Optic help!

[Paladin]

I just purchase a 11.5 Geissele AR and I’m going to put a 1-6 LPVO on it. Every other AR I own has a red dot but I have a stigmatism and would like to have something I could grab in a hurry if need be and utilize without my glasses. It will be a home defense, plinking, training, hunting gun. I’ve narrowed it down to either-
Leupold MK-6
Kahles K16i
Night Force ATACR
I would truly appreciate advice on which of the 3 you would purchase as I don’t have a lot knowledge with LPVO’s thanks in advance for any and all input.

God Bless,
Rick

[ASH556]

Kahles or NX8. ATACR not worth the $$ or size and weight penalty on that gun.

[TOTS]

I have no time behind any of those options but listening to Primary and Secondary podcasts, Steve Fisher states the Khales is the way to go regardless of money.

[David S.]

I have no time behind any of those options but listening to Primary and Secondary podcasts, Steve Fisher states the Khales is the way to go regardless of money.

It's hard to keep up. Last I heard, Fisher recommends Vortex PST II, Vortex Razor and Khales, depending on price point. I recall he spoke positively about the Steiner 1-4 and Trijicon Accu Point too, tho those optics may be viewed as dated now. As of this spring, Fisher is an "official shill" (TIC) for Vortex Optics, but he's been recommending their mid to high end optics for longer than I've been paying attention.

ETA: Keep an eye on the ARFCOM and M4C marketplaces for pre-owned. All the optics listed above pop up fairly regularly.

[Wake27]

I just purchase a 11.5 Geissele AR and I’m going to put a 1-6 LPVO on it. Every other AR I own has a red dot but I have a stigmatism and would like to have something I could grab in a hurry if need be and utilize without my glasses. It will be a home defense, plinking, training, hunting gun. I’ve narrowed it down to either-
Leupold MK-6
Kahles K16i
Night Force ATACR
I would truly appreciate advice on which of the 3 you would purchase as I don’t have a lot knowledge with LPVO’s thanks in advance for any and all input.

God Bless,
Rick

Why isn’t the Razor on that list?


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[LittleLebowski]

CS Tactical

[Paladin]

CS Tactical

I tried them first because I saw them here, unfortunately I didn’t have a great experience the person that answered was having computer issues I offered to let him call me back and no one ever did.
Rick

[Paladin]

Why isn’t the Razor on that list?
Razor is a great piece of kit but I was actually trying to go even a little higher tier.
Rick

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[Wake27]

If your goal is HD, I’m not sure the MK6 is in a higher tier. For 1x performance, I think Razor 1-6 or 1-10x, Khales, and ATACR are the best you’ll get for that.


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[TOTS]

It's hard to keep up. Last I heard, Fisher recommends Vortex PST II, Vortex Razor and Khales, depending on price point. I recall he spoke positively about the Steiner 1-4 and Trijicon Accu Point too, tho those optics may be viewed as dated now. As of this spring, Fisher is an "official shill" (TIC) for Vortex Optics, but he's been recommending their mid to high end optics for longer than I've been paying attention.

ETA: Keep an eye on the ARFCOM and M4C marketplaces for pre-owned. All the optics listed above pop up fairly regularly.

You’re right. Just keeping to the list the OP was referencing. I’ll find the podcast I was referring to.


Why isn’t the Razor on that list?

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It is. He loved the gen II and the III even more. He discusses here https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/vortex-razor-hd-gen-iii-1-10-overview-with-steve-yeti-fisher/

Here he ranks them. Short version: Khales, Vortex GenII (pre III), (Swarovski and Schmidt and Bender somewhere in here), Vortex PST, Burris, Trijicon TR-24, Meopta, Steiner. Tried to keep this in order of his recommendations.
https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/best-ar-15-scopes-steve-yeti-fisher/

[Wake27]

You’re right. Just keeping to the list the OP was referencing. I’ll find the podcast I was referring to.



It is. He loved the gen II and the III even more. He discusses here https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/vortex-razor-hd-gen-iii-1-10-overview-with-steve-yeti-fisher/

I was referring to the OP’s list.


