Staccato P / Trijicon SRO
Staccato P / Got distracted and didn’t write it down
Staccato P / Got distracted and didn’t write it down
Springfield Armory MC Operator .45 / Iron sights

Most of the guns functioned well. One student was putting a lot of pressure on the slide with their thumb and causing failures to feed and eject. He was starting to get the hang of it (a bit) by the end of day one, but then got sick (the next day he thought he had Covid but tested negative) and didn’t return for day two.

Had another student who was having some trouble with thumb placement regarding the safety and slide and had a few (infrequent but enough to know he wasn’t doing it right) malfunctions on day one and a couple early on day two. Ultimately this is a training issue BUT I’m leery of 9mm 1911s that are so easily influenced in a negative way when other guns aren’t. That’s why I think the shorter barrel and more positive slide return of the C2 makes it more reliable.

Now for the complaining to start…

I’ll start with the Staccato since that was the most recent class.

I HATE the direct-mount for the Leupold DeltaPoint Pro. The pocket allows too much movement of the optic and the removable metal boss posts are positioned to the rear of the slide’s threaded holes. This means there is less distance between screws and bosses compared to if they were mounted in the forward position and allows even more movement within the pocket.

You can mount the optic on the slide and snug the screws (not tight – just snug) and wiggle the optic side-to-side. I’ve heard that the DPP has had bad batches of screws. I’ve bought alloy steel screws with beefy heads and tried those. I’ve torqued up to 30 in/lbs. I think every one of us (my fellow instructors) has been able to grab the DPP when torqued down tight and, using our hand, twist it in the pocket and make the dot move.

I thought maybe my beefy screws had fixed the problem until day 1 of the 1911/2011 class. I don’t know if I hit the optic on the holster, if it moved on its own, or what, but while the screws were still tight the zero had shifted two inches right (at 15 yards). I twisted it more and the first shot off a bag was almost four inches right - then the optic moved (I could see the dot was in a different position relative to the irons) back to 2 inches. I twisted it the other way and it was pretty much dead on. I checked the screws, and they were still tight. I have a Dawson/Staccato Holosun plate on the way. No more Staccato/DPP for me. Oh yea – This also happened to both other instructors AND the two Staccato/DPP students. All the guns had a zero that would wander 2”-4” at 15 yards. I can’t remember any issues with the Dawson plates coming loose. I'm not a huge fan of the DPP in general so it's not a big deal but it's frustrating.

We recently received a Bushnell RXS-250 optic for evaluation. I mounted it on the Staccato-P and it seems a much better fit in the pocket than the DPP. I haven’t shot it yet but hopefully in this month’s pistol optic class we’ll put some rounds through it and twist on it a bit to see what happens. I don't have much of a comment on the Bushnell yet but we were asked to give it a look so we will.

The Staccato P with the RMR (in the 1911/2011 class) had the optic mounted that morning and early on day 2 it came loose. He had purchased one of the plates from C&H to mount the optic and the plate wedges in using two tabs into the front of the optic pocket and uses one beefy screw to attach it to what was the screw holding the rear sight/cover plate in place. That rear screw had come loose. I cleaned it, degreased the threads with a commercial firearm degreaser, and re-installed it with Loctite 248 as was done before. The student contacted me after the class to let me know it had come loose again.

This could have been caused by not letting the Loctite cure. It could be some defect in the mount. There could have been enough stress on the screw prior to re-mounting to affect the integrity of the screw. That’s me saying I don’t know. I told the student that if he wants to use the C&H plate he should request a new screw and we’d re-install, this time letting it cure the 24 hours.

This is the first C&H Staccato plate I’ve seen and therefore it’s anecdotal, but something to note.

Speaking of C&H… I like them in general. They do make good stuff and are responsive to the needs of the industry. That said, nothing is perfect. I had someone come in recently to mount a Trijicon RMR to his M&P Optic Ready. The RMR would not fit on the plate. I couldn’t tell for sure but it seemed the bosses didn’t line up with the recesses in the optic correctly. I checked on a Glock MOS plate, a C&H Glock plate, and a factory S&W CORE plate and the RMR fit on all of those, but absolutely would not go on the C&H M&P plate. I ended up using a S&W factory metal plate to mount the optic and he said he was going to contact C&H.

Since we’re talking about Trijicon, lets go down that road. In the last couple months I had one RMR come in for a battery change because the user said the battery had died.
He'd carried it for around six months then switched to another optic-equipped gun. After sitting in the safe for three months it was no longer functioning. We tried three different batteries and it was the optic that had died. He was going to contact Trijicon to fix it and I'm sure they will/did but I haven't heard back from the person.

More recently in one of the October classes, one of my fellow instructors (I forgot to report it on the a previous update because it was an instructor and not a student) had his RMR start shifting zero. It was tight but the dot started moving. He’s a great shooter so I thought it was weird that he wasn’t hitting. After some investigation we could see it had shifted 2” at four yards. Then I went to shoot it and while I was shooting it shifted again another two inches. He checked it again and confirmed 4” of shift at four yards. Like I said, nothing is perfect. I like Trijicon products but sometimes poop happens.

Now on to Smith & Wesson.

Not a super huge deal, but now my optic mounting kit includes a hammer and punch for the extractor pin. I’ve had three M&Ps come in where the pin is proud of the optic pocket and won’t allow the plate to sit flush. Not the worst thing in the world but something to be aware of. What’s more frustrating is that (as others have reported) I’ve had more than one M&P come in with threaded screw holes that were VERY tight. On one gun I had to use the screws included with the M&P because both the McMaster alloy steel and Trijicon factory screws wouldn’t fit. On a more recent one, the person brought in an M&P and when I went to test fit, the McMaster screws were a no-go, especially on the right side screw. The Trijicon factory screws were a no-go as well. I ended up using McMaster stainless screws which did end up working, though they were pretty tight as well. I don’t think they would have worked if I hadn’t tried to thread the other screws several times prior.

Similarly, I recently attempted to mount a CTC optic to a S&W Shield Plus Optic Ready pistol. The screws included with the optic would in no way work. I found it odd since CTC optics are very associated with S&W. The came back a couple weeks later with a Holosun 507K and the C&H plate for the Shield Optic cut. The included screws wouldn’t work (too big) and when I checked with a MOS DPP plate they fit, so they’re M4 x 0.70mm metric screws. Luckily the stainless steel 6-32 x ½” screws I have worked with the Shield Plus threads so I installed the optic with those.

[JSGlock34]

Looks like FCD plates for Staccato are coming…

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

Good to hear JSG glad to support another Tx company, where did you see it?

[JSGlock34]

Post on ARFCOM (https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/MOS-owners-get-in-here-Better-plate-system-inside-/13-188416/?r=-1&page=41&anc=2345143#i2345200)...

[ssb]

SoCalDep

I elected to try the Romeo1Pro, largely due to various reports of agency adoption and your experiences in this thread. Thus far I’ve been quite pleased with it.

A few weeks ago I attended a training event and due to the weather I chose to shoot from my OWB belt setup rather than deal with hours of wet and cold, layers, and shock cords using concealment. My holster was a Safariland 6390 without the hood/optic guard (it came that way - would love to know where to find a replacement), which I believe may have been much of the problem. Anyhow, fifteen minutes in the downpour and the optic lens acted like a collection bucket for water. Firing did dislodge some of the water but certainly did not clear it. The glass looked kind of like frosted shower glass. The dot was probably a 20-30ish MOA blob with light scatter around it. After firing a few rounds, a slightly smaller blob. Another observation was that it does not appear that water has anywhere to go, due to the lack of drainage holes (I don’t know if this makes a substantial difference). I spent most of the day guarding the optic from the rain after this. For what it’s worth, I was able to shoot a fist-sized group at 7yds with the optic in this condition; I just wouldn’t want to do anything requiring precision when so distorted.

What has been your experience with the Romeo1Pro and your water immersion tests? Do you/your department have any procedures to mitigate the effects of rain/etc. when using open emitter optics?

Yes, I know the obvious solution to this issue is an ACRO P2 and that is on the list eventually, once Q5 of 202X finally arrives. After the P1, however, I’m not rushing to be an early adopter.

[SoCalDep]

SoCalDep

I elected to try the Romeo1Pro, largely due to various reports of agency adoption and your experiences in this thread. Thus far I’ve been quite pleased with it.

A few weeks ago I attended a training event and due to the weather I chose to shoot from my OWB belt setup rather than deal with hours of wet and cold, layers, and shock cords using concealment. My holster was a Safariland 6390 without the hood/optic guard (it came that way - would love to know where to find a replacement), which I believe may have been much of the problem. Anyhow, fifteen minutes in the downpour and the optic lens acted like a collection bucket for water. Firing did dislodge some of the water but certainly did not clear it. The glass looked kind of like frosted shower glass. The dot was probably a 20-30ish MOA blob with light scatter around it. After firing a few rounds, a slightly smaller blob. Another observation was that it does not appear that water has anywhere to go, due to the lack of drainage holes (I don’t know if this makes a substantial difference). I spent most of the day guarding the optic from the rain after this. For what it’s worth, I was able to shoot a fist-sized group at 7yds with the optic in this condition; I just wouldn’t want to do anything requiring precision when so distorted.

What has been your experience with the Romeo1Pro and your water immersion tests? Do you/your department have any procedures to mitigate the effects of rain/etc. when using open emitter optics?

Yes, I know the obvious solution to this issue is an ACRO P2 and that is on the list eventually, once Q5 of 202X finally arrives. After the P1, however, I’m not rushing to be an early adopter.

Sorry for the delayed response...

It sounds to me like your optic was affected more by condensational fogging than by the rainwater itself. First off, I'm no weather expert... I live in South-Central California and work in Southern California... That means when it rains the public runs screaming for cover and panemonium ensues. Because of this much of what I know about weather and its effect on optics comes from experimentation. That said, we have had some good rain (and snow where I live) over the past few years so there's that. Still, it's nowhere near what some others here have dealt with so input from others would be beneficial as well.

Water (other than condensation) impacts performance of our optics in three ways. First, if the optic is not water resistant or is defective, it makes the optic fail (I've seen them just die, others have water intrusion into the emitter area which results in a distorted image of the reticle, etc.). At first I felt bad for squirting water on the student's optics and breaking them, but now I pre-warn them that I'd rather have the optic fail in the class than in the field. Of all the optics we've exposed to water I think there's been two that had distortion in the emitter and one that died. So, not so common.

The second and more obvious impact is water on the optic window. With rain, this is going to be in the form of drops. Fogging is a different thing. Much of the water will fall away as the pistol is presented and there should be clear areas of the optic window one can use to find the dot... If there is a dot.

The third impact is blocking the emitter which can result in a distorted image, multiple images, a red (or green) haze on the window, or nothing. In this case, one should revert to iron sights or, if time allows, give the optic a shake to see if they can dislodge the water from the emitter area.

As you mentioned, Trijicon has generous holes in the sides of the optic body to allow water to drain away from the emitter. Holosun open-emitter optics have much smaller holes. Leupold DeltaPoint Pro and Sig optics don't have drain holes. I have found that sometimes the water doesn't affect the latter any more than the former, but sometimes it's significantly worse. It's not something that can't be dealt with by (as you mentioned) holsters and treatments and backup iron sights, but it's enough that I don't use Sig optics and my Deltapoints are either on offset rifle mounts or on fun guns.

Even being in CA, I still like closed emitter optics enough that my everyday carry gun is an M&P 2.0 frankengun with a 4.25" upper on a compact frame. It sports an ACRO. My duty M&P has an ACRO P-2 and my duty Glock 45 (for when I change my mind... again) has a Holosun 509T.

So now let's add condensation to the picture. Condensation occurs when a surface is below the temperature of the dewpoint. The dewpoint is the temperature where the air can no longer hold any more water and condensation in the form of dew or frost occurs. This is what causes the "fogging" that we see on optic windows. It can occur due to the weather itself, or "micro-climates". If an optic's temperature is close to the dewpoint, simply grabbing the optic to rack the slide or placing the optic in an IWB holster can result in fogging because body heat and humidity cause the dewpoint in that immediate area to rise. This can also occur by going from cold (outside) to indoors or into a heated vehicle. It is why when it's cold and raining or snowing glasses can fog.

Since condensational fogging occurs when something is colder than the dewpoint, car defrosters apply heat to the windows... This brings the window's temperature above the dewpoint and allows the little micro-droplets of water to evaporate away.

I think your bigger problem (and may be wrong) wasn't so much the rain but the condensation. It can occur on the window (occlusion) and it can occur on the emitter which can distort the dot as you experienced or make it go away altogether. That's why I prefer to use anti-fog treatments rather than things like Rain-X on open emitter optics. I can deal with the rain but don't want fogging. If you use an anti-fog like Cat Crap, don't forget to treat the emitter window as well and it probably requires frequent re-applications (I'd say at minimum every few days). One of the few reported cases of fogging from field use on my department involved moving from cold, rainy outside into a heated patrol vehicle. The fogging was minimal and the dot on the RMR was still visible, but it had been about two weeks since his last application of Cat Crap. Again, there are those out there with more experience than me due to being in a wetter and/or colder climate.

