Swampfox Optics

[backtrail540]

Initially when I came across these, I just wrote them off as cheap entry level dots and didn't think much about them. But I'm seeing them more often in the hands of more knowledgeable/experienced folks and that has caused me to take a second look - most recently in the hands of TCinVA on a milled glock 48.

Does anyone here have any experience with them that could comment on durability, quality, battery life, etc...

Website for reference - https://www.swampfoxoptics.com/

[mtnbkr]

I just learned about these the other day as well. I had the same initial reaction, so it will be interesting to hear from more experienced folks.

Chris

[Tackleberry40sw]

I have been aware of them for quite some time. There is a 56 page thread on arfcom in the optics section of the ar15 topic button. Their marketing director, Mike Branson, is on the thread frequently.

I have an astigmatism and I'm in progressive lenses as well as left eye dominant to childhood last eye in my right eye. I bought one of the Swampfox "Blade" 1X prism optics with an etched reticle for my carbine for those reasons. Prior to being aware of Swampfox, I was going to buy a Primary Arms "Cyclops" 1X prism. First, Mike Branson's information and interaction was great. He is a stand up guy. The "Blade" was built for DUTY from the ground up and is a one piece mount and housing. This may not be for everyone. It also uses a CR123 battery instead of a CR2032 battery. This was a plus for me since I already stock the CR123 batteries for my pistol weapon lights. The reticle is good with a diopter to adjust clarity. It comes with lense covers, a kill flash, and a battery, in the box. Mounting was easy and was sighted in fairly quickly at 50 yards for a 50/200 zero. The only negative I can say, is that the clicks on the adjustment are not as tactile and strong as I would have liked. But, for $209 with LE discount, beggars can't be choosers.

I just bought a Liberty red dot with the "Ironsides" shield for my buddy in the DA's Office, that we will mount tonight. My thoughts will follow as we will compare it to his RMR. I do not have any red dot capable pistols yet. I'm on the fence.

I hope this helped.

[Tackleberry40sw]

I mounted the Swampfox Liberty with Ironsides protector on 42Willys Gen 5 G34. I was able to compare the Liberty to his Gen 1 RMR06 on his Gen 3 G19. First, both dots were starburst to my eyes. The domed viewing window of the Liberty was better for me than the convex viewing window of the RMR. The Liberty has a top mounted battery compartment so it does not need to be removed from the pistol to replace the battery. I look forward to helping test the sight out. The Liberty is a 22mm window and the Justice is a 27mm. I'm looking forward to the Justice being available. I hope this helps.

[TCinVA]

I have a "Liberty" sight on my Number 2 G17 and another on my 1301 for testing. I'm a fan of the wider window. I forget the spec of the aluminum they're made out of, but it's a tougher grade than the body of most other open emitter optics on the market IIRC. I have actually beaten on the body of one with a hammer without killing the optic's function. I'd wager it will be more durable than the SRO, but I can't put science behind that.

The glass is clear and doesn't give as much distortion as the RMR, and there's no tint.

If you want to mount it to an MOS handgun talk to their customer service reps about what plate to use with it.

The ability to change the battery without having to remove the optic is great, as it means you don't have to replace fasteners every time you change your battery.

My only real beef with the optic is that the brightest setting isn't quite as bright as I would like. But I have determined that I have problems seeing red dot sights anyway (I need my ACRO on max setting to see the dot most of the time in daylight shooting conditions) and other people I've handed the gun have always had to dial down the brightness, so that's more a me thing than a strike against the optic. I do wish it had one more brightness setting.

I have a Swamp Fox Arrowhead 1-10x mounted on my Giessele rifle. I've had the chance to compare that to several other optics on the market including Nightforce's offerings, Vortex's PST-II 1-6x, and even the GenII Razor 1-10x.

The quality of the optic is, at a minimum, equal to the PSTII. Having used it back to back with the Nightforce 1-8x from up close out to 300 yards, I didn't see any difference in the clarity of the glass or the usability of the optic. At 200 and 300 the extra 2X allowed me to call shots a little bit better. I like the reticle for work up close or at distance. I find the Nightforce style reticle kind of gets in the way on smaller targets at higher magnification. It has already survived a shoulder-height fall directly on the optic with the full weight of the rifle driving it into gravel. (Never let a newbie use your brand new rifle) The red illuminated reticle is weaksauce in bright daylight. Supposedly the green one is better, but I haven't tried one yet. The etched reticle is still visible and easy to use in bright light so I don't miss it.

In its price range it's really tough to beat.

I've put about 3,000 rounds through Number 2 with the "Justice" mounted and at this point I wouldn't hesitate to carry the gun if Number 1 was unable to serve. If I had to permanently switch I'd put an ACRO on Number 2 just because the ACRO is probably the most durable slide-mounted RDS on the market and I'd like to have that on a daily carry gun. In the newly emerging micro-dot market, I'd happily run their micro on a 365 or one of the single stacks as shown in the video because I don't see a much of a difference between the various Chinese manufactured micro-dots out there. I doubt there's much of a difference between the RMR sized optics from Holosun (which people seem to say are GTG, some paid and some not for saying so) in terms of quality and durability and the SwampFox offerings.

I got the units I have at a discount for T&E, but that's the extent of what I have "received" from the company for trying them out.

[orionz06]

I've gotten some stuff at a solid discount, but it's all been great. The caveat with them is that some of their early mRDS's aren't as good as the new stuff, but they'll tell you that in all the right words and they mean it. The latest generation is legit. I've got a Vortex 1-10 on the way, but my SF 1-10 is pretty pleasing to hold me over. Like Tim, I'm totally OK with it when going side by side with optics three times the price. You certainly get more, but don't forget where we were in 2008. These are better.

[42Willys]

I am looking forward to shooting the Liberty optic on my Glock 34.5. When the suppressor height irons come in and get mounted, pics will follow. The dot clarity is about the same at my RMR06 (gen1) but the Liberty has the wider field as mentioned and I like the glass better. Top loading battery is nice too.

[Trukinjp13]

Had never heard of these. Who builds them and where do them come from? I feel like
Some companies may never get a real chance when they have corny ass names.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Darth_Uno]

Had never heard of these. Who builds them and where do them come from? I feel like
Some companies may never get a real chance when they have corny ass names.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion

I like the name(s). Despite all the patriotic lingo, it's all made in China.

[ranger]

I wonder if their 5-25 34mm tube rifle optic is built at same site that makes Vortex new 5-25 34mm tube entry PRS like scope? Seems like there may be one factory that builds multiple brands.

[Cecil Burch]

So this dumb-to-red-dots guy could use a bit of help.

Is the footprint of the Swampfox micros the same as a RMR? The reason I ask is because I am building a Poly80 gun into a test bed for RDs to see if it is time for me to gt on board fully with the concept as EDC, and I would like to buy a slide pre-cut for the dot so I don't have to mess around with sending out to be milled. The problem is that almost all of the ones that are in stock are cut for RMRs. Will this work, or do I need to get a slide specifically cut for a Swampfox or Holosun?

[mtnbkr]

So this dumb-to-red-dots guy could use a bit of help.

Is the footprint of the Swampfox micros the same as a RMR? The reason I ask is because I am building a Poly80 gun into a test bed for RDs to see if it is time for me to gt on board fully with the concept as EDC, and I would like to buy a slide pre-cut for the dot so I don't have to mess around with sending out to be milled. The problem is that almost all of the ones that are in stock are cut for RMRs. Will this work, or do I need to get a slide specifically cut for a Swampfox or Holosun?

IIRC, the Swampfox ones claim to be RMR-pattern (except for one of the smaller models).

That said, I know for a fact the Holosuns are RMR-sized and fit in the same cut because I did exactly what you are doing (built a P80 to try RDS on a pistol). I have since moved my Holosun to my 625, but it started out life on my P80 with Brownells slide.

ETA: Kingslayer, Justice, and Liberty all claim to be RMR-pattern and fit RMR cuts. The Sentinel is billed as being intended for slimline guns, so I would interpret that as "RMSc" pattern (ie Glock 48)

Chris

[Cecil Burch]

IIRC, the Swampfox ones claim to be RMR-pattern (except for one of the smaller models).

That said, I know for a fact the Holosuns are RMR-sized and fit in the same cut because I did exactly what you are doing (built a P80 to try RDS on a pistol). I have since moved my Holosun to my 625, but it started out life on my P80 with Brownells slide.

ETA: Kingslayer, Justice, and Liberty all claim to be RMR-pattern and fit RMR cuts. The Sentinel is billed as being intended for slimline guns, so I would interpret that as "RMSc" pattern (ie Glock 48)

Chris


THANK YOU!


Exactly what I needed. I appreciate it.

[cornstalker]

The Sentinel is billed as being intended for slimline guns, so I would interpret that as "RMSc" pattern (ie Glock 48)

Chris

Yep. Found this on the product page.


BUT WHAT DOES IT FIT?​
Sentinel is really small. About an inch tall, an inch wide, and 1.6 inches long. Shoehorned into this tiny scope is a 16mm x 16mm window, big enough for fast acquisition and sight tracking, small enough that it doesn’t affect concealability even a little. ​​

Sentinel will fit the Sig P365XL, Springfield Hellcat OSP, Canik Elite SC, S&W Shield 2.0 Optics Ready, Walther PPS M2 Optics Ready– any slimline slide with an RMSc footprint incorporated, either factory or gunsmith cut.​​​

[vcdgrips]

Their beating the patriotic drum coupled with the apparent lack of transparency re their products' country of origin is a likely pass for me.


Contrast with Blade HQ for example, they do an excellent job re transparency. One can sort by all manner of criteria and country of origin is clearly listed and easily found in the specifications.

https://www.bladehq.com/item--Extrema-Ratio-Ontos-Fixed-Blade--46484

FWIW/YMMV.

[TCinVA]

Their beating the patriotic drum coupled with the apparent lack of transparency re their products' country of origin is a likely pass for me.


Contrast with Blade HQ for example, they do an excellent job re transparency. One can sort by all manner of criteria and country of origin is clearly listed and easily found in the specifications.

https://www.bladehq.com/item--Extrema-Ratio-Ontos-Fixed-Blade--46484

FWIW/YMMV.

Swamp Fox is manufactured in China as is pretty much everything from Sig's optics line, everything from Holosun, the Vortex electronic sights and their lower end variable optics, etc.

The company itself, as I understand it, is American owned and owns the factory where the optics are made.

[srcochran49]

There Military/LE program offers a substantial 30% discount. May make it a decent way to investigate entry into the red dot world.

[BigD]

Swamp Fox is manufactured in China as is pretty much everything from Sig's optics line, everything from Holosun, the Vortex electronic sights and their lower end variable optics, etc.

The company itself, as I understand it, is American owned and owns the factory where the optics are made.

That would be unique for a start-up like Swamp Fox. Most of these optic companies are started by former product managers at other optic companies who know how to spec an optic and how to outsource manufacturing to a Chinese company (maybe even the same company that was making the products for the founder's previous employer.)

For example, the owner of Athlon was "Head of Global (out)Sourcing" at Bushnell. (note: I added out to the title.) Before that, he was 'outsourcing' at non-optic companies.

(Not sure if matters if Swamp Fox owns the factory or not. I'm not saying they don't own the factory, just that that would be different from other new optic companies.)

[BigD]

Their beating the patriotic drum coupled with the apparent lack of transparency re their products' country of origin is a likely pass for me.


Contrast with Blade HQ for example, they do an excellent job re transparency. One can sort by all manner of criteria and country of origin is clearly listed and easily found in the specifications.

https://www.bladehq.com/item--Extrema-Ratio-Ontos-Fixed-Blade--46484

FWIW/YMMV.




Swamp Fox is manufactured in China as is pretty much everything from Sig's optics line, everything from Holosun, the Vortex electronic sights and their lower end variable optics, etc.

The company itself, as I understand it, is American owned and owns the factory where the optics are made.


It's obvious to anyone that's awake that Swamp Fox's products are made somewhere in Asia. I think the issue is laying it on so thick with the "Liberty" and "Justice" and "Ironsides" etc. "Swamp Fox" itself is a reference to a Revolutionary war hero. All the "USA! USA!" just seems off when Swamp Fox is likely dozen or so American employees and a bunch of Chinese engineers and assemblers

[ranger]

There Military/LE program offers a substantial 30% discount. May make it a decent way to investigate entry into the red dot world.

I just signed up for an account and quickly got mil discount opportunity. I am looking at their 5-25 "precision" optic for one of my 223 trainers.

[Old Man Winter]

The marketing dude from Swamp Fox laid out how they came to be on another site early last year. Some un-named China is asshoe optics factory who OEM's for several companies decided they wanted to go direct to consumer and Swamp Fox Optics is that vehicle. Someone involved has Army SOF ties and that's behind the naming convention.

ETA: On the gram they show SF guys OCONUS running the Arrowhead LPVO's on various blasters.

[ranger]

Tough to get details on Swampfox - the other forums focused on long range rifle fill up the threads with "China bad" vs technical discussion.

[TCinVA]

Tough to get details on Swampfox - the other forums focused on long range rifle fill up the threads with "China bad" vs technical discussion.

I see that a lot of places too. And while I agree with the sentiment and I'm no fan of the Chinese Communist Party assholes, a lot of the people saying those things have absolutely no idea where the stuff they are buying is made. I see "I buy American! That's why I buy Vortex!" from people posting pictures of their Strike Eagle and I feel that stabbing pain behind my right eye that tells me it's time to go stare at the sun for a while.

It's not just optics. A number of guitar manufacturers are selling "made in the USA" guitars that are "made" from parts imported from China. Wood, hardware, pickups, pots, switches, the lot. It all gets shipped to a factory in the US where they do some assembly and final finishing and charge a premium because "made in USA!"

