Stuff I learned from Ben Stoeger

[GJM]

To summarize, this is what I was doing wrong. On my presentation I tried to acquire the dot quickly, drive the dot to the target, grip the bejesus out of the pistol to minimize dot movement in recoil, help that further with post ignition push, then drive the dot to the next target and repeat the process, using strength to attempt to minimize dot movement.

This is how I changed. While I clamp hard with my support hand, I way backed off with strong hand grip. I look exactly at my aiming point on the target. I bring the dot to that spot on the target and fire the shot. I let recoil happen, then I use my peripheral vision to guide the dot back to my spot on the target. I shoot the streak of the dot returning into the scoring area. Then I snap my eyes to the next target spot, and when the dot reaches the spot, I fire the shot. Let recoil happen, and let peripheral vision bring the dot back to the aiming point. Repeat.

Instead of trying to minimize dot movement, I am embracing the streak. My grip is focused on making the dot return predictably and not minimizing dot movement. My split speed is faster because my trigger finger is less tense and I am shooting earlier. My accuracy is better because I am laser focused on my aiming point, and I can call my shots easier because I am focused on the target not the moving dot. Shooting on the move is also far easier with a complete target focus. After a practice session, I am so much less tired mentally and physically. It is fun.

[JHC]

Cool stuff. So now you're essentially using the dot more like irons in the sense of the gun and sights following your vision to targets vs tracking together. Did I follow that correctly?


How did Ben catch that without looking through your eyes??? Amazing.

[David S.]

How does what you learned from Stoeger compare/contrast with TPC?

[YVK]

How does what you learned from Stoeger compare/contrast with TPC?

Their recoil management concepts are very similar, best summarized by TPC's "let recoil happen". Staying heavily target focused, both irons and dot, is uniquely Ben's teaching. TPC doesn't teach this, neither in basic nor advanced handgun mastery classes.

[rca90gsx]

Ben captures a lot of details when watching people, really great at it. Doing video training with him or video'ing yourself and playing in slow motion is really valuable for training. Over gripping with the strong hand shows up pretty clearly on video in a few different forms. It is something I recommend for everyone, really sheds light on a lot of things that are truly happening for you to then use to work specific drills to get better. His experience coaching really helps a lot of people.

[GJM]

How does what you learned from Stoeger compare/contrast with TPC?

It is completely different. TPC has a structured program, covering all aspects of your shooting. They spend their time taking you through their system.

Ben is not teaching you a system. He is looking at just you and figuring out what is holding you back.

[MGW]

I’m curious how did you figure out how to stop the post ignition push? I’m not sure I would be able to do that on demand.

[GJM]

I’m curious how did you figure out how to stop the post ignition push? I’m not sure I would be able to do that on demand.

Listened to Ben — his argument for using vision is persuasive, and actually using vision is very intuitive, and thus easy to adopt.

[Eyesquared]

Listened to Ben — his argument for using vision is persuasive, and actually using vision is very intuitive, and thus easy to adopt.
In all fairness I think the rest of your training over the years can't hurt. I have been trying to do this (relax the strong hand, direct the gun in recoil and in transitions using my vision) since I've been seeing it on PSTG, and in video reviews Ben has specifically pointed it out as an issue I have. However my transitions are not quite at the level of precision where the dot consistently goes straight to where my vision is focused. Even with my vision properly directed I can still take an inefficient gun path or over swing. Lots of dry fire to do in my case.

[Eyesquared]

I’m curious how did you figure out how to stop the post ignition push? I’m not sure I would be able to do that on demand.
For me the key has been telling myself to shoot only the pace of the sights, and somehow it works out. I noticed this after reviewing my match footage and seeing that I had less post ignition push in matches than I did in practice, and one of the main differences was that I was pushing to shoot a predetermined pace in practice, while I was shooting according to my sights in matches. I think individual psychology will give different people different results and you might have to experiment with different mental cues until you find a way of thinking that consistently works for you.

[GJM]

My wife made an interesting observation about Ben’s “method,” which is very much like doing a painting by the numbers. Look here, move the dot there, look to the next spot, move the dot, move your eyes to the next movement spot and then move your body there. A stage becomes a series of looks followed by do’s, and in that way it is very manageable. How do you eat an elephant — one bite at a time. You are never worrying about whole arrays or whole stages, just your next look.