Lastly, don't make the mistake of trying to use both Rain-X and an anti-fog. They work in opposite ways (Hydrophobic vs. Hydrophillic) and trying to use both can have very adverse results. Ask me how I know.

[GJM]

Posting this here, in case you are mounting optics to the 320.

I recently bought two plates for the 320 with the PRO/RMR cut for the RMR/SRO/507. You need to specify Trijicon or Holosun when ordering to get the proper length screws.

First kit was for the SRO, and arrived with two sets of screws. I picked the longer ones, since I was mounting a Trijicon. Using those screws, I couldn't chamber a round, and quickly figured out that the right screw was impinging on the channel with the spring. Went to the short screws, and all worked.

This week, I received a kit for the Holosun. Two sets of screws were included and I used the shorter ones. Same problem, wouldn't chamber a round. I looked into the stripped slide with a light, and could see the screw impinging in the hole. Have now filed the right screw down, and function seems proper. Just provided this feedback to CHPWS.

[Oldherkpilot]

Every time I read one of your posts, I feel like I ought to send you a check for the lesson! Thanks!

[SoCalDep]

It’s been a couple weeks with a few classes and some more optic mounting experiences. This is going to be a three-parter, so I apologize for the TLDR as the kids like to say…

We held a department pistol optic class on Dec 20-21 with 15 students. Fourteen of them were from our department and one was from a large city PD. Pistols/Optics were as follows:

M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 509T
Glock 19MOS / Holosun 508T
Glock 17 / Trijicon RMR – Manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 407C
Staccato P-DPO / RMR – Manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / RMR – Manual
Sig P226 Legion / Romeo1 Pro
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 Compact 4” O.R. / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / RMR – Manual
Staccato P-DPO / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Trijicon SRO
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Trijicon SRO

Pistols functioned fine. Ammo is still sketchy enough to keep those malfunction clearance skills sharp. We had a 509T that was mounted on an M&P 2.0 do something weird. When I mounted it a couple weeks prior to the class it was functioning normally (I check every time I mount an optic and note it on the worksheet). When the student arrived he said his optic wasn’t working. I figured it was a bad battery and replaced it. Still nothing. I tried switching from manual to auto (or vice-versa) and still nothing. I changed the mode and a circle-only appeared, which is interesting since the original 509T (which this was) only does dot and circle dot.

I eventually realized that the reason the optic was not “working” in dot-only was that the dot reticle was gone. So when switched to the circle-dot only a circle was visible and nothing when switched to the other mode. He completed the class with the circle and will be taking care of it through warranty.

We also had a 508T come loose on a Staccato at the end of day 1, but the user installed it himself and did not use our methods. It was re-installed by me and he completed the rest of the class without issue.

One additional student found his optic loose the day after class, but I’ll discuss that more in part 3.

The next pistol optic class was on January 3-4, and we had 11 students from our department. Pistols/Optics were as follows:

Glock 17MOS / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 5087C ACSS
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Trijicon RMR – manual

So there’s an obvious trend… RMR and Holosun of various flavors. Everyone who shoots the SRO loves it, but in talking to our people and other cops, it’s just not as trusted as the RMR. With that said; “HEY TRIJICON!!! WHERE IS THE RMR/SRO LOVECHILD WITH THE RMR PROFILE AND TOP-LOAD BATTERY?!?!?!

It’s no secret I like closed emitters for duty and carry, but I LOVE my Holosun 407CO on the range. I say on the range because it’s awesome if I’m wearing my glasses or contacts and it’s decent without in bright sunlight but in anything else it’s a huge blur. I want a more dependable reticle (for my screwed up eyes) on a duty optic. I shot an M&P with an ACRO P-2 on the first day and my main training M&P with an Apex barrel, Springer mag well, and the 407CO on day two. I have another Apex waiting to be installed in the P-2 gun.

On day 1 we did our usual glare exposure and I had the same experience as GJM with lots of false dots, but I run my optic on a specific brightness all the time, and I had no problem telling which was the real dot and which was the false one. I’m not sure why that is because it’s not the same with my SRO. Here’s a pic that clearly shows a false dot but it looks worse in the pic (to me) than in reality.
https://i.imgur.com/poTgPWV.jpg?1

We had no issues with guns or optics during the class.

[SoCalDep]

On a slightly different but related subject (as there have been discussions here in the past on using lasers as backups to optics), I held a laser pistol class on the 28th of December. It was enlightening on a few levels. Back in October when I took the Tacflo Ballistic Shield class we did some work with lasers and I could clearly see their application both inside structures and for awkward angle work, let alone with shields.

I’ve been a fan of lasers since taking a LE laser class hosted by Crimson Trace with Clyde Caseres (Their Director of Training back then I believe) in 2001 before I entered law enforcement. I was working at a big gun store and we were going to carry CTC grips, so they wanted buy-in from some key members of the sales staff. I thought lasers were a gimmick, but I left the class and immediately bought one. I was in the second laser class put on for our department, having less than six months on the job. I carried lasers on patrol, both on duty guns and backup guns, and upon becoming a full-time firearm instructor I did a lot of technique development, practice, and personal data collection on the use of lasers. Of course, in the last several years my interest in, and belief in the utility of lasers has waned a bit, particularly with the development of LE pistol optics.

I do think lasers can still have their place, so when the opportunity arose to teach an 8hr laser class I took it. It was a small class but that was a benefit as this was the first time I’ve presented this curriculum so it was somewhat of an “experiment” that I found to be very successful.

Pistols / Lasers were as follows:

S&W M&P 2.0 / Crimson Trace Lasergrips (also equipped with Surefire X300U)
HK45C / Streamlight TLR-8G
M&P 2.0 / Streamlight TLR-10
M&P 2.0 / Surefire X400U with DG pressure switch
I used a Glock 17MOS with an RMR (6.5MOA) and a Streamlight TLR-2G.

I started by zeroing everyone’s laser in relation to their iron sights indoors at 10 yards with cleared guns in a safe direction. Then there was about 45 min of PowerPoint lecture covering law, liability, policy, and various aspects of using lasers from tactical application to advantages and drawbacks.

On the range I reinforced the fact that a laser is a supplemental sighting system and the iron sights (or dot) are still the primary sights. I went over fundamentals, activation, and we did various drills and exposures to different colored clothing and surfaces, as well as various distances to targets, to explore the visibility and applicability of the laser during daylight and in low light.

Here are some of my takeaways based on my experience running the laser with a dot, and watching the students run lasers with iron sights. It also includes some recent practice sessions to prepare for the class and my experience over time:

1. Lasers are FAST in dark conditions. I think I’m faster with a laser than with a dot and I’m pretty fast with a dot. Being able to see the laser dot prior to bringing the pistol to eye level while remaining target focused is like the best of irons (seeing them before full presentation) and a dot.
2. Lasers are not fast in daylight. In fact they suck. Even green lasers are hard to find quickly beyond very close range and depending on the type or color of clothing the dot can be difficult if not impossible to see… even green. Since it’s daytime about half the time, the laser is unacceptable to be the primary aiming tool.
3. Activation can be non-intuitive and requires practice to perform under stress, especially the electronic switches such as those on the Surefire XC2 and Streamlight TLR-8 and 10. Without that practice, the need to activate the laser significantly delays the ability to come on target and shoot. I also saw manipulation failures where the student pushed too long and thinking they activated the constant, actually were in momentary and turned off the laser when they released the switch, creating a delay as they had to remember to re-activate or switch to irons.
4. Lasers can loose zero, batteries can fail, electronics can fail, and they can be mounted incorrectly. While we’ve worked hard to mitigate these issues with pistol optics and they’ve become pretty dependable, lasers are less popular and therefore in spite of over 20 years of experience running lasers, I don’t have answers for a lot of the potential failures.
5. Lasers are not as precise as iron sights or a dot due to difficulty in making precise adjustments (no clicks) and offset/trajectory issues. For precision or distance, use irons or dot.
6. Laser offset at close range (especially for light/laser units that place the laser below the light) can be confusing, especially when dot shooters and rifle shooters are used to the opposite offset.
7. Lasers have use other than simply as a sight such as for marking (“He’s firing from the window where my laser is circling guys!”).
8. Lasers are great for awkward positions such as reaching over obstacles, entanglement, and very close range shooting, especially inside structures where one can’t get the gun in front of their face.
9. I’m not sold on the “intimidation” factor. I’ve had it work great and I’ve had it not work at all. Worth a try? Maybe.
10. Activation method is a big thing and will determine applicability and usefulness. Depending on the specific laser system used and what one wants to do with it may mean a serious training/practice learning curve. In addition to the activation issues I discussed in #3, one student who had a very aggressive forward support hand grip repeatedly changed the mode (light/laser/light and laser) during firing and had to work consciously on changing his grip. I’ve also noticed this when trying to activate the TLR-2 toggle using the Frank Proctor rocking method for WML toggle-switch activation.

From my perspective running the laser with an optic, I like the idea of having it there but would normally run it as light-only and use it as more of a tactical tool than a low-light sighting device. Optics are more reliable, easier to zero, more precise, useable across all lighting conditions, always on, and don’t have the potential to give away one’s position like a laser does. Holster compatibility can also be difficult.

Ultimately, I do think a laser can be a beneficial addition to a pistol given an understanding of what it can and can’t do. I still think a laser is great on backup revolvers and I’d throw one on a self CCW gun in a second, especially if it had a pressure switch and if I wasn’t running a WML. It has niche uses for home defense and law enforcement but requires training to best take advantage of it and to understand what it doesn’t do well. In fact, 8 hours was just enough to show the students some basics, provide guidance for practice and continued skill-building, and expose weaknesses.

Gratuitous Pictures:
https://i.imgur.com/0zDzvq3.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/oUWA3wj.jpg?1

[SoCalDep]

Since my last update post on December 14, I mounted a total of 18 optics. This included the following:

8 RMRs
7 Holosuns (Two 507Cs, four 509Ts, and a 508T)
2 Aimpoint ACROs (One P-1 and a P-2 – Both on my M&Ps)
1 Sig Romeo Zero

The pistols they went on were:

13 M&P 2.0 Optic Ready (Seven 4.25” (including mine) and six 5” barrels)
2 Glocks
2 Staccatos
1 Sig P365XL

On one of the M&Ps with a 509T the screws included with the C&H plate were M4 metric and did not fit the slide. I had compatible screws so no big deal, but this is the second plate set from them in the last month that came with the wrong screws. The other one was a Shield Plus plate that also came with metric screws (The Shield Plus threads are 6-32).

As I mentioned in part 1, a 507C came loose on a Staccato P-DPO at the end of the first day of the Dec 20-21 class. It had been installed by the user. I re-installed per our method and he completed day 2 with no issues.

A student brought his M&P/509T in the day after the class because he found the optic was loose. I had installed the optic over a month and a half prior. As I noted on the original worksheet, I had degreased everything when I mounted the optic. The optic was still tight to the plate, but the plate was loose on the slide. There was lots of oil on the internals of the pistol. When I removed everything there was oil all over the mounting pocket and bottom of the plate. I degreased everything with Gun Scrubber and went to re-install. There was no wear on the bottom of the plate where it interacts with the raised bosses on the slide but there seemed to be more play in the plate compared to factory plates and other 509T plates I’ve seen. I’m wondering if the excessive play coupled with oil intrusion into the area between the plate and slide allowed movement resulting in the left screw coming loose (the right was still tight). I’m not entirely sure though.

Three of the M&Ps had extractor pins that were proud of the optic pocket. I tapped them in with a roll-pin punch and all was good but it’s something to check prior to attempting to mount an optic.
https://i.imgur.com/UpSIl70.jpg?1

I have two C&H ACRO plates for the M&P 2.0. When I went to install the P-2 on my pistol the plates didn’t seem to want to sit flush with the optic pocket, even when tightened down, and without the screws, even pushing down hard I could slide the plate right and left in the pocket. I’m not sure what the deal is but I mounted the P-2 with the Aimpoint plate which felt like a much better fit. I’m going to mess around with the plates with another M&P slide as soon as one comes in to see if it’s a plate issue or a slide compatibility issue.

Lastly, an HK USP45 was brought in because the TLR-2 laser had lost it's zero. Since I talked about lasers earlier I figured I'd throw this one in. Upon looking at the TLR-2 I immediately found that it was loose. Then I noticed the Surefire rail was loose. I removed the TLR-2 and rail and found one of the rail's screws had sheared. Since these rails are no longer made I advised the person to bring the rail to our armorer to have the sheared screw removed. I measured the other screw and ordered replacements from McMaster-Carr which arrived on Friday. Hopefully once the sheared screw is removed he'll bring it back and we can see about getting things fixed. This just illustrates that lasers, much like optics, are not simple plug and play things.

[BobM]

I had a Laser grip on my duty M&P40 some years ago. I still don’t see it listed for the 2.0 and never tried to see if it would fit. If I can find it I’ll try it.

[SoCalDep]

I had a Laser grip on my duty M&P40 some years ago. I still don’t see it listed for the 2.0 and never tried to see if it would fit. If I can find it I’ll try it.

It should fit. The old CTCs fit the 2.0 my fellow instructor was using in the class.