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[Paladin]

I really haven’t the slightest on what is best that’s why I’m asking for help from the pros here, I really want to get the best currently available and have tried to read and research and I was just about settled on the Kahles K16i and then started seeing info on the benefits of first focal plane vs 2nd and that started the confusion all over again. So advice and the why behind it would be greatly appreciated.
God Bless,
Rick

[Wake27]

I really haven’t the slightest on what is best that’s why I’m asking for help from the pros here, I really want to get the best currently available and have tried to read and research and I was just about settled on the Kahles K16i and then started seeing info on the benefits of first focal plane vs 2nd and that started the confusion all over again. So advice and the why behind it would be greatly appreciated.
God Bless,
Rick

For HD, I think SFP vs FFP isn't even a necessary discussion, though SFP tend to be better on 1x. FFP will really only matter (IMO) at higher magnification levels/longer distances. I wouldn't want anything over a 1-6 in SFP. If budget isn't a concern and you want ultimate do-all capability, try to find a Razor 1-10 or ATACR. Otherwise I vote Razor 1-6. Most people like the Khales a little better but that price point is pushing Razor 1-10 so I don't see the point.

[Old Man Winter]

Here's a few videos that may help or muddy the waters if you haven't already seen them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU3HVeaDkb8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks0ix7jbaTY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHzvI6zu7Mo

[David S.]

LPVO discussion (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34954-Duty-Grade-LPVO-at-a-Budget)

The light weight Khales K16i, Leupold VX6HD, and Steiner PX4i really appeal to me.

[TOTS]

For HD, I think SFP vs FFP isn't even a necessary discussion, though SFP tend to be better on 1x. FFP will really only matter (IMO) at higher magnification levels/longer distances. I wouldn't want anything over a 1-6 in SFP. If budget isn't a concern and you want ultimate do-all capability, try to find a Razor 1-10 or ATACR. Otherwise I vote Razor 1-6. Most people like the Khales a little better but that price point is pushing Razor 1-10 so I don't see the point.

Pretty much all this; couldn’t have said it better.

As to “why” behind everything- both the Razor in FFP and SFP will give you a true 1 power At the bottom. The difference between the two will come as you move towards the top end of the magnification. As you move up in magnification, on SFP, the reticle stays the same. Doesn’t move. So the value of the subtending on the reticle will change as you change magnification. Most are calibrated at the highest magnification. I e, 1-6x, on 6x the hashes will indicate a set value. Say 1 mil. Change magnification to say, 3, and the value subtended will change by the same ratio. 6/3=2 so now that same hashmark subtends 2 mils. Since math gets hard, SFP are usually ran on min or max power. First Focal scopes have a reticle that moves as you dial in magnification. The reticle sub tensions will still represent the same value regardless of the magnification set. 1 mil marks at 6x will still be 1 mil at 3x. Or 4x or 2.5x. (I personally don’t understand why some give a magnification limit as a trigger to go from Second to First; I’m still learning stuff. Maybe because the dot or center marks on FFP at higher than 4-6x will cover so much of the target at lower magnifications that it’s detrimental?)

There is no BEST. Only the appropriate choice for your application. So, I ask how you plan on using the scope? If you want to shoot farther out and hold for wind/distance effects using the reticle markings and retain the ability to dial down for close shots and maximize field of view- sounds like First plane is what you want. Mostly shooting closer shots utilizing the scope as a red dot But want the ability to zoom in for greater visual acuity and take some distance shots every now and again? Second will work for you.

Right now the Vortex Razors are being recommended to you because the GenIII 1-10 is really the only one in it’s class right now, giving you a single scope that does everything you would need BOTH the traditional 1-6 SFP AND FFP 2.5-10s to do. The GenII 1-6 is being discounted for so low right now that nothing comes close to it’s performance at the price point they can be had for.

Just my understanding...

[Andy T]

I own Mk6 1-6. No experience with others. I am fairly happy with it and used in a number of classes, although using it around barricades on my support shoulder was a bit of chore compared to a red dot. Plus the illumination is head position dependent.
My primary reason for buying it: I got a good deal and at the time MK6 was one of the few options. Plus they had (still have?) military contracts. Despite these issues, I have no plans on selling it/getting something else.
My advice: Find a good deal on a used optic, buy it, use it. If you don't like it, sell it and buy something else.