People struggle with the international nature of commerce (A Honda Accord is a more domestically manufactured vehicle than, say, many cars offered by "domestic" makes) and sourcing of parts and materials is often kept quite close to the vest.

Undoing all of that is like trying to untangle a backlashed baitcaster reel. Or Christmas lights. When you're blindfolded. And you can only use your two index fingers.

[vcdgrips]

“Undoing all of that is like trying to untangle a backlashed baitcaster reel. Or Christmas lights. When you're blindfolded. And you can only use your two index fingers.”

While perhaps true, that is because manufacturers in the first instance and retailers in the last often choose to be less than forthcoming, deliberately, with an agenda for doing so, in my personal opinion re their products’ country of origin.

I get that Chinese made goods can be superlative-Apple and Arcteryx are but two well known examples. Neither wrap themselves in a rah rah ‘Merica motif. Swampfox clearly is.

To extrapolate, it was important to my son that he attend an unapologetically Christian college. To him, that meant 2 things as he searched:

1. Weekly Chapel
2. It should be clear within 2 clicks on the website re the essential essence of the school.

Maybe I just did not make the correct two clicks on Swampfox website re country of origin/manufacture/supply etc...but I doubt it. The Swampfox “about “ tab is chock full of info. If they wanted their potential American customer base to know that they are changing the paradigm by manufacturing in Asia in a factory that SF owns and they are passing the savings on to the customer, they could say that.

[BigD]

The marketing dude from Swamp Fox laid out how they came to be on another site early last year. Some un-named China is asshoe optics factory who OEM's for several companies decided they wanted to go direct to consumer and Swamp Fox Optics is that vehicle. Someone involved has Army SOF ties and that's behind the naming convention.

ETA: On the gram they show SF guys OCONUS running the Arrowhead LPVO's on various blasters.


Who am I to say it's wrong for a Chinese company to appropriate the name of a guerrilla warfare pioneer and Revolutionary War hero? Either you think it is wrong or you think it isn't wrong.

That the marketing guy for the Chinese company claims there was an undefined tie to an unidentified person with ties to Army SOF doesn't make the name correct. Unless COL Banks is the majority shareholder, I don't want to hear some weak sauce about an SF guy making it okay to use the name.

]========

Send some free stuff to some SF guys and get them to take pics on the range. It's not a testament to much.

============

Who said this was an American company? Everything I'm reading on the 'net says it isn't.

[Paul D]

I for one welcome this company into the market. Competition is good for us. If companies like Holosun, Sig, and Shield didn't come into the market, I don't think Aimpoint, Trijicon and Leupold would be apt to be as innovative or offer lower prices.

As far as the Swampfox branding, it worked! They're being talked about, and maybe somebody will actually try them out. Like the saying goes: there is no such thing as bad publicity.

[ranger]

Does anyone have info or seen technical reviews on their 5-25 scope with 34 mm body? As someone else pointed out on another forum, every rifle does not need a $3000 scope. I am interested in a competent lower price point scope.

[ranger]

I for one welcome this company into the market. Competition is good for us. If companies like Holosun, Sig, and Shield didn't come into the market, I don't think Aimpoint, Trijicon and Leupold would be apt to be as innovative or offer lower prices.

As far as the Swampfox branding, it worked! They're being talked about, and maybe somebody will actually try them out. Like the saying goes: there is no such thing as bad publicity.

I agree. Competition is a very good thing. I have been shooting long range for a few years now and the evolution of rifle scopes is amazing - specifically the "PRS like" entry scopes. See the Vortex evolution of PST 1 to PST 2 and now their Strike Eagle 34mm model.

[Old Man Winter]

Who am I to say it's wrong for a Chinese company to appropriate the name of a guerrilla warfare pioneer and Revolutionary War hero? Either you think it is wrong or you think it isn't wrong.

That the marketing guy for the Chinese company claims there was an undefined tie to an unidentified person with ties to Army SOF doesn't make the name correct. Unless COL Banks is the majority shareholder, I don't want to hear some weak sauce about an SF guy making it okay to use the name.

Let me be clear since you quoted my post. What I posted was informational in nature and not done to justify anything about this company. I'm not a stakeholder or customer invested in defending my purchase. The entire naming convention is weak sauce when tied to a china is asshoe product regardless of who's involved.

[BigD]

Let me be clear since you quoted my post. What I posted was informational in nature and not done to justify anything about this company. I'm not a stakeholder or customer invested in defending my purchase. The entire naming convention is weak sauce when tied to a china is asshoe product regardless of who's involved.

I understood you were passing the information along, not trying to justify the name. My little rant was meant for Swamp Fox, not you.

[orionz06]

Who said this was an American company? Everything I'm reading on the 'net says it isn't.
They are. I've actually met the guy. I don't dig the overly patriotic shit either, but thankfully the optics look like optics, not bass boats covered in stickers. Mike Branson has done a pretty solid job at being open with who-what-why-how the company runs. I'd rather buy from someone who will tell you to your face all that than someone who tries to bury their sources.

[vcdgrips]

"I'd rather buy from someone who will tell you to your face all that than someone who tries to bury their sources."


I think myself and many agree. Where is that transparency on the website for people who have not had the opportunity to meet the folks running SF face to face?

[orionz06]

I think myself and many agree. Where is that transparency on the website for people who have not had the opportunity to meet the folks running SF face to face?


No clue. Met them at NRAAM and SHOT though. Disclaimer: I'm friends with their marketing guy, but nothing said here is different than their threads elsewhere.

[LittleLebowski]

They are. I've actually met the guy. I don't dig the overly patriotic shit either, but thankfully the optics look like optics, not bass boats covered in stickers. Mike Branson has done a pretty solid job at being open with who-what-why-how the company runs. I'd rather buy from someone who will tell you to your face all that than someone who tries to bury their sources.

Good enough for me.

[ranger]

Well the 5-25 MIL precision optic is sold out so I will wait.

[SwampfoxMike]

A couple of guys sent this thread to me and said I should register up. So, howdy everyone.

I've read the thread. I've seen these sorts of discussions before, in other places. I'll check the thread every once and awhile, and answer questions if anyone wants to ask.

[cornstalker]

A couple of guys sent this thread to me and said I should register up. So, howdy everyone.

I've read the thread. I've seen these sorts of discussions before, in other places. I'll check the thread every once and awhile, and answer questions if anyone wants to ask.

When do you estimate availability of the Sentinel?

[RJ]

A couple of guys sent this thread to me and said I should register up. So, howdy everyone.

I've read the thread. I've seen these sorts of discussions before, in other places. I'll check the thread every once and awhile, and answer questions if anyone wants to ask.

No specific question, just wanted to say props to you for engaging on the forum. I appreciate it.

[Lon]

A couple of guys sent this thread to me and said I should register up. So, howdy everyone.

I've read the thread. I've seen these sorts of discussions before, in other places. I'll check the thread every once and awhile, and answer questions if anyone wants to ask.

Thanks for showing up. I’m definitely interested in seeing how your optics hold up. Especially the RMSc footprint ones.

[psalms144.1]

SwampfoxMike - any idea on delivery date for the Sentinels? Also, any thoughts for future reticle options? 3 MOA is a bit smaller than I'd prefer on a micro-pistol; circle dot or 5-6 MOA is more my speed.

For the larger crew - any thoughts on "shake awake" manual adjustment versus always on auto-adjust for brightness?

[SwampfoxMike]

SwampfoxMike - any idea on delivery date for the Sentinels? Also, any thoughts for future reticle options? 3 MOA is a bit smaller than I'd prefer on a micro-pistol; circle dot or 5-6 MOA is more my speed.

For the larger crew - any thoughts on "shake awake" manual adjustment versus always on auto-adjust for brightness?

1. There are a few slots left where guys will get their Sentinels shipped out next Monday, July 26th. If you don't get your order in time for that, the next ship date is August 3rd or so. It's all hands on deck for the factory to make more of these red dots without sacrificing QC, so other stuff like our precision scope lines are just sitting idle while all resources go to trying to keep up with red dot demand. "Build a thousand of these immediately I don't care what it takes" is the classic QC trap that has sunk many companies trying to claw their way out of start up status-- we can't let that happen, even while we know that we have to start building more of these things, faster. Quality needs to go up, not down, as volume increases, and that's the major challenge facing us at this time.

2. The reason why they are 3 MOA is because the high efficiency emitters available to us only come in 3 MOA and red. The emitter is what dictates your battery life-- we can do green emitters, reticles etc. in the older Kingslayers that aren't duty rated or intended for concealed carry, but once you step up to trying to get your scope into people's holsters all day every day, you need a battery life of at least one year (unless your product is the ACRO in which case most users have buckets of batteries paid for by Uncle Sam anyway). I'm personally hoping for a breakthrough that would get us green dots that meet the battery life need, but if we get to the point where we can do a 6 MOA dot without cutting the battery life in half, I think we would definitely do that and add additional SKUs to Liberty / Justice / Sentinel etc.

Holosun has the best emitters out there, they are really an emitter company. They make a ton of LED emitters for industrial applications like consumer electronics, appliances, etc. You probably have Holosun emitters in your house or in your car that have nothing to do with guns at all. Holosun doesn't know jack squat about building other types of scopes-- I doubt you'll ever see them do a 3x prism or a LPVO. But a red dot is basically an emitter throwing light up against a curved piece of reflective glass, it's so dirt simple that they can master that pretty easily. So, for the forseeable future Holosun will probably stay at the top of the emitter tech game. It's too bad they are such jerks, LOL.

3. For me personally, this is the first time I've ever preferred an auto-brightness optic to a manual brightness optic. I have a couple of YouTube videos I've made and can write more about that if anyone cares, but it's still just one guy's opinion at the end of the day.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Thank you for having the balls to step in the middle of a discussion about your company on a publoc forum, Mike.

If you are interested in the opionions of potential consumers, I would love to see:
-A ring-type reticle, ala Holosun 407CO. Perhaps in a closed emitter optic and ideally with a green emitter.
-Optics that use the Acro or 509 mounting pattern, ideally that somehow fit a 2032 battery.
-Focus on durability, with respect to both drops and round count. The "Ironsides" on your website looks very nice, what if you coupled that with a sacrifical lens like on the ACRO?



By the way, your website does not work well on mobile for me (Android, Opera browser). I had to browse the site in Desktop mode on my phone, which worked great.

[Darth_Uno]

Well I just ordered a Trihawk, so I'll report back when I get it.

[SwampfoxMike]

Thank you for having the balls to step in the middle of a discussion about your company on a publoc forum, Mike.

If you are interested in the opionions of potential consumers, I would love to see:
-A ring-type reticle, ala Holosun 407CO. Perhaps in a closed emitter optic and ideally with a green emitter.
-Optics that use the Acro or 509 mounting pattern, ideally that somehow fit a 2032 battery.
-Focus on durability, with respect to both drops and round count. The "Ironsides" on your website looks very nice, what if you coupled that with a sacrifical lens like on the ACRO?

By the way, your website does not work well on mobile for me (Android, Opera browser). I had to browse the site in Desktop mode on my phone, which worked great.

1. The Kingslayer generation emitter can do a ring type reticle, but battery life will suck. The high efficiency emitters that give us improved battery life are only available in 3 MOA red, for now. As I wrote above I hope that changes. Maybe Holosun will sell us some of their 8 MOA ring emitters? (LOL no)

I'm not the worlds best pistol dot shooter but I'm very curious as to why people prefer the ring reticle. For the kind of pistol shooting I do, unless I'm sighting in from a bench rest, the reticle is never still enough for me to perceive the the target inside the "hole" in the ring. Maybe other shooters can hold more still than I do, but I basically never even see a crisp dot either, it's constantly wiggling and jiggling around, I think of it as a "paint brush". At the level of shooter I am, the game is to break my shot when the paint brush paints the part of the target that I want to hit within an acceptable margin of error. As distance increases the acceptable window gets smaller, so I have to shoot more slowly. Up close the acceptable window is larger, so I can shoot more quickly. Very very close I am basically point shooting with muscle memory and the sight picture becomes essentially a happy confirmation that everything else in this string of fire is going correctly. All of this is true whether I'm shooting drills in a class, shooting in competition, or (hopefully) shooting to save the day when ISIS attacks the local IHOP or whatever Walter Mitty CCW fantasy I want to make a scenario about. There's really no situation I can think of where, at my shooting level, I would hold the pistol still enough to perceive anything meaningful inside that ring, even taking shots at 50 yards (which I do practice). So for me the ring basically becomes a giant 8 MOA jiggly paintbrush and essentially I have all the disadvantages of an 8 MOA dot at that point. That's why I "don't get it" on this, but I am very much willing to listen to other shooters on what I'm missing out on.

2. We already have a huge emphasis on durability. The "Ironsides Shield" is basically a trap for the Aaron Cowans of the world who like to drop test stuff till it breaks, hit it with hammers, all that fun Demolition Ranch YouTube stuff. Ironsides Shield shifts the failure point of the optic to the screws-- if you smack the whole thing hard enough usually the screws shear right the heck off, and now you have to get your broken screw shafts drilled out of your pistol slide, but hey our optic still works fine so that's not our problem. Even without Ironsides, the latest gen of Liberty / Justice / Sentinel dots are already much tougher than the older Kingslayers-- part of that was moving from 6061 aluminum to 7075 aluminum, which costs us 40% more for raw materials and takes more machining time.