[Lon]

Lasers are much derided and mocked, but everyone I’ve ever heard mock them has never spent time learning their advantages and disadvantages. I ran a set of CT grips for years on my duty pistol. Fast as hell indoors and in low light. I used to compete in open class in a local indoor match with my 228/CTC grips. I had no issues keeping up with good shooters shooting full custom 2011 race guns.

But like any aiming system, you have to practice with them to get good with them. They are not a magic talisman that turns a shitty shooter into a M class shooter. Unfortunately most people who buy them don’t understand that and are trying to fix a software problem by buying new hardware.

[NH Shooter]

A student brought his M&P/509T in the day after the class because he found the optic was loose. I had installed the optic over a month and a half prior. As I noted on the original worksheet, I had degreased everything when I mounted the optic. The optic was still tight to the plate, but the plate was loose on the slide. There was lots of oil on the internals of the pistol. When I removed everything there was oil all over the mounting pocket and bottom of the plate. I degreased everything with Gun Scrubber and went to re-install. There was no wear on the bottom of the plate where it interacts with the raised bosses on the slide but there seemed to be more play in the plate compared to factory plates and other 509T plates I’ve seen. I’m wondering if the excessive play coupled with oil intrusion into the area between the plate and slide allowed movement resulting in the left screw coming loose (the right was still tight). I’m not entirely sure though.

As I described in this post (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?51098-Rear-BUIS-in-front-or-in-back-of-MRDS&p=1304663&viewfull=1#post1304663), I have experience bedding scope bases to rifle actions. I am going to use a variation of this process when I mount the plate on my PPQ, which I will document with photos. This should happen in a few months, but I am very confident the plate won't come loose under any circumstances using this method.

[Erick Gelhaus]

... but I am very confident the plate won't come loose under any circumstances using this method.

Looking forward to seeing your results. Thank you.

[SoCalDep]

As I described in this post (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?51098-Rear-BUIS-in-front-or-in-back-of-MRDS&p=1304663&viewfull=1#post1304663), I have experience bedding scope bases to rifle actions. I am going to use a variation of this process when I mount the plate on my PPQ, which I will document with photos. This should happen in a few months, but I am very confident the plate won't come loose under any circumstances using this method.

I read your other post and I'm looking forward to seeing your experience with this.

The forces acting upon a pistol optic are substantially more severe than rifle recoil. I would be a little concerned that the JB Weld's PSI is significantly less than the rating of the screws we use, and depending on the mixture of the two components, cure time, thickness, etc., could act as more of a gasket allowing movement than a bonding agent holding everything together.

Then there's the issue of being able to change optics for new technology or to go a different route and I'm not sure how practical this method would be for most people. That said, if it works and holds everything together, and one has no intention of changing optics this could be a way to go. The larger coverage area could somewhat make up for the lower psi but I'm no engineer so this is just guessing.

[GJM]

The factory plate system on the PPQ/Q5 is extremely robust.

[NH Shooter]

I read your other post and I'm looking forward to seeing your experience with this.

The forces acting upon a pistol optic are substantially more severe than rifle recoil. I would be a little concerned that the JB Weld's PSI is significantly less than the rating of the screws we use, and depending on the mixture of the two components, cure time, thickness, etc., could act as more of a gasket allowing movement than a bonding agent holding everything together.

Then there's the issue of being able to change optics for new technology or to go a different route and I'm not sure how practical this method would be for most people. That said, if it works and holds everything together, and one has no intention of changing optics this could be a way to go. The larger coverage area could somewhat make up for the lower psi but I'm no engineer so this is just guessing.

All valid concerns!

Full disclosure, I'm going to need both the plate and milled slide in-hand before I know exactly how I'll go about this. I have neither at this point so I'm making some assumptions. Only a minimum amount of bedding material is used, and only in spots it will be helpful. So unless the plate sits in the pocket (no screws) with absolutely zero wiggle, this procedure will be beneficial.

In a perfect world, the plate would fit in the milled pocket perfectly, as if the plate and slide were a single piece. Since this is generally not possible with mass produced parts, I have to believe there will be some "wiggle room" between the two due to manufacturing and machining tolerances. If there is any fore-and-aft play between the two, all recoil forces are transferred to those tiny screws as the slide reciprocates. Yes, the plate is held from moving by the compressive friction between the bottom of the plate and the pocket, but the screws are providing the compression for that friction.

As we all know, if the screws loosen so does the plate.

So the primary purpose of "bedding" the plate is to entirely remove any gap (especially on the front and back edges) between the plate and pocket. The goal is to pass the recoil forces directly into the slide, and not have to depend on the screws to directly or indirectly bear the brunt of that task (think of how a recoil lug in a bolt action rifle passes the energy directly to the stock). So right now, I'm thinking the judicious use of JB Weld will be primarily on the front and back edges of the plate to fill any gap between the two. I'm also thinking some will go in the recesses machined on both sides of the pocket that engage the lugs on the bottom of the plate.

The secondary benefit of bedding - if one forgoes the use of release agent - is that the compressive "friction hold" between plate and the milled pocket is supplemented with direct bonding at the points the bedding material is used. Between eliminating any movement of the plate in the pocket and the direct bonding of the two, the stress on the screws is almost entirely eliminated.

However, the screws are still used! The only place release agent will be used (as a precaution) is on the screw threads so that once the bedding is set, the screws can be removed. The screws and tappings are then cleaned and the screws reinstalled with thread locker and torqued to the correct value as per normal procedure.

But what if I want to change the plate? Parts bonded with JB Weld can be separated with the application of heat. It takes a lot more heat than a slide (or a bolt action rifle receiver) will ever be subject to in normal use, but not so much as to damage the plate or slide (think of how hot a barrel can get with bursts of full auto). I use a small map gas torch to apply heat until the parts can be separated with the tap of a hammer, and the residual JB Weld scraped off.

So in summary the goal is to reduce dependence on the just the screws to keep the plate from moving by perfectly mating the plate to the pocket. IMO this an ideal application for this procedure, which I believe will eliminate any possibility of a plate coming loose. I will certainly document the procedure once I have everything needed to proceed.

[Controlledpairs2]

This is fascinating. My 2011 with a Chambers custom RDSM plate is installed with a layer of loctite between the plate and slide to remove moisture and add robustness (not sure which kind of green). The plate sits tight in the milled pocket with 4 screws. I assumed the layer of loctite added a substantial amount of security. The Chambers RDSM plate is the only one I have yet to see come loose but my personal experience is limited to 6000 rounds.

[Controlledpairs2]

1. Lasers are FAST in dark conditions. I think I’m faster with a laser than with a dot and I’m pretty fast with a dot. Being able to see the laser dot prior to bringing the pistol to eye level while remaining target focused is like the best of irons (seeing them before full presentation) and a dot.
2. Lasers are not fast in daylight. In fact they suck. Even green lasers are hard to find quickly beyond very close range and depending on the type or color of clothing the dot can be difficult if not impossible to see… even green. Since it’s daytime about half the time, the laser is unacceptable to be the primary aiming tool.
3. Activation can be non-intuitive and requires practice to perform under stress, especially the electronic switches such as those on the Surefire XC2 and Streamlight TLR-8 and 10. Without that practice, the need to activate the laser significantly delays the ability to come on target and shoot. I also saw manipulation failures where the student pushed too long and thinking they activated the constant, actually were in momentary and turned off the laser when they released the switch, creating a delay as they had to remember to re-activate or switch to irons.
4. Lasers can loose zero, batteries can fail, electronics can fail, and they can be mounted incorrectly. While we’ve worked hard to mitigate these issues with pistol optics and they’ve become pretty dependable, lasers are less popular and therefore in spite of over 20 years of experience running lasers, I don’t have answers for a lot of the potential failures.
5. Lasers are not as precise as iron sights or a dot due to difficulty in making precise adjustments (no clicks) and offset/trajectory issues. For precision or distance, use irons or dot.
6. Laser offset at close range (especially for light/laser units that place the laser below the light) can be confusing, especially when dot shooters and rifle shooters are used to the opposite offset.
7. Lasers have use other than simply as a sight such as for marking (“He’s firing from the window where my laser is circling guys!”).
8. Lasers are great for awkward positions such as reaching over obstacles, entanglement, and very close range shooting, especially inside structures where one can’t get the gun in front of their face.
9. I’m not sold on the “intimidation” factor. I’ve had it work great and I’ve had it not work at all. Worth a try? Maybe.
10. Activation method is a big thing and will determine applicability and usefulness. Depending on the specific laser system used and what one wants to do with it may mean a serious training/practice learning curve. In addition to the activation issues I discussed in #3, one student who had a very aggressive forward support hand grip repeatedly changed the mode (light/laser/light and laser) during firing and had to work consciously on changing his grip. I’ve also noticed this when trying to activate the TLR-2 toggle using the Frank Proctor rocking method for WML toggle-switch activation.

From my perspective running the laser with an optic, I like the idea of having it there but would normally run it as light-only and use it as more of a tactical tool than a low-light sighting device. Optics are more reliable, easier to zero, more precise, useable across all lighting conditions, always on, and don’t have the potential to give away one’s position like a laser does. Holster compatibility can also be difficult.

Ultimately, I do think a laser can be a beneficial addition to a pistol given an understanding of what it can and can’t do. I still think a laser is great on backup revolvers and I’d throw one on a self CCW gun in a second, especially if it had a pressure switch and if I wasn’t running a WML. It has niche uses for home defense and law enforcement but requires training to best take advantage of it and to understand what it doesn’t do well. In fact, 8 hours was just enough to show the students some basics, provide guidance for practice and continued skill-building, and expose weaknesses.


Great post. Did you ever find yourself confused or slow to find your laser when there were teammates or multiple lasers in play? This has always slowed me down slightly under NODS/IR use around teammates and my laser setting wasn't high enough to create the lightsaber effect. I assume the daylight lasers wouldn't be able to achieve this unless it was really smoky.

[SoCalDep]

Great post. Did you ever find yourself confused or slow to find your laser when there were teammates or multiple lasers in play? This has always slowed me down slightly under NODS/IR use around teammates and my laser setting wasn't high enough to create the lightsaber effect. I assume the daylight lasers wouldn't be able to achieve this unless it was really smoky.

I would agree with your experience, especially since you generally don’t have close focus with NODS to be able to revert to irons. Even passive aiming with an optic gives you a “dot” to somewhat match everyone else’s.

I’ll throw out that I’ve not had to worry much about multiple dots because most people never ran them so there were rarely more than one or two on scene. That said, we discuss this in training and the simple answer for confusion using the visible lasers is to simply switch to the primary sight (irons or dot).

[SoCalDep]

Since my last post on January 9th we’ve done 5 classes… Three department classes, a private LE-only class hosted by a Sheriff’s Department and attended by members of several different agencies, and a private LE-only firearm instructor course. As always (or mostly), there’s some mounting stuff to talk about (I’ll hit that in a separate post) and some interesting (at least for me) observations.

I’ll start with a department class from January. There were thirteen students in the class which included three outside agency students who came from two different police departments.

Pistols and optics used were as follows:

M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 507C
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Trijicon RMR- manual
Staccato P-DPO / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Trijicon SRO
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 407C
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 CORE / Aimpoint ACRO P-1*
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro

*- The M&P/ACRO was borrowed. The student brought a Sig P226 Legion optic-ready gun with a C&H adaptor plate, but it was (I think) an older slide that didn’t have the additional threaded holes for the RMR pattern.

Four optics were found to be loose at the end of the first day. Three were mounted by the user. On one of them, VC-3 was used for threadlocker. It did it’s typical thing and didn’t work.

The other was a 509T that was mounted at our armory. The optic was loose on the plate but the plate was still secure to the slide. I’ve had some 509Ts come loose from the plate and I’ve started to remove the screw for the optic itself, degrease it and the optic threads, and use Loctite 248 in addition to the factory-applied locking compound. So far I’ve had good results but this one hadn’t had any 248 applied to the crossbolt. We re-mounted all the optics and they all held up through day #2. (***This portion of the post was written over a month ago, and I decided to leave it, but this has become a much more significant issue and will be discussed in a follow-up post)

Another student running an RMR (RM09) asked me to look at his optic toward the beginning of day #1. It wouldn’t turn off and would not dim past three or four steps down from full brightness. He’ll be dealing with Trijicon’s warranty and I’m sure they’ll take care of the problem. That said, I’ve never seen that before. He was able to complete the class with the optic and it worked fine other than the noted issues.

We did have some pistol malfunctions. One 5” M&P had multiple horizontal stovepipes. While our practice ammo is certainly not the most reliable, the fact his pistol alone had so many was concerning. He was advised to bring it to the armory for an inspection.

Lastly, I saw a malfunction that’s been discussed on this forum before, I believe by GJM and I kinda poopoo’d the concern since we’d used many SROs over tens of thousands of rounds and had never seen the malfunction. Well, I saw it on day #2. One student’s pistol malfunctioned where the casing became caught between the ejection port and the forward portion of the SRO optic body. I still think it’s rare, but it can/does happen. Here’s a pic:

https://i.imgur.com/IHoGC6x.jpg



The following documents pistols/optics in a private LE-only red-dot class we taught in January. Still two days and very similar curriculum. There were a total of 20 students from one state and various local agencies. This class was held in a very nice indoor range which allows for a very efficient yet “illuminating” low light block.

