Proposed class: "Self Defense & the Law - Practical Applications"

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Talk to me about what you'd like to experience in a class called "Self Defense & the Law - Practical Applications".

At least 3 hours of class following my usual outline:

How self defense is viewed by the legal system;
Defining "reasonable";
Reasonable as part of Self Defense;
What is reasonable when it comes to using force?;
The two standards for the use of force:
#1 Ability/Opportunity/Intent
#2 Subjective-objective standard
Post Incident Statements – Why they can help you;
Post Incident Statements – Why they can hurt you;
Criminal Procedure – Your arrest, bail and the court process;
Plea bargains – The what & why of the deal;
Modifying a weapon – does it matter, and if so, how?;
Training – Friend or Foe?

Then the rest of the day as experience/example learning in which students would have had the lessons in the lecture on rules of engagement, and the aftermath - then have one or two people (instuctors, maybe students) interact as role players, with students as witness.

Some students will get to see the whole thing from start to finish (but won't know what is supposed to occur), and others get introduced at various times as witnesses (who may or may not be allowed to intervene) who will, after the scenario ends, give a statement to the 'responding officer'.

Those student witnesses who are permitted to intervene will have to justify any actions, if they acted, and others will just have to recount what they saw happen.

(Will it match the cameras, other statements or the descriptions of the participants? :) )

Not force on force evolutions, but observation excercises to have people issue spot things discussed in 3-D, real-time, under a little bit of stress.

The goals of this would be to be able to relate the lecture to an observed example, not just a "what if" situation. You heard the lecture, you saw/participated in scenarios, now put it togther and apply it to any training you have...and if you don't have any (most didn't) you can see why training helps.


What should be part of it?

Police interrogation post incident?
Contrasting the statements of various witnesses, and the camera recordings done from various positions?
Listening to the incident audio only as if it was a 911 tape to see how the police/prosecution is going to hear it?
Issue spotting for the class regarding retreat/no retreat & appropriateness of force used?
Difference between a good light v. low light scenario regarding observation and reactions?

I don't want to create a force on force class, I want a practical application of lecture topics from 1st hand student participation and review that makes the issues more easily understood.

Discuss.

[BaiHu]

Sounds good to me, but I have a few questions.

1. Will this class apply equally to people out of CT?
2. Will this cover the 'what ifs' of being pulled over while carrying, wrongful intrusions, etc?
3. Will you be able to attend this virtually via Skype or some other system?

I think that's it for my first salvo of questions.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Sounds good to me, but I have a few questions.

1. Will this class apply equally to people out of CT? It can be...
2. Will this cover the 'what ifs' of being pulled over while carrying, wrongful intrusions, etc? Pulled over while carrying, no, as thats a relatively simple situation w/o much decission making required. Wrongful intrusions - please explain what you mean.
3. Will you be able to attend this virtually via Skype or some other system? lecture, yes. scenarios...likely not.

I think that's it for my first salvo of questions.

Me in bold.

[BaiHu]

Wrongful intrusions such as police entering your home forcefully or otherwise and how to handle that situation. Similar to the marine who had his home busted into at night and was killed-maybe in AZ?



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[Mitchell, Esq.]

Wrongful intrusions such as police entering your home forcefully or otherwise and how to handle that situation. Similar to the marine who had his home busted into at night and was killed-maybe in AZ?



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Wrong class. That would be "Living with a gun & Constitutional Law for police encounters"

This is for self defense situations. The outline I emailed you, plus situations in which it comes to life.

[BaiHu]

Ah, okay.

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[NETim]

I'd like to know how to define "reasonable." For instance, over and over again I'm told gun control schemes like assault rifle bans are "reasonable" yet in light of our experience with Prohibition and the War on Drugs, I can't quite bring myself to regard such legislation as "reasonable."

So anyways, how would such a class be administered?

[nalesq]

How about some discussion of differences between how different jurisdictions may treat the same fact pattern differently due to differences in law and prosecutorial culture?

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I'd like to know how to define "reasonable." For instance, over and over again I'm told gun control schemes like assault rifle bans are "reasonable" yet in light of our experience with Prohibition and the War on Drugs, I can't quite bring myself to regard such legislation as "reasonable."

So anyways, how would such a class be administered?

Reasonable is defined in law and court cases, not in the gun control community lexicon.

I think the class would be administered as lecture/Q&A, then a scenario in which people in the class play various parts (participant, witness who is permitted but not obligated to intervene, witness who comes in towards the middle without any clue what they are actually seeing - just observing...) or observe the whole thing, then a debrief after each in which the class gets to see the various camera angles of the action, hear the witness statements and any statements made by the participants describing what they saw/felt/believed - then another scenario with the same post incident review/debrief.