[MGW]

My wife made an interesting observation about Ben’s “method,” which is very much like doing a painting by the numbers. Look here, move the dot there, look to the next spot, move the dot, move your eyes to the next movement spot and then move your body there. A stage becomes a series of looks followed by do’s, and in that way it is very manageable. How do you eat an elephant — one bite at a time. You are never worrying about whole arrays or whole stages, just your next look.

I believe being able to target focus 100% of the time would be a huge advantage. Not the kind shooting we are talking about but I was really struggling with group shooting a couple of years ago. I had a terrible flinch and was over aiming. I switched to target focus for all slow fire groups out of pure desperation. My groups immediately tightened up and the flinch went away.

I gotta take the dive into dots and see what I learn.

[rob_s]

Something both Frank Garcia and Shannon Smith suggested to me years ago was to use just your pointer finger to get yourself used to leading with your eyes. Look at one point on a wall or in the distance, point at it, then find another point with your eyes and bring your pointer finger to that point. Helped me a lot. I even do it in the car on the way to a match just to brush up. Also do it with two hands (strong hand against cheek, weak hand pointing) to simulate carbine movement. Might be hocus pocus but two very strong shooters suggested it and it’s seemed to help me.

[YVK]

I’m curious how did you figure out how to stop the post ignition push?

You kind of don't, in a sense of one definitive way. Ben says that an instinct to over-tense and push on the gun stays with us all our shooting life regardless of skill level, and we have to fight that and work on that all the time. I imagine that everyone will develop their own proprioceptive or mental cues. In one of my classes with him he said "you have to let the gun hit you", meaning letting the gun recoil and transfer its energy into the shooter without shooter pushing back. I latched on that phrase and when I work specifically on that, like doubles or Bill, I keep telling this to myself while I shoot. The hope then is that doing that enough times helps to ingrain the habit. While this can be seen and somewhat addressed in dry fire, I do think that you need live fire to sort this out effectively.

[MGW]

You kind of don't, in a sense of one definitive way. Ben says that an instinct to over-tense and push on the gun stays with us all our shooting life regardless of skill level, and we have to fight that and work on that all the time. I imagine that everyone will develop their own proprioceptive or mental cues. In one of my classes with him he said "you have to let the gun hit you", meaning letting the gun recoil and transfer its energy into the shooter without shooter pushing back. I latched on that phrase and when I work specifically on that, like doubles or Bill, I keep telling this to myself while I shoot. The hope then is that doing that enough times helps to ingrain the habit. While this can be seen and somewhat addressed in dry fire, I do think that you need live fire to sort this out effectively.

I'm of the opinion that it can't be completely eliminated but I like this line of thinking. The doubles drill that Ben talks about makes a little more sense now too.

[98z28]

Excellent stuff. This echos what I remember reading in Brian Enos's book. He mentions not caring how much recoil/movement there is as long as the sights lift and return consistently and quickly. Being relaxed is more important. I recall a story about him choosing a gun with more recoil for a steel challenge match because the recoil impulse was more predictable and he could be more relaxed. It's been years since I read his book, so I'm probably butchering that story.

I suspect that being more relaxed also helps extend (productive) training sessions and maintain consistent performance over a long match as there is only so long you can muscle the gun with both hands before fatigue starts to impact performance.

[CCT125US]

Golden nuggets, thanks GJM.

I've also heard it described as floating the gun.

[rob_s]

GJM was this in a structured class with others or private instruction?

if Ben makes his way back to my area I've considered trying to schedule some 1:1 time

[rca90gsx]

One thing you can try is the measurement drill by Hwansik Kim (youtube should have it). It will show you exactly that you are shoving it down, if you are. Another thing to focus on for me was isolating just trigger finger moving and let the recoil happen, i believe they say to just ride the lightning lol. Having the correct firing hand tension is a big thing, because what I would do is tense that hand up to fight the recoil while pressing the trigger. Hope some of this helps.




I'm of the opinion that it can't be completely eliminated but I like this line of thinking. The doubles drill that Ben talks about makes a little more sense now too.

[MGW]

Excellent stuff. This echos what I remember reading in Brian Enos's book. He mentions not caring how much recoil/movement there is as long as the sights lift and return consistently and quickly. Being relaxed is more important. I recall a story about him choosing a gun with more recoil for a steel challenge match because the recoil impulse was more predictable and he could be more relaxed. It's been years since I read his book, so I'm probably butchering that story.