Pistols and optics used were as follows:

Sig P320 / Sig Romeo 1Pro
Glock / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Glock / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Walther PDP / Holosun 508T
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock / Trijicon RMR – auto adjust
Glock / Holosun 507C ACSS
Sig P320 / Sig Romeo 1Pro (day 1) and Staccato P-DPO / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro (day 2)
Glock / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Sig P320 / Aimpoint ACRO P-2
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Sig P320 / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Sig P320 / RMR – manual and PMM comped barrel
Sig P365XL / Holosun 507K
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock / Holosun 509T

As for instructors, we both shot our M&P 2.0s with Aimpoint ACRO P-2s and Apex barrels.

Once we got out on the range one student asked me to mount a Holosun 508T on their Sig P320. He had the appropriate C&H plate which came with two sizes of screws. I assumed that as with other C&H kits, the longer set was for the RMR and the shorter for the Holosun. I used the shorter set.

I mounted the optic using our procedure and all seemed well. When the user attempted to load, the pistol would not feed. The rim was caught under the extractor and we quickly figured out that the right screw was preventing movement of the extractor. Removing the optic allowed movement of the extractor and proper function. I checked the screws and they were both the same length.

I started to hunt for a shorter set of screws and tried the Holosun factory screws as well as shorter 6-32 screws they all started just fine with multiple rotations but then seemed to “stop” with lots of wiggle left in the optic. Since these screws were all shorter than the C&H screws, I found that odd. I tried metric screws and none of them fit. I didn’t want to try to force anything, and the student had a spare Romeo 1Pro so we installed that and he completed the course with no issues. I’m going to contact Sig and see what the deal is so I can be more prepared next time.

About halfway through day #2 the student with the Glock and Holosun 507C-ACSS discovered the optic was loose. I re-mounted it with new screws and he completed the course with no issues. He had mounted the optic himself previously.

The student with the RMR auto adjust did not like it at all in the low light block. Not only did it not adapt as well to WML use as he had expected it to, it flickered simply due to muzzle flash in the dark and he found its use distracting in all but completely stable lighting.

There were very few malfunctions and those that did occur were almost entirely user induced.



In early February we taught a private LE-Only firearm instructor school with 13 students from various local departments. Since the majority (9 of 13) of students ran optics, I figured it would be beneficial to include this class:

Glock 17 / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
Glock 17 / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock 19 / Iron Sights
Glock 19 / Iron Sights
Glock / Trijicon RMR – manual
Shadow Systems DR920 / Holosun 507C-GR
Glock 17 / Trijicon RMR – manual
Staccato P-DPO / Trijicon RMR – manual
Sig P320 / Sig Romeo 1Pro
Glock / Trijicon RMR – auto adjust
Sig P226 / Iron Sights
S&W M&P 5” / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock / Iron Sights

We had two optic issues in the class. The Trijicon RMR came loose on a student’s Staccato on the fourth or fifth day of the six-day class. It had been installed by him about a year and a half prior. We reinstalled and there were no further issues.

Both of us (instructors) were using M&Ps with Aimpoint ACRO P-2s and Apex barrels. On (I believe) the second to last day, the dot on my partner’s gun went dim. We tested the battery and it still had 3.03 volts, so something happened with the optic. I have been in contact with Aimpoint and they have been very helpful. These were pre-production sample optics, and from my understanding Aimpoint has already identified this problem, it's a relatively easy fix, and it shouldn’t be an issue with production models.



In mid February we did a department pistol optic class with 14 students. Twelve were from my department and two were from a local police department. Pistols/Optics:

FN FNX / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock 21 / Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock 45 / Trijicon SRO
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon SRO
Sig P226 Legion / Sig Romeo 1Pro
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon RMR – manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
Sig P226 Legion / Sig Romeo 1Pro
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Trijicon RMR – manual

Here are some issues that occurred:

One person showed up with a Holosun 509T mounted to an M&P with the S&W RMR plate, and the Holosun adaptor plate. It came loose within 20 rounds and nothing was tight. We re-mounted and let him complete the class. He had no further issues but he can’t use the pistol on duty until he gets a different mounting solution (read: C&H plate – more on that later) that allows use of the backup iron sights.

On day #2, the RMR came loose on the FN FNX. This pistol was used by a student from a different department. He’s had the optic on the pistol for a while. It had been mounted directly to the slide and after some research we found that there should be a plate. He had purchased the slide used and no plates were included. We re-mounted and he finished the class with no issues, but I forwarded him links on places where he could order the appropriate plate.

We had more of the super-frequent malfunctions with practice ammo and 5” M&Ps. Two of them. We had them start to run duty ammunition and there were no issues. The ammo causes issues with other guns, but the 5” M&Ps particularly hate it.

Both an instructor (Glock) and student (Sig P226) had rear iron sights shift.



The most recent department class we did had 14 students, all from our department. Pistols/Optics:

M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 407C
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 507C
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 407C
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon SRO
Staccato C2-DPO / Trijicon RMR – auto adjust
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon RMR - manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” /Trijicon RMR – manual
Glock 17 / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Trijicon RMR - manual
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 5” / Holosun 508T
M&P 2.0 O.R. 4.25” / Trijicon RMR – manual

One of the Holosun 509Ts would only function in “circle-dot” mode. When switched to the dot-only, the unit would simply turn off. This is similar to a malfunction we’ve seen in an earlier class, but in that class the dot wouldn’t work at all and the only reticle that functioned was the circle – so not quite the same.

Between day 1 and day 2, one of the Holosun 407Cs died. New batteries (tried two) didn’t help and the optic was declared deceased prior to the start of day 2. He borrowed an instructor's pistol and finished the course.

At the end of day 2, one of the Holosun 509Ts came loose. The optic was still tight to the plate but the plate was loose on the slide. This is becoming a significant issue and I’ll detail it more in the next post with a request for some input and feedback from the group.

[GJM]

Quick question for you -- if you eliminated plates and had all direct milled installations, what percentage of issues do you think would go away?

[MVS]

SoCalDep, if I haven't thanked you for this great contribution before, thanks. What a great resource. Perhaps it is my institutional bias, but I can't imagine keeping track of all of those different duty combinations. Every agency by me of any size, say 15 or 20, has one specific issued duty pistol. Some of them, the one I worked at among the group, also had issued back up guns. It just escapes me why a department would go for all of that variation.

[SoCalDep]

SoCalDep, if I haven't thanked you for this great contribution before, thanks. What a great resource. Perhaps it is my institutional bias, but I can't imagine keeping track of all of those different duty combinations. Every agency by me of any size, say 15 or 20, has one specific issued duty pistol. Some of them, the one I worked at among the group, also had issued back up guns. It just escapes me why a department would go for all of that variation.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

I find that with smaller departments it's common to have a single issued pistol. For my department, it's less like a single entity and more like a whole bunch of different small parts. We have something around twenty eight patrol stations, forty two (or so) contract cities, rail lines, county services such as community colleges, county hospitals, buildings, and complexes, dozens of courthouses, a bunch of custody facilities, multiple full-time SWAT teams, search-and-rescue, an Emergency Services Detail that operates multiple Eurocopter Super Puma Helicopters staffed with pilots and tactical paramedics, both inland and ocean water-borne operations and every other thing you would imagine for LE (undercover special teams, narcotics, etc.)

Our jurisdiction encompasses environments that are just about as varied. This includes mountains and a ski resort, deserts, vast urban areas, VERY rural areas, coastal communities, and the department even patrols a city on an island off the pacific coast.

All this to say, we have a lot of people with a lot of needs and a lot of opinions. Rather than replace a pistol or piece of equipment every time leadership wants something new, or someone needs something different, we try to be responsive to what will fill the niche by adding optional platforms. If one wants to run the issued equipment, which most do, then they have good equipment. If one wants something different to fit their needs, we have the logistical support to allow them to do that.

Directly on the subject of optics... Getting a department with around 10,000 - 11,000 armed personnel to switch wholesale to an optic is an astronomical endeavor. Allowing it as an option where the department doesn't have to spend a poop-ton of money on it is way more realistic. Then the ship starts turning, and eventually bigger changes can take place.

[MVS]

I appreciate that. Thank you.

I find that with smaller departments it's common to have a single issued pistol. For my department, it's less like a single entity and more like a whole bunch of different small parts. We have something around twenty eight patrol stations, forty two (or so) contract cities, rail lines, county services such as community colleges, county hospitals, buildings, and complexes, dozens of courthouses, a bunch of custody facilities, multiple full-time SWAT teams, search-and-rescue, an Emergency Services Detail that operates multiple Eurocopter Super Puma Helicopters staffed with pilots and tactical paramedics, both inland and ocean water-borne operations and every other thing you would imagine for LE (undercover special teams, narcotics, etc.)

Our jurisdiction encompasses environments that are just about as varied. This includes mountains and a ski resort, deserts, vast urban areas, VERY rural areas, coastal communities, and the department even patrols a city on an island off the pacific coast.

All this to say, we have a lot of people with a lot of needs and a lot of opinions. Rather than replace a pistol or piece of equipment every time leadership wants something new, or someone needs something different, we try to be responsive to what will fill the niche by adding optional platforms. If one wants to run the issued equipment, which most do, then they have good equipment. If one wants something different to fit their needs, we have the logistical support to allow them to do that.

Directly on the subject of optics... Getting a department with around 10,000 - 11,000 armed personnel to switch wholesale to an optic is an astronomical endeavor. Allowing it as an option where the department doesn't have to spend a poop-ton of money on it is way more realistic. Then the ship starts turning, and eventually bigger changes can take place.

Thanks for the reply. Never would have thought of some of those things. I have no experience with bigger agency's (the Army is big, but a little different).

[SoCalDep]

Quick question for you -- if you eliminated plates and had all direct milled installations, what percentage of issues do you think would go away?

Most.

I don't think I could put a percentage on it because the more milled solutions the more we'd find the issues with those. Of course, I believe the issues would be way less common. I think milling for the individual optic is about as good as one can get in preventing mounting failure.

Obviously with milling you're a bit married to the footprint, it modifies the pistol, and it can always be done wrong (I know people who have had slides messed up by incorrect milling jobs. That said, it was always made right one way or another).

[Lon]

SoCalDep, if I haven't thanked you for this great contribution before, thanks. What a great resource. Perhaps it is my institutional bias, but I can't imagine keeping track of all of those different duty combinations. Every agency by me of any size, say 15 or 20, has one specific issued duty pistol. Some of them, the one I worked at among the group, also had issued back up guns. It just escapes me why a department would go for all of that variation.

I have always thought that agencies that give a variety of options are forward thinking. One option is rarely good for everyone. My first agency was a “this is your duty pistol and is also the only pistol you can carry off duty” type place. For most of the agency it (S&W 4044/4043/4046) was a horrible choice. Giving options is a little more challenging logistically speaking, but I think the benefits outweigh the logistic challenges.

[DaBigBR]

I have always thought that agencies that give a variety of options are forward thinking. One option is rarely good for everyone. My first agency was a “this is your duty pistol and is also the only pistol you can carry off duty” type place. For most of the agency it (S&W 4044/4043/4046) was a horrible choice. Giving options is a little more challenging logistically speaking, but I think the benefits outweigh the logistic challenges.

It's just so much more practical. Being caught in that "this is the gun" (and often the light and the holster, etc) mentality makes moving the boulder of change very challenging.

[Lon]

It's just so much more practical.

Agreed. But I’ve seen too many cases of where the one size fits all mentality being detrimental to certain shooters. Back when there were height and weight standards and there were no female officers the one size fits all made more sense.

[professor]

Agreed. But I’ve seen too many cases of where the one size fits all mentality being detrimental to certain shooters. Back when there were height and weight standards and there were no female officers the one size fits all made more sense.

The same agencies with the one gun for all, do not require the same size uniforms for all. And usually have different types of patrol vehicles for different responsibilities.

[HCM]

It's just so much more practical. Being caught in that "this is the gun" (and often the light and the holster, etc) mentality makes moving the boulder of change very challenging.

No.

It’s just so much lazier both literally and Intellectually.

Unfortunately too many people in LE have binary thinking. There are viable solutions in between f**k you one gun for everybody and the Helter skelter of “whatever the range master will approve.”

Our legacy agency, prior to the DHS merger, went from issued gun plus reasonable POW list to fuck you one gun for everyone and it was a shit show.

I work for an agency of 15k sworn. We have an authorized list of optional POW guns, all Sig and Glock striker fired 9mm. They all operate similarly so training issues are minimal. You can only add or swap out one POW per year and have two handguns @on the books” which minimizes the gun of the month club BS. We have an authorized list of lights, optics etc and a description of required and prohibited features for holsters.

Even if you stick with one make /caliber such as 9mm Glocks, what is the operational impact of someone buying their own G26/19/45/17/34 ?

I see how some of my co-workers shoot, if you’ve expended all your ammo to no effect or you couldn’t be bothered to carry an extra magazine or two because it’s “paranoid” I’m not giving you my ammo in a real fight so sharing mags is not a valid argument.

If we and other large agencies such as the FBI (13k Sworn) NYPD (40k sworn), LAPD (10k) etc can make reasonable choices work so can smaller agencies.