Some people will have seen it all.
Others will think they have seen it all.
The camera will catch part of it...

We will sort it out afterwards for people to learn from...then do it again.

At least, that's the idea for now.

[David Armstrong]

Something that I do in my Issues in Self Defense class is set up a scenario in a room then have various witnesses come by and stand in the door for various time frames, then go "report to the police" what is happening. It is good in that it allows them to actually see how various parts of the scene may not reflect the whole thing, how different people interpret the same thing, how pieces of the event may seem contradictory, etc.

[jar]

If you make this happen somewhere in CT when I'm not traveling somewhere else, I'll be there.

Do you know any police officers who'd be willing to role-play the responding officer? If you have him/her outside the room and come in to question the participant and various witnesses you described and outline what would go in the report, that could be hugely eye opening.

You should give Jon Green at GOAL-Massachusetts a call. He and the late Darius Arbabi (a MA attorney) did a similar though not as extensive class called 'The Art of Concealed Carry'. (It also included some basic info on gun and holster options.)

[Mitchell, Esq.]

If you make this happen somewhere in CT when I'm not traveling somewhere else, I'll be there.

Do you know any police officers who'd be willing to role-play the responding officer? If you have him/her outside the room and come in to question the participant and various witnesses you described and outline what would go in the report, that could be hugely eye opening.

You should give Jon Green at GOAL-Massachusetts a call. He and the late Darius Arbabi (a MA attorney) did a similar though not as extensive class called 'The Art of Concealed Carry'. (It also included some basic info on gun and holster options.)

I can arrange for this to happen...

[MDS]

Love it. Having gone through one of your awesome "on the phone" lectures, I really dig the idea of realistic/simulated case studies after the lecture, complete with cop interviews and maybe a mock mini-trial. In fact, I'd like to see a case study evolve during the lecture, where you tell more and more of the story as the lecture progresses, so you kind of weave the story into the lecture. For myself, I think that would breathe some life into the theoretical/lecture part and help me retain it and apply it during the case studies that follow.


What is reasonable when it comes to using force?;

And I might fly to CT for the class if you call this block of instruction "Press Out or Punch Out?" ;)

[EVP]

Sounds like a great idea! It would be awesome for other people at a distance to be able to participate through skype or whatever.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I'd like to know how to define "reasonable." For instance, over and over again I'm told gun control schemes like assault rifle bans are "reasonable" yet in light of our experience with Prohibition and the War on Drugs, I can't quite bring myself to regard such legislation as "reasonable."

So anyways, how would such a class be administered?

So, you would want a lot of material on how the term reasonable is applied to a use of force incident, and how tactics and law can be reconsiled into something usable for you?

[voodoo_man]

If this class is close by enough I'd be interested in taking it, and acting as whatever police officer you need someone to play during questioning/initial response/etc etc

[Bigguy]

I'm a fairly new member and I was just scrolling through old topics when this one caught my eye.
Did you have the class? How did it go?
I'm going to start looking for something like it here in NE Texas. sounds like a class I'd like to take.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

I'm a fairly new member and I was just scrolling through old topics when this one caught my eye.
Did you have the class? How did it go?
I'm going to start looking for something like it here in NE Texas. sounds like a class I'd like to take.

Not yet.

My life ambushed me, and I had to deal with some stuff.

It's back on the front burner.

[NickA]

I'm a fairly new member and I was just scrolling through old topics when this one caught my eye.
Did you have the class? How did it go?
I'm going to start looking for something like it here in NE Texas. sounds like a class I'd like to take.

Not exactly NE Texas but Massad Ayoob will have his MAG 20 class in Victoria in a few weeks:
http://massadayoobgroup.com/?page_id=121
I would be going if work hadn't screwed me.

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[shootist26]

I am in MA and am willing to travel to CT to take this course

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Love it. Having gone through one of your awesome "on the phone" lectures, I really dig the idea of realistic/simulated case studies after the lecture, complete with cop interviews and maybe a mock mini-trial.

In fact, I'd like to see a case study evolve during the lecture, where you tell more and more of the story as the lecture progresses, so you kind of weave the story into the lecture. For myself, I think that would breathe some life into the theoretical/lecture part and help me retain it and apply it during the case studies that follow.



And I might fly to CT for the class if you call this block of instruction "Press Out or Punch Out?" ;)

I do not believe I can accommodate your wishes for an ongoing story, as my lecture is more of a fundamentals lecture, and using a scenario runs counter to what I believe is an effective way to learn.

Scenarios are brittle teaching tools when it comes to classroom or lecture. Change one fact in the scenario and things break down.