My philosophy on durability is simple--the product will speak for itself whether we want it to or not. If the scopes people buy today are still working on the same guns 2, 3, 4 years from now, those buyers will come back to us again and again, and tell their friends, and we will grow and succeed. If everything we make breaks after 3 months, then all the belly-slapping "bullshit Chinesium knock off crap" guys will be proven right, we will be out of business and I'll be looking for another job. That's reality-- there's no YouTube influencer I can buy who will fix that problem. (By the way none of the really big influencers are hawking us yet because I don't have the budget to get in the door with them. It's absolutely a pay to play game there, don't be bamboozled. The biggest guy we have right now is The Daily Shooter, who is exactly who he appears to be and who is not paid for his opinions, because I have no funding set aside to pay him with.) So durability is a huge priority if our company is to stand any chance at all, in my opinion.

3. The ACRO footprint optic ties into my point above about the screws shearing off. The screws really are the weak point on these things because we are asking them to do too much-- they must first exert clamping force in one direction to hold the optic firmly to the slide, and then we are asking the screws to ALSO deal with the violent back-and-forth motion of the slide rattling around. Any engineer worth his salt will tell you this is a huge problem. Never ask fasteners to cope with two force vectors at the same time. The ACRO footprint has a recoil lug built into it, so the screw comes in from the side and only has to exert side clamping force, it isn't responsible for bearing the optic's weight along the axis of slide movement. The ACRO footprint makes all the other footprints including the ones we are making scopes for now look antiquated and weak by comparison. So, are we developing a closed emitter "toaster" style optic with this kind of arrangement? Yes. But it's a long road with multiple prototype iterations and much testing and eval ahead.

4. Android Opera users are 1.6% of browser users in the USA. When it came time to configure our site to work with mobile functionality, we could not make it work for Opera AND for other browsers with much higher usage percentages. The choice was a no-brainer. Sorry.

[cornstalker]

I can't help but like this guy.

[RJ]

SwampfoxMike, I think you are on the right track, with the right priorities. Good luck with your business.

EDIT Also, just noticed you are now a Site Supporter. BZ.

When the time comes for me to consider an optic for my Sig P365XL, I will give your product a good look.

+1 on what TicTacticalTimmy said.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Thank you for the rapid and detailed response Mike!

I am right there with you regarding the superiority of the ACRO mounting system. Im also right there with you in understanding the engineering challenges. I feel Aimpoint themselves did not adequately grasp those challenges and as a result released a product with a subpar battery life, for most end users. Clearly whatever company can release an optic with that improved mounting system that also has great durability and battery life stands to make a lot of sales.

Regarding the ring/CO reticle, it has three potential advantages. Note that I do a fair bit of longer range shooting with my handguns. For someone who shoots handguns exclusively 25yds and in these are much less important. However, I look at the pistol red dot as something that potentially extends the effective range of a handgun, and I value that while also recognizing I will almost certainly never "need" to take a shot at that longer effective range.
I dont yet have a 407CO, so these are based on extrapolating my experiences with shooting just the ring vs the dot on my 507C:

1. Astigmatism: I have an astigmatism in my dominant eye, and so red dots appear starbursted. The ring in my 507C does not get starbursted, its just very slightly wavy, basically only noticable if I am focusing on the reticle itself. I dont like shooting with the 507 ring because it is too big for precise shots and it seems slightly less bright vs just the dot. My hope is a smaller ring will allow the same precision of a dot, while also "covering up" my astigmatism. 8moa seems perfect as the inside of the circle is right at the mechanical capabilities of my handgun. To reiterate, this is only really important for precision shots, such as a 12" plate at 75-150yds.

2. Bdc reticle: my hope is that I can sight the reticle in for a 50yd 0, and it will be right on target out to 75yds. At 100yds, I should be able to place the circle on a targets head to get a high chest shot, and at 125-150 place the reticle just above the target to get general torso shots. Using just a dot to shoot 100yds and especially beyond becomes a bunch of guesswork due to bullet drop, and my hope is such a reticle could make hits at those extended ranges more consistent and intuitive. Like the above point, definitely only relevant for the few handgun shooters that care about hitting stuff at 100+yds.

3. Mo' bigger = mo' betta: It seems to me a bigger dot is easier to acquire, particularly from awkward or less practiced positions/angles. Obviously having a rock solid index makes this irrelevant in theory, but in practice I want every advantage I can get. My hope is an 8MOA ring will present like an 8MOA dot, while maintaining the above 2 advantages a huge dot would lack. Also, I would think battery consumption would be much less than an 8MOA dot.

In addition to the above, there are a bunch of shooters with an astigmatism, and if people are buying based off a demo in a store, I would bet they are way more likely to put their money down on the one optic that looks clear and crisp.

[SwampfoxMike]

I think Aimpoint knew exactly what they were doing with ACRO development. If you talk to these guys at trade shows and such, all their emphasis is on deep pocket worldwide military and law enforcement sales. They want that press release that the US Marine Corps has just signed a new tender for the latest improved "CCO" for $3.4 gazillion dollars over the next 11 years. That's where they make their living. Oh yeah, and if a few Joe Civilians are crazy enough to blow $600 on one for themselves? Hah, we'll take their money too, whatever. That's how their priorities are.

At SHOT Show this year I was chatting away with a guy from Surefire and I said, "hey I have one of your weapon lights on my 870 back home. These Beretta 1301's are super nice, you should make a light for them." And the guy was like, LOL no, Surefire will never make another shotgun weapon light. Unless the weapon system is in more than 75% of military or law enforcement armories in the USA we don't even start R&D, and police departments are moving away from shotguns. Nobody cares about shotguns but civilians now.

So, that's the mindset of the heavy hitters. Their "customers" get batteries by the bucket load paid for by Uncle Sam and our tax dollars. Talk to some shooters who have come back from recent trips to Iraq and Afghanistan recently, buy 'em a steak dinner and let them tell you war stories. They swap batteries all the time "just in case" anyway.

So, I think when Aimpoint was doing R&D on ACRO, I think they knew exactly what their battery life was like, how could they not? Are we supposed to think they forgot to check it? They decided battery life was irrelevant, and if you care about long battery life the ACRO is not really for you anyway. They won't say that out loud but the product says it for them.

[mrozowjj]

1. The Kingslayer generation emitter can do a ring type reticle, but battery life will suck. The high efficiency emitters that give us improved battery life are only available in 3 MOA red, for now. As I wrote above I hope that changes. Maybe Holosun will sell us some of their 8 MOA ring emitters? (LOL no)

I'm not the worlds best pistol dot shooter but I'm very curious as to why people prefer the ring reticle. For the kind of pistol shooting I do, unless I'm sighting in from a bench rest, the reticle is never still enough for me to perceive the the target inside the "hole" in the ring. Maybe other shooters can hold more still than I do, but I basically never even see a crisp dot either, it's constantly wiggling and jiggling around, I think of it as a "paint brush". At the level of shooter I am, the game is to break my shot when the paint brush paints the part of the target that I want to hit within an acceptable margin of error. As distance increases the acceptable window gets smaller, so I have to shoot more slowly. Up close the acceptable window is larger, so I can shoot more quickly. Very very close I am basically point shooting with muscle memory and the sight picture becomes essentially a happy confirmation that everything else in this string of fire is going correctly. All of this is true whether I'm shooting drills in a class, shooting in competition, or (hopefully) shooting to save the day when ISIS attacks the local IHOP or whatever Walter Mitty CCW fantasy I want to make a scenario about. There's really no situation I can think of where, at my shooting level, I would hold the pistol still enough to perceive anything meaningful inside that ring, even taking shots at 50 yards (which I do practice). So for me the ring basically becomes a giant 8 MOA jiggly paintbrush and essentially I have all the disadvantages of an 8 MOA dot at that point. That's why I "don't get it" on this, but I am very much willing to listen to other shooters on what I'm missing out on.


I got into why I prefer it on another post in another thread if you are curious:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38369-HE508T-First-impressions-and-initial-range-review-with-comparison-to-RMR&p=964325&viewfull=1#post964325

To summarize, I have a mild astigmatism, smaller dots 2-4 MOA look like the star of Bethlehem to me; larger dots 6-8 MOA look crisper to me. Yes even with the giant starburst I see I can make the 2 MOA dots work in close on a pistol but it's not intuitive to my brain (It takes an extra 0.1 of a sec to process which when you are shooting 20-30 shots in a course of fire can add up) and further out is entirely useless so any precision others gain from the smaller dot goes out the window for me so on a rifle I have given up on red dots on anything I want to shoot "seriously."

Prior to the 8 MOA ring I was using a 6 MOA dot on a pistol and it worked well but if you were trying to shoot further out past 25 yards it was a bit more difficult. On a pistol I never really shoot past 25 yards so aces 6 MOA dots work perfectly. On a PCC though I sometimes like to shoot it at 100 yards and in that role the ring is like a cheat code because I can treat it like an giant dot in close and then when I want to shoot it at 100 yards I treat it like a peep sight and put my target inside the ring.

Until someone makes an etched reticle option that I can mount to a pistol slide I'm sticking with the big dots and/or 8 MOA for my pistols and PCCs.

[cornstalker]

1. There are a few slots left where guys will get their Sentinels shipped out next Monday, July 26th. If you don't get your order in time for that, the next ship date is August 3rd or so. It's all hands on deck for the factory to make more of these red dots without sacrificing QC, so other stuff like our precision scope lines are just sitting idle while all resources go to trying to keep up with red dot demand. "Build a thousand of these immediately I don't care what it takes" is the classic QC trap that has sunk many companies trying to claw their way out of start up status-- we can't let that happen, even while we know that we have to start building more of these things, faster. Quality needs to go up, not down, as volume increases, and that's the major challenge facing us at this time.


Any chance you could post a pic of the bottom of the Sentinel? Or maybe just tell me if it has two or four recesses for recoil bosses.

[SwampfoxMike]

Four recoil bosses, two in front and two in back.

[HeavyDuty]

SwampfoxMike, can you comment about the base height of the Sentinel? Is it low enough to use stock height Glock sights on milled 43, 43x and 48s along with the new slimline MOS guns?

[SwampfoxMike]

SwampfoxMike, can you comment about the base height of the Sentinel? Is it low enough to use stock height Glock sights on milled 43, 43x and 48s along with the new slimline MOS guns?

Base height is just under 7.5mm without the waterproofing plate which adds another half a millimetre or so when compressed under the optic, so think of it as just shy of 8mm tall back there. It will not be low enough to use stock height Glock sights. Here's a pic of one installed on a G48 with the slide milled directly for the footprint.

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-7if6rfp0r7/product_images/uploaded_images/sentinel-on-g48.jpg?t=1599591458&_ga=2.99557278.1434422230.1599580519-1502966710.1592936871

I'm a bit confused on the new MOS guns-- apparently they do not ship with any adapter plates, yet I cannot tell if the slide itself is just milled for the RMS/SMS Shield footprint as a direct mount (please Glock, please) or if they have gotten weird and it's a proprietary footprint and they are expecting people to order plates separately to mount up Shield vs. RMRcc or whatever. Hopefully someone we know gets one in their hands soon and answers that question for me. But, obviously with an additional MOS-type adapter plate on there the situation regarding co-witnessing would be worse, not better.

We took a look at the compromises made by Shield to create an optic that would co-witness with the factory irons, and decided that path was not for us. Frankly, we cannot make the rear any lower and still have a reasonable amount of elevation adjustment. We cannot make the rear any lower and still have a mechanism inside that holds zero through thousands of rounds fired. Whether RMSc / SMSc have succeeded in those areas despite making their rear area much lower is not for me to make claims about. You'll have to look around and see what people say about how well those optics hold zero over time, and how easy they are to sight in, and decide for yourself what you are willing to sacrifice in order to use standard height sights instead of taller sights.

[HeavyDuty]

Base height is just under 7.5mm without the waterproofing plate which adds another half a millimetre or so when compressed under the optic, so think of it as just shy of 8mm tall back there. It will not be low enough to use stock height Glock sights. Here's a pic of one installed on a G48 with the slide milled directly for the footprint.

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-7if6rfp0r7/product_images/uploaded_images/sentinel-on-g48.jpg?t=1599591458&_ga=2.99557278.1434422230.1599580519-1502966710.1592936871

I'm a bit confused on the new MOS guns-- apparently they do not ship with any adapter plates, yet I cannot tell if the slide itself is just milled for the RMS/SMS Shield footprint as a direct mount (please Glock, please) or if they have gotten weird and it's a proprietary footprint and they are expecting people to order plates separately to mount up Shield vs. RMRcc or whatever. Hopefully someone we know gets one in their hands soon and answers that question for me. But, obviously with an additional MOS-type adapter plate on there the situation regarding co-witnessing would be worse, not better.

We took a look at the compromises made by Shield to create an optic that would co-witness with the factory irons, and decided that path was not for us. Frankly, we cannot make the rear any lower and still have a reasonable amount of elevation adjustment. We cannot make the rear any lower and still have a mechanism inside that holds zero through thousands of rounds fired. Whether RMSc / SMSc have succeeded in those areas despite making their rear area much lower is not for me to make claims about. You'll have to look around and see what people say about how well those optics hold zero over time, and how easy they are to sight in, and decide for yourself what you are willing to sacrifice in order to use standard height sights instead of taller sights.

Thanks, Mike - I’m guessing I can get by with something lower than standard suppressor sights. My understanding of the new 43X/48 MOS is that they are direct milled for the RMSc footprint. How deep is anybody’s guess right now.

[HeavyDuty]

After seeing how CarlK‘s new 43X MOS worked out with a Sentinel and factory height XS Minimalist sights (or near enough to factory height,) I found an automatic Sentinel in stock at Rockey‘s webstore and committed to that path. SwampfoxMike, I’m looking forward to giving your stuff a try. The sight already shipped, but I’m probably still a ways off from picking up the new gun.