There are other benefits to allowing reasonable accommodation in choice of firearms. As a firearms instructor in the field as opposed to an Academy setting, the people I am training and qualifying are also the coworkers I may need to depend on in a gun fight. Do I want that person armed with a gun that is too big or too small for them with which they can barely qualify, Or a gun that allows them to shoot more effectively?

Conversely if we have someone who is unable to qualify, the fact that we have already made reasonable accommodation Via optional guns helps mitigate the subsequent argument that it is the gun rather than the shooter.

[DaBigBR]

No.

It’s just so much lazier both literally and Intellectually.

Perhaps it wasn't clear that I am against a single issued gun system and for reasonable choice and variety. I have been pushing the boulder, so to speak, in my agency for a decade and we are finally starting to see some motion.

[HCM]

Perhaps it wasn't clear that I am against a single issued gun system and for reasonable choice and variety. I have been pushing the boulder, so to speak, in my agency for a decade and we are finally starting to see some motion.

85676

All arguments you can use though.

As Gadfly can attest, the biggest issue is people buy cheap junk instead of the required ORM / duty grade gear.

The last range day I worked I had a guy with a malfunctioning P365 which is very unusual. Long story short the malfunctions were trace to an unauthorized aftermarket (pro mag )magazine which he bought because it was half the cost of an OEM magazine.

[ASH556]

SoCalDep

What round counts per day are you guys doing on average?

My primary reason for asking is a gut check against my own setup. I'm running MOS Glocks (19 and 45), with FCD plates and RMR's torqued to FCD specs, but with the chapstick blue loc-tite rather than the Vibra-Tite FCD includes. I ran the 45 through 952 rounds in 2 days at a Gabe White class in September. I've not had issues with either optic. The Ameriglo GL-470 rear slipped in the dovetail about halfway through TD2. I replaced irons on both pistols with Heinies w/set screw rears post class.

Secondarily I have a good friend who is at the end of his mil career and is teaching at a place in AL. I was at his house Saturday night putting together an AR for him and he was asking me what optics plates I was running saying theirs were "all failing." They're running Glocks mostly and he mentioned CHWPS plates, but doesn't know if that's what they all were.

Thanks for your insights!

[DaBigBR]

85676

All arguments you can use though.

As Gadfly can attest, the biggest issue is people buy cheap junk instead of the required ORM / duty grade gear.

The last range day I worked I had a guy with a malfunctioning P365 which is very unusual. Long story short the malfunctions were trace to an unauthorized aftermarket (pro mag )magazine which he bought because it was half the cost of an OEM magazine.

No worries, man.

We're getting there. We got a few chief that was willing to listen and that's really been a big help.

[GJM]

SoCalDep

Secondarily I have a good friend who is at the end of his mil career and is teaching at a place in AL. I was at his house Saturday night putting together an AR for him and he was asking me what optics plates I was running saying theirs were "all failing." They're running Glocks mostly and he mentioned CHWPS plates, but doesn't know if that's what they all were.

Thanks for your insights!

If ALL their plates are failing, the first thing I would want to know is what loctite are they using and how are they applying it.

[DaBigBR]

Secondarily I have a good friend who is at the end of his mil career and is teaching at a place in AL. I was at his house Saturday night putting together an AR for him and he was asking me what optics plates I was running saying theirs were "all failing." They're running Glocks mostly and he mentioned CHWPS plates, but doesn't know if that's what they all were.

Well you didn't ask me, but when you say C&H, my first thought is that they're using the provided VC3 and either not adequately prepping the threads and/or not allowing it enough time to set before screwing stuff together.

CHPWS is switching the included thread locker soon. Finally.

[AMC]

The last range day I worked I had a guy with a malfunctioning P365 which is very unusual. Long story short the malfunctions were trace to an unauthorized aftermarket (pro mag )magazine which he bought because it was half the cost of an OEM magazine.[/QUOTE]

I swear, the only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops.

[SoCalDep]

SoCalDep

What round counts per day are you guys doing on average?

The two day course ranges from around 1,000 to 1,200 rounds depending on how the class goes. As for mounting issues, there will be a more detailed post to follow, but failure can happen (but doesn’t have to) and we’re all still learning, including manufacturers of optics, pistols, and plates. I prefer no plates. That isn’t an option for me with my current employer so I’m trying to find the best solution within my restrictions.

My favorite Glock/RMR plate is the FCD and I feel they are exceptional. The tighter the fit the less that mounting variances cause issues. That said, good mounting on an MOS works great. C&H has their issues but I also think that’s part of them charging into the market like Leeroy Jenkins (and good-on-‘em!).

[Erick Gelhaus]

Pistols & Optics I saw …

Friday afternoon I finished up a second week at Gunsite, teaching a #350 Intermediate Pistol class with 19 students. I had two coaches (ass’t instructors) one with significant time working for an optics company.

1200 rounds of ball, 100 rounds of frangible; temps were in the 20s to 50s, with snow one evening.

85964

We had the following handguns on the line:
Springfield Armory 1911 9mm with a Trij RMR;
Sig Sauer M18 9mm with Sig Romeo1Pro
Sig Sauer P320 X-Carry with Sig Romeo1Pro
Stacatto P Duo with Holosun 509T
Glock 19 with Trij RMR
Glock 45 9mm with Holosun 508T (green)
Glock 45 9mm with Trij RMR
Glock 19 with Holosun 507_ (green)
Sig Sauer P320XF RXP 9mm with Sig Romeo1Pro
Glock 43X with Holosun 507K
S&W M&P 2.0 with Holosun **
Glock 17 with Holosun 508T **
Glock 17 with Bushnell RXS250 **

Glock 19
Springfield Armory Commander 9mm
STI Edge 5” 9mm
Colt Gunsite 1911 .45ACP
Glock 19
Glock 45 9mm
Glock 19 *
Glock 45 9mm
S&W M&P 1.0 9mm **

I carried & demo’d with an S&W M&P 2.0 9mm with an earliest production Aimpoint Acro; one coach used a Glock 34 with a pre-production Leupold DPP; the other used a Colt 1911a1. It's still very rare to see an Acro in classes here. I think that because of the issues with getting them, rather than anything else.

“*” this shooter had a limited production after-market trigger in his G19. While there have been a few hundred in pistols without issue, this one was the exception. The mere act of resetting (returning to the fire position) was nearly non-existent. It got worse over a couple of days. The fix was to strip all of the internals out of another Glock & use them to replace the internals in this one.
While others may have visited the onsite gunsmithy voluntarily, this is the only pistol I can recall that had to go there.


“**” S&W M&P 1.0 9mm, S&W M&P 2.0 with Holosun, Glock 17 with Holosun 508T, & Glock 17 with Bushnell RXS250 were all used by a single shooter. They started with renting the 1.0, then next day they went to the 2.0/Holosun which also had a thumb safety (forcing them to learn two new manipulations), Day 3 found them using their own G17/Holosun combo – I do not know who installed the optic or how it was done. The Holosun was extremely loose on the morning of Day #4, so we replaced it with the G17/Bushnell combo & the student finished the class with that.
The failure on the Holosun mounting was the only pistol-mounted optic encountered in the class.

Five out of nineteen shooters using 1911/2011 platforms stood out, it’s been a while since I’ve seen that many.

Having the majority of the shooters in a non-dot-centric class shooting dots was a first for me. However, I’m pretty sure this is the way of the future.

[Oldherkpilot]

The last range day I worked I had a guy with a malfunctioning P365 which is very unusual. Long story short the malfunctions were trace to an unauthorized aftermarket (pro mag )magazine which he bought because it was half the cost of an OEM magazine.

I swear, the only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops.[/QUOTE]

Do you know any airline pilots?😁

[1Rangemaster]

I swear, the only thing cheaper than a cop is two cops.

Do you know any airline pilots?😁[/QUOTE]

Or any Federal agents…? Sorry, couldn’t resist

Erick Gelhaus: your night firing image prompts this nerdy question-any negative issues from light reflecting off optic window from a handheld light? I’ve done a little work on a nearly blacked out indoor range, and I could “see” a potential issue if the light gets behind the optic.
OTOH, the optic for me gives a measurable reduction in response time to shoot as it takes sight focus out. A WML useful too, but that is another layer of training; one really could be in jeopardy searching with a WML for example.
I again sincerely appreciate your reports. It’s notable there was only a mounting failure in a week long class…

[Erick Gelhaus]

Erick Gelhaus: your night firing image prompts this nerdy question-any negative issues from light reflecting off optic window from a handheld light? I’ve done a little work on a nearly blacked out indoor range, and I could “see” a potential issue if the light gets behind the optic.
OTOH, the optic for me gives a measurable reduction in response time to shoot as it takes sight focus out. A WML useful too, but that is another layer of training; one really could be in jeopardy searching with a WML for example.
I again sincerely appreciate your reports. It’s notable there was only a mounting failure in a week long class…

Short answer: use a handheld light in a position that projects light over the optic or a WML.

Answering your question involves working around Rule #2 ("Never let your muzzle anything you aren't willing to destroy") issues. I've used WML on pistols since '99. On-duty every time I was in uniform (patrol, gang suppression, investigations, & court security now) and a lot for several years when off-duty for, uh, reasons. Unless one uses a hard low ready that doesn't muzzle anyone, a WML is problematic. It also requires enough spill to see the hands & what they have access to. A handheld lets one orient the muzzle one way while the light goes where needed.

When I teach low light, I like (& work) the flow from a moving, rotating FBI to Jaw/Temple (coming back to that) to Harries and maybe reverse Harries. FBI, Harries, and Reverse Harries all avoid illuminating the back of the optic. SF/Jaw Index really illuminates the back of the pistol & optic for me - to the point where it's unusable. Temple Index (with the handheld light not the pistol) projects the beam over the optic and downrange.

Does this answer it for you?

[1Rangemaster]

Yes, sir, it does-thank you.
The subtlety of the temple index as compared to the jaw/shoulder(w/a big light) is appreciated. I will do some work with that in practice.

[stinx]

last week I attended our states PMO instructor course, during the class I witnessed an Acro P-1 mounted on a sig P-320 .40 fail. The mounting screws sheered clean off causing the optic to fly of the gun and strike the officer in the forehead. The shooter stated the plates and screws were from Aimpoint. To many variable to know what the actual cause was. It was attention getting though. The shooter suffered a minor cut and was able to finish out the class with a spare gun and optic.

[1Rangemaster]

stinx:
Just commenting: that sounds like a failure to mount everything properly. If it was an Aimpoint plate setup, those were from B&T, unless SIG has plates(?)
Early on with my P-1, I had used “Vibratite”. Screws holding the plate-2-loosened. I caught it, reflected on the error of my ways, and now use Loctite 248. ACRO unit itself just has one screw and should be torqued.
Another reason to check gear(sight/plate movement)…or go direct mill.

[LockedBreech]

This thread is a good reminder. My Primary Arms Microprism came with loctite and I kinda just bypassed it for the time being because I wasn’t sure how much to use / how to apply because I don’t have much experience using optics. Gotta make sure to do that before I go shoot it, guess things rattling loose is a bigger issue than I thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JF1]

Since retiring, I spent more time with this last academy class that came through. One recurring malfunction I saw in two separate 320s from two different agencies is a failure to extract. Subjectively the extractor spring tension seemed weaker than other 320s in the class. Small sample and I’m not saying there’s a problem, but curious on what type of PM programs are agencies adopting for the 320s? Having been through wasted man hours with another manufacturer through different generations and upgrades, I don’t necessarily believe everything they say.

[Erick Gelhaus]

last week I attended our states PMO instructor course, during the class I witnessed an Acro P-1 mounted on a sig P-320 .40 fail. The mounting screws sheered clean off causing the optic to fly of the gun and strike the officer in the forehead. The shooter stated the plates and screws were from Aimpoint. To many variable to know what the actual cause was. It was attention getting though. The shooter suffered a minor cut and was able to finish out the class with a spare gun and optic.

The screws that bolt the plate into the slide? Or the cross bolt that attaches the optic to the mount?

[stinx]

The screws that bolt the plate into the slide? Or the cross bolt that attaches the optic to the mount?

Eric, it was the two screws that attach the mounting plate or optic to the slide. I only got a very quick look at I also need to edit my original post. I spoke with the lead instructor and the pistol involved was an M&P 2.0 in .40 ,not a 320. Not sure if it was a milled slide etc. I’m trying to get pictures.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Ok, another mounting plate failure. I'd be interested in whether or not the officer/the officer's org used a set procedure like SoCalDep has shared or something else.

[HCM]

This thread is a good reminder. My Primary Arms Microprism came with loctite and I kinda just bypassed it for the time being because I wasn’t sure how much to use / how to apply because I don’t have much experience using optics. Gotta make sure to do that before I go shoot it, guess things rattling loose is a bigger issue than I thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Assuming there is not already thread locker on the screws, degrease everything (screws and screw holes). Allow to dry.

Apply 1 drop threadlocker to each screw. More is not better. Allow to dry.

Install to recommended torque using a torque driver. Alternate when tightening like lug nuts on car wheel.

Don’t use torque drivers to loosen anything, it can damage the torque driver- use a regular wrench / key for loosening / removing.