I suspect that being more relaxed also helps extend (productive) training sessions and maintain consistent performance over a long match as there is only so long you can muscle the gun with both hands before fatigue starts to impact performance.

Good stuff here too. Ties right in with some of the recent discussions and experiences comparing shorter pistols like the 43x and G45 to their longer slide counterparts.

[SteveB]

This sort of reminds me of early kendo training where one spends a lot of time learning to stand, learning to breathe, learning not to overgrip the sword. Squeezing increases muscle tension which decreases flow.

[Clusterfrack]

Ben and Hwansik are putting out the best training material I’ve ever seen. Ben’s class was outstanding. Of course, this is a personal thing, but his analytical approach is a good fit for me. It takes a lot of work to implement though.

About grip: It’s interesting that Ben tells some people to grip harder, others to grip more gently, depending on what they need.

[Zincwarrior]

My wife made an interesting observation about Ben’s “method,” which is very much like doing a painting by the numbers. Look here, move the dot there, look to the next spot, move the dot, move your eyes to the next movement spot and then move your body there. A stage becomes a series of looks followed by do’s, and in that way it is very manageable. How do you eat an elephant — one bite at a time. You are never worrying about whole arrays or whole stages, just your next look.

You wife just clarified my understanding of that portion of the class tremendously. Thanks!

[Zincwarrior]

GJM was this in a structured class with others or private instruction?

if Ben makes his way back to my area I've considered trying to schedule some 1:1 time

I would highly recommend this when we have the Post Covid happy time. The class I was in had a full range from MA level shooters to those like myself who were oxygen deprived as children. Although we do the same drills he really works with each individual person.

[cheby]

About grip: It’s interesting that Ben tells some people to grip harder, others to grip more gently, depending on what they need.

I think he is changing his approach to relaxing the grip with the strong hand in general. I believe that the groundbreaking development by Hwansik made some difference as well

[cheby]

I’m curious how did you figure out how to stop the post ignition push? I’m not sure I would be able to do that on demand.

You shoot doubles. A lot. Ben still does it.

[GJM]

GJM was this in a structured class with others or private instruction?

if Ben makes his way back to my area I've considered trying to schedule some 1:1 time

Scheduled as an eight person class, although due to an illness we only had seven. Lots of personal attention from Ben.

[David S.]

https://youtu.be/zn8_di_IK2M

[JHC]

I think he is changing his approach to relaxing the grip with the strong hand in general. I believe that the groundbreaking development by Hwansik made some difference as well

What was that young shooter's groundbreaking development? I just looked him up to follow on FB and IG now.

[rca90gsx]

I can't speak for him, but He and Hwansik spent a LOT of time on the doubles drill and testing different grip pressures, gripping styles, etc (mainly Hwansik testing different approaches) and watching the movement and the results. Always looking for it to return out of recoil back to zero and effortlessly. They look at the movement in recoil, movement as it returns, does it stop, does it dip, does it move up and down etc. In video you can see your hand or hands tensing up and the muzzle dip etc... they have really just spent a lot of time reviewing people, techniques and generally are just passionate about squeezing out every inch of performance in other people. I hope this helps some.


What was that young shooter's groundbreaking development? I just looked him up to follow on FB and IG now.

[JHC]

I can't speak for him, but He and Hwansik spent a LOT of time on the doubles drill and testing different grip pressures, gripping styles, etc (mainly Hwansik testing different approaches) and watching the movement and the results. Always looking for it to return out of recoil back to zero and effortlessly. They look at the movement in recoil, movement as it returns, does it stop, does it dip, does it move up and down etc. In video you can see your hand or hands tensing up and the muzzle dip etc... they have really just spent a lot of time reviewing people, techniques and generally are just passionate about squeezing out every inch of performance in other people. I hope this helps some.

Thanks! It's interesting. A few years ago I attempted to chase the super grip thing what with the high end grip trainers and such and got nowhere but nearly hurt. I don't have a super strong grip and haven't really tried to winch it down beyond a firm handshake. Maybe I'll experiment with less firm too.