This is CarlK’s pistol: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?44271-Glock-43X-48-Optic-Ready-Slimline-models-with-rail&p=1112369&viewfull=1#post1112369

[stomridertx]

SwampfoxMike,
I apologize if this has been answered somewhere, but I didn't find it on the site and didn't want to read the now 60+ page thread on Arcfcom. What are the click adjustments on the Liberty and Justice red dots? Also, are they click adjustments or are they more just lining the tick marks?
I'm experiencing a Holosun warranty exchange process right now that is very low on communication on their part and very high on the expectation of faith on my part. My faith is tied up in my belief in God, so I'd prefer communication on warranty status of my life saving equipment. I'm getting the vibe from this thread and your website that Swampfox would stand behind their product and have my back a little better, so I'm about ready to try running the Liberty.

[SwampfoxMike]

SwampfoxMike,
I apologize if this has been answered somewhere, but I didn't find it on the site and didn't want to read the now 60+ page thread on Arcfcom. What are the click adjustments on the Liberty and Justice red dots? Also, are they click adjustments or are they more just lining the tick marks?
I'm experiencing a Holosun warranty exchange process right now that is very low on communication on their part and very high on the expectation of faith on my part. My faith is tied up in my belief in God, so I'd prefer communication on warranty status of my life saving equipment. I'm getting the vibe from this thread and your website that Swampfox would stand behind their product and have my back a little better, so I'm about ready to try running the Liberty.

I made the final decision not to put clicks in Liberty, Justice, or Sentinel, and I'll be honest about it. Our clicks sucked. They were mushy, you could barely feel them and you couldn't hear them at all. Worse, the click mechanism had the potential to make durability / reliability WORSE not better, which is counter intuitive, but true. The mechanism that did not depend on clicks to hold zero performed better. For me the choice was easy and nobody else really disagreed.

You can tell that putting clicks in optics this size is a challenge. Trijicon did put clicks in their $699 RMRcc, so if you're willing to throw enough money at R&D apparently it can be done. Even then it's 3 MOA per click which is one of the most coarse adjustments ever installed in a factory red dot presented to the public at any price. I'm not criticizing them-- I'm certainly not capable of shooting a 3 inch group with a pistol at 100 yards so I reckon 3 MOA per click is probably good enough to get dialed in, right? I only bring it up to show that even the biggest companies, with 100 times our resources at their disposal, are still challenged by trying to install that feature in an optic that's the size of your thumb.

[stomridertx]

I made the final decision not to put clicks in Liberty, Justice, or Sentinel, and I'll be honest about it. Our clicks sucked. They were mushy, you could barely feel them and you couldn't hear them at all. Worse, the click mechanism had the potential to make durability / reliability WORSE not better, which is counter intuitive, but true. The mechanism that did not depend on clicks to hold zero performed better. For me the choice was easy and nobody else really disagreed.

You can tell that putting clicks in optics this size is a challenge. Trijicon did put clicks in their $699 RMRcc, so if you're willing to throw enough money at R&D apparently it can be done. Even then it's 3 MOA per click which is one of the most coarse adjustments ever installed in a factory red dot presented to the public at any price. I'm not criticizing them-- I'm certainly not capable of shooting a 3 inch group with a pistol at 100 yards so I reckon 3 MOA per click is probably good enough to get dialed in, right? I only bring it up to show that even the biggest companies, with 100 times our resources at their disposal, are still challenged by trying to install that feature in an optic that's the size of your thumb.

Understood, the lack of clicks is not an instant "no" from me, I just want to understand the key points of the optic before I make a purchase decision. What does each mark on the dial represent? 1MOA?
Also, on your 50,000 round warranty, would that cover an accidental drop that cracked the glass? Would you mind giving a quick rundown on what your warranty process is like and typical turn around?

[SwampfoxMike]

Understood, the lack of clicks is not an instant "no" from me, I just want to understand the key points of the optic before I make a purchase decision. What does each mark on the dial represent? 1MOA?
Also, on your 50,000 round warranty, would that cover an accidental drop that cracked the glass? Would you mind giving a quick rundown on what your warranty process is like and typical turn around?

Gonna keep it real with you again. The individual tick marks are 1 MOA, but they are tiny. They are significantly smaller than the actual slot in the adjustment screw where your screwdriver goes. It's going to be incredibly difficult to turn that screw just 1 or 2 MOA. Longer tick marks that are easier to see are placed at 5 MOA intervals. Lets math!

Most of us are zeroing at 10 yards with a confirmation at 25 yards. Lets say you are a very accurate pistol shooter and you want to actually zero at 25. In that case, 1 MOA is 1.024" divided by 4 so .256 of one inch-- a quarter inch per small tick. That's probably too small to really be useful. If we ignore the small ticks and go with the large 5 MOA ticks, that adjusts us about 1.25" per large tick at 25 yards. That seems much more reasonable real world. For sight in then, I would math it out similarly depending on what distance you are sighting in at and think of those 5 MOA ticks as your basic unit of measure, then when you get really close, think of it in terms of a "smidge"... adjust slowly and find a happy medium between two of the 5 MOA ticks where you are dead on. I think using the smallest ticks is probably an exercise in frustration in the real world.

Regarding the warranty, yes it covers accidental drops and we've done that in the past. The 50,000 round guarantee is, to be honest, a bit of marketing fluff-- we don't actually ask anyone if they've fired 50k rounds through their gun. Honestly the first guy to call us and say "hey, your product broke at 62,325 rounds fired, can you help?" is probably going to get a free hat and be featured on our Instagram or something. LOL. But "lifetime warranty" doesn't really register in people's minds anymore, it goes in one ear and out the other. We wanted to basically dare the customer and say hey, go out and shoot, go freakin' train with this thing and build your skill set and prove to yourself whether this new brand sucks or not. If you buy a budget LPVO or a red dot and it sits in the closet for 6 months you haven't actually learned anything about whether we built you a good product. So, that's why our guarantee is worded to sort of dare the customer to get out of the house and go shoot.

The only thing the warranty doesn't cover is intentional abuse. If you went full Aaron Cowan and dropped it five times in a row onto bricks just to see what would happen, we're going to have a different conversation with you. But we aren't running an insurance company--we don't constantly look for ways to crawfish out of the deal and screw over guys who have already had a bad experience with our product. That's no way to build the reputation of a new brand name.

If something goes wrong, you email support@swampfoxoptics.com, we have multiple guys with access to that customer service email, it'll be answered usually within the day. Send us back the broken product and any packaging you still have, and you'll have to foot the bill for that shipping most of the time. Guys gripe about that but we did it so the customer will have at least some skin in the game-- it helps us weed out the scammers if you have to pay the $10 or whatever to send it back to us. Once we get the product back from you, we'll ship out a replacement. The policy says we can opt to repair or replace but we don't really have a repair department built yet (again, keepin' it real here) so it'll be a new in box optic headed back you, this time with the shipping on us. Normally total turnaround time including shipping time is a week to a week and a half. Recently we have been sold out and backordered and that has stretched things out in terms of turnaround time for a couple of guys. Fortunately they weren't jerks about it, and we've learned to hold back a handful of boxes from future shipments for potential returns.

Maybe some of what I wrote above isn't exactly what you wanted to hear but I hope you'll appreciate honesty from the start. I wrote it knowing that a lot more people than you might read it-- might as well tell it like it is from the beginning and hope they respect that.

[stomridertx]

Gonna keep it real with you again. The individual tick marks are 1 MOA, but they are tiny. They are significantly smaller than the actual slot in the adjustment screw where your screwdriver goes. It's going to be incredibly difficult to turn that screw just 1 or 2 MOA. Longer tick marks that are easier to see are placed at 5 MOA intervals. Lets math!

Most of us are zeroing at 10 yards with a confirmation at 25 yards. Lets say you are a very accurate pistol shooter and you want to actually zero at 25. In that case, 1 MOA is 1.024" divided by 4 so .256 of one inch-- a quarter inch per small tick. That's probably too small to really be useful. If we ignore the small ticks and go with the large 5 MOA ticks, that adjusts us about 1.25" per large tick at 25 yards. That seems much more reasonable real world. For sight in then, I would math it out similarly depending on what distance you are sighting in at and think of those 5 MOA ticks as your basic unit of measure, then when you get really close, think of it in terms of a "smidge"... adjust slowly and find a happy medium between two of the 5 MOA ticks where you are dead on. I think using the smallest ticks is probably an exercise in frustration in the real world.

Regarding the warranty, yes it covers accidental drops and we've done that in the past. The 50,000 round guarantee is, to be honest, a bit of marketing fluff-- we don't actually ask anyone if they've fired 50k rounds through their gun. Honestly the first guy to call us and say "hey, your product broke at 62,325 rounds fired, can you help?" is probably going to get a free hat and be featured on our Instagram or something. LOL. But "lifetime warranty" doesn't really register in people's minds anymore, it goes in one ear and out the other. We wanted to basically dare the customer and say hey, go out and shoot, go freakin' train with this thing and build your skill set and prove to yourself whether this new brand sucks or not. If you buy a budget LPVO or a red dot and it sits in the closet for 6 months you haven't actually learned anything about whether we built you a good product. So, that's why our guarantee is worded to sort of dare the customer to get out of the house and go shoot.

The only thing the warranty doesn't cover is intentional abuse. If you went full Aaron Cowan and dropped it five times in a row onto bricks just to see what would happen, we're going to have a different conversation with you. But we aren't running an insurance company--we don't constantly look for ways to crawfish out of the deal and screw over guys who have already had a bad experience with our product. That's no way to build the reputation of a new brand name.

If something goes wrong, you email support@swampfoxoptics.com, we have multiple guys with access to that customer service email, it'll be answered usually within the day. Send us back the broken product and any packaging you still have, and you'll have to foot the bill for that shipping most of the time. Guys gripe about that but we did it so the customer will have at least some skin in the game-- it helps us weed out the scammers if you have to pay the $10 or whatever to send it back to us. Once we get the product back from you, we'll ship out a replacement. The policy says we can opt to repair or replace but we don't really have a repair department built yet (again, keepin' it real here) so it'll be a new in box optic headed back you, this time with the shipping on us. Normally total turnaround time including shipping time is a week to a week and a half. Recently we have been sold out and backordered and that has stretched things out in terms of turnaround time for a couple of guys. Fortunately they weren't jerks about it, and we've learned to hold back a handful of boxes from future shipments for potential returns.

Maybe some of what I wrote above isn't exactly what you wanted to hear but I hope you'll appreciate honesty from the start. I wrote it knowing that a lot more people than you might read it-- might as well tell it like it is from the beginning and hope they respect that.

Thanks, it's very helpful in the decision making process. The adjustments are reasonable for a pistol optic and don't discourage me at all. I make 0.5mm pencil lines on rear iron sights to drift them enough to move bullet impact 1 or 2 inches left or right at 25 yards, so courser adjustments can actually be a good thing at closer distance. It was mainly an RFI so if I order one I know exactly what I'm getting and expectations are in check.
Thanks also for the warranty info, that sounds reasonable as well. I mainly just want to feel like a company will be easy to deal with and communicate, and have my back on my equipment I run every day. I don't spike optics on concrete and used to think Aaron Cowan's test was extreme, until Murphy attacked me at the range and caused the same thing to happen to my optic on accident. I was sighting in a Holosun 407C on MOS Glock 19 at the range from a bench at 25 yards. I had it on a sandbag rest pretty solidly (I thought), went to look through my spotting scope, and heard the gun hit the concrete floor. The optic hit the ground first full on Sage Dynamics style, and the glass de-laminated and cracked at the top. The experience told me I need 2 optics for any carry gun so that I'm not going without like I am now during the warranty process. From this info, that second optic may be a Liberty and it may go into primary duty with the Holosun 407c I hope like hell I eventually get back going to backup duty.

[SwampfoxMike]

Yeah I remember the first drop that we ever did a RMA on. Dude had one on a competition gun and was running a stage that required you to shoot steel with primary hand only, then switch hands and shoot left hand only after moving from point A to point B. He tried to do the hand switch while on the run and sort of flung the gun sideways, earning a DQ for the day as everyone cringed and dove for cover. Landed on concrete, like a cinder block material. Cracked glass, boom done. As the kids would say, YEET! Anyway, he got a new optic. The good news is, our return rates are really small, small enough that I can actually remember and recount individual stories like this on why guys had to send scopes back to us.

It was one of our first generation pistol dots, the Kingslayer which is made of 6061. The new ones are 7075 and will all have the optional "Ironsides" stainless steel add-on available for them to help out with "whoops" situations like that. We came a long way in just one year between the Kingslayer and the newer generation of dots.

[BillSWPA]

Yeah I remember the first drop that we ever did a RMA on. Dude had one on a competition gun and was running a stage that required you to shoot steel with primary hand only, then switch hands and shoot left hand only after moving from point A to point B. He tried to do the hand switch while on the run and sort of flung the gun sideways, earning a DQ for the day as everyone cringed and dove for cover. Landed on concrete, like a cinder block material. Cracked glass, boom done. As the kids would say, YEET! Anyway, he got a new optic. The good news is, our return rates are really small, small enough that I can actually remember and recount individual stories like this on why guys had to send scopes back to us.

It was one of our first generation pistol dots, the Kingslayer which is made of 6061. The new ones are 7075 and will all have the optional "Ironsides" stainless steel add-on available for them to help out with "whoops" situations like that. We came a long way in just one year between the Kingslayer and the newer generation of dots.

I have not yet started using pistol mounted optics, but am looking to start at some point soon. Your participation here as well as your openness and honesty about your products definitely gives me a favorable impression of your company and products.

[CarlK]

Some pics for you

[CWE]

CarlK

Thanks for those pics! It looks like those XS Sights work well through the optic, correct? Could you measure the front sight and rear sight heights? Thanks!