[Outlier]

Let me preface this with I consider myself to be a beginner-level shooter and I'm new to the whole LVPO thing. I found the eyebox on the Leupold MK6 1-6 to be too small to be useable for me. The illumination flicker was distracting as well. Luckily I picked it up used so I didn't lose my shirt when I sold it. Learning that I was eyebox sensitive I narrowed my choices down to the Vortex or the Kahles. I would have went with the Vortex if I could have found a used one for a good price but could not so I went with the Kahles. I liked the weight and reticle options of the Kahles more than the Vortex. I'm happy with the illumination on the Kahles but I don't think the adjustment is as good as what the Vortex and Leupold have. It doesn't have an off-position between each brightness setting. I hope to make it out to the range with my buddy in the next few weeks who has the Vortex Razor 1-6 so we can have a hands on comparison between the two. HTH.

[pew_pew]

The Kahles is the best 1-6 SFP Scope on the market. The Vortex Razor gets pretty close for a lot less money. I don’t like any of the Kahles reticles so I ordered a Razor today actually. Not sure I got the right reticle with that but we’ll see. JM1 reticle with a Scalarworks 1.57 Mount.

Comparing FFP scopes to SFP scopes doesn’t make a ton of sense usually. Totally different things with different purposes. The NX8 seems to have a lot of problems but if size and weight are your primary factors for a FFP scope then it might work. ATACR is a beast but considered by many to Be the best do it all optic before the razor III came out.

[pew_pew]

Pretty much all this; couldn’t have said it better.

As to “why” behind everything- both the Razor in FFP and SFP will give you a true 1 power At the bottom. The difference between the two will come as you move towards the top end of the magnification. As you move up in magnification, on SFP, the reticle stays the same. Doesn’t move. So the value of the subtending on the reticle will change as you change magnification. Most are calibrated at the highest magnification. I e, 1-6x, on 6x the hashes will indicate a set value. Say 1 mil. Change magnification to say, 3, and the value subtended will change by the same ratio. 6/3=2 so now that same hashmark subtends 2 mils. Since math gets hard, SFP are usually ran on min or max power. First Focal scopes have a reticle that moves as you dial in magnification. The reticle sub tensions will still represent the same value regardless of the magnification set. 1 mil marks at 6x will still be 1 mil at 3x. Or 4x or 2.5x. (I personally don’t understand why some give a magnification limit as a trigger to go from Second to First; I’m still learning stuff. Maybe because the dot or center marks on FFP at higher than 4-6x will cover so much of the target at lower magnifications that it’s detrimental?)

There is no BEST. Only the appropriate choice for your application. So, I ask how you plan on using the scope? If you want to shoot farther out and hold for wind/distance effects using the reticle markings and retain the ability to dial down for close shots and maximize field of view- sounds like First plane is what you want. Mostly shooting closer shots utilizing the scope as a red dot But want the ability to zoom in for greater visual acuity and take some distance shots every now and again? Second will work for you.

Right now the Vortex Razors are being recommended to you because the GenIII 1-10 is really the only one in it’s class right now, giving you a single scope that does everything you would need BOTH the traditional 1-6 SFP AND FFP 2.5-10s to do. The GenII 1-6 is being discounted for so low right now that nothing comes close to it’s performance at the price point they can be had for.

Just my understanding...

The Gen IIs aren’t being discounted. The Gen ii and Gen iii are different scopes for different purposes. The Gen iii does seem to be very versatile though.

[Wake27]

The Gen IIs aren’t being discounted. The Gen ii and Gen iii are different scopes for different purposes. The Gen iii does seem to be very versatile though.

He said discounted, I did the same thing at first.

[pew_pew]

He said discounted, I did the same thing at first.

Yea I understood it as discounted. But they aren’t. The Gen II Es are still normal priced from everything I’m seeing. Makes sense because they aren’t going anywhere. The Gen ii and iii will stay in the lineups for different purposes.

[Wake27]

Yea I understood it as discounted. But they aren’t. The Gen II Es are still normal priced from everything I’m seeing. Makes sense because they aren’t going anywhere. The Gen ii and iii will stay in the lineups for different purposes.

Shit I thought you said discontinued. I suck at reading comprehension right now.


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[OlongJohnson]

I've just read all three reticle manuals for the Razor II-E. I'm no expert, but this is my takeaway. (First two are universally applicable, third is Razor specific.)