[rca90gsx]

Key for me was Ben said think of your weak side hand now as your gripping hand, think of strong hand as trigger control hand. For me it worked when I was regularly practicing.



Thanks! It's interesting. A few years ago I attempted to chase the super grip thing what with the high end grip trainers and such and got nowhere but nearly hurt. I don't have a super strong grip and haven't really tried to winch it down beyond a firm handshake. Maybe I'll experiment with less firm too.

[scw2]

One thing you can try is the measurement drill by Hwansik Kim (youtube should have it). It will show you exactly that you are shoving it down, if you are. Another thing to focus on for me was isolating just trigger finger moving and let the recoil happen, i believe they say to just ride the lightning lol. Having the correct firing hand tension is a big thing, because what I would do is tense that hand up to fight the recoil while pressing the trigger. Hope some of this helps.

If you don't mind, could you summarize the measurement drill? I tried googling and searching on YT but failed to find anything.




Key for me was Ben said think of your weak side hand now as your gripping hand, think of strong hand as trigger control hand. For me it worked when I was regularly practicing.

To clarify my understanding, are you saying to try to get most of the grip from your support hand, while keeping your shooting hand relaxed throughout the entire firing process? And besides looking at how the gun recoils, also use film to diagnose differing tension throughout the firing and recoil cycle to help diagnose where extra tension in strong hand may be creeping in?

Thanks so much for sharing your insight so far, tons to test in dry/live fire since I've been adding tension in my strong hand as a bandaid to clenching during recoil, but this sounds like a better way or at least worth testing out.

[rca90gsx]

Basically you are learning how much it takes to return the gun. So setup at 5 yards or so, pick a precise aiming spot, fire the round, now the hkey is, you let it recoil, and let the gun stop recoiling up, then fire the 2nd round there, you shiuld now have two shots (ideally) vertical of each other, you aim at the top (2nd round) and then return the gun down to the first hole, rinse and repeat. I learned to not fight it and let recoil happen that way, and seeing how consistent it travels in recoil over a string of 10 or 20 attempts. I started close to the berm, even though the recoil does not put the 2nd very high. On your other question, i think the majority of the grip is done with the weak hand, yes. For me that was the best results. However, i truly think just experimenting alone will teach YOU what works best for you. When it is right, you just see your specific spot on the target, no effort dot/sight is there and there is no doubt as it lifts and returns effortlessly to the same spot. Then you know you are on to something. I am in no way an expert or trainer, just watch a lot of videos, and read everything I can. He talks about this on his podcast quite a bit also. He is worth the investment to get his eyes on you. Watch his YT videos on doubles drill and it will explain better than I can as well.


If you don't mind, could you summarize the measurement drill? I tried googling and searching on YT but failed to find anything.





To clarify my understanding, are you saying to try to get most of the grip from your support hand, while keeping your shooting hand relaxed throughout the entire firing process? And besides looking at how the gun recoils, also use film to diagnose differing tension throughout the firing and recoil cycle to help diagnose where extra tension in strong hand may be creeping in?

Thanks so much for sharing your insight so far, tons to test in dry/live fire since I've been adding tension in my strong hand as a bandaid to clenching during recoil, but this sounds like a better way or at least worth testing out.

[Eyesquared]

For anyone interested in these concepts I highly recommend paying for the bronze membership at Practical Shooting Training Group. It's definitely worth it as there is a ton of content on there that you won't find anywhere else.

[Clusterfrack]

Re measurement drill: If the grip is jacked in some way, it can cause a bigger delta between first and second hole. Wrist, arm, and body make a bigger difference once grip is dialed in. Gripping harder doesn’t help after a certain point.

[cheby]

What was that young shooter's groundbreaking development? I just looked him up to follow on FB and IG now.

A couple years ago, Hwansik made several lectures about recoil management. Those videos are behind the pay wall though. He also developed various drills to work on the recoil control such as measurement drill, and doubles.
I switched to limited 2 years ago and discovered that I could not shoot my limited guns with the same speed as my production ones. I spent over year and a lot of ammo trying to figure it out. Then I took a class from Hwansik just to address that and spent last winter working on the recoil control only. I can tell that finally I feel like I am getting there. I recently played with my production gun and was shocked how fast and flat I can shoot it now. Also my elbow problems are almost done. As a matter of fact my elbows are better than they ever were since I started seriously practicing 5 years ago. It is a very big deal for me because last summer I couldn't sleep because of the pain. Hwansik told me that his tendinitis was gone as well.
I like to look at the recoil control as reactivate vs proactive shooting as Ben described it. Reactivate is when you react on your sight. This is old school and what the timmies teach. The problem with that approach is it is too slow. Proactive shooting is when you are able to control (ride) the recoil efficiently. You still see the sights but have no time to react...
It is not easy to develop those skills. Moreover, you have to maintain them constantly. But this is the difference between just good shooters and the really good ones.