Also, a bit unrelated, has anyone ran a green fiber optic front sight with an RDS? Thinking of going this route. I really like the green vis laser and red dot combo on my 300BLK HD gun.

[CarlK]

CarlK

Thanks for those pics! It looks like those XS Sights work well through the optic, correct? Could you measure the front sight and rear sight heights? Thanks!

Also, a bit unrelated, has anyone ran a green fiber optic front sight with an RDS? Thinking of going this route. I really like the green vis laser and red dot combo on my 300BLK HD gun.

The Minimalist sights give a great lower-third sight pic through the Sentinel optic as seen in my bottom pic above. I unfortunately am unable to provide the sight measurements.

[JoeSixPack]

Like HeavyDuty I was inspired by CarlK 's setup and ordered an auto Sentinel from Rockeys and a set of the Minimalists. Delivery was speedy on both. My first impression is that the Sentinel is pretty bright in daylight and dims nicely when the sensor is covered. It's definitely compact, but also efficient. I don't feel cheated in FOV.

I could be a little off here and there, but with my calipers, the XS front blade measures 0.215 high x 0.145 wide. The rear is a little tricky due to angles, but I get 0.295 in total height. The rear blade itself is 0.205 tall but I haven't installed it or measured the dovetail depth to know how much of a gap there is with the top of the slide. The notch is pretty wide at 0.175 and its 0.150 deep leaving 0.055 of blade showing below the notch. The front dot is nice and big and bright.

[CarlK]

SwampfoxMike,

I did find the missing screws and can confirm that the M4x0.7 10.1mm length works perfectly in mounting the Sentinel to the G43X MOS.

[HeavyDuty]

SwampfoxMike,

I did find the missing screws and can confirm that the M4x0.7 10.1mm length works perfectly in mounting the Sentinel to the G43X MOS.

I hope your foot heals quickly.

[CarlK]

I hope your foot heals quickly.


Haha! The vacuum cleaner found it.

[Darth_Uno]

I'm so impressed with the Trihawk I ordered a Blade and Sentinel.

As far as the Trihawk goes, I was limited to 100 yds but at the same time that's about as far as I can ever shoot anyway. Razor sharp reticle, and the shake-n-wake seems to work just fine - this is my first optic with that feature, I admit I was a bit leery. Optic held zero...with some basic and preventable foresight/prep. The mounting screws did work loose initially on my first range trip, but not after I put blue loctite on them. Not an issue and it was even something I considered beforehand, so just something to be aware of. With that corrected, I have had and foresee no issues with normal (by PF standards, fairly heavy by most others) use.

3x has its own pros and con vs 1x prisms or "regular" dots, and I've stated before and even recently that I see no real advantages to a 1x prism vs a blurry dot. But I've changed my mind. While testing will tell the whole story, I've come to believe a sharp reticle may be a substantial improvement over a blurry dot at 50+ yds. After familiarization I'll be running timed drills with an accuracy penalty to see which suits me best.

Regarding the Trihawk, overall I expected it to be "ok" and live on a range gun but it's overperformed. I'm quite impressed. There's a bit of a weight penalty but I believe it would do quite well on an HD or hunting gun. I don't hunt myself (got enough expensive hobbies already) but my brother said it'd do well on a deer gun.

[HeavyDuty]

SwampfoxMike,

I did find the missing screws and can confirm that the M4x0.7 10.1mm length works perfectly in mounting the Sentinel to the G43X MOS.

Hmmm. When I try the 10.1mm long M4 screws on my 43X MOS, I get severe extractor plunger interference. And the 7.5mm ones only engage a thread or so. SwampfoxMike, do you have other screws available for the 43X MOS or do I need to chop one?

Awful pic:

62133

Edit - aha, it looks like Swampfox may have changed to a slightly longer short screw - there’s a knowledgebase post mentioning a 8.6mm screw on the right side. I’ll contact them directly.

[SwampfoxMike]

Hmmm. When I try the 10.1mm long M4 screws on my 43X MOS, I get severe extractor plunger interference. And the 7.5mm ones only engage a thread or so. SwampfoxMike, do you have other screws available for the 43X MOS or do I need to chop one?

Awful pic:

62133

Edit - aha, it looks like Swampfox may have changed to a slightly longer short screw - there’s a knowledgebase post mentioning a 8.6mm screw on the right side. I’ll contact them directly.

We do have 8.6mm if you want to email support@swampfoxoptics.com and see if the boys will send you a set. Alternately you can go High Roller and just buy our Ultimate Red Dot Screw Pack which is $20 and ships for free and has a PILE of screws in it. One of these sumbitches is sure to work properly!

https://www.swampfoxoptics.com/ultimate-red-dot-screw-pack

[HeavyDuty]

We do have 8.6mm if you want to email support@swampfoxoptics.com and see if the boys will send you a set. Alternately you can go High Roller and just buy our Ultimate Red Dot Screw Pack which is $20 and ships for free and has a PILE of screws in it. One of these sumbitches is sure to work properly!

https://www.swampfoxoptics.com/ultimate-red-dot-screw-pack

I really don’t need the extra screws, John at support is on it already. Thanks!

[HeavyDuty]

Once the longer screws and new holster are here, I’m looking forward to proving this configuration. I think my aging eyes will appreciate the Sentinel.

62157

[HeavyDuty]

The longer screws arrived while I was gone and mounted right up - a new 8.6mm on the extractor side, and a 10.1mm on the other. Now, if I could find a sugar momma to buy me a case of 9mm to sight in and prove the new gun before it enters service - I can be a kept man, and I like older women, so...

[awp_101]

Now, if I could find a sugar momma to buy me a case of 9mm to sight in and prove the new gun before it enters service - I can be a kept man, and I like older women, so...

Careful or you’ll end up on the wrong side of a sportsman’s double...
63080

[HeavyDuty]

Careful or you’ll end up on the wrong side of a sportsman’s double...
63080

I’d consider it for Lawman 124... not for WWB.

[RevolverRob]

I'm so impressed with the Trihawk I ordered a Blade and Sentinel.

As far as the Trihawk goes, I was limited to 100 yds but at the same time that's about as far as I can ever shoot anyway. Razor sharp reticle, and the shake-n-wake seems to work just fine - this is my first optic with that feature, I admit I was a bit leery. Optic held zero...with some basic and preventable foresight/prep. The mounting screws did work loose initially on my first range trip, but not after I put blue loctite on them. Not an issue and it was even something I considered beforehand, so just something to be aware of. With that corrected, I have had and foresee no issues with normal (by PF standards, fairly heavy by most others) use.

3x has its own pros and con vs 1x prisms or "regular" dots, and I've stated before and even recently that I see no real advantages to a 1x prism vs a blurry dot. But I've changed my mind. While testing will tell the whole story, I've come to believe a sharp reticle may be a substantial improvement over a blurry dot at 50+ yds. After familiarization I'll be running timed drills with an accuracy penalty to see which suits me best.

Regarding the Trihawk, overall I expected it to be "ok" and live on a range gun but it's overperformed. I'm quite impressed. There's a bit of a weight penalty but I believe it would do quite well on an HD or hunting gun. I don't hunt myself (got enough expensive hobbies already) but my brother said it'd do well on a deer gun.

Can we get an update on your Blade? My 9mm AR needs a new optic.

I'm definitely interested in the 1-4x24 Tomahawk for mounting on my 336. An LPV is about perfect for a lever gun with a limited (<200y) range.

[Darth_Uno]

Can we get an update on your Blade? My 9mm AR needs a new optic.

I'm definitely interested in the 1-4x24 Tomahawk for mounting on my 336. An LPV is about perfect for a lever gun with a limited (<200y) range.

Oh, well, since you asked. There's a couple things I noticed.

If you're used to red dots, the Blade is not a light optic as far as weight (obviously, it's a prism). But after years of seeing a distorted blob, that sharp reticle on 1x is something else. The reticle is as sharp as the Trihawk, and held zero over a couple hundred rounds of normal range use. Sample of one and all, but it certainly did everything I'd need it to do.

The glass on the Trihawk (and my MRO, and H2, and Pro) seems to be "brighter", for lack of a better word, than the Blade. Indoors (my basement) the Blade has a noticeably darker tint. This is not really noticeable at all outdoors as far as I can tell. And it's not a problem, and doesn't seem to affect overall clarity. Just looks a bit darker indoors, like really weak sunglasses. I can ignore that for the price.

The weight is what it is, the tint may either be one-off or may be unavoidable, but I do have to say this punches outside its weight class.

[ffhounddog]

Why did you go with a 1632 vice a 2032? I am awash in 2032s and That is what I use in my LPVO and my T1. Do you have a optic that takes a 2032 that I can put on a RMRed Glock 19 MOS or G45 with RMR footprint?

[skandar]

SwampfoxMike I like the idea of the Blade reticle with "drop" compensation for CQB. Being retired and not a hunter, I don't see any valid engagement (other than recreation) where I'd have a justifiable shot over 200 yds (if even that).

Question just out of curiosity about the reticle though.

Why have the 5yd mark at the bottom and the 50/200 centered? For a CQB focused reticle, wouldn't it be faster to put the 5 yd in the center and have the compensation move up? If I've got a 5 yd target I think I'm going to center and shoot, whereas as the distance moves out I probably have a little more time to adjust to the right mark.

I'm not aware of all the science behind it, so apologies if this is a stupid question.

[BehindBlueI's]

SwampfoxMike I like the idea of the Blade reticle with "drop" compensation for CQB. Being retired and not a hunter, I don't see any valid engagement (other than recreation) where I'd have a justifiable shot over 200 yds (if even that).

Question just out of curiosity about the reticle though.

Why have the 5yd mark at the bottom and the 50/200 centered? For a CQB focused reticle, wouldn't it be faster to put the 5 yd in the center and have the compensation move up? If I've got a 5 yd target I think I'm going to center and shoot, whereas as the distance moves out I probably have a little more time to adjust to the right mark.

I'm not aware of all the science behind it, so apologies if this is a stupid question.

I'm nobody, but having the drop aiming point below the center lines it up with how I'm currently trained for patrol rifle use. The dot is centered, then if you have a need for a head shot up close you raise the muzzle to compensate, meaning you are now below the dot in your reticle. This model would give you a new reference point instead of guessing if you only have one dot, sort of like the eotech reticle has more landmarks. For a "surprise" shot, you're going to be aiming center mass anyway and the difference between POI and POA is not so great as to mess that up if you just use the dot (or center dot, in this case).

It'd be more of a bother to transition to the non-center dot for any other shot, and the difference between POI vs POA if you choose the wrong dot is, of course, more and more as distance gets longer.

[stomridertx]

I just swapped out a Holosun 507C with a Swampfox Liberty + Ironsides shield. Initial impressions are great. I'm a dot only fan so I like the 3MOA dot, and I feel the glass doesn't have the slightly annoying magnifying effect the RMR and Holosun have. I'm surprised how much that Ironsides gives me warm fuzzies after having cracked glass from a drop before. It does make the optic sit a tad higher, barely encroaching into the iron sight picture of the Ameriglo 3XL sights. The irons are still useable this way so I won't be buying taller ones. The adjustments don't bother me and I find the torx battery compartment more user friendly than the Holosun side tray with tiny ass slot screws. At this point between my wife and I we also have an Arrowhead 1-6 and Blade, so Swampfox has invaded my household 3 optics deep and I'm really happy with them. Forgive the yellow 3d printed barrel in the pics, I use it for dry fire.

64000
64001

[Kirk]

Just ordered a Justice to try out in Carry Optics. At $200ish with a DPP sized window I figured it was worth a shot. I'll post photos when I get it set up and after I test it out. Might run it all next year in Steel Challenge

[ranger]

Just ordered a Justice to try out in Carry Optics. At $200ish with a DPP sized window I figured it was worth a shot. I'll post photos when I get it set up and after I test it out. Might run it all next year in Steel Challenge

I got a BF deal on a Justice and put it on a M&P 2.0 CORE FS 9. So far so good. Not many rounds yet but first impression positive.

[jtcarm]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion

I like the name(s). Despite all the patriotic lingo, it's all made in China.

If you haven’t seen “The Patriot”, check it out.

Mel Gibsons character is based on Marion.

[backtrail540]

Finally got hands on a swampfox optic today while helping a friend setup his 43x mos. A sentinel and xs minimalist sights were installed and ran for a quick 100 rounds in the snow.

As far as initial impressions go, the swampfox seemed competitive for the market and price point. Round and clear dot for my vision corrected eyes, adequate window size, functional controls. Easy to install and easy zero. I'll be giving them a shot the next time i need a dot. As long as it holds up, it looks like a solid setup in the category, though he's a low round count casual shooter so i don't think it will get rode very hard.

Hits to a tacstrike 1/4 scale at 25 were an easy day going for sub 2 under a winter coat. Certainly a handy setup for someone interested in that size category and the wampfix seemed to make a nice pair with the gun.

[kjr_29]

Picked up a Liberty for my first toe dip into red dots. Local company, so far, so good.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Kirk]

Threw my Swampfox Justice w/iron sides on my Canik TP9SFX and really like the window size. Time will tell how it holds up, but I plan to run it throughout 2021.

My only complaint: I think the marketing is incredibly cheesy and I took a sharpie to the logos on the dot.

[Lon]

Ordered a Justice for my Glock 44 with my Christmas cash. Curious to see how it holds up.