MRAD - relatively easy to do the math so you can use it for ranging, but you have to change from thinking in MOA to thinking in MRAD. If you have other rifles with other scopes that work in MOA (even duplex reticles with MOA adjustments), this requires you to be bilingual and carries built-in opportunity for confusing oneself. Probably the most powerful tool if you are willing and able to commit to it.

MOA - can still use it for ranging, but the math is less elegant. Or if you're OK being off by 4.7%, you can simplify it quite a bit. You can think in MOA for this and for all your other scopes that are adjusted in MOA and may have MOA-based reticles. More likely to be compatible with your other stuff if you have a variety of equipment.

JM-1 - designed for shooting as quickly as possible at ranges identified using other means (like a rangefinder). Hash marks are customized to the ballistics of specific bullets at a specific MV range (typical ARs). Minimal (almost no) support of windage compensation via the reticle. Simplicated and streamlined, customized for a specific role. Probably the best if that's what you intend to do with it, but ultimately less versatile/universal than the others.

Is that a reasonable summary?

[Wake27]

I've just read all three reticle manuals for the Razor II-E. I'm no expert, but this is my takeaway. (First two are universally applicable, third is Razor specific.)

MRAD - relatively easy to do the math so you can use it for ranging, but you have to change from thinking in MOA to thinking in MRAD. If you have other rifles with other scopes that work in MOA (even duplex reticles with MOA adjustments), this requires you to be bilingual and carries built-in opportunity for confusing oneself. Probably the most powerful tool if you are willing and able to commit to it.

MOA - can still use it for ranging, but the math is less elegant. Or if you're OK being off by 4.7%, you can simplify it quite a bit. You can think in MOA for this and for all your other scopes that are adjusted in MOA and may have MOA-based reticles. More likely to be compatible with your other stuff if you have a variety of equipment.

JM-1 - designed for shooting as quickly as possible at ranges identified using other means (like a rangefinder). Hash marks are customized to the ballistics of specific bullets at a specific MV range (typical ARs). Minimal (almost no) support of windage compensation via the reticle. Simplicated and streamlined, customized for a specific role. Probably the best if that's what you intend to do with it, but ultimately less versatile/universal than the others.

Is that a reasonable summary?

I think so, but it’s worth noting that the JM-1 is an MOA reticle so it shares that benefit of commonality with pretty much every red dot but also that MILs is the universal language for long range shooters so if you choose MOA or JM-1, you’ll be speaking a different language if you ever work with anyone else.


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[pew_pew]

I think so, but it’s worth noting that the JM-1 is an MOA reticle so it shares that benefit of commonality with pretty much every red dot but also that MILs is the universal language for long range shooters so if you choose MOA or JM-1, you’ll be speaking a different language if you ever work with anyone else.


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This is true but the Gen II isn’t a long range scope either. At least not the 1-6. There’s pros and cons to them all I guess though so sometimes it takes some trial and error to see what you like.

[SteveB]

I just purchase a 11.5 Geissele AR and I’m going to put a 1-6 LPVO on it. Every other AR I own has a red dot but I have a stigmatism and would like to have something I could grab in a hurry if need be and utilize without my glasses. It will be a home defense, plinking, training, hunting gun. I’ve narrowed it down to either-
Leupold MK-6
Kahles K16i
Night Force ATACR
I would truly appreciate advice on which of the 3 you would purchase as I don’t have a lot knowledge with LPVO’s thanks in advance for any and all input.

God Bless,
Rick

What kind of hunting are you planning to do with an 11.5” 5.56? If I had to choose from the 3 scopes you listed, I’d go with the Kahles. Of course, if you’re going to spend Kahles money, you could also consider Swarovski. Once you reach that price point, you’re going to get great build quality, superb glass and lighter weight. The choice becomes largely about reticle selection, which is determined by how you’re going to use the rifle. I’ve used Vortex, NF, Leupold, Kahles and Swarovski 1-6 scopes for 3-gun and hunting a variety of animals over different terrain and conditions. My favorite LPVO is the Swarovski Z6i or Z8i with the BRT reticle. Swarovski has an online ballistic calculator that allows you to enter your load and get drops for your reticle. I’ve found it to be reliable. If you don’t need a ballistic reticle, the 4A is uncluttered and the dot is bright and crisp. For 3-gun, where you need to make quick shots on targets at various ranges, the ballistic reticle is terrific. For me, hunting with an LPVO has always been inside 200, so no drops necessary. Pig hunting in south Florida involves shooting moving targets low to the ground, moving in and out of brush through varying light. The Swaros can’t be beat for FOV, clarity, brightness, dot quality.