I prefer to teach from a fundamentals of law point of view, and as far as I've been able to play with the material, I see it as either-or in lesson style.

However...The class name will be changed to accommodate you*!

Which Sunday in July 2013 is good for you - 14th, 21st or 28th?

:cool:


In all seriousness...I'm setting up a class with scenarios after the lecture in which sims will be available.

I was introduced to a local Simunition instructor (I checked simunition's webpage to verify he's on the "Approved Range Program" list, and he is - http://simunition.com/en/range_program/united_states/Connecticut - Chris Fields, King 33, LLC) and I'm going to be offering the class with/through him.

I may have a police officer do the post shooting interview if I can arrange it. I have someone in in mind, but if he's not available, I'll need to make alternative plans for a police officer.

Same topics as before for the lecture (it has been tweaked); however, 3 scenarios will be acted on.

These will be scenarios in which a no-shoot option may (sometimes the right answer is to shoot...or sometimes not.) be available.

A student in the scenario will have to respond to the situation with the rest of the class observing for a post scenario breakdown of the justification for actions taken according to the material presented in the lecture.

If I can get a police officer to conduct a brief post incident interview, so much the better. That's not firm yet.

In essence, you get your scenario, but after the lecture on law.

If you can suggest a better way to do it, please do.

I'm estimating 5 to 5.5 hours for this. Cost anticipated to be $65 to $75 & $1/sim round used.

*(OK, no, it's not...It's still going to be self defense & the law...)

[jar]

In essence, you get your scenario, but after the lecture on law.

If you can suggest a better way to do it, please do.

I'm estimating 5 to 5.5 hours for this. Cost anticipated to be $65 to $75 & $1/sim round used.


Sounds similar to what Jon Green and the late Darius Arbabi did for GOAL's "Art of Concealed Carry in MA" class when I took it years ago. I believe Jon is still teaching the class in the same format. They used blue guns in the classroom for the scenarios though. Sims may be a distraction (need for protective equipment, getting mired in the tactics issues instead of the legal ones) from the perspective of a pure law class, but a law + sim scenarios class certainly has merit too and may get more people to show up.

[shootist26]

keep us updated on this class. I am a definite in. July/August is basically completely free for me.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Its yet to be scheduled but will be soon, so if you have a date preference please let me know.

[Odin Bravo One]

In all seriousness...I'm setting up a class with scenarios after the lecture in which sims will be available.

Same topics as before for the lecture (it has been tweaked); however, 3 scenarios will be acted on.

These will be scenarios in which a no-shoot option may (sometimes the right answer is to shoot...or sometimes not.) be available.

A student in the scenario will have to respond to the situation with the rest of the class observing for a post scenario breakdown of the justification for actions taken according to the material presented in the lecture.

In essence, you get your scenario, but after the lecture on law.

If you can suggest a better way to do it, please do.

I'm estimating 5 to 5.5 hours for this. Cost anticipated to be $65 to $75 & $1/sim round used.



The scenario after the lecture certainly makes a lot of sense. No point putting students into a situation where the material hasn't even been covered yet. Most of the time. But, having been in similar classes, as well as incidents, I have found that the covering the fundamental law portion, followed by the scenarios (video taped), and finish the course with the post-shooting lecture.

So basically you get the information you need. Scenario practical exercise to "show" situations/scenarios and how the law needs to influence the decisions and decision making process. The scenario is executed, and concluded with the post-shooting interview (also taped). Finish the course with post-shooting legal information, some case law examples, and "how to", "do's and do not's" for the interview after a use of force situation.

This allows the student to get the legal knowledge they need, apply what they learned, and then feel the pressure of having to justify their actions, recall sequence of events, details of the incident etc., immediately following the event. By giving them the opportunity to interview prior to that part being covered in the course, it exposes the student to their own mindset, and how they think, versus simply performing a dialogue based on an instructors ideas and what they as students were taught. Knowing yourself, and how you view things without outside influence can be a very important matter, and is extremely useful information when trying to articulate why you felt you needed to kill someone.

Each student gets a copy of their own scenarios, and interviews to take home with them & review on their own time, after the lecture on post-shooting procedures so they can self-assess in addition to the debrief/feedback they received at the time.

The actual shooting is the easy part of a lethal force encounter. Reading the situation, correctly interpreting the situation, applying fundamentals of the law into the decision making process, executing the decision, then answering for, and justifying the actions you took is where many people find themselves lost, confused, in trouble, etc.

But that's just me...........either way, it should prove to be a most informative and beneficial course for anyone fortunate enough to attend.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

http://www.king33training.com/

http://www.king33training.com/calendar/

See 7/21/2013

It should be fun...