[Lon]

65529

[Det1397]

Right after Thanksgiving I ordered directly from SwampFox a Sentinel Auto bundle and opted to send my early production G43X (silver slide) off to Battle Werx for direct milling (Sentinel footprint is the same as the Shield RMSc) and refinishing.
I was in no rush and anticipated a wait due to the holidays and the USPS delays (FUNNY HOW ALL OF THE MAIL IN BALLOTS WERE SENT AND DELIVERED WITHOUT DELAY!!!!).
I received the Sentinel in early December and the other day the slide. I've been so far unable to shoot the pistol, but the milling and refinish from Battle Werx is outstanding and the fit for the Sentinel is perfect. The width of the optic is almost exact to the width of the slide, meaning really no overhang, and the optic fit the milling cut exactly.
The field of view is not to big-not too small. The Ameriglo Bold sights kinda sorta co-witness to the lower 1/3, not a deal breaker for me. I'm liking the compact package and the pistol fits perfectly in both my Tenicor ARX and VELO4.
More to come....

[Bart Carter]

...opted to send my early production ... slide... off to Battle Werx for direct milling...

... the milling ... from Battle Werx is outstanding and the fit for the Sentinel is perfect....

About the milling, did they cut for posts and did they mill straight across or to the curvature of the sight? A picture is worth a thousand words.

Thanks

[Det1397]

About the milling, did they cut for posts and did they mill straight across or to the curvature of the sight? A picture is worth a thousand words.

Thanks

Affirmative on the posts.
And, although my pictures aren’t the very best, the milling mirror images the contours of the optic, front edge and rear edge, with no gaps. As close a fit as could be possible...

[Lex Luthier]

Affirmative on the posts.
And, although my pictures aren’t the very best, the milling mirror images the contours of the optic, front edge and rear edge, with no gaps. As close a fit as could be possible...

That is some very nice work.

[Bart Carter]

Well, for $100, that is certainly the way I would go. I wouldn't even mill my own anymore.

Now if they only did Walthers...

[RancidSumo]

Anyone using an aftermarket MOS plate for the RMR footprint models? I've recently acquired a spare MOS slide and I'd like to set it up as a backup with one of these, but I don't like the factory MOS plates and I'm concerned these won't fit on a FCD plate.

[ranger]

If you qualify for Military or Law Enforcement discount with Swampfox, I suggest you register. They run some amazing deals for MIL-LE sometimes on short notice and short duration. I just got a very nice opportunity to buy heavily discounted RDS. I have a couple of 22 pistols and one gamer AR9 that I wanted RDS and perfect timing for a "deal". None of these will be carried into combat etc. so I am willing to give Swampfox a chance. My other RDS from SF is doing ok so far on a M&P Core Gen 2 with low round count right now.

[skandar]

If you qualify for Military or Law Enforcement discount with Swampfox, I suggest you register. They run some amazing deals for MIL-LE sometimes on short notice and short duration. I just got a very nice opportunity to buy heavily discounted RDS. I have a couple of 22 pistols and one gamer AR9 that I wanted RDS and perfect timing for a "deal". None of these will be carried into combat etc. so I am willing to give Swampfox a chance. My other RDS from SF is doing ok so far on a M&P Core Gen 2 with low round count right now.

Completely agree.

I just received a 1-6 Arrowhead and hostile engagement rings. I'm not going into combat either and wanted to give Swampfox an opportunity, and to try the LVPO in general. Price with the discount was extremely reasonable.

I haven't shot it yet but build quality seems very good, finish is excellent, and the glass / reticle are clear and sharp (at least to my inexperienced eye). Eye relief and eye box seem completely useable for real world application after a little practice.

If battery life and durability prove out I'm a convert.

[JWH]

As a datapoint on battery life, I purchased one of the mid-September justices based on recommendations in this thread. I started carrying it early November. The included Malak branded battery was dead this past Friday afternoon. A new energizer was installed yesterday evening and everything looks good. The large thin o-ring was pinched during the initial install and came apart when I removed the battery door. I am impressed with how securely the battery is retained within the optic. Carry was 6-8 hrs/day at full brightness for the first month, then 3 clicks down after that.

I purchased a second justice on new-years and plan to mount it on the carry handle of my AR using the trijicon mount.

[RJ]

Any other recent experiences on how these are holding up?

[Whirlwind06]

I put the Kingslayer on my Glock 44 with an aftermarket slide cut for the RMR footprint.
Only have 150 though it but so far so good. I went with the Kingslayer because the sight picture is similar to the Holosun 507C that I have on my G34 MOS.

[CCT125US]

I've got a Sentinal M, inbound for my Smith .22c. Plan to run that in upcoming steel matches.

[Crusader8207]

Sentinal M inbound too for my 365 to replace the RomeoZero. Should be here next week.

[ranger]

Just got some Kingslayers in with the Red Circle Dot. Will put one on a S&W 41 that has a Weaver rail on top. Debating on using the second on AR9 or MPX.

[cornstalker]

Just got back from the first range session with the Sentinel M on a FrankenGlock. Seemed to work well enough so far, but I only shot 55 rounds with it. The blue hue and slight magnification seem to be on par with my HE508T, but there seems to be a tiny bit more distortion to my eye in the Sentinel. I had a little trouble with my sight picture shooting X rings at 12 yards. Not sure what the deal was, but between the optic and my glasses I struggled. Will have to work with it a bit to get that sorted out.

I also lost the little adjustment wrench the first time I got the optic out of the box. (The "L" shaped flathead.)I took an eyeglass screwdriver along to adjust for zero. It appears to me that there will be no improvising a tool for adjustment in the field. You either have a tiny flathead screwdriver or you are not adjusting it.

I inadvertently pressed the down button a number of times when racking the slide. Wish I could lock the buttons out. Guessing that type of feature can't be packed into this tiny vessel. Understandably so.


The slide on the FrankenGlock has 6-32 threads for the optic mount. The Sentinel does not have enough clearance for the width of the head on a standard machine screw so I had to fit the screws by reducing the diameter on the head of 6-32 x 3/8" machine screws. No protrusion in the extractor plunger channel. Torqued them to 15 inch-pounds with blue Loctite.

66864

[cornstalker]

My G43x slide has a .160" deep pocket. This is what the Sentinel looks like with 10-8 standard low profile sight with a .140" notch. (.250" tall) The front is a Dawson .250" x .105".

67193

Dot on and cowitnessed.

67194

Normal sight picture when shooting.

67195

Side profile.

67196

So far, I really like this little optic.

[backtrail540]

p/CLkLJwmFZ0V

Screenshot for the old folks

67892

[HCM]

I put the Kingslayer on my Glock 44 with an aftermarket slide cut for the RMR footprint.
Only have 150 though it but so far so good. I went with the Kingslayer because the sight picture is similar to the Holosun 507C that I have on my G34 MOS.

Could you advise who did the slide cut ?

Aren’t the G44 slides mostly polymer?

[HeavyDuty]

p/CLkLJwmFZ0V

Screenshot for the old folks

67892

An ACRO style closed emitter sight?

[Tackleberry40sw]

I was aware of its development last July but, Mike swore me to secrecy. I'm really glad it has come to fruition. It will another contender on the closed emitter pistol red dot market besides the ACRO and 509T.

[HCM]

I was aware of its development last July but, Mike swore me to secrecy. I'm really glad it has come to fruition. It will another contender on the closed emitter pistol red dot market besides the ACRO and 509T.

If the Swampfox products prove durable.

Initial impressions of swampfox RDS are favorable but I haven’t seen any real durability testing or long term hard use testing on these.

[Tackleberry40sw]

If the Swampfox products prove durable.

Initial impressions of swampfox RDS are favorable but I haven’t seen any real durability testing or long term hard use testing on these.

I only have 3 Blade 1X prism optics on AR's. I have a friend who has a Liberty with Ironsides protector on a G34.5 MOS. It's not his main carry pistol and we have not given it the "Aaron Cowan" treatment. I hope they are durable and competitive with the others on the market.

[Whirlwind06]

Could you advise who did the slide cut ?

Aren’t the G44 slides mostly polymer?

The slide is from Nelson precision they make an aluminum aftermarket slide. It works well with high velocity ammo. On Glock talk there is some posts about a new Gen slide from Nelson that will be lighter so better / more ammo choices.

[HCM]

The slide is from Nelson precision they make an aluminum aftermarket slide. It works well with high velocity ammo. On Glock talk there is some posts about a new Gen slide from Nelson that will be lighter so better / more ammo choices.

I’m familiar with their replacement slide.

Thanks

[HCM]

I only have 3 Blade 1X prism optics on AR's. I have a friend who has a Liberty with Ironsides protector on a G34.5 MOS. It's not his main carry pistol and we have not given it the "Aaron Cowan" treatment. I hope they are durable and competitive with the others on the market.

The fact that they have a protector shield available doesn’t necessarily mean they are not durable but it does mean the shield is gonna be mandatory for anything but range use.

[cornstalker]

An ACRO style closed emitter sight?

Watched the live unveil of the Kraken on YouTube for a short spell. The closed emitter optic that was on the Glocks in the foreground appeared huge to me. Admittedly, I only watched about two minutes.

[HeavyDuty]

I don’t have the patience to watch video stuff like this, I’m a reader. I’ll wait for the written recaps.

[BehindBlueI's]

I don’t have the patience to watch video stuff like this, I’m a reader. I’ll wait for the written recaps.

Same. I clicked the link in my email, saw it was half an hour, closed it.

[LHS]

The first couple minutes are worth it if only to hear Mike drop an epic fuck you to Youtube censors.


https://youtu.be/Cd4OgJ_kIeU?t=38

[backtrail540]

68053

Plates for rmr footprint (flat cut or posts) at launch, also making their own plates for various available guns (320, canik, mos etc..)

1 year estimated battery life with normal usage

Side mounted battery

I'm certain i missed some points but I'm just watching with coffee.

Also mentioned their existing dots will be available in green later on this year.

[RJ]

68053




Thanks. What is the optic and pistol in the picture? And is it just me, but why does it look so HUGE?

[backtrail540]

Thanks. What is the optic and pistol in the picture? And is it just me, but why does it look so HUGE?

Looks to be a glock done up by Taran Tactical, as I believe they do the combat master package. It sits high due to using an adapter plate vs direct mounting so it can mount to current footprints. Overall size definitely appears chunky and they touch on that in the video. No direct comparison on size though, just that the housing isn't overly noticeable while shooting. Pending price, durability, future mounting options, and actual size in person...I don't see any advantage to this over current enclosed emitter designs and the lack of direct milling options would kill it for me, as I see the cross bolt direct mill design that eliminates the plate and vertical mounted screws as a positive. Putting a cross bolt on top of a plate with vertical mounted screws seems to miss an advantage of that mounting system, though you do get enclosed emitter. I'll still watch it until release and see how it develops.

[cornstalker]

I see the evolution of closed emitters sparking a conversation. Closed emitter .vs LPVO on defensive handgun. :rolleyes:

[RJ]

I don’t have the patience to watch video stuff like this, I’m a reader. I’ll wait for the written recaps.

I made it most of the way.

00:00 - 01:30 - Various BS

01:30 - 09:00 - Review of history of Swampfox products, up till "Liberty" and "Justice". No new information.

09:00 - 11:30 - Brief discussion of "Sentinel A" and "Sentinel M" MRDSs for G43X/48/RMSc footprint. A = Automatic brightness. M = Manual brightness. (Apparently you have to buy either an "M" type optic or an "A" type optic, you can't have both A and M in the same optic.) Bottom loading 2032 battery. Must remove optic to replace battery.

11:30 - 15:00 - Liberator "2". Increased battery life.

15:23 - 28:00 Kraken - Closed emitter 1632 battery side load. "RMR Sized" footprint. Various Plate options. Tempered glass instead of plate glass. It's "a little chunky" (@ 24:08). 1 MOA dot with tactile clicks. Has a side clamp, sits a little bit taller. Can order with five different plates.

28:00 - Fin : Wrap up/summary/Flash sale (this is expired now of course.)

[vcdgrips]

Thank you for doing that RJ!

Any transparency re country of origin on the new closed emitter red dot?

[CCT125US]

I hereby award RJ 34 internets for saving me that many minutes of my life!

[RJ]

15:23 - 28:00 Kraken - Closed emitter 1632 battery side load. "RMR Sized" footprint. Various Plate options. Tempered glass instead of plate glass. It's "a little chunky" (@ 24:08). 1 MOA dot with tactile clicks.



Apologies: I think what was said was the adjustments were tactile, with a ‘click’ every 1 MOA, not the dot was 1 MOA.

[RJ]

Any transparency re country of origin on the new closed emitter red dot?

Not that I heard, but I played it at 1.75 speed.

[NoTacTravis]

... And is it just me, but why does it look so HUGE?

I think that's mainly the nature of it being an enclosed emitter optic? From what I see the open emitter is typically the window style we're used to seeing mounted on a pistol slide and closed emitter is the bigger box/tube style. Pics below are of closed emitter offerings from Holosun and Acro that seem to be about the same size/shape of the swamp fox optic body.


https://d3apgz7jqdnp73.cloudfront.net/media/2112571/holosun-1.jpg?preset=list720
Above is the Holosun version. I think it's just the nature of closed emitter dots?

Acro version:
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/review-aimpoint-acro/329540#editorial-gallery

[vcdgrips]

No RJ it is not you. I would bet you a 9.99 taco plate lunch that it is bigger than either the Holosun or the Acro.

As both those dimensions are widely available, one could have measured the SF offering if one was so inclined to make such a comparison.

I freely acknowledge that I am making a WAG based more on human nature re sales/marketing etc. than anything more scientific like trying to figure out high the rear sight or some other dimension on the gun is and extrapolating from there.

As per a chat with SF today, it, like all SF red dot optics are made in China.