[HCM]

Eric, it was the two screws that attach the mounting plate or optic to the slide. I only got a very quick look at I also need to edit my original post. I spoke with the lead instructor and the pistol involved was an M&P 2.0 in .40 ,not a 320. Not sure if it was a milled slide etc. I’m trying to get pictures.

My local PD (2k sworn) has has multiple optics fail on .40 cal M&Ps mounted via S&W CORE plates, including one I posted elsewhere on PF in which a Steiner MPS detached and hit an officer in the forehead. TLDR - this is a S&W CORE issue, not and Aimpoint issue.

[AMC]

My local PD (2k sworn) has has multiple optics fail on .40 cal M&Ps mounted via S&W CORE plates, including one I posted elsewhere on PF in which a Steiner MPS detached and hit an officer in the forehead. TLDR - this is a S&W CORE issue, not and Aimpoint issue.

S&W has a solution for this issue....at least for Aimpoints. I repeat the collective wisdom that factory milled rails instead of screw holes and plates, for an Aimpoint style mounting system, is the solution to all of this. Fortunately a few firearm manufacturers are coming around. Sig will be the last to do so, because they'd be competing against their own optics at that point.

[SoCalDep]

My local PD (2k sworn) has has multiple optics fail on .40 cal M&Ps mounted via S&W CORE plates, including one I posted elsewhere on PF in which a Steiner MPS detached and hit an officer in the forehead. TLDR - this is a S&W CORE issue, not and Aimpoint issue.

Do the CORE/ Optic Ready models come with ACRO footprint plates or were you using aftermarket such as C&H?

[HCM]

Do the CORE/ Optic Ready models come with ACRO footprint plates or were you using aftermarket such as C&H?

I believe they were using the Aimpoint /B&T plate.

They are trying to go 9mm, platform TBD.

[HCM]

S&W has a solution for this issue....at least for Aimpoints. I repeat the collective wisdom that factory milled rails instead of screw holes and plates, for an Aimpoint style mounting system, is the solution to all of this. Fortunately a few firearm manufacturers are coming around. Sig will be the last to do so, because they'd be competing against their own optics at that point.

Yes, Austin PD is supposed to go the factory milled slide with issued P2 route.

You are spot on re: SIG but at the federal level competing and writing contracts is a protracted and expensive process. Hence why so many federal agencies like to piggyback on existing contracts rather than writing their own.

I saw a movie once about a large agency with some sharp contracting people who wrote a contract for purchase of the “ SIG P320 system” instead of just SIG P320 firearms. Thus allowing purchase of P320 related items like pistol optics from SIG by amending the contract rather than having to re-compete everything.

[SoCalDep]

I believe they were using the Aimpoint /B&T plate.

They are trying to go 9mm, platform TBD.

Gotcha. We had issues with a few Aimpoint ACRO plates early on in 2020 but we were using VC-3 at that time to mount them. When we started running the P-2s back in July of 2021, we used the Aimpoint plate but with Loctite-248 and our more refined mounting procedures and had no issues for (I think) around 2,500 rounds on the first instructor's M&P CORE.

When the optic came back to me from the other instructor, I ordered a C&H plate for the ACRO/CORE with the intention of running that to avoid potential issues with the Aimpoint plate. Another instructor ordered one a few days later. Neither fits on any of the 5-6 pistols I've tried them on. The plate will not fit flush and there is a scary amount of light under the plate even when the screws are fully tightened. I ended up using the Aimpoint plate and using the same mounting procedures it hasn't given me any issues in around 2,000 rounds so far.

Of course, our M&Ps are 9mm so it's certainly not the pounding the mount would get from the .40.

We're starting to see some big issues with the C&H plates for the Holosun 509T as well, but only for the S&W CORE/Optic Ready pistols. The ACRO/509T works on other guns and with other plates, the M&P works fine with other optics and other plates, and other C&H plates work well.

Since the C&H plates for the ACRO and 509T have not been available all that long and people who are wanting an ACRO seem to be waiting for the P-2, we don't have any C&H ACRO/CORE plates in service right now besides the two I tried and possibly one other instructor who will be checking his next week (He doesn't remember if he used the C&H or Aimpoint plate). That's not the case with the 509T and there are a few dozen at least that we've mounted.

I'm waiting to hear back from C&H but our failure rate at this point is very high and kinda exploded over the past few weeks. We've been working hard to diagnose what is occurring. I did tests between Loctite-243 and 248 to see if 248 wasn't strong enough (it is but 243 is a bit stronger and more oil resistant - and messier), degreased the optic threads and crossbolt screw and added Loctite, inspected plates and slides with high magnification, and I've seen enough of a trend and examined enough failures that I think it's a similar problem as my two ACRO plates - a lack of correct engagement with the M&Ps recoil bosses. It's a bummer because the 509T is a very popular optic, the M&P is a very popular pistol on my department and right now the C&H plate is the only game in town for that combo.

[LockedBreech]

Assuming there is not already thread locker on the screws, degrease everything (screws and screw holes). Allow to dry.

Apply 1 drop threadlocker to each screw. More is not better. Allow to dry.

Install to recommended torque using a torque driver. Alternate when tightening like lug nuts on car wheel.

Don’t use torque drivers to loosen anything, it can damage the torque driver- use a regular wrench / key for loosening / removing.

I will save this for reference, much obliged HCM.

[GJM]

Gotcha. We had issues with a few Aimpoint ACRO plates early on in 2020 but we were using VC-3 at that time to mount them. When we started running the P-2s back in July of 2021, we used the Aimpoint plate but with Loctite-248 and our more refined mounting procedures and had no issues for (I think) around 2,500 rounds on the first instructor's M&P CORE.

When the optic came back to me from the other instructor, I ordered a C&H plate for the ACRO/CORE with the intention of running that to avoid potential issues with the Aimpoint plate. Another instructor ordered one a few days later. Neither fits on any of the 5-6 pistols I've tried them on. The plate will not fit flush and there is a scary amount of light under the plate even when the screws are fully tightened. I ended up using the Aimpoint plate and using the same mounting procedures it hasn't given me any issues in around 2,000 rounds so far.

Of course, our M&Ps are 9mm so it's certainly not the pounding the mount would get from the .40.

We're starting to see some big issues with the C&H plates for the Holosun 509T as well, but only for the S&W CORE/Optic Ready pistols. The ACRO/509T works on other guns and with other plates, the M&P works fine with other optics and other plates, and other C&H plates work well.

Since the C&H plates for the ACRO and 509T have not been available all that long and people who are wanting an ACRO seem to be waiting for the P-2, we don't have any C&H ACRO/CORE plates in service right now besides the two I tried and possibly one other instructor who will be checking his next week (He doesn't remember if he used the C&H or Aimpoint plate). That's not the case with the 509T and there are a few dozen at least that we've mounted.

I'm waiting to hear back from C&H but our failure rate at this point is very high and kinda exploded over the past few weeks. We've been working hard to diagnose what is occurring. I did tests between Loctite-243 and 248 to see if 248 wasn't strong enough (it is but 243 is a bit stronger and more oil resistant - and messier), degreased the optic threads and crossbolt screw and added Loctite, inspected plates and slides with high magnification, and I've seen enough of a trend and examined enough failures that I think it's a similar problem as my two ACRO plates - a lack of correct engagement with the M&Ps recoil bosses. It's a bummer because the 509T is a very popular optic, the M&P is a very popular pistol on my department and right now the C&H plate is the only game in town for that combo.

A year or two ago, I had chpws modify a CORE with their 509T plate and it came loose three times after three trips back to chpws, before their owner got involved and mounted it. I haven't shot enough through it to know if it works, but the CORE and the 509T seem problematic. I had Maple Leaf direct mill a non CORE M&P slide for the 509T.

[Oldherkpilot]

Assuming there is not already thread locker on the screws, degrease everything (screws and screw holes). Allow to dry.

Apply 1 drop threadlocker to each screw. More is not better. Allow to dry.

Install to recommended torque using a torque driver. Alternate when tightening like lug nuts on car wheel.

Don’t use torque drivers to loosen anything, it can damage the torque driver- use a regular wrench / key for loosening / removing.

Do you allow the threadlocker to dry in all applications, or just for installing optics? Hadn't heard this before. I use loctite on lots of thing, may as well get it right.

[HCM]

Do you allow the threadlocker to dry in all applications, or just for installing optics? Hadn't heard this before. I use loctite on lots of thing, may as well get it right.

Loctite can cure in place after installation but it cures faster this way. VC3 is supposed to dry first.

[1Rangemaster]

With the semisolid Loctite 248, I did not let that dry. No issues so far.
If the thread locker is a liquid, I think letting it dry first (before screwing in) is good. Two other things: the torque on the screw is important and we leave it alone(no live fire) for 24 hours if at all possible.

[Oldherkpilot]

Thanks to you both!

[HCM]

Last week I attended a one week firearms instructor recertification class for my agency, 4/5 days were dedicated to red dot pistol instructor development.

21 students, 17 running issued SIG P320s with the Romeo1PRO (R1P) and 4 POW Glock shooters with type 2 RMRs. 3 G17.4 MOS and one milled G19.4.

Round count was approximately 1,000 rounds most of which was on day 2 and 3. Rounds included Gold Dot for pass /fail quals, Winchester purple FMJ and Several hundred rounds of frangible.

As one would expect with competent shooters running stock service pistols with quality ammo, there were no optics or firearms failures / issues.

POI was industry standard stuff - benefits of the MRDS, finding the dot, occlude shooting, immediate action for optic malfunctions etc

Mounting optics was addressed. Basically degrease, use blue loctite if not already factory applied, tighten to 30 inch/lbs for the R1P, 12 inch/bs for the RMR.

Day 4 included 4 hours of force on force sparring with MRDS, about half of which was conducted in low light. 3/21 took SIM rounds to the lens of their WML. All three WML continued to function.

SIMMUNITION offers an optics ready P320C/M18 slide but we were advised they are “pricey.” Unlike other SIMs kits they don’t field strip like a standard P320. They have a unique install / removal process which involves unscrewing the barrel from the breechblock.

86628

86629

[DaBigBR]

I'll play...

Taught a red dot handgun transition class for my department the last two days. This was our third class for the rank and file with the first two going late last summer. We are limited to an outdoor range and a combination of factors beyond the Iowa winter kept us from doing more than those two despite approving personally owned guns and optics last Spring.

Class attendance was twelve officers, all from our agency. Service length ran from pretty green to 27 years with us. This was our first class that I would describe as "mixed skill level." The first couple were mainly enthusiasts, but this one mixed in a few people who struggle at the range and have been convinced to give it a shot.

Guns:
Glock 17 with 509T (x2)
Glock 19 with 407C Green
Glock 19 with 507C Green
Glock 19 with 509T
Glock 19 with RM06
Glock 34 with 509T
Glock 43X MOS with 507K
Glock 45 with 509T (x3)
Somehow my notes are missing a gun...

All the guns were Gen 5 MOS with the exception of the 43X (obviously) and one of the 19s that was milled by Maple Leaf. I shot a 17 Gen 5 MOS with Steiner MPS. The gun and optic were brand new and I wanted to start with a clean slate to show zeroing. The MPS seems very nice. C&H was kind enough to overnight me a T&E (preproduction) plate for it so I could use it for this class.

Round count was about 700 rounds over the two days. The officer with the 43X was one of the ones that struggles and I will hand it to her putting up with that gun and firing schedule. She is a detective and was convinced by somebody else that the 43X would be easier to shoot. It obviously is not. Weather was trash at 40s, overcast, and relatively windy.

We had two optic plates loosen up (17 with 509T and 19 with 509T). Both were installed by me previously with C&H plates, Loctite 242, acetone prep, etc. I consider myself meticulous about the installs, but these two failed. They were re-installed with the same process and we're fine the rest of the way. The one RMR also started to go dead after the first day. The battery was believed to be original and 3+ years old. It was replaced.

Performance of the optics themselves was the usual boring fare. Nothing failed or lost zero. The guys with the green dots really dig them. I have one on a 19 and it works better for my eyes.

I remain very unhappy with the fit of Gen 5 Glocks with TLR-1 WMLs in Safariland holsters. Out of maybe six of those combinations, maybe one was serviceable. These are brand new 7360RDS holsters. I will be in touch with Safariland this week. I am of the understanding that they deny the issue.

This class gets out total deployment up to about 30-35 officers out of about 80. I suspect we will make it to the 50% mark before the year is out. This is significant because we did not allow personally owned guns until last year. The buy-in has been very good.

[HCM]

I'll play...

Taught a red dot handgun transition class for my department the last two days. This was our third class for the rank and file with the first two going late last summer. We are limited to an outdoor range and a combination of factors beyond the Iowa winter kept us from doing more than those two despite approving personally owned guns and optics last Spring.

Class attendance was twelve officers, all from our agency. Service length ran from pretty green to 27 years with us. This was our first class that I would describe as "mixed skill level." The first couple were mainly enthusiasts, but this one mixed in a few people who struggle at the range and have been convinced to give it a shot.

Guns:
Glock 17 with 509T (x2)
Glock 19 with 407C Green
Glock 19 with 507C Green
Glock 19 with 509T
Glock 19 with RM06
Glock 34 with 509T
Glock 43X MOS with 507K
Glock 45 with 509T (x3)
Somehow my notes are missing a gun...