[Paladin]

What kind of hunting are you planning to do with an 11.5” 5.56? If I had to choose from the 3 scopes you listed, I’d go with the Kahles. Of course, if you’re going to spend Kahles money, you could also consider Swarovski. Once you reach that price point, you’re going to get great build quality, superb glass and lighter weight. The choice becomes largely about reticle selection, which is determined by how you’re going to use the rifle. I’ve used Vortex, NF, Leupold, Kahles and Swarovski 1-6 scopes for 3-gun and hunting a variety of animals over different terrain and conditions. My favorite LPVO is the Swarovski Z6i or Z8i with the BRT reticle. Swarovski has an online ballistic calculator that allows you to enter your load and get drops for your reticle. I’ve found it to be reliable. If you don’t need a ballistic reticle, the 4A is uncluttered and the dot is bright and crisp. For 3-gun, where you need to make quick shots on targets at various ranges, the ballistic reticle is terrific. For me, hunting with an LPVO has always been inside 200, so no drops necessary. Pig hunting in south Florida involves shooting moving targets low to the ground, moving in and out of brush through varying light. The Swaros can’t be beat for FOV, clarity, brightness, dot quality.

Thanks for your response! What makes Swarovski better than the Kahles in your opinion as I think I’ve narrowed it down to one of the 2.
Thanks again,
Rick

[SteveB]

Thanks for your response! What makes Swarovski better than the Kahles in your opinion as I think I’ve narrowed it down to one of the 2.
Thanks again,
Rick

It’s the reticle for me. Most of my rifle shooting these days is hunting or hunting prep. My Kahles reticle is the SM-1, great for most things, but I prefer the less cluttered Swaro reticle for hunting. You can’t go wrong with either scope.

[Wake27]

If those things are still going for like $2k, you can find razor 1-10s for the same price...


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[CS Tactical]

I tried them first because I saw them here, unfortunately I didn’t have a great experience the person that answered was having computer issues I offered to let him call me back and no one ever did.
Rick

I apologize for your experience, I'm not sure who handled the call but it was not intentional. PM's or email sales@cstactical.com with your phone numbers work best as I can reach out to you once we are free.
We are a small company and during this Pandemic we've been overwhelmed with an extra 100 calls and emails per day of people looking for typical 9mm handguns, Shotguns, ammo which is stuff we do not normally stock since it's not our typical business model.

[Paladin]

No problem, I would much rather give my business to someone on the forum than a stranger! I will pm you when I’m off work!
Thanks for getting back to me,
Rick

[Paladin]

So Rich at CS Tactical has completely taken care of me! I received great service at a fair price which all any consumer can ask for! I should receive my Kahles K16i and Scalarworks mount Wednesday and I will give a brief review in the following days! Thank you to all who posted in an effort to help and a big thanks to Rich!

God Bless,
Rick
Pics to follow as well!

[CS Tactical]

So Rich at CS Tactical has completely taken care of me! I received great service at a fair price which all any consumer can ask for! I should receive my Kahles K16i and Scalarworks mount Wednesday and I will give a brief review in the following days! Thank you to all who posted in an effort to help and a big thanks to Rich!

God Bless,
Rick
Pics to follow as well!


You're very welcome! I'm glad I was able to assist you through the craziness :)

[Paladin]

58788

So I went to an indoor range close to the house and they only had 25 yard lanes but at 1 power it was still super fun and really really fast! I chose a 1-6 over a dot because of my Astigmatism and was concerned about scope shadow making it slower! Well let me tell you that was absolutely not a problem. The eye relief on the Kahles is awesome. As I shoot it more I will update but so far so good. I will also give some feedback on the Geissele super duty 11.5 which so far has also been pretty awesome! Bill definitely did a great job with the gas system as it is super soft shooting.
Be blessed and safe,
Rick