[jeep45238]

I think that's mainly the nature of it being an enclosed emitter optic? From what I see the open emitter is typically the window style we're used to seeing mounted on a pistol slide and closed emitter is the bigger box/tube style. Pics below are of closed emitter offerings from Holosun and Acro that seem to be about the same size/shape of the swamp fox optic body.


https://d3apgz7jqdnp73.cloudfront.net/media/2112571/holosun-1.jpg?preset=list720
Above is the Holosun version. I think it's just the nature of closed emitter dots?

Acro version:
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/review-aimpoint-acro/329540#editorial-gallery

It's the nature of the beast. Taking the height of the front lens, and making it the same height at the rear, gets you a visual perspective of a giant freaking optic. To seal off the led, and get away from environmental issues, that's way, way, way worth the offset.


I do have 407 and 507 equipped pistols currently, with a 509 on order. I'll make some comparison pics when things roll in.

[mmc45414]

Not that I heard, but I played it at 1.75 speed.I tend to do same, or cast things up to the TV while i cook or something.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[RJ]

I think that's mainly the nature of it being an enclosed emitter optic? From what I see the open emitter is typically the window style we're used to seeing mounted on a pistol slide and closed emitter is the bigger box/tube style. Pics below are of closed emitter offerings from Holosun and Acro that seem to be about the same size/shape of the swamp fox optic body.


https://d3apgz7jqdnp73.cloudfront.net/media/2112571/holosun-1.jpg?preset=list720
Above is the Holosun version. I think it's just the nature of closed emitter dots?

Acro version:
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/review-aimpoint-acro/329540#editorial-gallery

Could be. Dimensions of the HS 507c v2 and 509T for comparison show the closed emitter HS is in fact taller, 1.35” vs 1.14”.

(Pictures clipped from HS website)

68088

68089

[Darth_Uno]

I just purchased (on Reddit [gag, but the GAFS thread has good deals]) another Blade for one of my rifles. I continue to be very impressed with the Blade, and the reticle allows for somewhat more precise shooting at longer distances vs a red dot. My eyes just turn a dot into a cluster that obscures smaller targets.

You all know I'm not a "just as good as" or "good enough for me" type - but it is good enough for what I do and then some in spades. I have several MRO's but I've got to the point that I just like the Blade better. And by "like" I mean I prefer to shoot with it. A debate on how bomb-proof one or the other is can be for a different day; I'll likely never need to know.

[backtrail540]

My buddy grabbed a justice (The wider one) and i helped him mount it to his vcomp and got it zeroed(ish) today. The range was a mucky mire of death from the melting snow turning to mud and standing water but i ran a single bill from the ready just to see how the dot tracked.


https://youtu.be/GN0XRilaDE0

68153
The hits in the 10 ring were from getting a rough zero. The 5 above and 1 below were from the bill. It was hard enough not sinking in a mud hole, i hope to get some more time with it to run it harder and refine the zero a but more if necessary.

68154

68155

Initial impressions are that the dot did not distort, buttons were nice and positive, and it had clear glass. Trouble free adjusting the zero despite the lack of clicks in the dials.

This example will probably not see high round counts nor live on a reciprocating slide, but between this and another friends sentinel, i will be snagging a sf when i need another dot in the price range.

I'll post updates as he and i get to shoot it more.

[Crusader8207]

Added a Liberty to my collection of red dots. So far I like what I see. I mounted it to my 320X Compact that was originally milled for the Romeo 1 Pro then I had it milled to accept an RMR. Decided to give the Liberty a shot. I love the size of the window compared to the RMR, also it is a top load battery (1632) so It doesn't need to be removed from the gun for battery change. I find the dot to be crisp (I have an astigmatism). The only think I don't like is there is a small gap between the back of the optic and where the rear sight is mounted. Very minor issue.

68244

68245

[stomridertx]

I just swapped out the OEM MOS plate for a CHPWS V4 Mil/LEO RMR plate on my Liberty equipped G19. It was a TIGHT fit. So much so that I actually had to take a huge deep breath and gulp to do a little filing at the front to get the optic to snap into place with a light rubber mallet tap. That's not a complaint, I like that it's in there that tight. I figure the plate is affordable enough that a little filing to fit this optic was worth it. The included screws labeled RMR were the right size to attach it, however, I was running the Ironsides shield before and I need longer screws to make that work. The T-posts take a smaller diameter screw than the OEM plate, so the Swampfox provided screws are too fat. Honestly though, I like it better this way by a huge margin. I get a perfect height on the rear iron sight with it like this. I may forgo ordering screws and just try extra hard not to Cowan this thing on the concrete.
70002

[davisj]

Sage Dynamics review of the Justice


https://youtu.be/JRIuJaV_CIY

[cornstalker]

Sage Dynamics review of the Justice


https://youtu.be/JRIuJaV_CIY

I rather expected at least a mention of the Ironsides shield in the drop tests. If it happened, I missed it.

[HeavyDuty]

Sage Dynamics review of the Justice


https://youtu.be/JRIuJaV_CIY

I never have the time or patience for video reviews of anything. If anyone can provide a simple recap, I’d be very appreciative.

[backtrail540]

I never have the time or patience for video reviews of anything. If anyone can provide a simple recap, I’d be very appreciative.

Lense cracked during drop test but it still functioned and maintained zero. He wouldn't carry it on duty.

[HeavyDuty]

Lense cracked during drop test but it still functioned and maintained zero. He wouldn't carry it on duty.

Thank you!

[Rex G]

Sage Dynamics’ drop tests are truly brutal. Anything that survives his testing should last me for a lifetime.

It is not that I am defending this, or any other Swampfox product. I am committed to the Aimpoint ACRO P-1, with a milled slide that already has an ACRO, and a second ACRO that I later acquired, still awaiting its permanent placement on a weapon. (We stopped going to ranges, when COVID came along, stopping all sighting-in and T&E.)

[stomridertx]

Lense cracked during drop test but it still functioned and maintained zero. He wouldn't carry it on duty.

It's a little too truncated of a summary. He did 4 drop tests and 2000 rounds. On the first, there was a slight delamination crack in the top of the window similar to what happened when he tested the Holosun 507c. Zero was maintained. On the next 2 drops, no further cracking of the glass occurred and zero was maintained. On the fourth and final drop, the glass finally cracked top to bottom, but the glass stayed in the housing, dot was still useable, and zero maintained. He said he wouldn't carry it in a duty capacity but thinks it's fine as a concealed carry optic.
I was baffled because it outperformed the DPP in his previous tests. He also tested it without the steel ironsides shroud to make it a better comparison to optics without one. For some reason I don't understand, in follow up comments he was very negative about them offering the ironsides in the first place.

[HCM]

It's a little too truncated of a summary. He did 4 drop tests and 2000 rounds. On the first, there was a slight delamination crack in the top of the window similar to what happened when he tested the Holosun 507c. Zero was maintained. On the next 2 drops, no further cracking of the glass occurred and zero was maintained. On the fourth and final drop, the glass finally cracked top to bottom, but the glass stayed in the housing, dot was still useable, and zero maintained. He said he wouldn't carry it in a duty capacity but thinks it's fine as a concealed carry optic.
I was baffled because it outperformed the DPP in his previous tests. He also tested it without the steel ironsides shroud to make it a better comparison to optics without one. For some reason I don't understand, in follow up comments he was very negative about them offering the ironsides in the first place.

He doesn’t believe shrouds - whether from SIG, Swap fox, or Whomever, make any real difference in drip or crush durability.

[GearFondler]

He doesn’t believe shrouds - whether from SIG, Swap fox, or Whomever, make any real difference in drip or crush durability.Well that's an odd stance to take.... What is his rationale behind that belief? I have a hard time believing a well designed shroud would not help absorb impact forces.

[HCM]

Well that's an odd stance to take.... What is his rationale behind that belief? I have a hard time believing a well designed shroud would not help absorb impact forces.

It's based on his experiences testing optics and what his students, particularly LE students carrying RDS pistols have reported. Details are in his white paper.

Data > belief.

https://1312bba5-e7e7-76e8-1fca-a01bfd3a0b6e.filesusr.com/ugd/7dc128_65844d9baead41afab8bfabb23e912fa.pdf

My agency is requiring shrouds for those using the SIG Romeo1 Pro so not everyone agrees with him. However, "impact" is not the only failure mechanism. Cowan has documented several non-RMR optics on holstered pistols crushed during fights with suspects including some R1P's with the shroud.

[GearFondler]

It's based on his experiences testing optics and what his students, particularly LE students carrying RDS pistols have reported. Details are in his white paper.

Data > belief.

https://1312bba5-e7e7-76e8-1fca-a01bfd3a0b6e.filesusr.com/ugd/7dc128_65844d9baead41afab8bfabb23e912fa.pdf

My agency is requiring shrouds for those using the SIG Romeo1 Pro so not everyone agrees with him. However, "impact" is not the only failure mechanism. Cowan has documented several non-RMR optics on holstered pistols crushed during fights with suspects including some R1P's with the shroud.Good enough... I haven't read his white paper but I really respect his opinion and his approach. And if he's seen the failures then he has a justified opinion.
My retort however would be in my original statement... "a well designed shroud". If the current shrouds do not properly protect the optic then it's design failure, not a concept failure.
That being said, a shroud is an extra point of failure and increases the size, so the better solution is a drop-proof main housing.

[Lon]

I’ve got a Swampfox Justice with the shroud. I like it but it won’t work in Safariland duty holsters, at least the 6354DO, with the shroud on. Makes the RDS too wide.

[SoCalDep]

He doesn’t believe shrouds - whether from SIG, Swap fox, or Whomever, make any real difference in drip or crush durability.

Or Leupold... I suppose based on my experience he’s right. That “non-duty worthy” SRO did better on our drops than the DeltaPoint Pro did with that steel shroud.

[HCM]

Or Leupold... I suppose based on my experience he’s right. That “non-duty worthy” SRO did better on our drops than the DeltaPoint Pro did with that steel shroud.

I’d be cushions how many “crush” failure involve plainclothes type holsters vs duty type.

[SoCalDep]

I’d be cushions how many “crush” failure involve plainclothes type holsters vs duty type.

I’d be curious to know all about them. I wouldn’t be surprised they can happen, but with details I can test and attempt to replicate. Without they are allegations.

[SoCalDep]

I’d be cushions how many “crush” failure involve plainclothes type holsters vs duty type.

I’d be curious to know all about them. I wouldn’t be surprised they can happen, but with details I can test and attempt to replicate. Without they are allegations.

[HCM]

I’d be curious to know all about them. I wouldn’t be surprised they can happen, but with details I can test and attempt to replicate. Without they are allegations.

Calen mentioned one occurring as the officer rolled around on the ground with a suspect and another resulted from an officer and suspect struggling and knocking a holstered pistol into the side of a concrete Jersey barrier.

[evi1joe]

For a guy who "doesn't believe in shrouds," he had no problem testing out the CHPWS polymer "defender" shroud for the Holosun.

I mean, technically it's a mounting plate AND a shroud, but it's still polymer.

NOTE: The "Defender" broke in the testing and he said that was okay because he considered it a "sacrificial" protection thingy.

[stomridertx]

A guy stepped up to the plate to test the Ironsides in a drop test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOjRjAF77aU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMzuMH1jMXA
My takeaway is that the shroud will keep the optic safe for one hard impact. But, it should be immediately replaced because the closer it deforms to touching the optic, it might actually transfer MORE force.
Considering even the Holosun titanium models are delaminating even a little on drops, Trijicon just flat out has everyone by the balls with their patent and the shroud is about the only other way to maybe protect the optic.
I like my Liberty better without the shroud, and to me it's about the same in durability as the Holosun 507c. The Trijicon RMR will probably reign supreme as a patrol duty optic. The Liberty and Justice have a clearer window, are supremely affordable, and durable enough in my mind to be a viable choice.
Something to note, when I changed to the CHPWS plate and took the Ironsides off, I had a very significant elevation shift in my zero. I had to make a large adjustment just from optic being a tiny amount closer to the plate.

[HCM]

For a guy who "doesn't believe in shrouds," he had no problem testing out the CHPWS polymer "defender" shroud for the Holosun.

I mean, technically it's a mounting plate AND a shroud, but it's still polymer.

NOTE: The "Defender" broke in the testing and he said that was okay because he considered it a "sacrificial" protection thingy.

Metal deforms and stays that way. Plastic tends to deform and return to it's original shape.

Early polymer housing MRDS like the Doctor, while fragile, tolerated G forces on slides very well, better than early metal body MRDS. It's definitely worth exploring for industry.

[stomridertx]

Sage Dynamics Sentinel Video

https://youtu.be/KaRwwdvs-Kg

[Xhado]

For a guy who "doesn't believe in shrouds," he had no problem testing out the CHPWS polymer "defender" shroud for the Holosun.

I mean, technically it's a mounting plate AND a shroud, but it's still polymer.

NOTE: The "Defender" broke in the testing and he said that was okay because he considered it a "sacrificial" protection thingy.

Completely different use/concept.

The defender is designed to protect the lens from front impacts, such as racking the slide off the optic. It's not a shroud to reduce drop damage.

[JWH]

As a datapoint on battery life, I purchased one of the mid-September justices based on recommendations in this thread. I started carrying it early November. The included Malak branded battery was dead this past Friday afternoon. A new energizer was installed yesterday evening and everything looks good. The large thin o-ring was pinched during the initial install and came apart when I removed the battery door. I am impressed with how securely the battery is retained within the optic. Carry was 6-8 hrs/day at full brightness for the first month, then 3 clicks down after that.

I purchased a second justice on new-years and plan to mount it on the carry handle of my AR using the trijicon mount.

I woke up this morning to a dead dot. I replaced the battery with a Eunicell branded cell that came with my second justice, and it appears to be good to go. Has anyone else been tracking battery life?