All the guns were Gen 5 MOS with the exception of the 43X (obviously) and one of the 19s that was milled by Maple Leaf. I shot a 17 Gen 5 MOS with Steiner MPS. The gun and optic were brand new and I wanted to start with a clean slate to show zeroing. The MPS seems very nice. C&H was kind enough to overnight me a T&E (preproduction) plate for it so I could use it for this class.

Round count was about 700 rounds over the two days. The officer with the 43X was one of the ones that struggles and I will hand it to her putting up with that gun and firing schedule. She is a detective and was convinced by somebody else that the 43X would be easier to shoot. It obviously is not. Weather was trash at 40s, overcast, and relatively windy.

We had two optic plates loosen up (17 with 509T and 19 with 509T). Both were installed by me previously with C&H plates, Loctite 242, acetone prep, etc. I consider myself meticulous about the installs, but these two failed. They were re-installed with the same process and we're fine the rest of the way. The one RMR also started to go dead after the first day. The battery was believed to be original and 3+ years old. It was replaced.

Performance of the optics themselves was the usual boring fare. Nothing failed or lost zero. The guys with the green dots really dig them. I have one on a 19 and it works better for my eyes.

I remain very unhappy with the fit of Gen 5 Glocks with TLR-1 WMLs in Safariland holsters. Out of maybe six of those combinations, maybe one was serviceable. These are brand new 7360RDS holsters. I will be in touch with Safariland this week. I am of the understanding that they deny the issue.

This class gets out total deployment up to about 30-35 officers out of about 80. I suspect we will make it to the 50% mark before the year is out. This is significant because we did not allow personally owned guns until last year. The buy-in has been very good.

The fit of our issued TLR-1 HL in our issued 6000 series Safariland holsters with SIG P320s has also problematic. Problematic enough I’ve personally gone to all TLR-7A and X-300 for serious use.

[AMC]

The fit of our issued TLR-1 HL in our issued 6000 series Safariland holsters with SIG P320s has also problematic. Problematic enough I’ve personally gone to all TLR-7A and X-300 for serious use.

The 7360 series holsters we received for 320s with weaponlights were atrocious. Couldn't get the guns into the holsters, much less out. Somehow, Safariland heard of our disappointment, and I got a call from Tommy Campbell. He acknowledged the issue, and said they had made several "generational" changes to the 7TS series holsters for WMLs. They sent us new ones, which were substantially better....but not ideal. And still no DG Switch compatibility. I know a lot of folks like the US Duty Gear stuff, and it is quality, but it's still basically a 6000 series gun bucket. We would like a bit more retention.

I'm still a huge fan of the Blackhawk T Series L3D. Spent some time working some exercises that emphasized speed out of the holster today. I'm as fast with that holster as I am out of a competition rig on the timer. Once you get used to it, the draw is totally smooth.

[DpdG]

Any rumors around for the Blackhawk T series and Acro/509T/MPS fits?

[SoCalDep]

Any rumors around for the Blackhawk T series and Acro/509T/MPS fits?

My L3D for Glock/TLR-1 or 2 works with the ACRO and 509T if you take the shield off. It is my understanding they are working on a shield for the enclosed emitters.

[AMC]

My L3D for Glock/TLR-1 or 2 works with the ACRO and 509T if you take the shield off. It is my understanding they are working on a shield for the enclosed emitters.

Interestingly, the L3D for a Sig 320 w/TLR1 HL WILL fit the Romeo 2. Don't know if it would fit with a Glock holster with an adapter plate on the gun, though....

[AMC]

SoCalDep.....forgot to add. They are also working on a slightly 'taller' release paddle for the L3D series holsters....for racoon-pawed officers w/short thumbs. Should have one in hand next week. I'm still preferring this system over everything else right now, even factoring in pros and cons. Even over an ALS only with 'Nub' mod.....'cause it allows a remote switch for the light.

[SoCalDep]

Since my last post we've done a few classes.

Mid march we did a department pistol optic class with 18 students, including four from two local outside agencies. Pistols/ Optics were as follows:

Sig P320 / Romeo 1Pro
Glock 34 / RMR - manual
Sig P320 / Romeo 1Pro
M&P 2.0 4.25" / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro (Factory "6A" plate)
M&P 2.0 4.25" / RMR - manual
M&P 2.0 5" / Holosun 509T
M&P 2.0 5" / Holosun 507C
Staccato / RMR - manual
M&P 2.0 5" / Holosun 509T
M&P 5" / RMR - manual
M&P 4.25" / RMR - manual
M&P 5" / RMR - manual
M&P 5" / RMR - manual
M&P 4.25" / RMR - manual
M&P 4.25" / Holosun 508T
M&P 4.25" / Holosun 508T
M&P 4.25" / Aimpoint ACRO P1 (Borrowed)
Beretta LTT / Holosun 507C

On day #1 one of the 509Ts came loose on an M&P. It had been installed by an unauthorized individual with VC-3. It was reinstalled with our methods but came loose again on day #2. The optic - plate screw was loose, but the plate - slide screws were still tight. In addition, another 509T came loose, where the plate - slide screws were loose but the optic - plate screw remained tight. Both were re-installed (again - the second 509T had come loose the previous week when the person was practicing for the class) and completed the class.

The C&H plate continues to be an issue. I'm in contact with C&H trying to solve the problem. Some guns work fine, some fail after hundreds of rounds and some fail almost immediately. I inspected six pistols with 509Ts mounted earlier this week. All of them appeared to have the same lack of perfect fit between the plate and slide except one that fit flush. This is consistent with one other that I mounted a few weeks ago. I'm not sure if that's the issue but C&H is looking into it.


We held a 40hr firearm instructor school with nine students. In this class only one student was from an outside agency. Three of the students ran optics, which included:

Staccato P-DPO / RMR - manual
Glock 34 / Holosun 508T
Glock 19 / Holosun 508T

On the evening of the fourth day (low light session) the plate - slide screws sheared on the Glock 19 and the optic came off the gun. The optic - plate screws were still tight to the MOS plate. The plate had been mounted by someone else and I couldn't tell what thread-locker was used.


In a recent 1911/2011 certification class, we had thirteen students with seven optics. Two students ran single-stacks (a .45 Colt Gold Cup and a 9mm Springfield Range Officer Operator) and the rest ran Staccatos. all of the optics were (obviously) on the Staccatos. Optics were:

Holosun 509T
4 x RMR - manual
2 x DeltaPoint Pro

Round count was approximately 750 over two days and no optics had issues. The only pistol that had issues was a single Staccato that consistently failed to lock to the rear on an empty magazine with every magazine used. It will be going back to get fixed.


This past week we ran another pistol optic class. All the eleven students were from our department. I neglected to get an exact list, but there were two Glocks, a 34 with a 507C and a 45 with a 508T. The other nine pistols were M&Ps with a mix of RMR - manual models and Holosun 507Cs, 508Ts, and 509Ts. There were no optic issues but man our ammo sucks. We had multiple malfunctions with several pistols. The powder charge is super inconsistent.

[AMC]

SoCalDep.....on the ammo issue, is this training or duty ammo? We made a switch a few years ago, based entirely on quality control with a particular brand of duty ammo. We do use practice ammo for some training, but at this point only for recruit training. We used it for In Service Perishable Skills training briefly, but the cops kept trying to load it into their guns to go back on duty. It just got to be too much trouble keeping watch on them. You had to IMMEDIATELY remove the ammo.....but then some started grabbing a box extra before the end of training. It's like dealing with kindergarteners.

[HCM]

SoCalDep.....on the ammo issue, is this training or duty ammo? We made a switch a few years ago, based entirely on quality control with a particular brand of duty ammo. We do use practice ammo for some training, but at this point only for recruit training. We used it for In Service Perishable Skills training briefly, but the cops kept trying to load it into their guns to go back on duty. It just got to be too much trouble keeping watch on them. You had to IMMEDIATELY remove the ammo.....but then some started grabbing a box extra before the end of training. It's like dealing with kindergarteners.

Literally have our practice ammo dyed Barney purple to differentiate it from duty ammo and this is still an issue.

[AMC]

Literally have our practice ammo dyed Barney purple to differentiate it from duty ammo and this is still an issue.

I know for a fact I would have officers try to carry that because it matched their nails.

[HCM]

I know for a fact I would have officers try to carry that because it matched their nails.

Until our transition to the P320 two years ago, we issued .40 and allowed POWs in .38, 9mm and .40 with and issued .40 P229 and a POW G26 being the most common combo. We issued brass cased .40 and nickel cased 9mm to try and prevent ammo mix ups. Despite this we saw multiple instances of 9mm loaded into .40 mags and at least one instance of .40 loaded into. G26 mag.

The purple ammo is officially called Readily Identifiable Training ammo or RITA.

[SoCalDep]

SoCalDep.....on the ammo issue, is this training or duty ammo? We made a switch a few years ago, based entirely on quality control with a particular brand of duty ammo. We do use practice ammo for some training, but at this point only for recruit training. We used it for In Service Perishable Skills training briefly, but the cops kept trying to load it into their guns to go back on duty. It just got to be too much trouble keeping watch on them. You had to IMMEDIATELY remove the ammo.....but then some started grabbing a box extra before the end of training. It's like dealing with kindergarteners.

It's training ammo. Speer Lawman CleanFire 124gr. We've used several different brands and most of them have had one issue or another over time.

[AMC]

It's training ammo. Speer Lawman CleanFire 124gr. We've used several different brands and most of them have had one issue or another over time.

We've gone through Winchester White Box, Speer Lawman, AE, and Sig V Crown FMJ. Least problematic was the American Eagle. Sig was a close second, but we recently started seeing a lot of bad primers in the 180 gr .40 stuff.

[SoCalDep]

That's funny... American Eagle was the best for us as well. The performance of the low-lead isn't great, but I won't complain about the lower blood lead level.

[MVS]

I was out shooting my Sig Legion X-Carry today when something hit me in the nose. When I finished the string with holes all over the target I looked the gun over. I immediately felt the 508T flopping around. The left screw was loose and the right screw was sheared off it would turn out about flush with the slide. When I got it home and looked closer, it appeared as if the loose screw had no threadlocker intact, though I did install it. The broken screw though of course is still holding fast. It is going to take some work to remove. My guess is that the left screw came loose and then the right screw broke, but who knows.

[GJM]

I was out shooting my Sig Legion X-Carry today when something hit me in the nose. When I finished the string with holes all over the target I looked the gun over. I immediately felt the 508T flopping around. The left screw was loose and the right screw was sheared off it would turn out about flush with the slide. When I got it home and looked closer, it appeared as if the loose screw had no threadlocker intact, though I did install it. The broken screw though of course is still holding fast. It is going to take some work to remove. My guess is that the left screw came loose and then the right screw broke, but who knows.

It seems like loose screws lead to broken screws. Didn’t SoCal report issues with the 508T and screws not staying tight?

[SoCalDep]

It seems like loose screws lead to broken screws. Didn’t SoCal report issues with the 508T and screws not staying tight?

We had issues with the McMaster alloy steel screws that had the wider (I think .307") head diameter because they contacted the side of the optic. We switched to the smaller head diameter screws (McMaster stainless or zinc-plated depending on application - I think they are .260") and haven't had issues since.

I went back and looked at pictures of the sheared screw from our SRO testing where we fired a pretty obscene number of rounds in a very short time frame and it was the right screw that sheared on that one, but a picture I have of a Glock MOS showed a left plate-slide screw sheared.

From what I've seen, one screw comes loose first. It's "more" loose as the second screw comes loose enough to allow the optic to start shifting during firing. as the optic shifts it impacts the looser screw eventually shearing it. I'm no engineer however, so I can't say for certain what happens or how.

[MVS]

We had issues with the McMaster alloy steel screws that had the wider (I think .307") head diameter because they contacted the side of the optic. We switched to the smaller head diameter screws (McMaster stainless or zinc-plated depending on application - I think they are .260") and haven't had issues since.

I went back and looked at pictures of the sheared screw from our SRO testing where we fired a pretty obscene number of rounds in a very short time frame and it was the right screw that sheared on that one, but a picture I have of a Glock MOS showed a left plate-slide screw sheared.

From what I've seen, one screw comes loose first. It's "more" loose as the second screw comes loose enough to allow the optic to start shifting during firing. as the optic shifts it impacts the looser screw eventually shearing it. I'm no engineer however, so I can't say for certain what happens or how.

Not sure if both came loose, but I tried heating up the one that sheared off to get it out and no dice. I am going to have to take it to work tomorrow and mill it out.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Last week I taught a 2-night L/E Low Light Instructor class in San Bernadino. The handgun round count was only 225 rounds, sharing here none the less.

18 students with the following pistols:

Glock 22 / X300U;
Sig P320/Romeo 1 Pro/ Streamlight TLR1;
Glock 22/RMR/X300U;
Glock 17/SRO/TLR7;
Glock 19/RMR/X300U;
Glock 19/Holosun/TLR7;
Glock 17C/Holosun/TLR7;
Staccato/Holosun/Modlite;
Glock 17/SRO/X300U;
Staccato/Holosun 507CS/Modlite;
Glock 22/X300U;
Glock 45/RMR/X300U;
Glock 17/RMR/TLR1;
Glock 17/RMR/TLR1;
Glock 17/Holosun/TLR1;
Glock 45/Holosun/X300U;
Staccato/Holosun/X300;
Zev OZ9/RMR/X300U;
and I used my M&P 2.0/Acro P2/X300U

No optics issues noted.