[cheby]

Re measurement drill: If the grip is jacked in some way, it can cause a bigger delta between first and second hole. Wrist, arm, and body make a bigger difference once grip is dialed in. Gripping harder doesn’t help after a certain point.

it actually doesn't matter how big the delta is. Depending on the gun, recoil spring, caliber it could vary. First you find out what it is and then you train to learn how much you need to return your gun. You do it faster and faster. At some point it becomes the doubles.

[Clusterfrack]

cheby, I agree, except the “flip” delta does matter because that can be an indicator of problems with grip, wrist, arm, or body mechanics.

[rca90gsx]

For anyone interested in these concepts I highly recommend paying for the bronze membership at Practical Shooting Training Group. It's definitely worth it as there is a ton of content on there that you won't find anywhere else.
This is very true! Clusterfrack and cheby have really good information above as well!

[mrozowjj]

Kind of reminds of of motorcycle safety class; don't look at the front of the bike or 10ft in front of the bike; point your head and look where you want the bike to go and it will go there.

[JHC]

A couple years ago, Hwansik made several lectures about recoil management. Those videos are behind the pay wall though. He also developed various drills to work on the recoil control such as measurement drill, and doubles.
I switched to limited 2 years ago and discovered that I could not shoot my limited guns with the same speed as my production ones. I spent over year and a lot of ammo trying to figure it out. Then I took a class from Hwansik just to address that and spent last winter working on the recoil control only. I can tell that finally I feel like I am getting there. I recently played with my production gun and was shocked how fast and flat I can shoot it now. Also my elbow problems are almost done. As a matter of fact my elbows are better than they ever were since I started seriously practicing 5 years ago. It is a very big deal for me because last summer I couldn't sleep because of the pain. Hwansik told me that his tendinitis was gone as well.
I like to look at the recoil control as reactivate vs proactive shooting as Ben described it. Reactivate is when you react on your sight. This is old school and what the timmies teach. The problem with that approach is it is too slow. Proactive shooting is when you are able to control (ride) the recoil efficiently. You still see the sights but have no time to react...
It is not easy to develop those skills. Moreover, you have to maintain them constantly. But this is the difference between just good shooters and the really good ones.

Thanks!
Did you figure out why you used to not be able to shoot your limited guns as fast as production? Sounds counterintuitive so an answer has got to be interesting!

[cheby]

Thanks!
Did you figure out why you used to not be able to shoot your limited guns as fast as production? Sounds counterintuitive so an answer has got to be interesting!

Because the limited guns are 40SW with substantially more recoil than 9mm. With shadow 2 you can get away with a bad grip, unlike with limited gun shooting 40. Ben addressed that on his recent podcast BTW. Shooting 40sw is more difficult and it teaches you a lot about fundamentals.
Each time someone is bitching about major scoring, it's because they don't understand what they are talking about. I was one of them.

[Eyesquared]

This is very true! Clusterfrack and cheby have really good information above as well!

Yup. Apart from the topics we're talking about here there are talk throughs of major matches, interviews with a lot of top shooters (including shooters who are better known in the IPSC world who are thusly not interviewed by American firearms podcasts), drill videos, class videos like the one posted earlier, and you can see the reviews Ben and Hwansik do for the silver members. Plus you get to see Ben and Hwansik's material as they explore new or different concepts in real time VS periodically being exposed to it through a book or class. I've done almost all of the "online subscription for firearms videos" things out there and PSTG has had the most dramatic impact on my shooting by far. Usually I cancel after binge watching for a week or two but there's always enough new stuff on PSTG to make it worthwhile to me.

[Street Survival]

David S. Thank you for posting Ben Stoeger's training video I learned a lot. Ben is going onto my shortlist of trainers I want to do some training with. Thanks Again.