[Archer1440]

Metal deforms and stays that way. Plastic tends to deform and return to it's original shape.

Early polymer housing MRDS like the Doctor, while fragile, tolerated G forces on slides very well, better than early metal body MRDS. It's definitely worth exploring for industry.

You need the total package- a polymer housing and/or lens alone is not enough.

In my indirect experience (several friends carrying them) the all-plastic Romeo Zero is, to borrow a particularly pithy phrase which, as far as I am aware, originated with a respected member of this forum, a Wretched, Pulsating Ball of Suck and Fail.

I think a polymer housing puts significantly greater demands on the internals of the optic, particularly PCB’s and adjustment hardware.

[skandar]

You need the total package- a polymer housing and/or lens alone is not enough.

In my indirect experience (several friends carrying them) the all-plastic Romeo Zero is, to borrow a particularly pithy phrase which, as far as I am aware, originated with a respected member of this forum, a Wretched, Pulsating Ball of Suck and Fail.

I think a polymer housing puts significantly greater demands on the internals of the optic, particularly PCB’s and adjustment hardware.

So maybe an integral but replaceable polymer shroud around a metal body? Allows the polymer to deform absorbing and distributing impact around the inner metal body?

[orionz06]

So maybe an integral but replaceable polymer shroud around a metal body? Allows the polymer to deform absorbing and distributing impact around the inner metal body?

You'd be getting too large at that point. I'm also not sure how much absorption a plastic shroud would offer for these drop "tests", at least with the envelope things have to fit into.

[skandar]

You'd be getting too large at that point. I'm also not sure how much absorption a plastic shroud would offer for these drop "tests", at least with the envelope things have to fit into.

I'm thinking more of a laminated or little to no air gap structure. The deflection of the polymer may not even be a visible thing, but more a materials compression issue, sort of like early laminate armors. But...I'm not an engineer.

[evi1joe]

Completely different use/concept.
The defender is designed to protect the lens from front impacts, such as racking the slide off the optic. It's not a shroud to reduce drop damage.

His defender (like the two Swampfox optics) broke on the drop test, but the defender and Swampfox all easily survived the racking the slide off the optic.
I feel like if he's gonna call the defender a sacrificial protector that helped absorb shock on the drop test (since that's when it got "sacrificed"), then the metal shroud could easily be considered the same exact thing.

TOE-MAY-TOE, TUH-MAH-TOE.

[HeavyDuty]

It sounds like the closed emitter Kraken is delayed until the end of the year.

[awp_101]

So it’s been over a year with no updates. Is everyone happy with theirs or did they crash and burn so bad it’s not worth updating the thread?

I’m looking at dots for a couple of Ruger MKIVs and these came up in the ~$200 range.

[ViniVidivici]

I'm happy with mine.

Justice, on a G19 build. It's been solid, just crossed 700 rounds with it, various drills and training evolutions, day and night, 0-50 yards, wierd positions, all of it.

Been knocked around outdoors, out shooting/training in a couple of rainstorms, carried daily quite a bit.

Too soon to tell on battery life, still on original.

Holds zero, nice and bright in day, low levels are great for shooting at night, glass is good and clear. I think it's solid, very pleased with it.

Fun fact: a friend of mine bought one used, dirt cheap. Had a scratch on the lense. He contacted their warranty dept., they had him send it in, and sent him a brand new one, no charge. That is amazing.

So now they have 2 customers for life. Swampfox kicks ass.

[TCinVA]

So it’s been over a year with no updates. Is everyone happy with theirs or did they crash and burn so bad it’s not worth updating the thread?

I’m looking at dots for a couple of Ruger MKIVs and these came up in the ~$200 range.

The optics I bought are still running. I have multiple Arrowhead optics on carbines that are running fine. No complaints.

I have multiple Justice optics, one on a 1301 and one running on an M&P. The one currently on the M&P has been mounted on multiple guns without problem.

I've seen a couple of issues with client-purchased Sentinel optics.

- A client purchased multiple green-dot version Sentinel optics that had significant optical distortion in the lens. It was creating enough distortion that even when I shot her guns I found myself closing my left eye to shoot. She exchanged them for red dot equipped Sentinel optics.

- The glass in one of her green-dot Sentinel optics came loose of the optic housing during firing. The bottom of the lens protruded out the front of the optic housing. She's getting that replaced with a red dot version.

I have one more Justice currently not mounted on anything. It's likely going to get mounted on my Ruger MKII.

[awp_101]

Thanks, I'll keep them on my list to consider.

[msstate56]

I’ve run a justice on a S&W 686 for several hundred rounds of Grizzly CC 180 grain. It now rides on my Benelli 12ga turkey gun, and has held up to a 100 or so 3” and 3.5” magnum turkey loads.

[dtw]

For those of you that have a Justice, how is the dot brightness? Considering one for a competition pistol , and would like to know how well the dot shows up on a very bright day.

A couple of the YT vids have said that it's a factor, but not huge.

Anyone care to comment?

Thanks.

[stomridertx]

For those of you that have a Justice, how is the dot brightness? Considering one for a competition pistol , and would like to know how well the dot shows up on a very bright day.

A couple of the YT vids have said that it's a factor, but not huge.

Anyone care to comment?

Thanks.

I used to run both the Justice and Liberty and I had no complaints on brightness or glass clarity. I sold them and moved on to the duty grade Holosun optics (509t x2 and 508t x2), but I was pleased with the shooting performance of the Swampfox dots and I had no issues with durability during regular shooting. The friend I sold them to hasn't reported any issues in his use of them. I live in the Texas panhandle and we definitely have very bright sunny days in the summer.

[ViniVidivici]

Absolutely bright, bright enough for the brightest summer days we had this year.

I've checked it also on a bright sunny day, against white background and concrete below, it's good to go.

[Sasage]

Just ordered the Sentinel Manual brightness/ Shake n wake version - Red, eager to try it out on my Shield Plus.

[BillSWPA]

For those of you that have a Justice, how is the dot brightness? Considering one for a competition pistol , and would like to know how well the dot shows up on a very bright day.

A couple of the YT vids have said that it's a factor, but not huge.

Anyone care to comment?

Thanks.

I have the Liberty, which is similar to the Justice. Mine is mounted on a Nelson Precision slide for a Glock 44. I find that in bright sunlight, I have to turn the brightness all the way up. At this setting, I was able to use the dot without a problem.

[ViniVidivici]

I've now discovered a feature, the low battery indicator.

When you change brightness settings, if you see a flicker, that is the low battery indicator, and it'll give you about 4 more days of daily carry beyond that point.

[claymore504]

Been running a Justice (red dot) on a CZ P09 for a couple years now and it has been perfect. No issues and the dot can be plenty bright enough to see on a sunny day.

[iWander]

Been running a Justice (red dot) on a CZ P09 for a couple years now and it has been perfect. No issues and the dot can be plenty bright enough to see on a sunny day.Thanks for the info. Is the CZ a carry gun or range toy? I want to put a RDS on my Henry BB and more the wide FOV on the Justice. Do you use the shroud as well?

[zaitcev]

So, what's the verdict on Kraken at the start of 2023? Reviews at retail sites are full of complainers - mostly pieces breaking off or lenses popping.

I'm asking in comparison to Acro P2, Holosun HE509T, and Steiner MPS.

[stomridertx]

So, what's the verdict on Kraken at the start of 2023? Reviews at retail sites are full of complainers - mostly pieces breaking off or lenses popping.

I'm asking in comparison to Acro P2, Holosun HE509T, and Steiner MPS.

I feel like even with this optic Swampfox is chasing instead of leading. I can't logically pick the Kraken when the Holosun 509T exists. They overcompensated with an overly chunky optic in order to pass the Sage Dynamics drop test, only for him to ignore it and not test it at all. Their emitter is not as efficient as Holosun's because Holosun won't sell that tech to their competitors. The Acro P2 is an outstanding optic and Aimpoint is the pinnacle of quality, but I still prefer the Holosun 509T over it. Holosun's pure focus on LED emitter optics, lasers, and lighting is working in their favor as they are aren't concerned with maintaining traditional scope product lines and focus all of their R&D energy in this category. It seems they are winning. I think the reason a lot of the bigger scope companies like Vortex don't have competitive pistol optics is simply them conceding a large chunk of the red dot market and focusing on what Holosun doesn't compete at.

[G19Fan]

I feel like even with this optic Swampfox is chasing instead of leading. I can't logically pick the Kraken when the Holosun 509T exists. They overcompensated with an overly chunky optic in order to pass the Sage Dynamics drop test, only for him to ignore it and not test it at all. Their emitter is not as efficient as Holosun's because Holosun won't sell that tech to their competitors. The Acro P2 is an outstanding optic and Aimpoint is the pinnacle of quality, but I still prefer the Holosun 509T over it. Holosun's pure focus on LED emitter optics, lasers, and lighting is working in their favor as they are aren't concerned with maintaining traditional scope product lines and focus all of their R&D energy in this category. It seems they are winning. I think the reason a lot of the bigger scope companies like Vortex don't have competitive pistol optics is simply them conceding a large chunk of the red dot market and focusing on what Holosun doesn't compete at.

Agreed to almost all of the above but if I am not mistaken holosun does make the emitter. Just a lower level version

[stomridertx]

Agreed to almost all of the above but if I am not mistaken holosun does make the emitter. Just a lower level version
There used to be a Swampfox industry forum on arfcom where Mike (a Swampfox rep, who is on this forum as well) explicitly stated that Holosun won't sell their emitters to them.

[ViniVidivici]

Yeah that subforum got shitcanned for some reason, don't know why.

I will say as much as happy as I am with the performance of my Justice and Liberty, it seems, academically at least, they've missed the boat on the Kracken, in some ways.

[G19Fan]

There used to be a Swampfox industry forum on arfcom where Mike (a Swampfox rep, who is on this forum as well) explicitly stated that Holosun won't sell their emitters to them.

Ah thanks. Good to know

[HY07]

They are great for what they are. Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to outfit everything you build with a 3000 piece of glass.

[ViniVidivici]

As the world turns...

Only issue so far with the Justice is battery life. The Chinesium that came with it, then a Panasonic, and now a Duracell that just showed low batt indicator today, each go 4 months.

When the indicator shows (a slight flicker when changing settings, this was confirmed through email with the company, not sure why it's not in the manual) you have about 5 days left.

Now, this is carrying it 6-7 days a week, pretty much 10-12 hrs a day, mostly on setting 8, probably 30% on 10.

Shake awake, so off at night.

Hoping Energizer will last longer. Are they known to be better? I've heard some scuttlebutt about Duracell going down in quality lately.

[ViniVidivici]

On second thought, I've probably had it in setting 10 about 50% of that time.

[Joe in PNG]

Got a Sentinel for my Sheld plus, and it will need a Ade shim to get the angle right. Other than that, it should make the thing the thing.

[stomridertx]

Swing and a miss. https://www.swampfoxoptics.com/sentinel-ii-micro-red-dot
They were kind of an exciting company in the beginning, but there is some kind of disconnect here. The optic window overhanging like the SRO or new RMR makes no sense if the battery loads from the bottom. Oh, and the battery loads from the bottom on a new optic in 2023.

[TCinVA]

Swing and a miss. https://www.swampfoxoptics.com/sentinel-ii-micro-red-dot
They were kind of an exciting company in the beginning, but there is some kind of disconnect here.

Personnel changes and a drop in customer service and quality control seem to have taken their toll. I've seen more issues with their optics lately and the support which used to be ace has dropped off hard. I'm unlikely to buy from them again.

[DMF13]

Oh, and the battery loads from the bottom on a new optic in 2023.
111425

[Lon]

Personnel changes and a drop in customer service and quality control seem to have taken their toll. I've seen more issues with their optics lately and the support which used to be ace has dropped off hard. I'm unlikely to buy from them again.

That’s too bad. I like the 2 I own.

[ViniVidivici]

Battery life update, Swampfox Justice:

Installed Duracell on 08/03/23, died on 01/05/24.

This was same routine of 6-7 days a week, 12-14 hrs/ day.

Difference here: was on setting 8 almost the whole time (80-90%). So on setting 8, I get 5 months use, and it was 10 days from low indicator to off, rather than usual 8.

I di find it oddly coincidental that these are all lasting right to the month, whether it be 4 (80% on lvl 10) or 5 (80% on lvl 8), not a month and a half, or month & 10 days, but within a day or three of full months.

[Aray]

I recently had occasion to use SF Customer Service. TL/DR they replaced 2 Liberty optics quickly and painlessly.

A few months ago, I accidentally dropped an M&P with a Liberty on it from waist level on to vinyl tile over plywood flooring, and the liberty went dark. No obvious physical damage, I replaced the battery to no avail. I then removed a Liberty from my CROM equipped Marlin 1894 and planned to mount it to the M&P. It was also dark, but not shocking since it has been ignored on the lever gun for a couple of years. I replaced the battery, and it also stayed dark. I submitted RMA requests to SF in early December for both, they approved them and replaced both with new within 2 weeks of sending them back.

CS was fine.

[ViniVidivici]

Oh yeah, their CS is top notch. Seen a guy buy a used one, had a scratch on the lense, they replaced it free, no questions asked. Pretty cool of them.

[BillSWPA]

Swing and a miss. https://www.swampfoxoptics.com/sentinel-ii-micro-red-dot
They were kind of an exciting company in the beginning, but there is some kind of disconnect here. The optic window overhanging like the SRO or new RMR makes no sense if the battery loads from the bottom. Oh, and the battery loads from the bottom on a new optic in 2023.

Disappointing. The original Sentinel would have been a top contender if I needed an optic for a K footprint. Everything I liked about the original appears to be gone.