[GJM]

Not sure if both came loose, but I tried heating up the one that sheared off to get it out and no dice. I am going to have to take it to work tomorrow and mill it out.

Can you cut a slot in what is left, and use a flat head to get it out?

[Tokarev]

Staccato/Holosun/Modlite;
Staccato/Holosun 507CS/Modlite;
Staccato/Holosun/X300;




Department issue?

[MVS]

Can you cut a slot in what is left, and use a flat head to get it out?

Well I have done that in the past but usually on bigger screws or when they are sticking up above the surface. This broke off flush with the slide. It is a .119 tap drill so I would have to try to use a .031 cutter to put the flat in and set up and program the cnc to do it and probably still break cutters because you would have to plunge. It will be much easier to throw it in the Bridgeport, eyeball the center and peck a .093 carbide cutter down in and then hopefully use a trick or two to remove what is left

[cpd2110]

We had our first full PMO class this week at my agency. This was a three day class with about 2.5 worth of shooting. All guns were either Glock 17/19 Gen 5 MOS with Holosun 509 X2's on C&H plates. We had one previous class with all new firearms instructors who did fine but this was our first with officers who were a mix of shooters and non-shooters.

Of the 15 officers, 13 passed and will be allowed to carry the optic. One passed but decided he did not feel comfortable with the dot and was not convinced it improved his shooting. He was re-outfitted with his normal sights, re-zero'ed and qualified and was done about mid-day on day 3. One shooter left mid-day on day one for essentially fundamental shooting issues that the instructors felt would be a drag on the class. She agreed with that assessment and re-qualified with the normal set-up and went on about her day.

An important note is that we used SoCalDep's protocol for mounting and had zero sights/plates come loose. This is the first group that were all on this protocol and finally we have success. We had previously used what C&HPWS had suggested and those failed often. We did have two rear suppressor height sights work loose, they were re-installed, some blue loctite applied and we will keep an eye on them as each student must qualify monthly for a year after the class. We are doing that to ensure optics/plates stay put and to help with the transition.

I only stopped in each day for a couple hours but everyone seemed happy with the instruction and their new gear. At our agency the officer must purchase all of the items, we provide the gun and holster only. We felt this allows buy in from the officers and hopefully they take care of their gear since they paid. SWAT will run a class in May and then another general line class in August. I think we will keep the 3 day format but likely will allow officers who transition easily the option of whether they want to attend day 3 or not. This will only be with instructor approval based on if the minimums are covered and they have a good grasp. My instructors did that with some very accomplished shooters this week and it allowed for more individual time with officers who did not get it as quickly. Seemed to work out but we will see. They will still be required to shoot monthly however.

[SoCalDep]

In this installment, we’ll discuss a few classes, some feedback from guys on patrol, mounting issues, and some optic evaluations that will be coming up soon.

Since my last post in mid-April, we did two pistol-optic classes and a firearm instructor school where most of the students ran optics.

The breakdown of the first pistol optic class with 14 students (two students from a bay-area police department and twelve from my department) is as follows:

3 x Glocks with Holosun 507Cs
2 x Staccatos with Trijicon RMRs (manual adjust)
1 x Staccato with Trijicon SRO
2 x S&W M&Ps with Trijicon SROs
2 x S&W M&Ps with Holosun 507Cs
1 x S&W M&P with Holosun 508T
1 x S&W M&P with Holosun 509T
1 x S&W M&P with Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
1 x S&W M&P with Aimpoint ACRO P-2 (Aimpoint Plate)

The RMR on the Staccato came loose on day 1. The owner was a former student from a private firearm instructor school we taught back in February and his optic had come loose in that class. I had re-installed it using the same plate – slide screws since I don’t have any spares. The plate – slide screws came loose again in this class, which is something we see somewhat frequently with Staccatos. My partner was told directly from Staccato to use a VERY TINY bit of red Loctite for those screws and this practice has worked well. I’ve been hesitant to adopt the red Loctite idea, but this was the “I’ve seen enough” for me to go there. After the re-install there were no further problems with the pistol/optic during the class.

During the class I have the students check the optic to ensure it’s not loose. We do this a few times during the class and on the last check at the end of the last day the 509T on the M&P was loose. Upon removing the optic, a chunk fell off of the C&H plate where it had broken. This is a major problem with the old-version C&H plates and they have since re-designed them. I’m hoping the new design works better.


The 40-hr firearm instructor school was next with 14 students from multiple state and local agencies. Pistols/Sights were as follows:

3 x S&W M&Ps / Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
1x S&W M&P / Holosun 509T
2 x Glock / Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
1 x Glock 34 / Leupold DeltaPoint Pro
1 x Glock 17 / Trijicon SRO
1 x Glock 17 / Holosun 507C
1 x Glock 17 / Iron Sights* (Used a G17 with an RMR for the last two days – had never run an optic)
1 x Sig P320 / Holosun 507C
1 x Sig P320 / Romeo 1PRO
1 x Beretta 92LTT / Iron Sights
1 x Staccato P-DPO / Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)

The only pistol to have issues was the Sig P320 with the Holosun 507C mounted via a C&H plate. The optic came loose early in the class but I had no replacement screws so we had to re-install with the same screws that had been cut to a specific length so as not to press on the extractor assembly. The C&H screws that were originally supplied with the plate were too long. This is the second Sig P320 I’ve seen where C&H-supplied screws were too long and impeded function.

On the last day it came loose again, and one screw sheared even with the optic pocket. I was able to measure the other screw (the right one – same side as the extractor) with a caliper, which was 0.328”.

After getting in contact with the guys from the Sig Sauer Academy, I learned the slide is tapped for 6-40 screws, and based on the measurement, 5/16” length screws should work great for the Holosun – but McMaster only has 6-40 screws with .307” head diameter, and that’s too wide to reliably work with the Holosun optic body, and the closest length is 3/8”. I couldn’t find anything that would work at other web sites either except buying two-packs from C&H and measuring/cutting.

Since the RMR screws are generally 1/16” longer than Holosun, the McMaster 6-40 x 3/8” screws should work for the RMR/SRO in that application, and I’ll be picking some up to have on hand.


The other department pistol optic class also had 14 students, with our department as well as four outside local agencies represented. Several of those guys were from a well-known investigative unit and their professionalism and skill certainly matched their reputation. It was a fun class!

Pistols/Optics were as follows:

4 x Glocks (17s and 45s) / Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
2 x Glocks (17 and 45) / Trijicon RMR (automatic adjust)
1 x Glock 17 / Holosun 508T
1 x Glock 45 / Holosun 507C
1 x Glock 45 / Aimpoint ACRO P-2
1 x Staccato C2-DPO / Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
2 x S&W M&Ps / Trijicon RMR (manual adjust)
1 x S&W M&P / Trijicon SRO
1 x S&W M&P / Holosun 507C

The only issue that occurred during this class was a Glock 45 that had its Forward Controls RMR plate come loose mid-way through day 2. When I pulled it off there was either no evidence of thread-locker. We reinstalled and there were no further issues.

I had one deputy in one of our in-service training classes come in with a loose optic (Trijicon SRO) on a Glock. When I pulled it off there was a lot of VC-3 on and around the plate and down into the threads in the slide. I ended up disassembling the slide because there was so much VC-3 it had run down into the extractor assembly. I cleaned it all up and re-installed. The deputy was going to wait the 24hr cure time for the Loctite and I haven’t heard back from him, so I assume things are going well or he hasn’t shot it yet (It’s not his primary duty gun). He had taken our optic class way back in early 2020 before we adopted the mounting procedures we use now and back when deputies mounted their own optics.

Another deputy contacted me yesterday to let me know that he's been averaging 7-9 weeks on a Duracell battery with his Holosun 509T X2 running it at full brightness on "dot only". He works a 1200-2200 shift so most of it is daylight and he dims the dot towards dusk/night. That seems like a pretty short battery life but a monthly change-out isn't the worst thing in the world.

Lastly (for now), in addition to the Bushnell RXS-250, we got the Steiner MPS in for testing. I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet but I mounted it and threw it in a freezer at -8 degrees Fahrenheit, waited an hour, and pulled it out into a 76 degree ambient room. The 84 degree temperature shift resulted in condensational frost mostly blocking the view through the window within around 30 seconds and completely blocking it within one minute. That said, as was the case when I tested the enclosed emitter ACRO and 509T, the dot never disappeared from view and was clear and distinct, meaning occluded-eye aiming would be possible even in extreme condensation situations.

[JCN]

The plate – slide screws came loose again in this class, which is something we see somewhat frequently with Staccatos.

Use E6000 on the plate to slide interface and you won’t need to do more with the screws.

It’s removable and works very well.

[HCM]

Use E6000 on the plate to slide interface and you won’t need to do more with the screws.

It’s removable and works very well.

What is E6000 ?

[SoCalDep]

Use E6000 on the plate to slide interface and you won’t need to do more with the screws.

It’s removable and works very well.

I've heard the talk of E6000 and other products like JB Weld, and while they may be an improved mounting solution, I'm not convinced.

I'm concerned regarding the E6000 for the same reason I don't like plastic plates and VC-3. I want metal to metal contact with no movement. That's (and a good thread-locker) what keeps the screws tight. If the E6000, which is advertised as a flexible bond, allows vibration between the optic and mounting components, the screws may be more likely to come loose.

Since the compressive force placed on the epoxy is minimal (we're using inch-pounds unlike say a head gasket at high foot-pounds of torque) I'm not sure it's enough to prevent part separation and vibration between the components.

Of course, it may work great, but I'd need a large sample size with guns that aren't being used in the field before I'd trust it for duty use. Looking back on it now, our unit put almost 200,000 rounds through 36 optics during our evaluation and still didn't develop better mounting techniques until we saw failures over widespread use (like hundreds of pistol/optics).

In spite of my fairly extensive experience with VC-3 being horrible in the application of a thread-locker for pistol optics, it's still included and recommended by optic accessory manufacturers and even works sometimes (It worked during our Holosun 10,000 round test).

Red Loctite is a known product. It works great in preventing optics from coming loose. In fact, it works so well that our experience has been that if one isn't careful it can be an almost permanent bond. That's why I'm hesitant to use it unless really necessary... It works "too" good. In the case of the Staccato plate-slide screws, they are fairly beefy and the optic would be removed if heat needed to be applied for removal so I think it's the best solution for duty optics unless we can get a bigger sample size of things like E6000 or JB Weld.

After beginning to write this response I thought about taking one of our T&E optics off (we haven't started the live-fire test) and using the E6000 but each one has its own other factors that may contribute to coming loose. One optic is mounted with a plastic plate and screws from the bag supplied with M&Ps... that may or may not work with that particular optic's countersink, and the other is mounted with the Steiner MPS adaptor plate to the Glock #1 MOS plate so it would be hard to determine the cause if it comes loose. Those evaluations are going to be their own form of experimentation.

Maybe I'll grab one of our other T&E optic-host pistols and throw a spare DeltaPoint Pro on it with some E6000 to see if I can test the concept.

[JCN]

What is E6000 ?


I've heard the talk of E6000 and other products like JB Weld, and while they may be an improved mounting solution, I'm not convinced.

I'm concerned regarding the E6000 for the same reason I don't like plastic plates and VC-3. I want metal to metal contact with no movement. That's (and a good thread-locker) what keeps the screws tight. If the E6000, which is advertised as a flexible bond, allows vibration between the optic and mounting components, the screws may be more likely to come loose.

The E6000 was my plate to slide solution for a CZ shadow 2 OR that despite following recommendations for factory mounting would work loose like the Staccato.

It has worked great for 25,000+ rounds on that gun and on every other application I’ve used it for has worked as I wanted it.

It’s removable which is great but won’t come off unless you want it to.

The issue with slide to plate is that the fitment is often a little sloppy. So the screws feel the effects of sliding surfaces across each other. That’s where the E6000 works to prevent Micro sliding.

Even if you get “metal to metal” contact and properly torqued screws… my high round count optics always continue to see rub marks on the surfaces suggesting that shear forces continue to be an issue.

That’s the solution of E6000. It prevents that rubbing that often works screws loose. It’s not the compression, it’s the shear that’s the issue. Metal on metal still rubs.

[SoCalDep]

I get it, but yours is a sample of one. I’m not discounting your experience and I’d like to try it, if only in specific applications. If it’s an improvement then that’s a good thing.

I simply won’t advocate for it without a bigger sample size and more testing. I switch guns a lot so my main training Glock 34 probably has the most through it at around 10k-15k rounds but we’ve got several guys running optics using our methods that are at 40,000 to 80,000 rounds. Some probably more. That doesn’t mean ours is the best way… it just means it’s a pretty reliable way.

I would also question the rub marks you describe. Was there rubbing and then loose screws, or did the screws come loose which allowed rubbing? Did mounting inconsistencies such as failure to degrease surfaces decrease friction and allow movement? What were the factory instructions and how might that have played into the optic coming loose?

Movement is the enemy and if the E6000 minimizes it reliably then I’m all for it.